A Question For Believers

[mahayana]

Why do you think that souls (spirits) exist?

I've asked a similar question several times on here, what evidence do you have that souls exist? And the odd thing is that, though most belong to a religion that assumes we all have immortal souls, or consider themselves "spiritual" beings, my question has met deafening silence. Even from a retired preist and one being trained in the ministry. It seems almost as universal as belief in God, but with no defense of the idea.

Thought about putting up a poll about this, with answers ranging from "it's obvious" through "it's nonsense" but the answers in between are not exclusive. There was a thread asking about religious experiences, but if you've had one of these or a ghost encounter, you would probably agree with every degree of belief about the basic assumption.

So, believer, please tell me why.

[mahayana]

A old friend of mine (who is a zen monk with a masters in philosophy) wrote this when I asked him about souls:

"Mostly, I think otherworldly speculations are in incredible crock. I'm pretty thoroughly naturalistic in my outlook. On the other hand, the fact of existence itself in marvelous, miraculous and worthy of awe.

And also, there's an inevitable interdependence of mind and reality. They can't be explained or defined without reference to each other. There's a circularity between them that makes it impossible to call one more primary than the other."

My reply:

"Of course, I'm much the same as you. Biology and chemistry and physics make more sense than someone saying "this is what we Catholics (any religion or philosophy) believe." Of all the spiritual ideas, telepathy is the only one I believe in, and it could well be a natural phenomenon of life/brainwaves, etc.

It's really enough to have the connectedness feeling of no-mind. The explanations of origin, cause, the nature of god, etc, are mainly confusions I can do without. Not that I will stop listening and reading about this stuff, hah!

Someone in a japanese-subtitled black and white movie last night said "this is the way it is: you'll spend your whole life not really knowing, and then you'll die."

I like the "meditation uncovers that which is not covered" koan.

[Sandy Price]

I tend not to believe in the supernatural or mystical subjects of anykind. I guess that makes me an Atheist. As this thread is for "believers" only I will simply move on.

I read into this early this morning to see why so many people feel they actually claim to believe in a God. Is it to make them a part of a team? I see by people's actions that individuality is fading quickly from our American culture and society. This trouble me as it sets up our children to be a part of a peer group culture that is dangerous to their lives.

I was much more secure when people kept their religion to the home and church. Now that is has become a political action, I feel the peer group will destroy our freedoms and we will end up living in a Police State.

[cpwill]

what evidence do i have that souls exist?

are you looking for empirical evidence, scientifically testable, or why do I think souls exist?

[Sandy]

No. I actually don't care.

[heel31ok]

As I understand it , mankind was created body , soul and spirit. Body being the physical house we live in. Soul being ones mind, thoughts, intellect, emotions, and personality. Spirit being our actual life force or energy from the very breath of God. The spirit being our connection to God. By souls I assume you mean that part of people that exist outside the physical and in religious circles the part of a person that goes to heaven or hell or wherever. i think the soul/ spirit exists because that it what we really are . We are not this physicall shell , but who we really are is in the soul and spirit. Why does it exist? Because God is a Spirit and we were created in His image. Though the image has faded due to the effects of sin. I would have to say that outside the redemption of Christ that ones spirit does not exist.When God told Adam he would surely die if he sinned this was part of that reference. The spirit of adam died when he disobeyed God. He did not die physically right away but set into motion the deterioration of the physical body and resulting eventually in death. But at the same time the spirit died causing a separation between man and God, because God is a Spirit and they that worship Him , must worship Him in spirit and in truth.Adam became dead in his trespasses and sins. This is why Jesus said you must be born again to become alive unto God. The spirit of man is reborn and that separation from God is dissolved. So probably not an answer you will accept , but the evidence of the existence of spirits is in those who have been born again and are made alive unto God. This evidence is real in the lives of those who are born again because you know in your mind something has changed and you see in you walk with God the growth in understanding of spiritual things and at diferent times you can feel the presence of God in your spirit . Which is the way He comes into your life.

[mahayana]

what evidence do i have that souls exist?

are you looking for empirical evidence, scientifically testable, or why do I think souls exist?

Actually, both. I like religious people, just don't understand their bacic concepts. So, why do you believe in souls, CP, and have you heard of any empirical evidence?

[mahayana]

I'm not meaning to exclude you, Sandy and Heel. I think you've taken the "it's nonsense" and "it's obvious" positions. I'm in the middle, seeking hints to the truth of this idea. Most buddhists (that I've met) believe that every living thing has an immortal soul, and that we're all part of God's spirit. To me, it's an open question. Telepathy I have at least personal anecdotal evidence for. But as for spirits, the closest I have is rumors that there have been people who, when hypnotised, could speak fluently in languages they did not know (this as evidence of past lives).

Do believers just parrot what their culture taught them, or is there a basis for asserting that each of us is essentially immortal?

[2ruballa]

Why do you thinks minds exist? Have you ever seen one?

[mahayana]

Sure. I see evidence of minds (or brain functions) every day. Your post was an example. And the written word could almost be thought of as immortal, or having the possibility to go on after death. I'm not sure which side you're arguing.

[crawfish]

Faith. :)

[cpwill]

Actually, both. I like religious people, just don't understand their bacic concepts. So, why do you believe in souls, CP, and have you heard of any empirical evidence?

the only emipircal evidence i have ever heard of is an as-of-yet unexplained loss of weight upon death. :shrug:

but heck, we don't even know how electronic impulses in the brain somehow equal thought yet.

the rest of my evidence is purely personal.

[Seth928]

Why do you think the people around you exist?

What evidence do you have other than electrical signals sent to your brain (whoa I know Kung-fu). Really though what other evidence is there than that, these signals can readily be falsifyed once you have experienced a sensation what is to say that they can't be manufactured. Why do I believe the people around me exist? Because I do. What evidence do I have? Absolutely zero. Why should I believe it? Because I want to, it is comforting. Apply these same Q and As to the soul and you have my answer.

[mahayana]

I can accept that most people believe in a spirit world. Many cultures have a fear of the dead coming back to do them harm. My first wife had recurring out-of-body experiences (during sleep) though her version of the "other side" is not particularly Christian. I can understand reluctance to share the actual things that have convinced you.

As for "life is a dream" and "I believe because I want to", that is rather evasive, no? My real reason for this question may have to do with discomfort with mortality. Did I really ask to come here, do I have a purpose, will I be back kind of soul-searching?

[mahayana]

What? Are there no spirit-guides among us at Whistlestopper? Everybody loves a good ghost story...what have you heard lately? I'd even be happy for links on this subject.

I'm asking to be convinced, or at least pushed in the right direction.

[jamesrage]

Why do you think that souls (spirits) exist?

It is a gut feeling that I have why I believe that we have souls.

[mahayana]

Of course, I have the same feeling. Almost every human, from the time they are born, is told about this. No wonder that the idea seems correct, feels right. Almost every R&B song , every hymn, contains the word (as every hispanic song contains corazon). A whole class of movies, fictional literature, everybody's bible, is steeped in the assumption.

We really don't want to die, or to have death be an ending for our individual existence. So we take infants and sprinkle them with water to protect them from the bad place, assure the gatherers at each funeral that someone moved on, but is still alive in some sense. And I agree that they exist in the memories that remain, in each person they touched, everything their life changed. The question is whether they are invisibly floating near the ceiling of the chapel, watching the mourners, feeling joy or sadness, later maybe to "communicate" with their loved ones (or to seek revenge on their enemies). Or perhaps they already walked down a tunnel of light, and are hanging out with other dead folks?

[jamesrage]

I had this gut feeling that I have a soul even before I became a christian.

[Secession]

We delude ourselves because we can't deal with reality.

[mahayana]

My problem is that I don't feel it's a delusion, just seek some kind of confirmation. Almost everyone believes in spirits, but the ones that charge money to the bereaved, to put them in touch, seem like hucksters. And the whole thing seems mixed up with ghost-busters and sacrificing chickens.

[cpwill]

buckcbuckbuckbKAW!!!!:D

[mahayana]

Well, voodoo is a Catholic permutation, the egg is a symbol of the soul, and Jesus did make the prediction of being denied thrice before the **** crows.

I just never did understand how blood sacrifice (taking innocent life while praying) could possible please the Almighty. Or bring doom to your enemies. It seems to be breaking a commandment ( if you don't change "kill" to "murder, unless you have license").

[cpwill]

you don't have to change anything; the hebrew word translates as "murder"

[Secession]

My problem is that I don't feel it's a delusion, just seek some kind of confirmation. Almost everyone believes in spirits, but the ones that charge money to the bereaved, to put them in touch, seem like hucksters. And the whole thing seems mixed up with ghost-busters and sacrificing chickens.

Ask the man who sees people burst into flames, or the one who is compelled by voices in his head to kill people if their delusions don't seem real. That doesn't make you any more likely to accept them, does it? This particular insanity being widespread does not give it any validity.

[Anvils Hammer]

i would love ot believe i have a soul, the idea that i am somthing more than electrical impulses is very comforting.
but unfortunatly, i cant believe that, as i know it to be incorrect.

it is possible that humans do have somthing, some inner essece that makes them human, i deduce this from the fact that we are an advanced civilisation while other animal species are not.
i cant proove it either way, but i like to believe i have somthing there.
a good compromise for me is that i do have an "essence" that makes me human, but when i die, it will die as well.

[ranger]

i would love ot believe i have a soul, the idea that i am somthing more than electrical impulses is very comforting.
but unfortunatly, i cant believe that, as i know it to be incorrect.

it is possible that humans do have somthing, some inner essece that makes them human, i deduce this from the fact that we are an advanced civilisation while other animal species are not.
i cant proove it either way, but i like to believe i have somthing there.
a good compromise for me is that i do have an "essence" that makes me human, but when i die, it will die as well.My belief is that all living things have a soul and that soul is the animating force that makes us different from non living things. As a Christian I believe as Jesus told us, we humans have an immortal soul.

[mahayana]

I think the "eternal soul that goes somewhere" is definitely central to the Christian paradigm. I'm not so sure Jesus was into that (despite the many heaven and hell statements atrtributed to him). I'll reread the gospels again, see if "the Kingdom is within" makes more sense this time.

CP, I should probably not interfere with your views on Exodus 20, 13. I see all the prohibitions as counter-measures to common human inclinations. We are natural-born killers who enjoy spilling blood and taking life. I do understand where you're coming from, only mentioned this in the context of "releasing" souls for the "remission of sins" or some such. The culture gives mixed messages, "first, do no harm" is clearer to me ( I think a hippopotamus said that).

[Kagmi]

I agree ranger, and may I point out something to those who beleive humans to be nothing more than biochemical machines: If anybody here is a physics buff, they know that the present formulation of quantum mechanics says that the paths of particles are affected by observations in ways that they are not affected by interacting with inanimate matter. What then is so special about observers?
I'd also very much like such occurences as near death, out of body, and other experiences while there is supposedly no activity in the brain. Anyone care to make a proposal?

[MikeD4o7]

I agree ranger, and may I point out something to those who beleive humans to be nothing more than biochemical machines: If anybody here is a physics buff, they know that the present formulation of quantum mechanics says that the paths of particles are affected by observations in ways that they are not affected by interacting with inanimate matter. What then is so special about observers?
I'd also very much like such occurences as near death, out of body, and other experiences while there is supposedly no activity in the brain. Anyone care to make a proposal?

I think looking for "spirituality" or the supernatural in quantum physics is along the same lines as what humans have always done... confuse the awesomeness and mysteries of this universe with a supernatural or spiritual being. Things like Schroedinger's Cat are certainly amazing and perplexing aspects of the world we live in... but that doesn't mean that it necessarily indicates something along the lines of a soul or God. Materialism died with quantum physics, but proof of God wasn't born out of it.

[mahayana]

"I think looking for "spirituality" or the supernatural in quantum physics is along the same lines as what humans have always done... confuse the awesomeness and mysteries of this universe with a supernatural or spiritual being."

I find it admirable when religious people attempt to integrate science with their views. "Now we see dimly, as through darkened glass. Then it shall become clear."

Well, the glass is much clearer now, but some things remain invisible. Credulity is another universal human trait, though science has some built-in safeguards against it (admitting that it could be wrong, requiring independent verification, duplication of results).

[playaazul]

Why do you think that souls (spirits) exist?

I've asked a similar question several times on here, what evidence do you have that souls exist? And the odd thing is that, though most belong to a religion that assumes we all have immortal souls, or consider themselves "spiritual" beings, my question has met deafening silence. Even from a retired preist and one being trained in the ministry. It seems almost as universal as belief in God, but with no defense of the idea.

Thought about putting up a poll about this, with answers ranging from "it's obvious" through "it's nonsense" but the answers in between are not exclusive. There was a thread asking about religious experiences, but if you've had one of these or a ghost encounter, you would probably agree with every degree of belief about the basic assumption.

So, believer, please tell me why.

I believe there are two kinds of truth. Fact based and faith based. "Faith is the bird that feels the light and sings while the dawn is still dark."

[mahayana]

I believe there are two kinds of truth. Fact based and faith based. "Faith is the bird that feels the light and sings while the dawn is still dark."

Hmmm...I guess I did start this as a kind of "fact-based initiative." Looking for links to the hypnotism phenomenon, heat images of ghosts, tape recordings from seances, something to check out. Short of that, even personal anecdotal evidence would be welcome. I have a friend who dreams about being on a certain Civil War expedition, where he is killed. My wife has recurring dreams about a certain Victorian-style house, her home in another time. Don't any of you have reasons to think you have a soul, other than that was what you you were told?

I do like bird analogies, like "blackbird singing in the dead of night...take your broken wings and learn to fly. All your life, you were only waiting for this moment to arrive." And, of course, Noah's dove.

It was funny earlier in this thread, when CP did his chicken imitation, also where the program didn't like Jesus saying "you will deny me three times before the **** crows." I could see having a rooster, and naming it Faith. :)

[cpwill]

if i had a rooster, i would name it "lunch":D

[mahayana]

Maybe I should get into all the folklore about souls and spirits; do any of you believe in or have personal experiences with good spirits (like angels, fairies, caring or instructive voices from the other side) or evil spirits (angry ghosts, things flying around the room, cold feelings of dread at certain spots, etc)? I've heard that most americans believe in angels (Touched By An Angel was a TV hit), Hollywood draws heavilly on Devil stories (soul stealing Angel Heart, Buffy, countless horror tales). What do you think of these?

Are you superstitious, psychic, fearful of eternal punishment?

[Cedars]

You were interested in links. Here's one that may interest you:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm

[mahayana]

Thanks, Cedars. I'll check that out.

Good to see you back.

[mahayana]

Ok, I read through that. It is an essay about what people have thought about soul/spirit, but up to the last sentence, nothing is said of evidence:

"Such is the Catholic doctrine on the nature, unity, substantiality, spirituality, and origin of the soul. It is the only system consistent with Christian faith, and, we may add, morals, for both Materialism and Monism logically cut away the foundations of these. The foregoing historical sketch will have served also to show another advantage it possesses -- namely, that it is by far the most comprehensive, and at the same time discriminating, syntheseis of whatever is best in rival systems. It recognizes the physical conditions of the soul's activity with the Materialist, and its spiritual aspect with the Idealist, while with the Monist it insists on the vital unity of human life. It enshrines the principles of ancient speculation, and is ready to receive and assimilate the fruits of modern research."

So, what is this modern research? Who is doing it, what have they found?

[gopman]

Looking for an explanation outside of faith, this is what I have- I believe the main difference between humans and other animals is the existence of free will. It is the way in which men resemble God ("God's image," as per Genesis). Animals make decisions based on a mechanical process. I have had only a small exposure to psychology, but I can gather that no one has a valid explanation for why we make the choices we do- other than free will. There is no physical explanation for this phenomenon, therefore I believe the answer is in the spiritual world.

[julierep]

I believe that we all have spirits, but once we die (regardless of faith) that we are "asleep" until the return of Christ. That is when all of us will be raised for judgement.

[MikeD4o7]

Looking for an explanation outside of faith, this is what I have- I believe the main difference between humans and other animals is the existence of free will. It is the way in which men resemble God ("God's image," as per Genesis). Animals make decisions based on a mechanical process. I have had only a small exposure to psychology, but I can gather that no one has a valid explanation for why we make the choices we do- other than free will. There is no physical explanation for this phenomenon, therefore I believe the answer is in the spiritual world.


I think that's simply not true. It's not quite like we can look at the animal world, then look at humanity, and claim there's no behavioral connection. Look at the actions of our closest relatives. Chimps, bonobos, apes... you'll find friendship bonds, homicide, different personalities... basic tool usage... I've even seen young chimps that have "pet items", not unlike a child would have a security blanket.

The distinction between humanity and the rest of the world is two things. We have a very advanced symbolic capacity. You can describe something to me that I will be able to very well imagine without having ever seen it... we can conceptualize. Because of our symbolic capacity, we can construct languages based on symbols... which makes our communication with each other infinitely varied and flexible... it also allows us to pass along culture from one generation to the next, allowing humanity to build on all of its acheivments cumulatively.

[xexon]

Spirits exist. To think that creation is limited by your human senses is the height of folly. "Spirits" are simply on a frequency you as a human cannot receive. It doesn't mean they don't exist. You are never alone with yourself. It is your limited reception that blinds you to all that swirls about your "self".

There are "intrusions" from time to time, where the two worlds blend, because creation has many currents and eddies. Sometimes, logs bump up against one another.




x

[Cedars]

Ok, I read through that. It is an essay about what people have thought about soul/spirit, but up to the last sentence, nothing is said of evidence:

"Such is the Catholic doctrine on the nature, unity, substantiality, spirituality, and origin of the soul. It is the only system consistent with Christian faith, and, we may add, morals, for both Materialism and Monism logically cut away the foundations of these. The foregoing historical sketch will have served also to show another advantage it possesses -- namely, that it is by far the most comprehensive, and at the same time discriminating, syntheseis of whatever is best in rival systems. It recognizes the physical conditions of the soul's activity with the Materialist, and its spiritual aspect with the Idealist, while with the Monist it insists on the vital unity of human life. It enshrines the principles of ancient speculation, and is ready to receive and assimilate the fruits of modern research."

So, what is this modern research? Who is doing it, what have they found?

When I read that ("READY to receive and assimilate the fruits of modern research"), I took that to mean that modern research or science will be welcome. In other words, it is READY for, or will withstand, modern research.

I am not sure what kind of "evidence" will satisfy you. Belief in the soul stems from belief in God and God's Word.

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Gen. 2:7)

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. " (Mat 10:28)

"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. " (Mark 12:30)

"And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. " (Luke 10:27)

[gopman]

I think that's simply not true. It's not quite like we can look at the animal world, then look at humanity, and claim there's no behavioral connection. Look at the actions of our closest relatives. Chimps, bonobos, apes... you'll find friendship bonds, homicide, different personalities... basic tool usage... I've even seen young chimps that have "pet items", not unlike a child would have a security blanket.

The distinction between humanity and the rest of the world is two things. We have a very advanced symbolic capacity. You can describe something to me that I will be able to very well imagine without having ever seen it... we can conceptualize. Because of our symbolic capacity, we can construct languages based on symbols... which makes our communication with each other infinitely varied and flexible... it also allows us to pass along culture from one generation to the next, allowing humanity to build on all of its acheivments cumulatively.

Using tools and such may represent intelligence, but is nothing like making moral decisions. There is something more at work to those decisions than just symbolic thought, too.

[MikeD4o7]

Using tools and such may represent intelligence, but is nothing like making moral decisions. There is something more at work to those decisions than just symbolic thought, too.


I would argue that morality too comes from intelligence. Our intelligence gives us the ability to understand our own situation, but more importantly, it gives us the ability to empathize with other people and their situations. Empathy, I believe, is the root of all morality... and although it's much stronger in humans... I would also argue that it's not completely non-existent in the animal world. Talk to anyone that studies primates... they'll tell you that they display very human emotions, and display things like sympathy, jealousy, etc etc

[mahayana]

It looks like we have two discussions here. Mike, it doesn't surprise me at all that chimpanzees have minds and personalities and intelligence. Our DNA is about 99% identical to theirs. Intelligence in animals is obvious to anyone who has pets, or hangs out at a farm or stable, or even is a hunter. Were you suggesting that they have souls, if we do?

Cedars, any evidence at all is what I seek. As your article noted, belief in some kind of spirit world, some kind of soul, is almost universal and has been around since pre-history."I believe because I was told so" is the commonest answer. It's a matter of faith, whether in unseen vibrations or revealed truth. I have the same predisposition to believe, just being honest in saying I don't know.

[Cedars]

Cedars, any evidence at all is what I seek. As your article noted, belief in some kind of spirit world, some kind of soul, is almost universal and has been around since pre-history."I believe because I was told so" is the commonest answer. It's a matter of faith, whether in unseen vibrations or revealed truth. I have the same predisposition to believe, just being honest in saying I don't know.

Okay, just wanting to make sure you're not looking for actual physical evidence, or matter, such as what science deals with, because the soul is not matter; it is spirit. It is all good and well to have faith, but searching for truth and knowledge about God is surely a better relationship than just blind faith. When one human loves another human, getting to know the other person and wanting to learn all about them shows your love in willing to know. It should be no different in our relationship with God. Frank J. Sheed (author of "Theology for Beginners") has written a terrific explanation of the soul. Forgive me for quoting him at great lengths, but truly, I cannot say it any better, and I regret there is not enough space to quote all of what he said.

Sheed states that our body knows nothing, loves nothing, decides nothing; but spirit knows and loves, and has power too (the power of the mind). "This mingling of spirit and matter in human actions arises from a fact which distinguishes man's spirit from all others. Ours is the only spirit which is also a soul--that is to say, the life principle in a body. God is a spirit, but has no body; the angels are spirits, but have no body. Only in man spirit is united with a body, animates the body, makes it to be a living body. Every living body--vegetable, lower animal, human--has a life-principle, a soul. And just as ours is the only spirit which is a soul, so ours is the only soul which is a spirit." Sheed states that spirit does a number of things: it knows and loves, and it animates a body -- and one thing particularly is that it produces ideas. "The soul or spirit is not matter; and if we are continuously producing things which have no attribute of matter, it seems reasonable to conclude that there is in us some element which is not matter to produce them. This element we call spirit." "Our ideas are not material. They have no resemblance to our body. Their resemblance is to our spirit. They have no shape, no size, no color, no weight, no space. Neither has spirit, whose offspring they are. But no one can call it nothing, for it produces thought, and thought is the most powerful thing in the world--unless love is, which spirit also produces." "A spirit differs from a material thing by having no parts ... Our soul has no parts, for it is spirit ... a being which has no parts does not occupy space ... it is superior to the need for space." "The power to make judgments is at the very root of man's power to live and to develop in the mastery of himself and his environment. And the power to make judgments is dependent upon the partlessness of the soul--one single, undivided thinking principle to take hold of and hold in one all the concepts we wish to compare."

"One further truth remains to be stated about spirit. It is the permanent thing, the abiding thing ... spirit is the being which as a permanent hold upon what it is, so that it can never become anything else. Material beings can be destroyed in the sense that they can be broken up into their constituent parts; what has parts can be taken apart. But a partless being lies beyond all this. Nothing can be taken from it, because there is nothing in it but its whole of existence. This would be annihilation. But just as only God can create from nothing by willing a being to exist, so only God can reduce a being to nothing by willing it no longer to exist; and for the human soul, God has told us that he will not thus will it out of existence."

"A spiritual being, therefore, cannot lose its identity. It can experience changes in its relation to other beings--e.g., it can gain new knowledge or lose knowledge that it has; it can transfer its love from this object to that; it can develop its power over matter; its own body can cease to respond to its animating power and death follows for the body--but with all these changes it remains itself, conscious of itself, permanent."

"But our soul is not God's equal, it is only his image. For God is infinite, we are not." "Whatever perfection there is, God has it totally. Apply this notion of limit to our own soul; it knows certain things but they are a mere drop in the ocean of things it doesn't know; its knowing is limited. So is its loving. So is its power. There are none of these limits in God--he is all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful." "The soul owes its existence to God."
(cont.)

[Cedars]

"Every student of philosophy ... all know that there must be a being which did not need to be made. If nothing existed except receivers of existence, where would the existence come from? In order that anything may exist, there must be a being which simply has it. God can confer existence upon all other beings, precisely because he has it in his own right. It is his nature to exist. God does not have to receive existence, because he is existence ... When Moses asked him his name, God said, 'I am who am' ... this is God's name for himself, I AM. Our name for him is HE IS. (The Hebrew word for this is Yahweh. The Jews, out of reverence, avoided writing God's name in full; they wrote the consonants only, JHWH. Somebody in the thirteenth century made a bad guess at the missing vowels and produced the word Jehovah. Actually there is no such word.)"

"God is changeless, so time has no meaning in relation to him. We are in time, God is in eternity ... God is changeless because he is infinite. He has all perfections. He cannot lose any of them, so there is no past into which they can flow away. Nor is there any future from which new perfections can flow to him. He has all perfections, in the present, a present which does not change and does not cease. That is eternity. The universe he created is not like that. Things come and go. Change is continuous. Time and the universe started together. ... You and I and all of us are in time, which means that we are never at any moment the whole of ourselves. What we were last year, what we shall be next year, all belongs to our total being; but last year has gone and next year has not arrived. There never is a moment when we are all there. We possess our being, the philosophers say, successively. Not so God. All that he is, he possesses in one single act of being. Eternity does not mean everlasting time, time open at both ends, so that however far you go back into the past there is no beginning, however far you go forward in the future, there is no end. Eternity is not time at all. It is God's total possession of himself."

"We are finite ... The first great activity of the infinite Spirit is knowing; with us this activity involves an immensity of change, learning what we had not known, forgetting what we had; in both cases the change comes from our finiteness, in the one case from ignorance, in the other from a defect of memory; but God knows all things, merely by being God, and there is no forgetfulness for him; so that his activity of knowing is at once limitless and changeless; he is omniscient."

"His other great activity is loving; and that again for men involves change, waxing and waning, finding new objects, losing hold upon things already loved; hence again the change comes from our limitations; God loves with infinite loving-power: no loss possible, no increase conceivable. He knows and loves with infinite intensity, and this is not stagnation but measureless vitality."

"God is all-powerful, too. There are no limits to what he can do, no limits to what he can make. The most powerful man cannot make anything of nothing at all, He needs some material to work upon, and in the absence of material his power must lie all locked up within him and unusable. That is a solid limitation and God lacks it. He needs no material--he creates."

"Because God is infinite, there is no distinction between his attributes and himself ... My knowing is something that I do, but it is not myself. This may not strike us as a limitation but it is, and a considerable one. If only my knowledge were myself, I should be knowing all the time, simply by being; I should not have to make a distinct effort to know; I should never forget. But, as it is, my knowledge is less than myself; I am finite enough, heaven knows, but my knowledge is more finite still."

"Just as God is knowledge, so he is love, he is justice, he is mercy. We have to think of them as distinct, in order to think of them at all; but in him they are not distinct from his very self, and therefore not from one another. Whatever God has, he is. And these attributes are not less themselves for being infinite. God's love would not be greater by being distinct from his very self--as ours is."

[mahayana]

Cedars, thanks for sharing this statement of what makes sense to you. It has some elements that make sense to a buddhist as well (though the cups shuffled so fast that it's hard to guess which one covers the pea).

So, every living thing has a soul, but only humans, God, and other "spiritual beings" have spirit? Souls can be destroyed, spirit is immortal? It may take awhile to comprehend this essay, follow its logic.

[MikeD4o7]

It looks like we have two discussions here. Mike, it doesn't surprise me at all that chimpanzees have minds and personalities and intelligence. Our DNA is about 99% identical to theirs. Intelligence in animals is obvious to anyone who has pets, or hangs out at a farm or stable, or even is a hunter. Were you suggesting that they have souls, if we do?


I don't believe in souls. I think what people perceive as our "soul" is our amazingly deep capacity for self-awarness... which is simply a byproduct of our level of intelligence. Again, this is truly advanced in humans... but not absent in all other species.

"Bonobos diverged from Common Chimpanzees after the last Common Chimpanzee ancestor diverged from its last common ancestor with humans; as no other species from the human line of the branching have survived, Bonobos and Common Chimpanzees are our closest living relatives, sharing approximately 98.4% of their DNA with us. Bonobos passed the mirror-recognition test for self-awareness in 1994. They communicate through primarily vocal means, in a language that has not yet been deciphered; however, we do understand some of their natural hand gestures, such as their invitation to play. Three Bonobos, Kanzi, Panbanisha and Nyota, have been taught a vocabulary of about 400 words which they can type using a special keyboard of lexigrams (geometric symbols), and can respond to spoken sentences. "

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Bonobo

[Redratio1]

I don't believe in souls. I think what people perceive as our "soul" is our amazingly deep capacity for self-awarness... which is simply a byproduct of our level of intelligence. Again, this is truly advanced in humans... but not absent in all other species.


Everyone knows I'm Mr. Science, but there is a one this science cannot explain and that is the fact of personal perception.

I'm not talking about self-awareness, soul, or consciousness, I am talking about the fact that each of us contains a unique perspective. An observer status if you will.

A door knob does not have this property (well I hope not). But living creatures do. Now one can analyse this fact with reductionist means and say "here, this is the mass of neurons that first process sensor inputs," but you would be missing my point. The point is there is some unique property that gives us each a subjective experience, that is uniquely our own. In fact one could say it is the only thing about us that we can truely say is "I".

So how can an objective universe have subjectivity? Not subjective analysis, but pure subjectivity of the observer.

Does anyone get what I am saying?

Nevermind guys, I'm going to make a thread about it. Hold on.

[mahayana]

Mike, for awhile much was being speculated about dolphin intelligence. Do you know if we ever got very far in communicating with them?

There are lots of sci fi stories about religious/spiritual intelligent alien races. Perhaps humans aren't the only ones created in God's image? I'm still trying to see reality through the Cedar post. Our spirit is part of God and immortal, it's part of our soul (or was it vice-versa) which can be destroyed? And mind and thinking are evidence of spirit? Hmmmm...

Xenon just posted in another thread that he believes in ghosts; we live on the bottom floor of a skyscraper with many invisible floors above us full of other beings. Maybe I'll figure this stuff out.

[Cedars]

Cedars, thanks for sharing this statement of what makes sense to you. It has some elements that make sense to a buddhist as well (though the cups shuffled so fast that it's hard to guess which one covers the pea).

So, every living thing has a soul, but only humans, God, and other "spiritual beings" have spirit? Souls can be destroyed, spirit is immortal? It may take awhile to comprehend this essay, follow its logic.

Finite spirit, such as the human spirit, can be destroyed or annihilated (but God promised He would not destroy it or “will it out of existence”). According to Sheed, God, an infinite being, cannot be destroyed, because it is His nature to exist -- He Is.

The supreme aim of Christianity is eternal happiness in a state involving the employment of all the soul's activities, that of Buddhism the ultimate loss of conscious existence (nirvana).

[neoanderz]

A quick look at a lot of quotes:

"Sure. I see evidence of minds (or brain functions) every day."

Well which do you see evidence of? Minds OR brain functions? He asked if you saw evidence of minds specifically. Clear up your definitions a bit on these terms.

""Spirits" are simply on a frequency you as a human cannot receive."

Do you even know what "frequency" means? It is the number of wavelengths that pass a given point per unit time. Are you suggesting that spirits are a particular range of electomagnetic waves? Please don't try to use irrelevant scientific terminology in an attempt to add credibility to your ideas.

"Intelligence in animals is obvious to anyone who has pets, or hangs out at a farm or stable, or even is a hunter. Were you suggesting that they have souls, if we do?

Dont know about the other person, but I would certainly suggest it.

"Every student of philosophy ... all know that there must be a being which did not need to be made. If nothing existed except receivers of existence, where would the existence come from? In order that anything may exist, there must be a being which simply has it."

Why does it have to be a "being"? Couldn't it be anything? Your use of the word implies that "being" means some sort of conscious designer. There is nothing to suggest that whatever created the universe (assuming there is a creator - personally, I don't think there is) had to have any sort of intellectual capacity. It could have been some yet to be understood physical phenomenon. I think I could find quite a number of philosophy students who disagree with you despite your claim.

[mahayana]

Neoanderz- I sympathize with your clarity-seeking. You have quoted from 3 different authors above, so the definitions being used are inconsistent.

Scientists and philosophers have this problem with language, too. Words like God, mind, soul, sin, immortality...say them and people hear different things.

I am a scientist, and an existentialist, grew up in a Methodist church, practice zen...so I think I understand most of what is being said here. Not saying that it's unambiguous, like you agreeing that animals have souls, then questioning that there is a creator-being.

Xenon's view is that there is an unseen spirit world that science can't penetrate with instruments that measure electromagnatism, ion counts, temperature, etc. So the use of the word "frequency" is imprecise (though wave and particle theory also contain conflicting ideas- like in a recent article I read "Does gravity travel at the speed of light?"). Hawkins and Einstein challenge all our assumptions.

[Jessica Blue]

I don't believe in souls. I think what people perceive as our "soul" is our amazingly deep capacity for self-awarness... which is simply a byproduct of our level of intelligence. Again, this is truly advanced in humans... but not absent in all other species.I agree with you Mike. The soul as a human idea is very appealing and of course it's been around for a very long time but I cant help thinking there's alot of wishful thinking involved. Would it be so terrible if we didn't have a magically attached soul? [when and how is it inserted by the way?]

Not having one doesn't demean the wonder of us in any way....not to me anyway. The body is largely a sac of grease...but the brain! The brain is a marvel of complex interacting chemicals and wires...I see nothing bleak in this. The mind is still largely an unplummed mystery and still a beautiful concept...how fascinating that different sections control different aspects of us, like emotion and passion or language and mathematics and that they intertwine with each other and the external world and make us what we are.

If the soul is not physical and is somehow our "true essence", seperate from our physical bodies, then why does our personality change, sometimes profoundly, when parts of our brain are damaged or drug-altered..why do we become different from what we were before?

Apart from being a convenient tool for religious manipulation, I suspect the whole concept of the soul is just a poets dream...a fanciful vehicle for immortality, born of human imagination and a wish to transcend earthly reality. It's a concept which offers us an escape perhaps, from an imperfect world. But even if some sort of spiritual transcendence after death were true, I still don't see why we would need a soul. If we can be magically zapped to Paradise or whatever, then why do we need something like a soul to do it?

[MikeD4o7]

I agree with you Mike. The soul as a human idea is very appealing and of course it's been around for a very long time but I cant help thinking there's alot of wishful thinking involved. Would it be so terrible if we didn't have a magically attached soul? [when and how is it inserted by the way?]

Not having one doesn't demean the wonder of us in any way....not to me anyway. The body is largely a sac of grease...but the brain! The brain is a marvel of complex interacting chemicals and wires...I see nothing bleak in this. The mind is still largely an unplummed mystery and still a beautiful concept...how fascinating that different sections control different aspects of us, like emotion and passion or language and mathematics and that they intertwine with each other and the external world and make us what we are.

If the soul is not physical and is somehow our "true essence", seperate from our physical bodies, then why does our personality change, sometimes profoundly, when parts of our brain are damaged or drug-altered..why do we become different from what we were before?

Apart from being a convenient tool for religious manipulation, I suspect the whole concept of the soul is just a poets dream...a fanciful vehicle for immortality, born of human imagination and a wish to transcend earthly reality. It's a concept which offers us an escape perhaps, from an imperfect world. But even if some sort of spiritual transcendence after death were true, I still don't see why we would need a soul. If we can be magically zapped to Paradise or whatever, then why do we need something like a soul to do it?


Exactly! I've always thought it to be very unfair that skeptics of religion were automatically labeled pessimists... hell, I'm more optomistic than any theists I know.

[Cedars]

A quick look at a lot of quotes ...
"Every student of philosophy ... all know that there must be a being which did not need to be made. If nothing existed except receivers of existence, where would the existence come from? In order that anything may exist, there must be a being which simply has it." [-- Frank J. Sheed]

Why does it have to be a "being"? Couldn't it be anything? Your use of the word implies that "being" means some sort of conscious designer. There is nothing to suggest that whatever created the universe (assuming there is a creator - personally, I don't think there is) had to have any sort of intellectual capacity. It could have been some yet to be understood physical phenomenon. I think I could find quite a number of philosophy students who disagree with you despite your claim.
In your mind, where does this logic fail? What is your alternative to an infinite being creating existence as we know it? Many people expect science to be their “god” or their “truth.” In reality, science itself relies on the order of nature – if there were no order in this world, science could not exist because it could not define what is “natural” and what is “anomaly.” Science is observation, experiments, and research. Science did not create the world, but it is one of man’s methods to seek to understand a world that already exists. Science deals with material objects or what is known. Science is not perfect, and sometimes new discoveries point out those previous errors in belief. When scientific errors are discovered, do we suddenly stop believing in science because we believe it failed us once, it will fail us again? Of course not, this is to be expected, as again, science is learning and discovering, not creating – although man may believe he is creating on some level, he is not creating from his own internal knowing, but from what he has learned and what he has learned from others.

A lot of thinking is involved in science, and a lot of speculation –- which is sometimes fruitful and sometimes not. Speaking speculatively, the existence of God is a logical explanation for the creation of the world. Like some still-believed scientific theories (such as the Big Bang, for example), the MATERIAL proof of the creation theory is yet to be known but is assumed or believed. Of course, it could be argued that there were actually many historical witnesses to God; but for the sake of this argument, we will not consider it. Like some scientific theories, the creation theory has not been disproved, so is still viable. On the other hand, for the nonbeliever who believes in, shall we say, the Big Bang, which has no more been proven than the creation theory, he still has no material proof. Yet because there is no evidence WHICH HE BELIEVES with respect to the creation theory, he disregards it; yet he will still retain his belief in the Big Bang theory, which again, is still a theory with no more proof than the creation theory.

Theories such as The Big Bang hold no proof for believers because we realize that something or someone had to have started the Big Bang. (Did some huge blob of material suddenly come into existence and then explode? How? Still, where did the huge blob come from? Why did it come, for what reason? Why did it explode, or why did combustible material suddenly come into the world before it exploded? Who sent it, or What caused it?) There must be a cause for the effect. The creation theory resolves that. It is also the only explanation that has no holes in its logic. Remember, science cannot prove or disprove God, so the creation theory is, at the very least, AS plausible as the Big Bang Theory. And the Big Bang theory has yet to provide the cause of the big bang. Therefore, its theory has a hole in it right from the start. The “creation theory” provides that explanation. It is also the only explanation that has no holes in its logic. Some nonbelievers say, well, maybe the world always was, just as you believe that God always was. That is illogical. If one can accept that the world always was, then one can surely accept that God always was. In the same respect, if you can believe that an “anything” can create from nothing, then surely a “someone” (or a Being) can create from nothing. In fact, a Being is more plausible to be a creator than an “anything,” because a being can think, an “any THING” cannot.

Suppose you are right, and God does not exist. Scientifically speaking, in a material world of cause and effect, what CAUSED the Big Bang or the “anything” or whatever theory you ascribe to? On the other hand, suppose you are wrong and God DOES exist – how will scientists prove His existence?

So again I ask: What is YOUR perfect, 100% air-tight explanation for the world’s existence?

[xexon]

I make no distinction between God and creation and myself.

Its hard to explain the "oneness" of what I see to others who live in the world of duality. I don't blame others for their feeling of seperation from God, because it is what we are all brought up to believe. But at some point we need to look inside for God rather than up beyond the clouds somewhere.

Jesus tried to point out this direction, but he was not understood then either. "The kingdom of God is within". It is a terribly hard concept to grasp with the human mind. We can marvel at the stars, and the firminant that contains them, but it will do nothing to explain who we are or where we come from.

Do not fixate on shiny objects. You'll find your life has passed you by, and you've learned nothing, except about shiny objects.



x

[Capn' Alec]

I make no distinction between God and creation and myself.

Its hard to explain the "oneness" of what I see to others who live in the world of duality. I don't blame others for their feeling of seperation from God, because it is what we are all brought up to believe. But at some point we need to look inside for God rather than up beyond the clouds somewhere.

Jesus tried to point out this direction, but he was not understood then either. "The kingdom of God is within". It is a terribly hard concept to grasp with the human mind. We can marvel at the stars, and the firminant that contains them, but it will do nothing to explain who we are or where we come from.

Do not fixate on shiny objects. You'll find your life has passed you by, and you've learned nothing, except about shiny objects.



x
Xexon, you have a theory about God. It obviously is contrary to the Bible. So please don't take quotes from Jesus out of context and pretend that he supports whatever God you're talking about. People might actually believe that Jesus's teachings are somewhat in line with your theology, and his teachings are not. Please don't mislead people

[playaazul]

In your mind, where does this logic fail? What is your alternative to an infinite being creating existence as we know it? Many people expect science to be their “god” or their “truth.” In reality, science itself relies on the order of nature – if there were no order in this world, science could not exist because it could not define what is “natural” and what is “anomaly.” Science is observation, experiments, and research. Science did not create the world, but it is one of man’s methods to seek to understand a world that already exists. Science deals with material objects or what is known. Science is not perfect, and sometimes new discoveries point out those previous errors in belief. When scientific errors are discovered, do we suddenly stop believing in science because we believe it failed us once, it will fail us again? Of course not, this is to be expected, as again, science is learning and discovering, not creating – although man may believe he is creating on some level, he is not creating from his own internal knowing, but from what he has learned and what he has learned from others.

A lot of thinking is involved in science, and a lot of speculation –- which is sometimes fruitful and sometimes not. Speaking speculatively, the existence of God is a logical explanation for the creation of the world. Like some still-believed scientific theories (such as the Big Bang, for example), the MATERIAL proof of the creation theory is yet to be known but is assumed or believed. Of course, it could be argued that there were actually many historical witnesses to God; but for the sake of this argument, we will not consider it. Like some scientific theories, the creation theory has not been disproved, so is still viable. On the other hand, for the nonbeliever who believes in, shall we say, the Big Bang, which has no more been proven than the creation theory, he still has no material proof. Yet because there is no evidence WHICH HE BELIEVES with respect to the creation theory, he disregards it; yet he will still retain his belief in the Big Bang theory, which again, is still a theory with no more proof than the creation theory.

Theories such as The Big Bang hold no proof for believers because we realize that something or someone had to have started the Big Bang. (Did some huge blob of material suddenly come into existence and then explode? How? Still, where did the huge blob come from? Why did it come, for what reason? Why did it explode, or why did combustible material suddenly come into the world before it exploded? Who sent it, or What caused it?) There must be a cause for the effect. The creation theory resolves that. It is also the only explanation that has no holes in its logic. Remember, science cannot prove or disprove God, so the creation theory is, at the very least, AS plausible as the Big Bang Theory. And the Big Bang theory has yet to provide the cause of the big bang. Therefore, its theory has a hole in it right from the start. The “creation theory” provides that explanation. It is also the only explanation that has no holes in its logic. Some nonbelievers say, well, maybe the world always was, just as you believe that God always was. That is illogical. If one can accept that the world always was, then one can surely accept that God always was. In the same respect, if you can believe that an “anything” can create from nothing, then surely a “someone” (or a Being) can create from nothing. In fact, a Being is more plausible to be a creator than an “anything,” because a being can think, an “any THING” cannot.

Suppose you are right, and God does not exist. Scientifically speaking, in a material world of cause and effect, what CAUSED the Big Bang or the “anything” or whatever theory you ascribe to? On the other hand, suppose you are wrong and God DOES exist – how will scientists prove His existence?

So again I ask: What is YOUR perfect, 100% air-tight explanation for the world’s existence?

I used to think the Big Bang was the beginning of *this universe* until we discovered that the universe is speeding up instead of slowing down. I used to imagine universes expanding and contracting until the entire mass of the universe was contained in a particle smaller than anything even speculated about by physicists. And then, KAPOW!! Out it pops through the fabric of this set of dimensions into and another. And the process goes on forever.

Then, after the new data about the ever accelerating universe came along, I thought about the nature of energy, distance, and mass, and it occurred to me that because time is the grease that energy and mass slides on time must have substance. So, I think time is dark energy which is a hybrid of matter and energy. Dark energy is what makes up most of the universe and it's what propels energy and mass and I think someday we will find a way to manipulate it.

Perhaps, we will find a way to charge and accelerate particles of dark energy and speed time up. Maybe we'll have a dark particle propulsion machine that will allow us to worm our way across the void until we reach the end of time. Here we come, God!

[xexon]

Xexon, you have a thoery about God. It obviously is contrary to the Bible. So please don't take quotes from Jesus out of context and pretend that he supports whatever God you're talking about. People might actually believe that Jesus's teachings are somewhat in line with your theology, and his teachings are not. Please don't mislead people

On the contrary, I was raised as a southern baptist in Alabama.

It is not my intention to insult other people's beliefs, but understand, I like Jesus too. My road is a lot different than the one I started out with, and it is certainly far removed from what most people are familiar with in the west, but it was because I was able to move forward and beyond where I started, that I am able to offer a different point of view. I ask nobody to follow my path, only to listen, if they have an interest in doing so.

Jesus did know the path was an inward one, yes?



x

[Craig]

I make no distinction between God and creation and myself.

Its hard to explain the "oneness" of what I see to others who live in the world of duality. I don't blame others for their feeling of seperation from God, because it is what we are all brought up to believe. But at some point we need to look inside for God rather than up beyond the clouds somewhere.

Jesus tried to point out this direction, but he was not understood then either. "The kingdom of God is within". It is a terribly hard concept to grasp with the human mind. We can marvel at the stars, and the firminant that contains them, but it will do nothing to explain who we are or where we come from.

Do not fixate on shiny objects. You'll find your life has passed you by, and you've learned nothing, except about shiny objects.

x

Xexon,

It sounds as though your personal spiritual beliefs have been influenced by Eastern mysticism and religious traditions. Is this the case?

[xexon]

I found early in my childhood that I was somewhat different from other people in a spiritual sense. I loved going to church, but I always left with an empty stomach, spiritually speaking.

I had a habit of asking questions nobody in my church had a clue about how to answer. But I stayed with it though most of my early adulthood. The first time I was ever able to go to a larger town with a good library, I went straight to the religious section, and pretty much read everything I could find on world religions, God, the occult, etc. I cleaned out several libraries over the coming years. I was very much on fire to find the answers as to why I was different in my views of God.

One day, I came across some books printed in India. They were about the lives of the ancient yogis, and dealt with mysticism on a very deep level. I immersed myself in this path. It fit like a glove, and I've never looked back.

I don't believe any one religion or path is superior to another. I do believe that God will place you into the one you are best suited to travel according to your ability to understand it.

I give him thanks with each breath for giving me mine.



x

[Cedars]

It is amazing to me how people can scoff at Christians or others who believe in God, yet can proffer no airtight theory themselves that leave out the possibility of God. Science cannot tell you what the universe was made for. Science can only study material things. It cannot answer questions such as WHO made the matter and FOR WHAT were they made?

Our intellect questions, from time immemorial, WHERE DID WE COME FROM? WHY ARE WE HERE? Some may laugh at this question and not deem it important, but the question still remains unanswered for those who refuse to believe in God. They will grasp anything else as long as it does not involve God.

God is the explanation for EVERYTHING. He made us and all things of nothing. If it is God’s will that holds us in existence, then it is God’s will that is the law of our existence. To disobey that law is to sin. To sin cuts away our very support from God; but we will not cease to exist because God has promised that we will not cease to exist. Even death does no more than change the condition of our existence. Christians believe that EVERYONE’S spirit still exists even after death and that our (sanctified) bodies will reunite with our spirits at the Second Coming of Christ (it was Christ, the second person of the Trinity, who was the Word of God who brought order into the world at the beginning and then came into our material world in material form, as a human being – a divine person with two natures, one divine, one human – so that he may fix the disorder caused by man. It has been God’s plan from the beginning – and God does things in His own time).

I think a lot of people have trouble with this because belief in the existence of God frightens them, which is why many poke fun so they do not have to think seriously about this, and perhaps know they need to make changes in their life.

[Cedars]

Mike, for awhile much was being speculated about dolphin intelligence. Do you know if we ever got very far in communicating with them?

There are lots of sci fi stories about religious/spiritual intelligent alien races. Perhaps humans aren't the only ones created in God's image? I'm still trying to see reality through the Cedar post. Our spirit is part of God and immortal, it's part of our soul (or was it vice-versa) which can be destroyed? And mind and thinking are evidence of spirit? Hmmmm...

Xenon just posted in another thread that he believes in ghosts; we live on the bottom floor of a skyscraper with many invisible floors above us full of other beings. Maybe I'll figure this stuff out.

Our spirit was created by God, just as the angels (who are spirits) were created by God. Our spirits only exist because God holds them in existence; if He did otherwise, we would be annihilated --which He has promised He would not do (so in this respect our spirits are immortal). The human soul is the only soul on earth that is also a spirit (vegetables, for instance, do not have spirit). Yes, mind and thinking are evidence of spirit, and are an image of God.

[Cedars]

...I don't believe any one religion or path is superior to another. I do believe that God will place you into the one you are best suited to travel according to your ability to understand it. ...
x

I believe God will guide us to Truth if we but seek it. There are some truths in most religions, but it is the differences we need to heed. Not all religions can be Truth, because they all have some differences that negate beliefs in others. To believe all religions are Truth is to disbelieve that God IS Truth. God is a God of order, not disorder. Disorder is all religions being equal; it cannot be. God became man in order to restore order and to guide us to Truth, and He started His own Church so that man may know that Truth. I have never heard a better logic than the Christian (specifically Catholic) religion.

God will give us only as much information as we are WILLING to accept. The more we want to learn, the more He will teach us. Sadly, many nonCatholics (Protestants especially) are blind to the richness of the Catholic faith because they have been taught to despise the Church Christ instituted (some amazingly even deny it is Christian!). They would be amazed to discover that the Catholic Church of Rome was looked to as THE authority by the early Christians (such as Polycarp, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Irenaeus of Lyons) to determine who was in error and to declare what were heresies. Many Christians today cannot accept the authority of the Catholic Church which Christ instituted. They would rather accept their own authority (sola scriptura), which leads to many denominations and many religions, which equals division and disorder.

I cannot stress this enough. Lack of authority is key to understanding why the Protestant denominations keep dividing. As long as Protest-ants keep protesting, yet more and more denominations will occur (and the further they will distance themselves from Truth).

[playaazul]

I believe God will guide us to Truth if we but seek it. There are some truths in most religions, but it is the differences we need to heed. Not all religions can be Truth, because they all have some differences that negate beliefs in others. To believe all religions are Truth is to disbelieve that God IS Truth. God is a God of order, not disorder. Disorder is all religions being equal; it cannot be. God became man in order to restore order and to guide us to Truth, and He started His own Church so that man may know that Truth. I have never heard a better logic than the Christian (specifically Catholic) religion.

God will give us only as much information as we are WILLING to accept. The more we want to learn, the more He will teach us. Sadly, many nonCatholics (Protestants especially) are blind to the richness of the Catholic faith because they have been taught to despise the Church Christ instituted (some amazingly even deny it is Christian!). They would be amazed to discover that the Catholic Church of Rome was looked to as THE authority by the early Christians (such as Polycarp, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Irenaeus of Lyons) to determine who was in error and to declare what were heresies. Many Christians today cannot accept the authority of the Catholic Church which Christ instituted. They would rather accept their own authority (sola scriptura), which leads to many denominations and many religions, which equals division and disorder.

I cannot stress this enough. Lack of authority is key to understanding why the Protestant denominations keep dividing. As long as Protest-ants keep protesting, yet more and more denominations will occur (and the further they will distance themselves from Truth).

Was the Spanish Inquisition an error in Catholic thinking? There are other events I could name but that was first to come to mind.

[Cedars]

Ah, the Inquisition. Sooner or later this is always thrown in like a hah--got ya! The Inquisition was spread over six centuries and a half continent. To which period/place specifically do you refer to? Keep in mind, however, that the Inquisition was not always in control of Church authorities. In Spain, for instance, an Inquisition was established, and there it became a creature of the state and thus effectively out of the control of Church authorities. The Spanish Inquisition had the worst record. So merely hearing the word Inquisition does not necessarily mean run by Church authorities. "The Church has not been false to its commission. Individual Catholics, yes--it has always been that way, since the denials of Peter, and it will continue unto the end--but no degree of unsaintliness on the part of Catholics proves the Church to be other than what it claims to be, even though that unsaintliness puts grave obstacles in the path of people outside and inside the Church. ... If the Inquisition establishes the falsity of Catholicism, the witch trials establish the falsity of Protestantism."--Karl Keating

[mahayana]

I can't think of many places where Catholicism and Protestantism are clashing anymore ( maybe Ireland?); now, the world deals with Islamic hubris.

You make a good point, Cedars, about the role of the State in the Inquisition. Theocracy has some inherent potential for intolerance towards doubters and those with different faiths.

[Cedars]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but you might be surprised at the Protestant view of Catholicism. Although, as you say, Catholics and Protestants do not clash (certainly not physically), most Protestants are taught (knowingly or not) to dislike (disfavor?) the Catholic Church. This is unfortunate for them as it hinders them in their search for Truth, and unfortunate for those Catholics who are led astray by well-meaning Protestants.

With regard to the Muslim issue, what I cannot understand is why some Muslim leaders don't speak out against the Muslim terrorists and stop the insanity. I understand there is the fear factor, but surely not all Muslims are afraid.

[mahayana]

I'm quite interested in your views about this, Cedars. Perhaps others will forgive a departure from discussing souls.

I assume you're familiar with the February 1998 Fatwas (theological decrees) supporting the World Islamic Front, and have read Repentance (traditional chapter 9 of the Quran) which discusses the individual duty to jihad. Many deny that this is a holy war, yet it certainly involves the Authority of the Church (Islam, in this case).

Would you speak out against the Church, if its teachings called for war in defense of Christianity?

[Cedars]

Would I speak out against the Catholic Church if it's teachings called for war in defense of Christianity? One thing you have to realize about the Catholic Church is that a "teaching" by any priest or bishop, or even the pope, is not valid authority unless it is held by the teaching magisterium to be true. In other words, if some priests spoke out and said, fight! That is not valid teaching authority. Quite honestly, I cannot see the teaching magisterium of the Catholic Church, nor the current pope, calling for war. Catholic DOCTRINE does not call for war. Catholic priests and bishops theoretically could, I suppose (as was in the Crusades), but it still was not, and is not, Catholic doctrine. Such as what you're asking would, in my understanding of Catholic doctrine, never happen. However, if I were wrong and it would happen, depending upon the circumstances, I would SERIOUSLY have to question my faith in the Catholic Church.

[Cedars]

Okay, just to clarify again, mahayana, Catholic doctrine DOES NOT CALL for war. Here is what I could find (Catechism of the Catholic Church) if you are interested:


Avoiding war

2307 The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.105

2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.

However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."106

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

- there must be serious prospects of success;

- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.107

2311 Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.108

2312 The Church and human reason both assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflict. "The mere fact that war has regrettably broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties."109

2313 Non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely.

Actions deliberately contrary to the law of nations and to its universal principles are crimes, as are the orders that command such actions. Blind obedience does not suffice to excuse those who carry them out. Thus the extermination of a people, nation, or ethnic minority must be condemned as a mortal sin. One is morally bound to resist orders that command genocide.

2314 "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."110 A danger of modern warfare is that it provides the opportunity to those who possess modern scientific weapons especially atomic, biological, or chemical weapons - to commit such crimes.

2315 The accumulation of arms strikes many as a paradoxically suitable way of deterring potential adversaries from war. They see it as the most effective means of ensuring peace among nations. This method of deterrence gives rise to strong moral reservations. The arms race does not ensure peace. Far from eliminating the causes of war, it risks aggravating them. Spending enormous sums to produce ever new types of weapons impedes efforts to aid needy populations;111 it thwarts the development of peoples. Over-armament multiplies reasons for conflict and increases the danger of escalation.

2316 The production and the sale of arms affect the common good of nations and of the international community. Hence public authorities have the right and duty to regulate them. The short-term pursuit of private or collective interests cannot legitimate undertakings that promote violence and conflict among nations and compromise the international juridical order.

2317 Injustice, excessive economic or social inequalities, envy, distrust, and pride raging among men and nations constantly threaten peace and cause wars. Everything done to overcome these disorders contributes to building up peace and avoiding war:


Insofar as men are sinners, the threat of war hangs over them and will so continue until Christ comes again; but insofar as they can vanquish sin by coming together in charity, violence itself will be vanquished and these words will be fulfilled: "they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."112

[mahayana]

Ah, well...

To me, "just war" is just war. This one may have started with the invasion of Kuwait, or the "Crimes and Sins of the Zionist/Crusader Alliance...a clear declaration of war on Allah, His Messenger, and Muslims." Or it could be Defending our Way of Life against Terrorists. Or Henry Ford's invention? Failed Foreign Policy? Maybe this really will teach us all a lesson, but what, I don't know.

[Cedars]

You have a good point, mahayana. If everyone thought to avoid war, there would be no war. Unfortunately, everyone does not think this way. If everyone followed Catholic doctrine, there would be no war because Catholic doctrine teaches us to be peaceful, period. However, it does not ignore that it is the duty of governments to protect and defend its citizens in certain circumstances (stated above). God will judge our nations' leaders and their motives. Even in the O.T. this was true. The N.T. complements, or completes, the O.T.; it in no way negates it. If Jesus had meant the O.T. to have been null and void upon His coming, He would have said so. He did not. In fact, He quoted from it quite often. His message to all of us is to love one another as you would your own family, as you would yourself. IF people would follow this, there would be no wars (which was what Catholic doctrine points out). Jesus asked all of us individually to love. He did not tell nations or the leaders of nations to love for us, or to willfully subject their people to harm. A ruler who tells his people that they must subject themselves to terror and violence may violate his own authority as ruler and protector of the country. Martyrdom is an individual thing, for an individual to decide. It is not martyrdom for a nation's leader to decide such for his people; that is murder. That is why leaders must be held accountable.

[Mercellus]

There are many here who 'feel' like there is, how should I say it, another part to us. That there is some sort of 'soul' or 'spirit.' This opens up some new questions and ideas that I have noticed being posted in this forum. If I do have a spirit, where did that spirit come from? I'm living now, is my spirit in my body? Is my body a house for my spirit? Why am I here? Is there a purpose in this life? What happens at death? Is it the end? Does life continue after the grave? Will I ever see my loved ones again? Is there a resurrection? How can I know this is true? I want to believe, but I just can't seem to get the proof that I need.

There are answers to these questions. We have the scriptures. We have the testimonies of ancient and modern prophets. In all actuallity, all things testify that there is a Supreme Creator. We have prayer. We can ask, and it will be given us. It may not be over night or instantly, then again it might be, too. We all have faith, we just need to get up the courage to take a step forward.

"But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is rigth.

"But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have stupor of though that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong..." (Doctrine and Covenants 9:8-9)

"Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?" (Doctrine and Covenants 6:23)

Ok, often in the scriptures the word 'soul' and 'spirit' are used interchangebly. This is just fine; there is nothing wrong with that. However, I would like to define what I believe a 'spirit' is and what I believe a 'soul' is.

God is our Father. We often refer to Him as our Heavenly Father. He is the Father of our spirits; we are His children. We lived with Him in a pre-mortal realm as spirits. God knows each and every one of us personally, just as a father and mother know their children each personally. "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5) There was something else that we noticed while dwelling in the presence of God that we longed for. He had a perfect, immortal body; we didn't. We were still spirits. Our Heavenly Father wanted us to be like Him. So, a world was created, and Adam and Eve were first placed in the Garden of Eden. We know that, because of the Fall, they were cast out of the Garden of Eden and were mortals, capable of feeling both pain and joy; life and death. Adam and Eve were given a commandment to multiply and replenish the earth (this happened in the Garden of Eden, not after they were cast out). By procreating, Adam and Eve were able to create a physical body in which a spirit child could leave the presence of the Father and gain a body. This is what a soul is -- the spirit and the body as one. "And the spirit and the body are the soul of man." (Doctrine and Covenants 88:15)

Now, we go through this life growing physically and spiritually. Are bodies grow from infancy to adulthood. We contine to develop our spirits by the choices we make in this life. That's a choice we make. You can look around you and you can notice a difference in people because of the choices they make.

Now, eventually, this mortal body will die. The body "gives up the ghost (spirit)." Remember, when Christ was hanging on the cross, He said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." (Luke 23:46) Christ's body remained on the cross until it was taken down and buried in the sepluchre. While there for three days, what was Christ's spirit doing? That is another topic, but here are some verses that may help with that: 1 Peter 3:18-19, 1 Peter 4:6, and Doctrine and Covenants section 138 (this can be found by going to www.lds.org) On the third day, Christ was resurrected. His spirit and body were reunited in a perfect immortal form. He walked, talked and ate with the disciples after His resurrection.

When we die, our bodies and spirits will be separated for a time. But, we too will be resurrected and our spirits and bodies will be reunited in a perfect and immortal form.

I know that we are each distinct souls. We are spirit children of our Heavenly Father. He loves us. Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ sin and death have been overcome. Sin by faith, repentance, baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost and forgiveness through Jesus Christ. Death has been overcome by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" (1 Corinthians 15:54-55)

For more information on this and other issues, please visit www.lds.org or www.mormon.org

[Rolling Thunder]

what about this?


http://www.irr.org/mit/Are-Mormon-Temples-Christian.html

[Mercellus]

Rolling Thunder,

This is not exactly to be the thread on which we discuss temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, I will give a brief explanation here.

Let's do talk about the New Testament and ordinances performed in the temple. First, baptism for the dead. Paul, in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, talks about the Atonement of Christ, His resurrection and overcoming death. Now, read verse 29: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

There are millions of God's children who have, are, or will live on this earth who will not get a chance to hear the word of God during this life. So, will God just say to them, "Sorry, you weren't baptized. Well, that's too bad." Hhhhmmmm....not a very fair God, huh? Well, God is fair. Read 1 Peter 3:18-19 and 1 Peter 4:6 which talks about the Gospel being preached unto the spirits in prison. So, seeing as how God will give everyone a fair chance, those already being dead having departed this mortal life, will need somebody to be baptized for them. This is a vicarious work, or done by proxy. It is hard for people to understand this, but it is how God works. Christ's Atonement was a vicarious work. He suffered and bought the price for the sins of ALL of us. However, if we chose not to apply the Atonement in our lives, than that is a choice we make. Same with baptisms for the dead. We are baptized for them, but if they chose not to accept it, that is their choice.

Now, on the matter of marriage. In the article it mentioned that these ordinances are 'secret'. Sacred is the correct word. If you hold something sacred, then it is personal for you and does not need to be discussed with others. Now, it is true that The Bible is not as clear on the matter of eternal marriage as many would hope, but the beliefs of the LDS Church on this matter do have explanations in The Bible. Marriage is very important to the Lord, otherwise He nor His apostles would have spoken so much on it. I will share a couple of verses here.

"Nevertheless neither is the man withouth the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord." (1 Corinthians 11:11)

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" (Ephesians 5:25)

Matthew 19 has some information on marriage as well. "For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." The Pharisees then asked why Moses allowed a "writing of divorcement." Christ answered, "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so." (Matthew 19:5-9)

These ordinances existed in the temples. They are a part of the Gospel.

[Rolling Thunder]

Maybe I should get into all the folklore about souls and spirits; do any of you believe in or have personal experiences with good spirits (like angels, fairies, caring or instructive voices from the other side) or evil spirits (angry ghosts, things flying around the room, cold feelings of dread at certain spots, etc)? I've heard that most americans believe in angels (Touched By An Angel was a TV hit), Hollywood draws heavilly on Devil stories (soul stealing Angel Heart, Buffy, countless horror tales). What do you think of these?

Are you superstitious, psychic, fearful of eternal punishment?

Yes I have had an experience with angels... My wife and I were praying together one night about 6 years ago when we lived in Lewisville, north of Dallas.. Specifically for protection. We were both laying in bed and I opened my eyes and sat bolt upright in bed. My face must have showed absolute fascination because it scared my wife and she asked what are you freaking out over????? I said with tears streaming down my face...cant you see them? She said no, what are you talking about? We had a large master bedroom at the house we were leasing at the time..and standing shoulder to shoulder were the largest beings I have ever seen. They looked like roman soldiers with shields and swords and spears. All of them glowed with a golden color. They were all male and had absolutely magnificent bodies. They were very muscular but not grotesquely so. They were chisled but not overbuilt like arnold. The strangest thing was we had tall ceilings in that house and I could only see them from the neck down. their heads were all in the ceiling. But I saw them and it must've lasted about 10 minutes or so...they were covering every square inch of all four walls in our room..I can still see it as if it happened last night..Why I couldn't see their heads or why they were not revealed to my wife, I don't know...But I do know that it was God's tangible answer to me letting me know we were protected... I have to also say that the was the best nights sleep we had ever had...I have never felt peace like I did that night.

[mahayana]

Thanks for sharing that, RT. I'm curious about what you were praying to be protected from...was it home invaders, bill collectors, some person that threatened you? The Devil? Were you on any kind of medication or drug, are you convinced this wasn't a hallucination or dream? Did they speak, have you ever heard a message from God, Jesus, angels?

[Redratio1]

Yes I have had an experience with angels...

There are 3 types of crazy in this world:

1. Otherwise sane persons who have made themselves delusional by believing in a reality that does not exist.

2. Mentally ill persons who have an altered view on the world, but otherwise know they are mentally ill and prone to delusions.

3. Mentally ill persons who are actaully psychotic and believe in their altered view on the world, and are fully delusional.

Categories #1 and #3 are pretty much the same, except that #1 is accepted, honored, and encouraged whereas #3 requires hospitalization and medication.

If you think God has some how protected you because of your constant jabbing through prayers, then great! I'd say though that you have completed your transformation into a fully delusional persona.

I find is hard to believe and compassionate "God" would communicate with you, considering you have such malice and lack of compassion for fellow humans, especially with AIDS. I wonder what other darknesses lie in your heart?

[Rolling Thunder]

Thanks for sharing that, RT. I'm curious about what you were praying to be protected from...was it home invaders, bill collectors, some person that threatened you? The Devil? Were you on any kind of medication or drug, are you convinced this wasn't a hallucination or dream? Did they speak, have you ever heard a message from God, Jesus, angels?

I personally believe that there is a spiritual realm that is all around us. I believe that in this realm there is constant warring going on between good (Gods Angels) and evil ( satan and his demons) I was praying at the time that God would protect us. Protect our home, our finances, our children, our jobs etc etc etc. The Bible says that the devil prowls about seeking whom he can steal ,kill and destroy. I was no threat to the devil at all before I became a Christian, but now however I am a threat and continue to be one to this day.

to answer your other questions, no I was not on any medications or drugs. Yes I am convinced this was NOT any type of hallucination or dream. I beleive that God allowed me a glimpse into the spiritual realm to assure us of His protection.

I know several friends that have had similar experiences. I can relate another and some people I know will say it was just luck or chance.
We had gone to the theater to see a movie and the many, many times we had been to this place before we would always exit the front exit onto the service road to I-35. As we left the theater there were many teenagers that left as well. I distincly heard in my spirit sitting in line to take the front exit..."not this way"...I'm thinking to myself...what??? then I heard it again. " not this way". I said to myself ok and turned out of line and took the back exit and circled around south and then back north onto the same service road and we looked in disbelief as there were three or four cars piled up ,smoking and teenagers running around screaming. Very bad accident. from the time we turned around and circled back could not have been more that a few minutes...so was it luck...not to me.. It was the voice of God in my spirit that saved us being in that wreck.

There are many accounts of Christians that worked in the twin towers and on 9/11 heard in thier spirits..."not today" in other words don't go to work.. crazy as it may seem, God will warn us to things to protect us..

So yes I have heard messages from God. Every day I pray before leaving to go to work. I am self employed and have a flexible schedule. I spend time with God in the morning and ask Him what he would have me do today. I also ask Him the best way to get things done in my schedule and he tells me. Do I hear an audible voice? no. and its kinda hard to explain but I hear Him speak into my spirit. I am not going to sit hear and say I do it every day without fail... I don't... I should but I dont. The days I do though... I have peace and the day goes by smoothly. My wife can literally look at me when I get home and she can tell if I prayed that morning.. See this is excatly what i am talking about as I have in many other posts about having a relationship with the Father. It's about a relationship...NOT religion. :)

[Rolling Thunder]

There are 3 types of crazy in this world:

1. Otherwise sane persons who have made themselves delusional by believing in a reality that does not exist.

2. Mentally ill persons who have an altered view on the world, but otherwise know they are mentally ill and prone to delusions.

3. Mentally ill persons who are actaully psychotic and believe in their altered view on the world, and are fully delusional.

Categories #1 and #3 are pretty much the same, except that #1 is accepted, honored, and encouraged whereas #3 requires hospitalization and medication.

If you think God has some how protected you because of your constant jabbing through prayers, then great! I'd say though that you have completed your transformation into a fully delusional persona.

I find is hard to believe and compassionate "God" would communicate with you, considering you have such malice and lack of compassion for fellow humans, especially with AIDS. I wonder what other darknesses lie in your heart?


There you go putting words into my posts again red...lol. You THINK what you want..I KNOW what is real.. and I know the experiences I have had...I have never claimed to be perfect nor will I ever... God knows this better than you, however He loves me unconditionally which is something you are incapable of grasping, and he will use life and circumstances and faith to mold me into HIs image...

and you talk about malice...? thats like the pot calling the kettle black in regards to you and your hateful anti-CHristian posts here..... :sorry:

Dont take it wrong though red....you simply show me the other side of things and have gotten me to look a little differently about things...None of it has changed anything I believe though.. :D

[Redratio1]

Actually I love Christians. When they ACTUALLY practice Christ's teachings. Otherwise when they preach religion without HIS teachings they are nothing more than idolators of an image of Christ through the brainwashing of organized religion.

Christ's teachings are probably some of the most profound religious philosophy. Up there with Buddha's.

How people through history and today have transformed his teachings into a an abomination of organized religious demagoguery is a slap in his face.

[Patriot]

For more information on this and other issues, please visit www.lds.org or www.mormon.org

Welcome, Mercellus!

[eugene40]

There you go putting words into my posts again red...lol. You THINK what you want..I KNOW what is real.. and I know the experiences I have had...I have never claimed to be perfect nor will I ever... God knows this better than you, however He loves me unconditionally which is something you are incapable of grasping, and he will use life and circumstances and faith to mold me into HIs image...

and you talk about malice...? thats like the pot calling the kettle black in regards to you and your hateful anti-CHristian posts here..... :sorry:

Dont take it wrong though red....you simply show me the other side of things and have gotten me to look a little differently about things...None of it has changed anything I believe though.. :D

But see rolling,,,, we are the ones that don't believe in jesus and the like so we are "evil",,, "hate filled", "Godless" people,, emisaries of the devil.... so we get to talk hatefully about christians.... Where see you have to forgive us and understand that we are flawed,, and accept that "God" will deal with us when we die.... And how the hell do you know red is incapable of understanding unconditional love.... he may just have children,,, that to me would say that he would understand unconditional love... But to say that he wouldn't understand unconditional love no more hate filled then any of his posts.... And to be honest out of all of the posts I have read from red... I have never seen anything that would constitute as being hate... he simply asks questions and when you don't give even a remotely adequate answer,,, he gets frustrated... see frustration is a little different then hate.... Now me I have said hate and some of my posts exude it..... but that is me,,, not red,,, red is a little bit better then I am.... Now you on the other hand,,, I have seen more hate in some of your posts then any of reds.... maybe it is some kind of tranferance thing from some of your failings to him.....

[eugene40]

We had gone to the theater to see a movie and the many, many times we had been to this place before we would always exit the front exit onto the service road to I-35. As we left the theater there were many teenagers that left as well. I distincly heard in my spirit sitting in line to take the front exit..."not this way"...I'm thinking to myself...what??? then I heard it again. " not this way". I said to myself ok and turned out of line and took the back exit and circled around south and then back north onto the same service road and we looked in disbelief as there were three or four cars piled up ,smoking and teenagers running around screaming. Very bad accident. from the time we turned around and circled back could not have been more that a few minutes...so was it luck...not to me.. It was the voice of God in my spirit that saved us being in that wreck.

There are many accounts of Christians that worked in the twin towers and on 9/11 heard in thier spirits..."not today" in other words don't go to work.. crazy as it may seem, God will warn us to things to protect us..

Damn I just call those instincts.... I can't even begin to count the times where I just got a bad feeling (not voices,,, voices are a whole other level of psychology) i like to call it my spidey sense and do something about it... Or maybe we do the same thing,,,, I observe people,,, everyday,,, I pick out the subtle things that mostly the subconscious can only do... I see a bunch of teens acting the fool,,, there is a major way out of a place and I bet 10 to 1 they are going to go that way to... and if there is another way I go that way...
One time,,, I was in a restaraunt with a date,,, I see this guy come in,, he just didn't look right... I saw this recognized it... looked at him took a good look,, realized he was about to do bad things... we leave,,,, and he ends up shooting up the place in a robbery.. was it a voice from above,,, no... it was me noticing the guy and noticing that he was about to do something bad....
But see I say it is from me,,, because just the way I am,,, like in another post,,, when I told you i have survived many a thing... Not deity spoke to me... it was just me...
Now my question is,,,, do you think yourself so powerless that everything that you do does not come from yourself that it comes from something up above? Do you have absolutely no control of your life? Is it weird,,, I mean are you like some spiritual video game character that goes wherever something makes you go? Does it interfere with your free will? I would think that it does on some level?
Have you ever considered that it might be more likely that you have some sort of precognition? that has at least been studied scientifically.
Have you ever considered that people go along and describe things like others to fit in?
Do you just not have that high of an opinion of yourself that anything good that has happened in your life or choice that you made in your life was based solely on your and not some higher power?
I am trying to understand,,, but me I am far to confident in my skills that I have worked damn hard to obtain to hand the credit over to some deity... but hey that is just me....

[jamesrage]

Oh great this has turned into a religious bashing thread.Can I too make fun fun of others views and call them nutjobs too or refer to them as nutjobs?

[eugene40]

Oh great this has turned into a religious bashing thread.Can I too make fun fun of others views and call them nutjobs too or refer to them as nutjobs?

Sure,,, nutjobs ,,, wackos,,,, crazies,,, you can make fun of anyone you want... it is a free country.... I try not to make fun of others views.... it is just that everyone I have dealt with that hears voices I dropped them off at the state mental hospital but that is just me.. :D

[mahayana]

What I wanted to do here is create a safe place to share actual experiences, to find out why almost everyone believes in souls and spirits. References to mental illness may serve the opposite...

There are religious and non-religious interpretations for "feelings", instincts, street smarts, precognition, luck, fate (predestination?), etc. CP made a case for his "invisible friend" in another thread, many believe in a pantheon of angels, demons, saints...no one has mentioned sprites, faeries, leprechauns, trolls and unicorns (yet).

Anyway, there is some risk in telling why you hold anything to be true. But hearing what happened, from the witness, is more powerful than theology, philosophy, mythology, rumors. I'd like to learn more, stay open to being convinced.

[Redratio1]

References to mental illness may serve the opposite...


WEll it is what I believe. I have observed that people are so easily deluded, easily misled, and mentally lazy that I have become rather skeptical to their claim. I have often seen and hear people claim outrageous lies in order to seem more pious outwardly to others or to self delude themselves inwardly.

Remember the story of Virgin Mary being sighted in an office window's condensation pattern? See attachment.

Lets not for get the Heaven's Gate Cult where men cut their nuts off to follow a nut, then mass suicided.

Or Muslims still believing in a pagan artifact, when it is a mere meteorite.

etc., etc.,....

There are 3 possiblities to the believing other's strange claims:

1. They are all true.

2. Only a select few are true.

3. None of them are true.

If #1 is true, then I must be deluded, and I can now think myself into having wings so I can fly around the world.

If #2 is true then we have the situation where on group can claim to have an objective and true spiritual connection over all other claims.

If #3 is true then we have an objective reality in which the rules for everyone is grounded in the laws of nature.

I would be willing to believe in #2 if people who make such claims did not always end up falling into category #1.
The fact is people like to feel special with their personal connection to some higher being, and love to make believe that they live in a magical world with bleeding statues and the like. The reality is we are all equals and subject ot the laws of this universe. It is nitty-gritty, and harsh, but there it is.

Hope and faith can be great things, but not at the level of self-delusion.

[Redratio1]

And how the hell do you know red is incapable of understanding unconditional love.... he may just have children,,, that to me would say that he would understand unconditional love... But to say that he wouldn't understand unconditional love no more hate filled then any of his posts.... And to be honest out of all of the posts I have read from red... I have never seen anything that would constitute as being hate... he simply asks questions and when you don't give even a remotely adequate answer,,, he gets frustrated... see frustration is a little different then hate.... Now me I have said hate and some of my posts exude it..... but that is me,,, not red,,, red is a little bit better then I am.... Now you on the other hand,,, I have seen more hate in some of your posts then any of reds.... maybe it is some kind of tranferance thing from some of your failings to him.....

I.....feel........deconstructed........

But thanks eugene. :D I actually am an evil hell spawn come to Earth to torment Christians! I mean really look at my avatar! Bwwwwwwwahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

[eugene40]

Anyway, there is some risk in telling why you hold anything to be true. But hearing what happened, from the witness, is more powerful than theology, philosophy, mythology, rumors. I'd like to learn more, stay open to being convinced.

Actually,,, having the opportunity to interview "witnesses" almost on a daily basis... You learn two things.... "witnesses" are seldom right,, unless they are trained to be a witness. You can take three different people from three different walks of life all after seeing the same exact thing,, and you will get three diffferent stories... Why because people bring there own life into what they see... they have lets say a filter on their eyes... they pick out the things that are important to them.... it is that simple.... I don't trust witnesses,, singularly you will never ever get a complete accurate picture of what transpired. It might not exactly be delusional,,, only in the loosest sense... people sometimes see what they want to see... it is that simple. We would like to learn more as well,,, but in order to do that you have to have different explanations of how things can happen.. And you should never stay open if you want to be convinced,,, because you are already leaving the door open for someone to convince you very easily... the only way to ever be truly convinced is to first be a skeptic... then be proven wrong....

[eugene40]

I.....feel........deconstructed........

But thanks eugene. :D I actually am an evil hell spawn come to Earth to torment Christians! I mean really look at my avatar! Bwwwwwwwahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

You are too!!! I though I was the only one.... did you get the weekly email? How about the secret handshake? The membership card? decoder ring? Imprint of the devils pitch fork on your arse... :D

[julierep]

Actually I love Christians. When they ACTUALLY practice Christ's teachings. Otherwise when they preach religion without HIS teachings they are nothing more than idolators of an image of Christ through the brainwashing of organized religion.

Christ's teachings are probably some of the most profound religious philosophy. Up there with Buddha's.

How people through history and today have transformed his teachings into a an abomination of organized religious demagoguery is a slap in his face.


Ok, so if someone practices his teachings, which included that he was the only way to the kingdom of heaven, would you still love these christians, since they practice EVERYTHING Jesus tells us to do?

[mahayana]

I suppose it's a matter of interpretation. When Je