God's Will

[Redheat]

In many political discussions the idea, thought, excuse ............of "God's Will" comes up. What exactly is God's will? and who determines it to be his will?

Bush says he went into Iraq because it was God's will..........Was it God's will that we were attacked? Was it God's will that Saddam rule? How does one determine which action is by the will of God and which is by the will of man?

The Pope has recently spoke out against abortion and people being kept alive by machines in Catholic hospitals. He speaks for God, and for God's will but when does it stop being the will of God and start being the will of the Pope? or are we supposed to assume they are one in the same?

First the issue of keeping people alive by machines. These people would die if it weren't for the machines of man. So in forcing families to keep them alive on the machines wouldn't that be going against the will of God? Or is the will of God to keep them in a state where they have no quality of life? Wouldn't it be better for them to join God rather then lie in a state that neither allowed them to live in the world created by God nor pass over to his heaven?

Abortion- The Church is thinking of disallowing communion for Pro-Choice supporters. Now is the will of God to get the church involved in Politics? To be part of an election? Not to mention that a womans choice to have an abortion is between her and her God, where do the rest of us come in? Or does God's will cease in with any issue some disagree with?

Speaking of the Pope, was it God's will that thousands of young children have their lives destroyed by the very people who were supposed to be the voice of God? Was it God's will to cover up crimes against humanity, against the church and against God? If the church speaks for the will of God why would they protect the men who betrayed that word? Was it God's will that these kids get molested? Is it God's will that the Church speak out against abortion to protect life while at the same time ignoring the very lives some in the church were destroying?

Then there is Jesus V. God. Jesus would not have gone into Iraq. Jesus was a pacifist, "turn the other cheek", "do onto others" none of his teachings would suggest that invasion and killing of innocents would be preferred to peace. So who's right? Is God leading us in Iraq or is Jesus? If God is leading us in Iraq then where does that leave Jesus?

Maybe you can understand my confusion. When does the will of God stop being her will and starts being the will of the person claiming something in her name? Who gets to decide? If my God tells me that invasion is wrong, then how is it that my God is wrong but the God that told us to go in is right?

So when someone tells me it's "Gods Will", I can't help but ask "is it?" or is it your will and what right have you to speak your will through the name of God?

[USA-1]

Maybe there really isn't a god. He only exists in the mind of man.

[cpwill]

God's Will?


lol, sometimes it's a B**** to figure out.....

[Kana]

'gods will' or 'the kami decree it' or 'in the name of allah' or a million other religious catch-phrases are among the greatest roots of evil throughout history. what, pray tell, has caused more death and suffering... than religion?

[cpwill]

i dunno, i'd guess "human nature" in general

desire for power.

perhaps greed.

[Thermopylae]

I can't believe anyone would suggest that 'machines' shouldn't be used to keep people alive. That is, infact, one of the vile things I have heard in my entire life, coming from one of the most savage of men on the planet who represents one of the most dark, not black, but a deep blood red, organizations in the history of mankind. This statement coming from the same person who supports the continuation of Sadaam Hussein's regime. What more?

[mataj]

In many political discussions the idea, thought, excuse ............of "God's Will" comes up. What exactly is God's will? and who determines it to be his will?Whoever needs an argument without argumentation, for example Bush, Pope, Hitler, and each and every king, emperor, and monarch in human history.

In a way, you already answered your question yourself.

[cpwill]

those darn machines, keeping people alive..... like those stupid lasers they use for surgery, and those daggum defribulater-thingy's they used to restart my uncles heart.... dangit, he should be dead..... not to mention all those premature babies who we know should be taken out of the artificial containments that keep them alive, sorta like the evil machine they used to evaporate the water in my lungs when i was born so i could breathe......oops, i guess i should be dead:)

[Kana]

ive nothing against using machines to keep people alive, thats for sure.
my mother is currently only alive due to those same damn defribulaterishicals. blah.

yes - human nature kills people, and human nature uses religion as an excuse to kill people. marx said 'religion is the opiate of the masses.'
this is true. i add,
'religion is the guillotine of the big man.'

[Ronnieraygun]

No mortal man can truly know what God's will is. I don't think it's God's will for us to kill one another, but at the same time, I don't think it's God's will that 9/11 happened, and I don't think he would expect us to just turn the other cheek.

[Albert]

The Expression “God will” assumes a God who has a specific plan for us and by which we are simply players on a very large chessboard. I prefer the concept of a “God’s path” a way to live so as to realize our God-given potential.

[Thermopylae]

I don't think quoting the source of communism and socialism is a great way to earn credibility.

[Different]

I beleive God is just man's hope for something better than life, that lasts forever. Therefore I do not beleive in God's will, and feel that the Pope, Bush, or any other that uses God's will as an excuse is interpretting stomach pains wrong. But then again, I'm a no-good atheist.

[Kana]

I don't think quoting the source of communism and socialism is a great way to earn credibility.
i dont believe assaulting marx is an educated stance. want more quotes?
'i am not a marxist'
'we are not ready for communism.'
he had an idea, decided it wouldnt work - and he was smart enough to realize he didnt have all the answers he hoped to provide.
although, if you read the communist manifesto, you may realize that none of these supposedly 'communist' nations followed the idea. if you dont, im willing to say with absolute certainty, that you didnt understand the text.

[DeathMonkey]

I was cut out of God's Will.

[cpwill]

:confused: don't think that becauase marx said that the west wasn't ready for communism yet he didn't believe in his own theory.

i suggest you read the text in the light of full development of capital and in particular industry, as well as the necessary steps that a socialist government must go through after the revolution to become communist; it's not as simple as rising up and over throwing da massa (at least, according to marx, engles was a bit more hopeful).

[Redheat]

I can't believe anyone would suggest that 'machines' shouldn't be used to keep people alive. That is, infact, one of the vile things I have heard in my entire life, coming from one of the most savage of men on the planet who represents one of the most dark, not black, but a deep blood red, organizations in the history of mankind. This statement coming from the same person who supports the continuation of Sadaam Hussein's regime. What more?

:confused: WOW my point went WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY over your head. Where did you get that I was advocating taking people off machines? My point was if the Pope claims it's wrong to let someone die even if they have a living will, but to keep them alive seems to be against the will of God. If God hadn't wanted them to die why would they be there in the first place? So who's will are we advocating? :lol: :lol: I've never seen a posting so far out of context of the point.


Well until I read this

don't think quoting the source of communism and socialism is a great way to earn credibility.


I was hoping for something a little deeper, Albert came the closest.

My point was trying to elicit what and who could speak of God's will. I see no one addressed the Jesus issue.
Thanks for the responses though. :)

[cpwill]

who can speak God's will?

oh good, you're way easier than hammer:

God can.:)

[Redheat]

who can speak God's will?

oh good, you're way easier than hammer:

God can.:)

:confused:

Ah kinda my point! Since we don't see or hear God, someone claiming to be doing God's will is what? lying? living in an alternate universe? confused?

[DeathMonkey]

I want someone to comment on my other funny yet poigniant post, dammit. I work hard for you people. Holla at yer boy.


Since God's Will will be done regardless of our intent, anyone saying that "God's Will" is guiding them is redundant, and an indication that they are either crazy or manipulative. The true follower knows that ALL is God's Will, and therefore acts need not be justified to the infidel. Insh'Allah!

[DMann]

do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.


i like that one...it's ornery and you don't have to answer to anyone but yourself

[hzjoy]

You will never know the Will of God until you know God... It's that simple.

[MikeD4o7]

You will never know the Will of God until you know God... It's that simple.

I used to go to his house every sunday... but he was never there ;)

[Simon666]

The Pope has recently spoke out against abortion and people being kept alive by machines in Catholic hospitals.
That's a new one to me, can you back that one up?


This statement coming from the same person who supports the continuation of Sadaam Hussein's regime.
You mean spoke up against the killing of tens of thousands of people.

[cpwill]

:confused:

Ah kinda my point! Since we don't see or hear God,

actually, we can.

someone claiming to be doing God's will is what? lying? living in an alternate universe? confused?

or possibly telling the truth.

Since God's Will will be done regardless of our intent, anyone saying that "God's Will" is guiding them is redundant, and an indication that they are either crazy or manipulative. The true follower knows that ALL is God's Will, and therefore acts need not be justified to the infidel. Insh'Allah!

ah, so you are a predestinationalist?

[MikeD4o7]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redheat


Ah kinda my point! Since we don't see or hear God,


actually, we can.


I can't.

[Simon666]

actually, we can.
If you hear voices or see spirits, I recommend a visit to a psychiatric institution.

[DMann]

If you hear voices or see spirits, I recommend a visit to a psychiatric institution.

and we'll have to confiscate whatever you've been taking...for scientific purposes :thumbsup:

[Simon666]

I was being serious. Cpwill already noted once God has made him do stuff that he didn't want to do, I've been trying to find back the post but get too many hits about God to find it back fast. It reminds of serial killers saying they didn't want to kill but the voice(s) inside their head told them to.

[Simon666]

Found it: (http://www.whistlestopper.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13122#post13122)

i thought about this too, but God has had me do things in the past that i most certainly did not want to do, as well as things that i never would have thought of. the idea that all of this, therefore, is simply springing from my uncoscious is untrue because some of it is stuff that does not exist within my unconscious.

[DMann]

I was being serious. Cpwill already noted once God has made him do stuff that he didn't want to do, I've been trying to find back the post but get too many hits about God to find it back fast. It reminds of serial killers saying they didn't want to kill but the voice(s) inside their head told them to.

I didn't know that. I doubt CP is on the road to mass murder...maybe after his birthday...

[cpwill]

MikeDo; i don't know what you can and cannot do; i know that with God all things are possible, and that the scriptures promise that any who truly seek him with their whole heart will find him.

Simon; do you happen to have a mental ward large enough to hold hundreds of millions of people?

DMann; :D sorry to dissapoint. i've never even smoked ciggarettes, much less taken drugs.

Simon again; God has never "made" me do anything. He has clearly expressed to me that it's His will for me to do or not to do things before, and sometimes His will is in conflict with mine. when this happens, sometimes i follow His will, and sometimes i follow mine. usually when i follow mine i later regret it; and i am trying to live my life more and more according to his will rather than my own (or, perhaps, you could say i am struggling to make it so that God's will for my life is also my will), but i am far from perfect in this regard.

[cpwill]

I didn't know that. I doubt CP is on the road to mass murder...maybe after his birthday...


21 baby!!!!:D:D:D

aaaaaaand i have to work that day:mad:

[DMann]

we were just discussing this


Quote:Oliphaunt
besides.. CPwill's birthday is coming up sooner.. and its his big 2-1.. next day he'll be hung over and cursing up a storm.. an instant alcoholic and we'll say "remember when he was just a nice polite young minor?"


Quote: Dmann
hilarious. it's inevitable. next time we see him he'll be wearin' chaps, a sex pistols t-shirt, and smoking clove cigarettes. LOTS of piercings. he'll spend the next two weeks starting up a web page so he can show everyone his new "prince albert"

[DMann]

DMann; sorry to dissapoint. i've never even smoked ciggarettes, much less taken drugs.

CP...it couldn't be more obvious :D :p we know your a good boy .

[cpwill]

:lol: there's a page somewhere on the internet where it describes the different online-poster personality types. someone once told me i'd be a boy scout gone bad.

unfortunately, not only is my birthday in the middle of Term Papers and Exams, but i have also been informed that i get to work on it; so no, no drunken posts from CPWILL about how much he "luvs everybodda heah, seriusly, all you guysss";):D





what's a prince albert?

[Simon666]

I didn't know that. I doubt CP is on the road to mass murder...maybe after his birthday...
I agree with that, the things he didn't want to do may be a lot less bad, but the idea of placing the responsability for your actions with some unreal, not existing person and claiming you didn't actually want to do it freaks me out.


what's a prince albert?
You don't want to know.


Simon; do you happen to have a mental ward large enough to hold hundreds of millions of people?
For the US, his name is George Bush and he's as insane as a lot of the inmates.

[DMann]

I agree with that, the things he didn't want to do may be a lot less bad, but the idea of placing the responsability for your actions with some unreal, not existing person and claiming you didn't actually want to do it freaks me out.

to be honest...it is a bit strange.

You don't wanna know


funny

[cpwill]

I agree with that, the things he didn't want to do may be a lot less bad, but the idea of placing the responsability for your actions with some unreal, not existing person and claiming you didn't actually want to do it freaks me out.

lol, considering that the things God wants me to do are usually a bit more moral than the things i want to do; i'd be more than happy to claim responsibility for having his influence in my life:)

seriously though, didn't you're parents ever tell you to do something you didn't want to do but was good for you, like, eat your vegetables, no you can't watch tv, do your homework etc.? it's the same thing.

You don't want to know.

i have always found that when people say that it is best to trust them.

For the US, his name is George Bush and he's as insane as a lot of the inmates.

this makes no sense whatsoever. if people who speak to God (pray) are insane, then hundreds of millions of people are insane. are you saying that the government of the United States, represented by George Bush is a mental ward? or are you simply trying to take a (weak) opportunity to make a dig?;)

[Redheat]

I think once when I was on drugs I talked to God :D

OK, if you KNOW God's will because you hear her, or whatever..........how do you know that your intepetation of God's will is the correct one? What if God was telling someone else something different? Who's version of God's will is right?

Bush say's God appointed him to go into Iraq, however Jesus was a pacifist hard to think he would have condoned such an action. So who's right? What if the Iraqi people who are fighting against our occupation of their country is doing God's will? How is their God's will more right? or ours? Who decides?

Was it God's will that priests devastate thousands of childrens lives? Was it God's will that the church cover up these crimes? Was it God's will that they were finally being held accountable? So if God was finally expressing her will that the Church pay for their crimes, why do they still continue to deny and cover them up.

It's fine if you think God talks to you (just watch out for those guys with the white jackets) however who gets to decide when it's God's will or just someone acting in their own best interest?

[Simon666]

this makes no sense whatsoever. if people who speak to God (pray) are insane, then hundreds of millions of people are insane. are you saying that the government of the United States, represented by George Bush is a mental ward? or are you simply trying to take a (weak) opportunity to make a dig?;)
It was an attempt at teasing you. I do think the religious zealots who think God gives messages and such have too much influence on the US government under Bush.

[cpwill]

I think once when I was on drugs I talked to God :D

this is something i've been suprised at in running into here; whereas i'm not goin to say that God doesn't come to people on drugs; it is my experience that such people are under hallucinagins; and that they are just as likely to meet God as they are to (for instance) begin believing they've discovered the answer to world peace. personaly, i don't have any experience, so i'm just goin off what i've gained in observation.

OK, if you KNOW God's will because you hear her, or whatever..........how do you know that your intepetation of God's will is the correct one? What if God was telling someone else something different? Who's version of God's will is right?

depends on what you mean by "God's will". when i pray, God doesn't talk to me like we're gossiping or something, i don't think He's ever instructed me on how to vote, or what His opinion on politics or foriegn diplomacy is. typically i've found God is more interested in the individual. if God told me to be more loving to others,or to be more giving with my money, i don't see how that's going to come into conflict with what He would be instructing others to do.

Bush say's God appointed him to go into Iraq, however Jesus was a pacifist hard to think he would have condoned such an action. So who's right? What if the Iraqi people who are fighting against our occupation of their country is doing God's will? How is their God's will more right? or ours? Who decides?

1. i don't find it all that unlikely that Jesus would condon going into iraq.
2. the only people who know that for sure are Bush and God. you and i cannot determine absolutely one way or the other (you are free to think or believe whatever you wish on the subject)

Was it God's will that priests devastate thousands of childrens lives?

the answer to that we can be pretty dang sure would be NO.

Was it God's will that the church cover up these crimes?

same answer

Was it God's will that they were finally being held accountable?

i would believe so.

So if God was finally expressing her will that the Church pay for their crimes, why do they still continue to deny and cover them up.

i don't know, but i'm pretty sure that it has something to do with the fact that they're human.:)

It's fine if you think God talks to you (just watch out for those guys with the white jackets)

they cant get all however many hundred million of us there are:)

however who gets to decide when it's God's will or just someone acting in their own best interest?

why do you have to decide?

[Redheat]

this is something i've been suprised at in running into here; whereas i'm not goin to say that God doesn't come to people on drugs; it is my experience that such people are under hallucinagins; and that they are just as likely to meet God as they are to (for instance) begin believing they've discovered the answer to world peace. personaly, i don't have any experience, so i'm just goin off what i've gained in observation.

It was a joke, in all the times I was high I never once spoke to God :cool:

However I've had a few men claim at certain moments that they seen God ;)

1. i don't find it all that unlikely that Jesus would condon going into iraq.
2. the only people who know that for sure are Bush and God. you and i cannot determine absolutely one way or the other (you are free to think or believe whatever you wish on the subject)

1) But you have NO way of knowing, the only thing that we have would be his teaching which clearly indicates his not endorsing war.

2) Bush and God? What they have a pact? Sorry unless you can PROVE God told you, then don't say it.


Cpwill, you seem to excuse an awful lot to being "human" We are talking men who are supposed to be God's voices, men who were trusted. Trust that came no higher then that of parents and in some cases higher. To dismiss this as being "human" is outrageous.

You still haven't explained how it's God's will can be shown. If each person decides for themselves then it's really not God's will it's theres.

[DMann]

seriously though, didn't you're parents ever tell you to do something you didn't want to do but was good for you, like, eat your vegetables, no you can't watch tv, do your homework etc.? it's the same thing.


the big difference being ...parents are real....tangible

[Aletheia]

I totally want to post and refute a lot of stuff said here, but I have to leave to drive to Jacksonville for a state piano competition, so I will be back Tuesday.

[cpwill]

It was an attempt at teasing you. I do think the religious zealots who think God gives messages and such have too much influence on the US government under Bush.

oh. well, that's simply because as a satan worshipper you naturally fear God's chosen and annointed representative on Earth :D

[DMann]

I totally want to post and refute a lot of stuff said here, but I have to leave to drive to Jacksonville for a state piano competition, so I will be back Tuesday.


we'll be waiting here with bated breath for more of your "god saved me from demon masks" stories.

Why does this one remind me of the mother in "Carrie" ?

[cpwill]

It was a joke, in all the times I was high I never once spoke to God :cool:

However I've had a few men claim at certain moments that they seen God ;)

LOL

1) But you have NO way of knowing, the only thing that we have would be his teaching which clearly indicates his not endorsing war.

i fail to find anywhere in the scriptures the verse against warfare under any circumstances. i'm not positive that the argument could be truly made that we have proof within the new testament text that Jesus would have condemned this war. Jesus rarely seems to have involved himself with politics; and the writers of the new testament were hardly dealing with issues of how-to-act when running a state. the only real discussion of when and how a state can engage in warfare morally is found in the old testament, and i don't really think you're going to be too keen on it's definition;).

2) Bush and God? What they have a pact? Sorry unless you can PROVE God told you, then don't say it.

i'm confused. A) if bush has truly repented/recieved forgiveness then yes, bush and God have a pact. we call it the new covenent.
B) are you calling me a liar?

Cpwill, you seem to excuse an awful lot to being "human"

i don't excuse anything. in fact, i'd bet christians were angrier about the abuses of the priests than non-christians were. i have a friend who's family is very active in the catholic church; there were people honestly asking if the rules of catholicism still allowed execution by burning. these people not only abused the trust we gave them to perform horrible acts apon some of us, they managed to dirty the entire church, when people look at the church from now on, this is what they will see. ask gopman what his opinion on these priests is and see if he tries to excuse them.

my point is not that it's not their fault because they're human, my point is that their behavior is sinful, and that is because they are human, humans bein sinful creatures; we mess up. you seemed as if you were trying to hold religious leaders to the standard of perfection; well, that's an impossible standard, and any group you try to hold to it whether religious or political is goin to fall far short of your expectations. in short, don't pretend that these men are representative of the message of christianity, nor of God's love for us. the one thing that consistently made Jesus madder than anything else were religious leaders who abused their position.

you asked: why do they still do it. i answered: because they are human.

You still haven't explained how it's God's will can be shown. If each person decides for themselves then it's really not God's will it's theres.

what, you want a perfect formula you can apply to other people to see if they are workin within God's will?

[cpwill]

we'll be waiting here with bated breath for more of your "god saved me from demon masks" stories.


to my knowledge, alethia has never made fun of your beliefs....

[DMann]

she sent demons to do it for her. if you were so in touch with the spiritual world...you'd know that.... :D

[Redheat]

she sent demons to do it for her. if you were so in touch with the spiritual world...you'd know that.... :D


:lol: That one made me laugh outloud ..........literaly.

[cpwill]

or perhaps if i was so in touch with the spiritual world i wouldn't resort to personal insult and general deridement of one's beliefs and experiences? i could, perhaps, choose to make fun of the experiences that others have shared on this board, but, then i wouldn't be very in touch with God on that issue, now would i?

i thought better of you.

[DMann]

grrrr...I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. You can't just post crazy psycho -babble about demons and how god saved you from supernatural creatures...etc...and call that proof of his existence and not get an equally surreal answer for it. It ain't happenin on my watch CP...You can call it what you want. I say crazy is crazy. And believe me, I would know.

[DMann]

I'll tell you what..I'll say i'm sorry. I guess people are going to believe what they want to believe and i have no right to ridicule it (i'm biting my tongue right now)...so, i'll just leave it alone.

[cpwill]

{erased by poster: no longer pertinent}

[cpwill]

I'll tell you what..I'll say i'm sorry. I guess people are going to believe what they want to believe and i have no right to ridicule it (i'm biting my tongue right now)...so, i'll just leave it alone.

(sweeps off funny looking hat and bows) thank you, Dmann:)

[DMann]

I'll go ahead and say this so I can have the first say on it. I had a weird experience which i told CP about. I had what people refer to as a white light experience. there were some details to it. and i told him about it. I have never claimed it was anything having to do with God. I don't know what it was. I admit, it was unforgettable. But I don't go around saying God exists because my brain had a glitch for a few minutes. Bsides...Iwas working at Magickalchilde( a huge,witchcraft, magick, voodoo shop)...so, there wasn't a whole lot of Christian stuff going on. not that it validates the opposite. Imean Crowley? not much better. i don't believe in ANY of it. in spite of the white light. I can navigate the morality map without it.

[cpwill]

I'll go ahead and say this so I can have the first say on it.

dude, i wasn't going to put this out....

[MikeD4o7]

I went and saw Seinfeld's standup act last weekend... and he had a little part about people seeing white lights right before they come back to consciousness... he said "of course they see bright lights, the paramedics are shining pen-lights right in their eyes!" Of course he said it in a way that was much funnier than it looks when I type it out.

[Simon666]

oh. well, that's simply because as a satan worshipper you naturally fear God's chosen and annointed representative on Earth :D
Tsar Vladimir? ;):D I don't fear him.

[DMann]

Tsar Vladimir?


King H.I.M. Emperor Haile Selassie I? can whoop his butt

[Simon666]

Tsar Vladimir? King H.I.M. Emperor Haile Selassie I? can whoop his butt
It's an inside joke, there is this kind of troll on Pravda thinking Vladimir Putin is God's holy annointed and autocratic tsar.

[DMann]

King H.I.M. Emperor Haile Selassie I is the rastafarian king that people believe is christ reincarnated.

[cpwill]

Tsar Vladimir? ;):D I don't fear him.


LOL: no, BUT YOU SHALL ZIONIST TROLL!!!!!

[Simon666]

You mean evil edomite Jew/NWO troll. ;)

[mataj]

Tsar Vladimir?Atossa's object of worship. Atossa is world famous Pravda forum's resident troll. She's social worker (I think), an American, living in Palestine, Texas.

Her homepage: http://www.geocities.com/rusatossa/
Her posts: http://engforum.pravda.ru/search.php3?action=showresults&searchid=177890&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending
A bit more typical posts: http://engforum.pravda.ru/search.php3?action=showresults&searchid=177899&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

I guess you got the idea.

[Secession]

Atossa's object of worship. Atossa is world famous Pravda forum's resident troll. She's social worker (I think), an American, living in Palestine, Texas.

Her homepage: http://www.geocities.com/rusatossa/
Her posts: http://engforum.pravda.ru/search.php3?action=showresults&searchid=177890&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending
A bit more typical posts: http://engforum.pravda.ru/search.php3?action=showresults&searchid=177899&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

I guess you got the idea.

Oh dear.

[cpwill]

You mean evil edomite Jew/NWO troll. ;)


yeah...i guess i been out of touch for a while..:p

[DeathMonkey]

God's Will - I would assume thats Shakespeare? Will the Conqueror perhaps? Wil(t) Chamberlin??


If God's Will is such a personal thing, keep it to your personal self. Don't involve ME in your psychosis. If God wants me, He knows where I am. He can talk to ME. What, does He have a 4th grade crush on me, that He needs others to say "you know, God, He really likes you...."?

"I went to His house every Sunday but He wasnt there"....thats freakin GOLD.

The brain makes patterns and quick shortcuts for identification purposes. One of the hallmarks of a variety of mental illnesses is that the patient begins making patterns out of unrelated events. A friend of mine, in the thralls of his first manic episode, believed that I was John Lennon reincarnated (I have the same birthday as JL), and that every action I did was designed to teach him something. He believed that I was God, and if I walked in, and moved, say a magazine, he would spend HOURS trying to figure out what I was trying to tell him. "Jennifer Love Hewitt is on the cover, and its pointing at that lamp, which is light, so I am supposed to LOVE the LIGHT...." Sickening and scary stuff.
I see the same lack of reason in those who express their own actions as "God's Will". The same lack of critical thinking. The white light at the end is the slow deaths of ones neurons, firing randomly as the nervous system relinquishes control. Its not like every cell in the body dies at once, the connections are cut, then the individual cells starve and die.

We have some powerful chemicals in our brains. The lack or overabundance of neurotransmitters leads to extraordinary expressions. Lack of sleep, lack of coding protein precursors, even lack of sodium, or oxygen (or too much) can affect brain performance and cause hallucinations. Aren't we yet beyond the need to explain lightning and mirages? Do we have no history that so many things that were Divine or Supernatural are merely physical phenomena? When do we grow to the point where one says "OK, more has been disproven than proven", and keep faith as a personal expression without trying to push its agenda on anyone else?

When I say more has been disproven than proven, I mean this:
Lightning - Zeus' wrath? Nope, electrical discharge.
Heaven - 200 miles up beyond the firmamament? Nope, thats Space up there.
The Sun - revolves around Earth as Biblically mandated? Nope. Other way around.

So at what point does science explain more than religion? At what point is there enough science to cast doubt on the wisdom of pushing a religious agenda on others, as opposed to just keeping it to yourself?

Of course, it is Gods Will that I post this, to challenge the faithfull, to mislead the wicked, to act in the name of Satan to lead you all to disaster unless you REPENT!!! Of course, how, if I am acting on Satan's behalf, am I doing God's Will....and do I get into Heaven for doing God's Will, or Hell for speaking the heresies of Satan?

[DMann]

DeathMonkey...that's it. brain chemicals. At the time, i was living on the street and barely ate...ever. I weighed 130 lbs. i weigh 225 now. so you can see how my body ...and brain...were starved. i can believe that it was that. i had a white light experience because i was starving to death. At best i would get a few slices of cheese or a thing of yogurt, occasionally, if i was really hungry, I'd beg someone on the street to buy me food. I can see how lack of sleep and food could do that. Amazing that i never went so far as to say it was God huh...even in the throws of delirium. Thanks Deathmonkey. that's as good an explanation that you didn't even know you were making that you ever made eh?

[DeathMonkey]

Alls I know is you should see what I see after too much Indian food.......=]

[2ruballa]

Bush says he went into Iraq because it was God's will..........Was it God's will that we were attacked? Was it God's will that Saddam rule? How does one determine which action is by the will of God and which is by the will of man?

God's will is simple. Read the greatest words that have ever been spoken for yourself. Jesus's Teachings

One can easily know if a person is doing the will of God. Compare and contrast the teachings of Jesus with the actions of people. People who are on the side of peace, goodness, compassion are doing God's will. Bush was not doing God's will by pre-emptively attacking Iraq.

God's will is that man have free will and with this "free will" that man decide to have goodness in their heart by their own choosing.

[DeathMonkey]

I thought God's Will was still in probate after they declared Him dead in the 70's!

he he he.....:devil:



Is this thing on??

[DeathMonkey]

btw, if I have so much free will, how come religious people are always trying to take it away?

[cpwill]

who said we were? we want you to exercise your free will:)

[DeathMonkey]

who said we were? we want you to exercise your free will:)
O yes, indeed....by marching in lockstep to your churches and temples, singing "onward Christian soldiers" or praising Allah, or chanting "Joe Smith rules" while we kill the queers and the heathen. Sweet! Sign my *** UP!

How come I can't buy beer in a restaurant in Utah? Yup, that shore is some free will I gots.

[cpwill]

marching lockstep to my church singing "onward christian soldiers"

i hope not; i don't know the words and i'd be awfully embarrased;):)

no, we want people to seriously think; to take this part of their lives seriously, and not to simply discount us or what we have to say.

in the history of the world, no one has ever been able to "force" faith.

[USA-1]

Onward, Christian soldiers,
Marching as to war
With the cross of Jesus
Going on before!
Christ, the royal Master,
Leads against the foe;
Forward into battle
See his banners go.

Onward, Christian soldiers,
Marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
Going on before!

You really never sang this in church? It was one of my all time favorites.
It is the song GWB's foreign policy is based on.

[TampaWRX]

i fail to find anywhere in the scriptures the verse against warfare under any circumstances. i'm not positive that the argument could be truly made that we have proof within the new testament text that Jesus would have condemned this war. Jesus rarely seems to have involved himself with politics; and the writers of the new testament were hardly dealing with issues of how-to-act when running a state. the only real discussion of when and how a state can engage in warfare morally is found in the old testament, and i don't really think you're going to be too keen on it's definition;).
Didn't Jesus tell believers to love their enemies? To turn the other cheek? Didn't he preach that all life was valuable? I may have misunderstood, but I think you are being a bit liberal with Jesus' teachings as they are commonly understood.

[DeathMonkey]

Originally Posted by cpwill
i fail to find anywhere in the scriptures the verse against warfare under any circumstances. i'm not positive that the argument could be truly made that we have proof within the new testament text that Jesus would have condemned this war. Jesus rarely seems to have involved himself with politics; and the writers of the new testament were hardly dealing with issues of how-to-act when running a state. the only real discussion of when and how a state can engage in warfare morally is found in the old testament, and i don't really think you're going to be too keen on it's definition.

Gee, which commandment is "Thou Shalt Not Kill"? Somehow, if "coveting my neighbors donkey" is a hellworthy offense, I think God is fairly serious about us not killing. He tends to reserve that Right for Himself. We shoulda prayed for a frog storm or a plague.

[cpwill]

it's thou shalt not murder, which is rather different. ;)

[USA-1]

Could the killing of innocent civilians (colateral damage) during a war be considered "murder" in the commandment? It can't be considered an accident because it is known that they will be killed during an assault.

[DeathMonkey]

it's thou shalt not murder, which is rather different. ;)
Whats the difference?

[cpwill]

murder is an intentional unjust slaying. killing can hold any number of things. you, by breathing, are killing bacteria; by eating we kill plants and animals, the list goes on.

[DeathMonkey]

murder is an intentional unjust slaying.

OK, so what is war? If all judgement is in the bailiwick of God, who decides what is a "justified killing"? I have never seen a "self defense" clause in the Bible. In fact, there is a case where EVEN GOD TELLING someone to murder their son is unjust REGARDLESS of Gods telling him to do so ( you know the one I am talking about ), so none of that "God tells me" shenanigans. No one has answered me why Bush is talking to God but Osama isnt.

[MikeD4o7]

OK, so what is war? If all judgement is in the bailiwick of God, who decides what is a "justified killing"? I have never seen a "self defense" clause in the Bible. In fact, there is a case where EVEN GOD TELLING someone to murder their son is unjust REGARDLESS of Gods telling him to do so ( you know the one I am talking about ), so none of that "God tells me" shenanigans. No one has answered me why Bush is talking to God but Osama isnt.


Actually, I think the way that story goes with Abraham being told by God to sacrifice his son ends with God stopping Abraham, but commending him on his obedience... I don't remember God saying that Abraham should not have sacrificed his son had God insisted that's what he wanted... it's pretty much just the opposite.

[DRMIZER]

God's Will - I would assume thats Shakespeare? Will the Conqueror perhaps? Wil(t) Chamberlin??


If God's Will is such a personal thing, keep it to your personal self. Don't involve ME in your psychosis. If God wants me, He knows where I am. He can talk to ME. What, does He have a 4th grade crush on me, that He needs others to say "you know, God, He really likes you...."?

"I went to His house every Sunday but He wasnt there"....thats freakin GOLD.

The brain makes patterns and quick shortcuts for identification purposes. One of the hallmarks of a variety of mental illnesses is that the patient begins making patterns out of unrelated events. A friend of mine, in the thralls of his first manic episode, believed that I was John Lennon reincarnated (I have the same birthday as JL), and that every action I did was designed to teach him something. He believed that I was God, and if I walked in, and moved, say a magazine, he would spend HOURS trying to figure out what I was trying to tell him. "Jennifer Love Hewitt is on the cover, and its pointing at that lamp, which is light, so I am supposed to LOVE the LIGHT...." Sickening and scary stuff.
I see the same lack of reason in those who express their own actions as "God's Will". The same lack of critical thinking. The white light at the end is the slow deaths of ones neurons, firing randomly as the nervous system relinquishes control. Its not like every cell in the body dies at once, the connections are cut, then the individual cells starve and die.

We have some powerful chemicals in our brains. The lack or overabundance of neurotransmitters leads to extraordinary expressions. Lack of sleep, lack of coding protein precursors, even lack of sodium, or oxygen (or too much) can affect brain performance and cause hallucinations. Aren't we yet beyond the need to explain lightning and mirages? Do we have no history that so many things that were Divine or Supernatural are merely physical phenomena? When do we grow to the point where one says "OK, more has been disproven than proven", and keep faith as a personal expression without trying to push its agenda on anyone else?

When I say more has been disproven than proven, I mean this:
Lightning - Zeus' wrath? Nope, electrical discharge.
Heaven - 200 miles up beyond the firmamament? Nope, thats Space up there.
The Sun - revolves around Earth as Biblically mandated? Nope. Other way around.

So at what point does science explain more than religion? At what point is there enough science to cast doubt on the wisdom of pushing a religious agenda on others, as opposed to just keeping it to yourself?

Of course, it is Gods Will that I post this, to challenge the faithfull, to mislead the wicked, to act in the name of Satan to lead you all to disaster unless you REPENT!!! Of course, how, if I am acting on Satan's behalf, am I doing God's Will....and do I get into Heaven for doing God's Will, or Hell for speaking the heresies of Satan?I must say, that is one of the most logically-based passages I've read here in a loooooong time!

Thanks!!

[DRMIZER]

Readheat,

I read your original post and have scanned the rest of the 9 pages. According to what I've read you have done a magnificant job in asking a question and getting no logical, moral or ethical answer.

I salute you!

[Aletheia]

As interesting as this is, i'll stay out of this one. I do have feelings, dmann!!!

[Aletheia]

to my knowledge, alethia has never made fun of your beliefs....
or perhaps if i was so in touch with the spiritual world i wouldn't resort to personal insult and general deridement of one's beliefs and experiences? i could, perhaps, choose to make fun of the experiences that others have shared on this board, but, then i wouldn't be very in touch with God on that issue, now would i?

i thought better of you.
Thanks for defending me when I wasnt around. Where's the moderator when you need him, anyway? ;)

[Redheat]

Readheat,

I read your original post and have scanned the rest of the 9 pages. According to what I've read you have done a magnificant job in asking a question and getting no logical, moral or ethical answer.

I salute you!


Thank you! I'm glad someone understood what I was trying to get at. :D

[mahayana]

I've pondered a lot of the things that have been discussed in this thread. One thing I copied several pages back

"do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.


i like that one...it's ornery and you don't have to answer to anyone but yourself"

I like better "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. That is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary" from the Torah.

In my experience "it was God's will" is generally said after something bad happens that you don't understand. I had occasion to tell my daughter-in-law that God must have a purpose for her, after she came out of a month-long coma instead of dying as expected (she lost both legs and most of her fingers). The concept is simple to apply to the past, more difficult to the present or future.

Have any of you read Sylvia Browne's "The Other Side"? There is much in there about souls choosing to come back to accomplish specific things on earth. Most of us do seem to have some kind of "higher purpose" inside, feel that there is something we really should be doing with our lives. Perhaps that's a version of God's Will.

If Jesus is not a pacifist, there never was one. Killing to make the world safe for Christians is different than killing for Jesus. "Blessed are the peacemakers" presumes that war is here to stay, what role you decide to play is your will. Not God's.