Two questions for theists...

[marv]

If you believe that your soul is eternal, where was it before you were born?

Before you die, because there are so many religions to choose from, are you sure you've chosen the right one?

[2ruballa]

If you believe that your soul is eternal, where was it before you were born?

Before you die, because there are so many religions to choose from, are you sure you've chosen the right one?

1. Good question.

Jeremiah 1:4 says "The LORD gave me a message. He said, "I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my spokesman to the world" "

The Bible says that God knew Jeremiah before God formed him in the womb.

2. Never have been more positive in my life.


A U.S. Marine Captain once said on tv during the Iraq war that there is no such thing as an athiest in a foxhole. The so called 'athiest' soldiers were hungry for the word of God after experiences in combat. The Captain made sure there were enough Bibles to go around. :)

[crawfish]

If you believe that your soul is eternal, where was it before you were born?

Ditto 2ruballa. I believe our souls are a part of a higher existence, that which is in God's image. Being eternal is not living forever; it's living outside of time, where time doesn't matter.

Before you die, because there are so many religions to choose from, are you sure you've chosen the right one?

To me, this is a far more complex question than it needs to be. The end result is you either choose God or reject him; most else is irrelevant. More is expected of those that grew up with knowledge of God and Christ, less for those who had very little or no exposure. God judges, but his judgement is relative.

[logic85]

To me, this is a far more complex question than it needs to be. The end result is you either choose God or reject him; most else is irrelevant. More is expected of those that grew up with knowledge of God and Christ, less for those who had very little or no exposure. God judges, but his judgement is relative.

Not if Allah is the true God...

Bukhari V9B84N59: “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.”

Qur’an 4:168: “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”

Qur’an 4:114: “He who disobeys the Apostle after guidance has been revealed will burn in Hell.”

Bukhari V4B52N260: “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.”

Qur’an 48:13: “If any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared a Blazing Fire for them!”

Qur’an 18:103 “Say: ‘Shall we inform you of who will be the greatest losers? …Those that reject my Revelations… Hell is their reward, because they rejected Islam, and took my proofs, verses, and lessons, and those of My Messengers by way of jest in mockery.”

Ishaq 363: “Say to those who do not believe you: ‘You will be vanquished and gathered into Hell, an evil resting place.”

Qur’an 3:85: “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (Surrender), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who are losers.”

[Duo_Maxwell]

If you believe that your soul is eternal, where was it before you were born?

In a huge ball of energy. All souls reform into a single entity, which gives up a mix of energy, a mix of former souls to new beings.


Before you die, because there are so many religions to choose from, are you sure you've chosen the right one?

Not a chance in hell I know it's the right one. But the best we can do is hope and do what you feel is right, not what the church tells you is right.

[earth]

If you believe that your soul is eternal, where was it before you were born?

Before you die, because there are so many religions to choose from, are you sure you've chosen the right one?

I personally believe in the Jewish aspect of this. I think it's all cyclical. My soul has been used thousands of times before me. It will be used thousands of times after I've turned to dust.

[MrAmerica]

If you believe that your soul is eternal, where was it before you were born?
Although many Christians believe that when you die, your soul leaves the body and goes to heaven or hell, that is not really what the bible teaches. Nor does it teach that our souls existed prior to being born. The bible teaches that immortality will not be imparted until Jesus returns (1 Corinthians 15:51-54). No one will be cast into hell until the end of the world. "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev. 20:14, 15. Note that anyone cast into hell is cast in at the same time that the devil and death itself are destroyed.
In the bible, death is refered to 52 times as a "sleep." Jesus, Moses, Enoch and Elijah are the only ones who are explicitly described as having gone to heaven yet (although there may be others), and they are all physically alive and complete with their bodies.

The word for "soul" in the original Hebrew of the bible is "Nephesh". The word Nephesh means "life", or "a living being." Even animals and the fish in the sea are refered to as "Nephesh." And for those of you who say emotions are no indication of spirituality because even dogs can love; The bible says that there will be animals in the New Earth (heaven) Isaiah 65:25.

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man BECAME a living soul (nephesh)." Gen. 2:7. Here we have a biblical formula for a soul. Body + God's breath (Spirit) = A Soul. It can be compared to a light bulb. A glass filiment (body) + electricity (spirit) = light (soul). The light bulb is not the light, nor can the light exist separately from the bulb. The bible teaches that humans will be resurrected bodily. As the Creator, God knows each of our DNA, and can reproduce us just like a copier can reproduce an image. "Heaven" will be here on this earth when it is remade free from sin. "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away. Then He who sat on the throne said, 'Behold, I make all things new.'" Rev. 21:1-5.
"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind...They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit." Isaiah 65:17-21.

Before you die, because there are so many religions to choose from, are you sure you've chosen the right one?
I did not choose my faith by emotion, or like shooting fish in a barrel. I did a lot of study and comparrison. My reasons would fill up several posts, so if anyone wants to know my reasons for being sure, they can find it explained in a concise and thorough summary of several topics at this website:
http://www.amazingfacts.org/
I would especially recommend this sub-link, for what I considered to be "proof."
http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=668&x=27&y=23 :angel:

[Fasdf]

1. Good question.

Jeremiah 1:4 says "The LORD gave me a message. He said, "I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my spokesman to the world" "

The Bible says that God knew Jeremiah before God formed him in the womb.

Good answer. However, how much do you remember before you were conceived by your mother and father? Or when you were a baby? So what's to suggest you'll be conscious at all when you die? Supposing you 'existed' before you were born, how will that be any different from 'existing' after you die? When you die, everyone you knew will still 'know' who you are, but that doesn't make anything different supposing your existence just blew up into bolivian.

[Platypus]

If you believe that your soul is eternal, where was it before you were born?
This isn't a theist/deist question, exactly, so maybe I can answer too. I believe the "standard" answer would be that one's soul has existed since the instant of creation, but was in a suspended state until the moment of conception or birth. After all, an omniscient God would have known all along how many were needed.
Before you die, because there are so many religions to choose from, are you sure you've chosen the right one?
Religion is about faith which, by definition, is separate from empirical or rational proof. Therefore it allows certainty without what would be considered a reason in the scientific sense.

[Tell me why]

In Christian Theology there is a thing called "the well of souls". It is where we are before we are born.

The reason that I am a Christian is that I believe in Forgiveness. I believe Forgiveness is Divine. It comes from God, and is the entire purpose for Christ.

[MrAmerica]

In Christian Theology there is a thing called "the well of souls". It is where we are before we are born.

The reason that I am a Christian is that I believe in Forgiveness. I believe Forgiveness is Divine. It comes from God, and is the entire purpose for Christ.

There is nothing in the bible about a "Well of Souls".

Purgatory is also a part of "Christian" Theology (Catholic), but there is nothing in the bible about it either.

All Christian teaching stems from the bible, so if it is not in the bible, it is probably a tradition of pagan origin.

[Fasdf]

There is nothing in the bible about a "Well of Souls".

Purgatory is also a part of "Christian" Theology (Catholic), but there is nothing in the bible about it either.

All Christian teaching stems from the bible, so if it is not in the bible, it is probably a tradition of pagan origin.
Aw, so a divine comedy could just be about pagans?

[cpwill]

If you believe that your soul is eternal, where was it before you were born?

n/a, eternity exists outside of the temporal world.

Before you die, because there are so many religions to choose from, are you sure you've chosen the right one?

even if i wasn't, i've got an assurance from a pretty dang good source:D

[Craig]

All Christian teaching stems from the bible, so if it is not in the bible, it is probably a tradition of pagan origin.

Not necessarily Mr. America. Many of the ideas in the Christian theological tradition arose from thinkers and scholars who felt parts of the Bible were inconsistent, unclear, or who felt it was necessary to expand upon Biblical teachings. We can take St. Augustine of Hippo as an example; his influential writing known as The City of God had a great effect upon the Christian faith. Whether or not their writings are heretical is a matter of debate, but they certainly were considered by their contemporaries and themselves as Christians, not pagans.

[MrAmerica]

Not necessarily Mr. America. Many of the ideas in the Christian theological tradition arose from thinkers and scholars who felt parts of the Bible were inconsistent, unclear, or who felt it was necessary to expand upon Biblical teachings. We can take St. Augustine of Hippo as an example; his influential writing known as The City of God had a great effect upon the Christian faith. Whether or not their writings are heretical is a matter of debate, but they certainly were considered by their contemporaries and themselves as Christians, not pagans.

Without the bible these "thinkers" and "scholars" wouldn't have a religion to tweek. Without the bible there wouldn't be a St. Augustine or a church, at all.

It is interesting that so many scholars (such as the Jesus seminar) feel that the scriptures are not sufficient. They need to make their own religion, but they don't have enough original ideas of their own so they make it a smorgasborg religion of Christianity. Take what you want, and leave the rest. And since there is so much scripture that they want to discard, it leaves plenty of room for them to make up their own doctrines, as if they were there when Christ lived.

Anyone can start a tradition. If you get enough people to practice it, and pass it along for enough time, it becomes seemingly sacred. But where do you draw the line, and how do you know what is eroneous and what is not? The scriptures are a measuring rod, they are the standard by which we should measure all doctrine.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Tim. 3:16, 17.

"To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

"You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." Deut. 4:2

"If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life..." Rev. 22:18, 19

[MikeD4o7]

Without the bible these "thinkers" and "scholars" wouldn't have a religion to tweek. Without the bible there wouldn't be a St. Augustine or a church, at all.

It is interesting that so many scholars (such as the Jesus seminar) feel that the scriptures are not sufficient. They need to make their own religion, but they don't have enough original ideas of their own so they make it a smorgasborg religion of Christianity. Take what you want, and leave the rest. And since there is so much scripture that they want to discard, it leaves plenty of room for them to make up their own doctrines, as if they were there when Christ lived.

Anyone can start a tradition. If you get enough people to practice it, and pass it along for enough time, it becomes seemingly sacred. But where do you draw the line, and how do you know what is eroneous and what is not? The scriptures are a measuring rod, they are the standard by which we should measure all doctrine.


It's always seemed to me that every Bible follower more or less makes up their own religion. It seems to me as if everyone discards certain parts of the Bible and exalts others. If it's all from God, it seems as if it should all be equally important... but very few people follow the "blue laws" of the Bible. Very few people pay any attention to the condemnation of witches or of eating crustaceans. Very few would have anything positive to say about a man in modern, urban America that tried to kill his son because God told him to... but luckily stopped right before he could do it when God told him he was just testing him.

It has always seemed to me that whatever people have felt themselves was right or wrong, significant or insignificant.. they would automatically project that into their religion. Most christians today will tell you that it's the New Testament where all of the really important stuff is... yet when you question them about their personal values... you'll still see that the "justice" of the Old Testament is more highly regarded than turning the other cheek as Jesus taught.

[cpwill]

eh, don't mistake recognizing an action as wrong as not being willing to forgive it.

[Craig]

Without the bible these "thinkers" and "scholars" wouldn't have a religion to tweek. Without the bible there wouldn't be a St. Augustine or a church, at all.

It is interesting that so many scholars (such as the Jesus seminar) feel that the scriptures are not sufficient. They need to make their own religion, but they don't have enough original ideas of their own so they make it a smorgasborg religion of Christianity. Take what you want, and leave the rest. And since there is so much scripture that they want to discard, it leaves plenty of room for them to make up their own doctrines, as if they were there when Christ lived.

Anyone can start a tradition. If you get enough people to practice it, and pass it along for enough time, it becomes seemingly sacred. But where do you draw the line, and how do you know what is eroneous and what is not? The scriptures are a measuring rod, they are the standard by which we should measure all doctrine.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Tim. 3:16, 17.

"To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

You've missed the point entirely Mr. America. I'm not trying to argue whether the Bible or the church scholars are more important, or anything of that sort. All I am pointing out is that it is fallacious to claim that pagans influenced all doctrinal matter that is not verbatim from the Bible.

[MikeD4o7]

eh, don't mistake recognizing an action as wrong as not being willing to forgive it.


But do we only forgive it in words, yet take vengence in action? I think if you look at the opinions about how our prison system should be run, it becomes clear that people don't just want wrongdoers to be put in prison as a means to take away the threat they pose, but it seems as if the emphasis is put on punishment and revenge for their wrongs.

[cpwill]

:confused:???i thought you were the one who pushed a separation between theology and government? why then do you expect that our government would have a christian attitude towards prisoners but not one towards (say) homosexuals?

[marv]

I'll chime in now.

My first question was just intended to be provocative. The consensus answer to that question seems to have been between 'somewhere' and 'nowhere'. My appologies.

My interest was really the second question. Have you made the right choice in your belief?

Some choices you could have made:
Shiva,
Devi,
Kali,
Yahweh (probably the most common),
Tripurasundari,
Durga,
Visnu,
Brahma,
Allah,
Akl Purakh,
Arura Mazda,
Zurvan,
Itzam Na,
Con Ticci Wiracocha-pachaya
...and this list just scratches the surface. There are millions of devout believers in a thousand religions who know with certainty that they worship the true god that created everything. Then throw in the sub-deities and angels and djinns, sun, moon and whatever rocks, trees or bodies of water you like. This is religious capitalism at its best - choice. Whether your parents were Shinto, Judaeo-Christian, Mayan, or something else, your choice pretty much depended on them.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not denigrating any flavor of religion. If the deity you chose gives you guidance, peace, comfort and happiness, go with it.

It's hard to be an atheist because there is no guide-book.

[MikeD4o7]

???i thought you were the one who pushed a separation between theology and government? why then do you expect that our government would have a christian attitude towards prisoners but not one towards (say) homosexuals?


:) Yep, I definitely do push for that. And I do happen to believe prison should be to remove threats from society rather than for revenge and pure punishment... but not because any religion says so. It's simply rational to only use a prison system to remove threats to society. Why use it to fulfill angry emotions, even if the emotions themselves are understandable?

I've said before that I believe morality comes from a combination of empathy towards other intelligent beings and reason/logic. My views on the prison system are what they are because I think that they fulfill that definition. The same goes for my views on homosexuality.

It just happens that Jesus agrees with me on the crime and punishment issue and maybe he didn't agree with me on homosexuality? Did Jesus specifically say anything about homosexuality though? Or was it just the OT and Paul that were largely anti-homosexual?

[cpwill]

agreed; prison is not for pointless revenge, nor should it be used so; Christ would be in full agreement on this point.

however, you'll notice in general Jesus did a pretty good job of staying out of politics; it wasn't what he was interested in.

on the homosexuality issue; no, Jesus never said "homosexuality is a sin". he merely defined marriage ("for this reason a Man shall leave his Mother and Father and be united with his Wife, and they shall become one") and left it at that, although he did go a bit into making sure one was sexually pure in another section, he referred mostly to sexual sin in general; once singling out lust as one example.

also, when you say "paul and the OT"; you do realize you are reffering to the massive majority of the bible, right? heck, paul was the most prolific biblical writer, with more books to his credit than any other man in history.

[MikeD4o7]

also, when you say "paul and the OT"; you do realize you are reffering to the massive majority of the bible, right? heck, paul was the most prolific biblical writer, with more books to his credit than any other man in history.


hehe, yes I know... I was just wondering if there was anything in the gospels that quoted Jesus as saying something about it.

[MrAmerica]

You've missed the point entirely Mr. America. I'm not trying to argue whether the Bible or the church scholars are more important, or anything of that sort. All I am pointing out is that it is fallacious to claim that pagans influenced all doctrinal matter that is not verbatim from the Bible.

OK Craig, I'll grant you that.

I have been posting on the "Why do Christians deride paganism..." thread, and we were talking about the pagan influences on Christian tradition. I should have just said "extra biblical" or something here instead of Pagan. Either way, the "well of souls" is not a part of the early churches teaching.

[cpwill]

hehe, yes I know... I was just wondering if there was anything in the gospels that quoted Jesus as saying something about it.

he never brought up homosexuality specifically (likely it was generally accepted as a sin or simply not present to the point where he never had to address it, Jesus also never condemned rape specifically, nor pedophilia, probably for the same reasons.) however he did define marraige as between a man and a woman.

[MikeD4o7]

he never brought up homosexuality specifically (likely it was generally accepted as a sin or simply not present to the point where he never had to address it, Jesus also never condemned rape specifically, nor pedophilia, probably for the same reasons.) however he did define marraige as between a man and a woman.


Maybe if he comes down again he'll change his mind :)

[cpwill]

unlikely; God is unchanging, and in particular the idea that homosexuality is a misaplication of the gift of our sexual natures seems to be something that's carried throughout the entire biblical and church history (well, up until the modern Episcopalians, and even then it's a bit more of a radical minority who are forced into using rather silly arguments).

[Captain America]

I think that after we die it will be just like it was before we were born.

Don't you remember what it was like before you were born? No? I didn't think so. Me neither. I wasn't bothered with it then so I guess I won't be bothered with it after I'm gone.

[Captain America]

the idea that homosexuality is a misaplication of the gift of our sexual natures seems to be something that's carried throughout the entire biblical and church history

Perhaps, but I have always suspected that the myth of Jesus and his deciples was rooted in homosexuality. They traveled together, shunned relations with women, hugged and kissed a lot. Subliminal justification for their own sexuality. I have always suspected that the hard work of the early Roman church to degrade women and render them powerless and owned property was another symptom of their masculine love.

However, I have also suspected that the biblical character of Jesus might have actually been the husband or lover of Mary Magdelene in real life, if he existed at all.

Who knows? It's hard to debate the facts of a fairy tale isn't it?