Why do Christians deride paganism yet adopt their holidays and celebrations?

[Duo_Maxwell]

Isn;t that just a BIT hypocritical?

Someone here had a thread about making Christmas a national holiday because we are a Christian nation. They disppeared when someone dropped a mountain showing that Christmas wasn't a Chrisitan holiday, but a Pagan one.

Also, I remember people saying "schools should stop teaching pagan notions" yet they said nothing about many of the holidays that were originally pagan ideas.

besides, what's so wrong with paganism?

[Triple_R]

Christmas isn't a pagan holiday - that is a myth propagated largely by anti-Christians who seek to ruin that time of year for Christians.

Christmas is a Christian holiday (though it has been highly secularized for mass consumption), that borrows certain pagan celebration customs. This was done to make conversion to Christianity easier for converts who came from the pagan religion (all of the early converts to Christianity were, after all, pagans and/or Jews).

Paganism is derided by some Christians for the same reason that any non-Christian religion is derided by some Christians - because it pupports to offer a spiritual path other than the path provided by Jesus - such a path, according to the Bible, will lead to ruination. However, I have no problem with pagan notions being taught in, say, a World Religions class alongside Islamic notions, Buddhist notions, etc...

[mataj]

Christians adopted a bunch of stuff from other religions, not just holidays. It's nothing wrong with there. There's no such thing as copyright law in religion.

Isn;t that just a BIT hypocritical?Microsoft is even worse when dealing with competition.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Yes it is. Christmas was originally Pagan.

http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm
http://www.literatureclassics.com/ancientpaths/magazine/pagan.html
http://truthseekers.8m.com/christmas.html

[Thermopylae]

Well when I went to Church sometime last year (For the last time) my priest gave a surmon on the origin of Christmas, he said that it was converted to a religious holiday from some kind of festival that was held at the end of December.. he also mentioned that although jesus was likely born in spring, the holiday remains in the dead winter so as to grant a time of hope in the midst of winter depression.

But now that I have read one of the links, I find it pretty interesting how he never mentioned that it was converted from a pagan holiday. He sort of shrugged it off as a harvest festival with no relation to gods of any kind.

[cpwill]

it was a great way to reach out to formerly pagan communities.:shrug:

christmas is the only major example i can think of, though. the timing of Easter was pretty much set by the Jewish calendar.

[Craig]

Ryan,

Among other things, the date of December 25th marks the supposed birthday of Mithras, from Christianity's pagan rival Mithraism. Archeologists and theological scholars on the subject tend to agree that the 25th is not actually the birth date of Jesus. Rather, it seems that the December 25th date was chosen to make it easier to gain converts from Mithraism to Christianity.

[cpwill]

eh, the mithra claim is a bit off; i forget where i found it, but i remember one time reading a piece that traced that claim back to the original source, an earnest lady who had twisted some evidence around.

however, the fact that december 25th is very likely not Jesus' birthday is quite accurate.

in reality, i think, christmas was originally a midwinter festival that was altered to still allow folks the celebration in the middle of the (long and boring and stressful) snow season, yet somehow co-opt it into christian theology.

[cpwill]

hmmm... my bad; it didn't actually adress the idea of mithra's birthday; here is the text

We are now ready to embark upon the practical part of our essay in which we consider in turn each of the claims made by Acharya S of alleged "parallels" between Mithraism and Christianity.

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.
This claim, which I have seen repeated in part by the Secular Web's James Still, is a mix of truth and obfuscations. Let's begin with the December 25th part by noting Glenn Miller's reply, which is more than sufficient: "...the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all." This is something the later church did, wherever they got the idea from -- not the apostolic church, and if there was any borrowing at all, everyone did it, for Dec. 25th was "universally distinguished by sacred festivities" [***.MM, 196] being that it was (at the time) the winter solstice.

Next, the cave part. First of all, Mithra was not born of a virgin in a cave; he was born out of solid rock, which presumably left a cave behind -- and I suppose technically the rock he was born out of could have been classified as a virgin! Here is how one Mithraic scholar describes the scene on Mithraic depictions: Mithra "wearing his Phrygian cap, issues forth from the rocky mass. As yet only his bare torso is visible. In each hand he raises aloft a lighted torch and, as an unusual detail, red flames shoot out all around him from the petra genetrix." [MS.173] Mithra was born a grown-up, but you won't hear the copycatters mention this! (The rock-birth scene itself was a likely carryover from Perseus, who experienced a similar birth in an underground cavern; Ulan.OMM, 36.)

That leaves the shepherds, and this is one that is entirely true; although the shepherds did more than "attend" (unlike Luke's shepherds, they were witnesses to the birth; there was no angelic mediator), they also helped Mithra out of the rock, and offered him the first-fruits of their flock -- quite a feat for these guys in any event, considering that Mithra's birth took place at a time when (oops!) men had supposedly not been created on earth yet. [***.MM, 132] But the clincher here is that this scene, like nearly all Roman Mithraic evidence, dates at least a century after the time of the New Testament. It is too late to say that any "borrowing" was done by the Christian church -- if there was any, it was the other way around; but there probably was not. (It is fair to note also that the Iranian Mithra didn't have a "born out of rock" story...his conception was attributed, variously, to an incestuous relationship between Ahura-Mazda and his mother, or to the plain doings of an ordinary mortal woman...but there is no virgin conception/birth story to speak of. [***.MM, 16] Acharya says that the Indian Mitra, "was born of a female, Aditi, the 'mother of the gods,' the inviolable or virgin dawn; this is simply yet another case of her applying terminology [a "dawn" as "virgin" -- so when does the dawn start "having sex" and how?] illicitly. So likewise this word game: "It could be suggested that Mithra was born of 'Prima Materia,' or 'Primordial Matter,' which could also be considered 'First Mother,' 'Virgin Matter,' 'Virgin Mother,' etc..." -- it can be "considered" no such thing except by vivid imagination; merely playing on the psycho-linguistic similarity of sound in the English words "matter" and "mother" and trying to equare "first" with "virgin" isn't going to do the job. Research Assistant Punkish adds: ADITI (according to an astrological website) means Free unbound. Boundless heaven as compared with the finite earth. A Vedic goddess representing the primeval generator of all that emanated. The eternal space of boundless whole, the unfathomable depth signifying the veil over the unknown. (Note, not matter/mother but generator of matter!) The Rig Veda describes it as the father and mother of all gods; it is named Devamatri, mother of all gods, or Swabhavat, that which exists by itself. She is frequently implored for blessing children and cattle, for protection and forgiveness. In the Yajur Veda, Aditi is addressed as the support of the sky, the sustainer of the earth, the sovereign of this world, and the wife of Vishnu. The Vishnu Purana describes Aditi, the daughter of Daksha and the wife of Kashyapa, to be the mother of 8 Adityas (q.v.) (wife of Vishnu or Kashyapa? bit unlikely to be virginal then!!!) Then we have this website Dialogueonline.net - Magazine (comparative research on major religions) where we find: "According to the Rigveda (10/72/2) Brahmanaspati, like a craftsman, created the gods, and the gods in turn created ‘Sat’ from ‘Asat’. The Rigveda (10/72/4-5) further says, “Daksha was born of Aditi and Aditi was born of Daksha, the gods were born of Aditi and Aditi gave birth to eight sons”. This mantra suggests mainly two things - first, Aditi and Daksha took birth of each other, which proposition is never possible; second, the Creator of this universe was Aditi because she gave birth to the gods. But it ridicules more brazenly when refuting such points Rigveda (8/90/15) says: “Aditi was daughter of Adityas”. In this connection, Rigveda produces more than one controversy as Rigveda tots up that Aditi was mother of Vishnu and so Rigveda (4/55/3 8/27/5) clarifies, “Aditi mothered Vishnu”. But repudiating the same verse Vajasaney Samhita (20/60) and Taitirya Samhita (7/5/14) consolidates that Aditi was wife of Vishnu. The goddess, who herself is found in various controversies is considered creator of this universe. Thus, these mantras fail to shed any meaningful light on the basic issue of the birth, motherhood and even creation of the universe by Aditi.", Creator And Creation In Hindu Perspective)

[cpwill]

Acharya now adds in her work iconographic evidence allegedly showing "the babe Mithra seated in the lap of his virgin mother, with the gift-bearing Magi genuflecting in front of them." One is constrained to ask how an icon reflects that Mithra's mother was a virgin, since it is obviously not stated. One also wants to know if any of this evidence is pre-Christian (it is not). Quoting others who merely say it is indicating a virgin birth, yet offer no more evidence, is not an argument. Finally, we are told of the "largest near-eastern Mithraeum [which] was built in western Persia at Kangavar, dedicated to 'Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras'." This is a very curious claim which is repeated around the Internet, but no source is given for it, and Acharya attributes it to a "writer" with no name or source. I believe, however, that I have found the terminal source, and it is a paper written in 1993 by a then-high school student, David Fingrut, who made this claim without any documentation whatsoever himself. His paper is now posted on the Net as a text file. That said, it is inaccurate to start with, since the building at Kanagvar is not a Mithraeum at all, but a temple to Anahita (dated 200 BC), and although I have found one source of untested value that affirms that Anahita was depicted as a virgin (in spite of being a fertility goddess!), she is regarded not at Mithra's mother, but as his consort (though it does offer other contradictory info) -- and it knows nothing of such an inscription as described; and the mere existence of the goddess Anahita before the Roman era proves nothing. Acharya appears to be throwing ringers again.

http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04_MMM.html

[heel31ok]

If a man considers a day sacred or all days alike that is up to him and there is no law against it. It is never wrong to worship and celebrate Jesus for Christians, no matter what day it is.

[Ronnieraygun]

it was a great way to reach out to formerly pagan communities.:shrug:

christmas is the only major example i can think of, though. the timing of Easter was pretty much set by the Jewish calendar.

How to figure Easter's date using the traditional calander.



Divide the year by 19, obtaining a remainder (0 through 18). Add one to the remainder, giving you the Golden Number for that year (1 through 19).

From the Golden Number, you can determine when the Paschal Moon (or Paschal Full Moon) is. This Paschal Moon has nothing to do with the real moon. It is just a date, after the first day of Spring (approximately March 21), which you can determine from this table:

# date # date # date # date
1 Apr. 14 6 Apr. 18 11 Mar. 25 16 Mar. 30
2 Apr. 3 7 Apr. 8 12 Apr. 13 17 Apr. 17
3 Mar. 23 8 Mar. 28 13 Apr. 2 18 Apr. 7
4 Apr. 11 9 Apr. 16 14 Mar. 22 19 Mar. 27
5 Mar. 31 10 Apr. 5 15 Apr. 10

Easter is the next Sunday, after this Paschal Moon date. In other words, if the Paschal Moon is a Sunday, then Easter is the next Sunday.


Anyway, I thought this was interesting. :D


I believe the original Pagan cerimony was originally a celebration for the end of the year, wasn't it? :shrug:

[cpwill]

...im not aware of any of that, i just knew that it was based off of the jewish celebration of Passover.

huh, interesting.

[MikeD4o7]

both Christmas and Easter (or at least its relative date) were already holidays before christianity because they fall on the equinoxes... which represented birth and death of vegetation and vegetatoin gods to any number of pagan religions.

[cpwill]

:shrug: whatever it coincided with, easter's date was already defined the moment Jesus was executed, Christmas was later created, and thus it's date is fully open to doubt.

[MikeD4o7]

whatever it coincided with, easter's date was already defined the moment Jesus was executed, Christmas was later created, and thus it's date is fully open to doubt.


regardless, it's interesting to see how pagan traditions have merged with christian traditions to define our holidays. The easter bunny and easter eggs for example, are derived from pagan myths... just as much of the christmas symbolism has pagan origins also.

[Seth928]

both Christmas and Easter (or at least its relative date) were already holidays before christianity because they fall on the equinoxes... which represented birth and death of vegetation and vegetatoin gods to any number of pagan religions.
Uh just so ya know Easter is the equinox and Chistmas is the solstice. This is why Christmas time was such a celebration for many of the pagan religions. They believed that at least one of their god's life cycles coincided with the sun. Christmas/the solstice marked the rebirth of that god as the sun would ascend higher and higheer into the sky.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Sheesh. How can Christmas originally be Christian when the Puritans outlawed christmas?

Be thankful the human spirit can override tyrannical religious oppression.

[MikeD4o7]

Uh just so ya know Easter is the equinox and Chistmas is the solstice. This is why Christmas time was such a celebration for many of the pagan religions. They believed that at least one of their god's life cycles coincided with the sun. Christmas/the solstice marked the rebirth of that god as the sun would ascend higher and higheer into the sky.


Solstice! That's the other word... I just called them both equinoxes because I knew that they were the opposite sides of the same phenomena. :-P

[cpwill]

er.... dude, we're agreeing with you on christmas; early christians coopted a pagan holiday.

it's the timing and nature of easter that i think is a bit more pure.

the bunny, yeah, that's all from other sources, i've heard that easter eggs are supposed to resemble the shape of the stone rolled in front of the tomb, but as eggs are yet another symbol of new birth, i'll give them the benefit of pagan doubt too.

however, no, i don't think going on an easter egg hunt after easter sunday service is hypocritical; because you are not actually doing any kind of worship with the "easter bunny" and the hidden eggs, you are simply playing a game with children. if you took it seriously, then it would become serious.

[MikeD4o7]

I wasn't supporting the argument that its hypocritical... I just think it's kind of interesting how certain traditions can get wrapped up with other traditions to make up our holidays. I couldn't call you a hypocrite... I celebrate easter and christmas and I'm not a Christian OR a Pagan... where would that leave me? :p

[cpwill]

sorry,i was addressing duo; you sorta slipped in the middle there;)

[cpwill]

agnostic open to celebration for celebrations' sake?

[Duo_Maxwell]

The 8 major pagan holidays, notice the dates (http://www.geocities.com/lavenderwater37/holidays.htm)

[cpwill]

so?

i'm willing to bet passover is at least as old as many of these celebrations; dating from at least 1100BC or so.

[crawfish]

It's no big secret that the Catholic church, when spreading through the world, adopted the holidays of those it conquered and adapted them to Christian purposes. As such, holidays like Christmas and Easter are not biblical in nature and shouldn't be viewed as tenets of the faith; however, I really don't see the harm in celebrating them and using them as focusing points.

Honestly, this is a silly argument.

[MrAmerica]

The Christian religion came to prominance in Rome, when Constantine saw that it was growing exponentially despite all the attempts to stamp it out. He accepted it, and declared Rome a Christian nation. The only problem is that you cannot pronounce a group of people Christian, they have to become Chritian individually on their own.

When Rome "became Christian", the pagan feast days and traditions were incorporated into the church by well meaning church officials who wanted to make it an attractive worship alternative for pagans. To this day in Rome, there is a statue of "Saint Peter", which is actually an an ancient statue of Zeus. They just changed the name. This is how Rome justified the veneration of images and statues, which is prohibited by the second of the Ten Commandments.

Christmas was originally the rebirth of the "sun". It seemed appropriate for Christians to adopt it as the birth day of the"Son." The ornaments on the trees were originally a representation of the planets and stars which were worshipped along with the sun. Easter was a pagan feast that celebrated fertility. They worshiped the goddess Ishtar, which is where they get the name Easter. It also explains where we get the eggs, bunnies and lillies. The lillies were actually a representation of the female genitalia, quaint huh?

There is a lot of paganism incorporated into Christianity, but none of it is in the bible. Even Sunday was originally a pagan weekly feast day that honored the sun. You will only find 8 mentions of Sunday (first day of the week) in the bible, and none of them refer to worship, or have anything to do with a commandment to rest. In fact, the Sabbath (7th day), was observed by both gentile and Jewish New Testament disciples.
"Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures," Acts 17:2.
"And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks." Acts 18:4.

[cpwill]

eh, the motivation for use of sunday had alot more to do with the fact that that was the day that Jesus arose than it did to do with the sun god.

[MrAmerica]

eh, the motivation for use of sunday had alot more to do with the fact that that was the day that Jesus arose than it did to do with the sun god.

That is how the story goes. But try to find some evidence for it in the bible. :rolleyes:

I apologize for stepping on any of the toes of my fellow Christians who may feel strongly about their day of worship. But when you use the bible to debate with atheists or non-believers, you need to base your evidence on what the bible says, and the bible alone. Once you veer off of that solid ground, you will not have a concrete basis for what you believe. You will say; "I believe this." And they will say; "But the bible says that." How do you explain yourself?

Sunday keeping is ingraned into Christianity because it has been practiced for centuries, but the practice did not arise from the bible, or the apostles, it was brought into the church by Roman pagan citizens who were "converted" to the new and popular faith. It became a compromise just like Christmas and the pagan celebration of the birth of the sun was transferred to the birth of the SON. So SUNday, became SONday. It sounds nice, the intentions may be good, but it's not in the bible, and should not be used as an excuse to supercede a bonafide "Thus Saith The Lord."

I have nothing against anyone worshiping on Sunday if that is what they feel is right, but I personally think that if a Christian is to use the bible as their rule of thumb, then they should not substitute one doctrine which has biblical authority, for another that doesn't, no matter what the reasons or the good intentions are.

Check out the articles in this link
http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/free_library.asp?SelCat=Sabbath&SelSec=Pocketen

[MrAmerica]

CPWILL;

Here is some biblical evidence for the continuity of the 7th Day Sabbath;

"And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after, and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment." Luke 23:55, 56

"So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath...On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God." Acts 13:42, 44

"And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there." Acts 16:13

"Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ." And some of them were persuaded; and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas." Acts 17:2-4

"And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks." Acts 18:4

"If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:8-12

The LAW OF LIBERTY that James is refering to is the Ten Commandments, as is evident from his mention of "Do not murder" and "Do not commit adultery."

[cpwill]

That is how the story goes. But try to find some evidence for it in the bible. :rolleyes:

what, you mean that he rose on a sunday? there's plenty of evidence, the synoptics all agree on this point...

I apologize for stepping on any of the toes of my fellow Christians who may feel strongly about their day of worship. But when you use the bible to debate with atheists or non-believers, you need to base your evidence on what the bible says, and the bible alone. Once you veer off of that solid ground, you will not have a concrete basis for what you believe. You will say; "I believe this." And they will say; "But the bible says that." How do you explain yourself?

by showing how your beliefs are biblically based.

Sunday keeping is ingraned into Christianity because it has been practiced for centuries, but the practice did not arise from the bible, or the apostles, it was brought into the church by Roman pagan citizens who were "converted" to the new and popular faith. It became a compromise just like Christmas and the pagan celebration of the birth of the sun was transferred to the birth of the SON. So SUNday, became SONday.

:lol: "SONday to SUNday?" :rolleyes:yes because as we all know 3rd century Roman Citizens spoke modern english;)

"And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after, and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment." Luke 23:55, 56

exactly, and when they went the day after the sabbath (sunday) Christ had arisen, this is merely evidence that Christ rose on a sunday.

[MrAmerica]

what, you mean that he rose on a sunday? there's plenty of evidence, the synoptics all agree on this point...
You miss my point. I do not question whether or not Christ rose on Sunday, that is a given. The problem is that people (man) transferred the sanctity of the Sabbath to Sunday, which there is no biblical basis for.


:lol: "SONday to SUNday?" :rolleyes:yes because as we all know 3rd century Roman Citizens spoke modern english;)
You know, after I submitted my post, I knew someone would say that. :cool:
The rhyme is mine, but the "theology" of it has nothing to do with the language similarities. The rebirth of the SUN was celebrated on Dec. 25, and it was adopted as a celebration of the birth of the SON. It makes no difference whether the two words rymed in ancient Roman (Latin?). The weekly celebration venerating the Sun is older than Christianity. It was adopted by many "nominal" Christians as a way to differentiate themselves from the Jews who became the persecuted group in the Roman empire after the Christians were normalized.

But anyhow, as a bible believing Christian, can you give me any biblical evidence for keeping Sunday while disregarding the 7th Day Sabbath, other than the fact that Jesus rose on that day? Because that, in and of itself is no reason to void out one of the Ten Commandments. As I illustrated for you, Paul and the disciples observed the Sabbath, so why should our theology be different?

Doesn't it seem strange that all but one of the Ten are respected by mainstream Christianity?

[cpwill]

interesting, i've never debated a seventh-day adventist.

You miss my point. I do not question whether or not Christ rose on Sunday, that is a given. The problem is that people (man) transferred the sanctity of the Sabbath to Sunday, which there is no biblical basis for.

the establishment of Easter as happening on a sunday (celebrating the rise of Jesus) i find as more than enough backing.

You know, after I submitted my post, I knew someone would say that. :cool:

lol, well......:cool:

It makes no difference whether the two words rymed in ancient Roman (Latin?).

yes, ancient romans often spoke latin, it was the official language of the roman empire, however, as a practical matter, Greek was the most common language.

The weekly celebration venerating the Sun is older than Christianity. It was adopted by many "nominal" Christians as a way to differentiate themselves from the Jews who became the persecuted group in the Roman empire after the Christians were normalized.

certainly very well could have been one motivation.

But anyhow, as a bible believing Christian, can you give me any biblical evidence for keeping Sunday while disregarding the 7th Day Sabbath, other than the fact that Jesus rose on that day?

what more do i need?

[MrAmerica]

interesting, i've never debated a seventh-day adventist.
Very good! :clap: I usually don't reveal denomination because someone could have pre-concieved opinions.

the establishment of Easter as happening on a sunday (celebrating the rise of Jesus) i find as more than enough backing.
I understand. It is the reason for most Christians. But let's take it one step further. You say that the resurrection is "more than enough backing." But more than enough backing for what? By saying that you think the resurrection was enough backing for changing the Sabbath; it implies that the changing of God's Law was an option all along, as long as something important enough warranted it.

But if you take your opinion out of the equation and go strictly by what the scriptures say, then there is no justification. (Sorry for using so much scripture, but it has to speak for itself.)

"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters." 1 Cor. 7:19.

"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome." 1 John 5:3.

"Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Rev. 14:12.

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil." Eccl. 12:13

"He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?...Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition...And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." Matt. 15:3, 6, 9.

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:17-19.

"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:10-13

"Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good." Romans 7:12

what more do i need?
"Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil...If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words, Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD; And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the LORD has spoken." Isaiah 56:2, 58:13, 14.

The Sabbath is not just for Jews:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise (the heritage of Jacob)." Gal 3:28, 29

"And He said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.'" Mark 2:27, 28.

If the Sabbath was made only for Jews, why was it blessed at creation before there were any Jews? Christ said it was made FOR MAN.

"And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made." Gen. 2:2, 3.

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." Ex. 20:8-11.

[cpwill]

Very good! :clap: I usually don't reveal denomination because someone could have pre-concieved opinions.

lol, well, i guess it's a little hard to keep quiet in this debate, eh?

I understand. It is the reason for most Christians. But let's take it one step further. You say that the resurrection is "more than enough backing." But more than enough backing for what?

for changing the day of the sabbath from saturday to sunday.

By saying that you think the resurrection was enough backing for changing the Sabbath; it implies that the changing of God's Law was an option all along, as long as something important enough warranted it.


If the jews could do it, why not the christians.:)

"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters." 1 Cor. 7:19.

this refers to the famous "gentile" debate of which Paul led the ultimately victorious segment; it is a mirror of his "in christ there is no more jew or gentile" line in another of his letters.

"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome." 1 John 5:3.

indeed they are not for his burden is light.

"Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Rev. 14:12.

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil." Eccl. 12:13

indeed, there is nothing hidden which shall not be made known.

"He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?...Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition...And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." Matt. 15:3, 6, 9.

and thus did he defend his disciples against the charge that they were not following the traditions set by their forefathers when it came to matters of being a strict interpretationist of the Law.

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

exactly. the old deal, requiring sacrifices, was about to be fufilled, and the law written not on papyrus, but rather on His people's hearts.

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:17-19.

"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:10-13

"Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good." Romans 7:12

"Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil...If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words, Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD; And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the LORD has spoken." Isaiah 56:2, 58:13, 14.

correct.

The Sabbath is not just for Jews:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise (the heritage of Jacob)." Gal 3:28, 29

"And He said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.'" Mark 2:27, 28.

If the Sabbath was made only for Jews, why was it blessed at creation before there were any Jews? Christ said it was made FOR MAN.

who said the sabbath was made only for jews?

"And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made." Gen. 2:2, 3.

interesting, are you also a seven-day creationist?

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." Ex. 20:8-11.

sounds like an excelent plan; and fortunately, i have found a job that will allow me to do just that.

[MrAmerica]

Well cpwill, I'm not going to make it my life's work to convince you of this. You have a good heart, and I do not consider you to be any less of a Christian just because you don't see things the way I do. You have an understanding of the most important element of salvation which is grace through faith.

But if you have the time, please visit this link.
http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=668&x=25&y=28

The information summarized in the article gave me absolute confidence that the bible is inspired. I believe it is proof. The thing is, that without the Sabbath, these truths would not have been known. It is evidence of how God blesses obedience.