Is it worse to consciously sin and feel guilt or sin in ignorance?

[anti-NAFTA]

For example which of the following is worse:

1. Someone who keeps doing drugs, drinking compulsively, fornicating, committing homosexual acts, etc. knowing it's all wrong and feeling like **** because of it.
2. Someone who does the above not having the faintest clue that it's wrong and never feeling remorse.

[mataj]

For example which of the following is worse:

1. Someone who keeps doing drugs, drinking compulsively, fornicating, committing homosexual acts, etc. knowing it's all wrong and feeling like **** because of it.
2. Someone who does the above not having the faintest clue that it's wrong and never feeling remorse.Doesn't matter. In any case- sin is business.

[anti-NAFTA]

I'm going to bump this thread. It deserves more responses.

[xexon]

The whole idea of sin is behavior that you KNOW to be wrong, but do anyway.

Whats right or wrong is based upon religious and social standards. There is no one standard for anything.

And for the people who are clueless about sin, more power to them. They are like children. You have to understand sin to feel one way or another about it. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss.



x

[Gale_Force15]

hmmm... this is a tricky one. Sort of like the insanity plea, if you didn't know what you were doing wrong, then punishing you isn't going to do much, eh?

its worse to feel conciously guilty than be ignorant.

[cpwill]

conciously guilty

[MrAmerica]

The bible talks about sinful acts, and also about our sinful nature which we are born into. It is our sinful nature which is what the Christian religion promises deliverance from. Because it is our nature which causes us to sin. It is the human condition.

As for unintentional sin, the bible says;
14for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) Romans 2 14-15

It depends on the heart

[eugene40]

what about when it feels really really and I mean really damn good to sin.... And you don't feel an ounce of guilt for it? How about that?

[mataj]

what about when it feels really really and I mean really damn good to sin.... And you don't feel an ounce of guilt for it? How about that?That's bad for religious business.

[MikeD4o7]

As for unintentional sin, the bible says;
14for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) Romans 2 14-15


Missionary: Believe in Jesus, and you will be saved from the eternal damnation of burning in Hell!
Inuit: I surely don't want to burn in Hell. I'll believe in Jesus. To think I would have burned in Hell had I not met you and heard of Jesus.
Missionary: No my son, God is merciful and would not send someone to Hell if they had not heard about Jesus.
Inuit: But that means that I wasn't going to hell.
Missionary: True, but now that you've heard, you will go to Hell if you don't believe in Jesus.
Inuit: Then why did you tell me?

hehe

[crawfish]

Does this mean that anything's ok as long as it feels good and I don't feel guilty about it?

[MrAmerica]

what about when it feels really really and I mean really damn good to sin.... And you don't feel an ounce of guilt for it? How about that?

Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. James 4:17

Most sin's usually do feel good. Fornication, substance abuse, revenge, they are all tempting because they gratify our carnal nature. They are sins though, because they lead to death and misery. It may feel really good to have sex with a beatiful woman you just met, but if you get her pregnant, or contract a disease, or get caught by her husband, it ceases to be fun and becomes a weight around our neck. People decieve themselves when they assume that they live in a vacuum. Every action that we engage in has consequences somewhere down the line, like a pebble thrown into a still pond, there is a ripple effect.

If you are not convicted that what the bible says is sin, really is sin, then do what you like. I may believe it is sin, but I'm not going to force my moral judgment on you. The bible also says not to judge others, because you may have extenuating circumstances in your life that I am not aware of.

But if you become aware that something is wrong, and your conscience bothers you, chances are it is sin. If your conscience does not bother you no matter what, then you are in bad spiritual condition.

[Larani]

Does this mean that anything's ok as long as it feels good and I don't feel guilty about it?

Depends on how you define Good?

Many define competition as a good thing and yet as MrAmerica said all actions are not accomplished in a vacuum but are like ripples upon a pond.

I have always argue that Cooperation is Good not Competition. There is nothing that cannot be done or accomplished under the spirit of cooperation that cannot be done with competition.

As far as knowing goes, well you have to break it down into it's two variables. Knowledge and the Wisdom. One may know something and yet at this time in their life not have acquired the wisdom that such actions is / our harmful, and often find out to late, but also lets not confuse many actions. There are loads of actions that are not harmful and yet we as a society create disdain for those actions when others do them thus causing damage to those who would do such things. Most damage to people is psychological in nature. Take public nudity or folks who engage themselves at nudist beaches. There is a large portion of the populace who consider this behavior sinful and many consider it sexualizing children if their involved, But there is know real evidence that either of these two cases are true. If one looks at the life of the Zoi Tribes of the Amazon who spend their whole lives naked one can see it is not the act of being naked that is the problem, but in fact it is the act of a majority of the population believing that such actions are wrong and hence it is this majority who are actually the damage makers not the individuals themselves or thier actions.

It is my firm belief this is exactly what Jesus spoke out against when he said,"They place burdens to grevious to be born" Clearly some actions are dangerous and harmful, but inventing sins for sin sake just so one can fleece an entire population for their wealth for purchasing forgiveness what a joke.
Capitalism at its core.

crawfish you said,"Do anything" Jesus said Do onto others as you would have them do onto you. Now if your honest really honest ( which most aren't competition and honesty don't go well together ) How many things have you done this week to others that if the shoe were on the other foot you wouldn't want them doing it to you? If you can honestly say none you in good standing and got nothing to worry about, but if you answer a few or many then though you yourself may not pay directly for your actions your children and your childrens children most certainly will.

[MrAmerica]

Jesus said Do onto others as you would have them do onto you.

Good point Larani. That's it in a nutshell. However, all we know about Jesus is from the bible, and the bible claims that Jesus was one with God, and therefore the author and inspiration of scripture. So we cannot separate Jesus from the other inspired writings which all express the will and character of God. Scripture does talk about modesty in dress and not tempting others to lust. In the case of the natives, they are most likely desensitized to nudity to a great extent because their culture does not differentiate between different degrees of undress., and for them it is probably not done gratuitously. But how many people are not turned on sexually in modern culture by nudity? 99.9% of the worlds population see nudity as a form of sexuality. To be turned on sexually by someone who is not our mate can invite disaster.

[Larani]

Good point Larani. That's it in a nutshell. However, all we know about Jesus is from the bible, and the bible claims that Jesus was one with God, and therefore the author and inspiration of scripture. So we cannot separate Jesus from the other inspired writings which all express the will and character of God. Scripture does talk about modesty in dress and not tempting others to lust. In the case of the natives, they are most likely desensitized to nudity to a great extent because their culture does not differentiate between different degrees of undress., and for them it is probably not done gratuitously. But how many people are not turned on sexually in modern culture by nudity? 99.9% of the worlds population see nudity as a form of sexuality. To be turned on sexually by someone who is not our mate can invite disaster.

The biggest mistake I think Christians make is worshiping Jesus. I think in fact much of what he taught and died for falls upon deaf ears simply because people have turned the man into a Golden Calf. I truly believe Jesus would say if you want to woship something worship the message not the messenger. For there is no knowledge or wisdom in worshiping that which has become dust. "Let the dead bury the dead." As far as modes of undress again as you clearly point out they do not "differentiate between different degrees of undress" and hence no problems because of it. You then say, "99.9 percent of the world are turn on by nudity and see it as sexual." To which I would ask and why do they believe that who taught them that? What was those teachers motives for such an indocrination? I can understand the wisdom of teaching Hey if your cold put on a coat, but I can see no wisdom in teaching that nudity equates to sexuality? Can you? Except maybe to sell more clothes I suppose :)

You also claim, "to be Turn on by someone who is not our mate can invite disaster." Again how so? People can be turn on by people fully clothed. It more about how they think about the person thier viewing then about what the other person is or isn't wearing. And as far as diasaters goes it is not in the sharing of mates that is the problem but in the dishonesty that does the damage. Many a couples have open and honest marriages without problems and the Zio Tribe are Polygamist without conflict.

[MrAmerica]

The biggest mistake I think Christians make is worshiping Jesus.
Au Contrair Larani. I think the biggest mistake some people make is assuming that they can make Jesus out to be whatever they want Him to be. He is not a fictional character that we can reinvent to suit our own agenda. It's spelled out for us. The reasons for the worship of Christ are clearly outlined in the bible. John was with Him, and knew Him better than anyone. He said; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..." John 1:1-14
Thomas acknowledged Him as God after the resurrection; "Then He said to Thomas, 'Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.' And Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!'" John 20:28.
Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:15, 16; "He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen."
Jesus said of Himself; "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8.

Jesus had to be God according to the bible, because only God could atone for the sins of all humanity. Nothing else would suffice. Jesus was not just a good man who died. He was sent to pay the debt for us all. He took our human condition upon Himself so that we could take His immortal condition and live with God.
"All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. And they made His grave with the wicked. But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities." Isaiah 53:6-11
"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6.

I could go on and on detailing bible texts that justify the acceptance of Jesus as an incarnation of God in the flesh, but it is all a matter of faith. But you cannot say that people who believe in the bible are mistaken for believing it.

As for nudity, I won't try to convince you of something that you are determined to defend. But as for me, I'll keep my clothes on thank you.

[Redheat]

You only sin once in ignorance after that it's a conscience effort. Then again it all depends on what you consider a "sin". I think most of us grow up knowing right from wrong so there is little room for "ignorance", however we all make mistakes.

What I don't get is this idea that if you go to church on Sunday and sing a little and pick up a bible you are somehow cleansed for the weeks sins and can go out and do them all over again.

I don't think we are judged on our "sins" as much as how much we attempt to be the best person we can be. If you are true of heart and "sin" but learn honestly learn from that "sin" then it's all cool. However if you go to church every Sunday and lie Mon-Sat, well that is worse and it's not trying to be the best person you can be. If you sneer a homeless person, or refuse to help someone in need, or purposely betray someone for personal gain, these are "sins" in my mind but many would twist them and wrap them in some bible verse to make it appear as though they are righteous. Many on the far right sin daily by judging others when the bible explictely tells them that is God's place. Yet they would not say they sinned.

The bible itself can not be followed literally, it's impossible.

If Jesus died for our sins then why do we still have sin? Why doesn't he come back every 100 years or so to wipe the slate clean again? If he died for our sins then why should we repent?

There is right and there is wrong, you know in your heart which is which. The only one that judges that is yourself, and you are ultimately the only one who has to live with you. Going to church or reading the bible doesn't make you free of sin nor does it make you better then the person who doesn't feel the need to do those things in order to lead a good life.

[Gale_Force15]

Does this mean that anything's ok as long as it feels good and I don't feel guilty about it?

Nope. its still wrong, you just don't know. Remember, you have to take any intellectual argument with a large dallop of common sense.

[Larani]

Au Contrair Larani. I think the biggest mistake some people make is assuming that they can make Jesus out to be whatever they want Him to be. He is not a fictional character that we can reinvent to suit our own agenda.

Whoever said he was fictitious. Certainly not I and I challenge you to find any quote from me even implying such. I do think that he has been embellished by some and put up on a pedestal in direct contrast to what he actually taught in his teachings.


It's spelled out for us. The reasons for the worship of Christ are clearly outlined in the bible. John was with Him, and knew Him better than anyone. He said; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..." John 1:1-14
Thomas acknowledged Him as God after the resurrection; "Then He said to Thomas, 'Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.' And Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!'" John 20:28.
Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:15, 16; "He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen."
Jesus said of Himself; "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8.

I do understand the disciples need to teach in such a way as to speak to the Monarchy / Feudal Structures of the time. Jesus did this often using sheep's and Shepard's and fig trees all abundant to the people of that time.


Jesus had to be God according to the bible, because only God could atone for the sins of all humanity. Nothing else would suffice. Jesus was not just a good man who died. He was sent to pay the debt for us all. He took our human condition upon Himself so that we could take His immortal condition and live with God.
"All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. And they made His grave with the wicked. But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities." Isaiah 53:6-11
"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6.

I could go on and on detailing bible texts that justify the acceptance of Jesus as an incarnation of God in the flesh, but it is all a matter of faith. But you cannot say that people who believe in the bible are mistaken for believing it.

I never said they were mistaken. In fact the only claim I have made is that they are being mislead for financial gain? As it was in the days of the Sadducee's and Pharisees.

If all one needs is Jesus for Forgiveness of their Sins and that God himself does the forgiving then Why did Jesus teach us to be Forgiving to each other? And if I do forgive you then who is doing the Forgiving God or Me?


As for nudity, I won't try to convince you of something that you are determined to defend. But as for me, I'll keep my clothes on thank you.

I am only using that as a example where many can fabricate sin where no sin exists. And that it is the psychological damage onto those that then continue with said behavior who are ostracized and put upon to stop that does the damage. It is mental abuse nothing more nothing less. The Sadducee's and Pharisees were good as this too.

[MrAmerica]

Then again it all depends on what you consider a "sin".
Sin is a biblical term, and it is defined by the bible. It is the violation of the Law of God.

What I don't get is this idea that if you go to church on Sunday and sing a little and pick up a bible you are somehow cleansed for the weeks sins and can go out and do them all over again.
That is a very WRONG idea of Christianity. Going to church is nothing but a worship service. People go to church because they love God and want to worship with other believers. No one is absolved from sin just because they go to church. We are absolved from sin by confessing our sins, and repenting of them.

Suppose you go to visit your aging parents once a week. Does that act alone qualify you to inherit all of their possessions? Or is it the lifelong relationship with them that would make you their heir? Likewise, only those who have a relationship with God, are absolved from their sins, and even that is not fully realized until we die, or Jesus returns. You cannot be said to have a relationship with God if you persist in doing things that violate that relationship. You cannot have a good relationship with your parents if you continue doing things that they hate, even if you do visit them on Sunday.

Many on the far right sin daily by judging others when the bible explictely tells them that is God's place. Yet they would not say they sinned.[/QOTE]
Maybe, but just because they quote the bible does not make them Christian. In fact Jesus warned His disciples more about the "Wolves in sheeps clothes", than about non-believers. And why is it only "the far right" who act like hypocrites? Hypocrites are everywhere, in every walk of life, and in every religion, including atheists.

[QUOTE=Redheat]The bible itself can not be followed literally, it's impossible.
Why is that? Have you tried?

If Jesus died for our sins then why do we still have sin? Why doesn't he come back every 100 years or so to wipe the slate clean again? If he died for our sins then why should we repent?
Sin was doomed at the cross, but it will not be destroyed until the second coming. He died for our sins in the sense that we who believe do not have to suffer the eternal penalty for them, which is eternal death. The bible says that "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life..." Romans 8:23.

You have a completely wrong interpretation of what the bible teaches. Please don't judge Christianity according to the worst possible examples of hypocrisy you can find. If you are intent on finding fault with anything, you will find it. But don't set yourself up as an authority when you really don't know what you are talking about. Anyone can point out hypocrisy, but it takes a little more effort to give an informed opinion regarding an entire faith.

[eugene40]

Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. James 4:17

Most sin's usually do feel good. Fornication, substance abuse, revenge, they are all tempting because they gratify our carnal nature. They are sins though, because they lead to death and misery. It may feel really good to have sex with a beatiful woman you just met, but if you get her pregnant, or contract a disease, or get caught by her husband, it ceases to be fun and becomes a weight around our neck. People decieve themselves when they assume that they live in a vacuum. Every action that we engage in has consequences somewhere down the line, like a pebble thrown into a still pond, there is a ripple effect.

If you are not convicted that what the bible says is sin, really is sin, then do what you like. I may believe it is sin, but I'm not going to force my moral judgment on you. The bible also says not to judge others, because you may have extenuating circumstances in your life that I am not aware of.

But if you become aware that something is wrong, and your conscience bothers you, chances are it is sin. If your conscience does not bother you no matter what, then you are in bad spiritual condition.

Ok,, now I do have a conscience,,, but I don't believe in sin... I mean I have morals,, but they are not told to me by a book,,, they are my own and are derived from my experiences. So i hear ya but I just come from a different place spiritually then you do...

[Redheat]

Sin is a biblical term, and it is defined by the bible. It is the violation of the Law of God.

Ok then keep in that context that means don't tell someone else they have "sinned" because they may not believe in the "Law of God"

That is a very WRONG idea of Christianity. Going to church is nothing but a worship service. People go to church because they love God and want to worship with other believers. No one is absolved from sin just because they go to church. We are absolved from sin by confessing our sins, and repenting of them.

There are plenty of people and I've seen them who think going to church absolves them of all sins. Look at our President, he can lie, cheat, and be corrupt but as long as he goes to Church and says he is a good "chrisitan" then people believe it. Sorry but people who are true believers in God aren't usually the ones who are most vocal in trying to convince everyone they have higher morals. They live their lives and show their belief by example.



Suppose you go to visit your aging parents once a week. Does that act alone qualify you to inherit all of their possessions? Or is it the lifelong relationship with them that would make you their heir? Likewise, only those who have a relationship with God, are absolved from their sins, and even that is not fully realized until we die, or Jesus returns. You cannot be said to have a relationship with God if you persist in doing things that violate that relationship. You cannot have a good relationship with your parents if you continue doing things that they hate, even if you do visit them on Sunday.

If you think a relationship with God is the same as with your parents then fine. I don't. I also don't think Jesus will return or that he died on the cross. Spiritiuality is personal and for me not tied to anything in the bible. I don't begrudge you your beliefs just don't try and make it seem like yours are right and mine are wrong.

Why is that? Have you tried?

It's impossible because the bible contridicts itself, also my guess is you don't make bread made of crap and eat it! So there is NO way to take the bible literaly by reason and logic. You can and people do INTERPET the bible to fit their actions and personal agenda, but that is far different then actually living literally by the word of the bible.


Sin was doomed at the cross, but it will not be destroyed until the second coming. He died for our sins in the sense that we who believe do not have to suffer the eternal penalty for them, which is eternal death. The bible says that "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life..." Romans 8:23.

Ok, so we are all sinners and are so until we die? So why try to live a good life if you're only going to be a "sinner" anyway? Since I don't think he died on the cross the first time, I highly doubt his second coming. However if that is what you believe then fine.


You have a completely wrong interpretation of what the bible teaches. Please don't judge Christianity according to the worst possible examples of hypocrisy you can find. If you are intent on finding fault with anything, you will find it. But don't set yourself up as an authority when you really don't know what you are talking about. Anyone can point out hypocrisy, but it takes a little more effort to give an informed opinion regarding an entire faith

I have problems with Christanity because it's hypocritical and nothing I've seen since I've come to that conclusion has proven me wrong. That doesn't mean that I don't think it's fine for others to believe in it or have faith. I just get a little tired of Christians trying to convince me that if I don't follow their path then I'm godless and I really resent the Christian movement in politics which is one of the biggest problems with the Church and always has been.

None of this however has much to do with "sin" or "morals" either you have them and know right from wrong or you don't. If you are the best person you can be and live your life knowing and trying to always do the right thing then you are not a "sinner" I believe in Karma, that is what goes around comes around. That in my eyes is far more effective in my life then saying I live by a book that is impossible to live by. That's me however and to each his own.

[MrAmerica]

It's impossible because the bible contridicts itself, also my guess is you don't make bread made of crap and eat it! So there is NO way to take the bible literaly by reason and logic. You can and people do INTERPET the bible to fit their actions and personal agenda, but that is far different then actually living literally by the word of the bible.
How do you know that the bible contradicts itself when you have obviously never read it?

I just get a little tired of Christians trying to convince me that if I don't follow their path then I'm godless
The bible says we are not to judge others. I'm not going to criticize you for being "ungodly." I am criticizing you for speaking out against something you don't understand.

and I really resent the Christian movement in politics which is one of the biggest problems with the Church and always has been.
I agree with you that religion and politics don't mix. Not every Christian movement truely represents Christian principles. Christ said, "My kingdom is not of this world, if it were, then would my servants fight." John 18:36

I believe in Karma, that is what goes around comes around. That in my eyes is far more effective in my life then saying I live by a book that is impossible to live by. That's me however and to each his own.

That's fine with me. But with Karma, if you mess up and do wrong, you get what's coming to you no matter what. There is no mercy, there is no grace. It dosen't give one much hope.

[Redheat]

How do you know that the bible contradicts itself when you have obviously never read it?

I may not have read "it" but I READ and have researched the subject. Are you implying there are not contradictions? My problem with the bible is that you can support it and that it's based on writings well after Jesus's death by men who had a clear agenda. Why were some gospels allowed and others not? Why was Mary made into something she wasn't? There are clear issues with the authors of the gospels and while they may have penned entertaining stories they did not write IMO the words of God or Jesus. However again you are free to think what you want

The bible says we are not to judge others. I'm not going to criticize you for being "ungodly." I am criticizing you for speaking out against something you don't understand.

Claiming I don't "understand" because I disagree is a judgement. I understand plenty and I don't agree, it's that simple. I have spirituality it's just not based in the bible. That doesn't make me ungodly or ignorant just makes me different and not of your beliefs. Pretty simple.

I agree with you that religion and politics don't mix. Not every Christian movement truely represents Christian principles. Christ said, "My kingdom is not of this world, if it were, then would my servants fight." John 18:36

I don't need scripture wrote for me, thanks. However whatever Christ said the Church was based on political needs. Constantine was a man who sought power and he was smart enough to figure out that it could be gained throught he church. It's not changed much since that time in that many people USE the church to control the masses.


That's fine with me. But with Karma, if you mess up and do wrong, you get what's coming to you no matter what. There is no mercy, there is no grace. It dosen't give one much hope.

Not true, I have lots of hope. Karma isn't a "getting back" it's a way to view life as being a circle. When you hurt an animal you hurt yourself, when you hurt a person, you hurt yourself, and so on. It's only something that reminds you that your actions could have a reaction. If you put out good, good will come back. There is plenty of mercy, it's not like you get an electric shock everytime you mess up! As for mercy well that as with the bible always seems to be up for interpetation depending on the agenda of the one claiming it to exist or not exist.

[earth]

Is it worse to conciously sin and feel guilt or sin in ignorance?

Depends on how you define sin.

Now I will go by the 10 commandments. Frankly they are a good basis for how everyone should lead their lives. I don't agree with them all but it's a starting point.

Going by any of those, I would have to say if you sin + feel guilt it's better. You have recognized the sin and you wish to atone for it. However, it's been proven with crime that when the floodgate has been open it's easier to do.

[earth]

The biggest mistake I think Christians make is worshiping Jesus.

Biggest mistake any person with faith did is start putting their faith in Religion + a Book.

[Larani]

Biggest mistake any person with faith did is start putting their faith in Religion + a Book.

Don't get me wrong earth, I not saying that Jesus's message should be ignored only that many Christians idolized the man and then ignore what he taught. In fact after reading many of your posts earth I think you follow Jesus's teachings better then many Christians do. IMHO. I don't know if you have read his teachings but it is a constant recurring theme in many following philosophies.

Wisedom does come with a price even if you got to crucify a man to get it.

[earth]

Don't get me wrong earth, I not saying that Jesus's message should be ignored only that many Christians idolized the man and then ignore what he taught. In fact after reading many of your posts earth I think you follow Jesus's teachings better then many Christians do. IMHO. I don't know if you have read his teachings but it is a constant recurring theme in many following philosophies.

Wisedom does come with a price even if you got to crucify a man to get it.

I feel absolutely humbled and I thank you Larani :).

I've actually read the bible, koran + torah though it has been a while and I should refresh myself.

I think the problem is that books are just that, books. There's no proof Jesus ever existed and IMHO he never did. All the books are are ideas. Nothing more. Everyone has the same moral core values. If I have to explain them to anyone they're just not thinking simply enough.

It's when people start putting their faith into a book, person or building is when we start seeing the corruption of faith.

My faith is in me. My God is in me and similarily he is in you and everyone else. My God is also your God. Therefore we are all of the same faith.

[MrAmerica]

It's when people start putting their faith into a book, person or building is when we start seeing the corruption of faith.
Literacy can be said to be the loftiest of human ideals. For it is through the writing down of ideas and knowledge that human minds are expanded and informed. The ultimate value of literature to mankind can be evidenced by the fact that the world’s great religions maintain to have the words of God recorded for the instruction and benefit of humanity. It is clear that even the ancients saw the limitless power of the written word, and if there is indeed a God who saw fit to record His will for us in the form of written words, then it can be argued that the written word is the foundation of all human civilization and thought. But whether or not one chooses to ascribe any text to the mind of a god, one cannot deny that words are the most powerful agents for changing and influencing human behavior and thought. Words can trigger anger, love, laughter, melancholy, apathy, fear, trust and distrust. They can edify or debase us. Words can start wars or create peace. They can cause an economy to falter or surge. They can make a person famous or infamous. They can convict us and they can exonerate us. Words can be a fountain of life for us, or they can be used to lead us into extinction. But without words, or a method to communicate them, we would no longer be human. Our very being and the future of our race seem to depend upon words. That which separates us from the animals is our ability to reason, to formulate ideas and to put those ideas into action. Literature is the means of communicating those ideas from one mind to another, and therefore is the apex of human existence.

My faith is in me. My God is in me and similarily he is in you and everyone else. My God is also your God. Therefore we are all of the same faith.
I'm happy that you at least believe that we are spiritual beings.

[Larani]

I feel absolutely humbled and I thank you Larani :)..


Your welcome and thank you for your thank you.... Sorry just a little excersise I do with my kids to help teach them manners :)


I've actually read the bible, koran + torah though it has been a while and I should refresh myself.

Well like any book one can always glean new insight from a second and third reading.


I think the problem is that books are just that, books. There's no proof Jesus ever existed and IMHO he never did. All the books are are ideas. Nothing more. Everyone has the same moral core values. If I have to explain them to anyone they're just not thinking simply enough.

I won't argue with you about a lot that is in the NT, but there are plenty of Roman documents to at least prove that a man named Jesus was tried and executed by the Roman Govenor Pilate.


It's when people start putting their faith into a book, person or building is when we start seeing the corruption of faith.

My faith is in me. My God is in me and similarily he is in you and everyone else. My God is also your God. Therefore we are all of the same faith.

Yes God is in all of us. My father is in me and I am in Him. I think you got it very nicely. Now go and continue to show the people that they are but one family no matter how much they try to divide themselves.

[jamesrage]

1. Someone who keeps doing drugs, drinking compulsively, fornicating, committing homosexual acts, etc. knowing it's all wrong and feeling like **** because of it.
2. Someone who does the above not having the faintest clue that it's wrong and never feeling remorse.

I would say that both are equal,but I say doing the above and being in denial is a lot worse,because you are only fooling yourself into thinking it is not sin.