Absurdities in the Bible

[logic85]

I know I'm not supposed to "mock" religion..however I think that these points I will bring up surely question the validity of the "holy bible"..if this forum is to debate religion..then surely the believers in this forum will have no problem in countering all of these absurdities that are contained within the Bible:

- God creates light on the first day, but doesn’t create light-producing objects such as the sun and stars until the fourth.

- “He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars.

- Plants are made on the third day before the sun thus before they could photosynthesise.

- "And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." Really? Then why are only a tiny fraction of stars visible from earth? Under the best conditions, no more than five thousand stars are visible from earth with the unaided eye, yet there are hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy and a hundred billion or so galaxies. Yet this verse says that God put the stars in the firmament "to give light" to the earth.

- All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. But, of course, we now know that there were carnivorous animals millions of years before humans existed.

- After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while.

- There was a clever, talking snake.

- God punishes Eve, and all women after her, with the pains of childbirth and subjection to men.

- God likes Abel's dead animals better than Cain's fruits and vegetables. Why? Well, no reason is given, but it probably has something to do with the amount of pain, blood, and gore involved.

- God tells Noah to make one small window (18 inches square) in the 450 foot ark for ventilation.

- God opens the "windows of heaven." He does this every time it rains.

- God tries to kill Moses because his son isn’t circumcised.

- His mother Zipporah then quickly circumcises him with a stone.

- Og, the king of the giants, was a tall man, even by NBA standards. His bed measured 9 by 4 cubits (13.5 feet long and 6 feet wide).

- Moses writes the Torah, but surely that means he would have known he was about to smash the 2 tablets? And that also means he describes his own death and burial!

- In a few hundred years, the Israelite population goes from 70 to several million in a few hundred years.

- "The windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained." This happens whenever it stops raining.

- Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period.

- And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water.

- According to Genesis, all animals fear humans. Although it is true that many do, it is also true that some do not. Sharks and grizzly bears, for example, are generally much less afraid of us than we are of them.

- God worries that people could actually build a tower high enough to reach him in heaven.

- God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before -- by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don't eat dust, do they?

- “Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.” Here, God kills some animals and makes some skin coats for Adam and Eve.

- Lot and his daughters camp out in a cave for a while. The daughters get their "just and righteous" father drunk, and have sexual intercourse with him, and each conceives and bears a son (wouldn't you know it!). Just another wholesome family values Bible story.

- “And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.” Here, Avraham does not know God’s name. Yet earlier, “And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, in the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.” He calls the place after God’s name.

- When Lot’s wife turns around at a city being destroyed, she is turned into a pillar of salt (literally!!)

- Avraham, after God has stopped all the old people lives to be 175 years old. Modern world record perhaps? Oh, sorry wait Yishmael then lives to be 180!

- God hardens Pharoah’s heart thus making it impossible for him to repent or spare punishment.

[logic85]

- Cain is worried after killing Abel and says, "Every one who finds me shall slay me." This is a strange concern since there were only two other humans alive at the time -- his parents!

- "And Cain knew his wife." That's nice, but where the hell did she come from?

- It's OK with God if you slowly beat your slaves to death. After all, they are your money. (21:20-21)

- People lived in the 900’s in them days; one person was even 969 years old when he died!

- "There were giants in the earth in those days." Giants??!!

- Poor Pharaoh couldn't resist the "very fair" Sarai, and he takes her into “his harem.” (She must have been well preserved, since she was about seventy years old at the time).

- Sarai has a baby when she is 90 years old.

- Abraham circumcises himself and all of the males in his household. Since he supposedly had 318 slaves back in 14:14, poor old Abe must have been pretty busy with his knife. But it was worth it. Penises are supremely important to God. And he can't stand foreskins.

- Bilham, the only non-Jewish prophet in the Torah, is with a donkey, and then the donkey starts talking. Yep, you heard me right – a talking donkey (!)

-When the Bnei Yisrael want to cross the sea, the Red Sea suddenly splits up into two parts, leaving dry land in the centre for them to safely walk through. Then, when the Egyptians try to walk through the dry land, the water suddenly collapses on them.

:D :D :D :D :D

[crawfish]

The creation stories are "absurd" only if you take them as pure science. In fact, they were written for another purpose entirely...to explain to the Israelites that God created the world and everything in it. I don't think it's a coincidence that items in the story - "formess and void", for instance...resonate more today than they would have back then, because our understanding is greater...but the fact remains, the story was never written for scientific purposes.

Again, you attack the interpretation rather than the source. I have serious problem with literalism and creationism, but I still believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and says EXACTLY what God wanted it to say. I see no conflict.

p.s. Assuming there is an all-powerful God, wouldn't the miracles you listed above (pillar of salt) not be absurd?

[2ruballa]

- Cain is worried after killing Abel and says, "Every one who finds me shall slay me." This is a strange concern since there were only two other humans alive at the time -- his parents!

- "And Cain knew his wife." That's nice, but where the hell did she come from?

- It's OK with God if you slowly beat your slaves to death. After all, they are your money. (21:20-21)

- People lived in the 900’s in them days; one person was even 969 years old when he died!

- "There were giants in the earth in those days." Giants??!!

- Poor Pharaoh couldn't resist the "very fair" Sarai, and he takes her into “his harem.” (She must have been well preserved, since she was about seventy years old at the time).

- Sarai has a baby when she is 90 years old.

- Abraham circumcises himself and all of the males in his household. Since he supposedly had 318 slaves back in 14:14, poor old Abe must have been pretty busy with his knife. But it was worth it. Penises are supremely important to God. And he can't stand foreskins.

- Bilham, the only non-Jewish prophet in the Torah, is with a donkey, and then the donkey starts talking. Yep, you heard me right – a talking donkey (!)

-When the Bnei Yisrael want to cross the sea, the Red Sea suddenly splits up into two parts, leaving dry land in the centre for them to safely walk through. Then, when the Egyptians try to walk through the dry land, the water suddenly collapses on them.

:D :D :D :D :D

Do you agree with the Golden Rule? Do unto others as you would like others to do unto you.

[logic85]

The creation stories are "absurd" only if you take them as pure science.

I choose to believe things that have scientific evidence to back it up rather than a book written thousands of years ago with no scientific evidence to even prove who wrote it. And even without science, the idea that some sort of "thing" that has a mind with no body and no matter created what we call the Universe in 6 days, then rested on a seventh day (this all-powerful God was so exhausted he need to rest?) is just as absurd.

Again, you attack the interpretation rather than the source.

Okay, would you like the sources? Just give me an example and I will provide you with a source. For goodwill, I'll give you one now which I actually mentioned:

"And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water."

I interpret this to mean that Moses had no food or drink for 40 days (which is literally impossible for a human to do this). I don't really see how else you can interpret this.....

Assuming there is an all-powerful God, wouldn't the miracles you listed above (pillar of salt) not be absurd?

But you are assuming that there is the all-powerful God. And that is the underlying message. All of these events are absurd, and they reflect what is in the Bible. The bible is supposedly the word of God. Therefore, in fact all these events show that the very thing which is absurd is the idea of the all-powerful God.

p.s. Like to hear an answer to this paradox:

- Can God create somebody who knows more than him?

If he can, then he isn't all-knowing (as somebody knows more than him). If he can't, then he isn't all-powerful.

Just curious...

[Strel]

God is a comedian.

We are not the intended audience.

[heel31ok]

Where are the obsurd parts? I am printing this out so I can carry it with me .I do not have the time to respond right now. I will say that each of these un-examples are reasonable and understandable in context .

[dittohead not!]

On the other hand, the Bible says God created the fishes of the sea, then the fowls of the air, then the beasts of the field, and finally, Man. Didn't things follow the same sequence according to evolution, only with a few more details? Maybe God told the ancient people as much as they were able to understand about how the world was created, then filled Darwin in on further details? How's that for a religious theory?

[::Major_Baker::]

Very good breakdown....
This is why those who take the bible literally bewilder me.

You forgot the fact that it would absolutley physically impossible to fit two of each species of animal on a 450 foot yacht--you may have trouble with insect species alone...

Not to mention that there might not be half your species left by the time the desination is reached. Animals fight and eat eachother.

[The Big Bog]

On the other hand, the Bible says God created the fishes of the sea, then the fowls of the air, then the beasts of the field, and finally, Man. Didn't things follow the same sequence according to evolution, only with a few more details? Maybe God told the ancient people as much as they were able to understand about how the world was created, then filled Darwin in on further details? How's that for a religious theory?
Emphasis on the word theory. Point being, this theory of yours is something just made up. Like the Bible. Invented. Man-made. There is no scientific basis nor proof of any of this. It's your own personal made-up theory.

Given that, why do people devote their entire lives to reading fairy tales and throwing gobs of money at so-called "evangelists" who spout out these unproven fictions? Does the fact that millions of people so wilingly do this not disturb you in the least?

What if that same money that's being used to fund a minister or priest's lifestyle and pay the electric bill for the church and pay for Jan's wigs on the Trinity Broadcasting Network were used instead to provide adequate medical care for the elderly? Or fund scientific research to cure diseases? Would that be a better use of our resources than perpetuating fairy tales through the generations?

[Larani]

Emphasis on the word theory. Point being, this theory of yours is something just made up. Like the Bible. Invented. Man-made. There is no scientific basis nor proof of any of this. It's your own personal made-up theory.

Given that, why do people devote their entire lives to reading fairy tales and throwing gobs of money at so-called "evangelists" who spout out these unproven fictions? Does the fact that millions of people so wilingly do this not disturb you in the least?

What if that same money that's being used to fund a minister or priest's lifestyle and pay the electric bill for the church and pay for Jan's wigs on the Trinity Broadcasting Network were used instead to provide adequate medical care for the elderly? Or fund scientific research to cure diseases? Would that be a better use of our resources than perpetuating fairy tales through the generations?


The Big Bog much of what you say Jesus actually taught so in fact the bible is not completely worthless. The problem is today is the same as it was in Jesus day, that of extortion and exploitation. The Sadducee's and the Pharisees had the perfect racket going. They came up with he rules and thus the sins, then they would con the people into feeling rotten for breaking those rules and for those same people to gain forgiveness from God they then had to purchase Dove's from the Temples, Wash in the ceremonial waters etc etc all for a Price. What do you think the money changers were for?

Capitalism at its finest. Make a product, advertise it and sell it to the masses and thus life off their labors vs your own. The real crappy part about it was it was also down by convincing people to feel like crap about themselves targeting their very worth as human beings. Not unlike many clothing and various other cosmetic services do on commercials.

You want forgiveness teach people to be forgivening and give it to them when they need it and ask for it simple as that. You don't need elaborate and expensive rituals for that. And if you talk to God go into your closet and pray anything else is done strictly for vanities sake, and the Robber Barons and the pulpit.

[MrAmerica]

Instead of refuting all of your points, I would rather demonstrate a good reason why I do believe that the bible is inspired.

The book of Daniel described the rise of 4 world super powers in succesion. Babylon, Greece, Medo-Persia, and then the 4th most powerful power which was not named but is undoubtably Rome. Some people say that Daniel must have been written after the fact, and it is true that some of it was written in Aramaic in Daniel's later days during the Medo Persian empire. But that view does not explain how the book was able to predict that Rome would be divided into ten kingdoms (which later became the nations of europe). They were the Anglo-Saxons, Alemanni, Heruli, Vandals, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Suevi, Lombards, Burgundians and Franks. The book also goes on to describe a power, different from the others, that would arise out of the ten kingdoms and uproot 3 of the ten.

The Roman Church came to power and ruled the civilized world for over a thousand years. It was different from the others because it was a religio-political power. In its inception, it uprooted three of the 10 offshoots of the kingdom which made war against it, at which time it finally came to full power. The Vandals, Ostrogoths and Heruli were Arian powers who strongly opposed the rise of the Catholic Church. The book, along with the book of revelation, says this power would rule for 1260 days, which are interpreted as years in prophecy (Ezekiel 4:6, Numbers 14:34). The Roman church ruled over the civilized world from 538 AD until Napoleon's general Berthier took the Pope prisoner in 1798, a period of exactly 1260 years.

Coincidence? This is an abreviated explanation. For a more detailed account go to:
http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=668&x=30&y=26

There are other fulfillments of prophecy in the bible which give us reason to admit its inspiration. But this one is the most detailed. It is rejected by much of Christianity, because this power that ruled for 1260 years is described as the "Little Horn" power which is credited as being anti-Christ.

[Strel]

Emphasis on the word theory. Point being, this theory of yours is something just made up. Like the Bible. Invented. Man-made. There is no scientific basis nor proof of any of this. It's your own personal made-up theory.


Oh Lord, please give me the strength and patience to again clear up this all-too-common misconception about evolution for the umpteenth time.

Evolution is a fact. More specifically, that evolution happened and that the process of evolution is responsible for the variety of species we see today is a fact. No sane, objective, responsible scientist disputes this.

The theory part comes into play when scientists are discusssing precisely how evolution works. In scientific parlance, it is not a "guess" or "hypothesis" as the word might be interpreted in colloquial English. It is a series of explanations (some proven, some not) about how the process works. That it is called the theory of evolution no more casts doubt on the fact of evolution than the theory of gravity creates apprehension that we may suddenly fly off the Earth along with all of our cats and laptops and chickens and SUV's.

CLASS DISMISSED


Frankly, I'm not sure if the Big Bog was saying that "evolution is only a theory". I just like baiting Creationists - if there are any around. :devil:

[Larani]

Oh Lord, please give me the strength and patience to again clear up this all-too-common misconception about evolution for the umpteenth time.

Evolution is a fact. More specifically, that evolution happened and that the process of evolution is responsible for the variety of species we see today is a fact. No sane, objective, responsible scientist disputes this.

The theory part comes into play when scientists are discusssing precisely how evolution works. In scientific parlance, it is not a "guess" or "hypothesis" as the word might be interpreted in colloquial English. It is a series of explanations (some proven, some not) about how the process works. That it is called the theory of evolution no more casts doubt on the fact of evolution than the theory of gravity creates apprehension that we may suddenly fly off the Earth along with all of our cats and laptops and chickens and SUV's.

CLASS DISMISSED

Agree Strel but do you not agree that all things evolve not just species. Would you agree that even thoughts evolve or devolve as is the case I think with many today? :)

[Strel]

Agree Strel but do you not agree that all things evolve not just species. Would you agree that even thoughts evolve or devolve as is the case I think with many today? :)

Indeed, I feel my work ethic devolving around me even as I write this. Then again, this is cyclical and usually happens around 2-3pm every day. :D

And I think my patience for dealing with the nutjobs, crazy nationalists and hypocrites on other message boards is entirely extinct. :cool:

[crawfish]

I choose to believe things that have scientific evidence to back it up rather than a book written thousands of years ago with no scientific evidence to even prove who wrote it. And even without science, the idea that some sort of "thing" that has a mind with no body and no matter created what we call the Universe in 6 days, then rested on a seventh day (this all-powerful God was so exhausted he need to rest?) is just as absurd.

I choose to believe both. Also, according to theoretical science a higher being that existed outside of our universe IS possible, not absurd. It might be "theoretical" to imagine things that lie outside of our perception, but it's certainly not illogical. There are most certainly elements to existence that we simply do not have the capability of detecting with out current technology and understanding.

Okay, would you like the sources? Just give me an example and I will provide you with a source. For goodwill, I'll give you one now which I actually mentioned:

"And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water."

I interpret this to mean that Moses had no food or drink for 40 days (which is literally impossible for a human to do this). I don't really see how else you can interpret this.....

I mean the bible as the source. What you do is take the literal meaning, much like the fundamentalists - not necessarily the poetic or symbolic meaning. For example, symbolically "God rested" could have been placed to give the people something to celebrate...the Sabbath, as a day to remember the Lord and stay focused on him. And if you take God as literally capable of miracles, then Moses' fast becomes very possible. I'll explain this further below.

But you are assuming that there is the all-powerful God. And that is the underlying message. All of these events are absurd, and they reflect what is in the Bible. The bible is supposedly the word of God. Therefore, in fact all these events show that the very thing which is absurd is the idea of the all-powerful God.

What I mean by this is our underlying basis is different, so attacking miracles for being impossible is an invalid argument to make with a believer, in as much as using miracles to prove God to a nonbelieve is also invalid. If by the post above you want to challenge our belief, then you should challenge the basis; challenging derivations without first discrediting the basis won't resonate.

p.s. Like to hear an answer to this paradox:

- Can God create somebody who knows more than him?

If he can, then he isn't all-knowing (as somebody knows more than him). If he can't, then he isn't all-powerful.

Just curious...

That would depend on the definition. Assume God is a higher being; he can alter the very fabric of our existence at will. In our universe, he IS all powerful, and can do anything...but perhaps in his own existence there would be limitations. It is a silly argument, and to be honest, quite irrelevant to the existence of God.

[Strel]

It is just a rewording of the old conundrum: "Can God create a rock so heavy that he could not lift it?"

People have spent their lives pondering this question and others like it. I think they would have been better off doing something else.

Also, there is no point in arguing with someone that believes in the literal truth of the Bible. You cannot have a rational debate with an irrational person.

[The Big Bog]

The Big Bog much of what you say Jesus actually taught so in fact the bible is not completely worthless. The problem is today is the same as it was in Jesus day, that of extortion and exploitation. The Sadducee's and the Pharisees had the perfect racket going. They came up with he rules and thus the sins, then they would con the people into feeling rotten for breaking those rules and for those same people to gain forgiveness from God they then had to purchase Dove's from the Temples, Wash in the ceremonial waters etc etc all for a Price. What do you think the money changers were for?

Capitalism at its finest. Make a product, advertise it and sell it to the masses and thus life off their labors vs your own. The real crappy part about it was it was also down by convincing people to feel like crap about themselves targeting their very worth as human beings. Not unlike many clothing and various other cosmetic services do on commercials.

You want forgiveness teach people to be forgivening and give it to them when they need it and ask for it simple as that. You don't need elaborate and expensive rituals for that. And if you talk to God go into your closet and pray anything else is done strictly for vanities sake, and the Robber Barons and the pulpit.
Don't get me wrong -- I think some of the Bible is worth studying ... as interesting historical writing. It wouldn't be so far-fetched to say that Jesus really did exist and He seemed to be quite a brave and heroic rebel, assuming those that wrote about him refrained from over-embellishment in that respect. However, was He the son of God? Was it a virgin birth? Did He turn water into wine? Could He really walk on water? Did He bring some guy named Lazarus back from the dead? Did He Himself rise from the dead? Has any of this been proven? Is there really a Lollipop Dragon? Prove any of this and I will promptly leave work and get myself saved and baptized without hesitation.

I suppose I might be able to partake of a more live-and-let-live approach to Christiantiy and other organized religions if it weren't for the fact that so many people out there take the Bible literally and allow themselves to be duped by all these charismatic religious leaders. Then, they try to impose those views on others. I'm not talking a few dozen extremists here and there either; you know as well as I that the religious right numbers in the millions and they are politically influential.

I grew up in a town where evangelicals have tried every way in the world to inject their views into the daily lives of their fellow citizens -- everything from bucking the law and putting copies of the 10 Commandments in every classroom to impeding anti-bullying laws simply because they would have also protected gay students. And if you aren't completely swallowed up by everything they're doing, you're viewed as an aberration.

For these reasons I reserve the right to ask for a little scientific proof on matters of the Bible from time to time.

[Larani]

Don't get me wrong -- I think some of the Bible is worth studying ... as interesting historical writing. It wouldn't be so far-fetched to say that Jesus really did exist and He seemed to be quite a brave and heroic rebel, assuming those that wrote about him refrained from over-embellishment in that respect. However, was He the son of God? Was it a virgin birth? Did He turn water into wine? Could He really walk on water? Did He bring some guy named Lazarus back from the dead? Did He Himself rise from the dead? Has any of this been proven? Is there really a Lollipop Dragon? Prove any of this and I will promptly leave work and get myself saved and baptized without hesitation.

I suppose I might be able to partake of a more live-and-let-live approach to Christianity and other organized religions if it weren't for the fact that so many people out there take the Bible literally and allow themselves to be duped by all these charismatic religious leaders. Then, they try to impose those views on others. I'm not talking a few dozen extremists here and there either; you know as well as I that the religious right numbers in the millions and they are politically influential.

I grew up in a town where evangelicals have tried every way in the world to inject their views into the daily lives of their fellow citizens -- everything from bucking the law and putting copies of the 10 Commandments in every classroom to impeding anti-bullying laws simply because they would have also protected gay students. And if you aren't completely swallowed up by everything they're doing, you're viewed as an aberration.

For these reasons I reserve the right to ask for a little scientific proof on matters of the Bible from time to time.

I understand where your coming from BBG, but it does you nor them any good in attacking them, best to just read and understand what Jesus meant and the help them understand by their own actions and deeds which are being done in the name of their beliefs are actually hypocritical to the very teachings of the one they claim they follow.

I guess what I am saying is makes sure you have removed any stones from your own eyes before trying to help them remove theirs. Remember we cannot control people, (radio controlled cars and airplanes sure but not people) we can teach them and thus they then go on and control themselves, we can however deceive them that we can do we can get them to follow irrational and even illogical premises for our own gain, the Pharisees and Sadducee's did this much that why Jesus constantly challenges them whenever possible. Case in point when he challenged them about holding the Sabbath so sacred as to abstain from helping a brother or a sister in need. He taught he would not safe their own animal if it were caught in a pit.

I guess what I am saying is try to help them get away from Worshiping the messenger and help them focus on what he taught its all anyone can do.

[Strel]

However, was He the son of God? Was it a virgin birth? Did He turn water into wine? Could He really walk on water? Did He bring some guy named Lazarus back from the dead? Did He Himself rise from the dead? Has any of this been proven? Is there really a Lollipop Dragon? Prove any of this and I will promptly leave work and get myself saved and baptized without hesitation.


I see now that the Bog's avatar is there for sarcastic purposes. I have a dartboard with the same picture taped to it somewhere in my garage/ :D

Unasked for, here is my take on the "miracles" of Christ: whether they really happened or not is not the important part of the story. Each of these "miracles" was "performed" in the context of proving a point about ethics, or selfishness, or trust...or simple kindness. In some cases the lesson has been completely lost in the hubub over the miracle itself. For example, I can't recall what lesson was being taught in the water-to-wine story, except that Jesus is a good guy to have at parties...perhaps Jesus showed up with a bunch of wine and everybody thought he was a great guy - and the story was embellished from there.

I think some of the miraculous stories were added to the original account later, in order to add some "supernatural credibility" to the underlying philosophy. After all, this was a time when the only temporal authority (kings, emperors) were assumed to rule by Divine Right and were more or less sanctioned by God to boss everybody else around, right? Who is going to believe, much less read, philosophy from someone not connected with the Divine? So, to increase it's appeal, the writers of the New Testament embellish the philosophy with some supernatural events and relationships, to make it more palatable to the superstitious masses.

I think Jesus was standing on a sandbar, not walking on water - and he played a practical joke on the suckers in the boat to prove a point. I think the crowd of people had plenty of loaves and fishes on them, and Jesus simply shamed them into sharing. I think the Resurrection bit is made up, because with that kind of story you just have to have a happy ending, or no one is going to read it twice.

Nobody would mistake me for a practicing Christian. If I am found in a church it is because I am hiding from vampires. (Just kidding). But I pity the so-called "Christians" who get caught up in the mystical aspects of the Bible and in doing seem to miss the underlying message entirely.

[The Big Bog]

I understand where your coming from BBG, but it does you nor them any good in attacking them, best to just read and understand what Jesus meant and the help them understand by their own actions and deeds which are being done in the name of their beliefs are actually hypocritical to the very teachings of the one they claim they follow.

I guess what I am saying is makes sure you have removed any stones from your own eyes before trying to help them remove theirs. Remember we cannot control people, (radio controlled cars and airplanes sure but not people) we can teach them and thus they then go on and control themselves, we can however deceive them that we can do we can get them to follow irrational and even illogical premises for our own gain, the Pharisees and Sadducee's did this much that why Jesus constantly challenges them whenever possible. Case in point when he challenged them about holding the Sabbath so sacred as to abstain from helping a brother or a sister in need. He taught he would not safe their own animal if it were caught in a pit.

I guess what I am saying is try to help them get away from Worshiping the messenger and help them focus on what he taught its all anyone can do.
I really don't think we're that far apart in our views so I won't run this topic into the ground. My only remaining comment, however, is I that it appears that I perceive of organized religion as more of a threat to both independent thought and to civil rights than you. People are all to willing to let others do their thinking for them. If this weren't the case, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson would be vacuum cleaner salesmen.

If millions of followers are going to elect politicians that pass laws dictating what I can or cannot do with my life and they are electing them based on their fantastical spiritual beliefs and/or at the urging of duplicitious religious leaders, I feel that I have a right to temper said fantastical beliefs by challenging them. More often than not, this comes across as "taunting" someone for their beliefs or "religious persecution." But isn't it healthy to have your beliefs challenged from time to time? Does that not foster a more intelligent society?

[MrAmerica]

...deeds which are being done in the name of their beliefs are actually hypocritical to the very teachings of the one they claim they follow.

makes sure you have removed any stones from your own eyes before trying to help them remove theirs. Remember we cannot control people, (radio controlled cars and airplanes sure but not people) we can teach them and thus they then go on and control themselves, we can however deceive them that we can do we can get them to follow irrational and even illogical premises for our own gain, the Pharisees and Sadducee's did this much that why Jesus constantly challenges them whenever possible. Case in point when he challenged them about holding the Sabbath so sacred as to abstain from helping a brother or a sister in need. He taught he would not safe their own animal if it were caught in a pit.

While I disagree with you about the Nature of Christ and biblical authority Larani, I do agree with you on this. Many well meaning Christians feel it is their duty to impose their morality on others, but it can't be done.

There is a paradox involved with Christianity; We are to be inclusive and accepting of everyone, while at the same time adhereing to a higher authority ourselves, which can sometimes alienate ourselves from others. It can sometimes be hard for people to reconcile the two. We have to let God be God, and not try to "help" Him by enforcing the "morality" on others which is meant for ourselves.

[MikeD4o7]

The absurdities aren't limited to scientific errors. There are major points in the Bible that defy common sense.

1. The existence of hell. God loves us very very much, but he chose to create a torture chamber in case any of us didn't love him back.

2. Angels vs Humans. We know angels have free will because Lucifer was able to defy God... so what's so special about humans? and why couldn't we just start off in heaven like they did instead of being put here?

3. If we die and go to heaven, do we lose free will? Because if we don't lose free will, then that means we can sin in heaven... which would make heaven not a perfect place. If we can't sin in heaven, then we merely become happy slaves when we die... yay.

4. Jesus came to show the world about their sins, yet his biggest audience for a miracle was 5000... that's pretty weak when you're supposed to be here for all of mankind. It's almost as if God didn't even know about people living in the Americas. odd, isn't it?

5. The idea that the main thing a perfect God wants is for people to tell him he's perfect. Why won't people question the motives or even the existence of a God that, as he shows in his book, wants praise above all else. Think about this.
- kill some kids, rape some grandmothers... but let God know that he's the best and you'll be ok in the afterlife.
- cure cancer, feed the world... doesn't matter if you don't acknowledge how cool God is... you'll still burn.

6. God would have a "chosen people" in the first place. Sure, he later came back in the NT and decided to include everyone, but why did it take God thousands of years to love everyone equally? How could an all-loving, all-caring God EVER choose favorites like he clearly did in the OT?

7. The idea that human sacrifice of his son was the only way to show humans how to be good. No amount of explaining away could ever convince me that there was no better way... especially considering only a few thousand people even saw any of Jesus' miracles.

8. The supposed lesson we're to take away from the Adam and Eve story. I know most people don't take the story literally, but how can anybody even acknowledge any value in it metaphorically? The entire story is a condemnation of education and seeking knowledge. It's too absurd of a "lesson" to even offer a response to.

9. The explicitly stated ineriority of women. Again, it doesn't matter if you think the NT reconciled it or not... how could God believe, or let people believe, for thousands of years that women were inferior to men. This is not a sign of a higher being's wisdom, but of the barbaric ethics during the time the Bible was written.

There's plenty more, but those are some that immediately come to the top of my head.

[Larani]

I really don't think we're that far apart in our views so I won't run this topic into the ground. My only remaining comment, however, is I that it appears that I perceive of organized religion as more of a threat to both independent thought and to civil rights than you. People are all to willing to let others do their thinking for them. If this weren't the case, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson would be vacuum cleaner salesmen.

Yes absolutely Jesus never, ever condoned organized Religion as far as I can see his disciples did later but not him. In fact it was pretty clear in his teachings he was against it because it wasn't enlightening people it was dumbing them down and using them for the profits and gains of the priests.

As far as Organized religion goes read my sig. I am not against spirituality that to me is about evolving that which is withing us. So you are right I think neither of us are far apart on that topic.


But isn't it healthy to have your beliefs challenged from time to time? Does that not foster a more intelligent society?

You cannot evolve without challenge it is the only way to learn. Without challenge you remain stuck doing the same thing over and over again. The problem is in how one challenges do they do it with a helping hand or with fire and brimstone. :) One makes a friend and alley the other makes a nemesis and a enemy.

[Larani]

While I disagree with you about the Nature of Christ and biblical authority Larani, I do agree with you on this. Many well meaning Christians feel it is their duty to impose their morality on others, but it can't be done.

There is nothing wrong with healthy disagreement. And as I said to another member I claim no authority. I am neither greater then or lesser then any of my brothers or sisters. For though I feel I have something to teach I always have something to learn. :)


There is a paradox involved with Christianity; We are to be inclusive and accepting of everyone, while at the same time adhereing to a higher authority ourselves, which can sometimes alienate ourselves from others. It can sometimes be hard for people to reconcile the two. We have to let God be God, and not try to "help" Him by enforcing the "morality" on others which is meant for ourselves.

Just as their are natural laws such as Gravity so to are their natural laws with regard to morality. The problem people have is that they try and force and whenever force is applied so to a equal amount of force will be expended against that force. People want to be free it resides in all of us, but authority takes that very freedom away unfortunately, but for every amount of forced use by authority to gain order a equal amount if of force will be released initiating chaos, because Liberty arbors Authority.

What we need to be taught is how we all need to use our liberty with wisdom for if we did that no authority would be needed, and the equation would balance out and harmony would be all that was left after the struggle between order and chaos.

[2ruballa]

Do you agree with the Golden Rule? Do unto others as you would like others to do unto you.

Because if you do, you're A-OK in my book.

[Gale_Force15]

I do, as long as the rule doesn't apply to people I'm fighting in a war.

[Larani]

I do, as long as the rule doesn't apply to people I'm fighting in a war.

Your joking right, You are in war wanting to kill your enemy but you don't want your enemy to try and kill you?

Well thats a oxymoron if I ever heard one. :D

[Gale_Force15]

Your joking right, You are in war wanting to kill your enemy but you don't want your enemy to try and kill you?

Well thats a oxymoron if I ever heard one. :D

As opposed to me wanting them to kill me?

[2ruballa]

I do, as long as the rule doesn't apply to people I'm fighting in a war.

Thats just it, it does apply. Always. So that war might be prevented.

[Michele]

I know I'm not supposed to "mock" religion..however I think that these points I will bring up surely question the validity of the "holy bible"..if this forum is to debate religion..then surely the believers in this forum will have no problem in countering all of these absurdities that are contained within the Bible:

- God creates light on the first day, but doesn’t create light-producing objects such as the sun and stars until the fourth.

I literally only got this far in your post but it seems it is off even before it is said he created light...

For the first time I attempted to read through genesis the other night I was stumped as the very first verse tells us God hovered over the waters! which right there was already life even before God supposedly created it.....

for there is the theory of evolution which has live coming from the water before we even get to neanderthals. So right from the beginning of genesis already there is some dispute between the belief of the creationist vs that of the evolutionists. For he did not create the waters they were already there.

[2ruballa]

For he did not create the waters they were already there.

Genesis

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [1] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

***

The first verse clearly implies that God did create water, because water is contained within the heavens. Astronomy has already proven the existence of ABUNDANT water in outer space through spectroscopic studies.

[MrAmerica]

Slow down Mike! Give us a little at a time.

1. The existence of hell. God loves us very very much, but he chose to create a torture chamber in case any of us didn't love him back.
Hell is inevitable, but it was created for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41). It is the lake of fire that is going to consume the earth at the end of time, in the same way that the earth was destroyed by the flood (Rev. 20:9, 10; Luke 17:26). We will be included in the lake of fire if we cling to the devil and his deceptions, like a ball and chain around our leg. God does not wish for any of us to be in it. That is why He made a way out for us.

3. If we die and go to heaven, do we lose free will? Because if we don't lose free will, then that means we can sin in heaven... which would make heaven not a perfect place. If we can't sin in heaven, then we merely become happy slaves when we die... yay.
"And there shall be no more curse..." Rev. 22:3. No one will want to sin after it is exposed for what it is. That is why God did not just stamp out Lucifer immediately, because He would have been seen to be a dictator. God gave us free will so that the nature of sin could be revealed to all, and so that His character and Law would be vindicated.

4. Jesus came to show the world about their sins, yet his biggest audience for a miracle was 5000... that's pretty weak when you're supposed to be here for all of mankind.
Yes, and now look at the impact that His 3-1/2 years on this earth have had. He is the most influential figure in history. Millions of lives have been influenced.

5. The idea that the main thing a perfect God wants is for people to tell him he's perfect. Why won't people question the motives or even the existence of a God that, as he shows in his book, wants praise above all else. Think about this.
- kill some kids, rape some grandmothers... but let God know that he's the best and you'll be ok in the afterlife.
- cure cancer, feed the world... doesn't matter if you don't acknowledge how cool God is... you'll still burn.
Just because someone does some good things does not make them better than everyone else. By your own supposition, you are assuming that people can earn the right to go to heaven. God gave each of us a ticket to heaven, no matter what we have done, good or bad, no one is excluded. But only those who redeem their ticket and get on the plane so to speak are going to get to the destination.

6. God would have a "chosen people" in the first place. Sure, he later came back in the NT and decided to include everyone, but why did it take God thousands of years to love everyone equally? How could an all-loving, all-caring God EVER choose favorites like he clearly did in the OT?
God did not choose the Jews to be His "favorites". They were chosen to tell the rest of the world about the true God. "What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God." Romans 3:1, 2.
When the Jews failed to fulfill this calling, God worked through the church.

7. The idea that human sacrifice of his son was the only way to show humans how to be good. No amount of explaining away could ever convince me that there was no better way... especially considering only a few thousand people even saw any of Jesus' miracles.
Jesus did not die in order to teach us to be good. He died so that you and I could have eternal life, because without His sacrifice, we would have had to pay the penalty (eternal death) for sin ourselves. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23.

9. The explicitly stated ineriority of women. Again, it doesn't matter if you think the NT reconciled it or not... how could God believe, or let people believe, for thousands of years that women were inferior to men. This is not a sign of a higher being's wisdom, but of the barbaric ethics during the time the Bible was written.
There is no "ineriority" of women (whatever that means). God merely was describing what the results of their transgression would be. In the same way that if I tell my daughter that if she touches the stove, she will develop a nice painful blister on her finger. I didn't put the blister there. I merely warned her about it, and told her what would happen if she disobeyed me. Cruel, isn't it?

I'm not trying to convert you or anyone else, just trying to clear up some of your misconceptions. Keep 'em comin. I'll try to answer as many as I can. :angel:

[Michele]

Genesis

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [1] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

***

The first verse clearly implies that God did create water, because water is contained within the heavens. Astronomy has already proven the existence of ABUNDANT water in outer space through spectroscopic studies.

Oh okay yes that is how the passage reads. And I understand your point. Now have astronomers also proven that god created the heaven's? For astronmers are calling it outer space, not heavens. In genesis the passage does not read God created outer space and the earth... so in genesis isn't the heavens something different from what astronomers refer to as outer space?

Why did it not state god created the heavens, outer space, water and earth? The wording is not specific and therefore it is implied he created the water... however that is not as clear as the statements which outwardly and specifically state what God created like Light. and Logic85 does have a point he created light but if he had created already the heaven's and the earth prior to the first day... in the heaven's, if that is reference to outerspace, there would have already been the sun.

You see that first passage is an introduction to the creation on the first day god began his creation... he stood above the hovering waters. which was there before he made his first creation WHICH WAS LIGHT. IF HE HAD BEFORE THE FIRST DAY ALREADY CREATED THE HEAVEN'S OR OUTSPACE HE WOULD NOT HAVE TO HAVE CALLED FOR LIGHT.

particularly since the old testament was written centuries after the sumarian legends which do refer to a solar system as per their gods of the sky or teachers of the sky the annunaki. By this time genesis could have stated God created the solar system. Although I need to check the exact wording of the sumerian legends that refer to a solar system with planets and everything.

[logic85]

MrAmerica wrote:
I would rather demonstrate a good reason why I do believe that the bible is inspired....There are other fulfillments of prophecy in the bible which give us reason to admit its inspiration.

I don't know much about this "fulfilled" prophecy, but if you think the Bible is inspired because of the prophecies it has fulfilled you are only looking at half the picture. Here are some of the other prophecies you have conveniently ignored (which haven't been fulfilled):

Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.

Here God tells Isaac that his descendents (Hebrews) will be as numerous as the stars. Considering the number of stars there are in the universe, that would have to be on the order of 1020 Jewish people.

Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

Damascus is still inhabited today with over a million people, and hardly a ruinous heap.

Isaiah 19:4-5 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts. And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.

The river mentioned here is the Nile. The Nile is still one of Egypt's greatest natural resource.

Isaiah 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.

The Canaanite language has never been spoken in Egypt, and is now an extinct.

Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

There are uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today.

Ezekiel 29:10-11 Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years.

Never in its long history has Egypt ever been uninhabited for forty years.

Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

Nowhere in the Old Testament is such a prophecy found, so how could such a one be fulfilled?

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Jesus tells the high priest that he would see his second coming. The high priest is long dead, and Jesus hasn't returned yet.


Crawfish wrote:
I mean the bible as the source. What you do is take the literal meaning, much like the fundamentalists - not necessarily the poetic or symbolic meaning. For example, symbolically "God rested" could have been placed to give the people something to celebrate...the Sabbath, as a day to remember the Lord and stay focused on him.

It's just an excuse. The bible used to be taken literally, now science disproves more and more, so the new excuses are "you shouldn't take it literally" e.g. "days don't really mean days" etc.


Strelnikov wrote:
Also, there is no point in arguing with someone that believes in the literal truth of the Bible.

No, I don't believe a word the bible says.

[MikeD4o7]

Hell is inevitable, but it was created for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41). It is the lake of fire that is going to consume the earth at the end of time, in the same way that the earth was destroyed by the flood (Rev. 20:9, 10; Luke 17:26). We will be included in the lake of fire if we cling to the devil and his deceptions, like a ball and chain around our leg. God does not wish for any of us to be in it. That is why He made a way out for us.


Would it not be a better God that would not let people suffer eternally even if they didn't believe in him? Wouldn't a more just God at least allow the good people who don't believe in him to just not exist anymore like they believe will happen to them anyways? I think so.

"And there shall be no more curse..." Rev. 22:3. No one will want to sin after it is exposed for what it is. That is why God did not just stamp out Lucifer immediately, because He would have been seen to be a dictator. God gave us free will so that the nature of sin could be revealed to all, and so that His character and Law would be vindicated.


If this is the case, the what's the point of this life anyways? If we still have free will and every gift that makes humans so great in heaven, why the need for this trial run on a flawed earth? Either we lose the ability to sin when we enter heaven, or heaven isn't eternal, or heaven isn't as good as it's cracked up to be.

"I cannot see why we should expect an infinite God to do better in another world than he does in this."
-- Robert Green Ingersoll

Yes, and now look at the impact that His 3-1/2 years on this earth have had. He is the most influential figure in history. Millions of lives have been influenced.


Yet it's still not the majority of the world's population. God let a few thousand human beings actually witness something, while the rest of us are left to believe hearsay. God could easily let each and every single person that ever lived know, without a doubt, that Jesus was his son and he came here for our salvation... and God could still leave the choice of whether or not to follow Jesus up to us... but God doesn't, and you have to ask why. I'd do it if I was God.

God did not choose the Jews to be His "favorites". They were chosen to tell the rest of the world about the true God. "What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God." Romans 3:1, 2.
When the Jews failed to fulfill this calling, God worked through the church.


Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

All of the times that God helped Israel defeat other nations... all of the plagues and smitings carried out against the enemies of Israel in the Old Testament, and you don't think that we were supposed to believe that God had a "chosen people"? The Old Testament I think makes it pretty clear.

Of course, what a completely unexpected surprise that the authors of a sacred text would write THEIR people as God's chosen.

Jesus did not die in order to teach us to be good. He died so that you and I could have eternal life, because without His sacrifice, we would have had to pay the penalty (eternal death) for sin ourselves. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23.


Same still applies. We're supposed to believe that only way an omnipotent, omniscient God could save us from eternal death was a human sacrifice? Seems like God should have been able to find a better solution. Usually when your answer to a problem is human sacrifice, you should go back and spend a bit more time thinking about the problem.

There is no "ineriority" of women (whatever that means). God merely was describing what the results of their transgression would be. In the same way that if I tell my daughter that if she touches the stove, she will develop a nice painful blister on her finger. I didn't put the blister there. I merely warned her about it, and told her what would happen if she disobeyed me. Cruel, isn't it?


Sorry, typo. It should be "inferiority". I'm not just talking about childbirth either.

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." Ephesians 5:22-24

"For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner" 1 Tim 2:12-14

"...and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee" Genesis 3:16

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man..." 1 Cor 11:3

"Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man" 1 Cor 11:9

Those are all just verses which explicitly tell us that women are inferior or to be subject to men... but there are countless more examples of women being taken as a prize for battles and so on. There's no denying that the OT treats women as distinctly inferior.

[2ruballa]

Oh okay yes that is how the passage reads. And I understand your point. Now have astronomers also proven that god created the heaven's? For astronmers are calling it outer space, not heavens. In genesis the passage does not read God created outer space and the earth... so in genesis isn't the heavens something different from what astronomers refer to as outer space?

Nobody can prove God. That is where faith comes in.

Astronomers have always called space "the heavens" throughout history. Galileo (the astronomer who told the Roman Catholic Church that the earth was round even though it was in their own scriptures) is a good example.

Why did it not state god created the heavens, outer space, water and earth? The wording is not specific and therefore it is implied he created the water... however that is not as clear as the statements which outwardly and specifically state what God created like Light. and Logic85 does have a point he created light but if he had created already the heaven's and the earth prior to the first day... in the heaven's, if that is reference to outerspace, there would have already been the sun.

The Bible does not say that God created the earth prior to the first day or the stars or sun for that matter. VERSE 1 is a statement. VERSES 2 AND ONWARD EXPLAIN HOW THAT STATEMENT CAME TO BE.
How do you know God himself did not provide the light? Let there be a sun! nope, it doesn't say that. All we know is that it says light was present at God's command. Stars are not the only things that give light. We know this. So why force a sun into the picture? The Bible says that the sun, moon, and the stars were not created until later in the passage.

You see that first passage is an introduction to the creation on the first day god began his creation... he stood above the hovering waters. which was there before he made his first creation WHICH WAS LIGHT. IF HE HAD BEFORE THE FIRST DAY ALREADY CREATED THE HEAVEN'S OR OUTSPACE HE WOULD NOT HAVE TO HAVE CALLED FOR LIGHT.

By the time you get to verse 2 you may think that the Bible is saying that that the heavens and the earth are already fully created. That is not the case. If you read further on in Genesis, it goes into detail to explain how the first statement was fullfilled.

If you believe verse 1, then you must believe that God created the waters which is contained within the heavens. The Bible speaks of earth and 3 heavens:
1. Earth's atmosphere
2. the heavens where the stars reside
3. the highest heaven, the throne of God

[2ruballa]

Same still applies. We're supposed to believe that only way an omnipotent, omniscient God could save us from eternal death was a human sacrifice? Seems like God should have been able to find a better solution. Usually when your answer to a problem is human sacrifice, you should go back and spend a bit more time thinking about the problem.

Well, people were out to kill Jesus. So sacrifice of life was inevitable. He was either going to kill them in defense, or instead show a good example by praying for his enemies.

[MrAmerica]

Would it not be a better God that would not let people suffer eternally even if they didn't believe in him? Wouldn't a more just God at least allow the good people who don't believe in him to just not exist anymore like they believe will happen to them anyways? I think so.
Believe it or not Mike, I agree with you. The bible says that those in hell will be destroyed. The confusion comes when people try to separate the "soul" from the body. The bible defines a "soul" as the life. It even describes animals as having the same soul (life force) as humans.
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt. 10:28.
"These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day..." 2 Thes. 1:9 (notice that the destruction does not begin until Jesus returns).
"The soul who sins shall die." Ezekiel 18:4 (A soul can die). But a soul can live forever if it is connected with God. That is what is at stake; Life forever in a world free from pain and suffering, misery and death; or eternal death, non-existance. Even the devil will die. Speaking to Satan, God said; "You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever." Ezekiel 28:19



Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God." Romans 2:28, 29
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal. 3:28, 29.
Remeber that Abraham was not a Jew, niether was Noah, or Enoch (who walked with God), The true believers are the ones who are chosen. They are the ones who will be like the stars in the heavens, and the sand on the seashore. All through history, if you could count the number of believers, it would be a huge number indeed.

All of the times that God helped Israel defeat other nations... all of the plagues and smitings carried out against the enemies of Israel in the Old Testament, and you don't think that we were supposed to believe that God had a "chosen people"? The Old Testament I think makes it pretty clear.
God used Israel to drive out and destroy the nations who were past the point of redemtion. Many of these nations practiced such things as offering their children as human sacrifices to their gods, so don't feel too bad for them. He also used Israel as a nation who would keep alive a knowledge of the true God.

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." Ephesians 5:22-24
"For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner" 1 Tim 2:12-14
"...and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee" Genesis 3:16
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man..." 1 Cor 11:3
"Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man" 1 Cor 11:9
Those are all just verses which explicitly tell us that women are inferior or to be subject to men... but there are countless more examples of women being taken as a prize for battles and so on. There's no denying that the OT treats women as distinctly inferior.

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her," Ephesians 5:25. Sounds pretty inferior, huh? If you are to love someone enough that you would die for them, how could you possibly think of them as inferior? Being "the head" of the woman does not mean that you rule over her like a tyrant. If God did created us, then He knows what our roles are. Men and Women are equal, but with distinct roles. In the same way; I am not any less of a human being than the President (whether Republican or Democrat). But it is his job to be the head over me, as well as the head OF STATE . That does not make me inferior to him. If anything, it makes him OUR servant.

[MrAmerica]

Logic 85 wrote:

I don't know much about this "fulfilled" prophecy, but if you think the Bible is inspired because of the prophecies it has fulfilled you are only looking at half the picture. Here are some of the other prophecies you have conveniently ignored (which haven't been fulfilled):

Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.

Here God tells Isaac that his descendents (Hebrews) will be as numerous as the stars. Considering the number of stars there are in the universe, that would have to be on the order of 1020 Jewish people.
The descendents of Isaac, and of Abraham were to be those of faith.
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Gal. 3:28, 29

Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

Damascus is still inhabited today with over a million people, and hardly a ruinous heap.
Damascas was over run by Tiglath-Pileser III of Asyria around 733/732 B.C., and was basically nothing but an Asyrian outpost for almost a century. Note that the prophecy did not say it would be a ruinous heap forever.

Isaiah 19:4-5 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts. And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.

The river mentioned here is the Nile. The Nile is still one of Egypt's greatest natural resource.
The Nile delta has suffered through countless droughts. The bible spoke about a few of them. The prophecy did not say this would necessarily be permanent.

Isaiah 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.

The Canaanite language has never been spoken in Egypt, and is now an extinct.
“In that day” is referring to the day when, AND IF, Egypt and other nations learned the foolishness of opposing God. This is a conditional prophecy, of which there are many in the bible. It is a “if this, then that” scenario.

Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

There are uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today.
“This is a Messianic prophecy of the future, as can be seen from verses 13-14; “Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently; He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high. Just as many were astonished at you, So His visage was marred more than any man, And His form more than the sons of men; So shall He sprinkle many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths at Him…” It is also a conditional Messianic prophecy. There are conditional prophecies such as Zech. 6:15; “And this shall come to pass if you diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God." Those will be fulfilled in the New Jerusalem. “Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” Rev. 21:1, 2.

Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

Nowhere in the Old Testament is such a prophecy found, so how could such a one be fulfilled?
The root of the Greek word translated “Nazareth” and “Nazarene” is nasar, or neser which is translated as “branch.” Isaiah called the Messiah “The Branch” in Isa. 11:1. So did Jeremiah in Jer. 23:5, 33:15 and Zech. 3:8 & 6:12.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Jesus tells the high priest that he would see his second coming. The high priest is long dead, and Jesus hasn't returned yet.
“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.” Rev. 1:7.
This prophecy was written when John was very old. The ones responsible for Jesus’ crucifixion were also very old or dead already. Revelation talks about a resurrection, that is when they will see Him. “But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power.”

No, I don't believe a word the bible says.
I'm sorry to hear that. :(

[DRMIZER]

Mr. America. . .to your original post. There are no logical explanations to these passages other than that the writers had a fantasy which eventually got to the people.

Your attempt at getting reasonable responses from Christians, et al. will be apologetics which attempt to explain the unexplainable.

[logic85]

DRMIZER the original post was written by me not MrAmerica.

[crawfish]

It's just an excuse. The bible used to be taken literally, now science disproves more and more, so the new excuses are "you shouldn't take it literally" e.g. "days don't really mean days" etc.

Well, you've obviously already made your mind up. I get the feeling you've done no more study of the bible than to skim over it, and to read biased accounts about it. There are a great many of us who have taken the study seriously, and have drawn very logical conclusions based on that deep study. I personally have read opinions from those both biased for and against the bible, as well as those who could be judged as unbiased. Nothing posted in any of these threads has been new to my ears, yet I still believe.

Bottom line: you can call them "excuses" and be done with it, but I know better.


No, I don't believe a word the bible says.

That's quite a statement, and probably marks you as more ignorant than someone who believes in God (for at least that cannot be disproven - while many of the things in the bible have been proven or are otherwise considered great truths). For many people, opening their minds means closing it to religion. One of the great paradoxes of our time, I suppose.
:)

[logic85]

Well, you've obviously already made your mind up.

Of course. What's the point of debating something if you don't firmly believe in it?

I get the feeling you've done no more study of the bible than to skim over it, and to read biased accounts about it.

Actually I used to be quite religious myself and give many lectures on religion, in fact religion is one of two things that I have studied in detail throughout my life, and have participated in many (and consequently won) many debates over this matter at different events. To say all I have done is skim the bible is ridiculous.

There are a great many of us who have taken the study seriously, and have drawn very logical conclusions based on that deep study. I personally have read opinions from those both biased for and against the bible, as well as those who could be judged as unbiased.

The only logical conclusion you can take after reading the bible is that it was written by a man and is full of a lot of garbage.

Nothing posted in any of these threads has been new to my ears, yet I still believe.

There's nothing wrong with faith. It's your life that is being wasted, not mine.

That's quite a statement, and probably marks you as more ignorant than someone who believes in God.

By saying I don't believe in the Bible that makes me an ignorant person?

for at least that cannot be disproven - while many of the things in the bible have been proven or are otherwise considered great truths).

Santa Claus can't be completely disproven, but, like God, you can give very convincing arguments that almost certainly disprove it.

For many people, opening their minds means closing it to religion. One of the great paradoxes of our time, I suppose.

Not really....

[crawfish]

Of course. What's the point of debating something if you don't firmly believe in it?


To learn something new? To see life from a different point of view? For introspection?

Debate is simply competitive arguing. The point is NOT to discern the truth or understand your opposition (although either can happen) , but to win the argument. I prefer to discuss.

Actually I used to be quite religious myself and give many lectures on religion, in fact religion is one of two things that I have studied in detail throughout my life, and have participated in many (and consequently won) many debates over this matter at different events. To say all I have done is skim the bible is ridiculous.

Debating is one thing, understanding another. I have a talent for understanding; for seeing things through other people's eyes. I can see why some people choose to not believe in the Bible, or rationalize that it's not true. What bugs me most is people who can't recipricate by understanding that someone can be rational and come to a different conclusion concerning God.


The only logical conclusion you can take after reading the bible is that it was written by a man and is full of a lot of garbage.

...which leads me to believe you don't really understand it, at least at the level I do. You were a Christian with biases, and now you're an athiest with the exact opposite biases.

There's nothing wrong with faith. It's your life that is being wasted, not mine.

If I die tomorrow and there is no heaven, I still don't regret a thing. Christianity has made me a better person than I would have been otherwise.


By saying I don't believe in the Bible that makes me an ignorant person?

No, by saying "I don't believe one word the bible says" makes you an ignorant person. It's fairly simple to prove that some things in the Bible are true; for instance, for a long time archaelogists thought the Bible was erroneous in its mention of a Hittite nation that never existed; however, that was eventually proven right.

To say one believes in something that cannot be disproven can be ignorant; the say one believes in something that CAN be disproven is definitely ignorant. Your statement falls into the latter category.

[logic85]

...which leads me to believe you don't really understand it, at least at the level I do. You were a Christian with biases, and now you're an athiest with the exact opposite biases.

Firstly I am a Jew not a Christian, and trust me I do understand it, and I have seen both sides because for the majority of my life I have been religious.

If I die tomorrow and there is no heaven, I still don't regret a thing. Christianity has made me a better person than I would have been otherwise.

What if you have been following the wrong religion all this time??

:D :D

Especially in Islam...in Islam, Christians and Jews are hated, and moderate Muslims are "hypocrites"

[crawfish]

What if you have been following the wrong religion all this time??

:D :D

Especially in Islam...in Islam, Christians and Jews are hated, and moderate Muslims are "hypocrites"

Then I'll buy the drinks in hell... :devil:

[DRMIZER]

DRMIZER the original post was written by me not MrAmerica.Sorry :o

[2ruballa]

VERSES 2 AND ONWARD IN GENESIS EXPLAIN HOW THAT FIRST STATEMENT IN GENESIS CAME TO BE


I need to correct myself. I should have said that verse 2 and onward in Genesis explain how the first statement in Genesis came to be COMPLETELY FINISHED.

So verse 1 in Genesis is not meant to be looked at as a summary of the creation story even though if you were to take it as a summary of the creation story it would be a correct summary. Rather, it is meant to be read in a chronological order just like it is written.

Therefore, in verse 2 since the 'waters' are already there we can come to the conclusion that God FIRST created the heavens (not including the highest heaven) and the earth as a dark and formless waterworld from which God then commanded light to appear and for the waters to separate.