Islam and Terrorism

[Michele]

"Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love the aggressors. Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is more grievous than bloodshed.... Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme." (Qur’an 2:190-192)

I must tell all. When I first came to this forum, I came having already read much on the topics for which I am the most vocal. In other words, I came with a developed frame of reference, which of course I continue to develop. Rarely, on the topic I am most noted for addressing, do I go out on a limb purely with a random cut and paste approach. I had already filled my bookmarks with many of the sources which have used repeatedly on this forum to forward my assertions, my opinions, and those facts that are not as generally considered.

On this topic I am only beginning. I thought I should make this clear. I am in what would be a discovery phase. However, the last two days with Logic85 had a profound effect upon my sense of humanity, as well as my well being. I don't want to belabor that point, however I found it impossible to believe what I thought was a religion (any religion) should be vilified with no sense of comparitive discourse. For this reason, now I embark on my own search into the matter. I am making no strong assertions, so as I look further into the matter, as I did with the IP, I am confident I will hone in on the most credible sources of information. I do not tolerate vilification, however informed critical discourse is important. Personally, I do not consider any one site or article definitive, and disparity is evident even amongst Muslim theologians and scholars (as is to be expected no different than the disparity in interpretations evident within Judeo-Christianity).

So far I feel it is safe to say that the Muslim interpretation to genesis is significantly different, with room for the finding of a wide breathe of worthy information. That said I have found this site:

http://answering-islam.org.uk . another poster who mostly lurks gave me about a dozen others. I am working through as well. That poster who will remain nameless is a Muslim.


I will continue my preamble in the next post.

[Michele]

Larani, in another thread had voice his opinion that he was sure Islam was a religion. Well it seems this particular discourse from the above mentioned site agrees:

"For many years, the "Answering Islam" project has mainly been concerned with "theological aspects" in the encounter between Christians and Muslims. Our purpose was to provide both parties the best possible understanding of the relevant arguments and questions to evaluate the truth claims of Christianity and Islam.

Islam, however, is essentially a political ideology. The attacks of September 11, 2001 have forced us to pay more attention to the policital aspects of Islam and its justification to use force and even terrorism to achieve its goals. This section is very new, still far from comprehensive, and certainly not "politically correct", but we make every effort to be truthful, and documented facts will speak for themselves. "

What seems to be true is that Islam has undergone its own transition since Mohammad as well, as well as a form of corruption of Mohammed's teaching wherein there has been a pull from within to go back to pre-Islamic times.

"What many Muslims and non-Muslims alike fail to realize is that Islam is not a religion in the same way "religion" is understood in the West. Philip Hitti, the late Lebanese-American scholar who taught at Princeton University for nearly fifty years, was a leading expert on the history of Arabs and Islam. One of his books has three parts: Islam as Religion, Islam as State, and Islam as Culture. Whether Muslims are aware of it or not, orthodox Islam is a threefold system—a religious-political-cultural ideology—with the goal to subjugate the world to itself."

In Muhammad’s day, conquered Jews and Christians who did not convert to Islam were allowed to live, provided they paid jizya, a "protection" tax. Pagans were only given the choice to convert or die. This was the "peace" offered by 7th century Islam. To this day, in every country where Islamic law (Shari’a) is embraced, non-Muslims (and, yes, women) are treated as second-class citizens. Freedom of religion is forbidden. For a Muslim to "apostatize" means, at the very least: severe harassment, or worse: imprisonment, torture and death. If you doubt any of this or want positive documentation, see my longer article Does Islam Promote Peace? and/or feel free to contact me. Better yet, do your own careful research on the web or at a local library. See if you can find a satisfying answer to the following question: In what Islamic nation is this "beautiful, peaceful, and tolerant religion of Islam" (as it is presented in the West) practiced in such a way that it might prompt you to move there for the rest of your life?



http://answering-islam.org.uk/TWOR/morethanreligion.html

I think an ongoing and respectful (or compassionate) dialogue is essential, HOWEVER I can not vouche for this site or its views or assertions. As I already see there is disparity as to whether or not the Qur'aan did or did not cite scientific observations which were well ahead of its time. I know Sumerian legends did, and of course we all know the amazing contribution various Arab cultures did offer to astronomy, mathematics, science, engineering, etc. So regardless of which verses were scientifically ahead of their time and which were far off of any scientific validity, certainly an amazing breathe of contribution was made by the Egyptians, the Phenicians, the Persians, along of course with the Greeks that followed and on and on.

It seems fair to say there is a wealth of slander that has been heaped upon Islam as well, which in light of REQUIRES one consult many sources, including those of Moslem scholars and theologians themselves.

I REALLY URGE THOSE OF MUSLIM FAITH WHO ARE LURKING (MORESO READING THAN PARTICIPATING I MEAN) ON THIS FORUM, TO OFFER YOUR VIEWS, OTHER SOURCES, OPINIONS, ASSERTIONS.

FOR I AM NOT CONVINCED THIS SITE DOES NOT ALSO HAVE ITS OWN AGENDA AND BIAS EITHER WHICH MAY WELL BE EVIDENT IN THIS PARAGRAPH, WHICH FOLLOWS THE ONE I PULLED ABOVE.



I do not say these things to be unkind. It’s just that I am of the persuasion that the truth that "hurts" is better than a lie that "heals." As both Muslims and non-Muslims alike recognize the true nature of Islam, it is my prayer that many will take a closer look—not at some alternative religion—but at "the Gospel of God which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord ..." (Rom 1:2,3) Gospel (Injil in Arabic) means Good News. Rooted in thousands of years of symbolic animal sacrifices and hundreds of detailed prophecies, the good news about the Promised Savior is the Message the Creator and Judge of this world wants all people to hear, understand & believe. While the world’s religions tell you to save yourself—only "the Gospel of God" provides a Savior. "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." (1 Tim 1:15) Now that ... is more than a religion!

http://answering-islam.org.uk/TWOR/morethanreligion.html

In other words, I ask myself whether or not this site is primarily that of a Christain perspective on Islam and Mohammed, pulled together to persuade muslims that conversion may be in there best interest. I throw that out, as I am not sure myself.

Be that as it may, with no further adieu.

Discourse on Islam and Terrorism from what looks to be a Christain cite in dialogue with Muslims.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Terrorism/index.html

[Larani]

Larani, in another thread had voice his opinion that he was sure Islam was a religion. Well it seems this particular discourse from the above mentioned site agrees:

I pretty sure that is a typo Michele and we all do it don't worry no offense taken I just wanted my position clear I stated I believe that I thought Islam was not a religion. For which later you pasted many good paragraphs siting a case that it is not.

I want to be critical of other religions beside just Islam so that you understand it is not just Islam that has this problem. As I said in another post. All religions by their very nature, whether Judaism, Christianity, or Islam are exclusive and bigoted in their makeup.

If you read Jesus's teaching really read them before his Crucifixion he never endorse religion. He was spiritual yes but he did not endorse Religion in fact he denounced it. HE warned us to not go into temples and do as they do for their vanity forever chanting, he said go into your closet alone and pray. HE was against the establishment for fleecing the populace of their wealth to pay for all the expensive rituals and the like that those in power has put upon the people to pay for.

Allah wouldn't need one of his children to travel half way around the world to some monument to say I love you. A simply I love you from within ones own heart would be enough, but those in power draw massive amounts of money from such ceremonies, and Jesus try to show the truth and that is why he was killed.

He was killed because he showed forgiveness lies within the heart of a man to either give or to hold, but in his day forgiveness was a big business designed around pools and sacrifices where Doves and Goats were sold with the profits going to the priests.

What is it if I offended you and can get forgiveness from Allah and yet cannot get it from you. Will not your wound still fester will it not still tear into you turning your heart into stone against me. But can I get forgiveness from you if you are unwilling to give it. Can I get Forgiveness from you if you have been led to believe that Forgiveness come from God and you play no part in it. To forgive is to make a choice Be forgiving or not that is the question.

Now Christianity too has become more then a religion in its past. It too has seen its message distorted and twisted for political Goals and the heart of its corruption was Rome.

It all started with Paul mix a little religion with Roman Empire and what do you get. You get a religion wanting to build Gods kingdom here on earth when Gods kingdom lies within each one of us at our heart. This is where the battle takes place. This is where are soul lies and this is heaven not above in the clouds but withing each of us. And as that battle wages within us so to does it manifest itself in the real world.

"Our father who aren't in Heaven Oh Holy is thy name. Thy Kingdom come thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven."

Help save the soul of the man and as his heart is heaven so to will his deeds and actions upon earth be heavenly.

So Michele understand when I speak out against religion I speak out against the establishment as did Jesus in his day. I speak not against Our Father who reside in each of us, in fact I would say I speak to him for I know that he is there even if only a fraction reside in a mans heart and fraction is all that matters.

Spirituality and Religion are not the same thing. The former is heavenly the latter is corrupt, misleading, and self serving for its own ends. Not the ends of the Father for the father loves all his children NO EXCLUSIONS.

Read the parable of the prodigal son for no better has that which represented the father but better said.

[Madrigalian]

Well said Larani.

[Larani]

In other words, I ask myself whether or not this site is primarily that of a Christain perspective on Islam and Mohammed, pulled together to persuade muslims that conversion may be in there best interest. I throw that out, as I am not sure myself.


Michele obviously for many conversion as you call it would not be a good thing in fact may actually be detrimental to their livelihood. Depending on where they live. And I for one wouldn't endorse that.

Sad fact is much of what this man wrote would never get into the heart of the Muslim world, but for those that can its simply a request to look inward and see Islam for what it really is.

As Obmar said, " Its everything its a way of life." I think that pretty much some it up. That Takes care of the Three that this writer refers too.

All anyone on the outside is doing and I know some are rabid with the worst quotes they can pull out of the Koran, but you got to try and see it from their perspective. Do they live in a land that has seen violence because of Islamists and the militancy?

Those of us in Free Countries enjoy our freedoms and many see these guys as a hostile force intent on dominating the world or the very least causing as much destruction against Kafir's as possible. Is it any wonder some just seem to be losing it. Do you really blame them?

As a American I can look out across the waters and see my fellow brothers and sisters in Muslim lands and see their poverty, see their oppression and my heart goes out to them. but I ask myself what is causing it?

Well Monarchies for one. Europe had them and they ended up chopping off the kings head in France. but if these tough Monarchies didn't exists what then, what would they average Muslim want to see a Theocracy? And if a Theocracy can you tell me these Islamic Theocracy would be content with a portion of the world and not want to expand and grow bringing all under their power under the umbrella of Islam?

Think about it. Will really look forward to your response

[Michele]

I pretty sure that is a typo Michele and we all do it don't worry no offense taken I just wanted my position clear I stated I believe that I thought Islam was not a religion. For which later you pasted many good paragraphs siting a case that it is not.

I want to be critical of other religions beside just Islam so that you understand it is not just Islam that has this problem. As I said in another post. All religions by their very nature, whether Judaism, Christianity, or Islam are exclusive and bigoted in their makeup.

If you read Jesus's teaching really read them before his Crucifixion he never endorse religion. He was spiritual yes but he did not endorse Religion in fact he denounced it. HE warned us to not go into temples and do as they do for their vanity forever chanting, he said go into your closet alone and pray. HE was against the establishment for fleecing the populace of their wealth to pay for all the expensive rituals and the like that those in power has put upon the people to pay for.

Allah wouldn't need one of his children to travel half way around the world to some monument to say I love you. A simply I love you from within ones own heart would be enough, but those in power draw massive amounts of money from such ceremonies, and Jesus try to show the truth and that is why he was killed.

He was killed because he showed forgiveness lies within the heart of a man to either give or to hold, but in his day forgiveness was a big business designed around pools and sacrifices where Doves and Goats were sold with the profits going to the priests.

What is it if I offended you and can get forgiveness from Allah and yet cannot get it from you. Will not your wound still fester will it not still tear into you turning your heart into stone against me. But can I get forgiveness from you if you are unwilling to give it. Can I get Forgiveness from you if you have been led to believe that Forgiveness come from God and you play no part in it. To forgive is to make a choice Be forgiving or not that is the question.

Now Christianity too has become more then a religion in its past. It too has seen its message distorted and twisted for political Goals and the heart of its corruption was Rome.

It all started with Paul mix a little religion with Roman Empire and what do you get. You get a religion wanting to build Gods kingdom here on earth when Gods kingdom lies within each one of us at our heart. This is where the battle takes place. This is where are soul lies and this is heaven not above in the clouds but withing each of us. And as that battle wages within us so to does it manifest itself in the real world.

"Our father who aren't in Heaven Oh Holy is thy name. Thy Kingdom come thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven."

Help save the soul of the man and as his heart is heaven so to will his deeds and actions upon earth be heavenly.

So Michele understand when I speak out against religion I speak out against the establishment as did Jesus in his day. I speak not against Our Father who reside in each of us, in fact I would say I speak to him for I know that he is there even if only a fraction reside in a mans heart and fraction is all that matters.

Spirituality and Religion are not the same thing. The former is heavenly the latter is corrupt, misleading, and self serving for its own ends. Not the ends of the Father for the father loves all his children NO EXCLUSIONS.

Read the parable of the prodigal son for no better has that which represented the father but better said.


yes it was a typo which is why I said the information I placed backed up what you had said. I am not fighting with you here. YOu had said you didn't believe Islam was a religion and if you read through the information I placed answering-islam concurs with you. I do not know why you feel we have a fight. Most everything you say here I concur with. My issue is with those that seem to feel intolerance, bigotry, hatred, and the like IS exclusive to Islam. I have no fight with you and in fact neither would Muslims. It is the singling out of Islam as the sole provocateur by pulling verse out of context that is my problem and those that are calling for the dismantling of JUST ISLAM as if it corners the market on evil. That is my only argument.

For I am a secular person and do not advocate for any. But if we are going to dismantle Islam we might as well dismantle them all across the board.. I am a spiritualist, a sensualist, a humanist, and a pacifist. I cull what good they all have to offer, and do happen to understand the greatest of JC's two commandments much better it seems than some of the Christians we have on forum vilifying solely Islam. That is my problem. This problem I do not have with you. I thought we cleared that up last night. I guess we didn't.

[Michele]

Well Monarchies for one. Europe had them and they ended up chopping off the kings head in France. but if these tough Monarchies didn't exists what then, what would they average Muslim want to see a Theocracy? And if a Theocracy can you tell me these Islamic Theocracy would be content with a portion of the world and not want to expand and grow bringing all under their power under the umbrella of Islam?

Think about it. Will really look forward to your response

I have already responded to this in more ways than one. I see the problem with theocracies... however, I am not sure that has all to do with the religion itself completely. I feel as I have said many times more than once. That the rise in any rabid religious fundamentalism to the point of arms comes in direct correlation to preceived threat from the outside and yes I would guess that rise is due to the theologies themselves as they all invoke god to justify their angers or retaliations. Because there has been adversity from the other side is what has caused a splinter between Islam and these rabid groups who have an argument even with how they feel Islam should be practiced. It has risen in direct proportion to the preceived threat from outside their own culture.

Just as now we see a rise in Christain fundamentalism which is in direct correlation to the threat Christains preceive from the outside. My point is the constant outside meddling can not be factored out with regard to the need for some Arab countries to remain a theocracy. They aren't all a theocracy.

We already had this conversation. as I said I thought we understood each other. I guess we didn't for you don't seem to agree that the last 70 years of outside provocation, and meddling from all the eastern european, european and our country factors in with the defensiveness within those countries that remain strictly a theocracy, and I do.

And in the desire for those within the Middle east to move toward secular governing based on a democratic process, what has happened now? The splinter groups ALQ and ansar al Islaam to name the two, are rebellion against their own governments? Why is that? Because of Islam. For the governments are now being attacked are both Arab and Islamic. So my point is the cause of the festering of the fundamentalist is not only because of Islam.

[Larani]

yes it was a typo which is why I said the information I placed backed up what you had said. I am not fighting with you here. YOu had said you didn't believe Islam was a religion and if you read through the information I placed answering-islam concurs with you. I do not know why you feel we have a fight. Most everything you say here I concur with. My issue is with those that seem to feel intolerance, bigotry, hatred, and the like IS exclusive to Islam. I have no fight with you and in fact neither would Muslims. It is the singling out of Islam as the sole provocateur by pulling verse out of context that is my problem and those that are calling for the dismantling of JUST ISLAM as if it corners the market on evil. That is my only argument.

For I am a secular person and do not advocate for any. But if we are going to dismantle Islam we might as well dismantle them all across the board.. I am a spiritualist, a sensualist, a humanist, and a pacifist. I cull what good they all have to offer, and do happen to understand the greatest of JC's two commandments much better it seems than some of the Christians we have on forum vilifying solely Islam. That is my problem. This problem I do not have with you. I thought we cleared that up last night. I guess we didn't.

First Michele I do not believe we are fighting. :) I believe we are having a discussing. :) We may disagree at times but that does not constitute a automatic fight nor does it mean WAR! :lol:

I know in the past I have needed to stand firm and clarify myself with regards to my thoughts, beliefs, and feelings as I said nobody but I has the right to claim those things but me, but beyond that I have had no problems with you.

As for us needing to clear something up again I think your percieving things that do not exists between us.

[Larani]

I have already responded to this in more ways than one. I see the problem with theocracies... however, I am not sure that has all to do with the religion itself completely. I feel as I have said many times more than once. That the rise in any rabid religious fundamentalism to the point of arms comes in direct correlation to preceived threat from the outside and yes I would guess that rise is due to the theologies themselves as they all invoke god to justify their angers or retaliations. Because there has been adversity from the other side is what has caused a splinter between Islam and these rabid groups who have an argument even with how they feel Islam should be practiced. It has risen in direct proportion to the preceived threat from outside their own culture.

These splinter groups as you call them are enlighten societies that have put down their repressive Monarchies and Theocracies. You have already stated in another thread with a cut and paste.


"For many years, the "Answering Islam" project has mainly been concerned with "theological aspects" in the encounter between Christians and Muslims. Our purpose was to provide both parties the best possible understanding of the relevant arguments and questions to evaluate the truth claims of Christianity and Islam.

Islam, however, is essentially a political ideology. The attacks of September 11, 2001 have forced us to pay more attention to the policital aspects of Islam and its justification to use force and even terrorism to achieve its goals. This section is very new, still far from comprehensive, and certainly not "politically correct", but we make every effort to be truthful, and documented facts will speak for themselves. "

Do you agree with with this? If Islam is more then just a religion can you not see how the Western world in fact any Non-Islamic country would be nervous by its spread? Since it is by its very nature not just a religion.


Just as now we see a rise in Christain fundamentalism which is in direct correlation to the threat Christains preceive from the outside. My point is the constant outside meddling can not be factored out with regard to the need for some Arab countries to remain a theocracy. They aren't all a theocracy.

We already had this conversation. as I said I thought we understood each other. I guess we didn't for you don't seem to agree that the last 70 years of outside provocation, and meddling from all the eastern european, european and our country factors in with the defensiveness within those countries that remain strictly a theocracy, and I do.

Back again to the Arab thing this is not a Arab thing. If the heart of Islam were in Brazil would that make it a Arab thing? Lets be clear. Sure a majority of Muslims are Arab but also Persians and a host or other Nationalities. but yes at their core They have one thing in common. Islamic Supremecy and it is that Supremecy that is the issue. Not Arabs. Though much of the money derived from Islam ends up in Arabs hands now that we can say is a Arab thing I suppose.


And in the desire for those within the Middle east to move toward secular governing based on a democratic process, what has happened now? The splinter groups ALQ and ansar al Islaam to name the two, are rebellion against their own governments? Why is that? Because of Islam. For the governments are now being attacked are both Arab and Islamic. So my point is the cause of the festering of the fundamentalist is not only because of Islam.

I have always agree any outside intervention by Kafirs in Muslims lands is problomatic because lest face it were Kafir's but that is the problem were not human brothers and sisters, were the nemisis's of Islam simply because who we are. In its own writings and hence we will never be matter how good our intentions our intentions will always be worth less because were Kafir's.

If the west brings ideals of religious Tolerence, Of seperation of Church and State or Democracy and freedom. As much as Muslims were like to think they got a lot of reforming to do because these principals are anti-Islamic, because Islam is Everything. Its a one world Government idea. but its not Humanistic and that is its FLAW.

When Armstrong step down onto the moon his said.

One small step for man (kind of sexists I know) One giant leap for Mankind. That is a humanistic statement.

Islam on the other hand will not be satisfied in my belief until it is

That's One small step for Muslims, One Giant Leap for Allah.

[Michele]

First Michele I do not believe we are fighting. :) I believe we are having a discussing. :) We may disagree at times but that does not constitute a automatic fight nor does it mean WAR! :lol:

I know in the past I have needed to stand firm and clarify myself with regards to my thoughts, beliefs, and feelings as I said nobody but I has the right to claim those things but me, but beyond that I have had no problems with you.

As for us needing to clear something up again I think your percieving things that do not exists between us.

oh good. I thought we were discussing as well. and now we don't always agree on all things, but we are not fighting. And of course you do know I too will be very stubborn on my points as well. At the same time I am also filling in gaps in knowledge... and Islam I am only beginning here... who would have thought I would be reading the Qur'aan. I have only just picked up the bible. but all that I think is a good thing.

[Michele]

Back again to the Arab thing this is not a Arab thing. If the heart of Islam were in Brazil would that make it a Arab thing? Lets be clear. Sure a majority of Muslims are Arab but also Persians and a host or other Nationalities. but yes at their core They have one thing in common. Islamic Supremecy and it is that Supremecy that is the issue. Not Arabs. Though much of the money derived from Islam ends up in Arabs hands now that we can say is a Arab thing I suppose.


I only have time for this one little thing. I took too much time in the other thread. Yes I understand that ... and some are pakistani, chinese, etc. when I say Arabs it just means I am focusing in on the Middle East, and yes I know Iranians are persians....so you are correct the generalization is incorrect and I must stop it. The clarification you make is important. I have to come back to your post later.

Also there was something in the other thread with regard to the Ottoman empire. You saying the crusades were in reaction to the expansion of the Ottoman's? my history is not good here. But I was under the impression the religion of the Ottoman's was greek orthodox. I have to do some homework on this. Unless you can help. I have to tell you the truth... I don't trust the information I get on forums most of the time. So I don't like to rely on others to fill in the gaps particularly if I do not agree with either their sentiments or their overviews.

[Larani]

Also there was something in the other thread with regard to the Ottoman empire. You saying the crusades were in reaction to the expansion of the Ottoman's? my history is not good here. But I was under the impression the religion of the Ottoman's was greek orthodox. I have to do some homework on this. Unless you can help. I have to tell you the truth... I don't trust the information I get on forums most of the time. So I don't like to rely on others to fill in the gaps particularly if I do not agree with either their sentiments or their overviews.

Here is just one site on the Ottoman Empire.

http://www.crystalinks.com/ottomanempire.html

As empire goes The Roman Empire collapsed, and the Eastern Empire became the Byzantium Empire (thats the Greek Orthodox you spoke of), which was defeated by the Muslim which then became the Ottoman Empire, in a nutshell.


Added later.. Here is a site on the Crusades specifically and you love it because yeah Israel is centerstage.

http://www.medievalcrusades.com/

What do you think Michele ought the world just move everbody out of that area and open up a giant Theme Park for all religions to come and visit :)

[Michele]

Here is just one site on the Ottoman Empire.

http://www.crystalinks.com/ottomanempire.html

As empire goes The Roman Empire collapsed, and the Eastern Empire became the Byzantium Empire (thats the Greek Orthodox you spoke of), which was defeated by the Muslim which then became the Ottoman Empire, in a nutshell.


Added later.. Here is a site on the Crusades specifically and you love it because yeah Israel is centerstage.

http://www.medievalcrusades.com/

What do you think Michele ought the world just move everbody out of that area and open up a giant Theme Park for all religions to come and visit :)


this is what I don't get. we have all this conquesting going on. But only the ottoman's are to be criticized for the swords? while western civilization lauds over the greeks and the romans? and really do you believe because the Islamists (jihadi's) have expanded their network (because no one wished to um pay attention to the grievance regarding them NOT WANTING THE IMPERALISM to continue to meddle in the ME region... and people were a bit perturb about the unresolved IP conflict, NO NAME ON OF THE MULTIFACTORS) this literally means Islam wishes to take over?

You see I don't believe that. I believe the whole drumming beating on the crusade motif is a bit of an overstatement on both sides here. I do not see ALQ as a representative for Islam in the least. I never did.

Although I did read somewhere that the Sudanese government seemed to have gotten the impression that they were being given permission to Islamize Africa. Of course I have a vague memory on that which I culled from reading a very long essay on the Sudan, dating back to the British mandate era in 1948. I have to see if I can find that essay again.

So in short, while your thought is amusing, I would have to say NO... I don't believe there are any plans for any religious theme parks though I did a riff on that myself a while with regard to IP and of course I got yelled at for not taking things seriously. Me. Not taking things seriously... that is funny.

You know the Messiah House of Mirrors and the Holy trinity coaster ride... and the Jesus Christ water ride where the water changes to wine.

[Larani]

this is what I don't get. we have all this conquesting going on. But only the ottoman's are to be criticized for the swords? while western civilization lauds over the greeks and the romans? and really do you believe because the Islamists (jihadi's) have expanded their network (because no one wished to um pay attention to the grievance regarding them NOT WANTING THE IMPERALISM to continue to meddle in the ME region... and people were a bit perturb about the unresolved IP conflict, NO NAME ON OF THE MULTIFACTORS) this literally means Islam wishes to take over?

Michele for one who is always talking about historical context that is all I am doing when I refer to these empires. As far as your cap lock statement,"NOT WANTING THE IMPERALISM" I have no idea what you mean, in what context or you referring to. Are you referring to WWII gulf war 91 or the current situation in Iraq. What? You see its funny as it was in the crusades. even though Islam is a shared collective the reality is with the birth of Nationalism and the middle east has also been separate into smaller mindset ie Iraqi, Iranian, Saudi, Kuwaiti etc. and some of these cells are and have been Allies with the west. Hence when these allies have called the West has been there.

As far as those dead empires are concerned there dead, gone dust to dust. I know of nobody running around wanting to resurrect the Roman Empire or the Byzantium Empire. As for my comments about the Ottoman Empire its has always been about the collective of Islam itself and those who wish a uniting and a caliphate to rule again. And how the Islamists use the "Great Days" and "The Height" as a way to fuel their Islamists forces to that end.


You see I don't believe that. I believe the whole drumming beating on the crusade motif is a bit of an overstatement on both sides here. I do not see ALQ as a representative for Islam in the least. I never did.

Well I don't pay all my attention on ALQ either since ALQ is but one of many. Most notorious sure from and American Standpoint, but just one. That website I gave listed all the various groups and all have one thing in common. Islamic Fundamentalism.


Although I did read somewhere that the Sudanese government seemed to have gotten the impression that they were being given permission to Islamize Africa. Of course I have a vague memory on that which I culled from reading a very long essay on the Sudan, dating back to the British mandate era in 1948. I have to see if I can find that essay again.

So in short, while your thought is amusing, I would have to say NO... I don't believe there are any plans for any religious theme parks though I did a riff on that myself a while with regard to IP and of course I got yelled at for not taking things seriously. Me. Not taking things seriously... that is funny.

Yeah that is funny. But in reality I am almost serious. History has proved time and time again that neither the Christians, Jews, or Muslims have gotten along in that area. And though Christians have no claims to the land they always claiming the need to kiss the dirt. Silly Christians. As for Jews claims well clearly they have some historical claim but that is all, but there isn't a Jew alive today or even during the holocaust that could trace a accurate historical ancestry the best they can do is say Judaism was born in that area and that at one time Jews lived there before conquers came and took them over. But Jews themselves have their own conquering stories and by the time you get back to the Pharaohs and the Assyrians and such it gets pretty pointless, historically interesting but pointless in todays politics.

For my part I have always supported the Israel idea as I did the Indian reservations idea. If Jews felt they needed 1/1,000,000,000 of the planet to call theres so they could feel save in a world full of Hostile Christians and Muslims I always thought sure why not those other religion got a pretty big chuck of the planet. what that little piece of land.

I always thought the League of Nations made the right decision, but after watching the feuding for so long I would pretty much support a UN resolution to ship all human inhabitants in that area to Antarctica and the irradiate the whole area so no human could ever go back in there A monument to human selfishness and inhumanity.