Religion is a saftey net, try to land safely

[Soley says]

I feel that too many people these days rely on religion as a safety net. life is a scary process and we all have to face challenges. I have noticed in my so-far brief life that many people when faced with a challenge or problem tend to turn to religion. After all when in fear or in need or help, turn to the only person who has enough power to help you.
I think of myself as a very level headed, open minded person, and bleive that there is two sides to every story, in this case: I believe that religion is important to society and culture. without it there would be many problems, not only does it give people a sense of individuality but also lays down rules for people.
in contrast you could also point out that it causes divisions, just look at Ireland for example, where things have now calmed down.
i can understand why people turn to religion, but in the end, i can't help feeling that these people are weaker, and i do not mean any disrespect, but everyone has to deal with life, and what do you do when religion fails you.

i also struggle to understnad how they can be so sure there is a God, when science clearly prooves against it, i personally believe there is someone with a deal of power controling events that occour, but have serious doubts on their actual "power", after all, isn't it choice that allows us to be who we are.

in my mind i can clearly see that although religion is important to society there are some MAJOR flaws in it.

[ultimate capita]

I feel that too many people these days rely on religion as a safety net. life is a scary process and we all have to face challenges. I have noticed in my so-far brief life that many people when faced with a challenge or problem tend to turn to religion. After all when in fear or in need or help, turn to the only person who has enough power to help you.
I think of myself as a very level headed, open minded person, and bleive that there is two sides to every story, in this case: I believe that religion is important to society and culture. without it there would be many problems, not only does it give people a sense of individuality but also lays down rules for people.
in contrast you could also point out that it causes divisions, just look at Ireland for example, where things have now calmed down.
i can understand why people turn to religion, but in the end, i can't help feeling that these people are weaker, and i do not mean any disrespect, but everyone has to deal with life, and what do you do when religion fails you.

i also struggle to understnad how they can be so sure there is a God, when science clearly prooves against it, i personally believe there is someone with a deal of power controling events that occour, but have serious doubts on their actual "power", after all, isn't it choice that allows us to be who we are.

in my mind i can clearly see that although religion is important to society there are some MAJOR flaws in it.
Firsts of all let me welcome you SOLEY SAYS

I think as far as I goes you are in way contradicting yourself first of all you say that in a time of weakness people turn to someone more powerful and then you say they are weak or you say that religion is very important in the society and then it people who support it are very weak I don’t quite get it maybe if you expanded I could see it more clearly.:thanks:


…………………………………………………………………………...................... .....................
A SAPIENT LEGEND FROM THE OREINT TELLS US THAT THE SPIRITS OF EVIL POWER LIE IMPRISONED IN THE OCEAN’S NIGHT, SEALED IN BY THE HAND OF THE ANXIOUS GOD, TILL ONCE IN A MILLENNIUM LUCK MIGHT GRANT THE DECISION TO A SINLGE FISHERMAN WHO COULD SET FREE THOSE BOUND IF HE DID NOT PROMPTLY FLING BACK HIS FIEND INTO THE SEA. THAT FATE HAD BEEN DECREED FOR MY FATHER. IT ONCE LAY WITHIN THE STREGTH OF HIS WILL TO PLUNGE THE DEAMON BACK INTO IT’S DURANCE. BUT MY FATHER BROKE AWAY THE SEAL. HE DID NOT SEE THE RISING BREATH OF EVIL. HE LET THE DEAMON SOAR INTO THE WORLD.


----ALBRECHT HAUSHOFER, 1945

[Michele]

yes and it can also be a plague dependent upon whom God's wrath is squarely fixated upon and which religious zealots are doing the interpreting. I guess, like any law the loopholes were written right in. And therefore must be monitored by outside secularists, atheists, and agnostics alike.

Because if left to the bible thumpers...and the religious fanatics of all stripes... we got problems.

[Gale_Force15]

And, assuming religion does exist? You call yourselves open-minded, but what you mean is you'll give people who say differently a pat on the head and you opinion and send them on their way.

To be truly open-minded, you can't believe in anything, but embrace all views as correct, and this thread simply proves that you people work best when you get together and pat each other on the back, say something could be true but imply it isnt, and then go about your day feeling good for yourself.

[cpwill]

i would also point out that the logic is self-contradictory; people lean on religion to make them stronger, but they are weak? didn't you just say they became stronger?

[Duo_Maxwell]

"Prayer is the last sanuctary of the Doomed."


i would also point out that the logic is self-contradictory; people lean on religion to make them stronger, but they are weak? didn't you just say they became stronger?

I think YOUR logic is flawed. Just joking Cpwill. No, seriously, running to religion in times of stress is a form of dependency. Sure, it gets you through, but so do crutches not to mention drugs. Religion may give you strength for the time you need it, but not being self-sufficent is a weakness that only expands overtime. Like he said, what happens when religion fails you? Religion obviously has failed people throughout history. Without a lifetime of cultivating moral, physical, and ethical self-sufficency, one is in quite a ditch when religion evaporates.

Gale_Force15: Your post is a reason why I won't sign Hydrok's petition to revoke your posting privilages. :beer: :clap:

[Michele]

And, assuming religion does exist? You call yourselves open-minded, but what you mean is you'll give people who say differently a pat on the head and you opinion and send them on their way.

To be truly open-minded, you can't believe in anything, but embrace all views as correct, and this thread simply proves that you people work best when you get together and pat each other on the back, say something could be true but imply it isnt, and then go about your day feeling good for yourself.

quite frankly I haven't a clue what you are talking about or to whom. I consider myself an agnostic who does embrace all of the religions as well as a number of spiritual philosophies without given my undivided attention to any. it is the dogma and doctrine and insistance that one interpretation rules over the other wherein I find all of them are culprits in inspiring both dependency, non-thinking as well as hatred and yet I do not negate everything nor do I ask that any of them be abolished, as some here who are supposedly more religious than I do.

It is those that will embrace doctrine solely that I find to be the least open minded, the least wise, and the least able to preach regardless of how much chapter and verse they have committed to memory. Yet sometimes these are the ones who seem to believe they are the most able to not only preach but convert others while they chastise whole segments of society and cultures in the world and not based on charity or goodliness but based on the exclusivity of the one doctrine they have chosen to embrace as the only truth over all others.

so what were you saying about openmindedness and patting each other on the back... are you not open to that when criticisms are involved?

[cpwill]

"Prayer is the last sanuctary of the Doomed."

on this, at least, we agree:)

I think YOUR logic is flawed. Just joking Cpwill. No, seriously, running to religion in times of stress is a form of dependency. Sure, it gets you through, but so do crutches not to mention drugs.

so who is more mobile? the lame man using crutches or the lame man trying vainly to hobble around without them?

Religion may give you strength for the time you need it, but not being self-sufficent is a weakness that only expands overtime.

interesting logic; so, how do you explain the strength if they are weak? surely you are not accepting the possibility that inner strength comes from God?

honestly, this is like arguing that a single soldier is more effective than a squad of soldiers.

Like he said, what happens when religion fails you?

lean on God; He never will.

Religion obviously has failed people throughout history.

religion yes, God no.

Without a lifetime of cultivating moral, physical, and ethical self-sufficency, one is in quite a ditch when religion evaporates.

would you say, then, that i am a weak person, both morally and physically, or that i lack the ability to reason?

furthermore, religion existing as the grouping together to seek God, i find that it only gets stronger the more one leans on it.

Gale_Force15: Your post is a reason why I won't sign Hydrok's petition to revoke your posting privilages. :beer: :clap:

he does indeed bring up a good point.

[heel31ok]

Religion is the worst thing that could happen to any person. Religion is man made and is the arrogance of man trying to make a god in his on image.When we try to describe what we think god should be or do , or we disapprove of what we read He has done we are creating our own god. It is not a matter of what we think God should be like , but it is a matter of what God has revealed to us that He is like and we have the choice to reject or accept that revelation. It is a relationship with God that is of value to a person not religion.A relationship with someone is not weakness or a crutch ,but is the opportunity to gain knowledge and insight from one who is more knowledgable and wiser than ourselves .
Duo, prayer is not the last sanctuary of the doomed, but it is giving God the right to act on our behalf, to interject Himself into our lives or the lives of others. Prayer is also merely conversation with God to get to know someone it is good to talk to them.It is hard to call someone a friend when you never speak to them. Another aspect of prayer is the creative force of the spoken word. God showed this when He spoke and it came to be. Speaking blessings and curses is more than just words. It is a creative force for good or evil. Jesus is the Word , "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." Jesus said "all power is given unto me in heaven and earth..." I want to align myself with the most powerful , who happens to have my best interest at heart. Not a bad safety net. If I am wrong then so be it . I have made my choice and am willing to see it through to the end. the glorious promises of God far out weigh any other alternative out there.What other choices are better? Weakness, no He became weak to make us strong, He became poor to make us rich, He died that we may live!

[Gale_Force15]

Gale_Force15: Your post is a reason why I won't sign Hydrok's petition to revoke your posting privilages. :beer: :clap:

Whao... Did Duo just compliment me? I feel so good!

[Gale_Force15]

Religion is the worst thing that could happen to any person. Religion is man made and is the arrogance of man trying to make a god in his on image.When we try to describe what we think god should be or do , or we disapprove of what we read He has done we are creating our own god. It is not a matter of what we think God should be like , but it is a matter of what God has revealed to us that He is like and we have the choice to reject or accept that revelation. It is a relationship with God that is of value to a person not religion.A relationship with someone is not weakness or a crutch ,but is the opportunity to gain knowledge and insight from one who is more knowledgable and wiser than ourselves .
Duo, prayer is not the last sanctuary of the doomed, but it is giving God the right to act on our behalf, to interject Himself into our lives or the lives of others. Prayer is also merely conversation with God to get to know someone it is good to talk to them.It is hard to call someone a friend when you never speak to them. Another aspect of prayer is the creative force of the spoken word. God showed this when He spoke and it came to be. Speaking blessings and curses is more than just words. It is a creative force for good or evil. Jesus is the Word , "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." Jesus said "all power is given unto me in heaven and earth..." I want to align myself with the most powerful , who happens to have my best interest at heart. Not a bad safety net. If I am wrong then so be it . I have made my choice and am willing to see it through to the end. the glorious promises of God far out weigh any other alternative out there.What other choices are better? Weakness, no He became weak to make us strong, He became poor to make us rich, He died that we may live!

It saddens me to see people take something made t help them and declare it evil. Heel, please read the Bible and The Book of Mormon all the way through. If you still do not believe, then so be it, but please at least read them, if you are correct, it can do you no harm.

[Anvils Hammer]

it is my opinion, that yes, religion is a safty net.
we are BORN as atheists, and religion enters our lives later.
religion is like a drug, in that it helps people cope, BUT it is a drug with no negative side effects, and i cannot critisise relgion becuase i have never met a religious person who is stupid.
i am an atheist, and view my beliefs as a relgion because like christians, i cannot PROVE that there is no God, the difference is that my religion forces me to stand on my own two feet, which will always be stronger on crutches.
as as to who is more mobile- a man with crutches or a man who limps, the man who limps would not limp, he would tell himself- i will not limp, and stop, because the crutches arnt there for him, so he MUST end his reliance on them.

religion is totally wrong IMO, but my opinion is as relavant as the next persons, there are some very strong arguments in favour of a creator, for example,i still dont know how random evolution from bacteria could produc a human eye, i trust that science, the holy scripture of my athiest religion will somday give me the answer.

[Michele]

i cannot critisise relgion becuase i have never met a religious person who is stupid.

I really don't disagree with anything you posted... but I must say I most certainly have met religous people of a number of religions and spiritual paths that were not all that bright. But I wouldn't hold either the religion or the spiritual paths guilty for the lack of intelligence I have noted in some (of course not all) of the congregations of any of them, respectively.

[Slipped Mickey]

I feel that too many people these days rely on religion as a safety net. life is a scary process and we all have to face challenges. I have noticed in my so-far brief life that many people when faced with a challenge or problem tend to turn to religion. After all when in fear or in need or help, turn to the only person who has enough power to help you.
I think of myself as a very level headed, open minded person, and bleive that there is two sides to every story, in this case: I believe that religion is important to society and culture. without it there would be many problems, not only does it give people a sense of individuality but also lays down rules for people.
in contrast you could also point out that it causes divisions, just look at Ireland for example, where things have now calmed down.
i can understand why people turn to religion, but in the end, i can't help feeling that these people are weaker, and i do not mean any disrespect, but everyone has to deal with life, and what do you do when religion fails you.

i also struggle to understnad how they can be so sure there is a God, when science clearly prooves against it, i personally believe there is someone with a deal of power controling events that occour, but have serious doubts on their actual "power", after all, isn't it choice that allows us to be who we are.

in my mind i can clearly see that although religion is important to society there are some MAJOR flaws in it.What religion is God? There's your answer. If you are looking for God you've already found God. Religion is man's effort qualifying and quantifiying something greater than his ability to comprehend. God is not verse xxxx, line xxx, sutra xxx. God isn't words, God isn't ritual. God is a baby's laugh; the soulful look in a young girl's eyes; a mother's prideful stare; the cowboy that gets back on one more time; the wisdom of a gentle lady of many years; the warm cuddle of an old dog; a soldier who takes one last look before he leaves. That is religion and IMHO there is more truth in all that than in the Bible.

[Duo_Maxwell]

so who is more mobile? the lame man using crutches or the lame man trying vainly to hobble around without them?

Who says he's vainly trying to hobble around? The religious man may use religion as a crutch, but what happens when religion fails? The lame secular man has a lifetime to learn how to adapt without a crutch. Who is more mobile then, when it really matters?

interesting logic; so, how do you explain the strength if they are weak? surely you are not accepting the possibility that inner strength comes from God?

Why not? Many people find the strength to contiune because they believe God is there to help them. That is dependecy. They cannot find the strength without "God" helping them. Inner strength is there, but the means to use it are different. If the religious is by calling upon God, then what happens when that fails? The man who learns to call upon without any other factors is in the most favorable position.

honestly, this is like arguing that a single soldier is more effective than a squad of soldiers.

Sometimes he is.

lean on God; He never will.

Possibily. But no one can prove or disprove that.

religion yes, God no.

Never said God failed anyone. However, we know God through religion. If religion fails, well...what happens?

that i am a weak person, both morally and physically, or that i lack the ability to reason?

Only when religion fails you.

he does indeed bring up a good point.

I may not like his point, but I can't argue aganist it. Therefore I must uphold it.

Whao... Did Duo just compliment me? I feel so good!

See above. Arguments I don't like, but are solid deserve praise.

[GI Joe]

I really don't disagree with anything you posted... but I must say I most certainly have met religous people of a number of religions and spiritual paths that were not all that bright. But I wouldn't hold either the religion or the spiritual paths guilty for the lack of intelligence I have noted in some (of course not all) of the congregations of any of them, respectively.



I agree Michele, amazing isnt it.

[cpwill]

Who says he's vainly trying to hobble around? The religious man may use religion as a crutch, but what happens when religion fails? The lame secular man has a lifetime to learn how to adapt without a crutch. Who is more mobile then, when it really matters?

ah, however, the crutch of God does not fail us.

Why not? Many people find the strength to contiune because they believe God is there to help them. That is dependecy. They cannot find the strength without "God" helping them. Inner strength is there, but the means to use it are different.

ah, so you are claiming that these people really are strong, they just express their own inner strength differently?

If the religious is by calling upon God, then what happens when that fails?

:shrug:it doesn't.

The man who learns to call upon without any other factors is in the most favorable position.

lol, not hardly, for the man who has used help is further ahead.

Sometimes he is.

not according to the military. even snipers work in pairs.

Possibily. But no one can prove or disprove that.

since you are unwilling to accept the only possible evidence that could either prove or disprove it, yes.

Never said God failed anyone. However, we know God through religion. If religion fails, well...what happens?

wrong, we know God through a personal relationship with Him; religion is more about us joining together in His name. if religion fails, then we are left with God, which is more than we need.

Only when religion fails you.

as stated before, when religion fails, lean on God.

[Duo_Maxwell]

ah, however, the crutch of God does not fail us.

So why have so many people died needlessly? Why have so many people suffered needlessly? Of course if we didn't have a all loving God then everything makes sense.

ah, so you are claiming that these people really are strong, they just express their own inner strength differently?

Having the ability to be strong does not make one strong. We both may have the same IQ level, but the smarter one is the one who studies and utilitizes his mind. Strength is not in ability, but application. Sorry, you're not getting me with this one. ;)

it doesn't

See first response.

not according to the military. even snipers work in pairs.

Ah, but we award medals to men who have taken out many enemy soldiers by themselves. If one man can take out 5 machine gun nessts, is he not more useful then the 5 machine gun squads?

wrong, we know God through a personal relationship with Him; religion is more about us joining together in His name. if religion fails, then we are left with God, which is more than we need.

How would we know of God without religion? Every God is based around some sort of religion. Without religion, we have no knowledge of God.

[jamesrage]

If one man can take out 5 machine gun nessts, is he not more useful then the 5 machine gun squads?


No,he just got really lucky or either either the machine gunners were not alternating their burst patterns back and forth between the gunners so that the enemy can not get a fix on a single target,by the machine gunners alternating their burst patterns they can confuse the enemy on where their exact position is.I was a 249 S.A.W.(squad automatic weapon) machine gunner and have had training with the 240B machine gun while I was in the army.I can even take apart and put together a 249 S.A.W. blind folded.

[Duo_Maxwell]

try not to focus of the most trival part of the discussion next time. Besides, one fighter pilot can decimate an entire armor company.

[jamesrage]

I think it is good for people to use religion as a crutch.Most religious based charity groups are the majority that help the homeless and people who are not finiacially (not freeloading welfare mothers who are capalble to work)stable enough to support themselves or thier families.Religion gives most people a sence of morals who would otherwise not give a rats *** if they did not believe.I have my morals and actually give a **** about right and wrong because of God.If it was not for God I would be the same as when I was younger.

[cpwill]

So why have so many people died needlessly? Why have so many people suffered needlessly? Of course if we didn't have a all loving God then everything makes sense.

who says any of it is needless?

Having the ability to be strong does not make one strong. We both may have the same IQ level, but the smarter one is the one who studies and utilitizes his mind. Strength is not in ability, but application. Sorry, you're not getting me with this one. ;)

exactly, and in this scenario i am the one willing to use the book while you are the one insisting that my "dependency" on academic research is a crutch which will ultimately leave me more foolish when the academics fail. do you see, then, how silly this is?

See first response.

we've had the pain debate before, bad is necessary for us to recognize good.

Ah, but we award medals to men who have taken out many enemy soldiers by themselves.

that's correct; we do it because it is much more harder for a single man to do it than a group of soldiers working together:)

If one man can take out 5 machine gun nessts, is he not more useful then the 5 machine gun squads?

nope, the liklihood is that those 5 machine gun nests will kill many many many more than one man before they are taken out. and even then, you are dealing with extremely extraorodinary individuals who are in no way indicative of the mass of humanity, and military strategy should never be built on them.

How would we know of God without religion?

lol, how do you think we "got" religion? we built it after we met God.

Every God is based around some sort of religion.

it's backwards, religion is based around God.

Without religion, we have no knowledge of God.

actually, it's without God that we have no knowledge of God.

[cpwill]

try not to focus of the most trival part of the discussion next time. Besides, one fighter pilot can decimate an entire armor company.

not by himself; he requires quite a team of support.

[jamesrage]

not by himself; he requires quite a team of support.

I should have used that response, and that was common knowledge too.

[cpwill]

:shrug:

[heel31ok]

It saddens me to see people take something made t help them and declare it evil. Heel, please read the Bible and The Book of Mormon all the way through. If you still do not believe, then so be it, but please at least read them, if you are correct, it can do you no harm.


I am sorry I did not make myself clear. I was commenting on religion as a man made ceremonial set of rules and regulation that do nothing to further ones spirituality nor impresses God. The religious leaders of Jesus' day did just that. They burdened the people with alot of ''things" they had to "do" to be holy and to worship God. I guess I was more or less commenting on what religion is today instead of what true religion is.
James 1:26,27. "If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.Religion that God accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneslf from being polluted by the world."

[Duo_Maxwell]

who says any of it is needless?

Oh boy. That's pretty harsh stance you got there. So the millions murdered in genocidal acts weren't needless deaths?

The analogy doesn't fit. Academics is based upon individual research and individual thought & choice. You depend upon yourself in academic research. Academics fail because you choose to fail. Not so with religion.

bad is necessary for us to recognize good.

So there "god" is not all loving.

lol, how do you think we "got" religion? we built it after we met God.

And how do you know what religion, a creation of man, created God?

it's backwards, religion is based around God.

....The only way people learn about God is through religion. Science is based around knowledge. Not knowledge based around science.

actually, it's without God that we have no knowledge of God.

I ask you this: How would you know of God without religion?

[Ronnieraygun]

Prayer is the last sancuary of the doomed....Really?

In 1995, my wife and I were so broke, we were nearly forced to live out of our car. I couldn't find a job, and my wife was about to give birth to our son. We both prayed for better times. They came when our son was born.

In 1997, my wife gave birth to our still born son. He would have been our second boy. That was a very hard time for us. It nearly broke us up. But we prayed for healing and forgiveness of each other. It came. We still celebrate his birthday, and we share our sadness. But life goes on.

Last November, my wife had surgery that nearly killed her. I prayed for God not to take her. He didn't. She continues to get stronger day by day.


My wife and I have lived through, and survived things most married couples will never see in their lives. If you would call me or my beliefs 'weak', you don't know me very well.


Joshua 24:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD ."

[cpwill]

Oh boy. That's pretty harsh stance you got there. So the millions murdered in genocidal acts weren't needless deaths?

we all die; how is dying via the sword more or less needless than dying of desease?

The analogy doesn't fit. Academics is based upon individual research and individual thought & choice. You depend upon yourself in academic research. Academics fail because you choose to fail. Not so with religion.

if that is the case, then the analogy does fit; i am choosing to make use of the help that is offered, and you are not. i am choosing to read the book, you are claiming you can do it all yourself better than i can without the help.

So there "god" is not all loving.

quite the opposite, in fact, he loves us to the point where he allows us to have choice, and allows us to experience good.

And how do you know what religion, a creation of man, created God?

how do i know that a religion created God? no, i am arguing the opposite, that man created religion because he Met God.

....The only way people learn about God is through religion.

one very good way to learn about God is through religion.

I ask you this: How would you know of God without religion?

well, i knew of him before i was a member of any religion; so i suppose simply by Meeting Him, experiencing Him, etc.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Ronnieraygun: Who do those who are facing oblivion turn to last? God.

we all die; how is dying via the sword more or less needless than dying of desease?

I find it hard to believe a all loving God would believe that death by natural causes it equal to death by slow torture. I also have a hard time believing this so called god of yours would give someone's life the sole purpose of being hacked to death at a early age. I do not believe in a all loving God for many reasons.

i am choosing to make use of the help that is offered, and you are not. i am choosing to read the book, you are claiming you can do it all yourself better than i can without the help.

but what do you do when the help is not offered? I am not saying I can do it better, but I can do it by myself without intervention, imaginary or real. Dependency is something I consider a bad trait to have. You may not. I do not need a "God" to be able to do what is necessary. Being forced to needing him/her/it is dependency, and dependency is a weakness.

in fact, he loves us to the point where he allows us to have choice, and allows us to experience good.

And he allows us to butcher each other in horrible fashions and does nothing. I do not believe in a all loving God. Would you allow your creations to wage a war of atroicity after atrocity on themselves? That, my dear associate, is not love, but neglect.

i am arguing the opposite, that man created religion because he Met God.

Because....I believe the opposite. Religion is comfort, and in the dire times of the past, man needed comfort.

one very good way to learn about God is through religion

And there are others? I fail to see how you can know anything about God without religion. Of course, you can simply just make stuff up, but then you're creating your own God.

so i suppose simply by Meeting Him, experiencing Him, etc.

:laughter: That's a good one. I can just see you now as a stand up comedian.

[cpwill]

I find it hard to believe a all loving God would believe that death by natural causes it equal to death by slow torture.

i didn't say they were equal at all; i said how can you say one is necessarily more needless or the other.

I also have a hard time believing this so called god of yours would give someone's life the sole purpose of being hacked to death at a early age.

you believe a person's life is defined by their death?

I do not believe in a all loving God for many reasons.

let me guess; you think a loving God would ensure no pain?

but what do you do when the help is not offered?

honestly, i can say that this it has never happened that i have asked God for aid in achieving His will in my life and He has not given it to me.

I am not saying I can do it better, but I can do it by myself without intervention, imaginary or real.

so why would you choose to accept lesser results simply in order to satisfy pride?

Dependency is something I consider a bad trait to have.

humans require dependency, we are group-oriented creatures; you are dependent on others whether you like it or not.

You may not.

i consider that one must try to be self-dependent when possible, and accept dependency when necessary.

I do not need a "God" to be able to do what is necessary.

depends on what you consider necessary, i suppose.

Being forced to needing him/her/it is dependency, and dependency is a weakness.

wrong, a relationship with God is strength. this is sort of like claiming that dependency on food is weakness. no its' not, it simply is; and were you to try to make yourself better by refusing to accept your dependency on food (or air, or water) you would only harm yourself.

And he allows us to butcher each other in horrible fashions and does nothing.

A) He allows us to butcher each other in horrible fashions this is correct; He gave us free will.
B) He does not do nothing.

I do not believe in a all loving God. Would you allow your creations to wage a war of atroicity after atrocity on themselves?

when the option was causing them to cease to be individuals, to cease to be creations, and instead force them merely to become extensions of my will?

That, my dear associate, is not love, but neglect.

if one does not see that God has been pretty busy in trying to get humans to choose the correct path...

Because....I believe the opposite. Religion is comfort, and in the dire times of the past, man needed comfort.

? heck, so is sex. man created sex because he needed comfort? and religion can be hardly comforting at times.

And there are others? I fail to see how you can know anything about God without religion.

try talking to Him direct;)

Of course, you can simply just make stuff up, but then you're creating your own God.

indeed i would be.

:laughter: That's a good one. I can just see you now as a stand up comedian.

you are accusing me of lying?

[Duo_Maxwell]

i said how can you say one is necessarily more needless or the other.

How can you say they aren't?

you believe a person's life is defined by their death?

Sometimes. But if that's all the person knew, well, what else is there to say? When infants are slaughtered in cold blood, how can you say there is a all loving God?

you think a loving God would ensure no pain?

No, but I don't think a loving God would let us butcher each other towards extinction.

i can say that this it has never happened

It may have never happened to you, but it did happen to millions of Jews, as well as Rwandians, Albanians, and other peoples throughtout history. There is a reason "The Night" was written.

so why would you choose to accept lesser results simply in order to satisfy pride?

Who says they are any lesser?

you are dependent on others whether you like it or not.

It is still a weakness. Having more of it doesn't make you any stronger. Minimizing weakness is what most rational people attempt to do.

and accept dependency when necessary.

There we go. Accepting religion as a dependency isn't seen as necessary by me.

depends on what you consider necessary, i suppose.

Oh survive for one.

a relationship with God is strength.

And it is also a weakness.

This is sort of like claiming that dependency on food is weakness. no its' not,

Dependency on Food is a weakness. Without it, you are vulnerable, and it can be used to manipulate and force your hand, another weakness. Aren't you tired of me countering every anaology? Of course, this is one dependecy you can't escape, but even it can be minimized.

and were you to try to make yourself better by refusing to accept your dependency on food (or air, or water) you would only harm yourself.


But at the same time you could learn to mimize you need of these dependencies, lowering your polential vulernabilities. You accept them and reduce them.

A) He allows us to butcher each other in horrible fashions this is correct; He gave us free will.
B) He does not do nothing.

Thus he gave us a curse at the same time as a gift. You admit he allowes us to do these acts. What kind of loving parent would let their children attack each other with butcher knives? As for B, well, neither of us can prove anything about it.

when the option was causing them to cease to be individuals, to cease to be creations, and instead force them merely to become extensions of my will?

Clarify please.

if one does not see that God has been pretty busy in trying to get humans to choose the correct path

Well, then he's failing pretty hard, unless the correct path is butchery, saveragey and death, but that's not loving God. How can a perfect God fail to properly guide it subjects? Not to mention how can a perfect God create imperfect beings.

and religion can be hardly comforting at times.

True, but neither can sex. However, the ability to seek comfort that a higher being is there for you at all times is quite comforting.

try talking to Him direct

Would you mind passing me the coke?

you are accusing me of lying?

No, but you argument is quite humoruous in terms of trying to convince anyone of anything.

[cpwill]

How can you say they aren't?

i'm saying that i don't see any life as needless; death being merely a part of life.

Sometimes. But if that's all the person knew, well, what else is there to say? When infants are slaughtered in cold blood, how can you say there is a all loving God?

because it makes sense to me that a loving God would want to give us Free Will.

No, but I don't think a loving God would let us butcher each other towards extinction.

you think we are reaching extinction? :raises eyebrow:

It may have never happened to you, but it did happen to millions of Jews, as well as Rwandians, Albanians, and other peoples throughtout history. There is a reason "The Night" was written.

:confused: would you care to point out to me where God said that he would garuntee that we would not die here on earth?

Who says they are any lesser?

using the analogy; i will learn more if i apply both my skill and the learning of those before me than just you if you apply only your skill.

It is still a weakness. Having more of it doesn't make you any stronger.

wrong, just as eating makes us stronger (and we are dependent on food), so does a relationship with God.

Minimizing weakness is what most rational people attempt to do.

correct, which is why i wonder at why you are deliberately denying yourself strength.

There we go. Accepting religion as a dependency isn't seen as necessary by me.

then you will achieve less-than-optimal results.

Oh survive for one.

see, i'm not positive i would consider that necessary; seeing as how it's impossible anyway.

And it is also a weakness.

pick the person in your life whom you admire most, who has had the best effect on you. has your relationship with this person made you better, or worse?

Dependency on Food is a weakness. Without it, you are vulnerable, and it can be used to manipulate and force your hand, another weakness.

however, a necessity for life it remains, and pretending that it's not, and that not eating makes you stronger is not only silly it is, ultimately, suicidally stupid.

Aren't you tired of me countering every anaology?

since countering you is fairly easy, no:)

Of course, this is one dependecy you can't escape, but even it can be minimized.

only by living on substistance rations, in which case you have not only failed to minimize the dependency (or affect it at all, actually), but you are ultimately left extremely weak.

But at the same time you could learn to mimize you need of these dependencies, lowering your polential vulernabilities. You accept them and reduce them.

and why would i wish to do this to the point where it becomes self-destructive?

Thus he gave us a curse at the same time as a gift.

suppose it depends on how you use it:)

You admit he allowes us to do these acts.

freely.

What kind of loving parent would let their children attack each other with butcher knives?

one who would have to kill all of his children in order to get them to stop.

As for B, well, neither of us can prove anything about it.

i can, but you're not willing to accept the evidence of testimony.

Clarify please.

in order for God to ensure that we made all the right decisions, that we always chose not to murder, not to torture, not to insult, etc., he would have to revoke our free will, to take from us that which makes us us, our individuality. we would cease to be anything other than extensions of God's Will.

Well, then he's failing pretty hard, unless the correct path is butchery, saveragey and death,

actually, it's us that are failing.

but that's not loving God.

indeed it is not.

How can a perfect God fail to properly guide it subjects?

He hasn't. we have failed to take His guidance.

Not to mention how can a perfect God create imperfect beings.

by making them their own.

True, but neither can sex. However, the ability to seek comfort that a higher being is there for you at all times is quite comforting.

for those who have faith, yes, it is reassuring. however, faith can also be quite disturbing, especially when one tries to live a life of faith.

Would you mind passing me the coke?

:) no drugs required.

No, but you argument is quite humoruous in terms of trying to convince anyone of anything.

who says i'm trying to convince you?

[Anvils Hammer]

cpwill, a specific question i would like answered

you say that we are free to choose to kill each other.
and that because God loves us, he gives us free will to choose to kill each other.

is it possible for me to fly?
why not?, its because the laws of physics do not allow me to fly.
surly, if god really meant us to have free will, it would be possible for me to be free to fly around.
but its not, as God created the world and human beings, he has placed a limitation on our free will by not allowing us to fly.
why cant he make it physically impossible for us to kill each other? or make it impossible for us to die of non natural cause?
surly this limitation on our free will would be EXACTLY the same as the limitation he has placed to stop us flying.
this shows that god can and has limited our free will, why cant he limit it further to prevent unnesecary suffering?

[cpwill]

is it possible for me to fly?

as a matter of fact, yes.:)

[cpwill]

and how would you suggest God remove our physical ability to kill each other? remove our limbs, our ability to manipulate tools, our teeth?

he would have to kill us in order to stop us from killing each other.

[MikeD4o7]

and how would you suggest God remove our physical ability to kill each other? remove our limbs, our ability to manipulate tools, our teeth?

he would have to kill us in order to stop us from killing each other.


He could take away our ability to be injured... allowing each of us to live out a set amount of lifespan... still having free will, still being able to emotionally interact with one another. This is just an idea of course.

My question to you is, what do you suppose could possibly happen in heaven? It's generally accepted that heaven is a better place than this one right? Why? Do we lose our free will when we go to heaven? Do we lose the ability to be harmed? Do we lose all of those things that are supposed to make us so lucky here on earth? what gives?

[jamesrage]

is it possible for me to fly?
why not?, its because the laws of physics do not allow me to fly.
surly, if god really meant us to have free will, it would be possible for me to be free to fly around.


I look at it as God has created mankind with that knowledge and resourcefulness to create things that allow us to fly and do many other things.

[Duo_Maxwell]

i'm saying that i don't see any life as needless; death being merely a part of life.

So, tell me, what's the purpose of a infant who is alive for 2 hours and then butchered by rebels?

because it makes sense to me that a loving God would want to give us Free Will

So free will is more important then life?

you think we are reaching extinction? :raises eyebrow:

We have the means. A thousand times over. All it would take is two or three missile launches targeting 1 important city. We are on the bring with the weapons we built to protect ourselves.

would you care to point out to me where God said that he would garuntee that we would not die here on earth?

would you care to point out to me where God said he would abandon us at our time of greatest need?

i will learn more if i apply both my skill and the learning of those before me than just you if you apply only your skill.

How do you know that your God isn't simply a means to use the abilities you already have? Many people have ways of activiting their abilities. I don't see why relying of God isn't any different aside from using religion as a catylst. But in that catylst is the dependency. You assume there are others you can learn from. I am simply saying that it is simply a way of using what you already have.

just as eating makes us stronger (and we are dependent on food), so does a relationship with God,

Depenency on eating can make you weaker, and make you easily mainpulated. Every dependency is a weakness that is screaming to be exploited. You realize you sound like a preacher that isn't using any sort of logic right?

which is why i wonder at why you are deliberately denying yourself strength

Am I really? Religion is simply another form of weakness. One that has a bilboard crying out to be exploited. I wonder why you are allowing that you contiune. I don't need a "God" to realize what I am capable of.

then you will achieve less-than-optimal results.

Because....

seeing as how it's impossible anyway.

Not necessarily sure about that. Human cells are capable of repairing, renewing, and rebuilding themselves for eternity given the proper enviroment and removal of certain conditions. Hardly impossible to say the least.

has your relationship with this person made you better, or worse?

Better, but it is still a weakness. Should that person commit a horrible act, it will most likely cause someone to question what they have been taught and shake the foundation of what has been built on that learning. Try again.

necessity for life it remains, and pretending that it's not, and that not eating makes you stronger is not only silly it is, ultimately, suicidally stupid.

No one is pretending (hahah). Reducing your need for food minimizes your weakness and vulnerabilities. No one is saying not to eat, but reduce your total intake. You are fabricating arguments.

since countering you is fairly easy, no

Well, if it's so easy, why haven't you done it? ;)

only by living on substistance rations, in which case you have not only failed to minimize the dependency (or affect it at all, actually), but you are ultimately left extremely weak.

Not necessarily true. Many monks in the highlands of Asia have learned to go days on end during strenous work with miminal caloric intake. None of them are even remotely weak. Try again. They have reduced their vulnerability. With a need for little intake, and little sleep, they have reduced two of the major vulnerabilities all humans face to next to nothing.

and why would i wish to do this to the point where it becomes self-destructive

I didn't say it was self destruction. Contrary, it makes you stronger should it be done correctly.

one who would have to kill all of his children in order to get them to stop.

Why kill? A parent doesn't kill him child to prevent bad behavior, they discipinle and guides by example. haven't seen that yet. There's a reason atheists exist, because God hasn't lead by example.

I can, but you're not willing to accept the evidence of testimony.

I don't accept what a court would laugh hysterically at. Essentially your argument is "because I met God and I say so." There's no logic, nor any form of substantial evidence.

he would have to revoke our free will, to take from us that which makes us us, our individuality. we would cease to be anything other than extensions of God's Will.

Not sure about that. One stops behavior by making an example of one. Yet homicide, rape, murder, stealing, etc, etc, etc are all up in the world. If a truely loving God existed, he would lead by example and reward those who practiced what he preached. Yet good people met horrible ends.

actually, it's us that are failing.

Who is to blame: The teacher who doesn't teach properly, or the children who don't want to learn?

by making them their own.

...what?

[Anvils Hammer]

and how would you suggest God remove our physical ability to kill each other? remove our limbs, our ability to manipulate tools, our teeth?

he would have to kill us in order to stop us from killing each other.


god gave us an instict that says "do not eat your own feaces" and very few people do, is this taking away our free will?

god gave those of us who are hetrosexual an instict that says "do not be sexual attracted ot the same sex", and we are not. is this taking away our free will?, same goese for homosexual people.

god gave us an instict that says "do not throw yourself over the cliff" and hardly anyone does, is this taking away our free will?

there are many things that we do not do because our insticts tell us in the strongest possible terms "DO NOT DO THIS"
these insticts do not remove our free will.

this is how i conclude that God must be evil, or if he is good, he isnt omnipotent.
this is becuase he could have given us a very strong abbhorance to killing each other that would have worked to end all war, and this would not take free will away, why hasnt he? as he is omnipotent it must be because he wants us to kill each other.

[cpwill]

i think it is also natural for humans not to commit murder, what of it?

[Duo_Maxwell]

i think it is also natural for humans not to commit murder, what of it?

I think it is natural for humans to commit murder. Removing compeititon for mates, food and territory increases one's chances of propagating their genes, which ultimtely in the purpose of life in a biological standpoint. So, thus it is natural for humans to remove competition, and murder is simply a means to do it.

[Anvils Hammer]

im afriad you havent answered my question at all cpwill.
yes you are right, murder is not somthing we do normally.
but as Duo said, in competition over land, resources etc, we are all to eager to kill.
it is somtimes instictive.
why did god give us this instinct.
i think the reason you havent not answered adequatly is because you cant,
tell me, WHY did god give us the desire to kill each other ever? at all?
its obviouse he did, becuase millions upon millions of us have been killed thorugh time, why did he? because as all ready demonstrated, he could easily have kept free will without making us ever desire to kill each other

[cpwill]

So, tell me, what's the purpose of a infant who is alive for 2 hours and then butchered by rebels?

:shrug: i' don't know, i'm not God. you got any ideas?

So free will is more important then life?

not only that, but to a large extent free will is life.

We have the means. A thousand times over. All it would take is two or three missile launches targeting 1 important city. We are on the bring with the weapons we built to protect ourselves.

and have we?

would you care to point out to me where God said he would abandon us at our time of greatest need?

who says He does?

How do you know that your God isn't simply a means to use the abilities you already have? Many people have ways of activiting their abilities.

but think about that, using that logic, wouldn't those people then be stronger on their own, which would rather disprove the argument that those who "depend" on God are weaker?

I don't see why relying of God isn't any different aside from using religion as a catylst. But in that catylst is the dependency. You assume there are others you can learn from. I am simply saying that it is simply a way of using what you already have.

and i disagree; i certainly know that i have recieved that which i did not have before.

Depenency on eating can make you weaker, and make you easily mainpulated. Every dependency is a weakness that is screaming to be exploited. You realize you sound like a preacher that isn't using any sort of logic right?

the fact remains, however, that each and every member of the human race depends on food, and attempting to ignore that dependency makes you weaker, not stronger.

and no, i didn't realize i sound like a preacher, and quite frankly i think it's you who are using fairly paranoid logic.

Am I really? Religion is simply another form of weakness.

no it's not, it's another source of strength.

One that has a bilboard crying out to be exploited. I wonder why you are allowing that you contiune. I don't need a "God" to realize what I am capable of.

yes, but i need God in order to do things i am not capable of.

Because....

because you are not utilizing all available resources.

Not necessarily sure about that. Human cells are capable of repairing, renewing, and rebuilding themselves for eternity given the proper enviroment and removal of certain conditions. Hardly impossible to say the least.

incorrect, human cells also contain within their DNA shut-down genes.

Better, but it is still a weakness.

so you are a weaker person now because of this individual?

Should that person commit a horrible act, it will most likely cause someone to question what they have been taught and shake the foundation of what has been built on that learning. Try again.

when that individual is God, however, this fear does not come into play.

No one is pretending (hahah). Reducing your need for food minimizes your weakness and vulnerabilities. No one is saying not to eat, but reduce your total intake. You are fabricating arguments.

reducing your total intake can, in fact, make you weaker; particularly if you are leading the lifestyle most likely to make you strong. furthermore, it will also make you more vulnerable; the man with a layer of fat built up can survive without food for longer than the man who has tried to eat as little as necessary.

Well, if it's so easy, why haven't you done it? ;)

:pats duo on the head: you go right on believing that.....;)

Not necessarily true. Many monks in the highlands of Asia have learned to go days on end during strenous work with miminal caloric intake. None of them are even remotely weak. Try again. They have reduced their vulnerability.

they've managed to focus their energy to allow themselves to work despite discomfort and weakness; big deal, you don't have to look at the monks in asia to find this; you can simply take a look at our own military.

With a need for little intake, and little sleep, they have reduced two of the major vulnerabilities all humans face to next to nothing.

have they? i wonder what would happen if someone were to take away a percentage of that which they get, and to take away a similar percentage of that which i get; which one of us could sustain the loss easier.

I didn't say it was self destruction. Contrary, it makes you stronger should it be done correctly.

refusing yourself that which you require to grow does become self-destruction.

Why kill? A parent doesn't kill him child to prevent bad behavior, they discipinle and guides by example.

and God does, and has done, both.

haven't seen that yet. There's a reason atheists exist, because God hasn't lead by example.

how about if he came down to earth personally to live a human life to show us how to do it, would that satisfy you?:rolleyes:

[cpwill]

I don't accept what a court would laugh hysterically at. Essentially your argument is "because I met God and I say so." There's no logic, nor any form of substantial evidence.

you think courts don't accept witness testimony?

Not sure about that. One stops behavior by making an example of one. Yet homicide, rape, murder, stealing, etc, etc, etc are all up in the world. If a truely loving God existed, he would lead by example and reward those who practiced what he preached. Yet good people met horrible ends.

the state of texas makes examples of murderers and rapists more often than any other state in the union, do you think that there are no more murders or rapes in texas?

humanity has proven remarkably bad at using logic and remarkably good at ignoring possible consequences of their actions.

Who is to blame: The teacher who doesn't teach properly, or the children who don't want to learn?

and the teacher who teaches properly while the student still doesn't want to learn?

...what?

we are most purely what God has made us to be; our truest natures can be found in living in Him.

[heel31ok]

cpwill, a specific question i would like answered

you say that we are free to choose to kill each other.
and that because God loves us, he gives us free will to choose to kill each other.
is it possible for me to fly?
why not?, its because the laws of physics do not allow me to fly.
surly, if god really meant us to have free will, it would be possible for me to be free to fly around.
but its not, as God created the world and human beings, he has placed a limitation on our free will by not allowing us to fly.
why cant he make it physically impossible for us to kill each other? or make it impossible for us to die of non natural cause?
surly this limitation on our free will would be EXACTLY the same as the limitation he has placed to stop us flying.
this shows that god can and has limited our free will, why cant he limit it further to prevent unnesecary suffering?
Sin causes death , it is the root cause of all suffering ! God made a way for man to live without sin, all man had to do was choose not to sin. When man excercised his free will to sin, death and destruction were put into motion . God does not cause suffering, sin does .If you want to refer to those destroyed inthe OT , their own wickedness destroyed them.When sin is done away with forever it will be impossible to die of non natural causes.
"then I saw a new heaven and a new earth , for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City , the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, Now the dwelling of God is with men ,and He will live with them. They will be His people and God Himself will be with them and be their God.He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.He who was seated on the throne said, I am making evrything new.Write this down for these words are trustworthy and true.He said to me, it is done I am the Alpha and the Omega , the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.He who overcomes will inherit all this,and I will be His God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, thesexually immoral , those who practice magic arts,the idolaters and all liars- their place will be in the fiery lakeof burning sulfur. This is the second death."

[Duo_Maxwell]

i' don't know, i'm not God. you got any ideas?

Yes, there's no all loving God. I took the "Make your own God,"and I left out many of the contridicting aspects of the Christian God, and lookie, lookie, mine came out very plausbile and iwithout paradoxes that normally plague logical deductions of your God.

not only that, but to a large extent free will is life.

How about creatures that are simply drones for another? So ants have no life? :rolleyes:

and have we?

We've come mere millimeters to oblivion in the past on several occasions. From the Cuban Missile Crisis, to mysterious missile activiations, we've knocked on the door.

who says He does?

I feel like i'm arguing with a true skeptic.

which would rather disprove the argument that those who "depend" on God are weaker?

Um, no. The difference in relying on yourself to activiate polential abilities and God is that those who rely on God believe that those abilities are dependent upon God, and only through God can they be used. The person who doesn't depend on this can use them freely without any "call" to God. Faith and religion can be broken. Something that in bred into someone from Day one and used without any external catalysts is far stronger.

i certainly know that i have recieved that which i did not have before.

Okay. If you say so. :rolleyes:

attempting to ignore that dependency makes you weaker, not stronger.

You're fabricating arguments again.

it's another source of strength.

Okay. If you say so. :rolleyes:

but i need God in order to do things i am not capable of

Like lifting a car? You can do that without religion. It's actually easy.

human cells also contain within their DNA shut-down genes.

Um, stop codons don't shut down cells. True, a cell can comit suicide when there is irreparable damage, but you have trillions of cells able to divide and divide to take their places. You could ponentially live forever, assuming a external factor like a bullet doesn't come into the question. Bring on the biology buddy, it's my turf.

so you are a weaker person now because of this individual?

Yes. Because I will no longer see them. Try again.

they've managed to focus their energy to allow themselves to work despite discomfort and weakness; big deal, you don't have to look at the monks in asia to find this; you can simply take a look at our own military.

Our military cannot do this for months or years on end. The monks can.
You refuse to acknowledge that people can learn to live on abnormally low caloric intake. You refuse to acknowledge that minimize your vulnerabilities is a good thing.

which one of us could sustain the loss easier.

Probably them. After living on so little, what's the big deal when you lose a bit more, it's not like that's a few thing? After all, you haven't been living in extremely high altitudes with little food, and little sleep for decades.

how about if he came down to earth personally to live a human life to show us how to do it, would that satisfy you?

Yes it would. Unlike Bush's supporters, my beliefs rest on logic, accountaibility and above all, solid proof.

you think courts don't accept witness testimony?

Try go into a court and win a case saying "Well, my expierence with God says i'm right." You'll be laughed at so hard, the judge will throw you out faster then you can shake a stick at. Besides, witness testimonies are unreliable at best. They can change at will, and have been proven to have sent innocent people to the grave. They are accepted, but not the kind you are giving.

the state of texas makes examples of murderers and rapists more often than any other state in the union, do you think that there are no more murders or rapes in texas?

Texas is quite a questionable state. With numerous unethical rulings sending blacks to the grave while whites to jail for the same crime, texas is a bad example, if anything, it's giving thumbs up to white criminals. Try read Furman vs. Georgia before citing Texas again in any context remotely similar. Odds are you're going to run into someone who will pound you for that ignorant comment because they can. I'm not that person.

and the teacher who teaches properly while the student still doesn't want to learn?

How about the reverse?

As for the last comment: Imperfect creates imperfection. Perfection creates perfection.

[cpwill]

Yes, there's no all loving God.

that's not a very good answer to the question, are you saying, then, that the life was needless?

I took the "Make your own God,"and I left out many of the contridicting aspects of the Christian God, and lookie, lookie, mine came out very plausbile and iwithout paradoxes that normally plague logical deductions of your God.

lol,
A) where did you do this.
B) what contradicting aspects

How about creatures that are simply drones for another? So ants have no life? :rolleyes:

human life, that which exists as it's own independant force.

We've come mere millimeters to oblivion in the past on several occasions. From the Cuban Missile Crisis, to mysterious missile activiations, we've knocked on the door.

and yet, somehow, we're still here. you might almost say it's a miracle.:)

I feel like i'm arguing with a true skeptic.

as do i.:)

Um, no. The difference in relying on yourself to activiate polential abilities and God is that those who rely on God believe that those abilities are dependent upon God, and only through God can they be used.

however, since, according to you, God is not interactive in their lives, nothing will ever change (God cannot "abandon" them if He was never there), so they will continue to always have the same operating conditions.

Okay. If you say so. :rolleyes:

and i do.

You're fabricating arguments again.

i'm using your own argument against you.

Okay. If you say so. :rolleyes:

and i do.:)

Like lifting a car? You can do that without religion. It's actually easy.

not hardly, it requires a number of factors, among which includes an amazing influx of adrenaline, and even then instances are rare.

but no, what i am discussing is not limited by any means merely to physical abilities.

Um, stop codons don't shut down cells. True, a cell can comit suicide when there is irreparable damage, but you have trillions of cells able to divide and divide to take their places. You could ponentially live forever, assuming a external factor like a bullet doesn't come into the question. Bring on the biology buddy, it's my turf.

and i'm working out of an article i read in scientific america :rolleyes:

however, the point remains; the human body is not designed to live forever, nor will it sustain such life. from what i understand, science has determined our greatest possible life span to be in the region of almost 200 years.

Yes. Because I will no longer see them. Try again.

really, so having lost their physical presence, you have also lost all memory of what they did and said?

Our military cannot do this for months or years on end. The monks can.

on the contrary, within the military units exist that can do this for extremely long stretches of time, i'd put the rangers or the seals up against the monks for amount of work v. intake any day of the week.

You refuse to acknowledge that people can learn to live on abnormally low caloric intake.

no i don't, i merely point out that that in no way decreases their dependency on food.

You refuse to acknowledge that minimize your vulnerabilities is a good thing.

when it produces a less-desirable output, you betcha it isn't.

Probably them. After living on so little, what's the big deal when you lose a bit more, it's not like that's a few thing?

wrong, they are much closer to the line at which the human body is no longer able to function, their opponent has a store in place to give him a longer time before he reaches such a po int.

After all, you haven't been living in extremely high altitudes with little food, and little sleep for decades.

how about some figures here.

Yes it would. Unlike Bush's supporters, my beliefs rest on logic, accountaibility and above all, solid proof.

well then i suppose we have a little suprise for you:)

Try go into a court and win a case saying "Well, my expierence with God says i'm right." You'll be laughed at so hard, the judge will throw you out faster then you can shake a stick at. Besides, witness testimonies are unreliable at best. They can change at will, and have been proven to have sent innocent people to the grave. They are accepted, but not the kind you are giving.

if you are willing to judge this case on the same basis as a secular one, then the above bit is nonsense; it is only when you enter into it with a prejudiced viewpoint and the final decision already made that you will adopt such an attitude.

Texas is quite a questionable state. With numerous unethical rulings sending blacks to the grave while whites to jail for the same crime, texas is a bad example, if anything, it's giving thumbs up to white criminals. Try read Furman vs. Georgia before citing Texas again in any context remotely similar. Odds are you're going to run into someone who will pound you for that ignorant comment because they can. I'm not that person.

the fact remains that making examples has not proven to be a cure-all means of heading off violence before it starts. check out the old formal debate on the death penalty if nothing else. or, if you want to keep it within the context of the debate; check out the duderonomistic historian thread within the old testament texts.

How about the reverse?

considering God's perfect nature and human's inherent fallibility, it seems unlikely.

As for the last comment: Imperfect creates imperfection. Perfection creates perfection.

unless of course there is only one source of perfection, and the creation is cut off from it, separate from it.

[Anvils Hammer]

Sin causes death , it is the root cause of all suffering ! God made a way for man to live without sin, all man had to do was choose not to sin. When man excercised his free will to sin, death and destruction were put into motion . God does not cause suffering, sin does .If you want to refer to those destroyed inthe OT , their own wickedness destroyed them.When sin is done away with forever it will be impossible to die of non natural causes. "

did i excerise MY free will to sin? obviously i have, but i was born into sin and never knew any different.

what you are effectivly saying is that i am punished with suffering because of somthing my predecessor did.
this is utterly unfair and destroys and concpet i may have had of a God that is not simply evil and malicious.
the only conclusion i can draw from my analysis of what god says and does is that he absolutly hates me.
luckily he doesnt exist, so its ok *phew*

if God does exist hes evil,
lets see now.
he created humans
he gave us free will
he created us with an inbiult inability to remain sin free.
he forces us to live in pain and suffering, and sais its becuase we sin, but he created us, so its his decison weather we are inclined to sin or not.

he effectivly created us KNOWING (omnicience) that we would sin and suffer as a result.
the guy obviously LIKES watching us suffer.
if a human created a system in which cats were given free will, but had a tendancie to curl up on the big soft rug and were electrocuted everytime they did so, the person would be banned from looking after animals and considered not right in the head.

and you still havent answer my question cpwill, although you may not have seen it, please read back till you find it. :)

[Euripedes]

did i excerise MY free will to sin? obviously i have, but i was born into sin and never knew any different.

what you are effectivly saying is that i am punished with suffering because of somthing my predecessor did.
this is utterly unfair and destroys and concpet i may have had of a God that is not simply evil and malicious.
the only conclusion i can draw from my analysis of what god says and does is that he absolutly hates me.
luckily he doesnt exist, so its ok *phew*

if God does exist hes evil,
lets see now.
he created humans
he gave us free will

he created us with an inbiult inability to remain sin free.
he forces us to live in pain and suffering, and sais its becuase we sin, but he created us, so its his decison weather we are inclined to sin or not.

he effectivly created us KNOWING (omnicience) that we would sin and suffer as a result.
the guy obviously LIKES watching us suffer.
if a human created a system in which cats were given free will, but had a tendancie to curl up on the big soft rug and were electrocuted everytime they did so, the person would be banned from looking after animals and considered not right in the head.

and you still havent answer my question cpwill, although you may not have seen it, please read back till you find it. :)


Heres the problem...God could have made us into subserviant shells, robots, automatons...instead he gave wonderful abilities, abilities like love, kindness, compassion. He gave us our senses...the millions of nerves in our body allows to have pleasure, see wonders, taste all the different kinds of food etc...

He gave us free will but he did it because he wanted other creatures somewhat like himself, to be able to chose our own path...now naturally that path should have been one with his guidance...being that he is infinitely wise, we could have no better teacher now could we?

Heres the crutch, it was mans actions that plunged him into ruin and sin...it was our listening to satan...Now that person may sound mythical to you but since its possible for a good father to give birth to a son that is atypical and evil, its possible for god who is good to have an angel that was bad, Being that the only perfect beings ever mentioned in the bible where God and his son, we begin to understand that like us his angels also have free will.

As such they can choose wether or not to serve god...if we sin or go astray from gods love we can always come back to it...but if we refuse and reman obstinate God will caste us off like a gardener throwing away a plant that refuses to grow, or removing a weed that simply is parasitic. Its just diffrerent because we have free will...

The logic of god is far above that of man, his will is very discernable and attainable in the bible...he wishes to return manknd to perfection, but only after weve exhausted ourselves in the pursuit of life without him. The time we are in right now is closer then ever to this end time...I however am just a humble student of god's word, i dont pretend to understand it all...yet.

[Duo_Maxwell]

that the life was needless?

It's a plausible alternative.

lol,
A) where did you do this.
B) what contradicting aspects


Do It Yourself Diety (http://www.philosophers.co.uk/games/whatisgod.htm) But that site requires the user to understand logic.

human life, that which exists as it's own independant force.

So God's other creations don't have life? :lol:

we're still here. you might almost say it's a miracle

Or dumb luck.

however, since, according to you, God is not interactive in their lives, nothing will ever change (God cannot "abandon" them if He was never there), so they will continue to always have the same operating conditions.

Why would things never change? I don't believe I even mentioned that.

among which includes an amazing influx of adrenaline, and even then instances are rare.

Not necessarily. I could give you a booster shot or two of it and you'd probably be able to do it.

the human body is not designed to live forever, nor will it sustain such life. from what i understand, science has determined our greatest possible life span to be in the region of almost 200 years.

Primarily because we don't understand how to shutdown or remove the aging gene(s). Get rid of those and we could polentially live forever, barring, oh say, being smashed by a car.

you have also lost all memory of what they did and said?

All? No. Some? Yes. Many of the memories are linked to appeareance as well as the location of where they happened. Without the external stimulus, the memories will fade.

i'd put the rangers or the seals up against the monks for amount of work v. intake any day of the week.

I'll take you up on that.

when it produces a less-desirable output, you betcha it isn't.

Such as being able to be exploited to act aganist your will? ;)

they are much closer to the line at which the human body is no longer able to function, their opponent has a store in place to give him a longer time before he reaches such a po int.

Ah, you have assumed wrong again in your mislead knowledge of biology. The human body's requirements can be bended, and manipulated overtime. You outta to stop saying wrong when you there are factors you don't know about. A person who has set the minimum much lower then expected will function with fewer problems then one who's minimum is much higher with the same decrease. But then again, there are all sorts of factors that come into play, such as altitude, ability to adapt, focus...etc.

how about some figures here.

Like living at something like 18,000 feet for a decade?

it is only when you enter into it with a prejudiced viewpoint and the final decision already made that you will adopt such an attitude.

Okay, if you feel that a abandoment of history and a return to questionable methods is perfectly acceptable, sure. Testimonies have killed innocent people in the past. Testimonies can change, and change rapidly, not to mention falsified. There is a reason a testimony can no longer send a person to death row alone.

the fact remains that making examples has not proven to be a cure-all means of heading off violence before it starts.

True, but doing virtually nothing doesn't help either. Violence is up across the globe. Makes me wonder if God even cares, but then again, I have a volitarish view and everything makes logical sense, there are no paradoxes in my religion, unlike those highlighted on the link I gave you.

and the creation is cut off from it

Irrevelant. A perfection creation cannot create imperfect, regardless of seperation of the sour.ce

[heel31ok]

did i excerise MY free will to sin? obviously i have, but i was born into sin and never knew any different.

what you are effectivly saying is that i am punished with suffering because of somthing my predecessor did.
this is utterly unfair and destroys and concpet i may have had of a God that is not simply evil and malicious.
the only conclusion i can draw from my analysis of what god says and does is that he absolutly hates me.
luckily he doesnt exist, so its ok *phew*

if God does exist hes evil,
lets see now.
he created humans
he gave us free will
he created us with an inbiult inability to remain sin free.
he forces us to live in pain and suffering, and sais its becuase we sin, but he created us, so its his decison weather we are inclined to sin or not.

he effectivly created us KNOWING (omnicience) that we would sin and suffer as a result.
the guy obviously LIKES watching us suffer.
if a human created a system in which cats were given free will, but had a tendancie to curl up on the big soft rug and were electrocuted everytime they did so, the person would be banned from looking after animals and considered not right in the head.

and you still havent answer my question cpwill, although you may not have seen it, please read back till you find it. :)
God did not createman with a tendecy to sin. Man caused that tendency himself. God has provided a way to break those tendencies. If man with his free will does not choose to go that way it certainly is not God's fault. God does not enjoy watching people suffer any more than most parents enjoy watching their kids suffer. Man pushes God to the side or puts Him back on the cross to get Him out of their way so they can enjoy suffering on their own. Suffering is a direct result of the consequences of sin and God knew what sin would do and that is why He warned man not to sin. Without the possibility of sin there is no free will and not true love. The good news is that God has made a way for sin to be done away with forever and when it is ,then those who are faithful to the end will reap the benefit of a sin-free universe.All the faithful will have chosen through free will to believe God and be saved and from then on there will never be the possibility of sin again . You want perfection , it is on the way. God wants those who want to be with Him to be with Him. He wants those who choose Him to be with Him. It would be more of a cause from God for people to suffer if He made them be with Him when they did not choose to or want to. God does exist and He is good,He created man in His own image and gave us the ability to live forever inpeace and harmony with all inhabitants of the earth. He gave us the ability to remain sin free and live in a world without sickness and disease and death.A world without deterioration and decline. And all man had to do to maintain this was to not eat the frruit from one tree . I do not think that God could have made it easier, He was not trying to trick man. God knew what the total affects would be down through the centuries and said do not do it! Not because He wanted to withold from man but because He loved man and wanted perfection for him.Even through the disobedience of man God did not leave him alone and without hope. What God has done to redeem and help man back to the original state can only be described as loving and merciful.
One last thing, you are being punished by what your predecessor did because of that predecessor not because of God. Sin is passed on genetically to all who have a human father. We do not sin in a vacuum and their is no victimless crimes because the law of sowing and reaping. I am sorry that you think God is evil because of the choice your father and my father Adam made. But He gives us a chance to make Him our Father , a heavenly Father without the passing of sin on to His children ,but with the taking of our sins away. Jesus was born of a virgin thus He had no sin and He came to tell us about the Father. we all are invited through Christ to become a part of the Family of God. A family with a bloodline that is sin free and blessed instead of sinful and cursed.

[cpwill]

It's a plausible alternative.

and since neither of us could prove or disprove it in a secular means; i will content myself with the fact that i completely reject it solely on theological grounds.

Do It Yourself Diety (http://www.philosophers.co.uk/games/whatisgod.htm) But that site requires the user to understand logic.

these people's points are the usual type; the kind i've answered here half a dozen times (how can you say God loves us if bad things happen?) furthermore, they are attempting to limit God via their definitions. of course its' garunteed to adequately describe God.

So God's other creations don't have life? :lol:

not independent human life:)

Or dumb luck.

i've often noticed that the line between the two is rather perforated:)

Why would things never change? I don't believe I even mentioned that.

you asked "what happens when God abandones them", that would be a change in the support network, the circumstances of the person's life.

Not necessarily. I could give you a booster shot or two of it and you'd probably be able to do it.

which would be a pretty good sized influx of adrenaline, would'nt you say?
and again, we are not simply talking about physical-strength issues here.

Primarily because we don't understand how to shutdown or remove the aging gene(s). Get rid of those and we could polentially live forever, barring, oh say, being smashed by a car.

lol, yes, i suppose once we are able to change our design, our design will be different:)

as it is, human beings were not designed to live forever.

All? No. Some? Yes. Many of the memories are linked to appeareance as well as the location of where they happened. Without the external stimulus, the memories will fade.

some will, hopefully the lessons will remain; else, i'm afraid, it wasn't all that strong of an influence in the first place at all.

I'll take you up on that.

"bring it on":devil:

Such as being able to be exploited to act aganist your will? ;)

???

Ah, you have assumed wrong again in your mislead knowledge of biology. The human body's requirements can be bended, and manipulated overtime. You outta to stop saying wrong when you there are factors you don't know about. A person who has set the minimum much lower then expected will function with fewer problems then one who's minimum is much higher with the same decrease. But then again, there are all sorts of factors that come into play, such as altitude, ability to adapt, focus...etc.

however, the person who has practiced starving themself has still been starving themself; while they could perhaps make do with a smaller amount of food long term; they cannot lost a similar percentage of the food.

Like living at something like 18,000 feet for a decade?

alright, that's the altitude, do you have caloric intake or work-output?

Okay, if you feel that a abandoment of history and a return to questionable methods is perfectly acceptable, sure. Testimonies have killed innocent people in the past. Testimonies can change, and change rapidly, not to mention falsified. There is a reason a testimony can no longer send a person to death row alone.

and there is a reason it is still accepted in a court of law as a fully acceptable means of evidence. it is you who are abandoning historical methods; the majority of what we base our history on is testimony; first person or otherwise.

True, but doing virtually nothing doesn't help either. Violence is up across the globe. Makes me wonder if God even cares,

why are you blaming humans actions on God?

but then again, I have a volitarish view and everything makes logical sense, there are no paradoxes in my religion, unlike those highlighted on the link I gave you.

ah, well if there are no paradoxes in your universe then i dare say that your universe likley is an attempt to force reality to bend to logic, rather than trying to view logic through reality?

Irrevelant. A perfection creation cannot create imperfect, regardless of seperation of the sour.ce

if the creator is the only perfection, then yes, a perfect being can create an imperfect, were the creation to be separated from itself.

[Wilson1]

I don't see religion as a crutch, but instead, a life support system.

[Sandy Price]

Yikes! I am on the wrong forum! Being an Atheist I tend to look at human development in terms of evolution. Homosapiens have survived for millions of years by exercising their larger brains. (larger than the apes that evolved along with us)

We saw scientific proof that humans gained even more suvival skills during the earth disasters that brought out volcanic actions and then ice ages. We learned to move from such areas and live off the land of other animal and plant survivors. Rational moves all!

The survival mechanism was soon bred out of us when religion became the cultural excuse for blaming something else for the disasters. I believe that the superior minds suddenly took another look at the disasters and figured out why they hit the earth. The beginning of scientific research began at that time.

The early scientists were labeled witches and evil spirits and many were put in prison just for saying the earth is round and the sun stays the same and the earth revolves around it. Heresy!!! Death!!!! Sin!!! Evil!!!

I'm amazed that so many people still believe that we are at the mercy of some spirit in heaven. I am always grateful for the rational brains that evolved much further than the religious people and those rational brains will keep us safe from our enemies. The religious people will look at the twin towers and follow Falwell into believing we deserved it for our sins.

I worry about the evolution of the human species. Without brain development we will be no better off than the chimps living in the zoo. I am also discovering that the religious people in America want those bars of safety around them. Making individual decisions seems to be a thing of the past. Look at the conservatives and how they are begging at the feet of Bush to make moral legislation to protect them from themselves.

Parents have given up treaching values to their children and want Bush to do it. Looking to the Congress to set moral laws is the most ridiculous and redundant action I've ever heard in my life. All America will slip to a single level of living on the entitlements handed out by Bush and their brains will decrease by the generation.

Hell, we breed horses for speed, we breed dogs for leading the blind and we throw out children to the mercy of the Federal Government.

[jamesrage]

Yikes! I am on the wrong forum! Being an Atheist I tend to look at human development in terms of evolution. Homosapiens have survived for millions of years by exercising their larger brains. (larger than the apes that evolved along with us)

We saw scientific proof that humans gained even more suvival skills during the earth disasters that brought out volcanic actions and then ice ages. We learned to move from such areas and live off the land of other animal and plant survivors. Rational moves all!

The survival mechanism was soon bred out of us when religion became the cultural excuse for blaming something else for the disasters. I believe that the superior minds suddenly took another look at the disasters and figured out why they hit the earth. The beginning of scientific research began at that time.

If you can actually prove evelution exist with hard core evidence then so be it.I would believe in evelution,people like you tell me thar religion is bogus and you can not even prove why it is bogus,I do not sit around tell atheist that thier faith in science is bogus.You can not even prove your statement as evidence or fact.

Hell, we breed horses for speed, we breed dogs for leading the blind and we throw out children to the mercy of the Federal Government.

It cracks me up ever time someone uses a statement like this to prove evelution.


I worry about the evolution of the human species. Without brain development we will be no better off than the chimps living in the zoo. I am also discovering that the religious people in America want those bars of safety around them. Making individual decisions seems to be a thing of the past. Look at the conservatives and how they are begging at the feet of Bush to make moral legislation to protect them from themselves.

From the way I understand human evelution we were basicly roaming around like animals and had no methods of farming,building and so on until about ten thousand years ago.


Parents have given up treaching values to their children and want Bush to do it. Looking to the Congress to set moral laws is the most ridiculous and redundant action I've ever heard in my life. All America will slip to a single level of living on the entitlements handed out by Bush and their brains will decrease by the generation.

This I some what agree with you on.It is pretty sad when a government has to makes moral laws and such when the citizens themselves can not be trusted to make moral decisians by themelves.

[Anvils Hammer]

dont worry sandy, there are many atheists here, myself included. (welcome bty)


God did not createman with a tendecy to sin. Man caused that tendency himself. God has provided a way to break those tendencies. If man with his free will does not choose to go that way it certainly is not God's fault. God does not enjoy watching people suffer any more than most parents enjoy watching their kids suffer. Man pushes God to the side or puts Him back on the cross to get Him out of their way so they can enjoy suffering on their own. Suffering is a direct result of the consequences of sin and God knew what sin would do and that is why He warned man not to sin. Without the possibility of sin there is no free will and not true love. The good news is that God has made a way for sin to be done away with forever and when it is ,then those who are faithful to the end will reap the benefit of a sin-free universe.All the faithful will have chosen through free will to believe God and be saved and from then on there will never be the possibility of sin again . You want perfection , it is on the way. God wants those who want to be with Him to be with Him. He wants those who choose Him to be with Him. It would be more of a cause from God for people to suffer if He made them be with Him when they did not choose to or want to. God does exist and He is good,He created man in His own image and gave us the ability to live forever inpeace and harmony with all inhabitants of the earth. He gave us the ability to remain sin free and live in a world without sickness and disease and death.A world without deterioration and decline. And all man had to do to maintain this was to not eat the frruit from one tree . I do not think that God could have made it easier, He was not trying to trick man. God knew what the total affects would be down through the centuries and said do not do it! Not because He wanted to withold from man but because He loved man and wanted perfection for him.Even through the disobedience of man God did not leave him alone and without hope. What God has done to redeem and help man back to the original state can only be described as loving and merciful.
One last thing, you are being punished by what your predecessor did because of that predecessor not because of God. Sin is passed on genetically to all who have a human father. We do not sin in a vacuum and their is no victimless crimes because the law of sowing and reaping. I am sorry that you think God is evil because of the choice your father and my father Adam made. But He gives us a chance to make Him our Father , a heavenly Father without the passing of sin on to His children ,but with the taking of our sins away. Jesus was born of a virgin thus He had no sin and He came to tell us about the Father. we all are invited through Christ to become a part of the Family of God. A family with a bloodline that is sin free and blessed instead of sinful and cursed.

this is.. . erm..
you logic it totally wrong
you say that God, who is ommnicient, created us, but did not create us to sin.
im not sayign he did, he created us with a very strong tendancy to sin.
he had the choice between giving us free will with a very strong aversion to sin, or giving us free will and making us in such a way that we would frequently sin.
surly if he didnt want me to sin, he would have made me to i almost automatically chooose not so sin, in exactly the same way that i choose almost automatically not to jump in front of a car.
the fact is that if god created us, he created us with a tendancy to sin.
you counter this with

"God did not create man with a tendecy to sin. Man caused that tendency himself"

man caused that tendancy to sin
just as a computer causes its self to crash ocasionally.
what made man cause this tendancy?
what made the computer cause this tendancy to crash?
its the way the computer was made.
and its the way we were made
the computer was designed and programmed in a bad way that made it tend toward crashing.
God is ommnicient, and thus CANNOT accidently create man with a tendancy to sin, it MUST have been deliberate.

"Sin is passed on genetically to all who have a human father"

statments like this make it difficult for me to think think of you relgiion as more than a joke, let along analysis it rationally, but i will try.

..you genuinly believe that I am at fualt because of somthing someone else, thousands of year ago, did.
you think that i am at fault, automatically,m becuase i was born of a human father.
you do realise, that as i did not choose to be born,this is contradictory to the idea of free will.
i did not freely choose to be born, and as a result of somthing i did not choose, i am punished. this means i have no choice but to accept the punnishement decided by god.

i presume, that you think the son of a murderer should be executed? and that the son of a theif should be punnished equally?
yes?
why on earth not?
surly whats right for god is right for mankind, yes?
is your objection due to the fact that it makes no sense at all, and is totally unfair to punish the sone for a fathers crime.
what about punnishing the son for the crimes of a randon person, on another continent?

[Anvils Hammer]

a question to anyone who is relgious, drawing on what has been said.

1. given that god gave us free will
2. and that despite this, there are still some things that 99.9% of all humans WILL NOT DO, such as jumping of a bridge.
3. thus it is possible for us ot have free will, but still have in built emotions that make the prospect of us doing certain things extreemly remote.

its obviouse that we have an overriding emotion "DO NOT KILL YOURSELF".
this is apparent from the fact that hardly anyone does.
who gave us this emotion? god did, becuase he created us.
we do have free will, becuase you have said god gave it to us.

is there any logical difference between the emotion "DO NOT KILL YOURSELF", and the emtotion "DO NOT KILL ANY HUMAN BEING".

there isnt, and god could easily have given us the latter, as he created us.


why didnt he?

[ranger]

a question to anyone who is relgious, drawing on what has been said.

1. given that god gave us free will
2. and that despite this, there are still some things that 99.9% of all humans WILL NOT DO, such as jumping of a bridge.We have the ability to reason. We undertand the consequinces of jumping off a bridge. We freely choose to jump or not.
3. thus it is possible for us ot have free will, but still have in built emotions that make the prospect of us doing certain things extreemly remote. It is called survival. We do sometimes act purely on this instinct but it is an ability God allowed us, it is not God controlling our actions.

Its obviouse that we have an overriding emotion "DO NOT KILL YOURSELF".
this is apparent from the fact that hardly anyone does.probably not an emotion since emotional people tend to be the ones that commit suicide.

is there any logical difference between the emotion "DO NOT KILL YOURSELF", and the emtotion "DO NOT KILL ANY HUMAN BEING".Yes there is. None of us have the "do not kill any human being" except maybe on an emotional level. The instinct to survive is what allows us to kill others in self defense. It is our understanding of the consequences that keeps most of us from killing ourselves.

there isnt, and god could easily have given us the latter, as he created us.

why didnt he?As I pointed out above. That would be counterproductive to survival.

[heel31ok]

dont worry sandy, there are many atheists here, myself included. (welcome bty)




this is.. . erm..
you logic it totally wrong
you say that God, who is ommnicient, created us, but did not create us to sin. He only created us with the possibility to sin. im not sayign he did, he created us with a very strong tendancy to sin.
he had the choice between giving us free will with a very strong aversion to sin, or giving us free will and making us in such a way that we would frequently sin.
surly if he didnt want me to sin, he would have made me to i almost automatically chooose not so sin, in exactly the same way that i choose almost automatically not to jump in front of a car.
the fact is that if god created us, he created us with a tendancy to sin.
you counter this with

"God did not create man with a tendecy to sin. Man caused that tendency himself" Correct!
man caused that tendancy to sin
just as a computer causes its self to crash ocasionally.
what made man cause this tendancy?
what made the computer cause this tendancy to crash?
its the way the computer was made.
and its the way we were made
the computer was designed and programmed in a bad way that made it tend toward crashing.
God is ommnicient, and thus CANNOT accidently create man with a tendancy to sin, it MUST have been deliberate. He did not create man with a tendency to sin. He created him to have free will and told him what the results of obedience and disobedience was . When man made the choice to disobey then it created a tenedency to sin.

"Sin is passed on genetically to all who have a human father"

statments like this make it difficult for me to think think of you relgiion as more than a joke, let along analysis it rationally, but i will try.
Why would that be hard for one to understand? ..you genuinly believe that I am at fualt because of somthing someone else, thousands of year ago, did.
you think that i am at fault, automatically,m becuase i was born of a human father. You were born with a sin nature , a birth defect as it were caused by the things your ancestors did and the lifestyle they chose. They chose for you and left alone with it you and I and everyone is doomed to live with it and eventually die from it. GOD MADE THE WAY TO RECOVER FROM IT AND BE CHANGED!Children born with defects did not choose it but they have it and unless an intervention is made they die or suffer greatly from it. No one chooses to be born except CHRIST who made an intervention on behalf of the human race who He loves and does not want it to be left to the ravaging effects of sin and death.
you do realise, that as i did not choose to be born,this is contradictory to the idea of free will. You did not choose to be born but you can choose to live !
i did not freely choose to be born, and as a result of somthing i did not choose, i am punished. this means i have no choice but to accept the punnishement decided by god. The punishment was decided by sin. i presume, that you think the son of a murderer should be executed? and that the son of a theif should be punnished equally?
yes? why on earth not?
surly whats right for god is right for mankind, yes?
is your objection due to the fact that it makes no sense at all, and is totally unfair to punish the sone for a fathers crime.
what about punnishing the son for the crimes of a randon person, on another continent? No one is punished for another persons sin. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. If you or I had not sinned then the
we would not need forgiveness. A thief's son is punished when he follows in the footsteps of his father and unless he is taught differently then he will. An intervention must be made or the son will think that the way of life of the father is natural and the right thing to do. The only person to be punished for the sins of another was Jesus Christ who knew no sin but became sin for us that we might be redeemed. God does not hedge his bets and tip things in His favor because he is God he laid out the foundation of the world and the human race to have beings that will work and rule with Him and choose this freely without coercion. He has the faith that right and good are greater than evil and wickedness. This is not a game to be won by using secret tricks and stacking the deck in your favor, or in God's favor.God does not have to defeat evil because evil has no hold or effect on Him because in Him is no evil. It is for us this is being played out , for us to overcome and defeat evil and in the end be done with it for good. The casualties of evil are a neccessity for this to play out in mankind's favor. All have the same chance and same choices to be overcome with evil or overcome evil with good. It is not His will that anyone should perish, but it is not His choice it is our choice.

[Anvils Hammer]

heel31ok,
you say
"No one is punished for another persons sin"
and then you say (for some reason you put it in the middle of the quote of me)

"You were born with a sin nature , a birth defect as it were caused by the things your ancestors did and the lifestyle they chose"

these statments contradict each other.

i do not have a defect of any sort, i am as genetically perfect as any other human being. your logic seems to be-
god created me,
with a defect caused by the actions of other people
this defect will cause me to fall short of gods glory.
unless i correct it,
by obeying gods teachings
correct so far?

i am not aware of any defect, so why should i try and "cure" it.
why do i need forgiveness?
what have i done to need it?
even if god does exist, and he created me, why should i follow his rules?
to be honest i dont understand your answer very well, it seems to me that without faith unsupported by evidence, your views would fall apart.
my view can be proved, in my mind atleast

[Anvils Hammer]

We have the ability to reason. We undertand the consequinces of jumping off a bridge. We freely choose to jump or not.
It is called survival. We do sometimes act purely on this instinct but it is an ability God allowed us, it is not God controlling our actions.

probably not an emotion since emotional people tend to be the ones that commit suicide.

Yes there is. None of us have the "do not kill any human being" except maybe on an emotional level. The instinct to survive is what allows us to kill others in self defense. It is our understanding of the consequences that keeps most of us from killing ourselves.

As I pointed out above. That would be counterproductive to survival.

wel done, youve prooved my point
you say
"We do sometimes act purely on this instinct but it is an ability God allowed us, it is not God controlling our actions"

so we agree- god can give us instincts that effectily stop us doing things.
but not totally ,we still have free will, but as a result of instincts, we nominally choose the same action.

my bad, emotion was totally the wrong word ot use, and i knew it, but couldent think of anythin better, sorry. i hope you know what i mean,


your argument that we need to be able to kill for survival is not valid, but it does make me need to argue my point more clearly.
instead of a choice between to sets of instinct "do not kill yourself" and "do not kill any human being"
god has a choice between,
"you may kill to defend youself"
or
"you may not kill anyone, and you do not need to, as anybody who threatens your life ALSO has the same instict of not killing you, so would not be a threat"
you see if everyone had the same instict not to kill, there would be no need for weapons, except for tools like hunting rifles.

if you think that its nesscary for us ot be able to kill to servive.
answer this- why is it that of EVERY species on earth, man is the only one that kills its own species.
(and yes i know about red ants and black ants, but they are separate species)

the fact is that god could easily have given us the instint that would have stopped us from fighting and killing each other, this is fact.

why didint he?

[cpwill]

I don't see religion as a crutch, but instead, a life support system.

indeed.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Cpwill: We're going nowhere. I'm not getting anything but wasting time here.

However, you're wrong about this one

and there is a reason it is still accepted in a court of law as a fully acceptable means of evidence. it is you who are abandoning historical methods; the majority of what we base our history on is testimony; first person or otherwise.

While it is acceptated as a piece of evidence, the weight a testimony is given has greatly decreased over the past few decades. If you even bothered to researched, testimonies in the past have been alterted and falsified invaliding numerous court results, and leading to the freedom of countless prisoners or retrials. Heck, the testimonies in the Stewart case were questionable. There is a reason 26 innocent people went to the grave, executed by the state. Many of them were convicted on a single testimony. There's a reason a testiomony can no longer alone send a person to death row. It is not my fault you refuse to do anything besides recite your typical speech that is ignorant of the legal past.

[cpwill]

i am fully aware of the change in the status of eyewitnesses in the last few decades, however, realize that as the number of witnesses who agree go up, so does the credibility the court gives them. in this case, you are dealing with literally millions of witnesses.;)

on a side note, what 26 cases are you refferring to.

[Duo_Maxwell]

i am fully aware of the change in the status of eyewitnesses in the last few decades, however, realize that as the number of witnesses who agree go up, so does the credibility the court gives them. in this case, you are dealing with literally millions of witnesses.;)

on a side note, what 26 cases are you refferring to.

But testimonies are often coupled with proof to create