Telling it like it is............

[Voice Of Reason]

don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December.

I don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution. Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home from the game. "But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue. Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles. According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1. So what would you expect - somebody chanting Hare Krishna?
If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer.
If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer.
If I went to a ping pong! match in China, I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit.
When in Rome...
"But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them? Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer. Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the world's foundations.

Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. God, help us. And if that last sentence offends you, well..........just sue me! The silent majority has been silent too long. It's time we let that one or two who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care what they want. It is time the majority rules! It's time we tell them, you don't have to pray; you don't have to say the pledge of allegiance; you don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will honor your right. But by golly, you are no longer going to take our rights away! We are fighting back, and we WILL WIN! After all, the God you have the right to denounce is on our side! God ! bless us one and all, especially those who denounce Him. God bless America, despite all her faults, still the greatest nation of all. God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship God.

May 2004 be the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our families and institutions. Keep looking up...... In God WE Trust

[cpwill]

i do believe this is the first time i've ever done this...

:clap::clap::clap: this says what i sometimes feel.

[MikeD4o7]

You can pray at every football game you go to for all I care... but do you really need to do it with a megaphone or over the PA?

[Duo_Maxwell]

Something tells me this is another e-mail VOR got. He couldn't have possibly written something like that himself. Impossible.

It is time the majority rules!

Theocracy here we come! secular government, civil rights, minority rights, democracy, equality before the law, equality a all, we knew you well. It's quite sad that we must give you up because of religion.


But by golly, you are no longer going to take our rights away! We are fighting back, and we WILL WIN!

Sure you will, and if you do, will you want what you have won? Religious influence on government is a very dangerous path to take. It's great how christians in America denounce Islamic Theocracy yet push this sort of flaming bull**** in America. Double standard to say the least.

After all, the God you have the right to denounce is on our side! God ! bless us one and all, especially those who denounce Him. God bless America, despite all her faults, still the greatest nation of all. God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship God.

Mindless, emotional rheotric. OBL says God is on his side, you say God is on outside, he says God doesn't exist. Not to mention that is a complete opinion.
There is a reason intelligent people scoff at organized religion. It's not hard to figure out why.

[jamesrage]

VOR makes a good point.
Our founding four fathers are religious as well as many of our founding civil rights leaders.With out religion our country would not be the way it is today.Yes I do know that there were many bad apples of the bunch who used religion to screw others,so do not try to argue the negative causes of religion to me.

[Jard]

Right VOR... so we are going to play the who can shout loudest about their religion game. Then when one religion/group of people feel smaller or discriminated against, we can then maybe move on to the who can fight hardest for their religion game and at that point we can really regress as a society.

Why cant people shout about heir religions in their churchs or in own minds rather then trying to do it collectively in public places causing minorities and public tensions.

[Voice Of Reason]

Right VOR... so we are going to play the who can shout loudest about their religion game. Then when one religion/group of people feel smaller or discriminated against, we can then maybe move on to the who can fight hardest for their religion game and at that point we can really regress as a society.

Why cant people shout about heir religions in their churchs or in own minds rather then trying to do it collectively in public places causing minorities and public tensions.

Read the frigging post and you will understand why......

Ahhhh, maybe not you........ :rolleyes:

[BFPierce]

I suppose this thread begs the question of why christian fanatics feel that prayer is appropriate at all times for all purposes. Why does it have to be their prayers, to their God. Suppose the decision was made to allow prayer, but to alternate the God to whom those prayers would be directed. How many of the so-called Christians would allow their child to pray to Allah or Buddha? Not many, I'll bet. Just because Christians are in the minority is not a reason why their God should be publicly worshipped to the exclusion of all others. We have a first amendment right to worship the God of our choice. RW christians have no right to foist their god on everyone else just because they are the majority. The rights bestowed upon us in the first amendment are not subject to popular approval. To insist that a Hindu pray to Jesus even for 30 seconds is an affront to his religion. The first amendment was written to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. What in the world is it with RW christians that makes them insist that they worship publicly? Why can't they just do it privately in a way that will offend no one.

By the way, to suggest that this country was founded on christian principles is just nonsense. The founding fathers did all they could do to keep religion and government seperate. The right wingers just are never satisfied with that.

[cpwill]

I suppose this thread begs the question of why christian fanatics feel that prayer is appropriate at all times for all purposes.

because it is, there is nothing wrong with prayer.

Why does it have to be their prayers, to their God. Suppose the decision was made to allow prayer, but to alternate the God to whom those prayers would be directed. How many of the so-called Christians would allow their child to pray to Allah or Buddha?

:rolleyes:we're not talking about forcing anything, we're talking about allowing should someone choose.

Just because Christians are in the minority is not a reason why their God should be publicly worshipped to the exclusion of all others.

see point above.

We have a first amendment right to worship the God of our choice.

dang straight, and i wish they would let us.

RW christians have no right to foist their god on everyone else just because they are the majority.

i thought you said we were the minority:rolleyes:

The rights bestowed upon us in the first amendment are not subject to popular approval.

amen!

To insist that a Hindu pray to Jesus even for 30 seconds is an affront to his religion.

no kidding, just like telling a christian that we cant pray is an affront to ours.

The first amendment was written to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

to a large extent, yes.

What in the world is it with RW christians that makes them insist that they worship publicly?

we are called to do so

Why can't they just do it privately in a way that will offend no one.

:rolleyes: how does us worshipping offend you?
and what makes someone saying "i'm offended" the ultimate card, anywho?

guess what? i'm offended when we're not allowed to pray. i'm offended when reality show after reality show is nothing more than a baseless appeal to sex and greed, i'm offended when people on the street are foulmouthed and rude, i'm offended by protestors who burn my country's flag, and who spit on or burn images of my president, i'm offended by the fact that my ROTC unit had to stop wearing our uniforms after one of the cadets was attacked by someone who was apparently so devoted to peace he decided to become violent.
i'm Frigging offended. but do you hear me whining about it? no; i realize that we live in a society that is free, where people are allowed to do as they wish, even if i don't like it. i understand that if we turn "offending" someone into a crime, then very quickly we will have a situation not unlike Farenheit 451, and i realize that a large part of maturity (a part i sure wish the ultra-liberal anti-christian left would someday get) is to simply let things that others do that offend you slide, in recognition that they are different people than you are.

By the way, to suggest that this country was founded on christian principles is just nonsense.

It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this Great Nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
-Patrick Henry

Of all the Dispositions and Habits which lead to politica prosperity, Religion and MOrality are indespensable supports. It is impossible to rightly Govern the world without God and the Bible.
-George Washington

We have no Government amred with power capable of contending with Human passions undbridled by Morality and Religion. Avarice, Ambition, Revenge, or Gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a Moral and Religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
-John Adams

No people ought to feel greater obligations to celebrate the Goodness of the Great Disposer of Events and the Destiny of Nations than the people of hte United States... And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this Favored Land.
-James Madison

it appears some of the founding fathers would disagree with you;)

[Fasdf]

If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer.
If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer.
If I went to a ping pong! match in China, I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended.

1. I don't live in Jersalem (yay!).
2. I don't live in Baghdad.
3. I don't live in China.

Without religion we wouldn't have, oh I don't know, the dark ages?

What you may not understand is that you don't need to hand out fliers or drag people to church in order to convert them. Then again, you probably don't understand why we shouldn't be going around converting everyone (seeing as how your holy book tells you to).

Also, I'd be willing to wager those people at football games would have no problem trying to convert any non-christians.

[cpwill]

Without religion we wouldn't have, oh I don't know, the dark ages?

i believe you're thinking of the huns and the visogoths;) christianity actually kept the light of knowledge and civilization throughout those times alight;)

What you may not understand is that you don't need to hand out fliers or drag people to church in order to convert them.

do we have to? no, but such things work.

Then again, you probably don't understand why we shouldn't be going around converting everyone (seeing as how your holy book tells you to).

that's the Great Commission. what of it?

Also, I'd be willing to wager those people at football games would have no problem trying to convert any non-christians.

i'd be willing to bet the same, but i fail to see how being willing to talk to someone would necessarily be an evil thing.

[::Major_Baker::]

Easy solution:
every event gets one minute or 30 seconds of "free time"
That way people can choose to whom they pray.

And isn't a bond with God mostly mental? So why can't you use this free time to mentally pray?
The contention comes when it is done over a loudspeaker where everyone is forced to listen. If they insist on this method, perhaps they should read a prayer from Islam, Christainity, Buddha, etc.

Then football gmaes would be really long!

[Fasdf]

i believe you're thinking of the huns and the visogoths christianity actually kept the light of knowledge and civilization throughout those times alight
Sorry, almost forgot christianity is the only true religion and is superior to all others.

[Gale_Force15]

is a prayer going to kill you if god doesn't exist? no. if he does, tho, all the better.

[Achilles]

For Christ's sake, if people want to pray...let them pray.

And I am an atheist.

Such intolerance is unbelievable.

[Gale_Force15]

Sorry, almost forgot christianity is the only true religion and is superior to all others.

It is the religion most of the world believes, that has to say something. there are 2 billion christians in the world, that has to say something.

[Duo_Maxwell]

and the majority of the people in the world at one time thought the world was flat, and the earth was the center of the universe.

simply because more people believe something doesn't make it superior or even true.

The majority argument is used by those who have fundementally weak understandsing of history.

Pray all the hell you want, just keep it out of government.

[Albert]

As a Christian I refuse to feel persecuted. If I truly were, it would be an honor. In Africa and Asia people are killed for their beliefs yet they persist. That is faith in my opinion. Equating an inability to hold morning prayers over public school loud speakers, or before football games seems to be an insult to the true martyrs of faith.

[Gale_Force15]

Duo, you have to understand that people believe that God will save people. You should feel flattered when people invite you to take part in their religion, because they want you to be saved.

i myself Believe in 3 gods, even though I am mormon. the 1st is old longbeard we all know and love. the 2nd is my own personal Diety making sure that my life is a living hell, and the 3rd is satan, I mean, he DID question god, that has to be worth something.

[MikeD4o7]

believe you're thinking of the huns and the visogoths christianity actually kept the light of knowledge and civilization throughout those times alight


I think you mean lighting knowledge and civilizations on fire... incan, mayan, aztec... completely destroyed because of their "pagan, devil worshipping societies"

[Michele]

Right VOR... so we are going to play the who can shout loudest about their religion game. Then when one religion/group of people feel smaller or discriminated against, we can then maybe move on to the who can fight hardest for their religion game and at that point we can really regress as a society.

Why cant people shout about heir religions in their churchs or in own minds rather then trying to do it collectively in public places causing minorities and public tensions.

well said.

[Fasdf]

Duo, you have to understand that people believe that God will save people. You should feel flattered when people invite you to take part in their religion, because they want you to be saved.

i myself Believe in 3 gods, even though I am mormon. the 1st is old longbeard we all know and love. the 2nd is my own personal Diety making sure that my life is a living hell, and the 3rd is satan, I mean, he DID question god, that has to be worth something.
I believe that organized religion kills individual contemplation. I believe that critical thinking and self philosophizing are de-emphasized and that you are encouraged to go with what the majority believes. I believe that morality should be based on what betters a society and not on what's written in a book. I believe that thinking individually and perhaps differently is the key to social and scientific advancement, and "organized religion" is quite simply the exact opposite of that. I believe that everything you experience has an impact on you in some way or another, and seeing a huge group of people with similar interests (football) is going to have a serious impact on you if you are of a different faith.

[Michele]

I suppose this thread begs the question of why christian fanatics feel that prayer is appropriate at all times for all purposes. Why does it have to be their prayers, to their God. Suppose the decision was made to allow prayer, but to alternate the God to whom those prayers would be directed. How many of the so-called Christians would allow their child to pray to Allah or Buddha? Not many, I'll bet. Just because Christians are in the minority is not a reason why their God should be publicly worshipped to the exclusion of all others. We have a first amendment right to worship the God of our choice. RW christians have no right to foist their god on everyone else just because they are the majority. The rights bestowed upon us in the first amendment are not subject to popular approval. To insist that a Hindu pray to Jesus even for 30 seconds is an affront to his religion. The first amendment was written to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. What in the world is it with RW christians that makes them insist that they worship publicly? Why can't they just do it privately in a way that will offend no one.

By the way, to suggest that this country was founded on christian principles is just nonsense. The founding fathers did all they could do to keep religion and government seperate. The right wingers just are never satisfied with that.


I finally got this too yesterday and let me tell you it is arresting at the "benevolent" exclusion of all good books mind you. I never realized this but christains seem to believe they corner the whole world market on the truth. They are the ones that know God the best. And therefore they won't be happy till they create a theocracy in the world while they will demand we call it a democracy because afterall that theocracy will address all their rights... at the oppression of all other rights which will be denounced or outlawed on the based of a morality based in ---- get this :eek: the truest word of God.

And this is the best part see... because most true christians seem to be creationists (though I am sure not all) who appear to have this ability to suspend all logic, and in this complete suspension of logic they don't get just how much this resembles the criticisms they have about their least favored religion of all (and this criticism is not always based in any working knowledge of either Islam or the kora) while the Jews are somewhat tolerated even though I am told by Christains the Jews have strayed from :eek: the book. And it is kind of like a hall of mirrors because Christian understand very well the concept of a Jewish only society calling it democracy... because well all stems from the same form of hubris I guess...

And afterall one little Eastern European Jewish theocracy doesn't bother the Christains for in the end christianizing the world will prevail especially once they get America on the pogram... and without any logic.... well this makes perfect sense to American Christains all because they feel persecuted because of that one school prayer....

our father who art in heaven... it is another form of righteous propaganda... I am sorry God it is not your name I use in vain.

[Michele]

Without religion we wouldn't have, oh I don't know, the dark ages?



that is a thought, which might mean there would never have been anti-Semitism unfortunately even without religion we still would have had h empire builders and imperalists, though it would have been harder to justify with out God on anybodies side and well you know that Mohammad he is he worst of them all so I guess that islamo fascism would still be rising to wave across the planet you know we have to get that in every chance about those muslims taking over everything.... but god forbid we mention the mossad.

see what I mean about that thing with the suspension of logic

[Fasdf]

that is a thought, which might mean there would never have been anti-Semitism unfortunately even without religion we still would have had h empire builders and imperalists, though it would have been harder to justify with out God on anybodies side and well you know that Mohammad he is he worst of them all so I guess that islamo fascism would still be rising to wave across the planet you know we have to get that in every chance about those muslims taking over everything.... but god forbid we mention the mossad.

see what I mean about that thing with the suspension of logic
Woah nelly! That semi-old post was a "ask a stupid question get a stupid answer" sort of deal at the time of posting. You're pretty good at having a conversation with yourself btw.

I don't think anyone can describe a world without religion very (or even sort of) accurately.

[Michele]

For Christ's sake, if people want to pray...let them pray.

And I am an atheist.

Such intolerance is unbelievable.

very good solution... very good... but see... I wonder how the Christains in america would feel about that...(I mean the ones so bent out of shape because of this prayer issue) for you see silent prayer in school ... well... I am not sure they like that idea... and well I don't know if the Christains would go for an innovative idea that everybody says their prayer their way at the same time you know in homeroom because it is not as if America doesn't want Christians to pray. They can pray. It is just that do they have to pray in homeroom? And it seems yes they do. They must and they will fight for the right because you see the issue really isn't about prayer in school. It is about the right to pray over the right's of all other religions BECAUSE :eek: America is a Christain nation so afterall Christains should get to be the ones to pray only their prayer out loud in homeroom....on the basis of morality so then all the corruption would weaken and so on and so forth...

[Michele]

Woah nelly! That semi-old post was a "ask a stupid question get a stupid answer" sort of deal at the time of posting. You're pretty good at having a conversation with yourself btw.

I don't think anyone can describe a world without religion very (or even sort of) accurately.

what are you talking about? I am not talking to myself I am responding to others posts... what you didn't like my simplistic post ... you want me to throw down 6000 words on it... Jeez... I do that all the time in ME... I am kind of relaxing for the moment...

I agree it is difficult to describe a world without religion there are many details to consider like would Jesus have been cruxified if there wasn't religion or even born for that matter... perhaps if there wasn't religion there never would have been bordello's in the first place... but I guess the cosmos is a kind of religious experience all it's own one might consider that is where all the murmering started from the most sacred to the most superstitious... in some indigenous tribal cultures it bred a kind of reverence for all life forms even branches from trees, elements, wind and rain every little thing had some form of power symbol... that one had to reconcile with some form of honor...

but the fanatical discourse is for the birds and you know I wouldn't even wish it on the birds... I like birds too much...

[Michele]

It is the religion most of the world believes, that has to say something. there are 2 billion christians in the world, that has to say something.

Yes but I thought there were also 1.8 billion Muslims in the world? Of course it says something, but what?

[MikeD4o7]

The amount of people that believe something shows pretty much nothing. The fact that the vast majority of the world's population is completely uneducated should maybe tell us that when such a great number of people believe something... it's an especially good time to be skeptical of it.

[Michele]

that is an interesting point of view ... from the standpoint of that saying... religion being the opiate of the people... it requires the memorizing of doctrine and interpretations that pass as definitive... and rituals out of step with time.. not that they are bad... but I am not sure it encourages one to think on their own so it can also be a form of escapism... a regime that becomes engrained and if there is a form of exclusivity being reinforced within the doctrine... well... religion has its place... I love coming to verse of my own accord but I like language and history so they all hold something great... it is the dogma and the doctrine and the .... truest word of god ... and the shepherding of people by certain moral restrictions... and the politics...

but your point of view as merit in terms of the flocks... and yet ... I don't wish to take religion away from the world... but obviously it can be problematic... especially when it becomes clear the hypocrisies intrinsic within interpretation once one wishes to impose their will upon another....

Human beings I guess are social animals not meant to be alone... something outside of ourselves for those that can harness it brings comfort...

who knows... is it religion that is problematic or the politics of conquesting?

[DeathMonkey]

http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/

[eugene40]

i believe you're thinking of the huns and the visogoths;) christianity actually kept the light of knowledge and civilization throughout those times alight;).


I am sorry are you talking about the same group of people that killed visionaries such as galieo,,, Martin Luther,,,, Countless other,,, who knows what the people that have been killed in the name of christianity could have changed the world,, who knows where we could be as a society as a world as anything... Oh yea kept the light shining all right.... I think you mean kept THEIR light shining.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Duo, you have to understand that people believe that God will save people. You should feel flattered when people invite you to take part in their religion, because they want you to be saved.

i myself Believe in 3 gods, even though I am mormon. the 1st is old longbeard we all know and love. the 2nd is my own personal Diety making sure that my life is a living hell, and the 3rd is satan, I mean, he DID question god, that has to be worth something.

:lol: Sure they do. Organized religion is a curse upon humanity. I cannot support any organized religion because what it has done, what it is doing, and what it will do. I will not submit myself the indoctrination of organized religion. I will not give up my beliefs to accept without any shred of irrational proof the beliefs of the church. I do not see organized religion as you do because, unlike you, I see it's outreaching hands stained with the blood of millions. No thank you, genocide isn't something I support.

I don't believe in any form of organized religious God. God to me doesn't have a name, doesn't have a gender, doesn't have a form. Nor does it "save." It merely exists in a transcneded plane of existance. Nor it is perfect. Or just.

[Jard]

No honestly duo, all the fighting over the centuries it was just to help people, :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: just to let them know... a way of passing on the message

i believe in a higher being.... but forcing it on to others, as if thats what any decent god wanted us to do, fight over him or force any message upon another :rolleyes:

if the message is good people will accept it without needing it to be "passed" on directly. the person will become curious and find out for himself, thus being a lot healthier way of finding out.

[cpwill]

:lol: Sure they do. Organized religion is a curse upon humanity. I cannot support any organized religion because what it has done, what it is doing, and what it will do. I will not submit myself the indoctrination of organized religion. I will not give up my beliefs to accept without any shred of irrational proof the beliefs of the church. I do not see organized religion as you do because, unlike you, I see it's outreaching hands stained with the blood of millions. No thank you, genocide isn't something I support.

I don't believe in any form of organized religious God. God to me doesn't have a name, doesn't have a gender, doesn't have a form. Nor does it "save." It merely exists in a transcneded plane of existance. Nor it is perfect. Or just.

:raises eyebrow:

organized political systems known as "states" are a curse upon humanity. i as an individual cannot support any such entity because of what they have done and what they will do. I will not give up any of my ability to decide for myself what i should do just because the "government" of the "State" tells me it's "illegal" to have a monopoly, or beat my wife, or drive on the right side of the road. I do not vote because i do not see the system like you do, instead i see the "States"' hands to be covered to the elbow in the blood and pain and misery of human kind.
sorry, but genocide, mass rape, murder, and oppression are things i can't support.

i don't believe in any kind of organized or even noticable "public will". to me, the Public Will (will of the people, representative democracy, majority vote, whatever you want to call it.) isn't something that can be identified or articulated, it's just sort of this transcendental feeling, ya know?

[MikeD4o7]

The problem is rooted in the nature of the organizations. Democracies and science, as opposed to religion, are designed for change. As society evolves, the democracy evolves with it and is constantly reshaped. As new scientific theories arise, our understanding of the natural world through science constantly changes and is open to that change. Religion, on the other hand... is not built to change. Most religions that I know of claim to be the sole harbingers of ultimate truth. Can't be questioned, can't be changed... just the way it is.

[cpwill]

:raises eyebrow:

you think religion hasn't changed?

[MikeD4o7]

you think religion hasn't changed?

No, just different parts are emphasized. I have yet to see a Christian, Jewish, or Islamic group come out and point to a particular part of their scripture and say "ok... this is just wrong... we, as a society, know better than this now... and this passage should be abandoned".

Practices have changed, sure... but the belief in the sacred text as the ultimate truth that cannot be wrong has not.

[cpwill]

isn't reemphasis change just as much, though? it is change in fact if not in word.

furthermore, i find that religion has changed a heckuva lot, specifically in what role religions see's as it's natural niche in society.

[MikeD4o7]

isn't reemphasis change just as much, though? it is change in fact if not in word.

furthermore, i find that religion has changed a heckuva lot, specifically in what role religions see's as it's natural niche in society.


Yeah you're right... I should have restated my original point in a different way. That democracies and science are built for change, but religions are not. It doesn't mean they haven't changed... but rather that they never expect to. In contrast for example, scientists are always ready, or should be, to give up an old theory when a better one comes along... it actually the way it has to work... it's part of science. Changes in religion are more difficult I think because part of most religions is having conviction that what you already have there in front of you is the unchanging truth.

[cpwill]

which doesn't at all mean that we can't grow in our understanding of it, nor how it should be applied.;)

[cpwill]

that's really just all i wanted to point out...

[BFPierce]

cpwill-do you understand the concept that the author of a thread attempts to elicit comments from other whistlestoppers regarding the issue he/she has chosen to discuss? Apparently not, because in your critique of my remarks, you completely changed the meaning of VoR's thread, which was what I was addressing.

No one cares if an individual person decides to pray before a game or an exam. The argument espoused by VoR is that it is okay to do so en masse and in an organized way. He makes the point that others should be willing to give them 30 seconds because they are in the majority. His argument is weak and goes against constitutional law. But, I make no argument that an individual prayer should be quashed. I don't even see a way to accomplish it, even if we wanted to.

[DeathMonkey]

"Keep your religion off my doorstep, I'll keep my dog**** off your lawn." - unknown

Its like the argument with the Confederate flag. You may have the right to fly it, you may view it differently than others do, as a positive symbol of history, but why do you feel the need to fly it from the Capitol? Slap a damn sticker on your truck and leave it alone.

Get you a Jesus fish, put it on your damn Durango, and shut the hell up. I am sick unto death of this sanctimonious, "we're so persecuted" nonsense.

BTW, isnt China supposed to be an atheist state? With what, 4 Billion people? I guess we win :devil:

OK, obnoxious post above aside, heres the deal.

The ONLY WAY to ensure religious freedom, is to eliminate it from government completely. Period, Thats what our Founding Fathers designed into the Constitution. That way, if there are no PRO-religion laws, you cannot have ANTI-religion laws. If something goes against your religion DONT DO IT. It aint against mine, what right do you have to take away my freedoms based on YOUR religion? Thats TYRANNY.
Laws are to be collective agreements that make life and living together possible and, hopefully, ensure "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

If you want to pray during a football game, a math quiz, a fishing trip, your DUI court date, go right ahead. As I have said a gabillion times, I respect personal faith, but I believe it should be just that. Personal. Keep it too your person. I dont go around saying "There is no God! Let us be thankful for physics!" at football games, people dont thank "the cold unfeeling, unconscious Universe" at the Grammies, no one says "let us all bow our heads for the invocation of Nothingness" at Commencement addresses.
I just dont understand why you people are so whiny, need so much public validation of power, and can't just keep that stuff to yourselves. I sure wish the extremist Muslims would.

[Redheat]

If you want to pray during a football game, a math quiz, a fishing trip, your DUI court date, go right ahead. As I have said a gabillion times, I respect personal faith, but I believe it should be just that. Personal. Keep it too your person. I dont go around saying "There is no God! Let us be thankful for physics!" at football games, people dont thank "the cold unfeeling, unconscious Universe" at the Grammies, no one says "let us all bow our heads for the invocation of Nothingness" at Commencement addresses.
I just dont understand why you people are so whiny, need so much public validation of power, and can't just keep that stuff to yourselves. I sure wish the extremist Muslims would.

:clap: Can I get an Amen from the audience!

[BFPierce]

Amen!

Now let me have a hallelulah!

[Fasdf]

:clap: Can I get an Amen from the audience!
HOOHAH!

err Amen. :clap:

[Underling]

:raises eyebrow:


sorry, but genocide, mass rape, murder, and oppression are things i can't support.



You say you can't support those things but you seem to strongly support a religion who's history in written in blood?Isn't that a little hypocritical? :confused:

[Duo_Maxwell]

:raises eyebrow:

organized political systems known as "states" are a curse upon humanity.

Won't disagree with that. However, they are a necessary evil, if man was truly alturistic, government wouldn't be necessay, anarchy would be the highest and most useful form of human collective.

I as an individual cannot support any such entity because of what they have done and what they will do.

Then why are you a proud citizen of America? :rolleyes: Where my post was sincere, your's is simply a weak attempt to satirize mine. However, the hypocracy shows though.

I will not give up any of my ability to decide for myself what i should do just because the "government" of the "State" tells me it's "illegal" to have a monopoly, or beat my wife, or drive on the right side of the road.

I prove my point.

I do not vote because i do not see the system like you do, instead i see the "States"' hands to be covered to the elbow in the blood and pain and misery of human kind.

Ah, but I know you vote. This form of cynicism doesn't work when it goes contrary to what a user has previously said, and regularly preaches. This only works when it is actually what the user believes.

sorry, but genocide, mass rape, murder, and oppression are things i can't support.

Then why do you support organized religion?

Cpwill, it doesn't work when you don't believe it and it fails even harder when I know you practice support of government.

[Chelle]

I suppose this thread begs the question of why Christian fanatics feel that prayer is appropriate at all times for all purposes.

Christian fanatics?! :rolleyes:

So.... if someone chooses to pray, that automatically makes them a fanatic, huh? :eek:

Holy smokes.



Chelle

[Ronnieraygun]

"Keep your religion off my doorstep, I'll keep my dog**** off your lawn." - unknown


That would be a good thing, because the next time I find your dog using my lawn for a toilet, you'll find it's skin haning on your front door.:D

[MikeD4o7]

Can both sides agree that each individual football player should be allowed to pray before a game if they choose, but that it's not necessary for a prayer to be blasted over the PA or from a megaphone?

[cpwill]

You say you can't support those things but you seem to strongly support a religion who's history in written in blood?Isn't that a little hypocritical? :confused:

because of the points i am trying to make to duo; which are:

Won't disagree with that. However, they are a necessary evil, if man was truly alturistic, government wouldn't be necessay, anarchy would be the highest and most useful form of human collective.

yup, and if every man was capable within himself of devoting all of his time to ministries while producing the same (or greater) effect than he would if he and several of his brothers joined together and cooperated, we wouldn't need the church for anything other than community. both government and organized religion are the results of the fact that man is neither wholly good nor wholly self-suffecient.

Then why are you a proud citizen of America?

because i have the ability to not simply focus on the evil moments in "state" history, unlike the manner in which you are choosing to look at organized religion.

Where my post was sincere, your's is simply a weak attempt to satirize mine.

;)actually, i thought it was a pretty good attempt:)

However, the hypocracy shows though.

and what hypocricy would that be?

I prove my point.

i believe you were going for "i rest my case", however, i fail to see how me tying in an opinion of government's illigetemacy to your notion of organized religions' illigetemacy "proves your point".

Ah, but I know you vote.

exactly, and i highly suspect that you will be a fairly consistent voter yourself.

although with your exacting standards i'm suprised you'd be willing to "soil your hands" with something so dirty and bloody as the state.....

This form of cynicism doesn't work when it goes contrary to what a user has previously said, and regularly preaches. This only works when it is actually what the user believes.

actually, no, it is supposed to be the exact contrary to what a user has previously said and believed. thus, by making an extremely foolish case for what the user is arguing now, he instead convinces people of it's opposite, which is his true opinion anyway. that's what's known as "satire".:)

[DeathMonkey]

OK, what the hell are you two arguing about??

anf BTW, Ronnie, I'm emailing that response to PETA :eek:












and when they show up I'm gonna skin em!

[Fasdf]

yup, and if every man was capable within himself of devoting all of his time to ministries while producing the same (or greater) effect than he would if he and several of his brothers joined together and cooperated, we wouldn't need the church for anything other than community. both government and organized religion are the results of the fact that man is neither wholly good nor wholly self-suffecient.

The only reason you can get a bunch of faithful people together is because you can wave god in front of them and they'll run after like a bull against a bullfighter. There's no reason these same people can't do the same without their silly blind following.

[cpwill]

LOL, and you know this because you are a member of what church?

[Duo_Maxwell]

although with your exacting standards i'm suprised you'd be willing to "soil your hands" with something so dirty and bloody as the state.....

At least the state attempts legislation aganist that and condements, imprisons and kills those who break the laws. The church says not to do it and then goes and does it itself. The state may be bloody, but the church is swimming in it.


actually, no, it is supposed to be the exact contrary to what a user has previously said and believed. thus, by making an extremely foolish case for what the user is arguing now, he instead convinces people of it's opposite, which is his true opinion anyway. that's what's known as "satire".

Except that may case worked better. ;) Religion is hypocritical in nature and sees no probem with this. The state is hypocritical in nature and tries not to be that way. Quite a difference.

[cpwill]

At least the state attempts legislation aganist that and condements, imprisons and kills those who break the laws. The church says not to do it and then goes and does it itself. The state may be bloody, but the church is swimming in it.

lol, weak at best.;) duo; you are trying to fight honorably, but you are fighting a losing battle here.

A) you are assuming a liberal human-rights-respecting stable state; something that, to say the least, is a bit of a rarity in history.
B) you are assuming that the church is not self-regulatory; methinks you are over-depending upon the example of the hiding of the priests; and that you are somehow using the catholic church as your model for all organized religion.
C) the state has killed, tortured, raped, pillaged, and burned far more people than the church ever has, even at it's bloodiest moments. you're last analogy then, is innacurate.

Except that may case worked better. ;) Religion is hypocritical in nature and sees no probem with this.

care to tell me how A) religion is hypocritcal by nature and B) we see no problem with the hypocrisy?

The state is hypocritical in nature and tries not to be that way.

:laughter: :laughter: :laughter:

[Duo_Maxwell]

A) you are assuming a liberal human-rights-respecting stable state; something that, to say the least, is a bit of a rarity in history.

Hey, I never said government was perfect! Hey, at least most governments try to respect human rights. Can't say that about 99% of religions.


B) you are assuming that the church is not self-regulatory; methinks you are over-depending upon the example of the hiding of the priests; and that you are somehow using the catholic church as your model for all organized religion.

Why shouldn't I? Islam rarely regulates it's own problems. Many of the Christian sects of the past didn't. Perhaps the asian religions are the closest, but even then it was questionable at times.


C) the state has killed, tortured, raped, pillaged, and burned far more people than the church ever has, even at it's bloodiest moments. you're last analogy then, is innacurate.

But often the state wouldn't have killed those people if religion hadn't played a part in those decisions. Rarely has a secular goverment gone genocidal. It's often the religious tainted ones that do. Crusades anyone? Those were pretty bad, all in the name of religion.


care to tell me how A) religion is hypocritcal by nature and B) we see no problem with the hypocrisy?

Um, look at the numerous lists of where the bible/koran/tora are hypocritcal (not to mention the word of religious figures), i'm sure you can find them anywehere online. Notice few people speaking out aganist religion, and those who are are immeditely bashed by fundemnetalists and evangelicists. Too many people think religion is pure. Too many think it is consistant. Too many are fools.

:laughter: :laughter: :laughter:

Give me two good reasons to support any organized religion.

[cpwill]

Hey, I never said government was perfect! Hey, at least most governments try to respect human rights. Can't say that about 99% of religions.

:lol: wow, oh wow.

most examples of The State have tried to respect human rights? :rolleyes: throughout history, say, starting with the city-states of Sumeria, what percentage of governments, do you think, have tried to respect human rights?

and where do you get this idea of 99% of religions not respecting them? you, sir, are engaging in hyperbole of the highest order. give me a list of the major world religions and proof that they do not respect human rights.

Why shouldn't I? Islam rarely regulates it's own problems.

in the present, no, however, in the past they've been highly self-regulatory.

Many of the Christian sects of the past didn't.

what, you mean like excomunication, or punishment of those who stole from the church etc?

Perhaps the asian religions are the closest, but even then it was questionable at times.

how so.

But often the state wouldn't have killed those people if religion hadn't played a part in those decisions.

and even more times the state wouldn't have killed those people if power and greed hadn't played a part of the decisions. rome going through carthage was hardly a theological dispute, and the mongolians sweeping away the population of central asia was hardly motivated by a desire for piety.

Rarely has a secular goverment gone genocidal.

apparently you've never heard of the USSR?

It's often the religious tainted ones that do. Crusades anyone? Those were pretty bad, all in the name of religion.

actually the crusades were a bit more about land and money as well as relieving both population pressure and islamic militant pressure; in short, it was a counter-conquest given a religious cloaking. however, i'll put the crusades up against the japanese in china any day of the week.

Um, look at the numerous lists of where the bible/koran/tora are hypocritcal (not to mention the word of religious figures), i'm sure you can find them anywehere online.

what, you're talking about biblican inconsistancies? :lol: oh, i thought for a second there you were talking about something serious. oh no, there's no problem with inconsistincies within the texts.

Notice few people speaking out aganist religion, and those who are are immeditely bashed by fundemnetalists and evangelicists.

notice a few people attacking a group of other people and recieving at worst counter-fire. if i spoke out against (say) teenage male americans who think they have the wisdom or intellegence to discuss international events, no doubt you would feel called to defend yourself. i hardly feel sorry for those who pick a fight only to find that they are in one.

Too many people think religion is pure.

no, we think God is pure. religion (as, in, organized churches) is a whole nother matter.

Too many think it is consistant. Too many are fools.

too many are fools. some of them choose to debate by making exagerating statements and then answering countercharges by using laughing emoticons.....

:laughter: :laughter: :laughter:

Give me two good reasons to support any organized religion.

well heck, why do you support the state?

here's my two reasons for supporting an organized religion.

1. Christianity is and has always been meant to be lived within a community.

2. Organized religions are capable of doing much more good than simply a group of individuals all doing their own thing. For instance, I by myself could not send much in the way of medical help to africa, but my 200-member church sure can do a heckuva lot more.

[DRMIZER]

don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December.

I don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution. Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home from the game. "But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue. Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles. According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1. So what would you expect - somebody chanting Hare Krishna?
If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer.
If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer.
If I went to a ping pong! match in China, I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit.
When in Rome...
"But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them? Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer. Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the world's foundations.

Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. God, help us. And if that last sentence offends you, well..........just sue me! The silent majority has been silent too long. It's time we let that one or two who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care what they want. It is time the majority rules! It's time we tell them, you don't have to pray; you don't have to say the pledge of allegiance; you don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will honor your right. But by golly, you are no longer going to take our rights away! We are fighting back, and we WILL WIN! After all, the God you have the right to denounce is on our side! God ! bless us one and all, especially those who denounce Him. God bless America, despite all her faults, still the greatest nation of all. God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship God.

May 2004 be the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our families and institutions. Keep looking up...... In God WE TrustI think you're stretching the point to make a point. First no one is taking away ALL OF YOUR RIGHTS. Christians today are much more feverent and outspoken in their beliefs today than when I was a kid. And, no one is telling you to cease praying. If so, I don't know who they are. Even the ACLU would be on your side if that was true.

And your stand out point is that "After all, the God you have the right to denounce is on our side!" I believe the Muslems say precisely the same thing which is in direct opposition to your statement. Isn't this the fuel Osama Yo Mama is preaching to win that war? So, whose side is God on. . . . . .really?

I really don't believe anyone is trying to take away your rights as a Christian. I hate to bring it up again but the ACLU would be on your side on this one as well. If the Christians, as all other religions, keep their faith in their place of worship and in their homes, I see no problem. . . .The rights issue comes into play when your religious beliefs enter into the open and free market place. And if that has to be to make you happy, then so should the Jews, the Muslems, the Bhuddists, et.al. It becomes a matter of one religion stepping on the feet of other religions. This isn't fair to the others and should not be demanded by the Christians alone. Belileve it or not, atheists in this country have a right to be spared from religions they don't believe in in the market place as well.

No one is taking away any rights of any religions. They can practice in their place of worship, in their homes, etc. Other religions are not making an issue out of anyone taking their rights. You, the Christians, are certainly the "majority" in this country but this does not permit you to take over the community, the courthouses, and other public venues. One should respect all religious faiths because we really never know which side God is truly on. ;)

If what you say is true, the other ethnicities and religious persuasions are wasting their time worshiping and praising their god, which I'm sure you would not want to be part of. . . . .

If your personal religion is so weak that before a public event you absolutely must pray, perhaps you should have done it before you left home. Why does YOUR prayer HAVE TO BE PUBLIC? I don't hear any other religions crying over this. (I believe the NT has someting to say about this very thing.)

[DRMIZER]

It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this Great Nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
-Patrick Henry

Of all the Dispositions and Habits which lead to politica prosperity, Religion and MOrality are indespensable supports. It is impossible to rightly Govern the world without God and the Bible.
-George Washington

We have no Government amred with power capable of contending with Human passions undbridled by Morality and Religion. Avarice, Ambition, Revenge, or Gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a Moral and Religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
-John Adams

No people ought to feel greater obligations to celebrate the Goodness of the Great Disposer of Events and the Destiny of Nations than the people of hte United States... And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this Favored Land.
-James Madison

it appears some of the founding fathers would disagree with you;)

Isn't it a shame the founding fathers didn't place their religious beliefs in any of the founding documents. No mention of Jesus, Moses or the bible for that matter. They sure could have solved all this spattering back and forth. Makes me believe there were more than Christians in the room, especially Tom Jefferson, author of the Dec. of Ind. I forgot the signers to the Constitution and Dec. of Ind. They must have been asleep that day.

[DRMIZER]

1. I don't live in Jersalem (yay!).
2. I don't live in Baghdad.
3. I don't live in China.

Without religion we wouldn't have, oh I don't know, the dark ages?

What you may not understand is that you don't need to hand out fliers or drag people to church in order to convert them. Then again, you probably don't understand why we shouldn't be going around converting everyone (seeing as how your holy book tells you to).

Also, I'd be willing to wager those people at football games would have no problem trying to convert any non-christians.What you say may be true but they don't permit other religions so it probably isn't a contest as it is here!!

[DRMIZER]

It is the religion most of the world believes, that has to say something. there are 2 billion christians in the world, that has to say something.WRONG! There are larger religions than christianity.

[USA-1]

VOR makes a good point.
Our founding four fathers are religious as well as many of our founding civil rights leaders.With out religion our country would not be the way it is today.Yes I do know that there were many bad apples of the bunch who used religion to screw others,so do not try to argue the negative causes of religion to me.
The founding fathers were also smart enough to keep religion and government separate.
Religion Date Founded Sacred Texts Membership % of World
Christianity 30 CE The Bible 2,015 million 33% (dropping) 5
Islam 622 CE Qur'an & Hadith 1,215 million 20% (growing) 5
No religion * No date None 925 million 15% (dropping) 5
Hinduism 1,500 BCE The Veda 786 million 13% (stable) 5
Buddhism 523 BCE The Tripitaka 362 million 6% (stable) 5
Atheists No date None 211 million 4%
Chinese folk rel. 270 BCE None 188 million 4%
New Asian rel. Various Various 106 million 2%
Tribal Religions, Animism Prehistory Oral tradition 91 million 2%
Other Various Various 19 million <1%
Judaism No consensus Torah, Talmud 18 million <1%
Sikhism 1500 CE Guru Granth Sahib 16 million <1%
Shamanists Prehistory Oral Tradition 12 million <1%
Spiritism 7 million <1%
Confucianism 520 BCE Lun Yu 5 million <1%
Baha'i Faith 1863 CE Most Holy Book 4 million <1%
Jainism 570 BCE Siddhanta, Pakrit 3 million <1%
Shinto 500 CE Kojiki, Nohon Shoki 3 million <1%
Wicca 800 BCE, 1940 CE None 500,000? <1%
Zoroastrianism No consensus Avesta 0.2 million <1

[Duo_Maxwell]

most examples of The State have tried to respect human rights?

In theory, they try to. Can't say that about religion.

Name me a religion that respects the rights of other religions and hasn't done anything to murder/rape/pillage/etc members of other religions. Buddhism? Oh wait no. The only real pacifist religion hasn't even done that.

what, you mean like excomunication, or punishment of those who stole from the church etc?

Often those excommunicated were those who stood aganist the church's excess, immorality, and questionable acts. Yeah, regulatory aganist those who say something bad aganist us. :lol:

how so.

When the leader of a state is the leader of the church, how regulatory do you think it's going to be?

Apparently you've never heard the term rarely.

Something tells me you have no problem putting each and every problem of the church into some form of context to make it seem just, yet have no problem putting the problems of the state as horrific events. :rolleyes:

Indoctrination is a bad thing. Who indoctrinates people? Tolitarian nations and organized religion. It's appalling that you'd rather accept the beliefs of the church, those completely without provable basises, and with vast historical evidence of being wrong on more then one account.

we think God is pure

Is pure perfect?

well heck, why do you support the state?

Because I have little choice. Anarchy doesn't work with this society. What do I have left? It's a sh**y choice I must admit, but I have little choice.

1. Christianity is and has always been meant to be lived within a community.

And I can't live within a community if I don't support christanity? :lol:
That's ludicruous.

2. Organized religions are capable of doing much more good than simply a group of individuals all doing their own thing. For instance, I by myself could not send much in the way of medical help to africa, but my 200-member church sure can do a heckuva lot more.

True, but so can a secular organization known as the red cross, a group who doesn't try to convert people and has a clear purpose not tainted with the foul hand of organized religion. There are two alternatives to your reasons. Why should I pick organized religion over the others?

Oh Wait, I shouldn't.

I don't understand how people can simply give up reason and logic to follow organized religion.

[Texsand]

Oh for the love of God for the last time the Founders had no intent to establish a theocratic national government.



"The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity.

This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments. Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."



John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."

James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria. (http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/mccart.htm)

The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous.

[Underling]

In theory, they try to. Can't say that about religion.

Name me a religion that respects the rights of other religions and hasn't done anything to murder/rape/pillage/etc members of other religions. Buddhism? Oh wait no. The only real pacifist religion hasn't even done that.



Many (if not all) of the differeant branches of Paganism?

[Duo_Maxwell]

Ah Paganism, the very notion Christians deride (while adopting their holidays and celebrations).

You may have a point here, but I don't remember Paganism to be organized like Christianity or Catholicism.

[Fasdf]

Oh for the love of God for the last time the Founders had no intent to establish a theocratic national government.
Can't say that about the citizens of today.

[USA-1]

Why do christians want everyone to believe the same? Is it money, power, or do they really believe that they are trying to save them?

[Fasdf]

Why do christians want everyone to believe the same? Is it money, power, or do they really believe that they are trying to save them?
It depends on who you're talking to. My parents went :eek: when I told them I didn't believe in god. They're still trying to 'save' me.

[Triple_R]

Why shouldn't we believe that, USA1?

Is that not what Jesus Himself stated?

I hope that your parents are successful in their endeavours, Fasdf... there is no good reason to not believe in God.

[USA-1]

Why shouldn't we believe that, USA1?

Is that not what Jesus Himself stated?

I hope that your parents are successful in their endeavours, Fasdf... there is no good reason to not believe in God.
I really don't know what Jesus stated. His words have been twisted around for centuries. Yes, there is a good reason not to believe in something that doesn't exist. What is the difference between religion and a mind controlling cult? Religion, after all was invented by man.

[Triple_R]

And what would that reason be, USA1?

Not all religions were invented by man - some (at least two) were created by God.

[USA-1]

The same reason why I don't believe in the Easter bunny, Santa , that the earth is flat and that if I jump off a building I can fly..
What two were invented by God?

[DeathMonkey]

I hope that your parents are successful in their endeavours, Fasdf... there is no good reason to not believe in God.

Top Ten Reasons to Not Believe in God:

10. No longer sitting next to VoR in church.

9. Football Sundays guilt free!

8. "I just saved a bunch of money... by eliminating Christmas! Guess what kids, yer going to college after all!"

7. No more gloomy jewelry depicting an ancient Roman execution device.

6. "Living in Sin" is now an address in Nevada.

5. If fleeing Judaism, Friday nights are now returned to watching the new season of Monk. Unfortunately, temple is still preferrable to watching NASCAR on Fox.

4. No longer beholden to freaks in funny hats.

3. Kids no longer need that "special treatment in the rectory". Millions saved on therapy.

2. Now, no one to blame but myself.

1. Because that sadistic bastard hated us all anyways.

[airman57]

Top Ten Reasons to Not Believe in God:

10. No longer sitting next to VoR in church.

9. Football Sundays guilt free!

8. "I just saved a bunch of money... by eliminating Christmas! Guess what kids, yer going to college after all!"

7. No more gloomy jewelry depicting an ancient Roman execution device.

6. "Living in Sin" is now an address in Nevada.

5. If fleeing Judaism, Friday nights are now returned to watching the new season of Monk. Unfortunately, temple is still preferrable to watching NASCAR on Fox.

4. No longer beholden to freaks in funny hats.

3. Kids no longer need that "special treatment in the rectory". Millions saved on therapy.

2. Now, no one to blame but myself.

1. Because that sadistic bastard hated us all anyways.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[Duo_Maxwell]

there is no good reason to not believe in God.

Oh let's see (this isn't a funny one)

1) Using rational, individual thought to logically deduct what you believe to be true, not just accepting what the Church tells you to believe.
2) Severe lack of any evidence proving creationism is even remotely true
3) Realization that no one is going to "save" your sorry butt, and that you must do it yourself.
4) Not buying into the hypocritical notion that we believe because we want to believe, but we don't fear Hell, but it exists and it's the worst place to be. Sure you don't. :lol:
5) Not having to spend hours at Church!

Why should we believe in a "God?" (FYI, I believe in a god, just not the one organized religion idoctrinates people into believing)

[cpwill]

Oh let's see (this isn't a funny one)

1) Using rational, individual thought to logically deduct what you believe to be true, not just accepting what the Church tells you to believe.

....helped me to Christ

2) Severe lack of any evidence proving creationism is even remotely true

because as we all know there is no earth therefore any idea that it might have been created is bogus.:)

3) Realization that no one is going to "save" your sorry butt, and that you must do it yourself.

which unfortunately is impossible, as i can't think of a single person in my entire life that i've ever met that was perfect.

4) Not buying into the hypocritical notion that we believe because we want to believe, but we don't fear Hell, but it exists and it's the worst place to be. Sure you don't. :lol:

dang straight i don't. why should i? i'm not headed there:). i am worried about a few of my family and friends; but ultimately all i can do is let them make their own decisions.

5) Not having to spend hours at Church!

for real; who wants a community of folks who love you like family and are there for you no matter what?

Why should we believe in a "God?" (FYI, I believe in a god, just not the one organized religion idoctrinates people into believing)

for which (other than the fairly weak "but people have misused organized religion" argument) you have yet to explain why it is that you think you are the smartest theologian ever to exist. else, why reject all their works?

[Duo_Maxwell]

helped me to Christ

But it also has led many away from any sort of "God." Do you believe what the church says about God?

Creationism is a joke.

which unfortunately is impossible, as i can't think of a single person in my entire life that i've ever met that was perfect.

Pefection is irrevelant. Prayer is the last sanuctary of the doomed. If you're going to save your sorry *** you're going to have to do it yourself, and if you do, it's because of you, not some "god" and if you fail, well, it's your fault, not some "god's." I'm tired of people saying "god will save you," tell that to the Jews who were murdered by the Nazis. If you're going to live, it's because you have the will, not because some "God" wants you to. Get some god**** self responsibility. God is a scapegoat for those unable to accept their own credit with their own failures.

dang straight i don't. why should i?

What is the point of enternal damnation if not to inspire fear? People believe because they are afraid. Instead of doing it for the reasons religion tells you, people do it because they are afraid.

who wants a community of folks who love you like family and are there for you no matter what?

I can get that somewhere else, with spending less time. :)

for which (other than the fairly weak "but people have misused organized religion" argument) you have yet to explain why it is that you think you are the smartest theologian ever to exist. else, why reject all their works?

I'm not. Craig can take out anyone here in a religious argument, luckily, I'm roughly on his side. I make consience efforts NOT to debate him because he is expotentially smarter then I am. Why should I reject their works?
Well, let's see, beyond using them to murder, rape, pillage and essentially do evil to the world time and time again, organized religion retards the advance of humans. It has placed obstacles to learning, it has placed obstacles to critical thinking, it has placed obstacles to exploration. Anything that actively slows human progress should be rejected. Organized religion also actively discriminates aganist people, seeking to revoke civil rights, revoke life from minorities, and push down all other morals and ethics, even when they are pragmatically correct.

So unless you like actively stopping the progression of human thought, learning, scientific advancement and freedom, sure, accept organized religion.

[cpwill]

But it also has led many away from any sort of "God." Do you believe what the church says about God?

which church;)

Creationism is a joke.

the science of a 7 -day approach certainly is, but the idea that God created the universe and everything in it is anything but.

Pefection is irrevelant. Prayer is the last sanuctary of the doomed.

and the first, if they're smart:)

If you're going to save your sorry *** you're going to have to do it yourself,

which, since it is impossible for you, is going to be rather difficult;)

and if you fail, well, it's your fault, not some "god's."

that would be the point of free will, yes.

I'm tired of people saying "god will save you," tell that to the Jews who were murdered by the Nazis.

you appear to be confusing spiritual measures with physical ones. that's like saying the jews must not have been smart, after all, they got killed by the nazis.

God is a scapegoat for those unable to accept their own credit with their own failures.

:raise eye: err, actually, i've found that it's quite the opposite.

What is the point of enternal damnation if not to inspire fear?

:shrug: i dunno, heck, we didn't make it.

People believe because they are afraid.

not really. that motivation is ultimately short-lived at best; those motivated by a hell-fire/damnation sermon that scares them fall away; the true christians who turn their life to Jesus are built on a much stronger rock.

I can get that somewhere else, with spending less time. :)

less time? than a couple of hours a week? wow, that's pretty effecient:)

I'm not. Craig can take out anyone here in a religious argument, luckily, I'm roughly on his side. I make consience efforts NOT to debate him because he is expotentially smarter then I am.

i'd be more than happy to discuss with him. i don't think that i've ever seen him make statements that are that far out there, or that invite debate, however.

Why should I reject their works?
Well, let's see, beyond using them to murder, rape, pillage and essentially do evil to the world time and time again, organized religion retards the advance of humans. It has placed obstacles to learning, it has placed obstacles to critical thinking, it has placed obstacles to exploration. Anything that actively slows human progress should be rejected. Organized religion also actively discriminates aganist people, seeking to revoke civil rights, revoke life from minorities, and push down all other morals and ethics, even when they are pragmatically correct.

people have used the work of darwin to do much of the same thing; legitimize slavery, even genocide. do you therefore not believe in evolution?

So unless you like actively stopping the progression of human thought, learning, scientific advancement and freedom, sure, accept organized religion.

:lol: ever heard of a guy named mendel? how about newton?;)

[Fasdf]

the science of a 7 -day approach certainly is, but the idea that God created the universe and everything in it is anything but.

What?

You believe that the universe cannot be eternal- that something had to start it.
You believe god started the universe
You believe god is eternal <-?

If you believe something as weird as that, how can you have trouble believing in a 7 day creation? Or ghosts? Or astrology? Or free trade?

[cpwill]

God created the universe, God exists independant of the Universe. science, which is the study of God's creation, tells us a bit about how God went about creating the universe. how is that self-contradictory?

[Duo_Maxwell]

but the idea that God created the universe and everything in it is anything but.

Questionable at best. It is a far leap to simply say a being created everything. The impatience who will not wait for the answers embrace the eay way out. I will not fling ration and the scientific method out the window because I want the "answers" now. Sooner or later we'll known, but I refuse to rush to premature conclusions. God may or may not exist. God may or may not have created the universe. I don't know, but I have patience.

and the first, if they're smart

Be dumb or smart, you're still doomed.

which, since it is impossible for you, is going to be rather difficult

I find it disturbing that you'd rather turn to a being that may not exist instead of to yourself. That seems like a weak approach and somewhat of a cop out.

you appear to be confusing spiritual measures with physical ones. that's like saying the jews must not have been smart, after all, they got killed by the nazis.

Perhaps. But spirituality is different for me then it is for you. On the Jews, the West would have been royally screwed if Hitler utilized their polential talents.

:raise eye: err, actually, i've found that it's quite the opposite.

Why do people pray? Why do people forsake God when he forsakes them? Why do people condemn God for not helping them? Take you credit when you deserve it and take your blame when you deserve it and leave any "being" out of the equation of blame and praise.

i dunno, heck, we didn't make it.

Questionable as well.

the true christians who turn their life to Jesus are built on a much stronger rock.

Tell that to Craig. :lol:

people have used the work of darwin to do much of the same thing; legitimize slavery, even genocide. do you therefore not believe in evolution?

Social Darwinism is a joke, it is a fraud. There is NO such thing as social Darwinsim. It is a tactic fabricated to support any superority complex. While a few races may have a few genetic advantages in certain habitats, nothing of the sort that people like Rhodes and Kipling preached is true.

ever heard of a guy named mendel? how about newton

Ever heard of Galileo? Or how about Copernicus? ;)

[Craig]

Tell that to Craig.

I heard my name! Are you invoking me, Duo? ;)

[cpwill]

Be dumb or smart, you're still doomed.

not if your'e wise, though:)

I find it disturbing that you'd rather turn to a being that may not exist instead of to yourself. That seems like a weak approach and somewhat of a cop out.

:confused: who said you'd turn into a being not yourself? on the contrary, you are more yourself then than you ever have been before.

Perhaps. But spirituality is different for me then it is for you.

not sure what exactly you mean by that.

On the Jews, the West would have been royally screwed if Hitler utilized their polential talents.

potentially, however, i rest secure in the belief that american production power plus russian population would have eventually carried the day.

Why do people pray?

various reasons, you want a list?

Why do people forsake God when he forsakes them? Why do people condemn God for not helping them?

my guess would be that these people had unrealistic (and probably demanding) expectations of God; that He would follow their wills rather than them following His.

Take you credit when you deserve it and take your blame when you deserve it and leave any "being" out of the equation of blame and praise.

and what if that being helps you, he does not, then, deserve his share of the credit?

Questionable as well.

lol, hell is anything but a human construction. else we would also have the ability to conquer it.

Tell that to Craig. :lol:

okay, craig: people who "convert" to christianity solely based on fear very rarely stay, as a tactic it is likely to produce long-lasting serious christians; in the parable they are the seed that falls on the rocky soil; springing up quickly, and then dying just as quickly.

Social Darwinism is a joke, it is a fraud. There is NO such thing as social Darwinsim. It is a tactic fabricated to support any superority complex.

which in no way removes the fact that as a misaplication of darwinism it in no way refutes the theory of evolution.

Ever heard of Galileo? Or how about Copernicus? ;)

i've heard of all four;) together they serve as perfect examples of how organized religion has both furthered and hindered academic and scientific progress.:)

[Craig]

okay, craig: people who "convert" to christianity solely based on fear very rarely stay, as a tactic it is likely to produce long-lasting serious christians; in the parable they are the seed that falls on the rocky soil; springing up quickly, and then dying just as quickly.

What is this comment in reference to? I have asserted that fear plays an important psychological factor, though not necessarily on a conscious level, in the Christian religion. However, God's love for humanity, the promise of salvation and the other positive aspects of Christianity comprise the major emphasis of sermons, and the repetition of this message serves to reinforce to the followers that Christianity is a religion of love. The threat of hellfire, which is integral to the fear component, can act as a powerful coercive factor to sway a person's decision, but once there is indication that the person's old beliefs are faltering, the message rapidly shifts in tone to that of love and salvation. In other words, while I do assert that fear is an important aspect of Christianity, its role and importance can be manipulated such that it appears to be inconsequential, or even non-existent.

[Duo_Maxwell]

on the contrary, you are more yourself then than you ever have been before.

I don't understand. By turning to a higher power for help you are more of yourself? Huh?

i rest secure in the belief that american production power plus russian population would have eventually carried the day.

True, but it would have cost us hundreds of thousands of more lives as well as dragging the war much longer. The Jews are damn hard workers and smart people. It would have been alot more bloody if they were aganist us as well.

and what if that being helps you, he does not, then, deserve his share of the credit?

And you know this how....How do you know it's simply not a pyschological aspect that you THINK a higher power is helping you therefore you put more effort you normally wouldn't do into a project? God could be a placebo for all we know. That would blow some minds.

hell is anything but a human construction. else we would also have the ability to conquer it

Ah, but we have. There are people who embrace hell as their homeland, Satan as their savior.

which in no way removes the fact that as a misaplication of darwinism it in no way refutes the theory of evolution.

True, the lie of social darwinism doesn't refute the theory of evolution. Something that is false cannot refute or prove something that has been proven, in some aspects true.

Remind me, how did religion further Mendel's study of early plant genetics? :rolleyes: Do that for newton as well.

Craig: Why is there a hell when Christians say they believe in their religion without fear of hell? :confused:

[cpwill]

What is this comment in reference to?

duo made a comment of christians believing out of fear of hell, i pointed out that it's not a very strong reason, and typically the people that depend on it have poor results and he (to use your word:)) "invoked" you.:lol:

I have asserted that fear plays an important psychological factor, though not necessarily on a conscious level, in the Christian religion.

having been raised in the methodist church for 21 years i cannot recall a single instance where our pastor tried to "scare" us. i'm not saying it isn't a tactic, simply that it's hardly a nessecary one, in fact, often quite the opposite.

However, God's love for humanity, the promise of salvation and the other positive aspects of Christianity comprise the major emphasis of sermons, and the repetition of this message serves to reinforce to the followers that Christianity is a religion of love.

correct, this is by far the major thrust of Christianity, hell is a bit more of a by-product, so to speak.

The threat of hellfire, which is integral to the fear component, can act as a powerful coercive factor to sway a person's decision, but once there is indication that the person's old beliefs are faltering, the message rapidly shifts in tone to that of love and salvation.

that is one possible path, but it is not necessarily the one most usually taken, simply the one that is most obvious due to the extreme loudness of it's proponents (ie: the vast majority of palestinians are not suicide bombers; but when people think of palestinians, the suicide bomber is often an image that springs to mind because of the loudness of the action), particularly in fundamentalist churches.

In other words, while I do assert that fear is an important aspect of Christianity, its role and importance can be manipulated such that it appears to be inconsequential, or even non-existent.

by the later switch-up? but what if it is never really presented within the chronology at all?

[cpwill]

ps; i can see where duo gets' his impression of your intellegence. you are an excelent writer.

[Craig]

Why is there a hell when Christians say they believe in their religion without fear of hell?

I hope you're not expecting an amazing bit of reasoning here Duo, because Hell exists for those who have not accepted Jesus as the personal Lord and Saviour and received divine grace. Naturally, as most Christians believe they are saved, there is no reason for them to worry about Hell, which explains their apparent lack of fear. However, I should be surprised if you encountered many Christians who didn't have some sort of doubts, even if they are secret ones, about whether or not they will make it into Heaven from time to time. That's the fear we've been talking about.

[cpwill]

you might, perhaps, look to the development of calvinist theology as a reaction to just that very thing, in fact. however, i'm not positive that the model holds completely true (you can still be assured of your salvation) throughout.

[Craig]

duo made a comment of christians believing out of fear of hell, i pointed out that it's not a very strong reason, and typically the people that depend on it have poor results and he (to use your word:)) "invoked" you.:lol:



having been raised in the methodist church for 21 years i cannot recall a single instance where our pastor tried to "scare" us. i'm not saying it isn't a tactic, simply that it's hardly a nessecary one, in fact, often quite the opposite.

I am not asserting that the fear is necessarily present in an overt way. Most commonly, the use of fear is overtly applied to the non-believer, particularly those who are not immediately receptive to the Christian message and need a psychological prodding of sorts. Once you are a Christian, the overt usage of fear is not required, though it is subtley reinforced through discussion, through Biblical readings, and through other less obvious ways. As I said, the emphasis upon the positive message vastly outweighs the negative, such that most Christians do not have the perception that fear significantly factors into their religion.

correct, this is by far the major thrust of Christianity, hell is a bit more of a by-product, so to speak.

And from a metareligious standpoint, Hell is a very necessary one. It is useful in persuading people to join the religion in the first place, it is useful in preventing them from drifting towards atheism or another belief system, and it serves as a method to help ensure that Christians follow Godly morality in their daily lives.

that is one possible path, but it is not necessarily the one most usually taken, simply the one that is most obvious due to the extreme loudness of it's proponents (ie: the vast majority of palestinians are not suicide bombers; but when people think of palestinians, the suicide bomber is often an image that springs to mind because of the loudness of the action), particularly in fundamentalist churches.

I agree that it's not necessarily the one taken, though I have often found it is one employed as a last ditch effort when the message of love and salvation fails.

by the later switch-up? but what if it is never really presented within the chronology at all?

Heaven and Hell are integral to the Christian paradigm. As such, every Christian, or non-believer subject to some theological discussion, understands on a basic level the implication of these two dichotomies in the afterlife. Therefore, I find it difficult to believe that it could "never really [be] presented within the chronology at all". And even if it wasn't presented originally, subtle reference to it helps reinforce the Christian belief, as I outlined above.

[Craig]

ps; i can see where duo gets' his impression of your intellegence. you are an excelent writer.

I knew this English Major would be good for something! Seriously though, my writing here is not that good. It expresses the idea using a degree of sophistication, but nothing more. My paragraphs are not necessarily structured in the most logical manner possible, nor is there necessarily a natural progression in the ideas. It's a good thing I'm the only one who's noticed.

[cpwill]

I am not asserting that the fear is necessarily present in an overt way. Most commonly, the use of fear is overtly applied to the non-believer, particularly those who are not immediately receptive to the Christian message and need a psychological prodding of sorts.

this is the most common use of fear, yes, however i put forth to you that the use of fear is not as common as you may suppose. i was raised 21 years in the methodist church, i cannot recall our pastor ever giving so much as a single sermon on hell, nor any instances of him really even going into it.

Once you are a Christian, the overt usage of fear is not required, though it is subtley reinforced through discussion, through Biblical readings, and through other less obvious ways.

i think you're confusing guilt with fear of hell. once a person is saved, as you said, they have nothing to fear from hell and it therefore cannot be a motivating factor for them. sort of like you (assuming you are male, you sound like one) will probably never worry about what the side effects will be when you go through menopause.

secondly, bible readings, daily study, etc. are used not to put fear of anything in us, but rather to remind and aid us in living a christian lifestyle and developing a closer relationship to God.

As I said, the emphasis upon the positive message vastly outweighs the negative, such that most Christians do not have the perception that fear significantly factors into their religion.

and you are not willing to take the vast majority of christians at their word?
or you think you understand their religion better than they do?:confused:

And from a metareligious standpoint

:lol:time out for the vocabulary impaired: metareligious???:confused:

Hell is a very necessary one. It is useful in persuading people to join the religion in the first place,

however, as stated earlier, those who's sole motivation is fear of hell rarely find themselves "sticking with it," fear of anything can only be a motivating factor for so long, and (i've found) typically builds up a resistance to any other form of motivation.

it is useful in preventing them from drifting towards atheism or another belief system,

actually typically we use scripture, logic, and reminders of personal experiences as well as (again) that personal relationship with God to keep ourselves on the path.

and it serves as a method to help ensure that Christians follow Godly morality in their daily lives.

not really; if i sin, God will forgive me. i try to live a Godly life not because i fear Hell (I have it on the Highest Authority that i have nothing to fear from that) but rather because i love God and hate dissapointing Him. this combined with the fact that i find that living a Godly life typically provides the best life for me (for example; one who doesn't lie never has to worry about getting his stories mixed up) provides my motivation.

I agree that it's not necessarily the one taken, though I have often found it is one employed as a last ditch effort when the message of love and salvation fails.

and in some cases, it works. however, there isn't really a forumulaic progression (typically each christian is different; some will focus on nothing but that which you are discussing, some will touch on it lightly, and some won't mention it at all and some don't even believe in hell in the first place).

as for the last-ditch effort; an example; i've talked 'till i'm blue in the face with some folks here, i challenge you to find one example of me attempting to scare anyone with hellfire.

Heaven and Hell are integral to the Christian paradigm. As such, every Christian, or non-believer subject to some theological discussion, understands on a basic level the implication of these two dichotomies in the afterlife.

not necessarily, i've run into (and are friends with) christians who do not believe in hell, or, rather, believe that nobody actually goes there.

Therefore, I find it difficult to believe that it could "never really [be] presented within the chronology at all". And even if it wasn't presented originally, subtle reference to it helps reinforce the Christian belief, as I outlined above.

ta-da, i give you, cpwill; who's conversion had absolutely zip to do with fear of hellfire, and who's level of exposure to it via his church has already been elucidated above.

[MikeD4o7]

ta-da, i give you, cpwill; who's conversion had absolutely zip to do with fear of hellfire, and who's level of exposure to it via his church has already been elucidated above.


Just out of curiousity, when did you convert... and what were your beliefs before?

[cpwill]

prior i had gone through a rigamarole; athiesm, agnosticism, and even about a year and a half thinking i was jewish:)

i converted to christianity (gave my life to Christ, accepted the gift of salvation, etc.) at the age of 18, i have been a christian approximately 34 months:).

[DRMIZER]

Oh let's see (this isn't a funny one)

1) Using rational, individual thought to logically deduct what you believe to be true, not just accepting what the Church tells you to believe.
2) Severe lack of any evidence proving creationism is even remotely true
3) Realization that no one is going to "save" your sorry butt, and that you must do it yourself.
4) Not buying into the hypocritical notion that we believe because we want to believe, but we don't fear Hell, but it exists and it's the worst place to be. Sure you don't. :lol:
5) Not having to spend hours at Church!

Why should we believe in a "God?" (FYI, I believe in a god, just not the one organized religion idoctrinates people into believing):clap: :angel: :clap:

[DRMIZER]

Heaven and Hell are integral to the Christian paradigm. As such, every Christian, or non-believer subject to some theological discussion, understands on a basic level the implication of these two dichotomies in the afterlife. Therefore, I find it difficult to believe that it could "never really [be] presented within the chronology at all". And even if it wasn't presented originally, subtle reference to it helps reinforce the Christian belief, as I outlined above.I agree. And the references to hell are anything but subtle. I have stated this before. I'm unsure how Christianity sustains it life without the concept of hell or how Christians can have a belief in the faith without having a belief in hell and satan. This belief has been with the church since the beginning in one form or another.

Pre-reformation concept of hell
It's important to understand the origin of the word "Hell". It comes from the Pagan Norse Queen of the Underworld, Hel. "Helgo, Heligoland, Helsinki, Hollingstedt, Holderness, Hostein and Holland were a few of the many place names derived from her" name.

The Christian church taught that all of the Pagan Gods and Goddesses from the Middle East, Rome, Greece, the Germanic and Celtic tribes etc. were sent to Hell for eternal punishment. Satan was there, with all of his demons and fallen angels. But most of the inhabitants were wicked people. The vast majority of humans went to Hell when they died; few escaped this fate.

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote: "In order that nothing may be wanting to the felicity of the blessed spirits in heaven, a perfect view is granted to them of the tortures of the damned."

Gnostic Christian Beliefs
The Gnostics formed one of the three main groups within the early Christian movement. They believed in a very remote and unknowable High God. An angel of Wisdom, called Sophia, gave birth to the Demiurge (Lower God). The latter God, referred to as Jehovah in the Hebrew Scripture, was seen as an inferior God who was unaware of the existence of the High God and of his own mother Sophia. Jehovah created the earth, universe and human life. But his creation was defective. As a result, our life on earth is in a form of Hell.

Jesus came to earth to convey Gnosis (specialized knowledge) to a few select people. When they died, they would know how to travel across the universe to the place where God resides.

Marcionist Christian Beliefs
Marcion was a Christian from Asia Minor who settled in Rome circa 144 CE. He taught that Christianity was a completely new revelation, that was unrelated to the Jewish religion. The Marcionites established a church organization which came close to becoming the dominant Christian force in the Eastern part of the Roman Empire by the end of the second century CE. He published the first known Christian Bible, eliminating the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament), and included only edited versions of the Gospel of Luke and Paul's epistles.

The Marcionites regarded themselves as the true followers of St. Paul. They adsorbed some of the Gnostic beliefs about deity: Jehovah was considered to be imperfect, weak, evil creator-god who held humanity as captives. He had given mankind the Law, which they were incapable of following. The "Higher God of Goodness" took pity on humanity and sent his son as a savior. Jesus appeared human but was really a God cloaked in a human body. At the Last Judgment, Jehovah and his imperfect creation will disappear.
Marcion taught that the only requirement for salvation was that the believer have faith in the Higher God's love. Those without this faith would be lost at the end of history.

Manichaeist Christian Belief
Mani was born into a Jewish Christian community in Persia circa 215. He preached a new religion which he regarded as true Christianity. It incorporated many beliefs of Zoroastrianism abd Bhddhism. He taught that there were two deities: a God of Light and Satan. By avoiding sensual and sexual activity, and by following the teachings of Mani, the elect (called "perfecti") could gather sufficient credits so that they will ascend directly to the Kingdom of Light at death. The rest must be reincarnated; they live through a number of lives until they can become part of the elect. Unrepentant sinners will be consumed by the flames which will burn for 1,468 years after Jesus returns.

Many parts of these beliefs are with us today in the Christian religion, some directly from the bible. To make a point, Jesus described this place as such a place of horror that it would be better to sever a member of our body that would lead us there, than to end up in that place of torments. He repeats the words,"where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched," three times for emphasis.

In Luke 16:19-26 hell is described not only as a fiery place of torment, but also as a separation from God and His saints, a place where there is continual torment. Jesus continues, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matthew 25:41). Revelations pick up a more drastic theme regarding hell.

Christ gave his life on the cross so that we could, through him, be saved from this eternal hell. For a Christian not to believe in this concept would be the same as not believing what the scriptures state about a major portion of their belief system.

This is certainly a dichotomy: Accepting love and the consequences thereof and the rejection of this love and the consequences.

[Craig]

this is the most common use of fear, yes, however i put forth to you that the use of fear is not as common as you may suppose. i was raised 21 years in the methodist church, i cannot recall our pastor ever giving so much as a single sermon on hell, nor any instances of him really even going into it.

i think you're confusing guilt with fear of hell. once a person is saved, as you said, they have nothing to fear from hell and it therefore cannot be a motivating factor for them. sort of like you (assuming you are male, you sound like one) will probably never worry about what the side effects will be when you go through menopause.

This depends upon the particular belief system of the follower. I do seem to recall in the Gospel of Saint James that faith alone is not enough. Therefore, on does not simply elude Hell by virtue of being a Christian. The fact that one lacks this immunity means that the fear may still be present. And, even if you are immune from something, it does not mean that you lack fear of it on an intellectual level, (in your mind), which in turn can be employed against the non-believer if one so chooses.

secondly, bible readings, daily study, etc. are used not to put fear of anything in us, but rather to remind and aid us in living a christian lifestyle and developing a closer relationship to God.

Oh no? You mean to say that you’ve never read through Revelation? You’ve never heard of the fate of false prophets, liars, murderers, and all those with the reprobate mind? You’ve never had a casual discussion wherein some mention of Hell was made? Funny CPWill, I’m a non-believer and I’ve encountered all of these things. As I said, they are subtle rather than overt, but they are present.



and you are not willing to take the vast majority of christians at their word?
or you think you understand their religion better than they do?:confused:

To simply do so would constitute an argumentum ad populum. And quite frankly, I don’t take them at their word because I have seen Hell employed to create fear in the non-believer, and I personally know one Christian who feared that he wasn’t going to make it into Heaven, (and I assure you this was fear, not guilt), so the argument that fear does not have an important role in Christianity is not substantiated. We can debate the degree that this fear is present, but it is there.

:lol:time out for the vocabulary impaired: metareligious???:confused:

When I mention a metareligious standpoint, I am not referring to any one religion, but rather traits and characteristics found in religious belief..


however, as stated earlier, those who's sole motivation is fear of hell rarely find themselves "sticking with it," fear of anything can only be a motivating factor for so long, and (i've found) typically builds up a resistance to any other form of motivation.

That’s why there is a tonal shift in message, to the emphasis upon love and salvation that is reinforced over and over until the believer internalizes it. I’m not making the argument that fear is the only motivating factor, nor was I earlier. Rather, I said t