do we NEED religion? [Archive] - Whistle Stopper Political Forums

MrAmerica

06-10-2004, 10:28 PM

ukangel

06-10-2004, 10:28 PM

I think we need at one level because it fills a spiritual need in us, most people have some form of spiritual belief system. Something that for us answers the bigger questions in life.

I think when you believe you choose to live your life by that code. I dont think your church is doing a very good job for you if they are not helping you resolve these questions for yourself, perhaps you should talk directly to the pastor in your church about how you feel. He should be able to point you in the direction of someone you can help you. Or maybe you can look for a different church yourself or a christian youth worker.

Your right about religions being at the heart of many conflicts. I am not sure that its the fault of religion per se but rather the way people misuse it. Its similiar in that racism is sadly a fact of life for many but thats not the fault of people being from different races, but rather the way some people interprate those differences.

Fasdf

06-10-2004, 11:48 PM

Some people NEED religion. MrAmerica NEEDs religion. Fasdf does not NEED or even want religion.

People can exist without god (as you can see), but god cannot exist without people.

Xan

06-10-2004, 11:59 PM

No disrespect, but I don't feel like I need religion. I am a christian, though I made the choice to accept this religion. I hate when people say religion is only for those who need something in their life, for those who have gone through dark times and need something to encourage them and give them hope. This may be the case in some situations, though I chose to accept Christianity because I believe it is true. I believe I, along with the rest of humanity as sinned and that Jesus was sent to Earth to take away our sins.

Now whether others believe that, well, thats their decision. I am not the type of person that will loo down upon those that do not believe it. So on the issue of whether people need religion. I do not think they do. I think all those that follow a religion accept it by making the choice to. Its not something they need to make their lives of purpose and meaning.

Also, you stated Mr. Tomkins, "Why should we live our lives by something that was written a hundred years ago?" The simple answer is, just because it was written a hundred years ago doesn't mean it isn't true. It may be confusing and seem somewhat mythical, but no one can really know whether its true or not. Thats where the choice to believe comes into play. Lets say hundreds of years from now only a small number of books remain on the attack on September 11th. Just because it was written a hundred years ago doesn't mean we should already disprove it as false, as if it never occured.

I'm glad you asked your questions, I know I still have many more concerning this subject. :)

Craig

06-11-2004, 12:07 AM

Yes.

No.

;)

Ramin

06-11-2004, 01:10 AM

Actually I have contemplated this many times before. I believe humans need morals, and salvation. Religion, to me, seemed like a good way of reaching these morals. I can't say we needed it to attain morality, though perhaps it would've been more difficult without religion, with the thought that we humans are always on top of the world. Religion humbled us quicker with the idea that we are not authorities. There seems to be a downfall as well, that religion has been used as an excuse- at times, to revert back into acting as if we are ourselves authorities and caused extreme harm as well. Therefore, in the moral sense, religion had a hastiness that was both good and bad, and really that may not have made an overall differences if it existed or not. Maybe it did more good, if we consider how many people it gave salvation too, however. I believe we needed it to attain salvation, and it is hard to see how this could've happened without religion. In my opinion, religion was indeed needed in teaching us unity so we don't feel alone, through humbling us so much that we appreciate one another. I believe that our sense of commonality, even when we are not religious today, are caused by religion from the past. This has made us feel safe today and appreciate life, and without religion ever having existed I don't see how that could possibly happen. In other words, I really believe that it was needed, but not that it is needed for individual life today, unless one really cannot attain salvation through friendships, and really has a negative overall view of every human but him/herself.

MikeD4o7

06-11-2004, 01:56 AM

No, we do not need superstition of any kind... even if it instills hope or good feelings in people to have a lucky coin... we do not need lucky coins, and the sooner we realize that it's our own perceptions and actions that guide our "luck", the better off we'll be as human beings. The same applies to religion.

eugene40

06-11-2004, 02:20 AM

Once the people finally accept science we will not need religion anymore.... and I hope that this happens soon.

mataj

06-11-2004, 03:37 AM

Do we NEED religion? No. Religion needs us, more specifically, our tithes.

cpwill

06-11-2004, 04:42 AM

i am not an atheist, i totally believ that a God exists! i also believe there was a Jesus, but i am only 16 and yet i ask myself the question

excelent, questions are good. just make sure you don't get so caught in "questioning" mode that you can no longer accept answers.

why we should live our lives by something that was written hundreds of years ago?!

thousands, and that's one of the reasons why we should probably pay some pretty good attention to it. what would make me think that somehow out of the millions upon millions of people down through the centuries, that i am somehow the wisest and the most Godly among them?

my parents are christian and encourage me to come to church with them but i dont see the point, the pastors just say the same thing every time and there is nothing there for me to do that i can't do at home!

you have the ability to fellowship and worship with fellow christians, study in a community, and have access to better educated better experienced christians in a one-one atmosphere sitting in your bedroom? i think that if you think that the minister is saing the same thing every time either you have an amazingly bad minister or you are not listening.

i believe that religion causes unessecary conflict,deaths and dispute,

no, abuse of religion causes these things. saying that religion causes these things is like saying that baseball bats cause beatings.

MikeD4o7

06-11-2004, 04:53 AM

excelent, questions are good. just make sure you don't get so caught in "questioning" mode that you can no longer accept answers.

but at the same time don't accept an answer or explanation solely because it's the only one that somebody can provide you. It has to be a sufficient answer.

thousands, and that's one of the reasons why we should probably pay some pretty good attention to it. what would make me think that somehow out of the millions upon millions of people down through the centuries, that i am somehow the wisest and the most Godly among them?

But also keep in mind that it seems doubtful that humanity would not have collectively advanced in wisdom over the course of thousands of years... what seemed reasonable and wise at one time may have been revealed to not be so later on with further inspection and greater knowledge.

no, abuse of religion causes these things. saying that religion causes these things is like saying that baseball bats cause beatings.

I'd say that it's blind faith that leads to religion being so easily abused. To doubt is the greatest virtue that anyone can have that seeks truth... don't ever let yourself be told that doubt is in anyway a negative thing.

cpwill

06-11-2004, 05:37 AM

but at the same time don't accept an answer or explanation solely because it's the only one that somebody can provide you. It has to be a sufficient answer.

however, you also have to remember that in all things there are things that humanity does not understand, things that are beyond our current comprehension. humanity does not fully understand so basic a thing as gravity, much less something as amazingly complex as God. this does not mean that gravity does not exist.

But also keep in mind that it seems doubtful that humanity would not have collectively advanced in wisdom over the course of thousands of years... what seemed reasonable and wise at one time may have been revealed to not be so later on with further inspection and greater knowledge.

of course we have advanced, and are advancing, in our knowledge of the scriptures, in our understanding, and in our comrehension. this in no way means that the bible isnt' an excelent tool; for the learning that we are doing is a digging, trying to find the message behind the writing. will any of us ever be as wise as paul, or as Jesus? no, not likely, however, we can stand on the shoulders of giants, so to speak.

I'd say that it's blind faith that leads to religion being so easily abused. To doubt is the greatest virtue that anyone can have that seeks truth... don't ever let yourself be told that doubt is in anyway a negative thing.

doubt, like faith, can be either a negative or a positive thing dependent on how it is applied. for anyone to say that one is always positive or one is always negative is typically the argument of someone who's trying to sell you something. there are time to have faith and there are times to have doubts, and there are times to have faith in spite of doubts.

MikeD4o7

06-11-2004, 06:00 AM

however, you also have to remember that in all things there are things that humanity does not understand, things that are beyond our current comprehension. humanity does not fully understand so basic a thing as gravity, much less something as amazingly complex as God. this does not mean that gravity does not exist.

I say that things which we don't understand should be left to speculation, not to be set in stone as absolute truth... and that we should give credit to the most likely theory we currently have, but only credit for being the most likely theory, and when a better explanation comes along, we take it.

of course we have advanced, and are advancing, in our knowledge of the scriptures, in our understanding, and in our comrehension. this in no way means that the bible isnt' an excelent tool; for the learning that we are doing is a digging, trying to find the message behind the writing. will any of us ever be as wise as paul, or as Jesus? no, not likely, however, we can stand on the shoulders of giants, so to speak.

The same could be said for Buddha, Socrates, Sagan, Einstein, etc etc. Naturally we should learn from the wisdom of those in the past... but I don't think that we should limit ourselves by pointing to any single one of them as the ultimate source of wisdom and truth.

doubt, like faith, can be either a negative or a positive thing dependent on how it is applied. for anyone to say that one is always positive or one is always negative is typically the argument of someone who's trying to sell you something. there are time to have faith and there are times to have doubts, and there are times to have faith in spite of doubts.

Nothing is trying to be sold. In any situation where you're trying to find an answer to something you don't know... it's necessary to doubt and question. Proof of that will be in your reaction to this very statement... in order to see if it's valid or not, the first thing you will do is doubt and question it.

born_democrat

06-11-2004, 07:19 AM

you all, make good points, especialy the pro-religion ones! but i have found a particular religion that i have found dispute with, Jehovah's witnesses. In this religion they do not celebrate anything, if so then very little. My Aunty was a jehovah's witness and a very passionate one for i believe that she died for it! She had given birth to her second child and had lost alot of blood but refused to accept anyone elses blodd for religious reasons, this upset me for i know she would still be alive today if she had accepted it! she was only in her only 30's, but she died for her religion i think that this is wrong and is a great example of why i dont think religion sould take over ou lives.

however her first daughter who was also a Jehovah's witneess was able to stay remakably strong because of her faith while the family was falling to peices. so i ask u again, do we NEED religion? bear in mind that her daughter would not have had to stay strong if the mum had taken the blood and lived on!

A.Tomkins

Jard

06-11-2004, 07:20 AM

You don't NEED anything, except what minimum is required to survive.

Then the next question would be; do you NEED religion to survive, my answer is not in this life, but maybe in the next.

No one can tell you whether to believe in it, there no hard facts, its up to you to decide.

cpwill

06-11-2004, 07:20 AM

yes, we need religion; else, it would not have been a part of every single civilization since time began.

born_democrat

06-11-2004, 07:22 AM

even if people die because of it?
i do not believe that we NEED it..

Jard

06-11-2004, 07:26 AM

yes, we need religion; else, it would not have been a part of every single civilization since time began.

but thats not an arguement, it could have been a lie in every civilization since time began, the need for hope maybe or the need to beleive. Or the need to control :devil:

MikeD4o7

06-11-2004, 07:33 AM

yes, we need religion; else, it would not have been a part of every single civilization since time began.

So has war... it doesn't prove that it's something we need. I believe however that like war, it's something we need to get rid of.

cpwill

06-11-2004, 07:40 AM

even if people die because of it?

people rarely die for a religion.

they die for God.

i don't believe that we NEED it...

the majority of human history, as well as a study of christianity and an application of common sense suggests that you are incorrect; dependent, of course, on your goals. if you wish merely to survive until you die; then no, religion is likely not necessary, but heck, neither is food nor water nor air. it is when you start looking at what kind of life you wish to live that religion becomes necessary.

cpwill

06-11-2004, 07:41 AM

So has war... it doesn't prove that it's something we need. I believe however that like war, it's something we need to get rid of.

if there is ever a fundamental change in human nature, then perhaps we just may do it, too.

however, since that's unlikely enough to the point where it's not necessarily wise to trust it, it seems that we are stuck with war as a means to keep from being conquered until either humanity ceases to be as we know it, or the Second Coming.

cpwill

06-11-2004, 07:42 AM

but thats not an arguement, it could have been a lie in every civilization since time began, the need for hope maybe or the need to beleive. Or the need to control :devil:

:rolleyes:

mataj

06-11-2004, 07:44 AM

yes, we need religion; else, it would not have been a part of every single civilization since time began.If you look at the functions Catholic Church used to have in the bygone times you'll notice, that it was something like CNN, FOX, CIA, FBI, and Gallup combined. Since the intelligence gathering, public opinion polling, and propaganda are done by other means nowadays, there is no need for religion anymore. Modern shrines are TV sets, heaven is depicted in the movies & serials, and saints were replaced by trademarks.

cpwill

06-11-2004, 07:45 AM

and yet religion remains.

mataj

06-11-2004, 07:47 AM

and yet religion remains.As well as bycicles, sailboats, and hot air baloons.

MikeD4o7

06-11-2004, 07:52 AM

if there is ever a fundamental change in human nature, then perhaps we just may do it, too.

however, since that's unlikely enough to the point where it's not necessarily wise to trust it, it seems that we are stuck with war as a means to keep from being conquered until either humanity ceases to be as we know it, or the Second Coming.

I'm a little more optomistic than that. I can envision a world without war... it will just take a ton of cooperation and leadership. We have the ability to. We have the power to reason and we have the ability to empathize with other humans. I think the first step is educating people on the fact that their ethnicity and their nationality owes everything to simple chance and means virtually nothing. That above being an American, a German, or an Iranian... we're human, everything else is trivial.

Sounds corny, but I believe it can be done... although admittedly it will take a whole lot of changes from humanity's current state.

cpwill

06-11-2004, 07:52 AM

As well as bycicles, sailboats, and hot air baloons.

in euruope, yes. but the world is not europe;)

cpwill

06-11-2004, 07:56 AM

I'm a little more optomistic than that.

then you need to study history more.

I can envision a world without war...

i can too. it also has no people...

it will just take a ton of cooperation and leadership.

none of which you are likely to get unless some people and nations are forced against their will. IE; the only way to achieve peace, ironically, is via war.

We have the ability to. We have the power to reason and we have the ability to empathize with other humans.

and by your powers combined.....i am Captain Planet!:D

I think the first step is educating people on the fact that their ethnicity and their nationality owes everything to simple chance and means virtually nothing. That above being an American, a German, or an Iranian... we're human, everything else is trivial.

ah, so you're going to take over the management of each and every country's educational system? good luck convincing them to let you do that.

Sounds corny, but I believe it can be done... although admittedly it will take a whole lot of changes from humanity's current state.

drastic fundamental ones.

Jard

06-11-2004, 07:59 AM

cp - you say no people = peace/no wars

yet you then go on to say that war in ME is only solution to get peace. Does this peace envisage wiping out one race or two?

Achilles

06-11-2004, 08:01 AM

ah, so you're going to take over the management of each and every country's educational system? good luck convincing them to let you do that.

You gotta love the passion of these global social engineers!

MikeD4o7

06-11-2004, 08:06 AM

then you need to study history more.

I'm talking about the future and what is possible... not the past and where we've failed.

none of which you are likely to get unless some people and nations are forced against their will. IE; the only way to achieve peace, ironically, is via war.

Hence the importance of open democracies... I think that the only way the majority of a population can be effectively led into an aggressive war is if they're duped by their government.

and by your powers combined.....i am Captain Planet!

If I remember correctly, you're the one who believe in superheroes with supernatural powers, not me :p

ah, so you're going to take over the management of each and every country's educational system? good luck convincing them to let you do that.

Again, I'm talking about things that are possible in the future... not probable to accomplish in our lifetimes... but we can make the first steps, if we want to.

drastic fundamental ones.

so be it.

cpwill

06-11-2004, 08:08 AM

cp - you say no people = peace/no wars

yet you then go on to say that war in ME is only solution to get peace. Does this peace envisage wiping out one race or two?

God, i hope not. i would almost prefer a state of constant war. almost....

MikeD4o7

06-11-2004, 08:10 AM

mataj

06-11-2004, 08:12 AM

in euruope, yes. but the world is not europe;)Huh?? :confused: (http://www.hot-airballoons.com/)

cpwill

06-11-2004, 08:13 AM

I'm talking about the future and what is possible... not the past and where we've failed.

then you are playing with make believe and none of the things you are talking about will ever be grounded in reality, and they will never happen. if you want to know and be able to effect the future; study the past.

Hence the importance of open democracies... I think that the only way the majority of a population can be effectively led into an aggressive war is if they're duped by their government.

:lol: then again i would suggest a good history course for you.:)
in the civil war, the north aggressively attacked the south. did they do this because lincoln was an evil liar who duped them all?

If I remember correctly, you're the one who believe in superheroes with supernatural powers, not me :p

i believe in fully human heros with fully human powers. i also believe in a God, with fully natural powers. not sure quite what you meant by this.

Again, I'm talking about things that are possible in the future... not probable to accomplish in our lifetimes... but we can make the first steps, if we want to.

well it makes good sci-fi; but an unlikely reality. you have to convince 6 billion people and counting that you know what's better for them than they do.

so be it.

how ya gonna make them? people won't simply accept them, change virtually always (remember, that study of history) has to be forced.

cpwill

06-11-2004, 08:15 AM

In all seriousness, I'm not content with the notion that all of my descendents and all of humanity will be in a perpetual state of murdering each other on massive scales. If you don't think it's even possible to rid ourselves of it one day... then you have no reason to even try to work for it. I think that's sad.

if i accept the realities of this world then i have a better chance of actually producing some good. i think people who willingly throw off the possiblity of actually helping by choosing to throw off reality and live in a utopia mind-set are the ones who are sad.

Achilles

06-11-2004, 08:20 AM

MikeD4o7

06-11-2004, 08:26 AM

then you are playing with make believe and none of the things you are talking about will ever be grounded in reality, and they will never happen. if you want to know and be able to effect the future; study the past.

The idea of studying the past is to break the cycle of mistakes, not repeat them. The reason the mistakes are repeated so often is because people haven't learned the lessons yet... but I think that's very different from stating that it's impossible to ever learn them.

then again i would suggest a good history course for you.
in the civil war, the north aggressively attacked the south. did they do this because lincoln was an evil liar who duped them all?

Point taken, but this seems more like an exception than the rule.

i believe in fully human heros with fully human powers. i also believe in a God, with fully natural powers. not sure quite what you meant by this.

Water does not turn into wine. No amount of scientific experimentation will ever yield that result... it takes the intervention of the supernatural... it's why it's called a miracle.

well it makes good sci-fi; but an unlikely reality. you have to convince 6 billion people and counting that you know what's better for them than they do.

The vehement support of war in principle from you is a little surprising. Do you really think it takes that much convincing to get the common man to admit that war is ultimately not a good thing?

how ya gonna make them? people won't simply accept them, change virtually always (remember, that study of history) has to be forced.

Or by example. Even your own Jesus believed in that, I'm surprised you're so quick to deny the power of it. All I can do, as a human... is make an example out of my own life, actions, and words. I believe that if I even influence one person for the better, than I can consider myself a success. I know that there are numerous people that have been an example for me for the better... they're small steps, but they're steps.

MikeD4o7

06-11-2004, 08:32 AM

if i accept the realities of this world then i have a better chance of actually producing some good. i think people who willingly throw off the possiblity of actually helping by choosing to throw off reality and live in a utopia mind-set are the ones who are sad.

you believe in a utopia filled with humans... you call it heaven. I guess you assume that human nature is transformed in heaven to be perfectly good (maybe we lose our free will?) Personally I don't think that shooting for a world where there is simply no massive march of humans going off to kill their fellow humans is even that high of a goal to shoot for. You can wait for your utopia when you die if you want... I'll work towards mine while I live.

cpwill

06-11-2004, 08:36 AM

The idea of studying the past is to break the cycle of mistakes, not repeat them. The reason the mistakes are repeated so often is because people haven't learned the lessons yet... but I think that's very different from stating that it's impossible to ever learn them.

exactly, "If you don't study the past, you are doomed to repeat it." -George Santayana

Point taken, but this seems more like an exception than the rule.

democracies have gone to war for a wide variety of reasons. trying to apply what you believe happend in gulf war II to a universalistic approach is unlikely to produce accurate results.

Water does not turn into wine. No amount of scientific experimentation will ever yield that result... it takes the intervention of the supernatural... it's why it's called a miracle.

doesn't make it beyond nature at all. if you have complete control over both water and wine, then it makes sense that naturally you would be able to turn one into the other.

The vehement support of war in principle from you is a little surprising. Do you really think it takes that much convincing to get the common man to admit that war is ultimately not a good thing?

yes because first of all war is not always not a good thing, sometimes it has been a very good thing. secondly, because as long as people are people we're going to have people who are power hungry, greedy, paranoid, and some of these people will be able to gain control of groups of other people.

Or by example.

example can be a powerful tool, but it is anything but a sure-fire thing, and it works very very slowly and on a one-on-one scale. you are talking about a world-wide drastic change. at your rate, the idea to get rid of war is going to take many hundreds of thousands of years. minimum.

MikeD4o7

06-11-2004, 08:44 AM

example can be a powerful tool, but it is anything but a sure-fire thing, and it works very very slowly and on a one-on-one scale. you are talking about a world-wide drastic change. at your rate, the idea to get rid of war is going to take many hundreds of thousands of years. minimum.

Possibly, I never put a time limit on it.

yes because first of all war is not always not a good thing, sometimes it has been a very good thing. secondly, because as long as people are people we're going to have people who are power hungry, greedy, paranoid, and some of these people will be able to gain control of groups of other people.

War may have led to good things, but I personally think there's always another way (helping to stop a war that has already started is a bit different I think, WWI and WWII). I see war as basically a failure to find another way...but regardless it should be a last resort that everyone hangs their heads when that decision is made... when peaceful measures are finally given up on.

cpwill

06-11-2004, 08:49 AM

:shrug:

MikeD4o7

06-11-2004, 08:54 AM

oh yeah... and good morning :)

we have some pretty heated debates going on for 8AM

cpwill

06-11-2004, 08:56 AM

8? lol, my friend, here it is 7, and i need to go to sleep so i can wake up in time to cram for an exam:)

this place is so bad for my study habits;)

ultimate capita

06-11-2004, 02:32 PM

Religion is a very complicated debate but I will try to sum it all up as much as possible.

We do not need religion partly because religions have been the cause of so many unjustified wars as they were called the “crusaders”. The Christian religion once advocated slavery as the norm in society? But then it had to change that. Then came the killing of countless scientist that proved the earth went around the sun and not the other way round. Then they had to change that as well because it was proven wrong. I could go on all day but this is my point religion only kills it as not a force of good as narrow minded as they might be look so many countries in the middle east are ruled by religion were women cant drive in Saudi Arabia I don’t now why it something to do with the Quran but come to think of it surely god did not think of cars 2000 years before? Religion is interpreted in different ways more that often for all the bad reasons.

America has a president is blurring the lines between religion and state.

Sigmund Freud the famous psychologist said that “religion is only a part of the human evolution at this point in time humans are evolving as the centauries pass and the human minds will mature it will no longer need religion as its sole comforter.”

Karl Marx “religion is the opium of the world”. God :D how right he was.

Some of you need to stop reading the bible when you go to sleep at night it seriously is skewing your whole view of the world especially CPWILL. RELIGIOS FUNDEMANTALIST OR WHAT. He repeats the sayings of god like its some kind of mantra really stop CP it’ not good.

REPEAT AFTER ME THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GOD NO SUCH THING! IF YOU REPEAT FOR LONG ENOUGH YOU WILL ACTALLY BELIVE IT. :clap: :clap:

Instead of feeding yourself crap from the some book that was written 2 millenniums ago try to look at reality.

cpwill

06-11-2004, 02:48 PM

Religion is a very complicated debate but I will try to sum it all up as much as possible.

and i shall answer you as much as possible:)

We do not need religion partly because religions have been the cause of so many unjustified wars as they were called the “crusaders”.

we do not need governemnts because governments have been the cause (and leader of) so many unjustified wars, genocides, campaigns of extermination, human rights abuses, and social security taxation:)

hmmm....guess that logic doesnt' work......

The Christian religion once advocated slavery as the norm in society? But then it had to change that.

didn't "have" to at all, it did, and did so not only willingly, but well before western society did. christians were at the head of virtually every emancipation movement.

Then came the killing of countless scientist that proved the earth went around the sun and not the other way round.

countless scientists? you have evidence for this?

I could go on all day but this is my point religion only kills it as not a force of good

which is why, for instance there are no christian charities, the salvation army does not exist, and neither did those emancipation movements that eventually led to the end of slavery.:)

as narrow minded as they might be look so many countries in the middle east are ruled by religion were women cant drive in Saudi Arabia I don’t now why it something to do with the Quran

it actually has nothing whatsoever to do with the koran, as ramin will be so quick to point out to you. the koran is suprisingly modern on it's view of women. i suppose we could possibly trace this to muhammed's wife actually being his boss; but be that as it may be. the repression of women in arabic countries is purely cultural; pre-islam standards that have been re-applied.

but come to think of it surely god did not think of cars 2000 years before?

God did, humans didn't.

Religion is interpreted in different ways more that often for all the bad reasons.

for example, the alteration in the 16th century that each and every person should be able to read the bible and decide for themselves. :snort: giving people the ability to learn and choose for themself-what horrible hogwash!:rolleyes:

America has a president is blurring the lines between religion and state.

:lol: not hardly bub.

Sigmund Freud the famous psychologist said that “religion is only a part of the human evolution at this point in time humans are evolving as the centauries pass and the human minds will mature it will no longer need religion as its sole comforter.”

and newton was religions, as was mendel, even einstein. frued was a quack who slept with his customers, slept during sessions, and was more obsessed with sex than a 16-year-old.

Karl Marx “religion is the opium of the world”. God :D how right he was.

:laughter: you're using Marx as an expert witness?????

Some of you need to stop reading the bible when you go to sleep at night it seriously is skewing your whole view of the world especially CPWILL.

for real, here i am getting all these crazy lessons on "love thy neighbor", having faith, living in a community, making sure to look out for and help the poor "giving to all who ask of you" "forgiving those who harm me" and other obviously socially damaging things.:rolleyes:

RELIGIOS FUNDEMANTALIST OR WHAT. He repeats the sayings of god like its some kind of mantra really stop CP it’ not good.

i'm trying i'm trying, but it's just freaky how these verses seem to lead to a better life and a better world when i know they're so evil.....

cpwill

06-11-2004, 02:49 PM

REPEAT AFTER ME THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GOD NO SUCH THING! IF YOU REPEAT FOR LONG ENOUGH YOU WILL ACTALLY BELIVE IT. :clap: :clap:

REPEAT AFTER ME THERE IS NO SUCH PERSON AS YOUR MOTHER, THERE IS NO SUCH PERSON AS YOUR MOTHER, YOUR MOTHER DOES NOT EXIST AND NEVER HAS... if you repeat it enough, you will actually believe it :cool:

Instead of feeding yourself crap from the some book that was written 2 millenniums ago try to look at reality.

i do, but oddly, the more i look at reality, the more i'm reminded of this little book on my desktop.....:shrug::)

ultimate capita

06-11-2004, 03:53 PM

Surprisingly enough my mum is till here your method doesn’t work too bad. :shrug:

But I am to assume you tried to my method and you were so scared that it might have actually worked that you have to resort to petty stuff.

Come to think of it has you mum disappeared if you say it long enough she might just go and what a happy woman she will be. go on do her a favour:laughter:
:rofl:

cpwill

06-11-2004, 04:58 PM

Surprisingly enough my mum is till here your method doesn’t work too bad. :shrug:

prove it.:)

But I am to assume you tried to my method and you were so scared that it might have actually worked that you have to resort to petty stuff.

lol, not hardly. that tactic has been used plenty on me, it will succeed in convincing me that God does not exist about as well as it suceeded in convincing you that your mother does not exist.

Come to think of it has you mum disappeared if you say it long enough she might just go and what a happy woman she will be. go on do her a favour:laughter:
:rofl:

:raises eyebrow:

ultimate capita

06-11-2004, 05:24 PM

we do not need governemnts because governments have been the cause (and leader of) so many unjustified wars, genocides, campaigns of extermination, human rights abuses, and social security taxation:)

hmmm....guess that logic doesnt' work...........
What the hell is your point because dam I like what you're saying. Tax what a bummer.

didn't "have" to at all, it did, and did so not only willingly, but well before western society did. christians were at the head of virtually every emancipation movement............
Wasn’t Christianity based in the west what the hell I’ve got it wrong all this years? What is going on?

Every emancipation movement are you joking they said it was right for slavery to be committed here is the meaning of emancipation use it when it is warranted until then hold your fingers from writing it:
Emancipation noun
1. act of freeing: the act or process of setting somebody free or of freeing somebody from restrictions
2. being freed: the condition or fact of being set free or freed from some restriction

They did not do this until a couple decades a go they have only changed the original scriptures in the New Testament. I don’t now how they could have added new stuff but I suppose that one of them made the story up that they have met god in their dreams what a joke.
I want proof of this so called emancipation armies that you speak of so polemically.
Last year alone million of dollars worth of aid was stolen or went missing form Christian Aid and the Red Cross people are becoming rich because of so called emancipation crap.

countless scientists? you have evidence for this?

Does Galileo Galilei spring to mind or has the church forbidden you to talk to him or even acknowledge that he even exists let me enlighten you on what he done:

Galileo (1564-1642), Italian physicist and astronomer, who, with the German astronomer Johannes Kepler, initiated the scientific revolution that flowered in the work of the English physicist Sir Isaac Newton. Born Galileo Galilei, his main contributions were, in astronomy, the use of the telescope in observation, and the discovery of sunspots, lunar mountains and valleys, the four largest satellites of Jupiter, and the phases of Venus. In physics, he discovered the laws of falling bodies and the motions of projectiles. In the history of culture, Galileo stands as a symbol of the battle against authority for freedom of inquiry…………………….. Galileo's final book, Discourses Concerning Two New Sciences (trans. 1662-1665), which was published at Leiden in 1638, reviews and refines his earlier studies of motion and, in general, the principles of mechanics. The book opened a road that was to lead Newton to the law of universal gravitation that linked Kepler's planetary laws with Galileo's mathematical physics. Galileo became blind before it was published, and he died at Arcetri, near Florence, on January 8, 1642.

which is why, for instance there are no christian charities, the salvation army does not exist, and neither did those emancipation movements that eventually led to the end of slavery.:)posted answear on the above

God did, humans didn't.
And you now because you have been contacted by god? :eek:

for example, the alteration in the 16th century that each and every person should be able to read the bible and decide for themselves. :snort: giving people the ability to learn and choose for themself-what horrible hogwash!:rolleyes:
I was not referring to the 16th centaury but some people still can’t read and in you case evolution still has not taken place.

:lol: not hardly bub.
White house sources say that bush has recently had mood swings and more than often read verses from the bible while walking up and down in his office.

and newton was religions, as was mendel, even einstein. frued was a quack who slept with his customers, slept during sessions, and was more obsessed with sex than a 16-year-old.
He has been revered as the greatest sociologist of all time and he also found what little boys like yourself were attracted to their mothers at a young age.
In the same year, 1687, Newton helped lead Cambridge's resistance to the efforts of James II to make the university a Catholic institution. After the Glorious Revolution of 1688, which drove James from England, the university elected Newton one of its representatives in a special convening of the British Parliament. Are you talking about the same Newton? Seriously get you facts straight stop making things up and adding it your list of such things as god exists.

:laughter: you're using [i]Marx as an expert witness?????
Karl Marx the greatest philosopher of the 19th centaury who said that I was using him as “ an expert witness” I was merely giving two view points. Don’t need to get so defensive.

continued next post..............

ultimate capita

06-11-2004, 05:25 PM

for real, here i am getting all these crazy lessons on "love thy neighbor", having faith, living in a community, making sure to look out for and help the poor "giving to all who ask of you" "forgiving those who harm me" and other obviously socially damaging things.:rolleyes:
Didn’t you miss the “eye for an eye”. You go around saying love thy neighbour and people will think you are a loony.
i'm trying i'm trying, but it's just freaky how these verses seem to lead to a better life and a better world when i know they're so evil.....
A better world have you heard all those paedophile priests that pray on the young and defenceless a better world all ready and this was the emancipation you were talking about everything is crystal clear.

One last question wasn’t the KKK a racist as well as religious extremist group?
Are there still segregated schools in the south because I herd there are.

MikeD4o7

06-12-2004, 05:59 AM

Wasn’t Christianity based in the west what the hell I’ve got it wrong all this years? What is going on?

Every emancipation movement are you joking they said it was right for slavery to be committed here is the meaning of emancipation use it when it is warranted until then hold your fingers from writing it:
Emancipation [i mánssi páysh’n] noun
1. act of freeing: the act or process of setting somebody free or of freeing somebody from restrictions
2. being freed: the condition or fact of being set free or freed from some restriction

Methodists were in fact among one of the groups that first helped to establish the underground railroads to help slaves escape. The Methodist Episcopal Church in particular was very strongly abolitionist.

Galileo (1564-1642), Italian physicist and astronomer, who, with the German astronomer Johannes Kepler, initiated the scientific revolution that flowered in the work of the English physicist Sir Isaac Newton. Born Galileo Galilei, his main contributions were, in astronomy, the use of the telescope in observation, and the discovery of sunspots, lunar mountains and valleys, the four largest satellites of Jupiter, and the phases of Venus. In physics, he discovered the laws of falling bodies and the motions of projectiles. In the history of culture, Galileo stands as a symbol of the battle against authority for freedom of inquiry…………………….. Galileo's final book, Discourses Concerning Two New Sciences (trans. 1662-1665), which was published at Leiden in 1638, reviews and refines his earlier studies of motion and, in general, the principles of mechanics. The book opened a road that was to lead Newton to the law of universal gravitation that linked Kepler's planetary laws with Galileo's mathematical physics. Galileo became blind before it was published, and he died at Arcetri, near Florence, on January 8, 1642.

He wasn't put to death though...

I was not referring to the 16th centaury but some people still can’t read and in you case evolution still has not taken place.

No, you were referring to the present... and since the alteration has not been reverted since it was originally changed in the 16th century, cpwill's point stands.

He has been revered as the greatest sociologist of all time and he also found what little boys like yourself were attracted to their mothers at a young age.
In the same year, 1687, Newton helped lead Cambridge's resistance to the efforts of James II to make the university a Catholic institution. After the Glorious Revolution of 1688, which drove James from England, the university elected Newton one of its representatives in a special convening of the British Parliament. Are you talking about the same Newton? Seriously get you facts straight stop making things up and adding it your list of such things as god exists.

You assume that his opposition to make the university Catholic automatically implies that he was irreligious... which makes you wrong.

"The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the Prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify mens curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own Providence, not the Interpreters, be then manifested thereby to the world."
Observations Upon The Apocalypse Of St. John (published posthumously 1733)
--Isaac Newton

A better world have you heard all those paedophile priests that pray on the young and defenceless a better world all ready and this was the emancipation you were talking about everything is crystal clear.

That has just as much credibility as attributing Stalin's atrocities to his atheism. There is nothing in the Old Testament or the New Testament that encourages pedophilia... considering that is what the basis of Judaism and Christianity are centered around, you can maybe attribute some blame to the institution of the church, but definitely not to the belief system itself.

One last question wasn’t the KKK a racist as well as religious extremist group?
Are there still segregated schools in the south because I herd there are.

The problems of racism in American are and always have been social problems, not religious ones... regardless of whether the KKK or anyone else tries to insert religion into it.

jamesrage

06-12-2004, 06:26 AM

cpwill

06-12-2004, 06:28 AM

wow, i was going to answer... but of all people mikedo is on my side:)

thanks man:thumbsup:

MikeD4o7

06-12-2004, 06:32 AM

wow, i was going to answer... but of all people mikedo is on my side

thanks man

It would have been too easy for you, I can't let you have that much fun ;)

cpwill

06-12-2004, 06:33 AM

:lol: i'll admit, i was almost a little dissapointed:)

ultimate capita

06-12-2004, 09:50 AM

Methodists were in fact among one of the groups that first helped to establish the underground railroads to help slaves escape. The Methodist Episcopal Church in particular was very strongly abolitionist..
I am talking about the majority of churches at that time considered common practice. They were not even aloud to practice in a church the English clergy would not allow them to practice. So what is your point?

In the United States, as in Great Britain, division among Methodists came early. At the end of the 18th century, black members in Philadelphia withdrew from the church, where segregation had been forced upon them, (by the Methodists) and established an independent congregation; many others later followed suit. Agitation against the power of the bishops and a desire for lay representation caused another split in 1830. Slavery became the most divisive issue in the history of Methodism. Radical abolitionist Methodists (see Abolitionists) and southern Methodists split into separate groups which remained divided after the American Civil War (1861-1865). So not all Methodists were the angels you make them up to be.

He wasn't put to death though....
Going to jail at those times is almost as bad as being condemned to death.

No, you were referring to the present... and since the alteration has not been reverted since it was originally changed in the 16th century, cpwill's point stands..
I don’t care he can keep his point and I will stand be mine.

That has just as much credibility as attributing Stalin's atrocities to his atheism..
Actually you can because didn’t he not kill people for having a religion/ praying he sent priests to interim camps where they were worked to death if they were lucky to get there.
There is nothing in the Old Testament or the New Testament that encourages pedophilia... considering that is what the basis of Judaism and Christianity are centered around, you can maybe attribute some blame to the institution of the church, but definitely not to the belief system itself..
See I did not say that it was because of the religion that they done that. Do I in my post ever link the old/new testament with paedophilia? No. Which would render you post useless to me and of no importance.

The problems of racism in American are and always have been social problems, not religious ones... regardless of whether the KKK or anyone else tries to insert religion into it.
This is also answered on the Methodist part that they in the south sill favoured segregation. And the protestant (KKK) always hated the Catholics and would do the same as they done to the blacks hang them or through petrol bombs into their house.

ultimate capita

06-12-2004, 09:53 AM

"do we NEED religion?"

I would say yes.Religion instills moral values,without moral values we would disintagrate as a society.Without religion to instill moral values we would gradually over time loose those moral values bacause no one would care since there is not a god to fear.Moral values give us the simple basics as right and wrong.We have these values reguardless or not if we beleave in a god because those moral values were instilled into the community by ourselves or other.Currently our moral values are going down the drain with religion.
When we had religion and by that I mean when it was instilled in our everyday lives what did it did we benefit out of it?
In the middle ages when the church was at its peak with power there were moral depravities every where just the same as now but then it was just pushed underground and now it is just more accepted as part of society.

Why should we fear god? God says no sex before marriage but most of you will do it anyway. And if you do what eternal damnation in hell.

cpwill

06-13-2004, 02:54 AM

I am talking about the majority of churches at that time considered common practice. They were not even aloud to practice in a church the English clergy would not allow them to practice. So what is your point?

the american has alot of history listening to the church in england with grave agreement and then doing what it wants to anyway. what's you're point?

In the United States, as in Great Britain, division among Methodists came early. At the end of the 18th century, black members in Philadelphia withdrew from the church, where segregation had been forced upon them, (by the Methodists) and established an independent congregation; many others later followed suit. Agitation against the power of the bishops and a desire for lay representation caused another split in 1830. Slavery became the most divisive issue in the history of Methodism. Radical abolitionist Methodists (see Abolitionists) and southern Methodists split into separate groups which remained divided after the American Civil War (1861-1865). So not all Methodists were the angels you make them up to be.

of course not, most churches split over this issue. that in no way affects the fact that it was christians who led the emancipation movement.

Going to jail at those times is almost as bad as being condemned to death.

....dude.... galileo was under house arrest;)

I don’t care he can keep his point and I will stand be mine.

as that is a better than even trade i accept:)

Actually you can because didn’t he not kill people for having a religion/ praying he sent priests to interim camps where they were worked to death if they were lucky to get there.

no you can't because stalin went after the church for the same reason he went after first menchevicks, then old bolshevicks, then the military; they were a political threat. furthermore, the persecution of the church started under lenin, not stalin.

See I did not say that it was because of the religion that they done that. Do I in my post ever link the old/new testament with paedophilia? No. Which would render you post useless to me and of no importance.

you claimed that because of my religion i would like for people to be free to engage in pedophiliac acts. MikeDo was right on.

Why should we fear god? God says no sex before marriage but most of you will do it anyway. And if you do what eternal damnation in hell.

nope. i can safely say that whether or not you have sex prior to marriage is (while it is a sin) not the factor that determines salvation or not.

Ice_Burn

06-13-2004, 09:53 AM

"Do we need religion?"

Religion teaches one how to live. (The bible, the Koran, ect.) What the priest should be preaching is a lesson on life, a lesson on how you should live your life according to the religion's beliefs. That is what every religion does, it teaches how humanity should live and act.

Death, murder, sacrifice all come from religious teachings, from a religion that teaches people should live that way because their superior (God, Allah, ect.) says it's the right way to live.

So I guess the question shouldn't really be "do we NEED a religion", but, "Which religion is the right one?; Which religion teaches humanity on the right way to live?"

:confused: I myself am currently between religions, searching for the answer

ultimate capita

06-13-2004, 04:32 PM

cpwill

06-13-2004, 06:18 PM

nothing that the Omniscent Creator of the Universe could teach you? wow, well, at least you don't suffer from lack of self-image.;)

gonna respond to my post?

Religion teaches one how to live. (The bible, the Koran, ect.) What the priest should be preaching is a lesson on life, a lesson on how you should live your life according to the religion's beliefs. That is what every religion does, it teaches how humanity should live and act.

i'd think that was an excelent summation of one of the things religion is needed for. to help you in your development of your personal relationship with God is another.

Ice_Burn

06-14-2004, 12:21 AM

if there is one a god than ther is only one there cant be 100. all 3 major religions Judaism, catholicism and islam all are children of abraham and they split into three but people as per usaul have turned into "my religion is supereior to your's" and they have conflicts over it. in my opinon religion over time will go because i peronally do not believe in god and there is nothing he could teach me that i dont aleready no i now that it is bad to steal and commit mureder its common sence

I agree conflict is caused because of 'my religion is superior than yours' attitude.

That it is bad to steal and commit murder is now accepted as common sence because it was imposed on humanity by religion so long ago (there are a few religions that do justify it for religious purposes, Islam I believe is one, may be mistaken).

And maybe you don't feel religion has any more to teach you, but for the more 'spiritual' people, there is still hope of life after death, and like stated above, to help you in your development of your personal relationship with God.

cpwill

06-14-2004, 03:03 AM

conflict can be caused by that attitude; that in no way means that it is the most common reason for conflict.

Ice_Burn

06-14-2004, 03:25 AM

conflict can be caused by that attitude; that in no way means that it is the most common reason for conflict.

Yeah your right, that's what I meant to say (my bad)

cpwill

06-14-2004, 03:27 AM

:thumbsup:

crawfish

06-14-2004, 12:52 PM

ultimate capita

06-14-2004, 02:24 PM

gonna respond to my post?

i will i have just had lots of exams but i will reply tomorrow ;) u have my word on that :D

ultimate capita

06-15-2004, 06:23 PM

the american has alot of history listening to the church in england with grave agreement and then doing what it wants to anyway. what's you're point?
I was merely referring to the Methodists and what some of them considered common practice and I only said the Methodists in BRITAIN were not aloud to convene in the churches.

of course not, most churches split over this issue. that in no way affects the fact that it was christians who led the emancipation movement.
What all of the churches supported and encouraged emancipation movements.

....dude.... galileo was under house arrest;)
Are you sure I distinctly remember that he spent some time in prison that no doubt helped in making his health worse.

no you can't because stalin went after the church for the same reason he went after first menchevicks, then old bolshevicks, then the military; they were a political threat. furthermore, the persecution of the church started under lenin, not stalin.
Yes that is true partly but I didn’t say that the Stalin started the purges.

you claimed that because of my religion i would like for people to be free to engage in pedophiliac acts. MikeDo was right on.
What can you just rephrase that because I don’t completely understand.

ultimate capita

06-15-2004, 06:29 PM

I agree conflict is caused because of 'my religion is superior than yours' attitude.

That it is bad to steal and commit murder is now accepted as common sence because it was imposed on humanity by religion so long ago (there are a few religions that do justify it for religious purposes, Islam I believe is one, may be mistaken).

And maybe you don't feel religion has any more to teach you, but for the more 'spiritual' people, there is still hope of life after death, and like stated above, to help you in your development of your personal relationship with God.
How do you now that god exist has he shown himself to you I want proof to believe.

My mum is a catholic and my dad is a Muslim non of them imposed their religion on to me I now about both religions but I learned things nor through religion but through gut human instincts.

And plus Muslims advocate violence as much as the catholic church did remember eye for an eye.

Ice_Burn

06-15-2004, 08:31 PM

How do you now that god exist has he shown himself to you I want proof to believe.

My mum is a catholic and my dad is a Muslim non of them imposed their religion on to me I now about both religions but I learned things nor through religion but through gut human instincts.

And plus Muslims advocate violence as much as the catholic church did remember eye for an eye.

I was saying it as ONE can also use religion to help ONE in their personal relationship with God. Some people do feel at times to be closer to God (if it's their religion) with religious practices. Sry if the wrong message was sent out by me using 'you' instead of 'one'

And as I said in the post you quoted, few religions did/do justify criminal acts.

ultimate capita

06-16-2004, 05:36 PM

I understand what you are trying to say, I think, but there is so much contradictory evidence to the existence of god.

For instance in the evolutionary stages Darwin said that humans had evolved over millions of years from apes and this contradicts what that god created humans straight away but also the existence of dinosaurs contradict the existence of god because they existed before many humans ever came to existence.

I heard that some counties in America do not tech the evolutionary process that Charles Darwin came up with. This is what I just heard and I have no proof of this but I would certainly not mind if you could clarify this for me if you can.

The big bang theory states that the universe was created by a huge explosion and it has left its mark till this day through microwave radiation.

If you look at it there is much evidence that contradicts the existence of god.
In my opinion people believe in god because they are scared of death and this somehow gives them hope but in no way proves that god actually exists.

Are you a devoted Christian or any other religion you are “spiritual” connected to?

Ice_Burn

06-16-2004, 06:46 PM

About the existence of God, there technically is no evidence unless you are a believer of the bible, but to people who do believe in God, it is all the evidence they need. 'Example: emotions' There is no proof one can give on the subject of love, but the one loved may still believe it because of certain acts.... (unless emotions can already be proven in some scientific way which I am unaware of) So people may believe in God because of 'miracles'(and such) maybe? And also as you said, people may also believe in God because it gives them hope. Hope that life is not meaningless, that we are not just going to die and decay in the end period.

Have you ever read the book 'Ishmael' by Daniel Quinn??? I think you would be interested in it. It's supposed to be a philosophy book, but because a talking gorilla is involved, it's classified fiction. Anyway, it states religion (All religions) are myths. Just like the beliefs of the Greeks and their mythology, this is our mythology. It also questions the creation myth.

Well, these are my thoughts, and for your question, 'Are you a devoted Christian or any other religion you are “spiritual” connected to?' I actually do believe in evolution, but am currently looking for a religion for other purposes. My family is Catholic, but I don't find myself sharing the same beliefs.

cpwill

06-16-2004, 08:41 PM

I was merely referring to the Methodists and what some of them considered common practice and I only said the Methodists in BRITAIN were not aloud to convene in the churches.

well then what in the world does that have to do with the subject? firstly, methodism grew out of John Wesely's meetings that took place within the episcopal church, so i'm willing to bet you're talking about a very specific time period here, and secondly, what the heck does that have to do with anythying.

What all of the churches supported and encouraged emancipation movements.

all of them? no. however, that doesn't alter the fact that it was the churches who led the emancipation movement.

Are you sure I distinctly remember that he spent some time in prison that no doubt helped in making his health worse.

http://www.counterbalance.net/introvid/histogal-body.html

snip..."In fact Galileo never spent a single day in jail. During his trial he was housed in luxury in a cardinal's palace, and throughout his life some of his greatest supporters were cardinals and other churchmen."...snip

Yes that is true partly but I didn’t say that the Stalin started the purges.

ah, but stalin did start the purges, with the attacks on the Old Bolshevicks

What can you just rephrase that because I don’t completely understand.

here: i'll quote you: A better world have you heard all those paedophile priests that pray on the young and defenceless a better world all ready and this was the emancipation you were talking about everything is crystal clear.

How do you now that god exist has he shown himself to you I want proof to believe.

A) i know He exists because i have met Him.
B) if that is your attitude then you will never believe, for you will reject any evidence we bring you. even miracles will not convince you.

And plus Muslims advocate violence as much as the catholic church did remember eye for an eye.

and remember what the guy who is the foundation of christianity said about that.

I understand what you are trying to say, I think, but there is so much contradictory evidence to the existence of god.

no there's not; i think you are confusing "the Old Testament" with "God."

For instance in the evolutionary stages Darwin said that humans had evolved over millions of years from apes and this contradicts what that god created humans straight away but also the existence of dinosaurs contradict the existence of god because they existed before many humans ever came to existence.

which contradicts the literal interpretation of what was only ever intended to be a story anyway, and in no way challenges the existance of a Creator.

I heard that some counties in America do not tech the evolutionary process that Charles Darwin came up with. This is what I just heard and I have no proof of this but I would certainly not mind if you could clarify this for me if you can.

i live smack dab in the middle of the bible belt. you heard wrong.

The big bang theory states that the universe was created by a huge explosion and it has left its mark till this day through microwave radiation.

i know, isn't it cool? sounds almost like someone said LET THERE BE LIGHT! and, kaboom!

If you look at it there is much evidence that contradicts the existence of god.

when are you going to post it?

In my opinion people believe in god because they are scared of death and this somehow gives them hope but in no way proves that god actually exists.

well then you're opinion is innacurate, personally i can say that fear had roughly zilch to do with my decision to put my faith in God; and the motivations of other christians are just as varied. do your parents walk around in a state of perpetual fear?

Patriot

06-16-2004, 08:54 PM

i am not an atheist, i totally believ that a God exists! i also believe there was a Jesus, but i am only 16 and yet i ask myself the question why we should live our lives by something that was written hundreds of years ago?! my parents are christian and encourage me to come to church with them but i dont see the point, the pastors just say the same thing every time and there is nothing there for me to do that i can't do at home!

i believe that religion causes unessecary conflict,deaths and dispute, if we could all just say we believe in a God and leave it at that the world would have less problems to worry about and a whole lot less discrimination!

A.Tomkins

One way to look at religion is that it's how we live, and theology is what we know. A person may have a Ph.D in a specific theology, and not be a religious person, or a person who practicies said religion.

Theology = principles or values or knowledge or truths, whereas religion = practice of said principles or the way we live.

Here is a favorite quote of mine by a leader of my Church about religion:

And may I say that the only way to gain true religion is to receive it from the Lord. True religion is revealed religion; it is not a creation of man’s devising; it comes from God.

Man did not create God, nor can he redeem himself. No man can resurrect himself or assign himself to an inheritance in a heavenly kingdom. Salvation comes from God, on his terms, and the things men must do to gain it can be known only by revelation.

God stands revealed or he remains forever unknown, and the things of God are and can be known only by and through the Spirit of God.

True religion deals with spiritual things. We do not come to a knowledge of God and his laws through intellectuality, or by research, or by reason. I have an average mind—one that is neither better nor worse than the general run of mankind. In the realm of intellectual attainment I have a doctor’s degree, and I hope my sons after me will reach a similar goal. In their sphere, education and intellectuality are devoutly to be desired.

But when contrasted with spiritual endowments, they are of but slight and passing worth. From an eternal perspective what each of us needs is a Ph.D. in faith and righteousness. The things that will profit us everlastingly are not the power to reason, but the ability to receive revelation; not the truths learned by study, but the knowledge gained by faith; not what we know about the things of the world, but our knowledge of God and his laws.

Joseph Smith said that a man could learn more about the things of God by looking into heaven for five minutes than by reading all the books ever written upon the subject of religion. Religion is something which must be experienced.

I know people who can talk endlessly about religion but who have never had a religious experience. I know people who have written books about religion but who have about as much spirituality as a cedar post. Their interest in gospel doctrine is to defend their own speculative views rather than to find out what the Lord thinks about whatever is involved. Their conversations and their writings are in the realm of reason and the intellect; the Spirit of God has not touched their souls; they have not been born again and become new creatures of the Holy Ghost; they have not received revelation.

crawfish

06-17-2004, 12:16 PM

ultimate capita

06-17-2004, 03:37 PM

all of them? no. however, that doesn't alter the fact that it was the churches who led the emancipation movement.
Well I am not disputing that they didn’t start it. Anyways why shouldn’t they have started it they created a atmosphere of slavery and some of them so the wrongs of their ways and decided to change.

http://www.counterbalance.net/introvid/histogal-body.html

snip..."In fact Galileo never spent a single day in jail. During his trial he was housed in luxury in a cardinal's palace, and throughout his life some of his greatest supporters were cardinals and other churchmen."...snip

I did not look at your website because there was no need because what I have read tell me otherwise yet I do concede the he did spent the rest of his life in house arrest after spending some time in prison:

“……Galileo was nevertheless compelled in 1633 to abjure and was sentenced to life imprisonment (and some time afterwards commuted to permanent house arrest).”

here: i'll quote you: A better world have you heard all those paedophile priests that pray on the young and defenceless a better world all ready and this was the emancipation you were talking about everything is crystal clear.

Yes and what is your point I did say that and it still stands on the grounds that I did not say because of their religion they must be paedophiles I was merely sating they were priest and said that is this the emancipation you are talking about.

.[/Q]A) i know He exists because i have met Him..

:lol: :lol: :lol: :laughter: :laughter: :laughter: :laughter::laughter:
B) if that is your attitude then you will never believe, for you will reject any evidence we bring you. even miracles will not convince you.
What kind of miracles that someone put a hand over a blind person and then out of nowhere the persons can see again. Now you are just pulling rabbits out of the hat. Stop it it is not going to happen.

On your second point what evidence bring forth evidence and lets ee if it stands.

and remember what the guy who is the foundation of christianity said about that.
No I don’t.

no there's not; i think you are confusing "the Old Testament" with "God."
Isn’t the testament meant to be an interpretation of what god has said?

i live smack dab in the middle of the bible belt. you heard wrong.
No offence but I would rather someone who is not so hooked on religion as you answer the question.

i know, isn't it cool? sounds almost like someone said LET THERE BE LIGHT! and, kaboom!
And I suppose you could prove this……………………………………………… nope guess you can’t.

when are you going to post it?
I did post it when I posted what Charles Darwin found and the big bang.

well then you're opinion is innacurate, personally i can say that fear had roughly zilch to do with my decision to put my faith in God; and the motivations of other christians are just as varied. do your parents walk around in a state of perpetual fear?
And I did say “in my opinion” did I not.

And no my parents to don’t live under a state of perpetual fear on the contrary actually. But I am to assume that you live under a blanket and a state of perpetual obedience to “GOD” who in fact you cant prove he even exists.

cpwill

06-18-2004, 02:08 AM

Well I am not disputing that they didn’t start it. Anyways why shouldn’t they have started it they created a atmosphere of slavery and some of them so the wrongs of their ways and decided to change.

:rolleyes:the church hardly "created' an atmosphere of slavery; slavery has been in existance since roughly the dawn of civilization.

I did not look at your website because there was no need because what I have read tell me otherwise

indeed; you already know what you want to think; why would you ever possibly need any further education, or to acknowledge any possible counterevidence?

yet I do concede the he did spent the rest of his life in house arrest after spending some time in prison: “……Galileo was nevertheless compelled in 1633 to abjure and was sentenced to life imprisonment (and some time afterwards commuted to permanent house arrest).”

and that imprisonment was served where?

Yes and what is your point I did say that and it still stands on the grounds that I did not say because of their religion they must be paedophiles I was merely sating they were priest and said that is this the emancipation you are talking about.

i fail to see how emancipation of slaves ties into a catholic church scandal involving pedophiliac priests. care to enlighten me, oh-wise-one?:)

cpwill

06-18-2004, 02:09 AM

:lol: :lol: :lol: :laughter: :laughter: :laughter: :laughter::laughter:

my what an intellegent, cutting, and incredibly witty (not to mention mature and completely original) response; certainly i am defeated.:rolleyes:

cpwill

06-18-2004, 02:10 AM

What kind of miracles that someone put a hand over a blind person and then out of nowhere the persons can see again. Now you are just pulling rabbits out of the hat. Stop it it is not going to happen.

hey, just because you don't want to believe don't mean it doesn't happen;)

On your second point what evidence bring forth evidence and lets ee if it stands.

lol, please, i tell you what i've seen and (based on what i've seen of you so far) what i'm going to get will be a repeat of 5 lines above.

No I don’t.

Matthew 5:38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Isn’t the testament meant to be an interpretation of what god has said?

some of the texts, yes, others, no.

No offence but I would rather someone who is not so hooked on religion as you answer the question.

you calling me a liar?:) and here i would have thought you would have expected someone as "hooked up as me" on religion to not only proudly proclaim we didn't teach evolution, but defend not doing so.

very well, find someone else on this board who has recent experience in the Southern Public School system and see if you can find one who claims evolution wasn't taught at their school.

And I suppose you could prove this……………………………………………… nope guess you can’t.

however, as neither can you, and there is more evidence in favor than against, i'll stick to my side:)

I did post it when I posted what Charles Darwin found and the big bang.

charles darwin himself gave the credit to God for evolution, and i fail to see at all how a big bang theory discredits the idea of a creator. small-minded people are always using "how" God does things to try to prove that God doesn't do things.

And I did say “in my opinion” did I not.

yes you did, and you're opinion is wrong.:)

And no my parents to don’t live under a state of perpetual fear on the contrary actually.

well then i'm suprised you even had that opinion at all, living with two counter-examples of it.

But I am to assume that you live under a blanket and a state of perpetual obedience to “GOD”

hah, i wish.

who in fact you cant prove he even exists.

buddy, i am more positive of God's existance than i am of yours.

ultimate capita

06-18-2004, 04:17 PM

:rolleyes:the church hardly "created' an atmosphere of slavery; slavery has been in existance since roughly the dawn of civilization.
They certainly advocated it.
Yes slavery has been around since the dawn of civilization but is it right for a church to say that it is right…………… I don’t think so somehow.

Still throughout this entire debate you have not yet admitted that the church/ and some Methodists saw slavery as justified all you do go around and around and not to the point.

:indeed; you already know what you want to think; why would you ever possibly need any further education, or to acknowledge any possible counterevidence?

Stop assuming of what you have no proof of. Try to stick to what I have written and comment on that, and not what you might think I am thinking or assume that I don’t need to learn anymore.

:and that imprisonment was served where?
And next you will want to now what cell he was in.
I now for a fact that he was imprisoned and if you want to find out what prison and what cell and what day and minute and second then be my guest to find out I would like to see were you find out.

:i fail to see how emancipation of slaves ties into a catholic church scandal involving pedophiliac priests. care to enlighten me, oh-wise-one?:)
Lol. So you realise that I did not say because of their religion they were paedophiles? :clap:

ultimate capita

06-18-2004, 04:18 PM

my what an intellegent, cutting, and incredibly witty (not to mention mature and completely original) response; certainly i am defeated.:rolleyes:
Glad to see that you have realised that you are defeated. I would not say my answer was that complex OR WITTY just could not find the word to say anything because well……… were you ok when you said that………………………………… :confused: :confused:

ultimate capita

06-18-2004, 04:31 PM

hey, just because you don't want to believe don't mean it doesn't happen;)
Well certainly if this walking saint exist: why it would be his mission to help millions of people with cancer, aids, blindness hell even the people that can’t walk and many other incurable diseases but he is probably in some loony asylum chanting and preaching that he was sent here by god and is his messenger to earth. :eek:

Matthew 5:38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
AND ………………… POINT BEING IS

some of the texts, yes, others, no.
So I guess I am not confusing all the texts now am I.

you calling me a liar?:) and here i would have thought you would have expected someone as "hooked up as me" on religion to not only proudly proclaim we didn't teach evolution, but defend not doing so.
I didn’t call any one a liar but once again you presume too much.

however, as neither can you, and there is more evidence in favor than against, i'll stick to my side:)
Were is this elusive evidence that you speak of? :shrug:

charles darwin himself gave the credit to God for evolution,

Charles Darwin through his book published in 1859 in On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection disapproved the catholic version of the story.
The most publicized attacks on Darwin's ideas, however, came not from scientists but from religious opponents. The thought that living things had evolved by natural processes denied the special creation of humankind and seemed to place humanity on a plane with the animals; both of these ideas were serious challenges to orthodox theological opinion.
So back to the point how can he credit god for evolution when he is actually challenging it and refuting it.
I am slightly confused of were you get this information from but I have a slight hunch hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…. CHURCH maybe. Trying to deny that it ever criticised anyone and disapproving as well as attacking their theories.

When the book was published there used heated debates with the church and Charles Darwin and at the end of each debate I suppose he gave credit to god for evolution?

and i fail to see at all how a big bang theory discredits the idea of a creator. small-minded people are always using "how" God does things to try to prove that God doesn't do things.
The big bang theory dispute the existence of god because is said that god created earth and the stars simultaneously and not with a huge explosion that can still be detected today

buddy, i am more positive of God's existance than i am of yours.
Yes and I guess I am not really taking to you am I ……………… WELCOME TO THE MATRIX WERE EVERYONE IS IN A STATE OF PERPETUAL SLEEP AND DO NOT EVEN NOW THAT THEY ARE EVEN TAKING TO EACH OTHER :) ;)

cpwill

06-18-2004, 08:08 PM

They certainly advocated it.
Yes slavery has been around since the dawn of civilization but is it right for a church to say that it is right…………… I don’t think so somehow.

or for christians to risk their lives to end it.?

Still throughout this entire debate you have not yet admitted that the church/ and some Methodists saw slavery as justified all you do go around and around and not to the point.

i fully admitted it, i also threw in the fact that the emancipation movements were led by christians.

Stop assuming of what you have no proof of. Try to stick to what I have written and comment on that, and not what you might think I am thinking or assume that I don’t need to learn anymore.

you said you had no need to look at any other sources because you'd already looked at sources and decided what you think.

And next you will want to now what cell he was in.

nope, just if you can actually identify a prison other than a comfortable house, or a cardinals mansion, that would be nice;)

I now for a fact that he was imprisoned

indeed, so why should you actually bother to check something as insiginicant as facts?:)

Lol. So you realise that I did not say because of their religion they were paedophiles? :clap:

no, you suggested that i was looking for freedom for them to be pedophiles.:)

or, at least i think you did, what you actually said didn't make much sense.

cpwill

06-18-2004, 08:09 PM

Glad to see that you have realised that you are defeated. I would not say my answer was that complex OR WITTY just could not find the word to say anything because well……… were you ok when you said that………………………………… :confused: :confused:

oh, trust me, i was more than fine;)

cpwill

06-18-2004, 08:21 PM

Well certainly if this walking saint exist: why it would be his mission to help millions of people with cancer, aids, blindness hell even the people that can’t walk and many other incurable diseases but he is probably in some loony asylum chanting and preaching that he was sent here by god and is his messenger to earth. :eek:

lol, no, not hardly. people tend to either chuckle (as you do) or say "oh, that's nice, guess it's one of those things" and then do their best to forget about it.

AND ………………… POINT BEING IS

that your claim that the church authorized the use of revenge was innacurate.

[qutoe]So I guess I am not confusing all the texts now am I. [/quote]

i have no idea what texts confuse you v. what texts don't. if you want to go with a text-by-text, i'm pretty good with the histories, i can talk somewhat about the prophets, but when we get into psalms/ecclesiastes/proverbs i haven't really done much study yet.

I didn’t call any one a liar

no, you simply suggested that i was reporting deliberate untruths:)

Were is this elusive evidence that you speak of? :shrug:

you live in a world inhabited by hundreds of millions of people who claim to have met an individual; i'd say that's a nice hunk of evidence in favor of the individuals' existance.

Charles Darwin through his book published in 1859 in On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection disapproved the catholic version of the story.
The most publicized attacks on Darwin's ideas, however, came not from scientists but from religious opponents. The thought that living things had evolved by natural processes denied the special creation of humankind and seemed to place humanity on a plane with the animals; both of these ideas were serious challenges to orthodox theological opinion.

yup, they were insisting on a literal reading of genesis; which we've since learned through text-analysis and empirical history is the wrong approach.:)

So back to the point how can he credit god for evolution when he is actually challenging it and refuting it.

he didn't refute that God didn't create evolution, instead that's what he suggested.

I am slightly confused of were you get this information from but I have a slight hunch hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…. CHURCH maybe.

ever read Origin?:rolleyes: tell you what, i'll save you time; flip to the last chapter.

Trying to deny that it ever criticised anyone and disapproving as well as attacking their theories.

actually the catholic church has admitted they were wrong in the persecution of scientists, and offered public apologies; but, then, i am not catholic so i'm not positive how it would apply to me.

When the book was published there used heated debates with the church and Charles Darwin and at the end of each debate I suppose he gave credit to god for evolution?

darwin was a pretty old guy by the time he published his book; it was decades after his trip in the HMS Beagle, and only after another guy (who's name currently escapes me) published something similar; i doubt he even took part in many of the debates. as stated above, i was referring to his actual book.

The big bang theory dispute the existence of god because is said that god created earth and the stars simultaneously and not with a huge explosion that can still be detected today

A) now who's insisting on a literal reading of genesis;)
B) i'd imagine the creation of the earth and the stars and all matter would probably involve quite a bit of an explosion, wouldn't you?

Yes and I guess I am not really taking to you am I ……………… WELCOME TO THE MATRIX WERE EVERYONE IS IN A STATE OF PERPETUAL SLEEP AND DO NOT EVEN NOW THAT THEY ARE EVEN TAKING TO EACH OTHER :) ;)

i experience you through words typed in a screen. my experiences with God are much more direct.

ultimate capita

06-19-2004, 10:01 AM

or for christians to risk their lives to end it.?
As I said why shouldn’t they have risked their lives after advocating it?

I fully admitted it, i also threw in the fact that the emancipation movements were led by christians.
Yes I now that but what is your point?

you said you had no need to look at any other sources because you'd already looked at sources and decided what you think.
Yes I said that on the ground that I knew my source to be credibly and then you jumped to the conclusion that I suddenly new everything and did not need any further education

nope, just if you can actually identify a prison other than a comfortable house, or a cardinals mansion, that would be nice;)
Do you now it happened so long ago that I don’t think they have the name of the prison he went to but certainly is assume that you have the name of the house.

indeed, so why should you actually bother to check something as insiginicant as facts?:)
And I did say that I new for a fact so I wouldn’t consider it that insignificant as you might.

no, you suggested that i was looking for freedom for them to be pedophiles.:)

or, at least i think you did, what you actually said didn't make much sense.
NO THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING

ultimate capita

06-19-2004, 10:04 AM

oh, trust me, i was more than fine;)
I depends on what you interpret as fine.
FINE could be highly questionable for someone like you AND IN YOUR POSTION.
:)

ultimate capita

06-19-2004, 10:20 AM

lol, no, not hardly. people tend to either chuckle (as you do) or say "oh, that's nice, guess it's one of those things" and then do their best to forget about it.
Yes that is true there are those kinds of people and there are people like you who live in a fantasy world of pixies and the red nose reindeer flying around the world in 6 hours and on top of that delivering presents to a couple of billion or so people……………… well all I can say those people that try to forget and chuckle they are living in the real world were reality is common practice.

That was not my question my question was why this “saint” doesn’t help the millions of people suffering.

that your claim that the church authorized the use of revenge was innacurate.
Well dint they although I MEAN ALTHOUGH Matthew said “5:38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” It doesn’t mean that eye for an eye is incorrect because before he said that the church did keep the saying and therefore leads me to the reasonable conclusion the church indirectly advocated violence through it.

[qutoe]So I guess I am not confusing all the texts now am I.

i have no idea what texts confuse you v. what texts don't. if you want to go with a text-by-text, i'm pretty good with the histories, i can talk somewhat about the prophets, but when we get into psalms/ecclesiastes/proverbs i haven't really done much study yet.[/QUOTE]
Ecclesiastes
Book of the Bible: a book in the Bible that discusses the futility of life and how to be a God-fearing person.
WOUDN’T THE CURCH LIKE THAT.

Yes well you seemed hell as sure that I was confusing god with the old testament but this is a nice change for once you not jumping to conclusions as per usual

no, you simply suggested that i was reporting deliberate untruths:)
but I never said anything along the lines of liar.

you live in a world inhabited by hundreds of millions of people who claim to have met an individual; i'd say that's a nice hunk of evidence in favor of the individuals' existance.
That doesn’t prove anything. And are you saying that all those millions of people have experienced a miracle in some way or another of meeting god or are they people all in search for a headline.

But yet religion is on the decline and all this compelling would surely make more people convert unless in fact there is no compelling evidence but just people that can’t tell the difference between a dream of the sub-conscious and reality.

he didn't refute that God didn't create evolution, instead that's what he suggested.
He suggested which leads to the conclusion that he might later on refute it.

ever read Origin?:rolleyes: tell you what, i'll save you time; flip to the last chapter.

I have read the summary but then again I am only 16.

actually the catholic church has admitted they were wrong in the persecution of scientists, and offered public apologies; but, then, i am not catholic so i'm not positive how it would apply to me.

So what are you then?

A) now who's insisting on a literal reading of genesis;)
So how do explain the theory that god created the earth. And how do you suggest we interpret the bible in what way enlighten me

B) i'd imagine the creation of the earth and the stars and all matter would probably involve quite a bit of an explosion, wouldn't you?
Hence the name of the big bang

i experience you through words typed in a screen. my experiences with God are much more direct.
Am glad to hear it. ;)

cpwill

06-20-2004, 04:07 AM

As I said why shouldn’t they have risked their lives after advocating it?

there would be many reasons not to risk your life, not least of which being that you could lose it. christians did so anyway. in an openly racist society which persecuted those who disagreed, they were the first to be willing to risk it all in order to improve humanity.

Yes I now that but what is your point?

one of them is that sometimes there are silent "k"'s. and my point is that the simple accusation that the church stands for an evil past is ignorant. for the rest, see above.

Yes I said that on the ground that I knew my source to be credibly and then you jumped to the conclusion that I suddenly new everything and did not need any further education

sorry, but your word v. an actual quoted historical source; you lose.

nevertheless, my point stands, and better than ever. your claim of "countless scientists" who were put to death or otherwise persecuted by the church has shrunk to one example of whom you are not even able to show that he was put in jail.

Do you now it happened so long ago that I don’t think they have the name of the prison he went to but certainly is assume that you have the name of the house.

it's named in the source i quoted;)

And I did say that I new for a fact so I wouldn’t consider it that insignificant as you might.

of course not, you can never be wrong:)

NO THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING

no, that is what you are accusing me of saying.

cpwill

06-20-2004, 04:11 AM

I depends on what you interpret as fine.
FINE could be highly questionable for someone like you AND IN YOUR POSTION.
:)

:lol: and just what the heck do you mean by that? in my position? i must have been fine because i was in my position?

questionable?:lol:

Blueangel

06-20-2004, 05:13 AM

i believe that religion causes unessecary conflict,deaths and dispute, if we could all just say we believe in a God and leave it at that the world would have less problems to worry about and a whole lot less discrimination!

A.Tomkins :clap:
Good to see someone thinking for themself and coming to a rational conclusion.

I tried to return to the church I was brought up in after a few years away, and found the entire Mass to be nothing more than a mind numbing mantra.
My conclusion is that organised religion is man made and has no place in my life. I choose to not partake but have respect for all religious people who truely live in a good manner and find solace in their faith. I'm agnostic. I don't know one way or the other...but I'm happy with the choice I made.

I guess my religion is love, compassion and inclusiveness, not division and segregation.

cpwill

06-20-2004, 06:01 AM

Yes that is true there are those kinds of people and there are people like you who live in a fantasy world of pixies and the red nose reindeer flying around the world in 6 hours and on top of that delivering presents to a couple of billion or so people……………… well all I can say those people that try to forget and chuckle they are living in the real world were reality is common practice.

let me get this straight; you are suggesting that millions of people the world over and throughout history including some of the greatest minds humanity has ever produced all have the mentality of five-year-olds compared to you?

That was not my question my question was why this “saint” doesn’t help the millions of people suffering.

A) God is not a saint.
B) He has.

Well dint they although I MEAN ALTHOUGH Matthew said “5:38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” It doesn’t mean that eye for an eye is incorrect because before he said that the church did keep the saying and therefore leads me to the reasonable conclusion the church indirectly advocated violence through it.

A) through the teachings of Jesus, no, we now know that "an eye for an eye" is wrong, for "vengeance is mine, says the Lord".
B) the church didn't exist prior to Jesus' saying this, so unless you are willing to argue that christians have secretly invented time-travel; your claim that the church advocated violence on the basis of "an eye for an eye" prior to Jesus' life is rather self-contradicting.

Ecclesiastes
Book of the Bible: a book in the Bible that discusses the futility of life and how to be a God-fearing person.
WOUDN’T THE CURCH LIKE THAT.

what, a book on how an athiestic self-pleasuring lifestyle is ultimately pointless and on better ways to live a Godly life? yeah, i'd say that'd be right up the Church's alley.

Yes well you seemed hell as sure that I was confusing god with the old testament but this is a nice change for once you not jumping to conclusions as per usual

you claimed that a scientific theory which contradicts a literal reading of the creation story in genises is proof/evidence that God does not exist; a fairly clear case of transference if i've ever seen one.

but I never said anything along the lines of liar.

no, you simply suggested that i was deliberately saying something i knew not to be true:).

That doesn’t prove anything. And are you saying that all those millions of people have experienced a miracle in some way or another of meeting god or are they people all in search for a headline.

considering that "YOUNG WOMAN PRAYS AND RECIEVES ANSWER" is hardly a headline you read in the paper everyday, if at all, i would consider that it is much more likely the former than the later.

:lol: millions of people all seeking the headlines by devoting their life to God....lol, what about the people before newspapers?;)

But yet religion is on the decline

only in selected areas, such as western europe. worldwide, the church is growing. basically, as a church moves away from Jesus' message and comes more and more to reflect society, thus will it die. this can be seen by a case study of the church's in america (since america has both growing and dying church's it makes an excelent source of case-studies); noticing which ones report declining membership v. growing membership.

and all this compelling would surely make more people convert unless in fact there is no compelling evidence but just people that can’t tell the difference between a dream of the sub-conscious and reality.

not really; people (as stated above) have a real knack for not thinking seriously about something, but rather saying "oh that's nice" and then putting it out of their mind.

He suggested which leads to the conclusion that he might later on refute it.

lol, are you saying that Darwin deliberately put something in his book so that later on he could refute his own research? considering that he published when he was far too old to do any more?

I have read the summary but then again I am only 16.

well then i suggest it to you, specifically that last chapter.

So what are you then?

Christian:)

So how do explain the theory that god created the earth.

seems rather self explanitory; God created the Earth.

And how do you suggest we interpret the bible in what way enlighten me

the way it was intended to be read, to pass on the Truth.

Hence the name of the big bang

precisely

Am glad to hear it. ;)

:angel:

cpwill

06-20-2004, 06:05 AM

:clap:
Good to see someone thinking for themself and coming to a rational conclusion.

that is indeed what these forums are about:)

I tried to return to the church I was brought up in after a few years away, and found the entire Mass to be nothing more than a mind numbing mantra.

:lol: i had some friends (who are both christians) who went to england for a summer to study at oxford ("corupus christi" or something like that). they said when they went to church they were almost pulling their hair out it was so awful.

worship was intended to be anything but boring. the church of england (europe, actually) has rather lost it's way; and thus has ceased to actually be about anything. that is the source of your boredom.

My conclusion is that organised religion is man made and has no place in my life.

politics is man-made; do you vote?;)

I choose to not partake but have respect for all religious people who truely live in a good manner and find solace in their faith. I'm agnostic. I don't know one way or the other...but I'm happy with the choice I made.

I guess my religion is love, compassion and inclusiveness, not division and segregation.

then perhaps you are closer to christianity than you know.