The Lord Dwells In Zion.

[Michele]

Okay I just got this new international version of the Bible... (unfortunately there do not actually seem to be any of Jewish faith who practice on this forum). I was actually looking for the teachings of Jesus, which I can see requires I read the whole of the new testatment, but I decided to look at the Sermon on the mount in Mathew and in attempting to go there the book opened in Joel... I have this odd thing going with serendipty at the moment... my eyes drawn first to Joel 17:21 (OT) which reads...

BLESSINGS FOR GOD'S PEOPLE

Then you will know that I, the LORD your God,
dwell in Zion, my holy hill.
Jerusalem will be holy;
never again will foreigners invade her.

In that day the mountains will drip new wine,
and the hills will flow with milk;
all the ravines of Judah will run with water.
A fountain will flow out of the LORD's house
and will water the valley of acacias (a)
But Egypt will be desolate,
Edom a desert waste,
Because of violence done to the people of Judah,
in whose land they shed innocent blood.
Judah will be in habited forever
and Jerusalem through all generations.
Their bloodguilt, which I have not pardoned,
I will pardon.

The LORD dwells in Zion!

(a) or valley of ****tim
Edom appears to be in what is now Jordan but I am not actually sure I haven't checked the current map.

It seems to me this is a wish more than a definitive prophecy per se. I am winging it though in the old testament who is the LORD? and I guess one needs to know if this passage is specific to only the Jews or is it specific to gentiles as well?

I would be most interested in thoughts from posters who are Jewish and have more than only superficial knowledge of the book from Judaisms perspective. perhaps Logic85 might have some thoughts on this.

Of course all are welcome to throw in there two cents.... while I now go find Jesus's sermon on the mount.

[marv]

:sleep:

[Michele]

:sleep:

what the hell is that suppose to mean. Boy is that helpful toward any understanding of anything. :rolleyes:

[DRMIZER]

Before monotheism existed, people believed that each mountain top contained a separate "god". In the book of Habakkuk, for example, he proclaims that God came from Teman, from a race of gods. When Moses received the 10 comandments, where did he go to get them? Maybe that give a little perspective.

[Michele]

Before monotheism existed, people believed that each mountain top contained a separate "god". In the book of Habakkuk, for example, he proclaims that God came from Teman, from a race of gods. When Moses received the 10 comandments, where did he go to get them? Maybe that give a little perspective.

well now I am looking at these maps I have in the back of this new international version of the Bible that my mom just sent me. One is the map of the region before christ named the Land of the twelve tribes and the other is the map of the same region named Jesus' Ministry.

Interestingly, I neither map do I see Teman, although I do have the book of Habakkuk, Teman does not appear on either of these maps. And perhaps the map does not include Egypt because on neither map is Mt. Sinai.

Here are the differences in the maps as I already made a post about that:

map of the Land of the twelve tribes. There is no Jordan but oddly there is the Jordan River, though there is Ammon. There is Judah --- wherein is located Hebron at the fringe of Judah is Jerusalem to the north and Bethlehem to the south on the coast is gaza. There is Asher and napthtali, and manasseh within which is samaria... but no nazareth. There is no mention of Galilee. Though there is the Sea of Kinnereth. There is Golan and Damascus but no Syria... No Palestine that is not here on this map not anywhere.


Then we have the map some centuries later same geography which outlines Jesus's Ministry. Still no Palestine... but we have Judea now wherein is located both bethlehem and Jerusalem...and now instead of Manasseh we have Samaria not as a city but as a replacement for Manasseh. Above Galilee is now Pheonicia where Asher and Napthtali once was on the map of the twelve tribesm and what was the Sea of Kinnereth on the map AD, is named the Sea of Galilee. there is mention of a Jordan but only as this one little town with a question mark next to the name and still there is no Palestine.

Well now I know where the "there is no Palestine argument" comes from... these ancient maps, which is funny because at the time there was no Syria or Jordan as we know it now either on these maps and nobody argues that Jordan and Syria don't exist.

It is only now I notice in light of this verse from the book of Joel, there is no Zion either. What is Zion or where is it? Do you know what is meant by Zion? Because it does not show up on either of these maps.

[Texsand]

well now I am looking at these maps I have in the back of this new international version of the Bible that my mom just sent me. One is the map of the region before christ named the Land of the twelve tribes and the other is the map of the same region named Jesus' Ministry.

Interestingly, I neither map do I see Teman, although I do have the book of Habakkuk, Teman does not appear on either of these maps. And perhaps the map does not include Egypt because on neither map is Mt. Sinai.

Here are the differences in the maps as I already made a post about that:

map of the Land of the twelve tribes. There is no Jordan but oddly there is the Jordan River, though there is Ammon. There is Judah --- wherein is located Hebron at the fringe of Judah is Jerusalem to the north and Bethlehem to the south on the coast is gaza. There is Asher and napthtali, and manasseh within which is samaria... but no nazareth. There is no mention of Galilee. Though there is the Sea of Kinnereth. There is Golan and Damascus but no Syria... No Palestine that is not here on this map not anywhere.


Then we have the map some centuries later same geography which outlines Jesus's Ministry. Still no Palestine... but we have Judea now wherein is located both bethlehem and Jerusalem...and now instead of Manasseh we have Samaria not as a city but as a replacement for Manasseh. Above Galilee is now Pheonicia where Asher and Napthtali once was on the map of the twelve tribesm and what was the Sea of Kinnereth on the map AD, is named the Sea of Galilee. there is mention of a Jordan but only as this one little town with a question mark next to the name and still there is no Palestine.

Well now I know where the "there is no Palestine argument" comes from... these ancient maps, which is funny because at the time there was no Syria or Jordan as we know it now either on these maps and nobody argues that Jordan and Syria don't exist.

It is only now I notice in light of this verse from the book of Joel, there is no Zion either. What is Zion or where is it? Do you know what is meant by Zion? Because it does not show up on either of these maps.
My personal belief is that Zion was never meant to be a geographical location it was meant to be a state of heart mind and soul.

[Michele]

My personal belief is that Zion was never meant to be a geographical location it was meant to be a state of heart mind and soul.


yes I have heard that said which kind of goes along with the belief that God is (most tangibly realized) within us, rather than some omnipresent other outside and over us.

[Texsand]

yes I have heard that said which kind of goes along with the belief that God is (most tangibly realized) within us, rather than some omnipresent other outside and over us.
You want to hear something really funny. The Mormons believe Zion is located in the US in Missouri. And after the earth is baptized with fire it will be returned to the paradiscal glory of Eden and will be found in Missouri. I came to the conclusion a number of years ago, that Zion is indeed within.

[marv]

...and how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. :sleep:

[Michele]

...and how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. :sleep:

I suppose you disagree with zion being within... the least you could do is make a post rather than coming up with this nonsense if you have something more to say about zion... or are you sleep walking in a dream state all your own?

[Michele]

You want to hear something really funny. The Mormons believe Zion is located in the US in Missouri. And after the earth is baptized with fire it will be returned to the paradiscal glory of Eden and will be found in Missouri. I came to the conclusion a number of years ago, that Zion is indeed within.

that is funny ... kind of the bliss of religious delusion... well it isn't on the map in this bible my mother thought to oddly send me out of the blue. Zion I mean not on the map... that I can see... for some reason based on Marv's odd bit of code I may venture a guess that there is a whole other interpretation which at one point I will attempt to find via the internet.

[Texsand]

that is funny ... kind of the bliss of religious delusion... well it isn't on the map in this bible my mother thought to oddly send me out of the blue. Zion I mean not on the map... that I can see... for some reason based on Marv's odd bit of code I may venture a guess that there is a whole other interpretation which at one point I will attempt to find via the internet.
The problem comes in trying to take literally something that wasn't written until around 800 BCE at the earliest up to then the Torah was orally given from one generation to the next. The next huge problem is in saying it's inerrant. Maybe they knew in David's day what was meant by Zion but over the ages it somehow came to mean Israel. And with the nutters running around these days it's making the world a very dangerous place for all the rest of the world's popuation that aren't in one of the big three monotheistic religions.

[Michele]

The problem comes in trying to take literally something that wasn't written until around 800 BCE at the earliest up to then the Torah was orally given from one generation to the next. The next huge problem is in saying it's inerrant. Maybe they knew in David's day what was meant by Zion but over the ages it somehow came to mean Israel. And with the nutters running around these days it's making the world a very dangerous place for all the rest of the world's popuation that aren't in one of the big three monotheistic religions.


yes that makes sense... hey by the way... as aside... are you familar with the work of John Loftus?

[Texsand]

yes that makes sense... hey by the way... as aside... are you familar with the work of John Loftus?
Michele,

The name is familiar but I can't place him right now. Can you help my aging memory cells out with a hint of who he might be?

[Michele]

Michele,

The name is familiar but I can't place him right now. Can you help my aging memory cells out with a hint of who he might be?

I will send you a link... but I am converting files right now for work... at one point I will send you a link via PM.

[marv]

Michele,"Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Depending on whichever version of the Bible or Qur'an you chose, it's the first (and I suppose the most important) commandment. In other words, the god of the Jews, Christians and Moslems was not alone by his/her own acknowledgement. As DrMizer pointed out, even the ancient Jews acknowledged other gods, as did all of the ancient peoples.

Man has always argued this or that aspect about his chosen deity. Where is Zion? When will Armageddon occur? What age will I be when I get to heaven? What about my ancestors? My children? Will I have an existence after my death?

Even in the seventeenth century, there was a very serious argument within the Catholic church as to "...how many angels can dance on the head of a pin..."! No joke!

When mankind can finally learn that his destiny is in his hands, and his hands alone, will he ever be free of this pain of searching for the non-existent.

There are no gods, there are no devils, there is no heaven or hell. There is only the search for something we can blame for our mistakes. And none of this exists except in the minds and anxieties and hopes of feeble minds. Only when we are able to cast this foolishness aside can we achieve the greatness that we are capable of.

There is an old joke about the drunk crawling around under a streetlight. A policeman asks him what he is looking for. He replies, "I think I'm looking for my billfold. Maybe I lost it down the block." The policeman asks him, "Why are you looking here, then?" The drunk replies, "Because there is more light here." The drunk represents the human race; looking in the wrong place, for the wrong thing.

That's why :sleep:

[Michele]

sounds kind of like the absurdity as embodied within beckett's "waiting for godot"

[marv]

Michele,sounds kind of like the absurdity as embodied within beckett's "waiting for godot"The absurdity of it all is very appropriate. Are you waiting (or looking) for a saviour? Are you the character Vladimir?

[Michele]

Michele,The absurdity of it all is very appropriate. Are you waiting (or looking) for a saviour? Are you the character Vladimir?

you have a serious chip on your shoulder and you are taking another thread off topic... you enjoy mastabatory activity in public... have fun... as I said in the other thread you are on your own.

[Michele]

ZION -

zi'-on (tsiyon; Sion):

1. Meaning of the Word

2. The Zion of the Jebusites

3. Zion of the Prophets

4. Zion in Later Poetical Writings and Apocrypha

5. Omission of Name by Some Writers

6. The Name "Zion" in Christian Times

LITERATURE

1. Meaning of the Word:

A name applied to Jerusalem, or to certain parts of it, at least since the time of David. Nothing certain is known of the meaning. Gesenius and others have derived it from a Hebrew root tsahah, "to be dry"; Delitzsch from tsiwwah, "to set up" and Wetzstein from tsin, "to protect." Gesenius finds a more hopeful suggestion in the Arabic equivalent cihw, the Arabic cahwat signifying "ridge of a mountain" or "citadel," which at any rate suitably applies to what we know to have been the original Zion (compare Smith, HGHL, under the word).

snip

2. The Zion of the Jebusites:

Jerus (in the form Uru-sa-lim) is the oldest name we know for this city; it goes back at least 400 years before David. In 2 Samuel 5:6-9, "The king and his men went to Jerusalem against the Jebusites. .... Nevertheless David took the stronghold of Zion; the same is the city of David .... And David dwelt in the stronghold, and called it the city of David." It is evident that Zion was the name of the citadel of the Jebusite city of Jerusalem. That this citadel and incidentally then city of Jerusalem around it were on the long ridge running South of the Temple (called the southeastern hill in the article JERUSALEM, III, (3) (which see)) is now accepted by almost all modern scholars, mainly on the following grounds:

(1) The near proximity of the site to the only known spring, now the "Virgin's Fount," once called GIHON (which see). From our knowledge of other ancient sites all over Palestine, as well as on grounds of common-sense, it is hardly possible to believe that the early inhabitants of this site with such an abundant source at their very doors could have made any other spot their headquarters.

more...

http://www.searchgodsword.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T9408