France Rejects God Reference in EU Draft

[TomAZ]

:clap: :clap:



:
Europe - AP






By CONSTANT BRAND, Associated Press Writer

BRUSSELS, Belgium - France said Monday it could not accept references to God and Christianity in a European Union (news - web sites) constitution.






France and Belgium have been most opposed to religious references in the charter, while Italy and Poland, backed by Pope John Paul (news - web sites) II, want the charter to acknowledge Christianity's role.


"I think the text as is, is a balanced one," said French Foreign Minister Michel Barnier said. "The text already includes a mention to heritage."


The 25 EU foreign ministers set down for a new session of negotiations, one week after talks failed to narrow deep differences over a constitutional draft, which should be finalized by the June 17-18 summit of government leaders.


The constitution seeks to simplify decision-making in the EU and prevent a minority of states from blocking decisions.


The place of religion in the charter's preamble has been hotly debated since negotiations on the constitution began in early 2002.


Foreign ministers from Poland, Italy, Portugal, Lithuania, Malta, Slovakia and the Czech Republic proposed a "further attention to a reference to the Christian roots of Europe," at an EU meeting to overcome difference on the constitution.


"The amendment we ask for is aimed to recognize a historical truth," the seven ministers said in a statement. "We do not want to disregard neither the secular nature (of the EU) ... nor the respect of any other religious or philosophical belief."


France wants to stick to the current text which says the EU draws "inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe."


British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw also backed the current text, warning that any mention of Christianity would mean "we have to bear in mind other religions as well."

[cpwill]

:rolleyes:

[Duo_Maxwell]

Cpwill, would you mind if they were barring religion, if the religion in question was Islam?

Besides, it's their business, not ours.

[Jard]

Europe has had enough problems with religion, even between protestant and catholic, to know better then involving it in politics.

It just creates more segregation.

[DeathMonkey]

:clap: :clap: :clap:
Yay France!
Again, faith should be a sacred covenant between a person and their God. If you need mention of your religion in what should be secular documents, your faith needs to be examined.

[cpwill]

Cpwill, would you mind if they were barring religion, if the religion in question was Islam?

Besides, it's their business, not ours.

not if they were historically a religiously islamic continent.

they're not coming out and saying "hey, everybody here is christian" they're saying "we have a heritage that includes christianity"; that's simply an undeniable fact...

[Jard]

Yeh... and we also have a heritage that includes war, repression and death, we now use that as a warning exactly as we do with the mix of religion and poltics.

[cpwill]

no doubt that could be mentioned in the EU charter as well, and possibly should, since it seems the EU is specifically an attempt to get away from that.

[mataj]

Europe has had enough problems with religion, even between protestant and catholic, to know better then involving it in politics.

It just creates more segregation.IMHO, membership of Turkey, Ukraine, and Romania is just a quesiton of time. So: add Orthodox Christianity, and Islam to the mess as well.

[Jard]

V.true, peace was one of the corner stones of franco-germanic trade partnership after the war that grew into the EU.

last night i read obl's letter to america, that letter is proof of the intolerance involved in the religion-politics mix. Everyone to become islamic/no non believers blah blah... israeli agression/america support blah blah...

I just think religion is something so personal it should not be forced unto public matters, especially when we have a multi-cultural world as we do.

[MikeD4o7]

Yay France!
Again, faith should be a sacred covenant between a person and their God. If you need mention of your religion in what should be secular documents, your faith needs to be examined.


good post.

[cpwill]

:rolleyes:
again, the language wasn't a "this is our religion" it was a "this is our history"; something that can hardly be denied.

[MikeD4o7]

again, the language wasn't a "this is our religion" it was a "this is our history"; something that can hardly be denied.


Do you have a link to the actual wording? I checked BBC briefly but couldn't find it. I have my doubts that it didn't somehow carry a reverential tone towards God.... but if it is simply a recitation of history then I may not have problem with it.

[cpwill]

from the article posted above:
Foreign ministers from Poland, Italy, Portugal, Lithuania, Malta, Slovakia and the Czech Republic proposed a "further attention to a reference to the Christian roots of Europe," at an EU meeting to overcome difference on the constitution.


"The amendment we ask for is aimed to recognize a historical truth," the seven ministers said in a statement. "We do not want to disregard neither the secular nature (of the EU) ... nor the respect of any other religious or philosophical belief."

[MikeD4o7]

Do they have the amendment laid out for everyone to read? Call me a skeptic... but it seems like they're just looking for free advertisement to me.

[cpwill]

anybody got the text?

[MikeD4o7]

anybody got the text?


Is it possible that they didn't have the wording of the amendment yet, but were calling for something similar to be added? Or did it sound more to you like they already had something and wanted it put in?

[Jard]

I think its still being ammended but should be ready soon.... (i think)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm

http://european-convention.eu.int/amendemTrait.asp?lang=EN

http://www.eurolegal.org/yurp/euconstitution.htm

enjoy the read :)

[MikeD4o7]

ah, so as it's drafted now, there is in fact a reference to religion in their heritage... it just doesn't specify it as christianity... and that's what they're getting upset over.

[cpwill]

well? they havent' exactly been buddhists for the last two millenia.

[Jard]

spain has a islamic heritage specially down south

[cpwill]

for 800 years, that's right; however, that's a pretty much one paragraph when compared to the entire sweep of european history, especially after many of them were run out.

[cpwill]

there's actually more of a jewish history than an islamic one, in europe, that is.

[Jard]

yep thats why its better not delve too much into these matters... no?

if we say we are christian, 100 years down the line we become all athiests apart from a few extremes then... problems.

[MikeD4o7]

And paganism... since the preamble does trace Europes heritage all the way back to ancient greek and roman civilizations. Maybe it's when we look at Europe from the timeline that contains all of recorded history then it becomes more appropriate to simply say "religions", as the preamble does.

[TomAZ]

At least some of America's founding fathers had the right idea over 200 years ago.

" The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." ( James Madison )

[Duo_Maxwell]

So yes Cpwill, it's okay to bar Islam, but not Christianity.

....need I remind you that parts of Europe were Islamic for a period, not to mention a Nordic as well?

[cpwill]

not saying we have to bar islam at all; i'm simply saying that i see grounds for a mention of a christian heritage in a pan-european document; i think they have a good case.

[MikeD4o7]

not saying we have to bar islam at all; i'm simply saying that i see grounds for a mention of a christian heritage in a pan-european document; i think they have a good case.


As well as a mention of paganism, Islam, Judaism, etc? I think that's why they just said "religions".

[cpwill]

eh, i still think that given it's relative strength a mention of christianity could definitely be argued.

however, i'm willing to concede the point.

[MikeD4o7]

eh, i still think that given it's relative strength a mention of christianity could definitely be argued.

however, i'm willing to concede the point.


And I'll concede that if they just wanted to mention the heritage of one religion for some reason, Christianity would be the one they should obviously go with... I just question the motivation for this push to have christianity mentioned when it seems like such a nitpicky issue in the first place... and simply saying "religions" obviously does suffice.

[Triple_R]

"God" is a fairly generic term. Many Muslims use "God" interchangably with "Allah". Jews, and Sikhs, often use the term "God" as well.

As such, if "God" is being removed due to how it doesn't include all faiths... that's a faulty argument. If it's being removed due to how the majority of Europeans/Franks are secularists (which may very well be the case, I don't know) than so be it. On the other hand, if the majority of Europeans/Franks want "God" referenced in this government document than it ought to be.

I find a degree of speration of church and state that would call for the removal of even generic references to "God" to be far more dangerous than a slight union between church and state that would allow such references if they are in line with majority positions. If the majority position changes, then one can remove "God" at that time.