Organized Religion

[Duo_Maxwell]

I personnaly don't care about organized religion, as long as it isn't forced upon me.

Is voltaire wrong for his dislike of organized religion?

[JD3]

I'll give you a marginal good. It certainly has had its bad moments. Or at least I should say people have used it to do bad.

But it also does good. Religion and religous people really do work hard to help people. Some even do it without a big recuritment drive. I have seen and worked with enough good people liek this to know that there is some good here. More good than bad I think.

[DRMIZER]

Originally posted by JD3
I have seen and worked with enough good people liek this to know that there is some good here. More good than bad I think. I agree with this statement. Thinking in terms of these same people, do you think they would have done as many good things without organizaed religion?

[Dissent]

Religion by itself is not the problem. Religion has done a lot of good for people. Now, I don’t write this next bit to offend those of you who are religious but I would say religion is very much a security blanket that acts as a safe and secure support for many.
I have no problem with this, and even admire those who can believe in this force but it’s when Religious institutions tell you how you must run your life and be, that is when I have a problem. There is a major problem when powerful organisations and people who affect governments and policies, effectively forcing millions of people, religious or not into conforming to these ideals. It’s worse for many who become ostracised because they don’t ‘fit’ this. A major problem is when these large religious organisations stay conservative and traditional, refusing to change with times or worse still, refusing to change with its people.

Many inside these organisations are not the problem and I will admit, at times these organisations do a lot of good. But I still think that it’s the institution of organised religion itself and too many others in positions of power, who often forget the people, that are the problem.

[DRMIZER]

Originally posted by Dissent
Religion by itself is not the problem. Religion has done a lot of good for people. Now, I don’t write this next bit to offend those of you who are religious but I would say religion is very much a security blanket that acts as a safe and secure support for many.
I have no problem with this, and even admire those who can believe in this force but it’s when Religious institutions tell you how you must run your life and be, that is when I have a problem. There is a major problem when powerful organisations and people who affect governments and policies, effectively forcing millions of people, religious or not into conforming to these ideals. It’s worse for many who become ostracised because they don’t ‘fit’ this. A major problem is when these large religious organisations stay conservative and traditional, refusing to change with times or worse still, refusing to change with its people.

Many inside these organisations are not the problem and I will admit, at times these organisations do a lot of good. But I still think that it’s the institution of organised religion itself and too many others in positions of power, who often forget the people, that are the problem. Sorry. Religion does nothing, good or bad. It is people who do the deeds and usually use religion to give them credit for their actions.

In all fairness, no one in this country would be split on religious issues if the Christians would simply STOP! It's boring and now it's faded over into politics where the president expects to get re-elected on the basis of his religion. . .hence the mentions all the time. Surely no on is naive enough to believe he is THAT religous?

It appears the distance between the Christians and the non-Christians is getting farther apart because of this fanatasizim. And, now family "values" play into this religousity as though if you're not a "bible thumper" that you can't have values in your family.

Then you have supposedly sharp people like James Dobson making no sense at all when it comes to homosexuals. He's either lying when he states he knows the lifestyle is against God or his education was very much lacking. He knows damn well that people don't switch teams. He didn't pick his sexuality and the homosexuals don't either. How dumb can you be. He'll also gives you examples of those who have changed. He can't! No more than he could make you a homosexual if you weren't one. He has "Christian changed" homosexuals on his show testifying they are a new person and they no longer practice homosexuality. I'll give him and them that BUT, they are abstinent not hetrosexuals. (I've been married for 37+ years but I know evidence when I see it.) And yet, if you don't see it his way, you are evil 'cause the bible says so. Bull hockey. He;s a homophobe and won't admit it. But, trust me....he knows better but he has to tow the "party line."

I find that more and more organized religion is hate-filled in many respects. They use the bible to seclude themslves from the real world where real people live and believe that homosexuals are filled with demons. What pathetic thinking this is. Another example of hate-fillers proclaiming they are of God is Jerry Falwell. He's an equal opportunity hater. He hates everybody that doesn't see it his way including the last president. He went so far as to publish videos stating that The Clinton's had Vince Foster killed. And this is religion? It's sacreligeous! Pathetic.

And we all know that if you aren't a Christian that you can have no morals, period. God invented morals and no one other than bible-believing Christians can be moral. They have the wraps on morality. When I begin to deal with the WWJD bumper stickers and the "Jesus" fish on the back of the car, I put my guard up. It's just a matter of time until you get dunked monetarily.

Now for those reading this let me say that I am generalizing about the Christians. All faiths have their problems, including those who have no faith. But the Jesus thing has become a new ride for the new generation to re-invent the Christian movement. I am convinced of all the people I know that the nice people are going to be nice and the not so nice ones are going to be that way. The bible isn't going to scare the devil out of them. :lol: Without the brainwashing from the cradle, there would be few irritating thumpers around.

Those who want to be moral will be. Those who don't, won't.

[Duo_Maxwell]

I see religion as something to believe in when times get rough, but organized religion with all of its extra pompus crap never appealed to me.

You could say I have a form of voltaire's anti-organized religion in me.

[Dissent]

Originally posted by DRMIZER
Sorry. Religion does nothing, good or bad. It is people who do the deeds and usually use religion to give them credit for their actions.


True, to an extent but I guess this goes back to the age old problem of whether natural corruption occurs or is it corruption from institutions?
Which really gets down to, is it nature of nurture?

I personally think that it is the corruption from social institutions, religious, government, family, etc. Corruption from organised religion.

[DRMIZER]

Originally posted by Dissent
True, to an extent but I guess this goes back to the age old problem of whether natural corruption occurs or is it corruption from institutions?
Which really gets down to, is it nature of nurture?

I personally think that it is the corruption from social institutions, religious, government, family, etc. Corruption from organised religion. Agreed!

[Agnostic]

Ignorance and fear produce superstition and religion.

[Sandy]

That's good Agnostic. I have a fear of what religion does to a young growing brain. Everyday our children face decisions that must be evaluated in their brains before they, let's say, walk into traffic or whether something in a store looks good enough to take a chance at stealing it. Our kids have a tough time leaning right from wrong due to the television shows that sometimes prove that breaking the law is good, such as doing drugs and having a lot of unprotected sex.

I handled this stuff by holding a dinner meeting every night and asking my two kids to explain to me why riding their bike on a dangerous hill might be a problem. They gave me the answer! We lived in a world of rattlesnakes and I used to shudder when they would go out on the horses barefoot. One of their friends did get nailed by a rattler and they soon put that on their list of things to do. (wear boots)

It took about 13 years per daughter before they would bring up dating rules. They wrote them I didn't have to. I didn't wait for the church or school to write these for us because it always involved praying to God for the answers and jumping over the decision-making brains the kids were developing.

My best friend lost his little brother to liver cancer when he was only 17 years old. His mother dissolved into a bed of bibles and prayer. His father decided to do something about this terrible disease and joined up with another medical group and did tons of fund raising to stamp out this disease.

This shows me exactly why I fear for the future of any child who is raised according to the bible and not by a development of their own rational brains. We see many young girls being lured out of their homes to join cults led by men who claim to be Jesus. No mechanism of "watch out" was ever planted in their brains and no decision was made rationally because they had never been trained to do it.

America will either sink or swim according to our ability to survive and having a bunch of nonthinking Americans running around is not a good thing to have.

Everyone of us who have children should sit them down and go over all the possible "What ifs" that could happen in their daily lives. My kids were raised on the San Andreas fault where our phone lines and electric lines were off for days at a time. If my kids were away from home at camp or even at school and I couldn't be reached we had an emergency phone number of a relative living in another state where we could leave messages like where we were and that we were fine. We were also subject to fire storms and I had to know the kids could free the horses down to another corral if they needed to do it.

It's amazing how much good this can do and gives the children a sense of self-esteem and self-worth For some reason many Christian schools will not teach this self-esteem and want the kids to pray instead.

[Dissent]

Originally posted by Agnostic
Ignorance and fear produce superstition and religion.


True, but couldn't you also say that some use religion as a way to help explain not always out of ignorance and fear? This could be because we are curious by nature.

I would tend to say that people and/or insititutions manipulate religion out of fear and ignorance.

[Sandy]

The human brain has evolved into a multi-level thinking machine. When people don't use this gift it won't stay. I think what we are seeing are a whole generation of humans who have devolved back a few hundred years. How could this happen? They were turned off of thinking in any dimension other than one dimension.

Watching a tiny baby suddenly learn to do one thing and then wait for the consequences is a true joy. Even animals can do this but when a toddler begins to ask why; is where the division of the species can be seen.

I fear that many religions today remove the "why" from our younger kids and simply say something like "This is a miracle from God" This immediately turns the question off for that child. Many of my grandchildren's friends are totally turned off any question that needs answering. They have been raised in front of a television and can't even tell the difference between the show and the commercials.

Between television and organized religion I often wonder where this will lead in another 200 years. We will be nothing but programmed robots!

[Dissent]

That’s so true, mass media has taught us how to ‘fill our inner emptiness with stuff’ today. As organised religion has taught us to become a collective individual.
I still think that religion in general can be a wonderful thing, when I say religion; I don’t mean going to church and following the catholic or Christian ‘system’, and organised religions, I mean having beliefs or spirituality that helps us overcome difficult times or makes us feel somewhat at peace with ourselves in this sometimes harsh world and still be able to feel comfortable to be critical and question.

Now, personally I don’t believe in anything, I got religion pushed onto me when I was kid and I can’t bring myself to believe in something. This at times can give you a rather negative look on the world since you are forever asking why and never getting answers or feeling content with what you do get. At times I feel rather liberated because I see many having to box their life into following rules and principles, rejecting and hurting others that deviate.
This is only because I misinterpreted what religion is and organised religion.
To some extent those who are religious are discriminated against because they do believe like those who don’t are.

[JD3]

Originally posted by DRMIZER
I agree with this statement. Thinking in terms of these same people, do you think they would have done as many good things without organizaed religion?

Can't say with certainty. Maybe. But they do get together, socialize, and wrok together for a common good. In that sense, the organized religion has been good. It fulfills a need they have and allows them to give back. This seems positive.

Have groups abused this? Absolutely. And we should be vigilent with our beliefs and not allow rhetoric to mislead us. Any notion that any God wants us to kill or harm others must be squelched early.;)

[Sandy]

I am a retired senior and have spent years with the Red Cross and various other volunteer groups. I retired a couple of years ago and focused on Hospice work with AIDs patients and when I moved to Arizona with seniors who were dying of some terminal disease or just old age. In no way did I run into religious groups! Quite the contrary, I found religious groups self centered around their own congregation without much interest in the kind of patients that I had. On the other hand, few of my terminals wanted any spiritual leaders around them as they were dying.

Organized religion used to take on the people when no one else was there to help them but today that is not the case. Most Christians are homophobes and want nothing to do with even a child with AIDs. I believe the key word here is "organized" which to a Christian means divided against others in trouble.

Christians are far too divided for their own good. I attended a pro-gun meeting a couple of years ago and wandered into a Fundamentalist Evangelical bunch of hateful people. I couldn't believe my ears at the hate that spewed out of these people's mouths. They hate everyone! They even started to list those who must be stamped out: Catholics, most Protestants, Jews, Gays, Muslims, Atheists, etc.etc. I stood up and marched out of the meeting and got frightened when 3 others followed me. I ran to my car and drove like hell out of the parking lot and came home. I can't think when I was ever this frightened before!

[JD3]

That's too bad. I have worked with many good christians here, mostly catholic (mostly because that is who I work with -- don't mean it any other way), who do good work with all groups. I'd like to think many can look beyond their concerns and see the people. :(

[Sandy]

Joe, they used to dig in and help their neighbors. Today they are nothing but a political agency fighting for special rights to be included in the Constitution. Every four years an group from the Christian Coalition meet and pressure whoever is running to include them in the Executive Orders or Constitutional Amendments. This is sad to me because one has never been able to legislate morals anywhere. Back in the 50s and 60s abortion were illegal and yet millions of American women snuck over the borders to have them. Many also died of infections and many bled to death due do a self-inflicted puncture of the uterus.

The organized religions never raised a finger to stop this slaughter! I had many preachers and priests tell me these girls deserved what they got. I would shudder to think I once belonged to one of their churches.

I volunteered my time with Big Sisters Big Brothers and we did a lot of good things with the many young teens in our district. Our suicide rate was sky high and we did manage to control this for years. When the church decided to get into this successful group it was discovered that many of the cousellors were gay! That did it, all hell broke loose and the church made a big nasty noise about how our children were in danger from these people. Hell, I would feel safer at a BigBrother/Sister meeting than to attend a church full of priests!!!

[gopman]

Rather than continuing the christian-bashing, I'll address the question.

"I personally think that it is the corruption from social institutions, religious, government, family, etc. Corruption from organised religion."

That's not accurate. People want to make money, or get power, or do whatever they want to do, and they'll use whatever they can to get it. That's a founding principle of economics. Oftentimes, this comes in the form of social institutions. Some people use religion just like others use government and others use brute force. Using religion as a justification is no different from just going and killing someone because you can. Organized religion was created to, and does, spread hope and morality in nearly all of its forms.

[Sandy]

gopman, Many charlatans use the church to cheat and loot for their own monetary ends. Jesse Jacksson comes to mind. He uses his position as a Reverand to exploit many of the larger corporations by promising them his groups will not picket the company or make claims that the company is racial biased.

We have another man who uses the Christian membership lists for his own financial gain and then coerses them into funding even more of this ridiculous scheme to screw the IRS. He has been raided and will be in jail by the end of the year. He knows very well that his membership list has been turned into the IRS where there will most assuredly audit the whole damn bunch. Meanwhile he is raking in millions from these poor suckers.

The churches are rich beyond belief and keep taking donations because the donors know it is a tax deduction. The IRS knows that the churches aren't doing all the good christian things they did many years ago but one of these days, the IRS will clamp down and half the Christian leaders will go to jail on fraud charges.

Sure they have time to fix this mess and start spending the millions of dollars in donations they take in but greed has taken over and they won't. They will scream "Discrimination" the day the IRS does this and all the Christians will run screaming to the white house to save them.

This reminds me of a Monty Python skit about the Inquisition. The Federal government knows the greatest scheme ever devised comes from the Churches! They would have been turned in years ago hadit not been for Clinton nodding his okay and Bush believing he is the God of America.

When the churches turn corrupt, this country is indeed doomed!

[Captain America]

"What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"

Pope Leo X.

[gopman]

"The churches are rich beyond belief and keep taking donations because the donors know it is a tax deduction."

I'm not so sure the churches are all that rich. The one I go to certainly isn't. Also, tax deductions don't incentivise people to donate to churches, they just remove the incentive against doing so. The taxpayer loses the money one way or another. That doesn't quite look like a conspiracy to me. I agree that there is corruption involved with the church, but that is not a basis from which you can make a legitemate attack on the Christian faith or organized religion as a whole. The same people will be defrauding people whether organized religion exists or not.

"Christians will run screaming to the white house to save them"

Again, not Christians as a whole. I and all the Christians I know are just as furious if not more so about corruption. Your statement that half of the Church's leaders are frauds is also baseless. And why only Christianity? Is it something they preach that other religions don't?" No, you're making a baseless argument to support your personal prejudice. If you don't like Christians, just say it. That's your right. Just don't make up stuff and waste everyone's time posting it on the internet.

[Captain America]

"The churches are rich beyond belief and keep taking donations because the donors know it is a tax deduction."

That makes no econonical sense to me whatsoever. It makes no sense to give a church a dollar when you only get to deduct the tax on that dollar and not the whole dollar.

In other words. If you make a dollar, and it is in your pocket already, you have to pay a % of tax on that dollar. When you give the dollar to the church, sure you don't have to pay the % of tax on that dollar, but you are out of that WHOLE dollar. What is the economical sense in that? Eighty cents in hand is better than a dollar in the bush.

[Sandy]

I understood that if anyone donated to a 501(c)(3) the entire donation was tax deductible. I did a lot of volunteer work for the YMCA and the Salvation Army and told people any donation could be taken off their taxes. I used to hand them a receipt for the amount they donated. Has this changed in the last 10 years?

[Captain America]

No Sandy, you are correct but the common misconception is this. There are several ways to become a non-profit organization and a 501 c3 is ceratinly one of them but here is how it works.

If you earn 1000.00 dollars, and tax was, say, hmmmm, 20% (200.00), you get to pocket 800.00 of it. If you donate 100.00 dollars of that 1000.00 earned income to a 501c3 organization, now you only have to pay tax on 900.00 which is 180.00 dollars. Sure, you pay 20.00 less in income taxes but now you only walk, at the end of the day, with 720.00 dollars instead of 800.00 dollars.

So to use the excuse that donating makes economical sense because of the tax break, is not correct because it doesn't. 800.00 dollars in the pocket is much better than 720.00 dollars in the pocket. Agree?

People should first, donate from the heart and then take the tax advantage. They should never donate hard cash thinking that the tax break will make them profit as it will not.

[Sandy]

When I was on the Executive Board of our symphony, our entire budget came from donations. Ticket sales only covered our rental and advertising costs. Selling out an Elvis concert is easy but trying to sell out and find donors for a Classical music concert takes a lot of sweat and promises. We managed to do it but we had to put on a POP concert which drove me crazy. Our conductor also conducted the musicians from the studios and was able to borrow some of the Disney music which did bring in the kids. Our musicians played the POPs concert at half pay just to help us out. Our symphony orchestra is actually in the black due to the excellent musicians that would do our concerts for scale. Pinckus Zukerman did one for scale (Imagine that).

The poor symphony here in the West Valley of Phoenix has gone totally in debt and will be ended next month. This is sad but not unexpected. We don't have the audience here that we had in San Luis Obispo. The Los Angeles Philharmonic still manages to be successful due to the expertise of their management and musicians. Many of the musicians travel up and down the coast doing the L.A. Philharmonic, the Santa Barbara Symphony, ours in San Luis Obispo and then head up to the Bach festival in Monterey and the Bach festival in Eugene Oregon. It's the only way they can make a living wage. I'm afraid Arizona is out of the loop. We do have a wonderful Chamber Music Society that brings in chamber music (strings) here 4 times a year. It is extremely costly to fly in quartets and find shelter for them and then their concert fees but we are a fun group and do a lot of fundraising parties to keep it going. I thoroughly enjoy this group. We have no musicians but act as booking agents for several. There is a concert this evening and I am looking forward to sitting through some really good music. look forward to moving back to California!

Sadly I think classical music is on the way out. Phoenix does little to bring the young audience in. It takes more than putting on the Nutcracker Suite once a year. I am hoping I can get through the holiday without sitting through the suite this year. I have always taken a carload of kids to a Christmas production and am damned tired of it!

I would love to hear a concert at the Dorothy Chandler Auditorium again.

[Captain America]

I sat on the WAMI (Wisconsin Area Music Industry) Board of Directors for the last three years. We are trying to get 501c3 status. It is amazingly difficult to achieve for a "loose knit" organization. But after three years of meeting requirements, the organization just might get that status. That will help our funding immensely.

PS... Sandy, I have a question for you.

In terms of the classical greats, do you think there are any present or past composers that have lived in the last one hundred years, have any hope of becoming as respected as Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, etc.? Someone who, in 4 or 5 hundred years, will be remembered and performed, with the same manner and respect that the afore mentioned are viewed, in this day and age?

[gopman]

If I had to pick, I'd say Paul McCartney and Ray Charles.

[Captain America]

Most definitely. They both are pure icons.

In terms of orchestra and symphonic composition, including piano concerto, I wonder if that Yanni guy will write anything that sticks to the wall of time. I know Billy Joel is composing his butt off in the classical field. I think we would like to join the music immortals. I dunno.:confused: I liked the old Billy Joel.

There are some truly talented people out there rocking the classical music genre. I love classical music. I even like some of the pop songs that have been transposed for symphony.

I LOVE Pink Floyd. I hope they still play them in centuries to come. What a drag it would be to live in a world without PF tunes.

[up2date]

I know this has nothing to do with the original post, but it's fun. I think you have to consider the great jazz composers: Duke Ellington and Count Basie

[Captain America]

Should we continue at another thread created/dedicated to this topic?

First, it would be interesting which genres will stand the test of time before we can speculate which composers of any particular genre will be remembered. Will country music be remembered? Jazz? Rock and Roll? Hip-hop (just kidding:lol: )

It all evolves. But which one will stick?

[up2date]

Originally posted by Captain America
Should we continue at another thread created/dedicated to this topic? I think that's an idea!

[Sandy]

Capt. The one musician, pianist, composer who comes to mind is Leonard Bernstein. He did, with the New York Symphony, a series of childrens concerts that influenced some great musicians to stick with their childhood dreams of becoming world famous.

He may have been the most versatile musician in my generation. He could do anything! I have his recordings (CDs) of the Shostakovich's Piano Concertos where he not only conducted but played them both. Flawless! His Candide was musically perfect for a Broadway show and his own works have gained a lot of reknown. After Kennedy was killed, Jackie approached Leonard to write a Mass for her husband. He did it in a year and it is as good as any Mass written by any of the Masters.

I feel that he has been overlooked as a musician after he screwed up his public life by being a bisexual. It was a great loss to music when he died an early death.

I heard a couple of modern works last night and they sounded like musical scores for Sci Fi films. I am bored to death with Ravel, Bartok and that whole weird group who wrote music for the piano that should have been played by tympani...

When I'm home and working I will put on Bach (Glenn Gould, of course) or Schubert's string quartets.

The only music I have trouble listening to is Country Western. The slide guitar annoys me as it never even tries to hit a note head on and slides into it. The singers do the same thing. It is foreign to my ears. I'm used to opera where the notes are sung as written. It's all in how we learned our music.

I fear the art of classical music is dying on the vine. At the concert on Sunday afternoon not a single young person was in the audience and last night it was the same thing. Phoenix is certainly a country music kind of town which makes me want to head back to California where all the best of every kind of music can be found.

[Captain America]

One of my bands just got back from performing at the LA Music awards Nov. 22nd. We literally hate going to California (LA specifically). Filthy, grafitti, overpriced, and full of airheads generally speaking.

I heard that if they gave California an emema, they would stick it in LA. Even Santa Monica and Hollywood are not that appealing contrary to popular belief. Traffic is a nightmare.

Give me Texas or Florida. I would, however, like to travel around California as I hear it is a beautiful state but all my business leads me to the armpit of that state. Yuk.

[gopman]

The only two types of music that I can't listen to are metal and reggae.

I think Dave Brubeck might have a strong legacy, as I think "Time Out" was the best selling Jazz album of all time. Louis Armstrong as well. I've talked to someone who worked in LA, and he said they are way too laid back about work and they actually drink while working. Good luck with their economy, Arnold.

[Sandy]

Capt. if you ever get a chance. Start from Los Angeles and take Highway 101 north through Santa Barbara (ocean all the way) and head north until you get to San Luis Obispo. Change to Highway One and stay with it all the way to Carmel and Monterey. This is some of the most beautiful part of California. Just north of San Luis Obispo there are several lovely beach towns perched on the hills overlooking the Pacific Ocean. My favorites are Morro Bay where the famous large rock can be seen and the greatest fish restaurants are found anywhere in America. a little further north is Cayucos where some awesome fishing can be found and the oyster farm can be toured. A little further north is the village of Harmony that was the original site of Challenge Butter when the whole area was made up of cattle and dairy farms. Stay on Highway one and you will come to Cambria Village where it looks so beautiful you will think you are on a movie set.

Most of the commercials of green hills and beautiful cars are filmed right there. We have many movies made in our village and it was wonderful to run into some of my old friends of the studios.

We have a lot of movie stars who have retire to Cambria and it it not unusual to see Michelle Pfiffer shopping at the local drug store or Nehemiah Persoff at the market. Eddie Van Halen had a home with Valerie but they sold it after their slit. It is also an art colony with some of the best California artists living and working on the hills or even downtown. They filmed Anacrophobia all over the village and it was such fun. I got to play with "Big Bob" a 9 inch tarantula. I was even an extra in the film.

Wander around Cambria village and head north on Highway One. If you are into grand Renaissance art stop at the Hearst Castle. Head north again through Big Sur which is breathtaking in beauty. Takes some careful driving but worth the effort. You can take Highway one all through Monterey and Carmel and end up in Santa Cruz and then San Francisco. To me this is the most beautiful drive in California. I can no longer afford to live in this area but I left my heart there when I moved to Arizona.

[Sandy]

When I was dating, we used to head for Manhattan Beach to a tiny bistro and listen to Brubeck at least twice a week. It was awesome music indeed. This may have been before he began to record his music. I couldn't take much Stan Kenton as it was too noisy but his wife (June Cristy) used to sing in with Brubeck once in a while.

I didn't like the 40s big band sound as I found it impossible to listen to the instruments themselves. I had an uncle who played with several of the big bands and they were stoned or drunk all the time. I loved the Benny Goodman sextet as being wonderful listening! Do you know of these sounds? I am a different generation that most of you which means a different set of musicians to talk about.

I loved Ella Fitzgerald and Anita O'day when they would scat sing. Peggy Lee was another favorite of mine as her voice sounded like a saxaphone.

[nilz263]

people need something to believe in, people can't just drift through life without believing in something that's higher than themselves. it's gives people hope that tough times can be overcome with help of a higher being. This is the goal of organized religon.

[gopman]

That might be a consequence of organized religion, but it's not the goal. If you ask any religious leader, they will tell you their goal is to bring people closer to God, or something to that effect.

[Sandy]

nilz, not everyone needs the vision of a higher being to get through tough times. In my mind, I reevaluate how I got into this tough time and figure out how to not only get out of it but how to avoid it in the future.

I believe that many times we aren't paying attention to what we are doing and an accident can happen or a birthday or anniversary is overlooked and we may pay dearly for this slipup.

There are times like 9-11 when we need to feel the full impact of what is happening to all of us instead of wondering what we did to annoy some God somewhere. Most of us knew about terrorism from having gone through WW2, Korea and Vietnam and when the first attack came to the twin towers we all felt that D.C. would figure out who and why. Apparently nothing was done about it and again with the USS Cole was attacked and 17 of our American sailors were killed, we expected more from the White House.

Okay so we put in a new man to lead us and again after 9-11, he kept any retaliation a deep secret and I have always wondered if he was gathering numbers on a poll somewhere to plan any further action. There didn't seem to be any rage in Bush but a practiced perfect speech was ready for him.

If I were the least bit religious I would be thoroughly annoyed at any American leader using Jesus as bait for the next election. He has allowed the Christian Coalition to guide his next moves with regard to the Constitution. This may please you, but it annoys the hell out of me.

It is a cheap and dirty trick for Bush to bring Jesus into any political discussion and it is simply pandering to people who cannot or will not think for themselves.

[Sandy]

gopman. My atheism points to a manipulation by our leaders (state, fedeal, and heads of the household) when it comes to any God. I have heard parents threaten a child with God who will punish them thoroughly instead of taking the responsibility on their own. I have heard the Devil brought into the parents threats that unless the child changes quickly the devil will get into their soul and destroy them from within. This removes all the rationality out of teaching responsibility in every child. In the last 3 years we have read that many mothers have drowned their children when the devil told them to do it. There was a man who ran over his own son when the boy was born crippled. Again he said the devil told him to remove this very damaged child. Over and over we see the horrors of misguided religion showing up in many of our headlines.

I have always told my kids and students to find their own centers, develop a good strong moral code and when they find their lives are missing something, then go look for God. Finding God first often leads to tragedy.

[Captain America]

Finding God first often leads to tragedy.

I didn't know he was lost. Did somebobdy forget where they put him?

[Sandy]

I misplaced him years ago.

I think you caught my message that if one constantly looks for an excuse for tragedy it will strike again and again. I always believe that there is usually good reason for whatever happens to us and we should face it.

On another forum a very sad story was told about a young father who put his toddler down for a moment when the moving van was bringing their furniture. Taking his eyes off his baby for just a minute is all it took and the baby was killed instantly.

We all felt sick about this but we all have shared a close call when a distraction got in the way of watching our kids. Many of us think back and were reminded of a time at the beach when one of our kids were out of sight! This young father wanted to find out why God played such a dirty trick on him. I couldn't even respond.