My favourite "God quotes"

[logic85]

1) To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of lunacy.

2) Religion easily has the greatest bull**** story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. This invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. If you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever. But He loves you! He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bull**** story. Holy ****!

3) Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense.

4) God found out about the Trinity in 325 A.D.

5) It is an unusual book which begins with two contradictory stories and with a narrative whose time and place are false. Yet for centuries that book, the Bible, has been read as the ultimate source of truth.

6) All animals, plants and bacteria, however different they may appear to be from one another, are astonishingly uniform when we get down to molecular basics. This is most dramatically seen in the genetic code itself which is universal. This fact confirms that all living organisms are descended from a single common ancestor.

7) Once upon a time two explorers came upon a clearing in the jungle. In the clearing were growing many flowers and many weeds. One explorer says, "Some gardener must tend this plot." The other disagrees, "There is no gardener." So, they pitch their tents and set a watch. No gardener.... So they set up a barbed wire fence. They electrify it. They patrol it with bloodhounds.... But no shrieks even suggest that some intruder has received a shock. No movements of the wire ever betray an invisible climber. The bloodhounds never give cry. Yet still the Believer is not convinced. "But there is a gardener, invisible, intangible, insensible to electric shocks, a gardener who has no scent and makes no sound, a gardener who comes secretly to look after the garden which he loves." At last the Sceptic despairs, "But what remains of your original assertion? Just how does what you call an invisible, intangible, eternally elusive gardener differ from an imaginary gardener or even no gardener at all?"

8) Perhaps God didn’t create men – perhaps men created God.

9) God was man’s greatest invention.

10) With soap, baptism is a good thing.

11) Religion has been the root cause of more suffering, bloodshed, heart-ache, hatred, and death than any other idea ever conceived by the human race.

12) Religion is based mainly upon fear and fear is the parent of cruelty. Therefore, it is no wonder that religion and cruelty have always gone hand in hand.

13) Religion is a mind-numbing drug; reality is the cure.

14) It started off as an idea; then became a reality.

15) When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself.

16) Thank God I'm an atheist.

17) Adam was the luckiest man in the world. He had no mother-in-law.

18) If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name in a Swiss bank.

19) God exists in people's minds. It seems like such a simple concept. When there have been thousands of gods and dozens of "holy" books, all different but all claiming the only inspired truth, it should becomes apparent that gods are but creations of the human mind. Yet superstition is very durable. Through fear and ignorance, belief in deities continues to flourish. It has reached the point where it takes courage to dissent from popular belief in the supernatural. In our country religious viewpoints have gone unchallenged publicly for decades, and we are reaping the harvest of generations indoctrinated from infancy to believe in error.

20) The Israelites were all waiting anxiously at the foot of the mountain, knowing that Moses had had a tough day negotiating with God. Finally a tired Moses came into sight. "I've got some good news and some bad news, folks," he said. "The good news is that I got Him down to ten. The bad news is that adultery's still in."

21) If God created the world, where was he before creation?. . . How could God have made the world without any raw material?. . . If he is ever perfect and complete, how could the will to create have arisen in him?


LOL..like to hear some counters on the intelligent ones..and some thoughts on the others... :) :) :)

[ranger]

Do you intend to do anything other than mock Religion?

[logic85]

Wasn't quite the response I was looking for...

Within some of them quotes you will find valid arguments against religion, I was hoping you would be able to actually counter them. As for the others, it called humour. And judging by first impression, I'd say you obviously lead a very stressed out life...LOL.

[ranger]

Wasn't quite the response I was looking for...

Within some of them quotes you will find valid arguments against religion, I was hoping you would be able to actually counter them. As for the others, it called humour. And judging by first impression, I'd say you obviously lead a very stressed out life...LOL.Your title says they are God quotes but I did not see any quotes from God. Just your opinion. Seems to me your whole post was humor. Nothing to counter, they are opinions after all and not necessarily truths. Sorry!

[logic85]

Your title says they are God quotes but I did not see any quotes from God.

:( :( :(

Not quotes from God, ABOUT God..isn't that kinda obvious when you read them?

Seems to me your whole post was humor. Nothing to counter, they are opinions after all and not necessarily truths. Sorry!

Okay then, I'll give you examples of intelligent quotes I gave that you could try and counter:

"All animals, plants and bacteria, however different they may appear to be from one another, are astonishingly uniform when we get down to molecular basics. This is most dramatically seen in the genetic code itself which is universal. This fact confirms that all living organisms are descended from a single common ancestor."

"God exists in people's minds. It seems like such a simple concept. When there have been thousands of gods and dozens of "holy" books, all different but all claiming the only inspired truth, it should becomes apparent that gods are but creations of the human mind. Yet superstition is very durable. Through fear and ignorance, belief in deities continues to flourish. It has reached the point where it takes courage to dissent from popular belief in the supernatural. In our country religious viewpoints have gone unchallenged publicly for decades, and we are reaping the harvest of generations indoctrinated from infancy to believe in error."

"If God created the world, where was he before creation?. . . How could God have made the world without any raw material?. . . If he is ever perfect and complete, how could the will to create have arisen in him?"


You saying that those quotes don't carry an underlying argument with them??!!

[MikeD4o7]

Personally I think that Mark Twain and Robert Ingersoll have some of the most insightful quotes regarding God.

"Man has been here 32,000 years. That it took a hundred million years to prepare the world for him is proof that that is what it was done for. I suppose it is. I dunno. If the Eiffel tower were now representing the world's age, the skin of paint on the pinnacle-knob at its summit would represent man's share of that age; & anybody would perceive that that skin was what the tower was built for. I reckon they would. I dunno."
-- Mark Twain

"He killed all those people -- every male.
They had offended the Deity in some way. We know what the offense was, without looking; that is to say, we know it was a trifle; some small thing that no one but a god would attach any importance to. It is more than likely that a Midianite had been duplicating the conduct of one Onan, who was commanded to "go into his brother's wife" -- which he did; but instead of finishing, "he spilled it on the ground." The Lord slew Onan for that, for the lord could never abide indelicacy....
Some Midianite must have repeated Onan's act, and brought that dire disaster upon his nation. If that was not the indelicacy that outraged the feelings of the Deity, then I know what it was: some Midianite had been pissing against the wall. I am sure of it, for that was an impropriety which the Source of all Etiquette never could stand. A person could piss against a tree, he could piss on his mother, he could piss on his own breeches, and get off, but he must not piss against the wall -- that would be going quite too far. The origin of the divine prejudice against this humble crime is not stated; but we know that the prejudice was very strong -- so strong that nothing but a wholesale massacre of the people inhabiting the region where the wall was defiled could satisfy the Deity."
-- Mark Twain

"A God who could make good children as easily a bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave is angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell -- mouths mercy, and invented hell -- mouths Golden Rules and foregiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him!"
-- Mark Twain

"God, so atrocious in the Old Testament, so attractive in the New -- the Jekyl and Hyde of sacred romance."
-- Mark Twain

"The doctrine of eternal punishment is in perfect harmony with the savagery of the men who made the orthodox creeds. It is in harmony with torture, with flaying alive, and with burnings. The men who burned their fellow-men for a moment, believed that God would burn his enemies forever."
-- Robert Green Ingersoll

"We have heard talk enough. We have listened to all the drowsy, idealess, vapid sermons that we wish to hear. We have read your Bible and the works of your best minds. We have heard your prayers, your solemn groans and your reverential amens. All these amount to less than nothing. We want one fact. We beg at the doors of your churches for just one little fact. We pass our hats along your pews and under your pulpits and implore you for just one fact. We know all about your mouldy wonders and your stale miracles. We want a this year's fact. We ask only one. Give us one fact for charity. Your miracles are too ancient. The witnesses have been dead for nearly two thousand years."
-- Robert Green Ingersoll

"Who can over estimate the progress of the world if all the money wasted in superstition could be used to enlighten, elevate and civilize mankind?"
-- Robert Green Ingersoll

"We have already compared the benefits of theology and science. When the theologian governed the world, it was covered with huts and hovels for the many, palaces and cathedrals for the few. To nearly all the children of men, reading and writing were unknown arts. The poor were clad in rags and skins -- they devoured crusts, and gnawed bones. The day of Science dawned, and the luxuries of a century ago are the necessities of to-day. Men in the middle ranks of life have more of the conveniences and elegancies than the princes and kings of the theological times. But above and over all this, is the development of mind. There is more of value in the brain of an average man of to-day -- of a master-mechanic, of a chemist, of a naturalist, of an inventor, than there was in the brain of the world four hundred years ago.
These blessings did not fall from the skies. These benefits did not drop from the outstretched hands of priests. They were not found in cathedrals or behind altars -- neither were they searched for with holy candles. They were not discovered by the closed eyes of prayer, nor did they come in answer to superstitious supplication. They are the children of freedom, the gifts of reason, observation and experience -- and for them all, man is indebted to man."
-- Robert Green Ingersoll

"The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance, called "faith."
-- Robert Green Ingersoll

[ranger]

"All animals, plants and bacteria, however different they may appear to be from one another, are astonishingly uniform when we get down to molecular basics. This is most dramatically seen in the genetic code itself which is universal. This fact confirms that all living organisms are descended from a single common ancestor."You are right, they were all created by one God. Now, who do you believe that ancestor to be?

"God exists in people's minds. It seems like such a simple concept. That is your opinion, I disagree and neither of us can prove it
When there have been thousands of gods and dozens of "holy" books, all different but all claiming the only inspired truth, it should becomes apparent that gods are but creations of the human mind. Not a good argument, just because there are many does not meen they are all false
Yet superstition is very durable. Through fear and ignorance, belief in deities continues to flourish. It has reached the point where it takes courage to dissent from popular belief in the supernatural. In our country religious viewpoints have gone unchallenged publicly for decades, and we are reaping the harvest of generations indoctrinated from infancy to believe in error."
You are kidding right? Never heard of Madeline Murry Ohare?

"If God created the world, where was he before creation?God is not held to our reality of space, time and matter.

How could God have made the world without any raw material? I would guess the same way your nothing did at the big bang.
If he is ever perfect and complete, how could the will to create have arisen in him?" What? He is God, he can do anything he pleases.

[some_crazy_red]

Responses to logic85's quotes:

1.This is true, but does not refute belief in God.

2. Whoever said this has a severely flawed view of Christianity. First off, the part aboot Hell and Ten Commandments- that's what Christianity is all aboot, being SAVED from this place of fire and burning and stuff precisely because this invisible man loves us, and is bending his own rules a bit.

3. I have yet to see a conclusive argument against the existance of God.

5. I don't know aboot that conflicting stories part...maybe one of you who knows atheism better than me can explain it.

6. From what I know, they are similar on the molecular level because the molecules required for life are very similar.

10. Of course it is! :D

11. Sadly, this is true. It has, however, also been the solace and only hope of the same margin.

12. I would submit that not all religion is based on fear. Sure, a lot of members of major religions belief because they are afraid of Hell, but many believe because they A. Want to believe in something higher or B. Want some sort of comfort and thing they can claim helps them.

19. This is the best one on there. Let's look at it more closely:
All things that are explained in many different ways are false.
Religion is explained in many different ways.
Ergo, religion is false.
I sit corrected if my syllogism has not done justice to your argument. Following this line of reasoning, it would seem that Government is false, and Education is false, and the events of countless trials are false as well. This is obviously not the case, so it can be reasonably concluded that this statement is false.


I will respond to Miked4o7's use of the problem of evil at a later time, as theres a rather large chunk of theology i must read to find out how to do so.

To the argument based on the benefits of rulers, I would agree wholeheartedlt that it is best to live in a society with seperation of church and state, because of the truth of the abuse of religion in the middle ages.

The last quote from Ingersoll is true as well, and my solution is that reason and religion can go together, and that reason can lead any open minded person to religion.

[MikeD4o7]

I will respond to Miked4o7's use of the problem of evil at a later time, as theres a rather large chunk of theology i must read to find out how to do so


The only explanation that I've ever seen given is that evil comes from humanity's free will and our ability to choose evil instead of good... and that is the root of all evil. In my opinion though, there are certain things in the Bible that God does that I don't see how they can be viewed as anything other than evil. Some of them are major too. Let me set up a hypothetical situation... lets say that I was planning on having a child and I built a new room for them to have. Lets say I build this extremely comfortable play area, but with no walls... and outside of the play area I put shards of broken glass, hot coals, etc so that if the child did make the wrong choice and went outside of the play area, it would feel as much pain as possible and would suffer for the rest of its existence. Would you consider me a loving father? Because that's pretty much what God supposedly did. Built this world... told us what to do ("worship me"), then designed the most extreme place of suffering for those who didn't obey. This is absolutely ludicrous to me... and the idea that a loving God would create such a situation defies everything I know about the word "love".


The last quote from Ingersoll is true as well, and my solution is that reason and religion can go together, and that reason can lead any open minded person to religion.


That's what I like to hear... but I just see too many problems with the Christian/Jewish/Islamic version of "God" to give it any credibility. The bottom line is that if I was given infinite time, power, and resources... I'm pretty sure I could come up with a better scheme of life then the one we have. I think that if I did the same exact thing that the Christian God supposedly did, but decided to scratch the invention of hell off of my to do list... then I would already be a better God. That alone is enough for me to dismiss the traditional western idea of God as nothing more than a barbaric myth... and there are plenty of other things that don't add up about that myth that affirm it.

[2ruballa]

[QUOTE=MikeD4o7]The only explanation that I've ever seen given is that evil comes from humanity's free will and our ability to choose evil instead of good... and that is the root of all evil. In my opinion though, there are certain things in the Bible that God does that I don't see how they can be viewed as anything other than evil. Some of them are major too. Let me set up a hypothetical situation... lets say that I was planning on having a child and I built a new room for them to have. Lets say I build this extremely comfortable play area, but with no walls... and outside of the play area I put shards of broken glass, hot coals, etc so that if the child did make the wrong choice and went outside of the play area, it would feel as much pain as possible and would suffer for the rest of its existence. Would you consider me a loving father? Because that's pretty much what God supposedly did. Built this world... told us what to do ("worship me"), then designed the most extreme place of suffering for those who didn't obey. This is absolutely ludicrous to me... and the idea that a loving God would create such a situation defies everything I know about the word "love".

When a father disciplines his young son, the child may be mad at his father. Even though the father loves his child, the child rebels and hates his father because the child is ignorant of the truth and does not percieve the love that is actually there.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he perfers to be true, rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible, has always astounded me. We long for a caring universe to save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of the mountains of evidence to the contrary, we will pin all our hopes on the slimest of doubts. God has not be proven not to exist, therefore he must exist! -- Academician Prokhor Zakharov, "For I Have Tasted The Fruit"

Just for you logic, just for you.

[MikeD4o7]

When a father disciplines his young son, the child may be mad at his father. Even though the father loves his child, the child rebels and hates his father because the child is ignorant of the truth and does not percieve the love that is actually there.


And the punishment for not bowing to an egotistical God that favors praise for himself above all else in the universe is eternal punishment and suffering?... this is not justifiable by any father, even an omnipotent one. Really look at the rhetoric in both the NT and the OT... what comes across as THE most important thing to God? Worship and prasing him... why is this? What do we think of a human that, above all else, wants to be praised for his accomplishments? Why should we think differently of a God that seeks the same?

[2ruballa]

And the punishment for not bowing to an egotistical God that favors praise for himself above all else in the universe is eternal punishment and suffering?... this is not justifiable by any father, even an omnipotent one.

It would be justifiable by a Holy Father with righteous wrath.
THAT punishment is for those who have commited the eternal sin.


1Another time he went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Stand up in front of everyone."
4Then Jesus asked them, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they remained silent.
5He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

Crowds Follow Jesus

7Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the lake, and a large crowd from Galilee followed. 8When they heard all he was doing, many people came to him from Judea, Jerusalem, Idumea, and the regions across the Jordan and around Tyre and Sidon. 9Because of the crowd he told his disciples to have a small boat ready for him, to keep the people from crowding him. 10For he had healed many, so that those with diseases were pushing forward to touch him. 11Whenever the evil[1] spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, "You are the Son of God." 12But he gave them strict orders not to tell who he was.

The Appointing of the Twelve Apostles

13Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14He appointed twelve--designating them apostles[2] --that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15and to have authority to drive out demons. 16These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter); 17James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder); 18Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot 19and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

Jesus and Beelzebub

20Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
22And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebub[3] ! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."
23So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. 28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
30He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."

Jesus' Mother and Brothers

31Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."
33"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.
34Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

***
verses 1-6 is a prime example between the fight of pure evil against pure goodness


Really look at the rhetoric in both the NT and the OT... what comes across as THE most important thing to God? Worship and prasing him... why is this?

Leviticus 19 OT

Various Laws

v1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: 'Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy.

v18 " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD .

***

Mark ch 12 NT

The Greatest Commandment

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[5] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[6] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[7] There is no commandment greater than these."

***

God wants us to be holy just like him. He wants your heart to be filled with good and not evil. He wants people to acknowledge the importance of being holy.

What do we think of a human that, above all else, wants to be praised for his accomplishments? Why should we think differently of a God that seeks the same?

God does not seek praise above all else. He seeks holiness.

[logic85]

Ranger wrote:
You are right, they were all created by one God. Now, who do you believe that ancestor to be?

Obviously I don't know because what ever that was has now evolved into other things..duh...

He also wrote:
Not a good argument, just because there are many does not meen they are all false

You miss the point of the argument. It is not saying God does not exist just because there are loads of religions. It is arguing that if so many different cultures and peoples have all created "Gods" and "holy books" with their own prophets and laws, then surely this is proof that it doesnt matter where or who you are, you will always make up the idea of a "God" or "Gods" to satisfy your curiosity. Even the Romans had lots of Gods. Although, nowadays more and more people are becoming atheist because we now have science, and this can explain many of the natural phenomena that 2000 years ago people just said was the work of "God."

some_crazy_red wrote:
5. I don't know aboot that conflicting stories part...maybe one of you who knows atheism better than me can explain it.

Read the bible. Actually, just read the first chapter..if you cannot see two conflicting creation stories then you need your eyes checked..and the same goes with the flood story..and a whole load of other things...

[crawfish]

2) Religion easily has the greatest bull**** story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. This invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. If you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever. But He loves you! He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bull**** story. Holy ****!

Funny quote, but it demonstrates the author's general misunderstanding of Christianity in general, and our belief of the nature of God and his law. The author is attacking interpretation rather than source; it's like discrediting evolution by attacking an evolutionist who really doesn't understand the theory.

3) Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense.

You see, here is another misunderstanding...people think that God has been *killed* by science and thought, when in fact he is strenthened by it. Again, the author is attacking interpretation rather than source.

6) All animals, plants and bacteria, however different they may appear to be from one another, are astonishingly uniform when we get down to molecular basics. This is most dramatically seen in the genetic code itself which is universal. This fact confirms that all living organisms are descended from a single common ancestor.

For one, "confirms" is a rather strong word that any credible scientist would have trouble with. In addition, it does nothing to disprove the God of the bible.

11) Religion has been the root cause of more suffering, bloodshed, heart-ache, hatred, and death than any other idea ever conceived by the human race.

It has also been the root cause of more joy, charity, love, caring, self-sacrifice and ease of pain than anthing else. Religion is like a nice sweater with a few loose threads; you pull the threads and the entire sweater falls apart. It is the BASIS for our humanity - but the duality of human nature, the fact that both evil and good come from the same source, causes much evil to be done along with the good. In other words - the more potent something is, the more effective it is for good AND evil.

12) Religion is based mainly upon fear and fear is the parent of cruelty. Therefore, it is no wonder that religion and cruelty have always gone hand in hand.

Cruelty has hardly needed religion to exist. In fact, the most cruel regimes of the past 100 years have been decidedly unreligious. Religion is also responsible for most of the world's charity; atheism provides the impetus for neither.

21) If God created the world, where was he before creation?. . . How could God have made the world without any raw material?. . . If he is ever perfect and complete, how could the will to create have arisen in him?

If God is of a higher existence - that is, if he exists outside of our universe, outside of space and time - then do the physical laws of nature apply to him? If we limit our understanding to this universe then ANY solution is impossible...with our without God.

As far as God's purpose for creation, I could take a stab at it but it would only be a wild guess. If God exists, then does it really matter anyway?

p.s. I could address more of the original points, but it doesn't seem necessary. If you have any you'd like to see discussed in particular that I didn't hit on let me know.

[crawfish]

I guess I should comment on this one as well:


"God exists in people's minds. It seems like such a simple concept. When there have been thousands of gods and dozens of "holy" books, all different but all claiming the only inspired truth, it should becomes apparent that gods are but creations of the human mind. Yet superstition is very durable. Through fear and ignorance, belief in deities continues to flourish. It has reached the point where it takes courage to dissent from popular belief in the supernatural. In our country religious viewpoints have gone unchallenged publicly for decades, and we are reaping the harvest of generations indoctrinated from infancy to believe in error."

This assumes that God doesn't exist, and that there is not a single "truth" out there. Perhaps the plethora of gods that have existed throughout humanity indicates not the nonexistence of God but the existence of God and an innate desire to connect with him.

[GI Joe]

"God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

[CyNix]

And the punishment for not bowing to an egotistical God that favors praise for himself above all else in the universe is eternal punishment and suffering?... this is not justifiable by any father, even an omnipotent one.You have it backward. If a person spends a life apart from God; ignoring or and mocking him; what kind of crual selfish god would force that person to spend eternity with God?

That is what heaven is: eternity with God. Hell is just the opposite: a place that God does not even look upon.

If you were not interested in spending even a few moments out of your short insignificant life with him, why should he force you to spend forever with him?

[CyNix]

"God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."
:thumbsup:

[Achilles]

Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. ~ Benjamin Franklin

[GI Joe]

When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself.
Peter OToole


"Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, 'Where have I gone wrong?' Then a voice says to me, 'This is going to take more than one night.'."
Charlie Brown.

[GI Joe]

"The secret of a good sermon is to have a good beginning and a good ending, then having the two as close together as possible."
George Burns.

[Duo_Maxwell]

...people think that God has been *killed* by science and thought, when in fact he is strenthened by it. Again, the author is attacking interpretation rather than source.

How is God strengthed by science?

After all, science has continually proven the method in which we know God is wrong. Religion is the path to God, and Science has proven religion more then just a obstacle to progress. One must attack the interpretation, how would we know "God" is there was no religion?

[Malone1234]

"In all major socializing forces you will find an underlying movement to gain and maintain power through the use of words. From witch doctor to priest to bureaucrat it is all the same. A governed populace must be conditioned to accept power-words as actual things, to confuse the symbolized system with the tangible universe." - Frank Herbert

All religions are quite good at this.

[MrAmerica]

Everyone thinks that science and the bible cannot coexist. But there are more and more scientists who are begining to question evolution. By studying the Grand Canyon, many scientists are convinced that all of the layers of rock which were thought to have accumulated over millions of years, actually formed very quickly. Sediment settling due to a catastrophic flood (ring a bell?). This was discovered when during an earthquake, many underwater communications cables at the bottom of the ocean were snapped like twigs by tons and tons of sediment avalanching across the ocean floor. The result of the sediment formation was very similar to the layers in rock such as those at the Grand Canyon.

They have found fossilized sea shells on mountain tops. They have film and photographs of a very large boat matching the description of noah's ark on top of mount Ararat, right where it is supposed to be. There have been several documentaries on the subject, and one explorer was even able to obtain a piece of the wood which was dated as thousands of years old. Now they have found the remains of a civilization at the bottom of the dead sea, where Sodom and Gomorah were said to exist.

They made an interesting discovery about the Sphynx in Egypt. The Discovery Channel did a documentary when the Egyptian government finally allowed American scientists in to study it. It was discovered that the Sphynx is actually older than Egypt. The face on the Sphynx, which is of a Pharoh, was added thousands of years after the original structure was built. The original face was either destroyed or eroded. The stones that make up the base are as big as railroad box cars, but yet they are seamlessly fit together and stacked so perfectly that you cannot even get a piece of paper between the stones. No one can explain how they lifted them on top of each other. The most intriguing discovery was that the entire structure was weathered BY WATER in an area where no bodies of water have existed for an estimated 9000 years. The conclusion is that, it was not originally Egyptian, it endured a catechismic flood, and it was made by people of superior intelligence, (such as people who might have lived for hundreds of years, like those described in Genesis before the flood), either that or space aliens, pick your unbelievable explanation. :angel:

A fossile of a small crustacean, which was thought to have become extinct millions of years ago, was found trodden under the footprint of a man's sandal.

Evolution has never been proven. They have never found the "missing link." The reason it is called the "missing link" is because IT IS MISSING! :eek:

If we all evolved from apes, why are there still apes? :cool:

[CyNix]

MrAmerica:
Interesting post...
Out of curiosity... can you provide a source of that info? (About the Sphynx)

[MikeD4o7]

You have it backward. If a person spends a life apart from God; ignoring or and mocking him; what kind of crual selfish god would force that person to spend eternity with God?

That is what heaven is: eternity with God. Hell is just the opposite: a place that God does not even look upon.

If you were not interested in spending even a few moments out of your short insignificant life with him, why should he force you to spend forever with him?


That's not quite the way the Bible describes it. I don't have God in my life, but I've never experienced gnashing teeth or fire and brimstone kind of torture as the Bible describes hell as being. So I don't think that saying hell is simply a place without God is quite accurate, Biblically. It is definitely designed to be a place of torture, anguish, and pain... not just some place that God doesn't pay attention to.

[CyNix]

That's not quite the way the Bible describes it. I don't have God in my life, but I've never experienced gnashing teeth or fire and brimstone kind of torture as the Bible describes hell as being.God still has a presence on this earth according to the Bible. According to the Bible, you really cannot go anywhere on this earth to get away from him. He still thinks he owns the place! ;) So I don't think that saying hell is simply a place without God is quite accurate, Biblically. It is definitely designed to be a place of torture, anguish, and pain... not just some place that God doesn't pay attention to.The Bible does describe it as a place of torture anguish and pain. It would truly be the opposite of heaven. If a person does not want to be with God (In heaven) where else would they go? A person can't go nowhere, or disapear. And since God is omnipresent their is only one place to go where God does not visit.

[Malone1234]

If we all evolved from apes, why are there still apes?

Just to address this one particular point. Nowhere in the theory of evolution is it stated that once a new species evolves from an older species, that older species dies off. That just doesn't make any sense. What happensed was a small group of apes, for whatever reason, migrated to a new environment which was more challenging than the environment that most apes live in. In this new environment, only those apes with superior intelligence survived, and so on and so forth. The original apes in their original environments remained in those environments and had no reason to evolve. Now that is what evolution teaches. (not necessarily what I believe, but I thought I would clear that up)

[MikeD4o7]

The Bible does describe it as a place of torture anguish and pain. It would truly be the opposite of heaven. If a person does not want to be with God (In heaven) where else would they go? A person can't go nowhere, or disapear. And since God is omnipresent their is only one place to go where God does not visit.


any place without eternal torture?

[Duo_Maxwell]

Malone1234:
Um no. You need a major revision to this asseration. Replace apes with primitive primates. Apes didn't exist like we know them today.

[logic85]

MikeDo47 wrote:
The only explanation that I've ever seen given is that evil comes from humanity's free will and our ability to choose evil instead of good... and that is the root of all evil.

This is what I really hate most. The theists always say that the evil is from man, that anything bad in the world is because of man. On the other hand, anything good that happens in the world is because of God. It is hypocritical and extremely annoying, basically all of our achievements our taken away from us - they are all God's achievements instead.

Malone1234 wrote:
Quote:

If we all evolved from apes, why are there still apes?


Just to address this one particular point. Nowhere in the theory of evolution is it stated that once a new species evolves from an older species, that older species dies off. That just doesn't make any sense. What happensed was a small group of apes, for whatever reason, migrated to a new environment which was more challenging than the environment that most apes live in. In this new environment, only those apes with superior intelligence survived, and so on and so forth. The original apes in their original environments remained in those environments and had no reason to evolve. Now that is what evolution teaches. (not necessarily what I believe, but I thought I would clear that up)

Oh my god, that is the definition of simply being DUMB. If you don't know basic facts why bother debating on this forum?

Humans did not evolve from apes.

Humans did not evolve from apes.

Got it yet?

Humans and apes evolved from the SAME COMMON ANCESTOR.

This means that apes ARENT are great great grandparents, they are our COUSINS.

:eek: :eek:
Duo Maxwell well done, at least your not stupid.

[MikeD4o7]

This is what I really hate most. The theists always say that the evil is from man, that anything bad in the world is because of man. On the other hand, anything good that happens in the world is because of God. It is hypocritical and extremely annoying, basically all of our achievements our taken away from us - they are all God's achievements instead.


I agree... the whole point of it seems to be to indicate to us that we are like helpless children that need a father figure to keep humanity in line. In my opinion, it completely subverts human dignity and impedes humanity from truly taking on it's own challenges. In every area that humanity has failed, all of the blame does belong solely with humans... but every accomplishment made by humanity also belongs solely to humans... not God.

"Civilization has come about by going to school more than to church."
Lemuel K. Washburn

[logic85]

At last...a burst of common sense...how can anyone seriously take the idea of an invisible all-powerful mind seriously??

[MrAmerica]

MrAmerica:
Interesting post...
Out of curiosity... can you provide a source of that info? (About the Sphynx)

I can't seem to find any mention of it on the Discovery Channel website, but it was on in 1992, or 1993. Here is a site which at least verifies the fact that it was on. I'm still searcing for a DVD or VHS.

http://ebtx.com/theory/sphynx.htm

[MrAmerica]

What happensed was a small group of apes, for whatever reason, migrated to a new environment which was more challenging than the environment that most apes live in. In this new environment, only those apes with superior intelligence survived, and so on and so forth. The original apes in their original environments remained in those environments and had no reason to evolve. Now that is what evolution teaches. (not necessarily what I believe, but I thought I would clear that up)

Thanks for the info.

However, I would question why apes would migrate to an environment that was difficult to survive in, in the first place. Being that evolution supposedly takes millions of years, why would apes continue to live in a harsh and hostile environment throughout all the milleniums it would take to adapt? It would make more sense that they would migrate BACK to an environment that was more suitable to their species.

Just the "fact" that the apes were capable of surviving for millions of years in a difficult environment prior to evolving, tells me that they didn't need to evolve at all. But, it would be indisputable if they could only find that missing link! :confused: They can find dinosaur bones galore, which supposedly existed millions of years before man, but they can't find the remains of a single missing link. Strange. ;)

[::Major_Baker::]

=MrAmerica]They have found fossilized sea shells on mountain tops.

Mountains are formed when tectonic movement causes sections of the Earth's crust to collide and rise upward. The shell fossils on the top of mountains are easily explained by the fact that the material that these mountains are made of once existed as an ocean (or lake) floor.

They have film and photographs of a very large boat matching the description of noah's ark on top of mount Ararat, right where it is supposed to be.

Poppycock. Who's "they"?
Surely "they" would publish this information and make these pictures available on the web.....

That Egypt story doesn't even make sense. Humans have built amazing structures before it would seem like it was possible. All you need is lots of people, some engineering, and tools, and you can get some impressive stuff. Ever seen the Mayan ruins? Very impressive, and built by humans.

A fossile of a small crustacean, which was thought to have become extinct millions of years ago, was found trodden under the [B]footprint of a man's sandal.

They also caught the first known living Coelacanth on the east coast of South Africa in 1938.
They were orginally thought to be extinct since the fall of the dinosaurs....what's that 60 million give or take a few?


Evolution has never been proven.

And creation has? :rolleyes:

[crawfish]

How is God strengthed by science?

After all, science has continually proven the method in which we know God is wrong. Religion is the path to God, and Science has proven religion more then just a obstacle to progress. One must attack the interpretation, how would we know "God" is there was no religion?
God is strenthened by science in that scientific discovery has broadened our understanding of God's word while not invalidating it. If you put your faith in man, you WILL be let down...men can be petty, evil, self-serving and small-minded when they want to be. I put my faith in God's word...and if discovery proves that a belief cannot possibly be, then through study I've found you can look at God's word with the new knowledge and find that the problem was in the way we interpreted it, and not what it said.

Our understanding of God's word evolves with us. And when it comes down to it, science has not touched the major tenets of our faith.

[MrAmerica]

Poppycock. Who's "they"?
Surely "they" would publish this information and make these pictures available on the web.....
Our very own "Spock" (Leonard Nimoy) beamed himself down to host the documentary; "In search of Noah's Ark". It was all over TV. There is another popular 2 hour documentary that you can rent at your video store (I forget the name, but it would be a safe bet that "Noah's Ark" would be in the title). They contain all of the documentation and sources. There are others as well.

That Egypt story doesn't even make sense. Humans have built amazing structures before it would seem like it was possible.
Yes, I am not suggesting that it was not done by humans. My point in bringing that up is the fact that it was weathered by water in an area which as been dry as a bone for at least 9 or 10 thousand years, and not by rain either, but by submersion. The documentary suggested that there might have been lakes there 9000 years ago, but that would mean that the Sphynx was built before the formation of the lakes, which would probably make it more like 15,000 years old at least.

It is true that the Myans made some impressive stuff, so did the Egyptians, but NEVER, NEVER have they thought that such technology could have existed as far back as when the Sphynx was made. The Myans structures are not all that old in comparrison with civilations in the East.

They also caught the first known living Coelacanth on the east coast of South Africa in 1938.
They were orginally thought to be extinct since the fall of the dinosaurs....what's that 60 million give or take a few?
I think the Lochness monster is probably surviving dinosaur.
Did you know that creatures matching the discription of dinosaurs were described in the bible? (Leviathon and the Baheomoth). And they were described as being alive.

And creation has? :rolleyes:
No of course not, but creationism does not claim to be scientific fact like the theory of evolution does. :angel:

[logic85]

MrAmerica ignore that explanation that apes migrated to different areas it is a lie apes did not evolve into humans they both evolved from the same common ancestor.

[MrAmerica]

MrAmerica ignore that explanation that apes migrated to different areas it is a lie apes did not evolve into humans they both evolved from the same common ancestor.

OK, I'll bite. How did we evolve from a common ancestor?

Growing up in school, I distinctly remember being taught that we evolved from apes. That is what the "missing link" was supposed to prove once it was found. And what about all of those charts depicting the gradual change from hunched ape to an upright homoerectus? All of that was supposed to be "scientific fact." Or were we being lied to in school?

[Duo_Maxwell]

God is strenthened by science in that scientific discovery has broadened our understanding of God's word while not invalidating it.

True, but it also invalides much of how we know God. Religion is the path of understanding God and when religion has been proven wrong time after time, after time by science, I fail to see how one major aspects of God isn't weakened severely by science.


Our understanding of God's word evolves with us. And when it comes down to it, science has not touched the major tenets of our faith.

That's assuming you don't believe in organized religion.

[logic85]

MrAmerica, that is the theory bit of evolution. Logic and science confirms evolution happened, the puzzling bit is how. Darwin suggested one method, namely natural selection. The choice is yours.

That's the great thing about atheism. You can believe which theory you like, you are not given a book telling you what is right and wrong, you are free to choose what happened and are more open-minded.

[CyNix]

any place without eternal torture?
Outer space? Way... way... way... out there where the sun does not shine?

[Fasdf]

OK, I'll bite. How did we evolve from a common ancestor?

Growing up in school, I distinctly remember being taught that we evolved from apes. That is what the "missing link" was supposed to prove once it was found. And what about all of those charts depicting the gradual change from hunched ape to an upright homoerectus? All of that was supposed to be "scientific fact." Or were we being lied to in school?
Would you rather be taught that god created the world in 7 days and man on the sixth and have that called "scientific fact"? Darwin's theory of evolution is the best explanation at the time as to how humans appeared. If they needed to dumb it down for you and say 'apes', that would indeed be the school's fault, especially since 'apes' aren't even our closest relatives.

[TheGreyGhost]

You major on material matters.......

...............you overlook the spiritual

[logic85]

Fasdf out of curiosity what is our closest relatives if not apes then??

[MrAmerica]

Would you rather be taught that god created the world in 7 days and man on the sixth and have that called "scientific fact"? Darwin's theory of evolution is the best explanation at the time as to how humans appeared. If they needed to dumb it down for you and say 'apes', that would indeed be the school's fault, especially since 'apes' aren't even our closest relatives.

No, not at all. Creationism is FAITH. In no way do I expect anyone to be taught that a theory based on FAITH, is a fact. I especially do not want the state sponsored public schools to do that. All I want is for evolution to be recognized for what it is; A THEORY. I don't want my kids being told something is a fact, when it is not proven.

You say it can be proven, but I have illustrated in another post that the sediment layering found in the Grand Canyon, and assumed by "science" to have taken millions of years, has been observed to happen rapidly as a result of seismic shock causing underwater avalanches. This alone throws amonkey wrench into much of scientific assumption.

[Malone1234]

Thanks for clearing up my statement about the apes guys. I appologize for my ignorance, and I will read up on evolution in the future (rather than relying on what I learned in high school biology class) before arguing about it.