Newton's Orrery

[TheGreyGhost]

That a maker is required for anything that is made is a lesson Sir Isaac Newton was able to teach forcefully to an atheist-scientist friend of his. Sir Isaac had an accomplished artisan fashion for him a small scale model of our solar system which was to be put in a room in Newton’s home when completed. The assignment was finished and installed on a large table. The workman had done a very commendable job, simulating not only the various sizes of the planets and their relative proximities, but also so constructing the model that everything rotated and orbited when a crank was turned. It was an interesting, even fascinating work, as you can image, particularly to anyone schooled in the sciences.

Newton’s atheist-scientist friend came by for a visit. Seeing the model, he was naturally intrigued, and proceeded to examine it with undisguised admiration for the high quality of the workmanship. ‘My! What an exquisite thing this is!’ he exclaimed. ‘Who made it?’ Paying little attention to him, Sir Isaac answered, ‘Nobody.’

Stopping his inspection, the visitor turned and said: ‘Evidently you did not understand my question. I asked who made this. Newton, enjoying himself immensely no doubt, replied in a still more serious tone. ‘Nobody. What you see just happened to assume the form it now has.’ ‘You must think I am a fool!’ the visitor retorted heatedly, ‘Of course somebody made it, and he is a genius, and I would like to know who he is.’

Newton then spoke to his friend in a polite yet firm way: ‘This thing is but a puny imitation of a much grander system whose laws you know, and I am not able to convince you that this mere toy is without a designer and maker; yet you profess to believe that the great original from which the design is taken has come into being without either designer or maker! Now tell me by what sort of reasoning do you reach such an incongruous conclusion?’

[2ruballa]

Now how sagacious is that.

[cpwill]

:lol: good ole newton.

[twoone]

My response would have been, then who made god?

[MikeD4o7]

Cute story, but flawed analogy. Even most christians recognize that our universe as it is could have been completely created by natural processes after the Big Bang... Christians nowadays just give God credit for the Big Bang to wrap things up. However there are alternate explanations that are just as plausible for the cause of the Big Bang, we just don't have enough evidence to say what exactly caused it one way or another.

[green lantern]

i bet this stopped his friend in his tracks.

[CyNix]

Even most christians recognize that our universe as it is could have been completely created by natural processes after the Big Bang... Christians nowadays just give God credit for the Big Bang to wrap things up.I know that some do, but the Christians that I communicate with (Charismatic/non-denominational, evangelical) believe strongly in a young-earth creation; 8,000-12,000 yo earth. The huge majority of the fastest growing arm of Christianity laughs at the Big-Bang theory.

[Diogenes]

Posted by MikeD4o7
Even most christians recognize that our universe as it is could have been completely created by natural processes after the Big Bang...Just as Newton's Orrery was made by "natural processes."

[MikeD4o7]

Just as Newton's Orrery was made by "natural processes."

???

Polymerization, myosis, etc etc are things that happen in this universe without any effort put in by any entity... they simply follow the laws of nature. Building an Orrery is very different. The analogy simply doesn't fit.

[Diogenes]

Building an Orrery is very different. The analogy simply doesn't fit.Sure the analogy fits. If I understand your post correctly, you are saying that when you understand how something is created then there must be a creator. When you don't understand how something is created, you ascribe it to "natural processes" and tend to look down on those who believe in a Creator. Am I wrong?

[MikeD4o7]

Sure the analogy fits. If I understand your post correctly, you are saying that when you understand how something is created then there must be a creator. When you don't understand how something is created, you ascribe it to "natural processes" and tend to look down on those who believe in a Creator. Am I wrong?


I think we're talking about two different things possibly, because that's not what i was trying to say at all.

Lets say a person looks at a mouse and says "this thing is so intricate and complicated, yet structured... it must have a creator". I am saying that when we do understand how natural processes could have led to that mouse, then we don't need to give credit to a creator. We understand the basic nature of DNA replication and mutation that could very easily lead to the emergence of something like that mouse.

When I don't understand or have any reasonable idea how something happened, then I leave it as a question mark... I don't put "God" there simply because I want an answer. There are several theories that fall well within the realm of math and science for the start of the Big Bang, but we don't have nearly enough evidence to verify any of them with any degree of certainty... so when asked "how did the Big Bang happen?" I'll be content for now to say "I don't know". However I certainly don't see any reason to bring any supernatural power or creator deity into the explanation... there's no evidence to warrant it.

[Diogenes]

OK. There is certainly no scientific proof of God, and if you are willing to leave it at "I don't know" that's fine. But we humans seem to have an intense curiosity built into us, a "need to know" that demands explanations and keeps us awake at nights wondering why and how. Ascribing the unknown to God is one way of finding closure; other ways are to believe in shaky theories that cannot be proved, like evolution and global warming. However a person wants to bring closure to the issue is fine with me, provided they don't harass me for not believing the same theories.

[cpwill]

alright, then how do you handle the people who claim a very real, close, personal relationship with God; who talk to God, etc.?

[MikeD4o7]

alright, then how do you handle the people who claim a very real, close, personal relationship with God; who talk to God, etc.?


The same way I would explain those that have memories of their alien abductions, or have conversations with the dead through ouiji boards, or the people that believe their ailments were really healed when benny hinn pushed them over... I believe that they delude themselves into believing it. Of course, there are probably also a couple schizophrenics that really do hear a voice, but the vast majority I believe just willingly delude themselves.

This is, to me.. the rational explanation. There are too many logical problems and pitfalls with the Judeo/Christian God for me to be able to take somebody's word for it. Combine that with the fact that the emergence of every religion can be explained anthropologically, and I need extraordinary evidence to believe any extraordinary claims such as the ones concerning God. There is no such evidence that I'm aware of, and I'm certainly lacking any personal experiences that would lead me to believe God exists.

[cpwill]

you're talking about pretty big numbers all having the same delusion, here; and you still haven't answered how this delusion can do things we are incapable of ourselves.

[MikeD4o7]

you're talking about pretty big numbers all having the same delusion, here; and you still haven't answered how this delusion can do things we are incapable of ourselves.

The numbers don't really matter, they all have the same source... It's not like if you had various people in isolated tribes all having the same visions and whatnot... they doctrinization is the same or similar throughout the world.

I'm not quite sure what you mean about it doing things we're not capable of doing ourselves.

[CyNix]

I believe that they delude themselves into believing it. Of course, there are probably also a couple schizophrenics that really do hear a voice, but the vast majority I believe just willingly delude themselves.How does a delusion rid my friend of a six inch cancerous tumor in his stomach? Even the doctors could not do that... they said so themselves.

[Diogenes]

Posted by cpwill
alright, then how do you handle the people who claim a very real, close, personal relationship with God; who talk to God, etc.?If that was addressed to me, my reply is "What's to handle?" The close personal relationships of other people are not for me to critique.

Let me try to explain where I'm coming from. A few years ago a long-time very close friend of mine invited me to a Native American sun dance. I'd never been to one before, and didn't know what to expect, but I found that for the participants it was a very intense spiritual experience that I respected immensely even though I don't share the beliefs. Many, perhaps most, of the participants were recovering addicts or alcoholics who found solace in the ritual, along with the strength to stay straight.

Thinking it over on the long drive home, I came to the conclusion that anyone's relationship with God is indeed personal, and as unique to the individual person as that person is unique among the rest of the world population. I also concluded that the relationship must necessarily be personal and private, because our thought patterns and language do adequately convey the nature of that relationship.

If you have a belief system that brings you inner peace, then go for it with my blessing and respect. I ask only that you don't try to force it on me, because I am different from you and I have my own road to follow.

[MikeD4o7]

How does a delusion rid my friend of a six inch cancerous tumor in his stomach? Even the doctors could not do that... they said so themselves.


Don't know... but I'd be willing to bet there's some natural explanation for it, we just don't know the answer. If it was God that cured your friend, then it begs the question: why would God cure your friend and allow so many others to suffer from the same thing?

[ranger]

If it was God that cured your friend, then it begs the question: why would God cure your friend and allow so many others to suffer from the same thing?You are asking a tough question that I cannot answer. I can give you my own experience and understanding. In 1973, at the age of 20, in a land far far away I received massive injuries to my rib cage, lungs, spine and knees. This ruined my hopes of a career as a military officer in the tradition of my family. I have no idea how my life would have turned out without the injuries. I know the path I followed as a result of them allowed me to meet my wife, have 8 children and 1 grand baby (so far). I would not change my life for anyone elses because of the joy I have in my life. I pray to God every day and I believe he has blessed me far beyond what I deserve.

I don't know why God allowed me to get busted up, I don't know why he allowed 3 of my buddies to die saving me, I do not know why God allows us anything. I do know that he took what was the most devastating experience I can imagine and turned it into the best experience I can imagine.

I thank God every day for my life. I believe God has good things for all of us, sometimes it may take a bigger club to get us to turn in the direction he wants us to go. God has a miraculous way of turning bad things into good

[green lantern]

You are asking a tough question that I cannot answer. I can give you my own experience and understanding. In 1973, at the age of 20, in a land far far away I received massive injuries to my rib cage, lungs, spine and knees. This ruined my hopes of a career as a military officer in the tradition of my family. I have no idea how my life would have turned out without the injuries. I know the path I followed as a result of them allowed me to meet my wife, have 8 children and 1 grand baby (so far). I would not change my life for anyone elses because of the joy I have in my life. I pray to God every day and I believe he has blessed me far beyond what I deserve.

I don't know why God allowed me to get busted up, I don't know why he allowed 3 of my buddies to die saving me, I do not know why God allows us anything. I do know that he took what was the most devastating experience I can imagine and turned it into the best experience I can imagine.

I thank God every day for my life. I believe God has good things for all of us, sometimes it may take a bigger club to get us to turn in the direction he wants us to go. God has a miraculous way of turning bad things into good
:beer: :rocking: :thumbsup: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Diogenes]

I echo green lantern!

[MikeD4o7]

You are asking a tough question that I cannot answer. I can give you my own experience and understanding. In 1973, at the age of 20, in a land far far away I received massive injuries to my rib cage, lungs, spine and knees. This ruined my hopes of a career as a military officer in the tradition of my family. I have no idea how my life would have turned out without the injuries. I know the path I followed as a result of them allowed me to meet my wife, have 8 children and 1 grand baby (so far). I would not change my life for anyone elses because of the joy I have in my life. I pray to God every day and I believe he has blessed me far beyond what I deserve.

I don't know why God allowed me to get busted up, I don't know why he allowed 3 of my buddies to die saving me, I do not know why God allows us anything. I do know that he took what was the most devastating experience I can imagine and turned it into the best experience I can imagine.

I thank God every day for my life. I believe God has good things for all of us, sometimes it may take a bigger club to get us to turn in the direction he wants us to go. God has a miraculous way of turning bad things into good


I really am glad that your life turned out so well for you... I just still wouldn't attribute it to any divine forces, but to your attitude to overcome your hardships and your ability to recognize and take good opportunities.

[CyNix]

Don't know... but I'd be willing to bet there's some natural explanation for it, we just don't know the answer.If it is natural for a cancerous tumor to disapear on its own the cause is far, far past current human understanding. And due to statistical probability, even if it was natural, it is a miracle.

why would God cure your friend and allow so many others to suffer from the same thing?I would agree with ranger on this... I am not God, and I do not know. Maybe when I meet him face to face I will ask him.

[USViking]

I have read two biographies of Newton,
and this scene was not played in either one.

Who was the "atheist Scientist", anyway?-
You got any data on his identity?

And cp's "good old Newton" does not mention
the hundreds of millions killed and mutilated
by the clockwork universe of Newton's God,
who Newton surely thought was perfection itself.

The main problem with the watchmaker argument
is that it ignores the fact that God, if he exists,
is a mass murderer.

[USViking]

And oh, Grey Ghost, how can you be too lazy
to not even proof-read your own thread title?

The word is: "Query".

[MikeD4o7]

If it is natural for a cancerous tumor to disapear on its own the cause is far, far past current human understanding. And due to statistical probability, even if it was natural, it is a miracle.

I haven't taken an anatomy or biology class since highschool, so I can't really comment on what the possible causes or probabilities would be... especially since we don't even know the specifics of the case. So I pretty much have to leave this as is... but if there's anybody in the medical field that sees that could offer some insight then maybe we can take this further.

[Craig]

I have done some Biology, but I think only a cancer specialist would really be completely qualified to speak on this issue. However, it is well known that the human body has a tremendous capacity for healing, particularly if one actively mentally wills the body to heal itself. Spending time actually concentrating upon your body healing itself often seems to make a great difference when dealing with illness. A positive attitude and a strong will to live also go a long way too. Some people might call recovery from diseases a gift from God, while others simply see it as the body's own innate capacity to heal itself. Regardless, it is an interesting subject for discussion.

[Craig]

And oh, Grey Ghost, how can you be too lazy
to not even proof-read your own thread title?

The word is: "Query".

Actually, US Viking, Grey Ghost wasn't lazy when titling this thread at all, and you would do well to double-check a possible word that you do not know, rather than accusing others of spelling errors. ;)

According to the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary:

orrery
A mechanical, usu. clockwork, model of the solar system.

[USViking]

Actually, US Viking, Grey Ghost wasn't lazy when titling this thread at all, and you would do well to double-check a possible word that you do not know, rather than accusing others of spelling errors. ;)

According to the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary:

orrery
A mechanical, usu. clockwork, model of the solar system.

I am happy to be corrected by those
more knowledgeable, as I have been here.

My apologies to Grey Ghost, and thanks
to Craig for pointing out my error.

[CyNix]

I haven't taken an anatomy or biology class since highschool, so I can't really comment on what the possible causes or probabilities would be... especially since we don't even know the specifics of the case. So I pretty much have to leave this as is... but if there's anybody in the medical field that sees that could offer some insight then maybe we can take this further.Fair...
However this is not an isolated case in my small group of Christian friends... this is only one of many. I could list them...

[Craig]

Fair...
However this is not an isolated case in my small group of Christian friends... this is only one of many. I could list them...

Cynix,

Considering that there are atheists and people of other faiths who recover against seemingly impossible odds, there is good indication that recoveries of this sort are not due to divine intervention. Unless, of course, God also heals blasphemers. But that hardly seems fair to all the good Christians who put their faith in God, doesn't it?

[ranger]

Cynix,

Considering that there are atheists and people of other faiths who recover against seemingly impossible odds, there is good indication that recoveries of this sort are not due to divine intervention. Unless, of course, God also heals blasphemers. But that hardly seems fair to all the good Christians who put their faith in God, doesn't it?You would be surprised how many workmates, friends or family members will start asking their Christian friends to pray for someone they know that is a non believer and suffering insurmountable odds in their lives. Prayer chains can number in the 10's of thousands of praying Christians. God listens to his believers and sometimes acts in very mysterious ways.

God could easily help an atheist as an answer to the prayers. Who knows, he might even make a personal appearance to the sick person.

[MikeD4o7]

Fair...
However this is not an isolated case in my small group of Christian friends... this is only one of many. I could list them...


Well, I think Craig's earlier post might help explain this.

Craig said:
"I have done some Biology, but I think only a cancer specialist would really be completely qualified to speak on this issue. However, it is well known that the human body has a tremendous capacity for healing, particularly if one actively mentally wills the body to heal itself. Spending time actually concentrating upon your body healing itself often seems to make a great difference when dealing with illness. A positive attitude and a strong will to live also go a long way too. Some people might call recovery from diseases a gift from God, while others simply see it as the body's own innate capacity to heal itself."


I don't know all that much about how the specifics of how that would work, but I have heard in passing several things about how very interconnected the brain and the immune system are. So while I can't explain exactly how it would work, my guess would be that the answer lies somewhere in there rather than with divine healing.

[CyNix]

Cynix,

Considering that there are atheists and people of other faiths who recover against seemingly impossible odds...
How many atheists have had rotted fillings in their teeth replaced (On their own, in about 60 sec.) with new shiney gold ones, while their friends watch in amazement? This has even been documented in larger churches. Our church does not have any doctors... but the event was witnessed by about 20 people.


Yes, I know that it sounds unbelievable. I would probably not believe it if I had not seen it for myself.

[Craig]

You would be surprised how many workmates, friends or family members will start asking their Christian friends to pray for someone they know that is a non believer and suffering insurmountable odds in their lives. Prayer chains can number in the 10's of thousands of praying Christians. God listens to his believers and sometimes acts in very mysterious ways.

God could easily help an atheist as an answer to the prayers. Who knows, he might even make a personal appearance to the sick person.

He might make a personal apperance to the sick person? About time! I've been waiting for a less ethereal bit of evidence for God's existence! ;)

That aside however, your statement brings us into a definately gray zone. It's gray because there's no way to effectively evaluate the veracity of what you claim. Even a family who was atheistic might have Christians friends who would pray for a sick individual. Or, even in the highly unusual and unlikely event that the invidual has no Christian friends or family member, or none of his Christian friends or family members know about his illness, there is still the possibility of Christian co-workers praying for him. On the other hand, and equally valid, it is impossible to know if for every instance of a non-believer's miraculous recovery there were Christians praying for him. And, perhaps more importantly, in the instances where a non-believer does recover and there are people praying for him, it is impossible to know whether the individual recovered on his own or was saved by God.

But there's still one confounding problem that you still face: How do we account for miraculous recoveries made by individuals in countries where none of their friends, family and co-workers are Christian?

[Craig]

How many atheists have had rotted fillings in their teeth replaced (On their own, in about 60 sec.) with new shiney gold ones, while their friends watch in amazement? This has even been documented in larger churches. Our church does not have any doctors... but the event was witnessed by about 20 people.


Yes, I know that it sounds unbelievable. I would probably not believe it if I had not seen it for myself.

Well Cynix, here's something we need to ask. Short of the individual physically keeping their mouth open the entire time, how did other people know what was happening? For that matter, how did the individual? And, more importantly, on what basis was it established that the fillings were "new"? Further, correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that fillings have consistently been made from inert metals such as gold for a long time, so how do they "rot"?

[Craig]

As I was just thinking about this further, if there are instances of fillings being replaced by new gold ones, why are there no scientific articles or papers on the subject?

[CyNix]

Well Cynix, here's something we need to ask. Short of the individual physically keeping their mouth open the entire time, how did other people know what was happening?He was being prayed for. After praying for him, he was asked to open his mouth to see if he had been healed. This is normal in our church, as well as other Charismatic churches. When we pray for some one we expect (out of expiriance) them to be healed. If not, we will pray again until they are. And, more importantly, on what basis was it established that the fillings were "new"? Because the old ones were the standard black ones. Black inert metals don't change to gold on their own. Further, correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that fillings have consistently been made from inert metals such as gold for a long time, so how do they "rot"?I may have mis-worded that. I do know that the tooth was rotting, and the fillings were falling apart. The dentist had told him that he would need new ones. It happens.

[CyNix]

As I was just thinking about this further, if there are instances of fillings being replaced by new gold ones, why are there no scientific articles or papers on the subject?
Well, I am not sure. Joe Chayka just went to his dentist for him to have a look. His dentist got confused, and their was really nothing to say. Unless someone stuck a camera in his mouth while it was happneing, the only credible evidence to the fact is 20 eyewitnesses watching it. I really don't expect anyone to believe this... but my point is that no one will be able to convince me that this, and other "miracles", were something other than the work of God.

[Craig]

Hmm, this would be very interesting if there was further investigation done into it. Naturally, you can understand that I would find this much easier to believe if I saw it myself. The problem, however, is that even pressupposing that all you say is true, and there's no possible way to secularly explain the appearance of the gold fillings, we have strong evidence for a supernatural reality, but lack precise evidence for the nature of that reality. True, the Bible claims to know the nature of that supernatural reality, but then again, so do many other holy texts. Something independent of the texts, (such as the spontaneous replacement of old fillings by new), is needed in order for it to become widely credible.

[CyNix]

Naturally, you can understand that I would find this much easier to believe if I saw it myself.Of course... Something independent of the texts, (such as the spontaneous replacement of old fillings by new), is needed in order for it to become widely credible.It is not independant of the Bible. The Psalmist said "My God shall supply all your needs, according to his riches and glory...". This has proved true for me and my family.

[Craig]

It is not independant of the Bible. The Psalmist said "My God shall supply all your needs, according to his riches and glory...". This has proved true for me and my family.

This then begs the obvious question that I've asked elsewhere before: How do you explain the fact that Christians, on the whole, aren't living a higher quality of life than atheists? For instance, I know of someone who's a Christian who has had many nasty setbacks, while I have not. Further, and equally importantly, how do you account for all the good things that happen to atheists during their life? If you claim that the good things that happen to atheists are not the result of God acting in their lives, then I will respond that a lot of Christians are far worse off than I am, which isn't consistent with your quote. If you claim that the good things that happen to atheists are, in fact, the result of God acting in their lives, that hardly seems fair to the Christians, and certainly isn't consistent with your quote.

[CyNix]

This then begs the obvious question that I've asked elsewhere before: How do you explain the fact that Christians, on the whole, aren't living a higher quality of life than atheists? For instance, I know of someone who's a Christian who has had many nasty setbacks, while I have not. Further, and equally importantly, how do you account for all the good things that happen to atheists during their life? If you claim that the good things that happen to atheists are not the result of God acting in their lives, then I will respond that a lot of Christians are far worse off than I am, which isn't consistent with your quote. If you claim that the good things that happen to atheists are, in fact, the result of God acting in their lives, that hardly seems fair to the Christians, and certainly isn't consistent with your quote.
I really don't know why Christians as a whole are not better off than athiests. I know my church as a whole is far better off, but I can not speak for other Christians.

[Craig]

I really don't know why Christians as a whole are not better off than athiests. I know my church as a whole is far better off, but I can not speak for other Christians.

Well, that casts more than a little doubt on the veracity of the Psalmist claim that you asserted earlier.

[CyNix]

Well, that casts more than a little doubt on the veracity of the Psalmist claim that you asserted earlier.
Again, I cannot speak for other Christians. I do not know how they live their lives... if they really are Christians, or it they just like the title...

[Craig]

Again, I cannot speak for other Christians. I do not know how they live their lives... if they really are Christians, or it they just like the title...

Yet, it is incredulous to say the least to expect that you and your church are the only ones who are Christians, is it not? That brings us back to my question again.

[CyNix]

Yet, it is incredulous to say the least to expect that you and your church are the only ones who are Christians, is it not?
I DID NOT SAY THAT! All I said is that I do not know the condition of other churches. I can only speak for ours, and I only know the condition of ours.

[Craig]

I DID NOT SAY THAT! All I said is that I do not know the condition of other churches. I can only speak for ours, and I only know the condition of ours.

I never claimed that you did. My point, however, is that while you do not know whether other people are Christians or not, there most certainly are some others, (hence my response), which means that my criticism still stands.