Islam - "thoughts"

[logic85]

What are your thoughts on Islam? To me, it is obviously a religion that supports terror and violence, the question is what should be done about it? How should it be exposed??

[marv]

First, a look at the principal religions. Monotheism originated in Pharonic Egypt. I was taken to Palestine where the ancient Jews had been worshiping any number of deities. Moses' god was actually a deity that resided on a mountain top along with lightening and thunder. Gradually he was anthromorphized.

Along came Christianity, an outgrowth of Judaism. It was a nice sort of religion, comparatively speaking, and became quite popular. But it also became quite different from Judaism.

During all this time, powerful nation states had developed. But Arabs, except for ocassional trade, were isolated and maintained a tribalistic society. Tribalism is inherently violent. Islam, arising in this environment, tends toward a need to dominate. The Roman Empire taught the Jews that violence really has no good outcome. It took Christians another thousand years to learn the same lesson. Islam hasn't learned it yet. It's still a religion of growth or death. None of this laissez faire stuff for Islam, Christian missionaries not withstanding. Islam is aggressive.

Islam is an amalgam of Egyptian monotheism, Judaism, Christianity and a smattering of the polytheism of the Arab tribes of the times. It was an attemp to attract everyone. And if it didn't, conquering them was okay, too.

What's to be done with it? Who knows. It certainly needs a renaissance. Short of that, conquering will do. It's time for people to stop killing in the name of some god.

[logic85]

Christianity and Judaism both follow the Old Testament. Within these books, there are some recordings of horrific incidents.

But this cannot compare to the Muslim books.

<mod edit>

That religion needs to be exposed until it is too late.

[Equinox]

First, a look at the principal religions. Monotheism originated in Pharonic Egypt. I was taken to Palestine where the ancient Jews had been worshiping any number of deities. Moses' god was actually a deity that resided on a mountain top along with lightening and thunder. Gradually he was anthromorphized.

Along came Christianity, an outgrowth of Judaism. It was a nice sort of religion, comparatively speaking, and became quite popular. But it also became quite different from Judaism.

During all this time, powerful nation states had developed. But Arabs, except for ocassional trade, were isolated and maintained a tribalistic society. Tribalism is inherently violent. Islam, arising in this environment, tends toward a need to dominate. The Roman Empire taught the Jews that violence really has no good outcome. It took Christians another thousand years to learn the same lesson. Islam hasn't learned it yet. It's still a religion of growth or death. None of this laissez faire stuff for Islam, Christian missionaries not withstanding. Islam is aggressive.

Islam is an amalgam of Egyptian monotheism, Judaism, Christianity and a smattering of the polytheism of the Arab tribes of the times. It was an attemp to attract everyone. And if it didn't, conquering them was okay, too.

What's to be done with it? Who knows. It certainly needs a renaissance. Short of that, conquering will do. It's time for people to stop killing in the name of some god.

That whole post was a generalization about a religion. How can speak so objectively about the whole of a religion?

[logic85]

It's a fact though..

Islam promotes terror, violence and inequality.

Mohammed was a thief, liar, anti-semite, rapist and a paedophile.

I never said that. He did. Read the books.

[Michele]

What are your thoughts on Islam? To me, it is obviously a religion that supports terror and violence, the question is what should be done about it?

From what I can gather thus far, that is incorrect. The islamists are a split from orthodox Islam.

This article may help for starters. In essence, the radical islamists are misrepresenting the Koran. Should the actions and interpretations of those who invoke the non Jewish laws from the talmud account for Judaism? In other words, are the teachings of Meir Kahane and Kach to be used as representative of Judaism? Shall we smear all of Christianity due to the prophetic ravings of the dispensationalists?

Global jihad and the European arena
By Reuven Paz

The term global jihad marks and reflects the solidarity of variety of movements, groups, and sometimes ad hoc groupings or cells, which act under a kind of ideological umbrella of radical interpretations of Islam. These interpretations are mainly a result of older developments in the Arab world since the early 1960s; the tendency to focus on easily adopted elements of Islam; A relative ignorance of principal elements of Orthodox Islam as a result of the spread of secularism; and above all – great difficulties in coping with the environment of Western modernization and its values, both in the West and in the Westernizing Arab societies.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EA23Ak01.html

I think mixing the two together is wrong. However, what is a potential and growing hazard at this time according to the above article. The distorted interpretations, as presented by the radical form of Islam through their ideologue, is reaching a young generation of Muslims whom preceive the ideologue to be true (as well as the threat the West represents )and are being persuaded to embrace Jihad as the remedy.

The radical islamist ideologue is explained with some depth in the above article. At this time and due to my reading so far, the premise that these distorted interpretations are representative of the whole of Islam, would be as fallacious as saying the Catastrophe as inflicted upon the indigenous peole of palestine is part and parcel of the ideology of Judaism.

so far that is my assessment of this insistance or concensus in America that it is orthodox doctrine of Islam that is in support of terror and violence. I do not see that as being truth. But of course I haven't inundated myself with the "commentary" of Danial Pipes, Alan Dershowitz, or Frontpagemagazine.

The author of the article does not appear to be a leftist or a radical. In fact he WINEP published his book on this subject, and while I am wary of the Institute and it's agenda... I find this article to strike the right balance as the author does make what I have always felt were the needed delineations.

Reuven Paz, Senior Fellow with the Gloria Center, is the founder and director of the Project for the Research of Radical Islamism. He is also a Senior Research Fellow at the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism (ICT), and has published numerous articles in the fields of Palestinian society and politics, the Israeli Arabs and Palestinian and Arab Islamic movements, Islamic movements and anti-Semitism, Islamist international networks, and terrorist groups and Islamist terrorism. A book, Tangled Web: International Islamist Networking was published in the summer of 2002 by The Washington Institute for Near East Policy.

Those who wish to insist it is Islam that is in support of terror and violence, don't waste your time reading the article. It does strike the needed balance on the subject. In doing so, it doesn't in an way shape or form pull any punches as to the signficances of the threat. It is significant. But these Islamists are a threat to Muslim countries as well for they are, not only ignorant of Orthodox Islam, they are anti government groups that seem to pull their persuasion from armeggadon prophecy, much like the dispensationalists do. It just so happens rather than being a threat to solely Arab Nations (as the coo coo's in the Settlements are to Palestinians), they are a threate to the Western World as well.

The article is very informative, my guess is the majority prefer the anti-Islam slogans over wanting to take the time to inform themselves with the needed specificity.

However, who know perhaps I have misunderstood everything I have thus far read on the subject.

[Michele]

It's a fact though..

Islam promotes terror, violence and inequality.

Mohammed was a thief, liar, anti-semite, rapist and a paedophile.

I never said that. He did. Read the books.

you are wigging me out...

Is it a fact? please provide us with sources on the subject. Thus far from what I have read on the subject it is a smear. I truly can not believe you would make statements about the prophet in this manner without sufficient substantiation. Please if you would provide it.

[logic85]

Okay tell me anything you don't believe.

You don't think Islam commands Jihad? Or that it supports terror? Or that it is unfair to women?

Anti-semitic? Anti-Christian? (calls for the death of both groups) Anti-atheists?

What about Mohammed? Don't believe he was a thief, liar, paedophile, rapist or an anti-semite?

Just tell me what you want to know and I will tell you.

[Michele]

here is the bottom line. America can remain as ignorant about Islam and the Muslim world as those who fall victim to the ideologue of the radical islamists. However, in doing so you see we are not combatting the problem correctly. By not combatting the problem correctly our current aggressive actions are indeed playing right into the propaganda these radical groups are using to recruit and spread this radicalized version of Islam to a younger generation some of which are impacted by occupation, oppression, poverty, thereby making them that much more susceptible to the distortions a group like ALQ is disseminating.

So go ahead keep forwarding the ignorant slogans regarding the muslim world and Islam and we are going to get waltzed right into the next world war. It will be not be as pretty as WWII, either (for those with a stomack for this sort of inhumanity. For without the appropriate understanding we are not battling this properly and our propaganda is inflaming our collective to make blanket statements about Islam and the Moslim world , manipulating our fears and hates, in the very same way ALQ and all the various splinter Islamist groups are manipulating the fear and hate of those on the ground in locations where their lives are a sight more difficult than ours, as well as within Europe, South America, Indonesia, the UK, and the US.

So keep smearing Islam and the Muslim world as if the corruption lies solely and completely within the religion rather than within the interpretation. For these islamists aren't distorting verse any differently than Hitler or Meir Kahane or the KKK.

The difference is in the ME where the main group originated they has been war since the Ottoman fell in one form or another involving colonialization, imperialism as well as occupation.

For god sakes people Egypt has been fighting this same element and warned us about ALQ's mastermind in the nineties. what is the point of smearing Islam?

[Michele]

Okay tell me anything you don't believe.

You don't think Islam commands Jihad? Or that it supports terror? Or that it is unfair to women?

Anti-semitic? Anti-Christian? (calls for the death of both groups) Anti-atheists?

What about Mohammed? Don't believe he was a thief, liar, paedophile, rapist or an anti-semite?

Just tell me what you want to know and I will tell you.

sorry logic85... I threw down an article which backs up my assertions with regard to Islamists versus Islam, and my opinions. the article deals in facts and I do believe it is cited. I am not going to have a go round on this with you unless you throw down something to back up your assertions. For where I agree with you on other topics, I strongly disagree with you on this.

With regard to Mohammed, please present an article (sources) with links that I can verify for myself. for you see I don't believe anyone without looking into things myself even those I generally seem to agree with . I need your reading material on this before we go any further.

Because I can not abide by what I preceive to be a smear of a whole religion. Critiques on aspects of its orthodox laws, perhaps, corruptions in its dogma, but not the smear of a whole religion.

have you read Muslim feminist literature on Islam and Islamic law... is your frame of reference specifically from Jewish religious criticism... you have to give me a hint.

[marv]

Okay, here's a primer on Shia (http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/islam/shia/index.html) and Sunni (http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/islam/sunni/index.html) Islam. And here's the main (http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/) page.

[Michele]

Logic 85 I added to this so I am reposting:

With regard to Mohammed, please present an article (sources) with links that I can verify for myself. for you see I don't believe anyone without looking into things myself even those I generally seem to agree with . I need your reading material on this before we go any further.

Because I can not abide by what I preceive to be a smear of a whole religion. Critiques on aspects of its orthodox laws, perhaps, corruptions in its dogma, but not the smear of a whole religion.

have you read Muslim feminist literature on Islam and Islamic law... is your frame of reference specifically from Jewish religious criticism... you have to give me a hint.

[ukangel]

It is certainly true that one of Mohammeds wives was a small child when they were married do I think thats were the paedophile statement comes from. Of course that was a different culture but she was very young.

[Thermopylae]

I looked into this and I found a brief summary of fact-based opinions. This being from http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Muhammad/gary.htm#what
_______________
What was Muhammad?
According to the missionary:

* Muhammad massacred his prisoners of war indiscriminately. He was a criminal and a mass murderer. [Response]
* Muhammad sent his men to kill his opponents in the middle of the night using deceit and lies. He was an assassin. [Response]
* Muhammad raided merchant caravans and stole their goods. He was a highway robber. [Response]
* Muhammad captured human beings and sold them or asked for a payment of a ransom to release them. He was a slave merchant and a terrorist. [Response]
* Muhammad, at the age of 53, became aroused by a 9-year-old child. He was a paedophile. [Response]
* Muhammad forced himself on a captured woman on the same day that he killed her father, husband and many of her relatives. He was a rapist.
________

And ultimately it comes down to this, rape is rape. Rape is universal in definition, it does not matter if it is commonplace in a society, that does not make it right. And ultimately, I have to say that Muhammed was a dirty thug. I have expressed my opinion regarding polygamy many, many times, and Muhammed is sort of the flagship of the concept... sick, just sick.

[logic85]

Good muslims are the ones that participate in Jihad. Good muslims are the muslims that are fighting Jews and Christians. Indeed, muslims are commanded to fight Jews and Christians:

Qur’an 5:51: “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.”

Qur’an 66:9: “O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelieving Infidels and the Hypocrites; be severe against them. Their abode is Hell, an evil resort.”

Ishaq 262: “Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur’an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse.”

Qur’an 5:51: “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”

Bukhari V5B59N727: “When Allah’s Apostle became seriously sick, he started covering his face with a woollen sheet. When he felt short of breath, he removed it, and said, ‘That is so! Allah’s curse be on Jews and Christians.”

Ishaq 249: “Fear Hell, whose fuel is men and stones prepared for the infidels.”

These are a few I have found; which I have checked; they are not taken out of context, if you don't believe me look the verses up there's plenty of online translations of the Muslim books around.


Bad muslims are peaceful muslims. Allah does not like these people.

Qur’an 4:88: “What is the matter with you that you are divided about the Hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (causing their disbelief). Would you guide those whom Allah has thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah has thrown aside and led astray, never shall they find the Way.”

Qur’an 9:16: “Do you think you will get away before Allah knows who among you have striven hard and fought?”

Qur’an 9:38: “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to march forth in the Cause of Allah (i.e., Jihad) you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you march, He will afflict and punish you with a painful torture, and put others in your place. But you cannot harm Him in the least.”

Qur’an 9:67: “The Hypocrites enjoin what are forbidden and forbid what Islam commands. They withhold their hands (from spending in Allah’s Cause [Jihad]). They have forgotten Allah so He has forgotten them. Verily the Hypocrites are oblivious, rebellious and perverse.”

Qur’an 9:68 “Allah has promised the Hypocrites, both men and women, and the disbelievers the Fire of Hell for their abode: Therein shall they dwell. It will suffice them. On them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment, a lasting torment.”

Qur’an 8:20: “Those who do not obey are the worst of beasts, the vilest of animals in the sight of Allah. They are deaf and dumb. Those who do not understand are senseless.”

Once again, these are just a few quotes, if you want I'll give you thousands.


Allah also commands you follow Islam.

Bukhari V9B84N59: “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.”

Qur’an 4:168: “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”

Qur’an 4:114: “He who disobeys the Apostle after guidance has been revealed will burn in Hell.”

Bukhari V4B52N260: “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.”

Qur’an 48:13: “If any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared a Blazing Fire for them!”

Qur’an 18:103 “Say: ‘Shall we inform you of who will be the greatest losers? …Those that reject my Revelations… Hell is their reward, because they rejected Islam, and took my proofs, verses, and lessons, and those of My Messengers by way of jest in mockery.”

Any more quotes needed?

I can give quotes to anything you want. Do you want quotes proving Islam promotes Jihad and terror? Or about Mohammed? I'll give it all.

[ukangel]

* Muhammad, at the age of 53, became aroused by a 9-year-old child. He was a paedophile. [Response]
*

If we are talking about Ayesha which I think we are its actually worse than that, they were married when she was six and he was fifty four. Though the relationship wasnt consumated until she was nine.

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Narrated 'Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'


http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.064

[marv]

ukangel, and Thermopylae,Muhammad, at the age of 53, became aroused by a 9-year-old child. He was a paedophile.Muhammad's child-bride actually was seven when they were married although, out of "courtesy", the marraige wasn't consumated until she was nine.

[logic85]

Mohammed was a paedophile.

Ishaq 281:“The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six.”
Tabari VII:6: “When the Apostle came to Medina he was fifty-three.”
Tabari IX:128: “When the Prophet married Aisha, she was very young and not yet ready for consummation.” This is how it happened:
Tabari IX:131: “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.”

A 53 year old marries a 6 year old. They have sexual intercourse when she is 9 and he is 56.

[Michele]

Good muslims are the ones that participate in Jihad. Good muslims are the muslims that are fighting Jews and Christians. Indeed, muslims are commanded to fight Jews and Christians:

Qur’an 5:51: “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.”

Qur’an 66:9: “O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelieving Infidels and the Hypocrites; be severe against them. Their abode is Hell, an evil resort.”

Ishaq 262: “Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur’an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse.”

Qur’an 5:51: “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”

Bukhari V5B59N727: “When Allah’s Apostle became seriously sick, he started covering his face with a woollen sheet. When he felt short of breath, he removed it, and said, ‘That is so! Allah’s curse be on Jews and Christians.”

Ishaq 249: “Fear Hell, whose fuel is men and stones prepared for the infidels.”

These are a few I have found; which I have checked; they are not taken out of context, if you don't believe me look the verses up there's plenty of online translations of the Muslim books around.


Bad muslims are peaceful muslims. Allah does not like these people.

Qur’an 4:88: “What is the matter with you that you are divided about the Hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (causing their disbelief). Would you guide those whom Allah has thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah has thrown aside and led astray, never shall they find the Way.”

Qur’an 9:16: “Do you think you will get away before Allah knows who among you have striven hard and fought?”

Qur’an 9:38: “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to march forth in the Cause of Allah (i.e., Jihad) you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you march, He will afflict and punish you with a painful torture, and put others in your place. But you cannot harm Him in the least.”

Qur’an 9:67: “The Hypocrites enjoin what are forbidden and forbid what Islam commands. They withhold their hands (from spending in Allah’s Cause [Jihad]). They have forgotten Allah so He has forgotten them. Verily the Hypocrites are oblivious, rebellious and perverse.”

Qur’an 9:68 “Allah has promised the Hypocrites, both men and women, and the disbelievers the Fire of Hell for their abode: Therein shall they dwell. It will suffice them. On them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment, a lasting torment.”

Qur’an 8:20: “Those who do not obey are the worst of beasts, the vilest of animals in the sight of Allah. They are deaf and dumb. Those who do not understand are senseless.”

Once again, these are just a few quotes, if you want I'll give you thousands.


Allah also commands you follow Islam.

Bukhari V9B84N59: “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.”

Qur’an 4:168: “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”

Qur’an 4:114: “He who disobeys the Apostle after guidance has been revealed will burn in Hell.”

Bukhari V4B52N260: “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.”

Qur’an 48:13: “If any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared a Blazing Fire for them!”

Qur’an 18:103 “Say: ‘Shall we inform you of who will be the greatest losers? …Those that reject my Revelations… Hell is their reward, because they rejected Islam, and took my proofs, verses, and lessons, and those of My Messengers by way of jest in mockery.”

Any more quotes needed?

I can give quotes to anything you want. Do you want quotes proving Islam promotes Jihad and terror? Or about Mohammed? I'll give it all.


this does not help me Logic85. For who is it that is interpreting for us that Good muslims are those that participate in jihad. And in what circumstances. I am under the impression that like the Talmudic laws some hinge upon circumstances and interpretion. The advisement of fundamentalist Jews would coincide with taking up arms to fight their enemy as well. But this does not mean Judaism is the culprit.

I can pull all the quotes from the talmud that are as damning and those quotes which slander Jesus christ.

I am aware Islamists embrace jihad only, as their remedy or solution based in a distortion of the teachings, but I am not convinced the teaching of the Islam outside of the radical realm preaches jihad. That is where I am not convinced.

[Larani]

I am kind of curious what people thought of this article that got posted.

Global jihad and the European arena
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EA23Ak01.html

Seems to me a world war is most likely. I think were all just deluding ourselves if we think otherwise. It is clear from a historical perspective WWII would not have happened if the German people wouldn't have allowed Hitler and his gang to take power, but they did and it ended up becoming a world problem that ultimately lead to war.

You cannot preach of things about 3rd Reich, 1,000 year domination, and and classifying those that are not of your kind as sub-human and subservient without those on the outside saying did you here that? That some dangerous propaganda. Now if its just propaganda no foul but as soon as people start acting on it people on the outside start taking it seriously.

I guess what I am saying is these Islamists are Islams problem and Islam had better do something about them. Lest the world end up doing something about them and its just gets worst. Of all the discussion I have had or seen with Non-Muslim that seems to be the underlying sediment.

All be honest I liked the article but as a Non-Muslim It didn't make me one bit comfortable reading it. Yes I understand Islamists have hijacked and distort the Koran, but Kafirs cannot challenge these guys because by its very nature any challenge is a attack against Islam and any attack against Islam is interpreted scripturally as Muslims are justified to defend themselves, hence it is a dilemma that is unsolvable except from the inside.

These guys need to realize their will be no more Ottoman Empire, There will be no worldwide Islam domination. No Caliphate running the show and any talk like that is no different the Hitler and His 3rd Riech. These guys need to walk up and smell the coffee is what I am saying and those Muslims that can see this danger within need top stand up to these guys and put them down from the inside. Anyone teaching this stuff.. and teaching people to go out and wage Jihad to bring it to pass needs a straight Jacket but it needs to be Muslims putting on the straight Jackest because as I said if the outside world the Kafirs have to do it.. It gonna get real messy. As history has already shown to us.

[Michele]

I am kind of curious what people thought of this article that got posted.

Global jihad and the European arena
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EA23Ak01.html

Seems to me a world war is most likely. I think were all just deluding ourselves if we think otherwise. It is clear from a historical perspective WWII would not have happened if the German people wouldn't have allowed Hitler and his gang to take power, but they did and it ended up becoming a world problem that ultimately lead to war.

You cannot preach of things about 3rd Reich, 1,000 year domination, and and classifying those that are not of your kind as sub-human and subservient without those on the outside saying did you here that? That some dangerous propaganda. Now if its just propaganda no foul but as soon as people start acting on it people on the outside start taking it seriously.

I guess what I am saying is these Islamists are Islams problem and Islam had better do something about them. Lest the world end up doing something about them and its just gets worst. Of all the discussion I have had or seen with Non-Muslim that seems to be the underlying sediment.

All be honest I liked the article but as a Non-Muslim It didn't make me one bit comfortable reading it. Yes I understand Islamists have hijacked and distort the Koran, but Kafirs cannot challenge these guys because by its very nature any challenge is a attack against Islam and any attack against Islam is interpreted scripturally as Muslims are justified to defend themselves, hence it is a dilemma that is unsolvable except from the inside.

These guys need to realize their will be no more Ottoman Empire, There will be no worldwide Islam domination. No Caliphate running the show and any talk like that is no different the Hitler and His 3rd Riech. These guys need to walk up and smell the coffee is what I am saying and those Muslims that can see this danger within need top stand up to these guys and put them down from the inside. Anyone teaching this stuff.. and teaching people to go out and wage Jihad to bring it to pass needs a straight Jacket but it needs to be Muslims putting on the straight Jackest because as I said if the outside world the Kafirs have to do it.. It gonna get real messy. As history has already shown to us.


the article is already posted here, Larani. From it I got that the the radical islamists are distorting the teachings of Islam to serve their radical views and their distorted idealogue. Here is what I needed clarified beyond a doubt.

[Michele]

I looked into this and I found a brief summary of fact-based opinions. This being from http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Muhammad/gary.htm#what
_______________
What was Muhammad?
According to the missionary:

* Muhammad massacred his prisoners of war indiscriminately. He was a criminal and a mass murderer. [Response]
* Muhammad sent his men to kill his opponents in the middle of the night using deceit and lies. He was an assassin. [Response]
* Muhammad raided merchant caravans and stole their goods. He was a highway robber. [Response]
* Muhammad captured human beings and sold them or asked for a payment of a ransom to release them. He was a slave merchant and a terrorist. [Response]
* Muhammad, at the age of 53, became aroused by a 9-year-old child. He was a paedophile. [Response]
* Muhammad forced himself on a captured woman on the same day that he killed her father, husband and many of her relatives. He was a rapist.
________

And ultimately it comes down to this, rape is rape. Rape is universal in definition, it does not matter if it is commonplace in a society, that does not make it right. And ultimately, I have to say that Muhammed was a dirty thug. I have expressed my opinion regarding polygamy many, many times, and Muhammed is sort of the flagship of the concept... sick, just sick.


yes I would agree rape is rape in all causes. but this site is an Islam christian site?

[Michele]

If we are talking about Ayesha which I think we are its actually worse than that, they were married when she was six and he was fifty four. Though the relationship wasnt consumated until she was nine.

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Narrated 'Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'


http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.064


This was centuries ago. and this is not an instance of rape this is marriage to what by modern standards would be a minor. Are their not others within the Old testament that married a young girl? I am asking. I do not know.

[logic85]

this does not help me Logic85. For who is it that is interpreting for us that Good muslims are those that participate in jihad.

Qur’an 4:95: “Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard, fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard, fighting Jihad with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Unto each has Allah promised good, but He prefers Jihadists who strive hard and fight above those who sit home. He has distinguished his fighters with a huge reward.

This clearly shows us that a good Muslim is one that is a jihadist.

I am under the impression that like the Talmudic laws some hinge upon circumstances and interpretion. The advisement of fundamentalist Jews would coincide with taking up arms to fight their enemy as well. But this does not mean Judaism is the culprit.

As a former religious Jew, I studied the Talmud a lot. Evidently, it is full of racist laws and instructions - however the Qur'an takes it to another level - it actually orders you to kill Jews and Christians.

Qur’an 4:55: “Sufficient for the Jew is the Flaming Fire!”

Qur’an 5:73: “They are surely disbelievers who blaspheme and say: ‘God is one of three in the Trinity for there is no Ilah (God) except One, Allah. If they desist not from saying this (blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall them—the disbelievers will suffer a painful doom.”

Those who don't are damned by their own God.

Qur’an 9:38: “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to march forth in the Cause of Allah (i.e. Jihad) you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you march, He will afflict and punish you with a painful torture, and put others in your place. But you cannot harm Him in the least.”

[Michele]

you know I am not sure you read through this site very thoroughly here is the response to this claim.



* Muhammad, at the age of 53, became aroused by a 9-year-old child. He was a paedophile. [Response]


here is the response for this what appears to be a fallacious assertion:

Sadly we currently see the efforts of the Christian missionary activity focused primarily on derailing Islam now more than any other period in history. Thus, we witness numerous travesties and parodies coming from them in their attempts to twist, manipulate and totally abuse historical and etymological facts. These polemics range from a variety of the utterly hilarious to the outright abusive and cruel. One such dishonest Christian missionary polemic has been the allegation of the young marriage of `Âishah(R) to the Prophet Muhammad(P). The missionaries try to accuse the Prophet of being a child molester, albeit in politically correct terms, due to the fact that `Âishah(R) was betrothed (zawaj) at the age of 6 years old and the marriage was consummated (nikâh) a few years after the marriage at 9 years old when she was in full puberty. The lapse of time between the zawaj and nikâh of `Âishah(R) clearly shows that her parents were waiting for her to reach puberty before her marriage was consummated. If it were not for the fact that some gullible Christians have been parroting the claims without understanding the reasons behind it, we would have not even bothered with a refutation. Such a claim is based only on conjecture and moral relativism, and not on fact. This article seeks to refute the allegation, insha'allah.

Puberty And Young Marriage In Semitic Culture

The hilarity of the whole saga of Christian missionaries accusing the Prophet(P) of committing "child molestation" is that this contradicts the basic fact that a girl becomes a woman when she begins her menstruation cycle. The significance of menstruation that anyone with the slightest familiarity with physiology will tell you is that it is a sign that the girl is being prepared to become a mother.

Women reach puberty at different ages ranging from 8-12 years old depending on genetics, race and environment......

Marriage at the early years of puberty was acceptable in 7th century Arabia as it was the social norm in all Semitic cultures from the Israelites to the Arabs and all nations in between. According to Hâ-Talmûd Hâ-Bavlî, which the Jews regard as their "oral Torah", Sanhedrin 76b clearly states that it is preferable that a woman be married when she has her first menses, and in Ketuvot 6a there are rules regarding sexual intercourse with girls who have not yet menstruated. This is further collaborated when Jim West, ThD, a Baptist minister, observes the following tradition of the Israelites:

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Polemics/aishah.htm






* Muhammad forced himself on a captured woman on the same day that he killed her father, husband and many of her relatives. He was a rapist.
________



There has been some criticism going around as to the nature of marriage of Safiyyah(R), the Jewish wife of Muhammad(P). A rabid missionary hostile to the Prophet Muhammad(P) had in fact the audacity to say that:

Muhammad forced himself on a captured woman on the same day that he killed her father, husband and many of her relatives. He was a rapist.

This statement made by this ignorant missionary is due not only to the gutter environment that he was brought up and subjected to, but also because of his inability to understand the circumstances surrounding this event. Insha'allah, our purpose here is to explain the circumstances and the nature of the marriage of Safiyyah to the Prophet(P).

The response is included within the very same site you placed as your source

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Muhammad/safiyyah.htm


I WOULD SUGGEST THERMO YOU ACTUALLY READ THE SITES YOU PLACE BEFORE MAKING THE ASSERTIONS YOU DO. FOR THE VERY SITE YOU PROVIDED US ACTUALLY CONTRADICTS WHAT APPEARS TO BE AN UNINFORMED OPINION.

THE SUMMARIES ARE PROVIDED FOR EVERY NEGATIVE ASSERTION MADE ABOUT MUHAMMED RIGHT THERE IN THE SITE YOU PLACED ITSELF.

[Michele]

Qur’an 4:95: “Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard, fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard, fighting Jihad with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Unto each has Allah promised good, but He prefers Jihadists who strive hard and fight above those who sit home. He has distinguished his fighters with a huge reward.

This clearly shows us that a good Muslim is one that is a jihadist.


What this clearly shows me is that you have pulled a quote from the koran with no interpretation for it but what appears to be your own. That isn't going to convince me of anything more than that this is your opinion based on no commentary provided.





As a former religious Jew, I studied the Talmud a lot. Evidently, it is full of racist laws and instructions - however the Qur'an takes it to another level - it actually orders you to kill Jews and Christians.


Under what circumstances? without the proper context on Baruch Goldstein and how and why it was he invoked halacha to let non-Jews die and then justify that massacre he conducted in that mosque, one can also come up with a similar assessment regarding Classical Judaism, if not properly read they would extrapoliate it out of all context.

You know I am kind of surprised that you wold resort to just pulling quotes out of context without providing any scholarly discourse to make up the extreme claim you are making. I never even spoke about the talmud's antiGoyim sentiments till I had read and and half books on it both written by a secular Jew... in essence, commenting on his own.

So that is the least respect I would need to give similar koranic verses before I would go out on the limb you do. So what the koran appears to be preaching to kill jews but within what historic context does this arise for it is common knowledge both Christains and Jews can sanction the killing of Muslims as well.

I need more than random quotes and your word.

[Michele]

NOW INSTEAD IF YOU SAY TO ME LOGIC85....

that there are koranic versus if interpretated out of context it appears as if Islam commands one to kill Jews and Christians and these are the versus that the islamic wackos are taking out of context of the whole of Islam, then perhaps I can indulge your thoughts on this.

But that is not what you are saying. You are actually asserting with out providing any commentary by anyone, let along an Islamic cleric (not one from the radical realm) that islam calls for the wanton and irrational extermination of Jews and Christians.

Sorry, that strikes me as very irresponsible on your part. UNLESS YOU CAN SHOW ME SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE VERSUS PULLED OUT OF CONTEXT TO SUPPORT YOU ASSERTION.

So far you haven't done that.

[Thermopylae]

So, I guess by that logic, if a girl begins her menstration cycle at 3, then any guy can have sex with her...

[Michele]

this is so funny Thermo, it seems you really did a very fast search for without proper awareness you actually provide this thread a site that debunks all the myths that you yourself seem to be operating under...

this is a very interesting site BTW. Check this out. The following is provided literally right below those slanderous remarks against the Prophet, that you so happily provided us WITHOUT READING THE SITE ITSELF.

If one were to objectively study the missions of both Muhammad(P) and Jesus(P) side-by-side, it would immediately be concluded that Muhammad is Jesus doing the work of reconciliation in the seventh-century Arabia of warring tribes while Jesus is Muhammad doing the same work in the first-century Palestine occupied by an overwhelmingly powerful Rome. See:

Muhammad(P) & The Lies

Introduction

Since the time when Islam rose to spread its light across the Middle East, North Africa, Spain and parts of Europe, the Christian Church and the European rulers felt threatened religiously and politically. The Christian missionaries began studying Islam to spread lies and slander against its teachings, and in order to arouse the people's hatred and fear of Islam. They even concoct name-calling and slander against the Prophet Muhammad(P). This brief paper would serve to reflect on past and present polemical attacks made by Christians against the Prophet(P), insha'allah.
Language of the Christian Missionaries

The father of anti-Islamic polemics was John of Damascus (675-749), and when the Christian polemics started a few centuries ago in the era of the Crusades, he began the tradition of ridiculing Islam and the Prophet(P). He claimed in his book De Haeresbius, that the Qur'ân was not revealed but created by the Prophet(P), and that he was helped by a Christian monk, Bahira, to use the Old and New Testament to create a new scripture. He also claimed that the Prophet(P) created verses of the Qur'ân to fulfill his own wants, and these were usually to do with lust and sexual deviancy. Others followed John of Damascus in spreading ideas that portrayed Islam as an inferior religion, headed by Maracei, Hottinger, Nicholas de Cuse, Prideaux and others.[1] Later during the European scramble for colonial power in Asia and Africa, Christians once more encountered Islam. Most of the Muslim lands fell under direct or indirect European rule. It then became the policy of the Colonial Governments, supported by the Church, to portray Muslims as barbarians and try to destroy Islamic institutions, practices and influences.

MORE...

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Polemics/muh_lies.htm



THE ABOVE IS FROM THE SITE YOU PROVIDED US THERMO...LOL!

[Michele]

So, I guess by that logic, if a girl begins her menstration cycle at 3, then any guy can have sex with her...

I do suggest you read the rebuttal's provided thoroughly with regard to the norms within the semitic culture of that time before you start reinterpreting as per your overview.


I really do not mean to be disrespectful. You can continue to believe what you wish. But first go to each and every response to the slanderous assertions on Mohammad. They provide you the norma of the times regarding marrying young. Certainly by our modern times we can question it... but it appears, according to the rebutal provided that:

Marriage at the early years of puberty was acceptable in 7th century Arabia as it was the social norm in all Semitic cultures from the Israelites to the Arabs and all nations in between. According to Hâ-Talmûd Hâ-Bavlî, which the Jews regard as their "oral Torah", Sanhedrin 76b clearly states that it is preferable that a woman be married when she has her first menses, and in Ketuvot 6a there are rules regarding sexual intercourse with girls who have not yet menstruated. This is further collaborated when Jim West, ThD, a Baptist minister, observes the following tradition of the Israelites:

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Polemics/aishah.htm

All scriptural interpretation are weighed against the times and the circumstances within which they were first written.

[logic85]

The hilarity of the whole saga of Christian missionaries accusing the Prophet(P) of committing "child molestation" is that this contradicts the basic fact that a girl becomes a woman when she begins her menstruation cycle. The significance of menstruation that anyone with the slightest familiarity with physiology will tell you is that it is a sign that the girl is being prepared to become a mother.

Women reach puberty at different ages ranging from 8-12 years old depending on genetics, race and environment......

Marriage at the early years of puberty was acceptable in 7th century Arabia as it was the social norm in all Semitic cultures from the Israelites to the Arabs and all nations in between.

Okay, this is a good point but easily refutable. Incidentally, this is what Muslims read about women on the subject of menstruation:

Tabari I:280: “Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.’ Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid.”

Back to the point....let us go on with this chapter to see just how much of a peado Mo' really was...

After this little incident, Mo struggled to defend his actions:

“The Prophet said, ‘A virgin should not be married till she is asked for her consent.’ ‘O Apostle! How will the virgin express her consent?’ He said, ‘By remaining silent.’” Bukhari:V9B87N139-40 “Allah’s Apostle told Aisha, "You were shown to me twice in my dreams [a.k.a. sexual fantasies]. I beheld a man or angel carrying you in a silken cloth. He said to me, “She is yours, so uncover her.” And behold, it was you. I would then say to myself, “If this is from Allah, then it must happen.'"

Allah not only approved pedophilia, he insisted upon it. That makes the Islamic god as perverted as his prophet.

Since fifty-three-year-old pedophiles are not "prophet material," I want to give Islam every possible opportunity to clear this up. The next Hadith is from Aisha. Tabari VII:7 “There are special features in me that have not been in any woman except for what Allah bestowed on Maryam bt. Imran [She was referring to Mary, the mother of Jesus, although she didn’t know her name or her father’s name, and none of the “features” applied]. I do not say this to exalt myself over any of my companions.’ ‘What are these?’ someone asked. Aisha replied, ‘The angel brought down my likeness [she was a babe]; the Messenger married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine [she was abused]; he married me when I was a virgin, no other man having shared me with him [she was a child]; inspiration came to him when he and I were in a single blanket [she “inspired” him]; I was one of the dearest people to him; a verse of the Qur’an was revealed concerning me when the community was almost destroyed [she inspired Allah]; and I saw Gabriel when none of his other wives saw him [she lied].’”

Think about the implications of what she just said. Muhammad was “inspired”—a Qur’an surah was handed down while the prophet was having sex with a little girl. Allah didn’t find pedophilia the least bit troubling.

The following confirms that the first Muslims were consumed by greed, the prophet was inspired by the body of a child, and the circumstances surrounding Qur’an revelations were as perverted as the scripture itself.

Bukhari:V5B57N119 “The people used to send presents to the Prophet on the day of Aisha’s turn [to have sex with him]. Aisha said, ‘His other wives gathered in the apartment of Um Salama [wife number two] and said, “Um, the people send presents on the day of Aisha’s turn and we too, love the good presents just as much as she does. You should tell Allah’s Apostle to order the people to send their presents to him regardless of whose turn it may be.” Um repeated that to the Prophet and he turned away from her. When the Prophet returned to Um, she repeated the request again. The Prophet again turned away. After the third time, the Prophet said, “Um, don’t trouble me by harming Aisha, for by Allah, the Divine Inspiration [Qur’an surahs] never came to me while I was under the blanket of any woman among you except her.'"

I WOULD SUGGEST THERMO YOU ACTUALLY READ THE SITES YOU PLACE BEFORE MAKING THE ASSERTIONS YOU DO. FOR THE VERY SITE YOU PROVIDED US ACTUALLY CONTRADICTS WHAT APPEARS TO BE AN UNINFORMED OPINION.

I've never been on that website in my life. And I never placed it as my source either. I am getting this out of books, different resources, plus I own copies of all the Muslim books I can read it all myself.

[logic85]

What this clearly shows me is that you have pulled a quote from the koran with no interpretation for it but what appears to be your own. That isn't going to convince me of anything more than that this is your opinion based on no commentary provided.

This is over:

Qur’an 4:95: “Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard, fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard, fighting Jihad with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Unto each has Allah promised good, but He prefers Jihadists who strive hard and fight above those who sit home. He has distinguished his fighters with a huge reward.

How else can you interpret this verse?

If you really doubt this proves good muslims are jihadists, I'll give you more:

Bukhari V4B52N44: “A man came to Allah’s Apostle and said, ‘Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad in reward.’ He replied, ‘I do not find such a deed.”

Bukhari page 580: “Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its Pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah is made superior and He becomes the only God who may be worshiped. By Jihad Islam is propagated and made superior. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position. Their honour is lost, their lands are stolen, and Muslim rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape this duty dies as a hypocrite.”

Under what circumstances? without the proper context on Baruch Goldstein and how and why it was he invoked halacha to let non-Jews die and then justify that massacre he conducted in that mosque, one can also come up with a similar assessment regarding Classical Judaism, if not properly read they would extrapoliate it out of all context.

I have read the Talmud, it is a racist book, I'm not denying that. However, this is one man, I bet you couldn't give me just five more jews who have killed in the name of the Jewish God. All over the world, Muslims are killing; in Chechnya, Palestine, in the Arab countries, everywhere the Muslims are causing the problems. All in the name of Allah. And by the way, Allah is NOT just the Arabic for God, it is the name of their God.

You know I am kind of surprised that you wold resort to just pulling quotes out of context without providing any scholarly discourse to make up the extreme claim you are making. I never even spoke about the talmud's antiGoyim sentiments till I had read and and half books on it both written by a secular Jew... in essence, commenting on his own.

Why do you keep on referring to the Talmud? We are not discussing it, we are discussing how Islam supports terrorism.

I need more than random quotes and your word.

The Qur'an are the words of Mohammed, from Allah. I am giving you the words that are supposedly from their God and their prophet. What more can you want?


Islam says you are a fool for not believing in him. He says you will die. Why are you defending them?

Bukhari V9B84N59: “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.”

Qur’an 4:168: “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”

Qur’an 4:114: “He who disobeys the Apostle after guidance has been revealed will burn in Hell.”

Bukhari V4B52N260: “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.”

Qur’an 48:13: “If any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared a Blazing Fire for them!”

Qur’an 18:103 “Say: ‘Shall we inform you of who will be the greatest losers? …Those that reject my Revelations… Hell is their reward, because they rejected Islam, and took my proofs, verses, and lessons, and those of My Messengers by way of jest in mockery.”

Ishaq 363: “Say to those who do not believe you: ‘You will be vanquished and gathered into Hell, an evil resting place."

[Larani]

the article is already posted here, Larani. From it I got that the the radical islamists are distorting the teachings of Islam to serve their radical views and their distorted idealogue. Here is what I needed clarified beyond a doubt.

I do not understand what did you need to prove to you beyond a doubt. That Islamist were hijacking at using every available scripture from the Koran to push and indoctrinate Muslims to their cause. I thought that was common knowledge. Hitler used Mein Kampf on the young German youth and his supporters same crap different day.

Hell look at the posts being presented by the Kafirs. Is it any wonder they get nervous reading them and knowing full well that there are many guys out there using this Dogma to place them the Kafir's in a obvious hostile position and the only out for the Kafir's is conversion.

I know for me reading Mein Kampf didn't make me all to comfortable because I sure wouldn't have fit into old Hitler establishment and world view.

[Larani]

Here Michele listen to that,

Bukhari page 580: “Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its Pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah is made superior and He becomes the only God who may be worshiped. By Jihad Islam is propagated and made superior. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position. Their honour is lost, their lands are stolen, and Muslim rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape this duty dies as a hypocrite.”


If that isn't 3rd Reich, Thousand year domination propoganda what is it?

[Michele]

Okay, this is a good point but easily refutable. Incidentally, this is what Muslims read about women on the subject of menstruation:

Tabari I:280: “Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.’ Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid.”

Back to the point....let us go on with this chapter to see just how much of a peado Mo' really was...

After this little incident, Mo struggled to defend his actions:

“The Prophet said, ‘A virgin should not be married till she is asked for her consent.’ ‘O Apostle! How will the virgin express her consent?’ He said, ‘By remaining silent.’” Bukhari:V9B87N139-40 “Allah’s Apostle told Aisha, "You were shown to me twice in my dreams [a.k.a. sexual fantasies]. I beheld a man or angel carrying you in a silken cloth. He said to me, “She is yours, so uncover her.” And behold, it was you. I would then say to myself, “If this is from Allah, then it must happen.'"

Allah not only approved pedophilia, he insisted upon it. That makes the Islamic god as perverted as his prophet.

Since fifty-three-year-old pedophiles are not "prophet material," I want to give Islam every possible opportunity to clear this up. The next Hadith is from Aisha. Tabari VII:7 “There are special features in me that have not been in any woman except for what Allah bestowed on Maryam bt. Imran [She was referring to Mary, the mother of Jesus, although she didn’t know her name or her father’s name, and none of the “features” applied]. I do not say this to exalt myself over any of my companions.’ ‘What are these?’ someone asked. Aisha replied, ‘The angel brought down my likeness [she was a babe]; the Messenger married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine [she was abused]; he married me when I was a virgin, no other man having shared me with him [she was a child]; inspiration came to him when he and I were in a single blanket [she “inspired” him]; I was one of the dearest people to him; a verse of the Qur’an was revealed concerning me when the community was almost destroyed [she inspired Allah]; and I saw Gabriel when none of his other wives saw him [she lied].’”

Think about the implications of what she just said. Muhammad was “inspired”—a Qur’an surah was handed down while the prophet was having sex with a little girl. Allah didn’t find pedophilia the least bit troubling.

The following confirms that the first Muslims were consumed by greed, the prophet was inspired by the body of a child, and the circumstances surrounding Qur’an revelations were as perverted as the scripture itself.

Bukhari:V5B57N119 “The people used to send presents to the Prophet on the day of Aisha’s turn [to have sex with him]. Aisha said, ‘His other wives gathered in the apartment of Um Salama [wife number two] and said, “Um, the people send presents on the day of Aisha’s turn and we too, love the good presents just as much as she does. You should tell Allah’s Apostle to order the people to send their presents to him regardless of whose turn it may be.” Um repeated that to the Prophet and he turned away from her. When the Prophet returned to Um, she repeated the request again. The Prophet again turned away. After the third time, the Prophet said, “Um, don’t trouble me by harming Aisha, for by Allah, the Divine Inspiration [Qur’an surahs] never came to me while I was under the blanket of any woman among you except her.'"



I've never been on that website in my life. And I never placed it as my source either. I am getting this out of books, different resources, plus I own copies of all the Muslim books I can read it all myself.

AGAIN I DO NOT KNOW WHETHER THESE ARE YOUR INTERPRETATIONS OR THOSE YOU HAVE CULLED FROM SOMEWHERE. THERE IS AN IMPORTANT DISTINCTION. I LIKE TO READ WHAT A NUMBER OF PEOPLE SAY INCLUDING WHAT THE ISLAMIC CLERICS (NOT THE RADICALS ) HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THEIR OWN RELIGION. JUST AS I DIDN'T READ AN ANALYSIS OF THE TALMUD BY A CHRISTIAN OR A MUSLIM, I READ ONE WRITTEN BY A JEW.


so what the first muslims were consumed by greed. HOW is greed specific to muslims? Did not jesus throw a fit in a temple based on the premise of greed? Wasn't Moses a bit miffed at the Jews worshipping of false idols? So what. All religions go through their transitions.

If you read through that site, and I know you did not provide it Thermo did... and it is a very interesting one at that, because it records how with premeditation the christain missionaries went about slandering both the religion and the prophet, which is not an exclusive practice of the Christians either... BUT

before anyone goes off half cocked on smearing any religion I am of the belief one also needs to familiarize themselves with the mendacious attempts of all the religion high theologians all involveld for defensive purposes in slander each other. We speak of pediphilia so righteous and well uh have you NOTICED the catholic church of late?

Apparently all are guilty and all are innocent. I do not see where Islam per se when practiced within the appropriate context is any more or less bad or good than the other.

As to mentration. I have to find something for you. hang on.

And if you have all these different books that is dandy... provide your sources... you have to admit the informatoin on that site thermo provide does seem to offer valid rebutal to the slander I am sure it is not fully definitive because after all we are talking about religion but have you read the wacko polemic of the Christain dispensationalists, talking about radical?

[Larani]

so what the first muslims were consumed by greed. HOW is greed specific to muslims? Did not jesus throw a fit in a temple based on the premise of greed? Wasn't Moses a bit miffed at the Jews worshipping of false idols? So what. All religions go through their transitions.

So What? How can you even talk like that. Jesus tipped over a few tables accusing the priest of Greed and corruption and fleecing the populace of their wealth.. Moses broke his own bloody tablets. How can you compare their actions to those that would fly planes into building and blow up innocent people who might even support the bombers in their own way.

I can get angry but I sure don't blame people for my anger, I can even lose it and do stupid thing because of my anger but I still don't blame people for my actions I own up to them. Hell if I were Jesus I too would have gotten peeved and toppled the damn tables over. And I would have owned up to it and hell yeah I did it to make a point. but I wouldn't have blame the priest and said it was their fault I did it.

[Michele]

Here Michele listen to that,

Bukhari page 580: “Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its Pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah is made superior and He becomes the only God who may be worshiped. By Jihad Islam is propagated and made superior. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position. Their honour is lost, their lands are stolen, and Muslim rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape this duty dies as a hypocrite.”


If that isn't 3rd Reich, Thousand year domination propoganda what is it?

I am not arguing that the polemic doesn't exist but within what HISTORIC context? during the crusades I am convinced JIHAD WAS CALLED FOR WOULDN'T YOU THINK?

[logic85]

AGAIN I DO NOT KNOW WHETHER THESE ARE YOUR INTERPRETATIONS OR THOSE YOU HAVE CULLED FROM SOMEWHERE. THERE IS AN IMPORTANT DISTINCTION. I LIKE TO READ WHAT A NUMBER OF PEOPLE SAY INCLUDING WHAT THE ISLAMIC CLERICS (NOT THE RADICALS ) HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THEIR OWN RELIGION. JUST AS I DIDN'T READ AN ANALYSIS OF THE TALMUD BY A CHRISTIAN OR A MUSLIM, I READ ONE WRITTEN BY A JEW.

I gave you the quotes, in black and white. It's pretty obvious what they mean, look at them for crying out loud.

Apparently all are guilty and all are innocent. I do not see where Islam per se when practiced within the appropriate context is any more or less bad or good than the other.

You are completely wrong.

In the Gospels, killing is not an express ticket to heaven. Yahshua never asked his followers to “slay” anyone. Christ mentions killing only once. He tells a parable about a ruler in the final days of the Tribulation to encourage Christians to be productive, not destructive. In the Torah, God asked the Israelites to kill once, as well. He told Moses and Joshua to remove those poisoned by the Canaanite religion from the land. They were immoral, terrorizing, plundering, enslaving, and murdering. Their religion was as corrupt as Islam. God recognized it was more compassionate to exterminate some Canaanites than it was to allow them to seduce millions. He made the right call, but the Jews failed to execute his order. Let’s consider God's moral justification for fighting. Imagine that you were God and knew the thousand people most responsible for the September 11th suicide bombings. You know that they have been poisoned to believe that mass murder is a service to you. Left alone, they will corrupt and murder thousands. Would you kill them before they perpetrated these crimes or would you let them go ahead? Now move back in time to the dawn of the 20th century. As usual, the world is full of bad people and bad ideas, but two doctrines are especially lethal—Communism and Nazism. Because you’ve read their manifestoes and have maneuvered in time, you know what is going to happen. Within their first three decades, these dictatorial, intolerant, and violent dogmas will lead directly to the annihilation of over fifty million people and to the indoctrination of a billion more. Given the opportunity, would you exterminate a few thousand aspiring Communists and Nazis to save the lives of the fifty million their regimes butchered? Would you do it to save a billion people from being forced into submission—forced to live in civil, religious, intellectual, and economic poverty? Would you do it to keep them from growing strong enough to kill you, your neighbors, and your children? What is the most moral, just, and compassionate choice?

Perhaps now you know why Yahweh ordered his people to slay the people of a doctrine virtually identical to Islam. But don’t get carried away. His last command to kill was 3,200 years ago. His command wasn’t open ended. It was directed at a specific group of people, in a specific time and specific place. Apart from self defense, that’s the end of the story. So, when you hear Muslims defend their violent doctrine, saying that the Bible is equally warlike, you’ll know the truth. Yahweh asked once. He identified the reason and the people. The order wasn’t open ended, either. And, even if it were, there are no Canaanites to kick around. What’s more, the Jews were expressly forbidden from taking a spoil. When the walls of Jericho fell, its storehouses remained filled. Children were not sent off into slavery; women were not raped as if they were booty. The Judeo-Christian scriptures have to be corrupted to inspire such horrible acts. Allah, by contrast, gave Muslims hundreds of commands to kill. His orders were open ended—surviving throughout time. And his intended victims were many: those who worshiped the one true God, many gods, or no gods at all. Allah especially hated Christians and Jews, ordering Muslims to fight them until they were “wiped out to the last.” This is fundamental Islam—the very core of Muhammad’s message.

That said, there is one Bible verse that appears to be both open ended and to encourage violence. As such, Psalm 149 became the rallying cry for the Crusades. In actuality it is prophetic, speaking of what’s called the “Tribulation,” and of the return of the Messiah. In the fashion of Hebrew poetry, the Psalm presents a series of nine couplets—pairs of phrases that say the same thing in different words.

[logic85]

Let’s review them. The first couplet speaks prophetically of the new millennium, of the church and saints: “Praise Yahweh. Sing unto Yahweh a fresh song, and sing his praise in the congregation of saints.” The second celebrates the end of the Tribulation, and the Messiah’s return: “Let Israel rejoice in Yahweh who made them, let the Children of Israel be joyful in their King.” Then, “Let them praise Yahweh’s character in dance, let them sing praises unto Yahweh with the tambourine and harp.” Speaking of the Messiah’s gift of salvation, the next reports: “For Yahweh is pleased with his people; He will glorify the meek with salvation.” The fifth couplet reveals: “Let the saints be joyful in this glorious honor; let them shout from their resting place.” At Christ’s return the souls of the saints will be raised from their graves.

A Catholic Pope misinterpreted the sixth verse to advance his personal agenda: “Let the exaltation of the Almighty be in their mouths, and a two-edged sword be in their open hand.” A two-edged sword is the Bible’s metaphor for divine judgment or rendering a godly verdict. That’s why it’s in an “open hand,” which could not wield an instrument of violence. Its pair in the couplet references the exalted words of the Almighty—suggesting an oral verdict, not a slashing weapon. The seventh pair proclaims: “To advance vengeance upon the nations and punishment upon the people.” This speaks to the final judgment of Yahweh on those who attack Israel during World War III, midway through the Tribulation. Interesting, in that the predicted Magog war against Israel is perpetrated entirely by Islamic states.

This is followed by: “To yoke kings together, bringing them forth, and those who are severe will be tied with iron twine.” In other words, following God’s verdict, the purveyors of false doctrines, those who are severe, will be restrained. The final couplet reveals: “To advance the verdict upon them, prescribed by the splendor of his saints. Praise Yahweh.” The entire Psalm is prophetic, speaking of the final judgment of nations following the Messiah’s return in power and glory. There is no command to fight or kill anyone.

Since Islam’s principle defense is to claim that Christians have performed no better, especially during the Crusades, I want to bring your attention to two incredibly important historical facts. First, Pope Benedict IV: he reigned in 1033 A.D., precisely 1,000 years after Christ’s resurrection. Benedict became like Muhammad, demonic, fixated on the occult, demented, delirious, and lascivious. The Church became corrupt, fixated on rituals, suppression, and money. With power-hungry men at the helm, it splintered, ultimately causing cleric and king to send men off on fool-hearty crusades.

The second historical fact is that the Crusaders weren’t Christians. They couldn’t have been. Four centuries had passed since the last sermon was given in a language common to the people of Europe. The first Bible to be printed in the vulgar tongue, John Wycliffe’s, wouldn’t find quill for another four centuries. To be a “Christian” one must know Christ. He could not have been known to the men who fought. They carried his symbols, nothing more.

[Larani]

I am not arguing that the polemic doesn't exist but within what HISTORIC context? during the crusades I am convinced JIHAD WAS CALLED FOR WOULDN'T YOU THINK?

Yes and lets take all things in historical context Wasn't the primary reason for the crusades the the Ottoman Empire. The world is not going to be ruled by a Caliphate. Any more then its gonna be ruled by Hitler and his ilk or Napoleon or Caesar or any other of these power hungry corrupt world dominating ideologies. There will be NO SUBMISSION. unless it is done freely with free will. And any any person who preaches otherwise is gonna end up on the other end of a Spear.. Sword... Gun... Tank...Nuclear Weapon.

History is replete with this it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out Force is met with force. And given mans modern weaponry that force is enough to blow up the world.. That is Revelation.. We will do it to ourselves because we simply haven't learned the obvious.

[Michele]

I gave you the quotes, in black and white. It's pretty obvious what they mean, look at them for crying out loud.



You are completely wrong.

In the Gospels, killing is not an express ticket to heaven. Yahshua never asked his followers to “slay” anyone. Christ mentions killing only once. He tells a parable about a ruler in the final days of the Tribulation to encourage Christians to be productive, not destructive. In the Torah, God asked the Israelites to kill once, as well. He told Moses and Joshua to remove those poisoned by the Canaanite religion from the land. They were immoral, terrorizing, plundering, enslaving, and murdering. Their religion was as corrupt as Islam. God recognized it was more compassionate to exterminate some Canaanites than it was to allow them to seduce millions. He made the right call, but the Jews failed to execute his order. Let’s consider God's moral justification for fighting. Imagine that you were God and knew the thousand people most responsible for the September 11th suicide bombings. You know that they have been poisoned to believe that mass murder is a service to you. Left alone, they will corrupt and murder thousands. Would you kill them before they perpetrated these crimes or would you let them go ahead? Now move back in time to the dawn of the 20th century. As usual, the world is full of bad people and bad ideas, but two doctrines are especially lethal—Communism and Nazism. Because you’ve read their manifestoes and have maneuvered in time, you know what is going to happen. Within their first three decades, these dictatorial, intolerant, and violent dogmas will lead directly to the annihilation of over fifty million people and to the indoctrination of a billion more. Given the opportunity, would you exterminate a few thousand aspiring Communists and Nazis to save the lives of the fifty million their regimes butchered? Would you do it to save a billion people from being forced into submission—forced to live in civil, religious, intellectual, and economic poverty? Would you do it to keep them from growing strong enough to kill you, your neighbors, and your children? What is the most moral, just, and compassionate choice?

Perhaps now you know why Yahweh ordered his people to slay the people of a doctrine virtually identical to Islam. But don’t get carried away. His last command to kill was 3,200 years ago. His command wasn’t open ended. It was directed at a specific group of people, in a specific time and specific place. Apart from self defense, that’s the end of the story. So, when you hear Muslims defend their violent doctrine, saying that the Bible is equally warlike, you’ll know the truth. Yahweh asked once. He identified the reason and the people. The order wasn’t open ended, either. And, even if it were, there are no Canaanites to kick around. What’s more, the Jews were expressly forbidden from taking a spoil. When the walls of Jericho fell, its storehouses remained filled. Children were not sent off into slavery; women were not raped as if they were booty. The Judeo-Christian scriptures have to be corrupted to inspire such horrible acts. Allah, by contrast, gave Muslims hundreds of commands to kill. His orders were open ended—surviving throughout time. And his intended victims were many: those who worshiped the one true God, many gods, or no gods at all. Allah especially hated Christians and Jews, ordering Muslims to fight them until they were “wiped out to the last.” This is fundamental Islam—the very core of Muhammad’s message.

That said, there is one Bible verse that appears to be both open ended and to encourage violence. As such, Psalm 149 became the rallying cry for the Crusades. In actuality it is prophetic, speaking of what’s called the “Tribulation,” and of the return of the Messiah. In the fashion of Hebrew poetry, the Psalm presents a series of nine couplets—pairs of phrases that say the same thing in different words.

AND ACCORDING TO WHAT I HAVE READ NEITHER IS IT AN EXPRESS ticket to heaven ACCORDING TO THE PROPHET.

HERE ARE VERSUS WITH REGARD TO SUICIDE. I am under the impression that the invocations of death are being made by the Islamist radicals who are misrepresenting Islam. You didn't read that article that both larani and I placed in this thread did you?

Believe what you wish. Until it is proven to me otherwise, or I come across it in my own reading, I still feel you are not making the appropriate distinctions.

For the record Larani, I am not sure you picked up the distinction that was made in that article, and I can not understand why not, for it was a really thorough analysis of the radical islamist ideologue even to the degree that Paz points out how it also utlizes prophecy... which if we hold Islam responsible we must certainly hold Judeo christainity responsible for the whole religious prophecy polemic IS A DEATH CULT, as far as I am concerned.

but my point is I agree with you that their desire to go back to the caliphates is truly insanity and I have read some analysis by religious Muslim feminists that will agree on this as well. All I am arguing here is that the radical islamist polemic that is the greatest threat in the very way Paz explains is a distorted splinter of Islam in the very same way an active aryan nation cell is if it relies upon christian verse . In fact if you really read that article these Islamist radicals ALQ being the head of the pack are as much a threat to the Middle Eastern governments as they are to Europe and the western world... They are professing to turn back time in a way that no legitimate Muslim government is.

It is all in the article.

[Michele]

It is clear to me people will believe only what suits them... I placed these quotes on suicide in the other thread in the Int'l forum...

Mohammed did not preach suicide and it does not hold any place for anyone in heaven. The islamists are warping the koran as well as Islamic and Judeo christian prophecy to suit their agenda...

here are the quotes:

SUICIDE

God is our creator, he is the giver of life, and he alone has the right to end it. Suicide is forbidden in Islam; this sin is listed among the "enormities" in Reliance of the Traveller, a manual of Sharia in the tradition of Imam Shafi'i.

On the other hand, "suicide bombers" are celebrated as martyrs.

* to be roasted in a fire,
Do not kill yourselves, for Allah is compassionate towards you. Whoever does so, in transgression and wrongfully, We shall roast in a fire, and that is an easy matter for Allah. (an-Nisaa 4:29-30)

* forbidden Paradise,
Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak:
The Prophet said, "Whoever intentionally swears falsely by a religion other than Islam, then he is what he has said, (e.g. if he says, 'If such thing is not true then I am a Jew,' he is really a Jew). And whoever commits suicide with piece of iron will be punished with the same piece of iron in the Hell Fire." Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, "A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him." (Sahih Bukhari 2.445)

* will be punished in hell by whatever used for suicide,
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire." (Sahih Bukhari 2.446, 2.445)

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Index/S/suicide.html

[Larani]

For the record Larani, I am not sure you picked up the distinction that was made in that article, and I can not understand why not, for it was a really thorough analysis of the radical islamist ideologue even to the degree that Paz points out how it also utlizes prophecy... which if we hold Islam responsible we must certainly hold Judeo christainity responsible for the whole religious prophecy polemic IS A DEATH CULT, as far as I am concerned.

I understood it that is why I put the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of Muslims to lock these guys up in an insane asylim. Kafirs cannot do it for if we do as you said we will only feed the fire thus making more radicals. And this as history has shown is replete with it gonna turn into one hell of a Bloody World War.


but my point is I agree with you that their desire to go back to the caliphates is truly insanity and I have read some analysis by religious Muslim feminists that will agree on this as well. All I am arguing here is that the radical islamist polemic that is the greatest threat in the very way Paz explains is a distorted splinter of Islam in the very same way an active aryan nation cell is if it relies upon christian verse . In fact if you really read that article these Islamist radicals ALQ being the head of the pack are as much a threat to the Middle Eastern governments as they are to Europe and the western world... They are professing to turn back time in a way that no legitimate Muslim government is.

Screw OBL... he is nothing go into many Madrassas and listen to what their teaching the young kids in Pakinstan and in Malaysia. Lock these radicals up and shut them down. Muslims have got to take repsonsibility for what these guys are doing with thier faith.. And if it requires a war within the Muslim community to do it then so be it. Better Muslims fighting Muslims then the whole damn world dragged into it wouldn't you agree.

Here in the states we got some pretty radical Christain preachers and yeah we got the Ayran Nations too but we not only keeping a eye on them we take them to task and sue their them for all their worth when they get out of line.

[Larani]

It is clear to me people will believe only what suits them... I placed these quotes on suicide in the other thread in the Int'l forum...

Mohammed did not preach suicide and it does not hold any place for anyone in heaven. The islamists are warping the koran as well as Islamic and Judeo christian prophecy to suit their agenda...

Michele who are you trying to convince? Kafirs I don't think we are the ones who need convincing. I think the people who need convincing are within the Muslim Community.

I know this is simplistic but think of it this way. If a group of Republicans stared preaching that Democrats need to be killed and suicide bombings at abortion clinics were the way to go. It would rest more on the shoulders of fellow Republicans to stop these maniacs then it would for democrats who in the maniacs eyes were then enemy and thus and thing they said and did was suspect and without merit anyway.

[logic85]

AND ACCORDING TO WHAT I HAVE READ NEITHER IS IT AN EXPRESS ticket to heaven ACCORDING TO THE PROPHET.

Okay I'll have to give you more quotes to express this point...

Muslim:C31B20N4645 “The Prophet said: ‘Whoever cheerfully accepts Allah as his Lord, Islam as his Religion and Muhammad as his Apostle is necessarily entitled to enter Paradise.’ Abu wondered at it and said: ‘Messenger of Allah, repeat that for me.’ He did that and said: ‘There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth.’ Abu said: ‘What is that act?’ He replied: ‘Jihad in the Way of Allah! Jihad in Allah’s Cause!’”

Bukhari V4B53N386: “Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.”

Muslim C41B20N4678: “Jabir said that a man said, ‘Messenger of Allah, where shall I be if I am killed?’ He replied: ‘In Paradise.’ The man threw away the dates he had in his hand and fought until he was killed.”

Muslim:C41B20N4681 “Abdallah heard it from his father who, while facing the enemy, reported that the Messenger said: ‘Surely, the gates of Paradise are under the shadows of the swords.’ A man in a shabby condition got up and said: ‘Abu, did you hear the Prophet say this?’ He said: ‘Yes.’ He returned to his friends and said: ‘I greet you (a farewell greeting).’ Then he broke the sheath of his sword, threw it away, advanced with his (naked) sword towards the enemy and fought with it until he was slain.”

Bukhari: V5B59N377 “A man came to the Prophet and said, ‘Can you tell me where I will go if I get martyred?’ The Prophet replied, ‘To Paradise.’ The man fought till he was martyred.”

Bukhari:V4B52N72 “The Prophet said, ‘Nobody who enters Paradise likes to go back to the world even if he got everything on the earth, except a Mujahid [Islamic fighter] who wishes to return so that he may be martyred ten times because of the dignity he receives.’ Our Prophet told us about the message of Allah: ‘Whoever among us is killed will go to Paradise.’ Umar asked the Prophet, ‘Is it not true that our men who are killed will go to Paradise and those of the Pagan’s will go to Hell?’ The Prophet said, ‘Yes.’”

Are they enough? Or do you want more?

As for your suicide quotes..yes you cannot commit suicide..but as my quotes show, if you are going to die for Allah's cause, then it's okay - you'll even be rewarded for it.

[Michele]

Yes and lets take all things in historical context Wasn't the primary reason for the crusades the the Ottoman Empire. The world is not going to be ruled by a Caliphate. Any more then its gonna be ruled by Hitler and his ilk or Napoleon or Caesar or any other of these power hungry corrupt world dominating ideologies. There will be NO SUBMISSION. unless it is done freely with free will. And any any person who preaches otherwise is gonna end up on the other end of a Spear.. Sword... Gun... Tank...Nuclear Weapon.

History is replete with this it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out Force is met with force. And given mans modern weaponry that force is enough to blow up the world.. That is Revelation.. We will do it to ourselves because we simply haven't learned the obvious.

please don't misunderstand. I am a pacifist. I am only attempting to interpret everything within its context. at the time of those writings about Jihad --- defensive action was called for due to the crusades.

today the radical islamists are invoking that time period as Bush pushed the crusade button, I feel with full knowledge that the word itself would resinate in just the way it has throughout the Muslim World. All Muslims nor Arabs are going to accept Jihad on the terms or the polemic drawn out by the idealogue of ALQ...(most will not) however the article does stress their Polemic does have its persuasion and that is indeed problematic.

For me I believe in the most idealistic sense in the benefits of turning the other cheek. But you will notice America did not do that in response to 9/11, and if you follow the article with regard to the fluidity of the cells, while at that time perhaps bombing Afghanistan was warranted (and this is debatable as well), invading Iraq on the bases of fighting terrorism was a completely sham.

in fact if one does not deny many of the points within that article, combating this threat by bombing countries is almost ignorant as it plays right into the hand of the propaganda the radicals are utilizing for their recruitment. The point is the cells are spread out countryless yet multinational.

[logic85]

AND ACCORDING TO WHAT I HAVE READ NEITHER IS IT AN EXPRESS ticket to heaven ACCORDING TO THE PROPHET.


Okay I'll have to give you more quotes to express this point...

Muslim:C31B20N4645 “The Prophet said: ‘Whoever cheerfully accepts Allah as his Lord, Islam as his Religion and Muhammad as his Apostle is necessarily entitled to enter Paradise.’ Abu wondered at it and said: ‘Messenger of Allah, repeat that for me.’ He did that and said: ‘There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth.’ Abu said: ‘What is that act?’ He replied: ‘Jihad in the Way of Allah! Jihad in Allah’s Cause!’”

Bukhari V4B53N386: “Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.”

Muslim C41B20N4678: “Jabir said that a man said, ‘Messenger of Allah, where shall I be if I am killed?’ He replied: ‘In Paradise.’ The man threw away the dates he had in his hand and fought until he was killed.”

Muslim:C41B20N4681 “Abdallah heard it from his father who, while facing the enemy, reported that the Messenger said: ‘Surely, the gates of Paradise are under the shadows of the swords.’ A man in a shabby condition got up and said: ‘Abu, did you hear the Prophet say this?’ He said: ‘Yes.’ He returned to his friends and said: ‘I greet you (a farewell greeting).’ Then he broke the sheath of his sword, threw it away, advanced with his (naked) sword towards the enemy and fought with it until he was slain.”

Bukhari: V5B59N377 “A man came to the Prophet and said, ‘Can you tell me where I will go if I get martyred?’ The Prophet replied, ‘To Paradise.’ The man fought till he was martyred.”

Bukhari:V4B52N72 “The Prophet said, ‘Nobody who enters Paradise likes to go back to the world even if he got everything on the earth, except a Mujahid [Islamic fighter] who wishes to return so that he may be martyred ten times because of the dignity he receives.’ Our Prophet told us about the message of Allah: ‘Whoever among us is killed will go to Paradise.’ Umar asked the Prophet, ‘Is it not true that our men who are killed will go to Paradise and those of the Pagan’s will go to Hell?’ The Prophet said, ‘Yes.’”

Are they enough? Or do you want more?

As for your suicide quotes..yes you cannot commit suicide..but as my quotes show, if you are going to die for Allah's cause, then it's okay - you'll even be rewarded for it.

[Michele]

I do not understand what did you need to prove to you beyond a doubt. That Islamist were hijacking at using every available scripture from the Koran to push and indoctrinate Muslims to their cause. I thought that was common knowledge. Hitler used Mein Kampf on the young German youth and his supporters same crap different day.

we are not understanding each other. what I need proven to me is that Islam is the culprit. For I do not yet believe it is. logic 85 can quote me all the quotes from the koran as he wishes... that doesn't mean those that practice Islam (not the radicals) will take up Jihad, nor does it mean all that practice Islam will preach Jihad. Which is pointed out in so many words in the article. with the addendum that there the radical polemic does have itsel influence on the younger generation.. this generation not necessarily versed in a true practice of Islam.

It was I that was ALWAYS asserting that the radicals were pulling this stuff out of context itn he very same way logic85 is doing. We can also pull christian verse out of context and arrive at a call for holy war as invoked by God as well.


Hell look at the posts being presented by the Kafirs. Is it any wonder they get nervous reading them and knowing full well that there are many guys out there using this Dogma to place them the Kafir's in a obvious hostile position and the only out for the Kafir's is conversion.

of course they would get nervous but the point is they are being pulled out of context and there for it is not the Koran per se that is the issue, but the new revised manifestos as cited in that article that are the culprit... for those new to Islam even Arabs, that are susceptible or vulnerable to the polemic they are led to believe these are the true interpretations of Islam under any circumstance.

Am I making sense or no.



I know for me reading Mein Kampf didn't make me all to comfortable because I sure wouldn't have fit into old Hitler establishment and world view.

mein kampf is not scripture IT IS A MANIFEST that twists whatever it needs to make hitlers polemic papable to whomever it was he wished to reach.



lets take all things in historical context Wasn't the primary reason for the crusades the the Ottoman Empire. The world is not going to be ruled by a Caliphate. Any more then its gonna be ruled by Hitler and his ilk or Napoleon or Caesar or any other of these power hungry corrupt world dominating ideologies. There will be NO SUBMISSION. unless it is done freely with free will. And any any person who preaches otherwise is gonna end up on the other end of a Spear.. Sword... Gun... Tank...Nuclear Weapon.


Right and ANYBODY also means the secular muslim countries or even religious muslim countries that will not embrace the islamists warped out manifests. They too will not be spared. And that is another reason why the polemic as composed by the Islamists is a departure from the koran itself and not respresentative of Islam.

Was mein kampf representative of Christianity. Are the dispensationalist representive of Christainity... Hell some of the christian intrepretations I have seen here on forum of verse, I don't feel are representative of Christianity as I know it, and sometime some of the interpretations I read here on forum are down right anti-Christ.


There was one other point I wanted to make... but I can't find your comment. Did you say the crusades began because of Child molestation?

[Larani]

please don't misunderstand. I am a pacifist. I am only attempting to interpret everything within its context. at the time of those writings about Jihad --- defensive action was called for due to the crusades.

And I say again.. Most of the crusades wre a direct retaliation too the Ottoman Empires Expansion.. Hell they reached Madrid and wouldn't have stopped even if they got to London. If Muslims want Jihad I say let them turn their Jihad on themselves before the rest of the world get dragged into it.




today the radical islamists are invoking that time period as Bush pushed the crusade button, I feel with full knowledge that the word itself would resinate in just the way it has throughout the Muslim World. All Muslims nor Arabs are going to accept Jihad on the terms or the polemic drawn out by the idealogue of ALQ...(most will not) however the article does stress their Polemic does have its persuasion and that is indeed problematic.

Excuse me Chronology please.. Was this after Embassy Bombings, Cole, and 9/11. As I have said this thing with these Islamsist if thats what were calling them is already probably past the no return point I don't even know if Muslims can stop them anymore. As long as these guys want an Empire Dominating the World with Islam. Wanting it run by a Caliphate ect ect and the whole Muslims community that actually doesn't believe in that doesn't do anything about it. The Muslim Community will go the way of Germany under Hitler and well then its gonna become a Axis and Allies battle the likes we have never seen.


For me I believe in the most idealistic sense in the benefits of turning the other cheek. But you will notice America did not do that in response to 9/11, and if you follow the article with regard to the fluidity of the cells, while at that time perhaps bombing Afghanistan was warranted (and this is debatable as well), invading Iraq on the bases of fighting terrorism was a completely sham.

Turn the Cheek after 9/11 what about the Cole what about the embassy bombings what about Kobar Towers hello how many cheeks do you think Americans have? Americans and like many other Kafir Nations just want to do buisness with the Middle East and these guys want to blow us up for that.

[QUOTE=Michele]
in fact if one does not deny many of the points within that article, combating this threat by bombing countries is almost ignorant as it plays right into the hand of the propaganda the radicals are utilizing for their recruitment. The point is the cells are spread out countryless yet multinational.

Agreed so why don't Muslims start doing some of their your own bombing and request us to just sit back and watch them clean up the mess. But if you think the western world is gonna sit back and take it on the cheek one after the other expecially a dirty bomb attack then your expectations of the western world are a little misplaced I think. Pearl Harbor would prove that.

[Larani]

There was one other point I wanted to make... but I can't find your comment. Did you say the crusades began because of Child molestation?

No and I agree with you on that one that is a cultural thing. These guys trying to apply 20th century rulings such as Child Molestation on a those verses are wrong in my opinion just as they would be if they tried imposes their Puritan ideals on the Zoi tribes of the Amazon for living a life without clothing. Ridiculous in my opinion simply ridiculous.

Clearly because culture validated it and approved of it. That girl even at 9 would suffer no mental or psychological effect of her young marriage. She would be accepted and from her perspective all would be right in the world.

[Michele]

Agreed so why don't Muslims start doing some of their your own bombing and request us to just sit back and watch them clean up the mess. But if you think the western world is gonna sit back and take it on the cheek one after the other expecially a dirty bomb attack then your expectations of the western world are a little misplaced I think. Pearl Harbor would prove that.

did you miss the part about Egypt having been cracking down on the muslim brotherhood since its inception? Egypt is not going to bomb itself. They did send out an alert on ALQ over a decade or more ago... you must have missed that part. In fact Nasser cracked down violently on any resistance that was violently reactionary post ottoman defeat and post zionist invasion and expulsion of 750,000 palestinians to say nothing of the massacres that are still denied. Which is why those in the Muslim Brotherhood attempted to assassinate Nasser... they did Assassinate Sadat for making peace with Israel. This is a point that I feel you are missing. The Islamists have clearly turned the jihad on their own.... ALQ and all of its splinter groups are ANTI-GOVERNMENT GROUPS. Egypt is certainly not going to fight the brotherhood by bombing themselves. They did wish al Zawahiri extridited by Europe so that Egypt could put him to death in the nineties... Europe ignored Egypt. I provided you that link twice now. Did you not read it.

As for ottoman rule well you know Arabs were also conquested by ottoman rule and many lived as peasants so how are you equating ottoman rule with Islam? And the carnage exacted by the crusades you are justifying entirely?

[Michele]

and in addition larani. I have never argued the US should sit back and take it on the cheek... you have misunderstood my arguments entirely... I only say the problem needs to be understood in its specifics and combatted based on a finite understanding not some WWII ariel strategy wherein we inadvertenlty bomb any countrie based on agendas that have NOTHING to do with combatting the problem

I have been arguing that when EYGYPT POINTED THE PROBLEM OUT WELL BEFORE IT WAS AS ESCALATED AS IT IS NOW WHY THE **** WERE THEY IGNORED? WHEN THE SUDANESE OFFERED US THEIR DOSSIER ON ALQ WAY BACK IN THE EARLY NINETIES WHY DID THE CIA TURN ITS NOSE UP AT IT... THEY REFUSED THE INFORMATION... THE SUDANESE GOVERNMENT NEVER UNDERSTOOD WHY THAT WAS.

DO YOU WANT THAT LINK AGAIN? MAYBE THIS TIME YOU WILL READ IT?

[Larani]

did you miss the part about Egypt having been cracking down on the muslim brotherhood since its inception? Egypt is not going to bomb itself. They did send out an alert on ALQ over a decade or more ago... you must have missed that part. In fact Nasser cracked down violently on any resistance that was violently reactionary post ottoman defeat and post zionist invasion and expulsion of 750,000 palestinians to say nothing of the massacres that are still denied. Which is why those in the Muslim Brotherhood attempted to assassinate Nasser... they did Assassinate Sadat for making peace with Israel. This is a point that I feel you are missing. The Islamists have clearly turned the jihad on their own.... ALQ and all of its splinter groups are ANTI-GOVERNMENT GROUPS. Egypt is certainly not going to fight the brotherhood by bombing themselves. They did wish al Zawahiri extridited by Europe so that Egypt could put him to death in the nineties... Europe ignored Egypt. I provided you that link twice now. Did you not read it.

Yes I read it and I know what actions have been taken by Egypt and the Saudi's ect. But they need to do more. They need to get the Mullahs to get on those load speakers 5 times a day and say this is wrong these guys need to be brought in they are a disgrace to Islam. They need to send spies into all Madrassas and if any of them are distorting the Koran they need to lose thier funding or be shut down. OBL, ALQ, or any group like them are a Muslim Problem and ought to be dealt with By Muslims. If Muslims want help fine I am for giving them help, but Dammit I want America off the head of the spear, but I don't see that changing becuase well honestly I don't think the Majority of Muslims really want to see the like of OBL or ALQ or any other group like him stop. I think Muslims are just like the average German during Hitlers coming to power. All his rhetoric sounded pretty damn good if you were a German screw the rest of the world and I think that is just what I think Muslims are doing now. OBL rhetoric sounds pretty damn good if your a Muslim screw the rest of the world.


As for ottoman rule well you know Arabs were also conquested by ottoman rule and many lived as peasants so who are you equating ottoman rule with Islam? And the carnage exacted by the crusades you are justifying entirely?

The Ottomans are one of the greatest and most powerful civilizations of the modern period. Their moment of glory in the sixteenth century represents one of the heights of human creativity, optimism, and artistry. The empire they built was the largest and most influential of the Muslim empires of the modern period, and their culture and military expansion crossed over into Europe. Not since the expansion of Islam into Spain in the eighth century had Islam seemed poised to establish a European presence as it did in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. Like that earlier expansion, the Ottomans established an empire over European territory and established Islamic traditions and culture that last to the current day (the Muslims in Bosnia are the last descendants of the Ottoman presence in Europe).

[logic85]

we are not understanding each other. what I need proven to me is that Islam is the culprit.

You think that terrorism is not condoned by Islam? That terrorists have corrupted an otherwise peaceful religion? Consider this. The world’s foremost authority on the Qur’an is Sheik Abdel Rahman. He was the senior professor of Qur’anic studies at Islam’s most prestigious university, Al-Azhar, in Cairo. Today, the sheik is a convicted terrorist, serving time in an American prison for the ’93 bombing of the World Trade Center. If the Qur’an encourages peace, that’s hard to explain.

Don’t you suppose that the Chechen Muslims who laid siege to the Moscow theater shared something with those who bombed the Bali nightclub and the Kenyan hotel? Don’t you think there might be a connection between the sniper Muhammad and the prophet Muhammad? Could the suicide bombers in Israel have the same spiritual leader as the suicide bombers of 9/11? Why have Islamic terrorists in Iraq killed more Americans than the Republican Guard? Where do you suppose these Muslim militants get their marching orders? Might al-Qaeda, Jemaah Islamiyah, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Taliban be following the same prophet?

logic 85 can quote me all the quotes from the koran as he wishes... that doesn't me those that are practice Islam (not the radicals) will take up Jihad.

Well according to the Qur'an those who pratice Jihad are "good" Muslims:

Qur’an 8:73 “The infidels aid one another. Unless you do the same there will be anarchy in the land. Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause are good Muslims.”

And the "bad" Muslims:

Qur’an 8:55 “Verily the worst of creatures, the vilest of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him and will not believe. They are those with whom you make an agreement, but they break their covenant every time, and they keep not their duty [to fight].”

To sum it up:

Bukhari V9B92N384: “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Whoever obeys me will enter Paradise, and whoever disobeys me will not.’”

[Michele]

and larani MIGHT I REMND YOU THAT ARTICLE WE ARE DISCUSSING, WHO WAS IT THAT PLACED IT ON THE FORUM INT HE FIRST PLACE ALONG WITH THREE OTHERS?

I SEEM TO REMEMBER IT WAS ME THAT HANDED YOU THAT ARTICLE. WHY? BECAUSE IT WAS A FAR SUPERIOR ARTICLE TO THAT PROPAGANDA PIECE WRITEN BY ALAN DERSHOWITZ WHO WILL ALSO INSIST ISLAM IS THE CULPRIT when I still argue IT IS NOT and there are many finite points that need to be factored as well.

I can not tell you just how many ALQ articles I have placed on this forum NO ONE READS THEM, they prefer all the jingoism instead.

[logic85]

we are not understanding each other. what I need proven to me is that Islam is the culprit.

You think that terrorism is not condoned by Islam? That terrorists have corrupted an otherwise peaceful religion? Consider this. The world’s foremost authority on the Qur’an is Sheik Abdel Rahman. He was the senior professor of Qur’anic studies at Islam’s most prestigious university, Al-Azhar, in Cairo. Today, the sheik is a convicted terrorist, serving time in an American prison for the ’93 bombing of the World Trade Center. If the Qur’an encourages peace, that’s hard to explain.

Don’t you suppose that the Chechen Muslims who laid siege to the Moscow theater shared something with those who bombed the Bali nightclub and the Kenyan hotel? Don’t you think there might be a connection between the sniper Muhammad and the prophet Muhammad? Could the suicide bombers in Israel have the same spiritual leader as the suicide bombers of 9/11? Why have Islamic terrorists in Iraq killed more Americans than the Republican Guard? Where do you suppose these Muslim militants get their marching orders? Might al-Qaeda, Jemaah Islamiyah, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Taliban be following the same prophet?

logic 85 can quote me all the quotes from the koran as he wishes... that doesn't me those that are practice Islam (not the radicals) will take up Jihad.

Well according to the Qur'an those who pratice Jihad are "good" Muslims:

Qur’an 8:73 “The infidels aid one another. Unless you do the same there will be anarchy in the land. Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause are good Muslims.”

And the "bad" Muslims:

Qur’an 8:55 “Verily the worst of creatures, the vilest of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him and will not believe. They are those with whom you make an agreement, but they break their covenant every time, and they keep not their duty [to fight].”

To sum it up:

Bukhari V9B92N384: “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Whoever obeys me will enter Paradise, and whoever disobeys me will not.’”

[Michele]

Yes I read it and I know what actions have been taken by Egypt and the Saudi's ect. But they need to do more. They need to get the Mullahs to get on those load speakers 5 times a day and say this is wrong these guys need to be brought in they are a disgrace to Islam. They need to send spies into all Madrassas and if any of them are distorting the Koran they need to lose thier funding or be shut down. OBL, ALQ, or any group like them are a Muslim Problem and ought to be dealt with By Muslims. If Muslims want help fine I am for giving them help, but Dammit I want America off the head of the spear, but I don't see that changing becuase well honestly I don't think the Majority of Muslims really want to see the like of OBL or ALQ or any other group like him stop. I think Muslims are just like the average German during Hitlers coming to power. All his rhetoric sounded pretty damn good if you were a German screw the rest of the world and I think that is just what I think Muslims are doing now. OBL rhetoric sounds pretty damn good if your a Muslim screw the rest of the world.


why do you keep missing the point? EGYPT CALLED FOR THE EXTRIDITION OF THE MASTERMIND OF ALQ... EUROPE IGNORED HIM... IF EUROPE HAD EXTRIDATED HIM WHEN THEY HAD THE CHANCE, EGYPT WOULD HAVE PUT THE MOTHER****ER TO DEATH... BUT INSTEAD THEY LET HIM MOVE FREELY THROUGHOUT EUROPE WHEREIN HE CAME TO THE US TWICE RAISING MONEY FOR HIS JIHAD WHICH ENDED UP IN THE BOMBING OF THE EGYPTIAN EMBASSY IN PAKISTAN. WHY DO YOU FEEL THEY ARE NOT DOING ENOUGH? EGYPT CERTAINLY HAS BEEN AT BATTLE WITH ALQ SINCE THE BEGINNING WHILE THE US WAS ARMING AND TRAINING ALQ SOLDIERS TO FIGHT THE RUSSIANS

WE CAN'T TAKE THE US OFF OF THE SPEAR. WE FED THE PROBLEM. WHY DO YOU WISH TO IGNORE THIS. YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY HAVE READ THE LINK I GAVE YOU.

AND AS FOR SAUDI ARABIA WELL ON 9/11 IN CASE YOU HAVEN'T HEARD THE BUSH PEOPLE FLEW THE SAUDI ROYALS OUT OF THE COUNTRY INCLUDING OBL'S BROTHER IN LAW. COME ON WAKE UP. YOU KEPT TELLIN ME TO WAKE UP AND YET YOU KEEP MISSING THE POINT THAT APPARENTLY WE DIDN'T THINK THE PROBLEM WAS AS URGENT AS THE EYGPTIANS INSISTED IT WAS.

AND BOMBING THE **** OUT OF IRAQ IS NOT HELPING... we need to embrace help from the Arab world and those leaders that have finite expertise with combatting this problem, but it seems since the 1950's WE DO HAVE ANOTHER AGENDA THERE ENTIRELY WE WISH TO HAVE OUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO, IN ADDITION TO our neo con led agenda wishing instead to redraw the map of the ME based on another agenda entirely. We either fight the problem or we don't. Whcih is it?

Sorry for the caps. But it does not seem to me like you read the thread I am talking about.

here is the thread which I posted on 03-29-2004, 05:38 PM well before I handed you the same link in that thread FANATIC MUSLIMS in the US forum and then I believe I handed it to you again just the other day.
http://www.whistlestopper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8041

[Larani]

and in addition larani. I have never argued the US should sit back and take it on the cheek... you have misunderstood my arguments entirely... I only say the problem needs to be understood in its specifics and combatted based on a finite understanding not some WWII ariel strategy wherein we inadvertenlty bomb any countrie based on agendas that have NOTHING to do with combatting the problem

Michele even you cannot deny that more and more non-muslims are starting to paint with a broad brush. This is what I am talking about Back in the days of WWII all sorts or crazy *** banner and logos were made up to paint the Axis powers as evil and devilish, and I can tell you its happeneing again. Yeah I am gonna vote Bush out of office becuase he clearly is becoming to much of a problem with all his polar slurs and slants with evil this and evil that, but he is just a by-product of OBL and his kind and lets be honest their are a lot of OBL's . As long as these Islamist continue and long as they grow so to will their polar opposite grow here and all its gonna take to set it off is Just One Islamists with a real WMD weapon and the middle east is gonna get flatten just as Drezden and Berlin Did.


I have been arguing that when EYGYPT POINTED THE PROBLEM OUT WELL BEFORE IT WAS AS ESCALATED AS IT IS NOW WHY THE **** WERE THEY IGNORED? WHEN THE SUDANESE OFFERED US THEIR DOSSIER ON ALQ WAY BACK IN THE EARLY NINETIES WHY DID THE CIA TURN ITS NOSE UP AT IT... THEY REFUSED THE INFORMATION... THE SUDANESE GOVERNMENT NEVER UNDERSTOOD WHY THAT WAS.

Maybe because we have a democracy and when we change parties crap gets lost in the shuffle and then theres all the party politics crap that goes into it each side trying to make the other side look bad.

DO YOU WANT THAT LINK AGAIN? MAYBE THIS TIME YOU WILL READ IT?[/QUOTE]

[logic85]

Michele why have you not responded to my last post? Do you finally admit defeat over the issue?

[Michele]

Michele even you cannot deny that more and more non-muslims are starting to paint with a broad brush.


I am not sure what you mean by that.


This is what I am talking about Back in the days of WWII all sorts or crazy *** banner and logos were made up to paint the Axis powers as evil and devilish, and I can tell you its happeneing again. Yeah I am gonna vote Bush out of office becuase he clearly is becoming to much of a problem with all his polar slurs and slants with evil this and evil that, but he is just a by-product of OBL and his kind and lets be honest their are a lot