Sex in Islam

[ramzi]

A man I love to hate
http://www.danielpipes.org

Daniel Pipes's take on sex and Islam (http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1823)...This is the same man who wants to limit funding to universities like UC-Berkeley because he feels it is connected to terrorism. He writes articles titled “Fixing Islam,” and thinks that he should help reform the religion. That’s very noble of him considering his close ties to Israel. Imagine Jewish reaction if Yasser Arafat discussed reform of Judaism.

He is really conservative and wants to censor academia. Pipes advocates reporting people that he believes are anti-Zionist, anti-American, or anti-Semitic. He suggests that both students and professors should be reported, and he has been compared to Joseph McCarthy. His definitions of all those anti-xxx groups are very loose. He almost wants to report or censor any criticism of Israel or America (primarily Israel).

That’s the intro. Now, this article confuses me a bit. I know little about Islam, and I know that Pipes always has ulterior motives. I therefore immediately question the validity of this article, and I’m quite sure that it is inaccurate. He does sometimes massage his description of women’s sexuality in Islam though, and his initial analysis seems correct despite a nefarious conclusion. Unfortunately, no matter how the man spins it, he is clearly more educated on Islam than most westerners. So lets have a discussion about the context of his article. I hope that we can get some real Muslim views on this one.

Here are a couple of snippets http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1823: Female Desire and Islamic Trauma
by Daniel Pipes
New York Sun
May 25, 2004

Considering the Muslim reputation for archaic customs, it is ironic to note that Islamic civilization not only portrays women as sexually desirous, but it sees them as more passionate than men. Indeed, this understanding has determined the place of women in traditional Muslim life.

In the Islamic view, men and women both seek intercourse, during which their bodies undergo similar processes, bringing similar pleasures. If Westerners traditionally saw the sexual act as a battleground where the male exerts his supremacy over the female, Muslims saw it as a tender and shared pleasure.
His conclusions are clear, and he writes the article to ultimately criticize the Arab world especially it’s faltered acceptance of "western modernity" For many Muslims, the West poses not just an external threat as the infidel invader; it also erodes traditional mechanisms to cope with the internal threat, woman. This leads to widespread worries about adopting Western ways and a preference instead to cling to older customs. Differences in sexuality, in other words, contribute to an overall Muslim reluctance to accept modernity. Fear of Western erotic ways ends up constraining Muslim peoples in the political, economic, and cultural arenas. Sexual apprehensions constitute a key reason for Islam's trauma in the modern era.Well, Pipes does use Islamic gender equality to somehow lead to the Middle East’s rejection of modernity. His logic is clearly flawed, but where? I’m not really posting this to see how people agree with Pipes. He writes pretty well, and it is easy to see why people would accept his arguments (at least after a quick read—a careful reading and closer analysis tend to expose his intent and bias, though that happens with most authors). I’m also not looking for other Christian and Jewish views about how to reform Islam, but I would like to see the Muslim reaction to this article. I’m sure I will get it all though. We’ll see.

I will post a similar question on my own forums as well.

[Fasdf]

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:eek: oh momma

[Michele]

:eek: oh momma

the first link in the lead post works:

Female Desire and Islamic Trauma
by Daniel Pipes
New York Sun
May 25, 2004

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1823

and if it doesn't here is an alternative link (just had to put a search in on googles):

http://www.conservativenews.org/Commentary.asp

[mahayana]

I've posted this before, but conservative muslim clerics (who wield great power over the population) find offensive the casual treatment of fornication, adultery, and homosexuality by the western media. Much as does the US Christian religious right.

It would be hard to imagine a modern democracy which denies the right to vote, basic equality, to women. Whether you agree with Pipes or not, he is touching on a real political problem for the "nation-builders."

[Michele]

are there muslims on this forum? if so they are keeping a very low profile ... for I wished a muslim would have told me where exactly i could find that bukhari and moslem quote within the quran if indeed there are muslims posting here.

[Captain America]

Midnight at the oasis...send your camel to bed.

Beastiality? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Michele]

Midnight at the oasis...send your camel to bed.

Beastiality? :lol: :lol: :lol:

you know Captain America, I have a feeling this is not what Ramzi had in mind.

[Michele]

I haven't read the article yet Ramzi, I am just not in the mood for the twisted nature of Pipes at the moment and his introductory paragraph kind of cracks me up:

Considering the Muslim reputation for archaic customs, it is ironic to note that Islamic civilization not only portrays women as sexually desirous, but it sees them as more passionate than men. Indeed, this understanding has determined the place of women in traditional Muslim life.

I couldn't get beyond the first paragraph.

First, of all it is like Pipes is dissecting an alien life form. As a woman... regardless of how permissively our MTV society portray's woman... I would have to say that the article could most certainly be entitled:

Female Desire and American Trauma or
Female Desire and Christain Trauma

for I am not sure even "civilized" males are any more or less comfortable with female desire than they ever were anywhere? I am not sure they are. In fact I have the feeling Female desire makes males (in general) uncomfortable (and there are many variables) unless they can control it.

It seems to me male discomfort with female desire is not culturally specific, nor, for that matter, is where the discomfort comes from, how it manifests or how the discomfort might displace itself negatively (though how it is handled may vary from cultural to culture). It seems the quest does still continue, in one form or another, for imposing some restrictive mechanism upon female desire in an effort for this desire not to agitate the male's lack of control--men socialized with more freedom and therefore this freedom manifests no sense of responsibility or regard for his own need to control his desire. Somehow the solution for this has been to harness female desire rather than temper them both with each their own sets of accountability and responsiblity to themselves or the safety and respect of each other's gender.

I know it doesn't appear this is true in the "civilized and modern" world but it is most certainly true. Female sexuality has been manipulated to such a degree even females can be enormously obnoxious with regard to believing her exhaulted power only resides within her sexual prowess to the degree that she identifies her whole worth by this power in a way that it controls her rather than she controlling it. Sure female desire is a magic and we like it ... it fills us and makes us feel good all on our own, separate and at a distance and it would be wholly empowering but for the fact that in many senses it must be repressed for it can bring danger our way and yet man remains intimidated by it.

Now if we want to talk backward and barbaric --- and mind you I don't know what Pipes is bellyaching about now --- but he certainly is no fan of the Arab world --- we know female desire is problematic for males across the globe, and that it is, can be more problematic for her well being toward the most extreme degree that in an effort to deneuter the female, in some cultures female mutilation still occurs. That has got to stop.

The only reason it even came to mind was when I saught out the article by its title this came up as well. Now. I saw in a documentary one of these done on a kitchen table no anesthesia --- the uncle who performed the operation should be shot along with his father and his father's father. Men really do need to grow up. I know I am painting in broad strokes and this is an extreme which can be rectified easily. IT JUST MUST STOP THERE IS NO TWO WAYS ABOUT IT. However the impetus of this form of control does then lessen by degrees to incest, rape, spousal abuse, and subtler manifestations of male discomfort with female sexuality.

Robes and head scarves are one thing. I understand them in a romantic sort of way and believe they are meant to a degree to breed respect between genders perhaps even protect the female... it can also instill way too much awe of the woman and that has its drawbacks while on the the other hand only restricting the woman can risk not instilling ENOUGH control in the male which will always backwash back on the woman in sometimes dangerous ways. There is a mystic about the robes and scarves BUT female castration is a whole other story. Who heaps all this power onto woman anyway? Isn't it projected onto her ... the whole Jungian archetypal nightmare of the males struggle with breaking from the mother... yaddah yaddah yaddah.

What is female genital mutilation?

Female genital mutilation (FGM) is the term used to refer to the removal of part, or all, of the female genitalia. The most severe form is infibulation, also known as pharaonic circumcision. An estimated 15% of all mutilations in Africa are infibulations. The procedure consists of clitoridectomy (where all, or part of, the clitoris is removed), excision (removal of all, or part of, the labia minora), and cutting of the labia majora to create raw surfaces, which are then stitched or held together in order to form a cover over the vagina when they heal. A small hole is left to allow urine and menstrual blood to escape. In some less conventional forms of infibulation, less tissue is removed and a larger opening is left.

The vast majority (85%) of genital mutilations performed in Africa consist of clitoridectomy or excision. The least radical procedure consists of the removal of the clitoral hood.

more...
http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm1.htm

please forgive me, I have probably taken this way off topic because I hadn't read your article. When it came up in my search, it distracted me as it is an operation performed in my opinion directly as a result of this bizarre discomfort males have with the female. And yet it is for the most part, males that seem to have the least amount of control of themselves, which might be a good argument for the operation being performed on males rather than females, which I am not advocating but only to emphasize the point.

[mahayana]

A couple of other controversies involved muslim schoolgirls breaking dress codes by wearing traditional headgear, and muslim women driving without licences rather than being photographed with faces exposed.

I suppose retinal scans, or some other official ID might work, but having half the population hide, out of fear of "creating evil thoughts" in men, does have practical consequences.

Wonder how the mullahs would feel about "pat-downs" and strip-searches?

[Michele]

"creating evil thoughts" in men,


do men have no control of their own... that women are responsible for creating even their thoughts... and only their "evil" thoughts?

okay it is time to read this article.

[DeathMonkey]

Part of the overall misogyny of the region, stemming back to OT times, and pre-Islamic nomadic tradition is to view women as merely a vessel for desire and its consequence, childbirth. The idea is that women, soulless beings, are put here to ensnare men in traps of desire, and their only goal is to have children. In Heaven, women who are purpetual virgins incapable of childbirth (houris) serve those who have died in the service of Islam. This is an obvious "wish-fulfillment" fantasy.
A vast network of non-Koranic traditions evolving from tribal customs mirrors the growth of mysogyny from the celibate priests of Christianity.
Indeed, the cultural ideas surrounding women in China, Japan (footbinding, genital mutilation, status as "property", etc), and Africa show many of the same taboos.

[ramzi]

A couple of other controversies involved muslim schoolgirls breaking dress codes by wearing traditional headgear, and muslim women driving without licences rather than being photographed with faces exposed.

I suppose retinal scans, or some other official ID might work, but having half the population hide, out of fear of "creating evil thoughts" in men, does have practical consequences.

Wonder how the mullahs would feel about "pat-downs" and strip-searches?
I understand the importance of what Michelle is saying, but why nit-pick about Florida not allowing Muslim women to have their license pics taken with their hijab or headscarf on or Oklahoma schools who suspend 11-year old girls for wearing them. I see your outrage for some of these insidious practices of breaking dress code or driving in the states Mahayana, especially since most of these women are permitted to do what they are not allowed to do with a burqa on half-naked.

For the fear of “creating evil thoughts” in men, I would consider the fear of not doing that in the west. I, personally prefer the latter fear, but that’s ‘cause I’m male. I get to have women objectified in front of my face, and who am I to care about what may be underneath? If I could choose between a girl with a good personality or a sexpot…well, I wouldn’t want anyone to think that this forum-member would lose himself in vanity, but is half the population there hiding under some garment or is half of our population hiding behind the guise of free objectification? I don’t think that either extreme is especially prevalent. I see these as cultural differences. I just want to point out the absurdity of your assertion.

You, like many in the Muslim world, refuse to break from your tunnel vision. All you see in the Middle East are a bunch of oppressed women who hide from their men. They see a bunch of whores running around to get tagged for acceptance. Good job. Your western Judeo-Christian education promotes a similar freedom of thought to that taught by some imam in the Arab world.

Besides, many of the bourgeois women in Beirut and Amman put the risqué dress of women in L.A. and New York to shame, but Foxnews won’t let you think that anywhere could be more racy than the U.S., even if it does claim to detest that indelicacy.

Still, the U.S. is generally more progressive, and who the hell cares? I’m not asking that. I know that there are problems with both cultures, and I know that there are people with an education in or on Islam who subscribe to this board. I want people to expound more on Pipe’s reference to gender equality in Islam, and give a reaction to his article. More education on this topic will further everyone’s argument. Pipes has taken that gender equality to effect a cause for the problems in Islamic society; all the hawks on this board can twist their logic in a similar manner. For those interested in another point of view on a religion that is highly stereotyped and misrepresented in this part of the world, maybe this thread can help. Ya know, if we stopped contrasting the negative effects of our cultural differences and looked to compare some of our virtuosities, then we might try to help ourselves and stop killing each other.

Oh, and just out of curiosity, how do you feel about pat-downs and strip-searches?

[Michele]

I see your outrage for some of these insidious practices of breaking dress code or driving in the states Mahayana, especially since most of these women are permitted to do what they are not allowed to do with a burqa on half-naked.

hmmm with a burqa on half-naked? perhaps this falls under the mystique of the burqa? for I am not sure I understand that image .. yet it brings to mind... images.... your post is provocative. sentence by sentence it carries significance... although there are a number of sentences I am not sure I am understanding correctly...burqa on half naked? you know there is something to be said for semi nudity... but then again... I might have misunderstood...

For the fear of “creating evil thoughts” in men, I would consider the fear of not doing that in the west. I, personally prefer the latter fear, but that’s ‘cause I’m male.

funny.


You, like many in the Muslim world, refuse to break from your tunnel vision. All you see in the Middle East are a bunch of oppressed women who hide from their men. They see a bunch of whores running around to get tagged for acceptance. Good job.

what is so good about women running around objectifying themselves in the name of freedom of their sexuality who INDEED are only doing so for acceptance? See from my perspective (a woman) it also can be interpreted as just another male conspiracy... for in my most cynical self I have a joke that runs through my mind.... In my lifetime women have been given much more latitude with dress... and the more provocative they have become it seems the more shut down the male seems almost impossible to reach chasing fantasies in his head now to the degree that what is left? I say to myself go on little girls take it all off... he still won't know what he wants. I don't see this as progress.

more in next post....

[Michele]

Oh, and just out of curiosity, how do you feel about pat-downs and strip-searches?


I find it interesting that Pipes is literally heaping upon the Muslim world this criticism based on a flawed premise. Freedom of female sexuality in the western world, is presumed. Pipe's is confusing the visual permissiveness of what is in essence purely objectification as freedom. This causes him to erroneously conclude, IMO... that this freedom connotes that western males have no angst whatsoever with female sexuality. Boy is that a leap and a conclusion with which obviously I beg to differ. It seems to me Pipes is a blindman as almost everthing he states about the Middle East with regards to these contraints upon the woman (which is evident) as well as the segregation is that it is wholly derived directly from Islam, and perhaps to a degree it is, but these contraints and segregations are derived from an angst which is also highly prevelent in the western world and not necessarily exclusive or even related to Islam.

The modality of thought has not really changed that much. Based on his false presumption that female desire has been given this free reign, not realizing that objectification can be yet another restriction; Pipes seems to have erased this very same angst that indeed does exist within European gender issues from his mind, along with a ****-load of history.

One's comfort with one's desire or sexuality has little to do with exhibitionism. Falsely equating exhibitionism with freedom, while at the very same time it remains judged as evil. How is this freedom? There exist still in the psyche a sense of taboo which is what protects sacredness. There has been a guilt in all this handed down to all cultures throughout the ages, perhaps in it the mechanism of restraint for the male which also can detract from the pleasure. Look at the high statistics incest and rape... in America, in reality, how do our statistics compare with say Iran or Saudi Arabia or Egypt?

Obviously something is devolving with all the permissiveness for why all the disquiet? Certainly the battle between genders seems to have entered an even colder war. This guilt or disquiet still reverberates in our modern day psyches and orthodox judeo christianity is not altogether comfortable with the permissiveness either. Are we all blind to the rise of America's Christain right and all the morality issues that has brought to the forefront... along with the fire and the brimstone and a hell of a lot of hypocrisy?

Our current permissiveness has now uplifted whores up unto the pedastal along with the madonna (and don't get me wrong I am hardly a prude but we have gone from one extreme to the other in the course of 200 years in America), comfortable with neither extremes. There was a reality show recently on network WHO WANTS TO BE A PORN STAR a legitmate corporate industry... how is this progress? Or is hollywood attempting to pimp young american women outright?

You know it is not as if this "freedom to objectify" breeds any more or less respect than forcibily being covered up, nor am I under the impression that women who wear the burqa's all necessarily feel forced to do so. I don't know. As that is just about all the freedom there is to it... pure objectification? I am not sure that is a power of much of anything.. but to follow the push of the patriachy? It is not true freedom of female desire... and the in the face kind of place we have arrived at... to a degree desensitizes the male ... as I find males in a general sense kind of indifferent... what sacredness...

I really don't get Pipe's premise, his bias so utterly transparent.


I pull this paragraph...

next post....

[Michele]

Oh, and just out of curiosity, how do you feel about pat-downs and strip-searches?

from Pipe's article as an example of his blindness...

Indeed, Muslims generally believe female desire to be so much greater than the male equivalent that the woman is viewed as the hunter and the man as her passive victim. If believers feel little distress about sex acts as such, they are obsessed with the dangers posed by women. So strong are her needs thought to be, she ends up representing the forces of unreason and disorder. A woman's rampant desires and irresistible attractiveness gives her a power over men that even rivals God's. She must be contained, for her unbridled sexuality poses a direct danger to the social order. (Symbolic of this, the Arabic word fitna means both civil disorder and beautiful woman.)

First of all I believe female desire is greater than male desire. And as a woman I have heard males regularly bellyaching about that bimbo opportunitist, that vaccuous little beauty (named such by the male sensibility) they just love to chase and then complain about. It is a common complaint. You know: those women all deceptive like vixon spiders...out to trick the male into doing something he wouldn't normal do or take something from him. This intrinsic to a kind of male victomology prevelant here in the US... so Pipe's whole premise is screwy.

I can not imagine how it is he is so blind to it. Truly it is amazing at times the expressions of powerlessness I have fielded from males who I feel suffer from what I have come to call "the Cleopatra Complex." So taken by this power they preceive yet in the same breath victimized by it yet it is they playing the victim... it is just another odd bit of psychology for them to not be accountable. Taken in by this beastly kind of male eating woman, mixed in with a kind of guilt about sex. And when I pick it up in a male I run not walk. I heard this angst most frequently when I was dating more. And it is hardly cultural or specific to Islam... read carl Jung --- anima and animus.

In fact this sentence gives Pipe's utter bias away or should I say his blindness or perhaps his own denial. "Symbolic of this, the Arabic word fitna means both civil disorder and beautiful woman." Right, and in very simplistic terms that typifies the male struggle in his desire to break from the mother... the mixed metaphor arising from what I have always found an oddity that in the romance languages the word WAR is preceded by a feminine article: LA GUERRA. WAR BEING A SHE. It is the same thing. It is the very same angst.

and by the way that is as far as I got in the article so far... I guess must be the point where he applies his "premises" to drivers licenses or sending 11 yo's home for wearing the headscarves? I don't know. I may have more to say because I can't say how we get from this paragraph to strip searches? of all things.

And just for the record NO... I don't feel too kindly about pat searches and strip searches ... and in fact I wasn't so particularly happy about having all my belongs gone through and being pat down when I traveled by air december 2001... for some reason... you know how it is said the air searches are random ... well oddly... my boarding pass was marked in a way that I was searched ... at departure from both airports because I had a change of planes in st. louis and was searched again.. completely through all my belongs and pat down.. (not strip searched) sorry they would have to kill me.. the thought of it raises my trauma button... if I even had the slightest inclination in my mind that at random I would be strip searched... well... is this the direction we are moving?

and on my return flight searched again at both departure points... once I returned home I heard on the news OBL uses women to pass messages... and I thought hmmm... maybe that was why I was searched at every point...because I can be mistaken for arabic... semitic ... sephardic... I have been mistaken for so many ethnicities... and always the ones treated poorly too... it is a blessing and a curse... for I have been called many pejoratives from people stupidly believing me to be an ethnicity I wasn't... and as such... I can place myself in so many different shoes.

but you know it's not funny... I had all to do to contain my irritation... of course I realize it is a safety issue... but it still irritated me ... and it was done in a friendly manner... but what if instead they should decide I must be strip searched for no reason... boy would I think this homeland security stuff is even more stupid then I already believe them to be... random searches can't be pragmatic... what is the deal with that? I never thought about before... is that happening now with regularlity?

I guess I will finish the article now...

[ramzi]

hmmm with a burqa on half-naked? perhaps this falls under the mystique of the burqa? for I am not sure I understand that image .. yet it brings to mind... images.... your post is provocative. sentence by sentence it carries significance... although there are number of sentences I am not sure I am understanding correctly...burqa on half naked? you know there is something to be said for semi nudity... but then again... I might have misunderstood...
Lol, my bad, thanks for the image though…What cannot be done with a burqa on could otherwise be done half-naked. That was not entirely serious, but girls often go to school half-naked, and it does not make quite as much news as when someone goes to school wearing a burqa. I missed a preposition or something

what is so good about women running around objectifying themselves in the name of freedom of their sexuality who INDEED are only doing so for acceptance? I was not applauding it, but pointing it out. By saying that “You, like many in the Muslim world, refuse to break from your tunnel vision. All you see in the Middle East are a bunch of oppressed women who hide from their men. They see a bunch of whores running around to get tagged for acceptance,” I am saying that both groups are being ignorant by giving too much credence to either argument. I think that there are women in both societies who are hidden or exploited, but there is really more to it than a male conspiracy against women—in both cases. Not everyone will agree with this, but I do because I get paid more. Jk.

Actually, what I was saying is similar to Pipes’s conclusion at the end of one paragraph, but separate from the rest of the paragraph (just to let you know, I hate myself for arguing for Pipes on this with you Michelle): ”each civilization looks upon the other as deeply flawed, if not barbaric.” That’s really it, and I think that he is correct. We both see things on the other side as much more extreme than they are. I think that a lot can be done for gender equality in the states, but I do like to think that so much progress has been made. To view western women as little more than a bunch of whores seeking attention is excessive, just like viewing women in the Muslim world as completely oppressed and hidden is wrong. Still, women in the west are exploited and neither societies have achieved gender equality.

Basically, I agree with both ideas that women are exploited in the west but overly viewed as so in the Middle East. There is no question that many women objectify themselves for acceptance, but I don’t think that it’s fair to say that this is the main characteristic of women here. Like we focus on female oppression in Muslim lands, they focus too much on what they see as women doing little more than whoring themselves.

[ramzi]

And just for the record NO... I don't feel too kindly about pat searches and strip searches ... and in fact I wasn't so particularly happy about having all my belongs gone through and being pat down when I traveled by air december 2001... for some reason... you know how it is said the air searches are random ... well oddly... my boarding pass was marked in a way that I was searched ... at departure from both airports because I had a change of planes in st. louis and was searched again.. completely through all my belongs and pat down.. (not strip searched) sorry they would have to kill me.. the thought of it raises my trauma button... if I even had the slightest inclination in my mind that at random I would be strip searched... well... is this the direction we are moving?
Welcome to the club:)
It doesn’t even bother me anymore. Once it happened when I was going from Beirut to Turkey en route to America. Everyone traveling from Lebanon via Turkey was sent to a separate area. I was so happy to meet a bunch of people who were in Lebanon. It happened during the blackouts last summer, so our flight was diverted to Boston and a bunch of us got together and had a few drinks. It was pretty fun. I usually just crack jokes about the system when its happening and hope that I am not delayed too much. I was thinking of changing my name to David or something.

[Patriot]

A man I love to hate
http://www.danielpipes.org


ramzi, Daniel Pipes is a man I love to love. He is spot on in his research.

Question: Are you a Muslim?

[mahayana]

I understand the importance of what Michelle is saying, but why nit-pick about Florida not allowing Muslim women to have their license pics taken with their hijab or headscarf on or Oklahoma schools who suspend 11-year old girls for wearing them. I see your outrage for some of these insidious practices of breaking dress code or driving in the states Mahayana, especially since most of these women are permitted to do what they are not allowed to do with a burqa on half-naked.

For the fear of “creating evil thoughts” in men, I would consider the fear of not doing that in the west. I, personally prefer the latter fear, but that’s ‘cause I’m male. I get to have women objectified in front of my face, and who am I to care about what may be underneath? If I could choose between a girl with a good personality or a sexpot…well, I wouldn’t want anyone to think that this forum-member would lose himself in vanity, but is half the population there hiding under some garment or is half of our population hiding behind the guise of free objectification? I don’t think that either extreme is especially prevalent. I see these as cultural differences. I just want to point out the absurdity of your assertion.

You, like many in the Muslim world, refuse to break from your tunnel vision. All you see in the Middle East are a bunch of oppressed women who hide from their men. They see a bunch of whores running around to get tagged for acceptance. Good job. Your western Judeo-Christian education promotes a similar freedom of thought to that taught by some imam in the Arab world.

Besides, many of the bourgeois women in Beirut and Amman put the risqué dress of women in L.A. and New York to shame, but Foxnews won’t let you think that anywhere could be more racy than the U.S., even if it does claim to detest that indelicacy.

Still, the U.S. is generally more progressive, and who the hell cares? I’m not asking that. I know that there are problems with both cultures, and I know that there are people with an education in or on Islam who subscribe to this board. I want people to expound more on Pipe’s reference to gender equality in Islam, and give a reaction to his article. More education on this topic will further everyone’s argument. Pipes has taken that gender equality to effect a cause for the problems in Islamic society; all the hawks on this board can twist their logic in a similar manner. For those interested in another point of view on a religion that is highly stereotyped and misrepresented in this part of the world, maybe this thread can help. Ya know, if we stopped contrasting the negative effects of our cultural differences and looked to compare some of our virtuosities, then we might try to help ourselves and stop killing each other.

Oh, and just out of curiosity, how do you feel about pat-downs and strip-searches?

Hmmmm...quite a reaction. Last question first, pat-downs and strip-searches are police state tactics. My brother, a prison guard, does them every day as part of his job. I've been pulled over for no reason, asked to show my papers, had my vehicles searched, been patted down, weapons pointed at me and my family, right here in Texas, USA. I wear a beard and have long hair. How do you think I feel about it?

I have no outrage about muslim girls and women doing what they feel is right, rather brought up these incidents to show the harrassment they have suffered.

The "evil thoughts of men" reference came from a letter by a young Pakistani woman explaining why she wears traditional dress. No one forces her to do it (at home and in the presence of male relatives she wears western clothing). My point was simply that cultural values do exist; my hope is that separation of church and state, and womens' rights, especially the right to vote, will not be dismissed for these reasons.

And I agree that young girls dressing like Brittney are embracing objectification (I have a teenage neice who wears the 2" long zipper jeans with the thongs showing above). Also have female acquaintances who wear the Church of God long dresses with long sleeves. They would probably cover their faces as well, if their preachers told them to.

[ramzi]

Hmmmm...quite a reaction. Last question first, pat-downs and strip-searches are police state tactics. My brother, a prison guard, does them every day as part of his job. I've been pulled over for no reason, asked to show my papers, had my vehicles searched, been patted down, weapons pointed at me and my family, right here in Texas, USA. I wear a beard and have long hair. How do you think I feel about it?

I have no outrage about muslim girls and women doing what they feel is right, rather brought up these incidents to show the harrassment they have suffered.

The "evil thoughts of men" reference came from a letter by a young Pakistani woman explaining why she wears traditional dress. No one forces her to do it (at home and in the presence of male relatives she wears western clothing). My point was simply that cultural values do exist; my hope is that separation of church and state, and womens' rights, especially the right to vote, will not be dismissed for these reasons.

And I agree that young girls dressing like Brittney are embracing objectification (I have a teenage neice who wears the 2" long zipper jeans with the thongs showing above). Also have female acquaintances who wear the Church of God long dresses with long sleeves. They would probably cover their faces as well, if their preachers told them to.
Well, I figured that if you were curious “how the mullahs would feel about ‘pat-downs’ and strip-searches,” then it would be interesting to get your feelings on them. It’s a bummer that you got to see one of the negative nuances of our freedom at work. I hope that everything turned out well for you and your family afterwards.

Sorry to jump on your comment, but the problems there are well-known and well-hyped in our media—just as ours are in theirs. I was hoping to get at what we often overlook here and address cultural values--as you just mentioned. I hope that many issues won’t be dismissed for a number of reasons. I would love to see separation of church and state, women’s rights, and minorities rights and representation to be more completely embraced everywhere from the states to Iraq to Israel. Hopefully, we will get to see this soon.

[ramzi]

ramzi, Daniel Pipes is a man I love to love. He is spot on in his research.

Question: Are you a Muslim?

I'm not religious. I guess I'm agnostic, but I really don't care. true, though, Pipes's research is definitely spotty.

[Michele]

Welcome to the club:)
It doesn’t even bother me anymore. Once it happened when I was going from Beirut to Turkey en route to America. Everyone traveling from Lebanon via Turkey was sent to a separate area. I was so happy to meet a bunch of people who were in Lebanon. It happened during the blackouts last summer, so our flight was diverted to Boston and a bunch of us got together and had a few drinks. It was pretty fun. I usually just crack jokes about the system when its happening and hope that I am not delayed too much. I was thinking of changing my name to David or something.


What doesn't bother you anymore? The constant surveillance (I mean searching through belongings and pat down)? or are you saying all those in the Lebanon area were strip searched? This is the part that is bothering me. I mean I find the whole security thing kind of suspicious as it is, but to think that it could escalate to the point of just being pulled aside for a strip search as if this is normal, kind of disturbing. It seems it may be more prevalent on flights within the middle east. However, on another forum in passing I encountered a girl who has worked with the red cross in the OT's as a nurse and her whole team upon arrival at Ben Gurion Airport were strip searched.

I am not sure it ws red cross but it was synonomous to the red cross.

And notice too, like the holiday's last year we now have these pictures of these 5 - 6 supposedly ALQ people ready to blow themselves up... just before a holiday weekend... so what does that mean? Really don't you think it is interesting that these alleged ALQ operatives just so happen to surface right before a highly traveled holiday weekend so that homeland security can pat down as many American's as they wish with no question.

Once again traveling Americans get to throw their arms up and happily say PLEASE LET ME HELP YOU SEARCH ME.



p.s. I will address another one of your points as well... I am still thinking about it though.

[ramzi]

What doesn't bother you anymore? The constant surveillance (I mean searching through belongings and pat down)? or are you saying all those in the Lebanon area were strip searched? This is the part that is bothering me. I mean I find the whole security thing kind of suspicious as it is, but to think that it could escalate to the point of just being pulled aside for a strip search as if this is normal, kind of disturbing. It seems it may be more prevalent on flights within the middle east. However, on another forum in passing I encountered a girl who has worked with the red cross in the OT's as a nurse and her whole team upon arrival at Ben Gurion Airport were strip searched.


I actually have not been strip-searched. None of us in Lebanon were. I might be more bothered if I was. Then again, I wonder if we were all strip-searched in the same room together...never mind. I would have been highly offended. I am often patted-down with all of my things searched. They’ve had portable closets at CDG where they bring you in before everyone, and it’s pretty embarrassing. I know how you are getting to how this cannot be normalized, and I am cognizant of what is going on, but when it happens to me now, it is something that does not bother me as much (i.e. sans strip-search). It has just become part of the experience. Someone pats my leg, and I say “so, I’m in some kind of a database, huh? Can ya put me in a different one?” Then they get confused or laugh a little, say nothing and let me go. It has not been that bad. Most of the people who have had to check me are not your Bush patriots. In fact, in the states, it has not been bad at all. It’s overseas; when planes are flying into the states, I think that other countries are terrified that they may be letting someone dangerous into America. They are highly pressured and much more vigilant. I almost spat on someone in France. In Turkey, the worst part was when this guy lifted his arm up before me, and I almost passed out from B.O. You would think that I would have been ready for it after Lebanon, but there was much less of a B.O. experience there than in Istanbul.

I do think that the profiling used to determine who will be searched this way is a very big deal. You’re gonna make sure that I speak very carefully, aren’t you? I’m glad that I make you think though:) I think.

Anyways, your point is well taken, if your point is that these procedures should not become accepted. They are infringements on our rights. People cannot be profiled in this manner, etc., but, I’ve found that no matter your view, you do eventually get used to it (and the gov’t knows it—not a good thing, but the way it is). I have simply gotten used to it. I plan for it. I take it as it is, and it does not bother me as much. Its like traffic.

Still, I think that white teenagers who listen to goth music should go through it though because they are a threat too. Over-stressed suits should definitely go through it, and anyone who wears a uniform should probably endure it. It would be nice if I were patted down next to anyone who had a twang in her accent, or that guy who thinks that the A in Arab is a long vowel. Maybe I will suggest it the next time I travel. I mean, it’s not likely that this will go away or become truly random at anytime soon, but until there is a change, it probably won’t bother me while I have to go through it.

[Michele]

I do think that the profiling used to determine who will be searched this way is a very big deal. You’re gonna make sure that I speak very carefully, aren’t you? I’m glad that I make you think though:) I think.

I am not sure it was conscious. I mean making sure you speak carefully... sounds like you have become accustom to speaking very carefully with or without me making sure. I would agree that profiling is a very big deal. I can't imagine why I would be in the web but for the anglophilic way perhaps the "randomness" of it is decided. And I would say yes your post was thought provoking. I like to think... you know...


Anyways, your point is well taken, if your point is that these procedures should not become accepted.

Well yah that was my point.. as well as how astounding it is that it has happened in a way that most are so amiable to it with no question... I am sorry but the timing of these 6 or so from ALQ just before what is a big traveling holiday is interesting. don't you remember how the alert was elevated nationally just before the holiday's in december because of the "intelligence" regarding the female suicide bomber in NYC? Which prompted a higher alert (although NYC has been on orange alert since 9/11) allowing for stepped up searches. Truly what is the best way to search as many americans as possible? Tell them there are suicide bombers before the biggest big traveling holidays and then with their permission pat them down... or whatever...

Oh sure I realize better safe than sorry (and that is how they got us too) but how many more holidays are we going to get this elevation and reports before it dawns on anyone that perhaps post 9/11 we are also being manipulated into abiding by a friendly state of policing...



They are infringements on our rights. People cannot be profiled in this manner, etc.

Yes that was also my point.


you do eventually get used to it (and the gov’t knows it—not a good thing, but the way it is).

that is the problem.

that guy who thinks that the A in Arab is a long vowel.

You mean like the long EYE in Italian or Iranian?


p.s. I still have that one other point to touch upon... I am still thinking.

[cpwill]

whats so bad about being searched?

it always makes me feel better to note that at least the security gaurds at airports are doing their jobs.

furthermore, profiling is statistically a way to make the process more accurate, and if the person has no contraband on them, then they have not been harmed any more than i would have if i'd been picked out of the line to be searched. i see no evil here except that the terrorists may begin to dye their hair, shave their beards, wear eye-color-changing contacts, see if they can lighten their skin, etc.; and if they do that; we'll just move on to the next form of search.

[mahayana]

CP, I think strip searches have been out of favor since a scandal back in the 80's involving some NYC police precincts where female detectives were strip-searching women in for traffic violations, while male officers watched through the one-way glass.

You may have had to show a medic that you didn't have hemorrhoids for you ROTC physical, but unless you've visited a common area in a prison, I doubt you've experienced the invasion of privacy being discussed.

[ramzi]

whats so bad about being searched?

it always makes me feel better to note that at least the security gaurds at airports are doing their jobs.

furthermore, profiling is statistically a way to make the process more accurate, and if the person has no contraband on them, then they have not been harmed any more than i would have if i'd been picked out of the line to be searched. i see no evil here except that the terrorists may begin to dye their hair, shave their beards, wear eye-color-changing contacts, see if they can lighten their skin, etc.; and if they do that; we'll just move on to the next form of search.

Like searching people who look like you?

[Michele]

Okay Ramzi,

I have finally forced myself to read through the whole of this Pipes' article so that I may make my final points in response to this particular post of yours. I wish to point out, and without having read Fatima Mernissi's book which was written in 1975, that my inituition tells me that:

1) depending upon which country one considers, since 1975, I would fair a guess that strides have been made by muslim feminists themselves, something I am not sure Pipes has given much thought to, and instead, like most pro israeli propagandists, he prefers to capture a picture that may well be a bit outdated (not to negate that certainly the most extreme repressions may also be evident --- as I would hardly be the one to challenge the views of a Muslim or Arab feminist without having done my homework), because

2) I find myself wondering if, indeed, having cited Fatima's book at the top of his article, that perhaps Pipes has taken his whole premise for this article from a book that was written 3 decades ago, without also making any reference to any progress having been made by Arab feminists over all that time. Again not to assume that the extremities cited have disappeared entirely, but to stress that some of his points are based on outdated information and therefore should only be viewed perhaps as generalizations (also baring in mind the flaws in his premise as truly this angst he seems to assume is exclusive to Islam is most certainly not, as I have already pointed out in some of my previous posts in this thread).

now that said.



I was not applauding it, but pointing it out. By saying that “You, like many in the Muslim world, refuse to break from your tunnel vision. All you see in the Middle East are a bunch of oppressed women who hide from their men. They see a bunch of whores running around to get tagged for acceptance,” I am saying that both groups are being ignorant by giving too much credence to either argument.

I agree that these extreme views exist on both sides, as does the ignorance you mention. I can not say how in the majority the extremist view from the Arab side toward the Western side is. I can only say, and judging from many of the views as expressed on this forum, that while there is also truth to the very same extreme stereotype that westerners have of the Islamic world (so much based on US propaganda rather than on any working knowledge of either Islam or the Arab culture), I feel it is also important to stress that perhaps, it is to a similar degree as much of a distortion as the fundamental Islamic stereotypical depiction of the western world. In both cases there is truth, in both there exists pretty gross distortions.

However, it is also worth saying that: who is the western world to interfere in a feminist process that is best played out between Arab women and the antiquated precepts of Arab males and not based in christian tenets but wholly based within Islamic tenets or values, culture and history? This is a process that should not be meddled with by the western world (particularly that based upon what perhaps is a wholesomely anti-Arab agenda along with a desire to evangelize the Arab world) even though it is clear that the Islamic world can not escape the western imagery that the old school Islamists are at odds with. The reality is that the old school Islamists abhorence for western imager in terms of sexual mores is not that different an argument then upheld by the Christian Coalition here in America to the degree that the radical christian perspective has been challenged on the basis of censorship.

Questioning the morals and the corruption posed them by hollywood is most certainly not a question that is exclusive to the Islamic world. Islamic resistance to this onslaught has both its merit, while at the same time also to a degree serving as an excuse aimed at holding fast to the male privileges the more antiquated aspects of the religion affords the Arab patriacky. Yet it IS foolish to presume that these customs have only to do with oppression, they did serve a purpose as did Christain puritanism with regard purely to morality. Moreover, it is important to make a distinction.

Most all American criticism seems to justify itself on the bases of fighting terrorism. Islamic fundamentalism in this sense has little, if anything, to do with perpetuating terrorism, it is purely a matter of religious fundamentalism. This particular issue has little to do with terrorism. I do not doubt there are other issues at play with regard to this sense invasion by Western morality, as it is preceived by the Middle East, i.e., concerns for the purposeful erosion of cultural identity, etc. That concern is a real concern.




I think that there are women in both societies who are hidden or exploited, but there is really more to it than a male conspiracy against women—in both cases. Not everyone will agree with this, but I do because I get paid more. Jk.


well yes and no. actually I had a sicilian friend in new york an intellectual, screenwriter and artist who once floored me with his argument that he felt feminism was a communist conspiracy... which for fun might be worth batting around... one of his points was that feminism had broken down the fabric of society (the family) while at the same time it now required two hefty incomes to buy what, pre-women's rights, was afforded by only one modest income. Of course at present I do not remember what that had to do with the communists but for that he felt it had eroded the fabric of our society to the degree that it had to hae been a communist plot aimed at targeting America's social infrastructure. Who remembers. We were both drinking Stoly that night, so perhaps it was the Russian vodka talking.

I still have a few more points... but I seem to have ADD at the moment and can't concentrate anymore.... I will come back and finish up later.

[cpwill]

CP, I think strip searches have been out of favor since a scandal back in the 80's involving some NYC police precincts where female detectives were strip-searching women in for traffic violations, while male officers watched through the one-way glass.

alright, so an abuse-of-power scandal. fire the officers involved and move on. we wouldn't take away automobiles because some people misuse them.

You may have had to show a medic that you didn't have hemorrhoids for you ROTC physical, but unless you've visited a common area in a prison, I doubt you've experienced the invasion of privacy being discussed.

what, you mean like being naked in a room full of guys. sure, military showers are all communal.

[mahayana]

Strip searches involve more than nudity; shall I be graphic? My brother wears disposable latex gloves for these procedures.

[cpwill]

cavity searches? had them done too.

i'm not saying it's not an embarrasing situation, i'm saying that it's still a wise choice and that if you're going to be mad at anybody over it be mad at the terrorists who have made it necessary.

[Michele]

Ramzi,

this is a continuation to you of my post #28 above.



Actually, what I was saying is similar to Pipes’s conclusion at the end of one paragraph, but separate from the rest of the paragraph (just to let you know, I hate myself for arguing for Pipes on this with you Michelle): ”each civilization looks upon the other as deeply flawed, if not barbaric.” That’s really it, and I think that he is correct.

Well thank god he is correct about something considering all the other flaws in, not only his premise, but his agenda, to say nothing of his strange choice to literally hang what is a Jungian angst exclusively on Islam, as I have already pointed out. Don't hate yourself for arguing for Pipes with me, Ramzi, where we may disagree seems somewhat a non-issue in the overall scheme of things (seems we are for the most part in agreement though of course I am not entirely certain that is true). However, I am certainly not shy of either being challenged or challenging. I agree with you on this particular point and actually commend you for having the wherewithall to cull this one point from an article who's anti-arab agenda is somewhat obvious. You are a better man than I a woman in that regard.

I also feel as highlighted in post #28 if it were possible for the majority to separate the agenda's as needed, as well as the facts from the propaganda aimed at hate baiting... the overall tenure of the debates would change as thoughts would be based upon a more balanced understanding. Of both perhaps the American collectives understanding of the Arab culture and vica versa. Until that time comes... well... we are stuck in the black and white wherein as you point out:


We both see things on the other side as much more extreme than they are. I think that a lot can be done for gender equality in the states, but I do like to think that so much progress has been made.


unfortunately... since i have finally covered all points... i must continue in the next post.

[mahayana]

I probably should apologize for bringing up the subject. It was a minor point in a discussion about Islamic versus Western treatment of women. And I do understand that the troopers who acted as they did with me were just following guidelines that came after other officers were murdered during routine traffic stops.

Still, I wonder, Cp, if you draw any line at police power. Are all rights suspendable, if the government deems it necessary? Take away your freedom to protect your freedom, as it were?

[Michele]

Ramzi,

You will need to consult both post #28 and post #32, that is, if interested in my full response to your post. I continue and this is the last one.


I also feel that there is an opportunity wherein both cultures do have important contrubtions to make to both the debate and the discourse especially in terms of combatting the terrorism. I am generally frustrated that (as far as I can gather) there are far too few Muslims or Arabs offering their views on this forum. Remember you introduced the thread hoping that it would cull the perspective of the Muslim and/or Arab posters whom you seemed to imply you knew posted here.

I would venture that if these voices were to express themselves more outwardly a number of things could occur:

1) many of us may be well surprised at the criticism that Arabs and Muslims themselves actually have at the present time of their own culture and religion,

2) we as Americans would have the opportunity to actually learn something we didn't know about the Arab world and therefore not fall as easily victim to the propaganda we are being barraged with.

3) on the more negative side however, due to the depth of propaganda the American collective is subjected to (not all aware of what constitutes propaganda), when those times arise wherein appropriate distinctions must be made in defense of some of the resistance being fought on the ground (most specifically in terms of IP), considering the profiling, and that my views have brought on accusations that I am pro-terrorist; I do understand the reticience and hesitation some may feel with regard to participating more openly.

4) the board is not always monitored as fairly in terms of anti-arab bigotry and that does present its own problems.



To view western women as little more than a bunch of whores seeking attention is excessive, just like viewing women in the Muslim world as completely oppressed and hidden is wrong. Still, women in the west are exploited and neither societies have achieved gender equality.

I agree... and add...so even in terms of this particular topic the Arab and Muslim perspective is in want. That perspective if voiced on board could balance the whole picture in very proactive ways. Particularly if the voice comes, not only from Arabs born and raised in America, but from those who have lived for a longer time within the Middle East. That perspective could help in identifying better the needed delineations and finer distinctions required to really have a more intelligence exchange on this and other related topics. As mahayana pointed out... he knows a pakistani woman that does not feel forced to dress traditionally, and there are times when she doesn't.



Basically, I agree with both ideas that women are exploited in the west but overly viewed as so in the Middle East. There is no question that many women objectify themselves for acceptance,

oh there is definitely no doubt about that... indeed I know both younger and older american women first hand that take the whole of their identity from solely the objectification of both their femininity and their sexuality which they will lead with for they feel they must and/or they are unconscious of the fact that they are doing so not for freedom of there own expression but for all the wrong reasons. And too at times it is most boldly only a well earned and healthful freedom of expression. I tend to feel personally there is a place and a time. It is fact (as aside) that a percent of our professional strippers were incested as children --- and therefore their stripping is indeed a manifestation not of a freedom but of a deep maledy with the health of their own sexuality.

On another note, I find it somewhat disconcerting as well to have acquaintance with younger women who refuse to acknowledge feminism in the least specifically because their boyfriends disapprove of it. It is a complex topic.


but I don’t think that it’s fair to say that this is the main characteristic of women here. Like we focus on female oppression in Muslim lands, they focus too much on what they see as women doing little more than whoring themselves.

all in all you raise many good points, and this yet another one which I can hardly disagree with for there are those american women (of all ethnicities) that strike a nice healthy balance, wherein the whole hollywood picture is somewhat a distortion of things. To a degree, the entertainment industry is legitmizing what in some cases is purely disfunctional and painting it as cool in an effort to encourage a promiscuity that takes its form from the male mentality with no thought as to either the acccountability or the responsibility either gender's freedom of sexual expression does demand. Of course there is room for debate here... as it is not wise to generalize in definitive terms, on a topic so complex . All that said...

I found your choice of title for this thread funny... for some reason I found myself wondering on and off what would be the ingredients?

If "Sex in Islam" were an alcoholic beverage served in a yuppy watering hole. Due to my own ignorance, while I might be curious enough to order it, I would like to know what is in it first. There was a time when my beverage of choice was either a "Sex on the Beach," or "A Slow and Comfortable Screw" which is a combination of vodka, sloe gin, southern comfort and orange juice I believe. ;)

Of course as age would have it discernment sets in. Thus, the playing field is narrowed considerably. More and more, on those rare occasions when I indulge in libation (lol); I find I have to content myself with a "Sea Breeze," which is just vodka and cranberry juice that is in the summer, while in the winter I switch to a "Black Russian" (voldka and kaluha). Just curious, have you ever ordered a "Sex in Islam". Perhaps you know what it is made with? :)

[Michele]

Strip searches involve more than nudity; shall I be graphic? My brother wears disposable latex gloves for these procedures.


please don't be... not on my account... I got the picture an image I didn't really need to run through my mind... the first time the issue was raised. Seems odd to me anyone would be amiable to a random search of this kind, particularly with no statement of probable cause and at the suspension of due process. I must tell you (not that I believe this situation would arise for me personally however if god forbid it did), I would resist.

[ramzi]

cavity searches? had them done too.

i'm not saying it's not an embarrasing situation, i'm saying that it's still a wise choice and that if you're going to be mad at anybody over it be mad at the terrorists who have made it necessary.

What the hell. I think that cavity searches are great for middle class white males between 15 and 55 who listen to rock and who go to church at least an average of three times/year. Anyone who drinks domestic beer should have their butt checked by some dude with tight pants tucked into his boots. Everyone knows that hard rock and domestic beer are the cause of many problems that can be easily resolved by mass anal probes. You're right on CP, now drop 'em, I got something for ya :thumbsup: <--have a seat.

Actually, I don't know the demographics, but I just think that people who are into strip-searches and all about them being used as a means of reducing terrorism should be the only ones to endure it. I think that for terrorists or would-be terrorists, these methods may just be more provoking. Besides, if someone was holding some kind of detonator (or whatever) in his anus, don’t ya think he would set whatever off right in the area where he would be searched—like in the airport near hundreds of people.

[Michele]

i mean I am really not reading what I am reading... It can't be that I am reading what I am reading... you mean somebody likes cavity searches? And of all people it is comedy it must be comedy or I must have read this wrong... but I am definitely NOT going to reread it all again .... as it stymies all sense of logic as i have come to know it...

[ramzi]

I found your choice of title for this thread funny... for some reason I found myself wondering on and off what would be the ingredients?

If "Sex in Islam" were an alcoholic beverage served in a yuppy watering hole. Due to my own ignorance, while I might be curious enough to order it, I would like to know what is in it first. There was a time when my beverage of choice was either a "Sex on the Beach," or "A Slow and Comfortable Screw" which is a combination of vodka, sloe gin, southern comfort and orange juice I believe. ;)

Of course as age would have it discernment sets in. Thus, the playing field is narrowed considerably. More and more, on those rare occasions when I indulge in libation (lol); I find I have to content myself with a "Sea Breeze," which is just vodka and cranberry juice that is in the summer, while in the winter I switch to a "Black Russian" (voldka and kaluha). Just curious, have you ever ordered a "Sex in Islam". Perhaps you know what it is made with? :)Ya know, now that I have read your posts, I will, at this time, only have the chance to respond to the portion concerning indulgence. That is really much more important than any of the other issues ‘cause I’m entrenched in it right now and on my way out for more. I will definitely ask for the drink tonight though. I think that it would have to have some sort of an anise flavor to it, just because one of the biggest drink in the Levant is an anise drink, arak (little like ouzo). After drinking enough, I almost like it, but if it is included in “Sex in Islam,” (where the hell is this thread going to?) I don’t think that it will be very good. I used to drink “Black Russians,” but I would drink them with Tia Maria; I thought that they had less of a syrupy flavor that way. I’ll ask a bartender friend how to make a “Sex in Islam.” I think that it would go over really well with devout Muslims!

[Michele]

Ya know, now that I have read your posts, I will, at this time, only have the chance to respond to the portion concerning indulgence. That is really much more important than any of the other issues ‘cause I’m entrenched in it right now and on my way out for more. I will definitely ask for the drink tonight though. I think that it would have to have some sort of an anise flavor to it, just because one of the biggest drink in the Levant is an anise drink, arak (little like ouzo). After drinking enough, I almost like it, but if it is included in “Sex in Islam,” (where the hell is this thread going to?) I don’t think that it will be very good. I used to drink “Black Russians,” but I would drink them with Tia Maria; I thought that they had less of a syrupy flavor that way. I’ll ask a bartender friend how to make a “Sex in Islam.” I think that it would go over really well with devout Muslims!

well I am familiar with anise as we Sicilians are big on the digestivo Sambuco. I was raised with it... and on occasion do enjoy ending a meal with desert capped off with Sambuco...

as for going over with devout Muslims... well I myself can't say... so I will take your word for it... in the mean time... have fun!

[ramzi]

well I am familiar with anise as we Sicilians are big on the digestivo Sambuco. I was raised with it... and on occasion do enjoy ending a meal with desert capped off with Sambuco...

as for going over with devout Muslims... well I myself can't say... so I will take your word for it... in the mean time... have fun!
lol, gtg, but I really think that the whole thing is kind of taboo.

[cpwill]

IStill, I wonder, Cp, if you draw any line at police power. Are all rights suspendable, if the government deems it necessary? Take away your freedom to protect your freedom, as it were?

:shrug:i just don't consider the "right" not to be searched before boarding a plane to be a right. if you don't want to be searched, drive.

[Michele]

lol, gtg, but I really think that the whole thing is kind of taboo.

I had a feeling it was... as it still is quite antiquated in southern italy (by american standards that is and even there is a great generalization for we do have our Christain fundamentalists -- a bit antiquated (if not repressive to the female) themselves a bit puritan).

The taboo one observes in Southern Italy, which has the young Italian boys ignoring young Italian girls to sow their oats with the tourists (who are preceived to be most easy); this quite antiquated arrangement (which I believe does detriment to the relationship between the southern Italian males and females creating an angst all its own which I myself am quite familiar with) is due most specifically to the Roman Catholic Church and that madonna ***** (or putana) thing so indigenous to the mediterrean in general.

My apologies if I offended you, I just thought I would be troppo americana in the hopes of .... um perhaps lifting the taboo a bit on the topic itself... so that it might be discussed not necessarily between you and I, but instead carry over toward a more compassionate understanding that what makes it difficult to address some topics thoughtful is the reality that West (as vocalized on this board) does heap a whole lot of baggage atop a religion that is not the sole guilty party at least where sexual repression of woman is concerned... though perhaps it may well take still some very extreme forms.... This tendency to negatively generalize does tend to constipate discussion (in ways that I myself an not use to being so restrainted in this mammer) as to the more weighter issues do require a more academic approach... rather than solely opines cast so inadvertently about. This making it difficult to cease the opportunity to actually learn from those posters who perhaps are more intimate with the subject matter and from whom factual details can be learned (and I am not talking about me but perhaps the Arabs and/or Muslims on board that content themselves with only observing rather than actively participating -- and I am guessing here as well --- for all I know they may be participating as well -- although I know for fact some are just observing for I myself have heard from a couple via PM's --- aren't I blessed.)

Anyway...I am not sure all in the ME are devout and would think that there is a large percent that are secular.... but here I am guessing... because I really don't know and I have not looked myself into the statistics.

Oh and BTW I was joking about all of my drinks just to be funny... the only two I do drink on occasion is the sea breeze and the black russian (and with family mostly sambuco although every once in a while I do have a craving for one only after an Italian meal when dining out, with or without family, though I haven't had one in a while).

[mahayana]

This thread has certainly taken some strange twists and turns. One thing that hasn't come up is the Iraqi prison thing. I heard it mentioned in some of the discussions that the nudity and phototaking was designed to attack a perceived muslim cultural /psychological weakness, regarding sex and shame. A form of threatened blackmail, supposed to loosen tongues. I wonder what works on Americans, in similar situations?

To be balanced, I will say that very few of these prisoners have died, and I didn't see any signs of lash-marks on their backs, etc.

[Michele]

you know it is funny you say that Mahayana as I am trying to figure out how the whole strip searching part even came up as the article posted had nothing to do with that.

[cpwill]

What the hell. I think that cavity searches are great for middle class white males between 15 and 55 who listen to rock and who go to church at least an average of three times/year. Anyone who drinks domestic beer should have their butt checked by some dude with tight pants tucked into his boots. Everyone knows that hard rock and domestic beer are the cause of many problems that can be easily resolved by mass anal probes. You're right on CP, now drop 'em, I got something for ya :thumbsup: <--have a seat.

:laughter::laughter::laughter:

oooooeweeeee, okay, okay... i admit... that was classic.:D


Actually, I don't know the demographics, but I just think that people who are into strip-searches and all about them being used as a means of reducing terrorism should be the only ones to endure it.

that seems rather foolish, should only the people who are in favor of auditing tax-evaders be audited? should only people who are in favor of jailing rapists be jailed? of course not, this is a highly flawed justification.

I think that for terrorists or would-be terrorists, these methods may just be more provoking.

:lol: "well osama, i know that i've spent my whole life learning about how America is the great satan, and how i had spent years training and waiting for my chance to kill infedels to ensure my passage into paradise, and i was going to blow up the plane like you said.... but then they didn't make me take off my clothes, so i decided, nah, what the heck, i'll just change my mind and become a peace-loving good citizen after all" :rolleyes:

Besides, if someone was holding some kind of detonator (or whatever) in his anus, don’t ya think he would set whatever off right in the area where he would be searched—like in the airport near hundreds of people.

if he's holding it in his anus then it's likely that it's extremely small, which means that it would have to be properly placed (like, near a window on an aircraft) to do any serious mass damage. any demolition that can be stuffed in an anus, should it be detonated in the anus, is extremely ulikely to do any significant damage to other individuals. and even in a worst-case scenario, if they do manage to kill another (or heck, even three) person then that is still better than them blowing it on the plane, where they would kill many many more people.

[Michele]

you are not calling ramzi, osama, now are you? I must be mistaken. You look instead to be speaking to osama based on a notion you have adopted regarding osama's overall philosophy...okay... I am going to go with that as I see logic doesn't seem serve to us at this time.

Overall, I do seem to have gotten your argument that we don't have the right to question security procedures and your feeling that: hey what is the big deal with cavity searches anyway particularly where our security is concerned. So I was wondering, is there anyway you can come to also address the other point that has been raised with regard to random strip searches, with perhaps no probable cause and no time or space for due process, on the off change that the randomness of the decision is just profiling and therefore time consuming and counterproductive?

[cpwill]

you are not calling ramzi, osama, now are you? I must be mistaken.

:) you are, i'm in no way comparing osama bin laden and ramzi.

You look instead to be speaking to osama based on a notion you have adopted regarding osama's overall philosophy...okay... I am going to go with that as I see logic doesn't seem serve to us at this time.

i was using a psuedo piece of conversation as a way of humerously pointing out that someone who is going to commit terrorist acts is unlikely to be swayed either way by the presence or lack of a strip search. they may be stopped by one, but it wont' change their minds.

Overall, I do seem to have gotten your argument that we don't have the right to question security procedures

no, we should and do question regularly, that is necessary for a democracy. my point is that in this instance, having questioned it, i believe the logic and evidence shows that the security procedure is justifiable.

So I was wondering, is there anyway you can come to also address the other point that has been raised with regard to random strip searches, with perhaps no probable cause and no time or space for due process, on the off change that the randomness of the decision is just profiling and therefore time consuming and counterproductive?

no, i am in favor of profiling (currently).

[Michele]

no, i am in favor of profiling (currently).

well that is nice cpwill since I get dragged up in the profiling and will not allow a strip search under any circumstance...

now what happens if in the midst of all this profiling the terrorists utilized happen to be white boys from one of the anti US government militias housed within the grand ole US of A of which there are many, rather than Arabs... than what good is all this profiling in terms of protecting security or intercepting a bomber?

[Michele]

no, we should and do question regularly, that is necessary for a democracy. my point is that in this instance, having questioned it, i believe the logic and evidence shows that the security procedure is justifiable.



well you know this seems to contradict your overall argument here. And you know I still don't understand how we got on this subject of searches as the posted article has nothing to do with search but instead to do with Sex in Islam. Something tells me a forced and unnecessary strip search would certainly place a damper on that, in most all but the kinkiest of circumstance.

[cpwill]

then the likelihood is that we will have to simply depend on other means; however, statistically speaking, a terrorist attacking the US is much much more likely to be of arab descent than a lily-white farm boy from idaho; so if we're going to search people we're going to get the best result if we concentrate on the first sample rather than the second.

[cpwill]

well you know this seems to contradict your overall argument here.

no it doesn't. there is no problem with questioning strip searches, but having questioned it, i find it to be justifiable.

And you know I still don't understand how we got on this subject of searches as the posted article has nothing to do with search but instead to do with Sex in Islam.

:lol: hey, it was this way when i found it, i didn't do nuttin:D:angel:

Something tells me a forced and unnecessary strip search would certainly place a damper on that, in most all but the kinkiest of circumstance.

not really. i probably wouldn't like it, nor be very happy that i got chosen, and if i missed my flight i'd certainly be ticked.

however, that wouldn't change my opinion on the subject of whether or not searches were a legitimate tool in the war on terror.

[Michele]

NO :rolleyes: not a damper on one's trip but a damper on sex ... nevermind... in any case I will not be one submitting to any cavity searches... I will default my trip entirely if need be or they will just have to arrest me for no real good reason.

[cpwill]

:shrug: you're choice.

[Larani]

if he's holding it in his anus then it's likely that it's extremely small, which means that it would have to be properly placed (like, near a window on an aircraft) to do any serious mass damage. any demolition that can be stuffed in an anus, should it be detonated in the anus, is extremely ulikely to do any significant damage to other individuals. and even in a worst-case scenario, if they do manage to kill another (or heck, even three) person then that is still better than them blowing it on the plane, where they would kill many many more people.


NEW TERROR... ALERT... ALERT

Be on the lookout for suspected Terrorist on all airplanes and be highly suspicious of anyone attempting to moon someone throught the window of the plane as Intel Reports Anal PLastic Explosive are now being used by terrorists. :lol: :lol:

I cannot believe this discussion was even happening you guys are twisted. :devil:

Though I can believe discussion like this taken place in some Washington Think Tank sad things is those guys would be serious. :(

[cpwill]

NEW TERROR... ALERT... ALERT

Be on the lookout for suspected Terrorist on all airplanes and be highly suspicious of anyone attempting to moon someone throught the window of the plane as Intel Reports Anal PLastic Explosive are now being used by terrorists. :lol: :lol:

lol, this reminds me of one of those darwin awards:)

I cannot believe this discussion was even happening you guys are twisted. :devil:
Though I can believe discussion like this taken place in some Washington Think Tank sad things is those guys would be serious. :(


lol, well, you gotta consider the rare; if i can think of it, likely a terrorist can think of it too.

[Larani]

lol, this reminds me of one of those Darwin awards:)


Well I don't know about a Darwin Award if it worked, but it does sound like a good piece for another Airplane Sequel

[cpwill]

lol, no no... three men died in an aircraft crash, it appears that they all tried to moon another plane....including the pilot....:lol:

[mahayana]

Michele, I brought up the subject of strip-searches, back at post #9. And was chastized for pointing out the negatives in both Islamic and Western culture (as far as womens issues are concerned). I have heard of a new magazine started by two Mid-Eastern feminists. Perhaps there is an online link to the perspective you sought when this thread began.

As for the reactions posted here, I find them quite revealing. There are deep fears and resentments, and the cultural conservatives (who want to bring back the past at any cost) can't imagine change as progress. Yet their agendas are at the heart of this conflict.

[ramzi]

that seems rather foolish, should only the people who are in favor of auditing tax-evaders be audited? should only people who are in favor of jailing rapists be jailed? of course not, this is a highly flawed justification.True. I wasn’t serious though. "well osama, i know that i've spent my whole life learning about how America is the great satan, and how i had spent years training and waiting for my chance to kill infedels to ensure my passage into paradise, and i was going to blow up the plane like you said.... but then they didn't make me take off my clothes, so i decided, nah, what the heck, i'll just change my mind and become a peace-loving good citizen after all" Good point, but this is just one of those things. I think that more respect for the rest of the world overall would break down a lot of animosity. Allowing people to appreciate freedom does more for getting people on your side than taking their freedoms away. Afghanis were not raised to hate Americans. We helped them in proxy wars against Russia, until they realized that we used them to battle Russia then hung them out to dry. Then Osama took the opportunity to teach these people to hate America. We already taught them how to fight. if he's holding it in his anus then it's likely that it's extremely small, which means that it would have to be properly placed (like, near a window on an aircraft) to do any serious mass damage. any demolition that can be stuffed in an anus, should it be detonated in the anus, is extremely ulikely to do any significant damage to other individuals. and even in a worst-case scenario, if they do manage to kill another (or heck, even three) person then that is still better than them blowing it on the plane, where they would kill many many more people.I’m sorry, I know that you did not mean it this way, but the imagery is soooo funny. I can’t help but think of a bunch of terrorists shaking their bums at the window before they explode.

[ramzi]

My apologies if I offended you, I just thought I would be troppo americana in the hopes of .... um perhaps lifting the taboo a bit on the topic itself... so that it might be discussed not necessarily between you and I, but instead carry over toward a more compassionate understanding that what makes it difficult to address some topics thoughtful is the reality that West (as vocalized on this board) does heap a whole lot of baggage atop a religion that is not the sole guilty party at least where sexual repression of woman is concerned... though perhaps it may well take still some very extreme forms.... This tendency to negatively generalize does tend to constipate discussion (in ways that I myself an not use to being so restrainted in this mammer) as to the more weighter issues do require a more academic approach... rather than solely opines cast so inadvertently about. This making it difficult to cease the opportunity to actually learn from those posters who perhaps are more intimate with the subject matter and from whom factual details can be learned (and I am not talking about me but perhaps the Arabs and/or Muslims on board that content themselves with only observing rather than actively participating -- and I am guessing here as well --- for all I know they may be participating as well -- although I know for fact some are just observing for I myself have heard from a couple via PM's --- aren't I blessed.)Not offended at all, and I think that most people understand that we’re not serious. There are just so many things that can be done with alcohol nomenclature.Anyway...I am not sure all in the ME are devout and would think that there is a large percent that are secular.... but here I am guessing... because I really don't know and I have not looked myself into the statistics. I don’t know about all the ME, but Lebanon is very secular. I know that many in Jordan are. Palestinians are becoming less secular, but have never been too religious. The Levant is not so religious (and lots of people there drink), and I think that there is plenty of alcohol in Egypt, but I am not too sure.

[ramzi]

1) depending upon which country one considers, since 1975, I would fair a guess that strides have been made by muslim feminists themselves, something I am not sure Pipes has given much thought to, and instead, like most pro israeli propagandists, he prefers to capture a picture that may well be a bit outdated nice point However, it is also worth saying that: who is the western world to interfere in a feminist process that is best played out between Arab women and the antiquated precepts of Arab males and not based in christian tenets but wholly based within Islamic tenets or values, culture and history? This is a process that should not be meddled with by the western world (particularly that based upon what perhaps is a wholesomely anti-Arab agenda along with a desire to evangelize the Arab world) even though it is clear that the Islamic world can not escape the western imagery that the old school Islamists are at odds with. The reality is that the old school Islamists abhorence for western imager in terms of sexual mores is not that different an argument then upheld by the Christian Coalition here in America to the degree that the radical christian perspective has been challenged on the basis of censorship.Absolutely! After all, it took America some time to take many of the strides it has taken. It will take other countries quite a bit of time to evolve in their own way. Our current methods of intervention will only hold them back. Besides, it is really pretty recent that women and minorities have been able to make much of the progress that they have, and others are still trying to stifle that progress (think opponents of affirmative action). While we like to think that we are such proponents of equality in so many ways, only one of our states thinks that gays and lesbians should be afforded similar rights to heteros, and the governor of that state is doing everything to take it backwards. I wonder what Pipes’s stance on gay marriage is. Questioning the morals and the corruption posed them by hollywood is most certainly not a question that is exclusive to the Islamic world. Islamic resistance to this onslaught has both its merit, while at the same time also to a degree serving as an excuse aimed at holding fast to the male privileges the more antiquated aspects of the religion affords the Arab patriacky. Yet it IS foolish to presume that these customs have only to do with oppression, they did serve a purpose as did Christain puritanism with regard purely to morality. Moreover, it is important to make a distinction.

Most all American criticism seems to justify itself on the bases of fighting terrorism. Islamic fundamentalism in this sense has little, if anything, to do with perpetuating terrorism, it is purely a matter of religious fundamentalism. This particular issue has little to do with terrorism. I do not doubt there are other issues at play with regard to this sense invasion by Western morality, as it is preceived by the Middle East, i.e., concerns for the purposeful erosion of cultural identity, etc. That concern is a real concern.Wow, Exactly. I could not have phrased it better. well yes and no. actually I had a sicilian friend in new york an intellectual, screenwriter and artist who once floored me with his argument that he felt feminism was a communist conspiracy... which for fun might be worth batting around... one of his points was that feminism had broken down the fabric of society (the family) while at the same time it now required two hefty incomes to buy what, pre-women's rights, was afforded by only one modest income. Of course at present I do not remember what that had to do with the communists but for that he felt it had eroded the fabric of our society to the degree that it had to hae been a communist plot aimed at targeting America's social infrastructure. Who remembers. We were both drinking Stoly that night, so perhaps it was the Russian vodka talking. You mean feminism is not a communist conspiracy? I think that this should become a poll on this site.

I'll have to get to the last points that you posed later.

[Michele]

After all, it took America some time to take many of the strides it has taken. It will take other countries quite a bit of time to evolve in their own way. Our current methods of intervention will only hold them back. Besides, it is really pretty recent that women and minorities have been able to make much of the progress that they have, and others are still trying to stifle that progress (think opponents of affirmative action). While we like to think that we are such proponents of equality in so many ways, only one of our states thinks that gays and lesbians should be afforded similar rights to heteros, and the governor of that state is doing everything to take it backwards.

and do note during the civil rights and feminist movement when those strides were taking place we weren't being occupied by anyone attempting to erase the religious foundation of our country... of course Nixon might have had a different take on that... he felt the student protests were being fed their propaganda by the ..... you will never guess who? :eek: the communists... who knows...


You mean feminism is not a communist conspiracy? I think that this should become a poll on this site.

perhaps my friend had something there.



I wonder what Pipes’s stance on gay marriage is.

well of course I had to see if I could find what was his stance on that... but he is so busy with his anti-ME propaganda ... I guess he hasn't made his views on gay marriage public yet.

Stop Daniel Pipes Before He Commits Speech Again
http://hnn.us/articles/703.html

The Moderation of American Muslims
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12937

Pipes can't give Kudos on any account. From east to west he really does vibe on those Protocols of the Elders of Mecca.... According to him there are no moderates. Of course I have heard the same thing said about the Zionists. What is the difference between an Extreme Zionist and a Moderate Zionist? You might already be familar with the question.

Can you even believe Pipes had been nominated to the board of the United States Institute of Peace, lol!

Pipes the Propagandist
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086844/

Though he did team up at one point with Santorim on that Cultural Diversity legislation (which in essence was a right wing hillel euphemism for campus watch ---- you know black list the "anti-Israel" academics.org fronting itself as a middle east study organization), I found nothing on his position on Gay marriage.

all in all if I had my choice between pipes and communist conspiracies... I'd rather talk about sex.

:rofl:

sorry I am in one of my moods... I have to do 3 more illustrations for a blister card now.

On edit: Oh I forgot.... I pulled these as well...

Here Are the Muslim Feminist Voices, Mr. Rushdie!
http://www.counterpunch.org/fawzia1.html

Women in Islam: Muslim Women

The issue of women in Islam is highly controversial. While it is generally agreed that the rights granted to women in the Qur'an and by the prophet Muhammad were a vast improvement in comparison to the situation of women in Arabia prior to the advent of Islam, after the Prophet's death the condition of women in Islam began to decline and revert back to pre-Islamic norms. Yet just as the women's movement in the West began to pick up steam in the twentieth century, the same thing occured, although to a lesser extent, in the Muslim world at this time. Feminists in the Muslim world in the twentieth century (until the 1980's) were generally upper class women whose feminism was modeled after feminists in the West. But just as modern socio-political models in the Muslim world after the colonial period began, in the 20th century, to shift from Western models of society and government to "Islamic" models, feminism in the Muslim world began to take on Islamic forms rather than aping the Western feminist form. This has been true not merely for Muslim women but for women throughout the entire third world. Having thrown off the schackles of colonial imperialism, women of the third world are increasingly growing resistant to the cultural imperialism marketed by the West, even in the form of feminism. Hence, third world women, like women of color in the West, are realizing that while they have certain things in common with the struggle of Euro-American feminists, what is best for Euro-American women is not necessarily going to be best for them.

more...
http://www.arches.uga.edu/~godlas/Islamwomen.html

Woman Half-the-Man? Crisis of Male Epistemology in Islamic Jurisprudence

http://www.people.virginia.edu/~aas/article/article1.htm

[Michele]

sorry Ramzi, I got distracted .... one more


While probably this is not what you had on your mind when you posted this article, Ramzi, this is a great site (the one I posted in post #62) for both a better understanding of Islam via the Prophet and it's application to law with regard to muslim women, and muslim feminist discourse. Very interesting.

WOMEN IN ISLAM VERSUS WOMEN IN THE
JUDAEO-CHRISTIAN TRADITION:

THE MYTH
&
THE REALITY

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/womeninjud_chr.html

Tis a pity the supremacy of the west proclaims itself such an authority on a culture and a religion they do not appear to want to understand, even from purely an academic standpoint. I really do believe the complete fixation on the terrorist is a grave error in judgment, for the terrorism, even in the little I have read with regard to the prophet himself, is a separate issue. It seems one has to understand the religion before one can begin to understand the various splinters, for they are applying interpretations to times of war...as the more radicalized version of the legal tenets of Judeo-Christianity, utilized by the Judeo-Christian identities, some purporting a highly unsavvory form of inhumanity.

It really isn't fair to approach any religion via their most radical identities. Think how much more warped Christianity would be if we decided to study Christianity via the Aryan Nation, or any of the similiar Christian Identity groups. It would hardly do Christianity justice. And same goes for Judaism. I can not say Kach does Judaism much of a service, nor did Baruch Goldstein though the nutcases in the Settlements would beg to differ, of this I am certain. So why must we approach Islam via Al Qaeda? It is actually kind of ignorant, as approaches go.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a religious person and do not advocate or wish to be suffocated by the dogma of any of them... but where a crisis like this looms between 2 vastly different culturals ... it is helpful to find some common ground... Like Judea Christianity, one must have at least a working knowledge of Islam before attempting to spew forth pejoratives about the more militant forms, again Christains do become a bit miffed when those of us most irreverent go off on tangents on Christian identity groups without understanding the differences between various sects, ie the dispensationlists verses more orthodox forms of Christianity.

You know in light of what little I have read, Daniel Pipes is a pseudo intellectual *******. Really, this article you posted, but for that one premise you pulled from it, hardly suffices as much of anything that counts for thoughtfulness, not even is the article scholarly, it is a subtle form of hate mongering. It is mostly mumbo jumbo that passes itself off as substantiative, if not definitive, for the the underinformed. Not that I am surprised, but now I am convinced.

Aaron D. Wolf on American Christians and dispensationalism
http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/Chronicles/April2003/0403Wolf.html

this is another from this same magazine. I opened another thread. It is kind of twisted perhaps you can do that thing you did with the pipes article and pull a sentence out here and there, for this is from a christian chronicle, and since I am not a christian I am not sure what form it is advocating from. It is painting in some very broad strokes. I have to read it again. (I am so glad I went out of my way to push the forest from the trees with regard to Islam and muslim fems only to have found this chronicle. :rolleyes: It is a complex world.)

http://www.whistlestopper.com/forum/showthread.php?p=206882#post206882

[Michele]

Ramzi,

There are a number of new posts to you, but this just caught my eye.

I don’t know about all the ME, but Lebanon is very secular. I know that many in Jordan are. Palestinians are becoming less secular, but have never been too religious. The Levant is not so religious (and lots of people there drink), and I think that there is plenty of alcohol in Egypt, but I am not too sure.


okay... please forgive me... because I am now going to ask what may well be a stupid question... mostly on the news or even in coverage I have read on the IP with pictures... we see most women wearing traditional dress... (not always --- I have seen segments on nightline wherein young palestinian women do not)... but....

what am I trying to ask?

Is the traditional dress worn within secular society as well ... I mean does the code of traditional dress crossover into secular society in that even those secular must follow the code of traditional dress whether devout or secular?

[cpwill]

Good point, but this is just one of those things. I think that more respect for the rest of the world overall would break down a lot of animosity. Allowing people to appreciate freedom does more for getting people on your side than taking their freedoms away.

yes, however, taking away searches of those entering aircraft would merely allow more terrorist incidents; and is unlikely to foster any positive feelings.

I’m sorry, I know that you did not mean it this way, but the imagery is soooo funny. I can’t help but think of a bunch of terrorists shaking their bums at the window before they explode.

:laughter: http://www.collegehumor.com/?image_id=54303

(warning, has a picture of a butt in it, don't go there if you're gonna get all offended on me:lol: )

[Michele]

yes, however, taking away searches of those entering aircraft would merely allow more terrorist incidents; and is unlikely to foster any positive feelings.

I wonder how true that really is... I mean are there government stats available to the public on just how many times a terrorist was actually searched and pulled out of an airport line who had a bomb to blow up the plan since these random security searches picked up.

You know my mother is over 70 yo and she gets fully searched and patted down when she travels from S.C. to N.Y. everytime she travels by plane. 70 y.o. She thinks its because the Fed Gov has our name down as perhaps mafia connected which we are not... and I think she is being searched because I am being profiled see I am darkly olive skinned my mom is very fair... So she seems to think it is the Name... which Is why I believe my dad was audited so many times in his lifetime....

She says they go through everything her pockets, they pat her down... she is a 70 y.o. Sicilian woman... I don't know I tend to think some of it is a waste of time...

Of course I understand the peril... but I thought it was funny that she is annoyed by it and thinks there is something fishy about her being searched everytime she gets on a plane to the N.E. of course she doesn't always travel by plane... something is not right there...

I really think she is being tagged because of me... not that there is any reason to tag me...there isn't but I think I am being tagged...

[ramzi]

Ramzi,

There are a number of new posts to you, but this just caught my eye.

okay... please forgive me... because I am now going to ask what may well be a stupid question... mostly on the news or even in coverage I have read on the IP with pictures... we see most women wearing traditional dress... (not always --- I have seen segments on nightline wherein young palestinian women do not)... but....

what am I trying to ask?

Is the traditional dress worn within secular society as well ... I mean does the code of traditional dress crossover into secular society in that even those secular must follow the code of traditional dress whether devout or secular?

Hey Michelle,

I know that it’s been a little while, but hear is a little post:

I think that our media does not like to show Middle Eastern women living with anything that we perceive as freedom, that's why they are primarily covered (something that we seem to perceive as oppression). God knows, most American women are not wearing too many clothes on stations overseas. I think that the cameras tend to stick with what’s been stereotyped. I think that the French and Italians are all naked.

I have not been to Palestine/OT or Israel, so I don't know exactly how many women wear traditional Islamic dress, but I don't think that it is very prevalent. Hardly anyone does in Lebanon. Women do wear the hijab on some formal occasions, it can be like dressing up. There are probably less than ten percent who wear it regularly there, at least, from what I could tell, but Lebanon is also about a third Christian. I think that there are some Maronite women who actually cover themselves just as some Israeli women choose to, but I really know little about these conventions.

What I do know is that the Lebanon that I have seen is nothing like what is shown every time you see it on the news. There may be instances in Lebanon where people must follow certain conventions, but I have never been introduced to them. Women tend to wear whatever they want, but there are places where people should dress more conservatively—like anywhere else. Those places are not downtown, but more in certain areas where people are a bit more traditional or religious; I don't think that even there women must necessarily be covered.

Actually, there are certain areas of Lebanon where a lot of Saudis and Kuwaitis vacation, and they tend to cover a bit more, but even there, people are really quite liberal. Some women do choose to wear a full burqa, but this is pretty rare. At most women just wear a scarf.

As for Palestine, when you look at many videos that come from the OT, women do not wear covering. Students rarely do when Israel allows them to go to school, and I don’t think that there are any societal conventions that dictate whether or not one must cover herself, but there could be pressure. I’m really not sure. I believe that before the nakba, there was nothing forcing women to dress a certain way. I’ll try to post more soon.

[ramzi]

:laughter: http://www.collegehumor.com/?image_id=54303

(warning, has a picture of a butt in it, don't go there if you're gonna get all offended on me:lol: )

That's hilarious

[Michele]

Hey Michelle,

I know that it’s been a little while, but hear is a little post:

I think that our media does not like to show Middle Eastern women living with anything that we perceive as freedom, that's why they are primarily covered (something that we seem to perceive as oppression). God knows, most American women are not wearing too many clothes on stations overseas. I think that the cameras tend to stick with what’s been stereotyped. I think that the French and Italians are all naked.

I have not been to Palestine/OT or Israel, so I don't know exactly how many women wear traditional Islamic dress, but I don't think that it is very prevalent. Hardly anyone does in Lebanon. Women do wear the hijab on some formal occasions, it can be like dressing up. There are probably less than ten percent who wear it regularly there, at least, from what I could tell, but Lebanon is also about a third Christian. I think that there are some Maronite women who actually cover themselves just as some Israeli women choose to, but I really know little about these conventions.

What I do know is that the Lebanon that I have seen is nothing like what is shown every time you see it on the news. There may be instances in Lebanon where people must follow certain conventions, but I have never been introduced to them. Women tend to wear whatever they want, but there are places where people should dress more conservatively—like anywhere else. Those places are not downtown, but more in certain areas where people are a bit more traditional or religious; I don't think that even there women must necessarily be covered.

Actually, there are certain areas of Lebanon where a lot of Saudis and Kuwaitis vacation, and they tend to cover a bit more, but even there, people are really quite liberal. Some women do choose to wear a full burqa, but this is pretty rare. At most women just wear a scarf.

As for Palestine, when you look at many videos that come from the OT, women do not wear covering. Students rarely do when Israel allows them to go to school, and I don’t think that there are any societal conventions that dictate whether or not one must cover herself, but there could be pressure. I’m really not sure. I believe that before the nakba, there was nothing forcing women to dress a certain way. I’ll try to post more soon.


oh well thanks for the information, I am not surprised that your own observations would be a bit different than how it is recorded via media.

but I must say Ramzi, that for the specifics, many don't seem to really care. And any attempt at comparison within which to better ground our understanding, people aren't all for that either. There is nothing to be compared in any way shape or form between the Islam people and us 'mericans. So I am not sure you should waste too much of your time telling me... I am one to seek out the realities as best I can. I feel they are far more important than the preconceived notions that seem to wish we stick to the slogans and jargon of get the terrorists. You know those notions it seems don't require the kind of time actually coming to understand something does.

In general and on the conservative side, I don't get people want to understand. Too many specifics, as you offer, kind of bogs down the vilification process you know it puts a face on something. It seems we'd rather not look too closely at the face, it challenges the calls to war and revenge.

Best we leave it in simplistic terms, you know. Those faceless, countryless (unless of course it comes time to bomb another country), jealous islam people. Whether they wear the hajib or the burqa when or how we don't care about that... Danial Pipes's overview, based on a book from 1975 with all its obvious flaws works for us just fine. It says Islam is bad and by golly that is all we want to know. While I tend to really like them, we don't need specifics Ramzi. So I wouldn't waste your time on my account. LOL.

[willieboy31]

for I am not sure even "civilized" males are any more or less comfortable with female desire than they ever were anywhere? I am not sure they are. In fact I have the feeling Female desire makes males (in general) uncomfortable (and there are many variables) unless they can control it.
michele

If you are a female, as your name would indicate, don't you think speaking about male desires concerning females is quite presumptious and insulting of you. Or is it enough that you base your insulting opinion on all males by your "feeling"?

[Michele]

for I am not sure even "civilized" males are any more or less comfortable with female desire than they ever were anywhere? I am not sure they are. In fact I have the feeling Female desire makes males (in general) uncomfortable (and there are many variables) unless they can control it.
michele

If you are a female, as your name would indicate, don't you think speaking about male desires concerning females is quite presumptious and insulting of you. Or is it enough that you base your insulting opinion on all males by your "feeling"?

just what we need someone to come and take my thought out of context. I was certainly not indicting all men... apparently you misunderstand the context within which that was written.... did you read the Pipes article that I was dissecting and within which context that comment was made... for if you did, I would have to say you came away from my posts with no real understanding of the points I was making or the subject that comment addresses.

All I was pointing out is that indicting only Islam based on their repression of women because of what is a universal male angst as per the work of Jung with regard to the animus and the anima is a male angst and not exclusive to any one culture, albeit the extreme and outward forms of repression still practiced within the Islamic culture vs. the more subtle aspects of objectification practiced in the west wherein it can be argue the same jungian male angst still exists.

[willieboy31]

for I am not sure even "civilized" males are any more or less comfortable with female desire than they ever were anywhere? I am not sure they are. In fact I have the feeling Female desire makes males (in general) uncomfortable (and there are many variables) unless they can control it.
michele

I am not taking anything out of context: your view is clearly stated, and it is presumptuous for you as a female (as well as sexist) to contend that "Female desire makes males (in general) uncomfortable." Whereas, I can tell you that, as a male, female desire makes we men quite comfortable. :D

Also because Jung said it ( your premise) does not make it so. That you were trying to displace the responsibility of Muslims for their repression of women by claiming that all men "feel" uncomfortable about female desire, merely shows to what lenghts you have to go to displace such guilt.

__________________________________________________ _________

"You've made your way from worm to man, and much in you is still worm."
Nietzsche

[Michele]

yeah whatever willieboy... whatever you say works for me... Jung has no business saying much of anything and all his work accounts for, and is applicable, to nothing not even an academic sense. All men are completely comfortable and have no angst whatsoever, neither with their own sexuality or that of women. I guess our high spousal abuse, incest and rape statistics have much more to do with female sexism than male discomfort.

You didn't take my quote out of context and your contribution is very well thought out and um.... high minded and the only males that have discomfort with female sexuality are arab males specifically those that follow that devil religion Islam, just as danial pipes has informed us.

[mahayana]

Willie, (can I assume you are male because of your name?), please be kind to Michele. Feminism is not a simple subject. Nor is the psychology of sex. You should note that the interim government has 6 female members thus far. Iraq was not a Taliban-style government under Saddam, and the hope is that it will not democratically elect a replacement that rejects basic rights for women.

A w