Mormons...what are your thoughts

[Dante1999]

So i saw the forum discussion on Jehovah Witnesses and i had to add my favorite subject in the whole world... Are Mormons Christian? Dante

[KWJams]

Welcome to the forum Dante,

Since you must have plenty of friends and neighbors who are Mormon in Idaho like I have here in Wyoming we are probably the best thing to being LDS experts around. :D

To answer your question --- I can not honestly say for sure. :thinking:

On some issues I would say yes they are, but then there are so many things that are so outlandish about their faith that I struggle with.
The golden tablets that Joesph Smith found is a big head scratcher for me. :thinking:

[Dante1999]

Yeah we do find a lot of mormons around here in these parts. What about Joseph Smith confuses you...

i have done a lot of studying on their religion. Maybe i could be of service.

[KWJams]

Golden Tablets found on a farm in upstate New York I believe written in some unknown language.

I may not have all the facts correct but I understand that these tablets were translated into the Book Of Mormon.

[Dante1999]

It looks like you already know quite a bit... The plates were translated into the Book of Mormon.

Many people deny the existence of people writing on plates in the time period that Smith claims his plates came from. But recently golden plates where also found in Mesopotamia in a building belonging to the rule and kingdom of King Darius. These Darian plates contained a history...and were from around the same time period as the Smithian plates. I found this very interesting.

My personal thoughts on the Book of Mormon? Having read it a couple of times...i think it checks out. I mean why not. God doesnt change and he has always sent us word...so why not word other than the bible? I think the Book is true.

Dante

[Blueangel]

The man who lives across the road from me is a covert to LDS.
He knows I'm agnostic and has repeatedly sent his friends over the road to try and talk to me. He does it for a giggle and I take it as such...except for the time he sent them over when England were hammering Germany at football.
He hasn't done it since ;)

He believes he's a Christian. Every Christmas we compete to see who can put the biggest star in our window.
I don't agree with the views of his faith, he doesn't understand my views either. We agree to differ and talk as friends.

[jnewbyjr]

A few more interesting facts, the Book of Mormom talks of Christ's visit to the America's - that is where the Gold plates came from. The Indians of North and South America have legends that say the "Great White, Bearded God" will return again one day. Another interesting note, where or who built all the cities in South America that many can't explain?

By the way, "Are Mormons Christians", I'd say "Yes". The actual name of the church is "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints".

[Dante1999]

Sounds like a believer joined the discussion.

I have heard tale of the white bearded God among Indian story telling. Actually i have studied Indian folk lore pretty extensively. Just in my study of Mormonism. If you are going to understand the Book of Mormon you have to have a basic understanding of the American Native. This is one reason why explorers and conquerors of America had an easy time taking over. The natives viewed them as angels, or Gods. Sometimes bowing to worship them.

So we have discussed our views on the Book of Mormon. But how about the Mormon temple experiance? I find their temple rituals facinating. It is also interesting the parallels between these rituals and rituals performed anciently by not only the Children of Isreal, but egyptians and peoples in Mesopotamia. They all link together in one fashion or another.

Dante

[jnewbyjr]

Originally posted by Dante1999
Sounds like a believer joined the discussion.

I have heard tale of the white bearded God among Indian story telling. Actually i have studied Indian folk lore pretty extensively. Just in my study of Mormonism. If you are going to understand the Book of Mormon you have to have a basic understanding of the American Native. This is one reason why explorers and conquerors of America had an easy time taking over. The natives viewed them as angels, or Gods. Sometimes bowing to worship them.

So we have discussed our views on the Book of Mormon. But how about the Mormon temple experiance? I find their temple rituals facinating. It is also interesting the parallels between these rituals and rituals performed anciently by not only the Children of Isreal, but egyptians and peoples in Mesopotamia. They all link together in one fashion or another.

Dante


If that is indeed true, then it would make sense. There are many truths that have filtered down through the ages and this could be just one of many of them.

[Dante1999]

Originally posted by jnewbyjr
If that is indeed true, then it would make sense. There are many truths that have filtered down through the ages and this could be just one of many of them.

Not necesarrily a truth that has filtered down through the ages. Perhaps some clarification of my statement is in order.

We should first start with the statement that Adam and Eve we most likely given temple rites. These rituals are probably closer to the Mormon rites of today than the ancient Children of Israel temples. After establishing this we can fast forward to Joseph in Egypt and him accepting his family and feeding them during the time of famine. At this time the Israelites were allowed to love along side the Egyptians as equals, until after the death of Joseph. During this time of equality the Israelites were allowed to practice temple rituals that had been handed down since the time of the prophet Adam. The egyptians saw these rites and thought they were cool and decided to incorrporate similar rites in their worship. i essence copying bits and pieces of the Israeli rituals. The egyptians eventually tired of the children of israel and placed them under slavery and no longer allowed them to practice the rituals of the temple. These rites then were forgotten during the enslavement and now we can skip to moses, who after freeing the children of israel went up the mountain to speak to God. He returned with the law, which is believed to be a higher law and possibly could have contained the orginal temple ritual given to Adam and Eve, But he saw that the Children of Israel were not ready for this law and he smashed it to the ground, returning to speak with God again and recieved the lesser law of the ten commandments and temple rites including sacrafice of animals in the temple. Then these rites were practiced until the time of Christ when he restored the original rituals. Which were practiced until the last of the original Christians were killed and then the apostasy ensued. These rituals were finally restored by the Prophet Joseph Smith...and continue to be observed today.

Now i know that was a really long explination, but i hope that i clarified myself. I find that kind of stuff facinating. I obtained that information by reading a book by a Mormon scholar at BYU. His name is Hugh Nibley and the book he wrote was called Temple and Cosmos. Very interesting take on the Mormon temple rites.

Dante

[Blueangel]

Originally posted by Dante1999
If you are going to understand the Book of Mormon you have to have a basic understanding of the American Native. This is one reason why explorers and conquerors of America had an easy time taking over. The natives viewed them as angels, or Gods. Sometimes bowing to worship them. I find that comment absolutely astounding!
So that's why the Indians were murdered by the thousand?
Truely a revelation :rolleyes:

As for the rituals, I'd say they're cobbled together from the old religions in a vain attempt to create an air of mysticism.

You may have guessed that I'm a non-believer.
I refuse to believe in any organised religion, especially one which oppresses women and peddles prejudice.
Or is that just what the 'missionaries' to the UK are instructed to spew when they come to my door?

[jnewbyjr]

Originally posted by Blueangel
I find that comment absolutely astounding!
So that's why the Indians were murdered by the thousand?
Truely a revelation :rolleyes:

As for the rituals, I'd say they're cobbled together from the old religions in a vain attempt to create an air of mysticism.

You may have guessed that I'm a non-believer.
I refuse to believe in any organised religion, especially one which oppresses women and peddles prejudice.
Or is that just what the 'missionaries' to the UK are instructed to spew when they come to my door?

Not sure how you figure that Mormons oppress women, the Mormons highly value families and they do encourage women to raise their children and like wise encourage men to support them. But I would hardly call raising responsible children, which women seem to much better than men oppessive. The Mormom women I know seem very happy. I do confess that many choose to stay at home and raise children, but once again they are enjoy doing so. I believe the Mormon church has the largest womens orgainzation in the world run wholly by women for women. Just not sure where your getting your information.

I guess to add to that, I'm not sure how you figure they are prejudice. They have one of the largest humanitarian aid programs in the world that is sent to Africa, Far East, Pacific Islands and other otherwise 3rd world areas. (Most that of minorities).

I do know that Mormons don't allow homosexuals along with other sexual sins, criminals and so forth to hold church offices and depending on the transgression - they do excummunicate for such offenses. But then again so do many religious groups. I would hardly call standing up for your beliefs prejudical. Now if you show hate, incite hate or venegence and/or berate them, that is prejudice. But once again, I'm not sure they fit that catagory.

[Dante1999]

Originally posted by Blueangel
I find that comment absolutely astounding!
So that's why the Indians were murdered by the thousand?
Truely a revelation :rolleyes:

As for the rituals, I'd say they're cobbled together from the old religions in a vain attempt to create an air of mysticism.

In repy, anyone with a historical understanding of the discovery, exploration, and conquering of the America's will see that this actually did happen in some cases. Ths indians actually bowed down to some of the early explorers. They also describe prayer cerimonies and meetings in which the indians worshiped a great white God. And yes in many cases these natives were killed. I personally feel that what we as people of european desent did to the native Americans, especially what the United States Goverment did to them. I can see a parallel between the Indians and the Mormon pioneering people in how they were killed and kicked off their land. But we must remember the reasons these explorers were killing them off. They desired riches and the land that these people occupied, for selfish reasons. I think some of your kinsmen from the U.K. were also involved in this event. As well as my own ancestors from Europe. We from the old world have a shaded and bloody ancestoral history.

As far as mysticism...i guess you could call it that. A Mormon would say sacred not secret. We encourage all to particpate in the Temple Ceremonies, but they must live up to the standards the Lord has set for entering a temple. Do that and you can come in. The only mysticism that exists is the one that people allow themselves to see. They can learn what happens in a temple anytime they want.

Dante

[KWJams]

By Dante1999:
I have heard tale of the white bearded God among Indian story telling. Actually i have studied Indian folk lore pretty extensively. Just in my study of Mormonism. If you are going to understand the Book of Mormon you have to have a basic understanding of the American Native. This is one reason why explorers and conquerors of America had an easy time taking over. The natives viewed them as angels, or Gods. Sometimes bowing to worship them.


I guess it all depends on which version of history one adopts.

Calling it "folk lore" pretty much limits understanding.

[Blueangel]

Originally posted by Dante1999
If you are going to understand the Book of Mormon you have to have a basic understanding of the American Native. When I want to know about Native Americans, I'll go to the source and ask a Native American.

I've nothing to gain by seeking secondhand information when first hand is available.

[jnewbyjr]

Originally posted by Blueangel
When I want to know about Native Americans, I'll go to the source and ask a Native American.

I've nothing to gain by seeking secondhand information when first hand is available.

I would challenge you to do exactly that. You will find that Native American indians from both South and North America have these traditions or legends and they are pretty uniform in belief. It is very interesting.

[DRMIZER]

Sorry, Christians do NOT believe Mormons are Christian.

[Missouri Mule]

Mormonism like all religion takes on a certain respectibility as it is watered down over the years. The orgins of Mormonism are much in doubt and there was a book written some time before Joseph Smith's revelations that bore a remarkable similiarity to his book. One might argue, as many have, that it was an early example of plagerism. The history of Mormonism is not altogether devoid of rather distasteful details.

Personally, I get along fine with Mormons. In my extended family we have Mormons but since I am not religious I just let it go in one ear and out the other. If it helps them to live responsible and circumspect lives, go for it.

[DRMIZER]

The Christian Research Institute has published a number of articles on Mormonism indicating, through scripture that htey are NOT Christian. Reason being the Mormons believe in more than One God.

Go to: http://www.equip.org/store/index.asp?Title=mormon&view=results&Sub=1&Range=10000&TargetID=0&DeptID=0&auName=&Topic=0&REST=2&x=14&y=7 and you will see a host of publications on biblical text references and explanations.

[Dante1999]

Originally posted by DRMIZER
Sorry, Christians do NOT believe Mormons are Christian.

I would then love to see a definition of the word Christian.

[ranger]

Christians believe Christ is God became man.

Mormons believe Christ is man that became "A" god.

[Dante1999]

Originally posted by DRMIZER
Sorry, Christians do NOT believe Mormons are Christian.

To counter your statement, I feel it only fair to provide this article written by Stephen Robinson. Yes he is a mormon theologian, but he lists some pretty common sense reasons why Mormons are excluded from the Christian strata and why they shouldn't be. It should prove to be interesting reading. It was first published in the New Era (a LDS youth publication) in May of 1998. I personally found the article to be wonderful when I first read it.

To access this article please go to
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm

and search for "Are Mormons Christian" under the New Era selections.

[jnewbyjr]

Originally posted by ranger
Christians believe Christ is God became man.

Mormons believe Christ is man that became "A" god.

To clarify better, Mormons believe in the literal Godhead as the original translation of the Bible would also indicate. If one were to take the literal translation of the original text of the Bible it would read, "In the beginning, the Gods created the heavens and the earth"; in lieu of the current translation which reads "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". This is but one example of the Bible in it's current form offering less than clear direction or at best a difference of opinion.

Mormons believe in the same God that mainstream Christians believe, they just believe that when God the Father addresses his Son, he is literally addressing his Son and not himself. They believe that the Holy Ghost is Gods form sent to dwell with man on earth as a link between God and Man.

The name Mormon isn't even their name, it's the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints".

Those that don't believe Mormons are Christians are usually those that aren't fully informed or maybe feel threatened by a belief that isn't totally in line with theirs.

[Dante1999]

Originally posted by Missouri Mule
there was a book written some time before Joseph Smith's revelations that bore a remarkable similiarity to his book. One might argue, as many have, that it was an early example of plagerism.

I believe you are referring to the Solomon Spaulding Manuscript, which has repeatedly been used as a theory as to how the Book of Mormon could have come about. This theory has also repeated been proven false. A good text about this theory and the most recent advocates of this theory appears in They Lie in Wait to Decieve, Volume Two By Robert and Rosmary Brown. I will include the brief summary of their book.

From the time of publication of The Book of Mormon, anti-Mormons
have sought to discredit it. One popular theory was that it was the
Spaulding Manuscript. Volume II of They Lie In Wait To Deceive is an
answer to the book, Who Really Wrote The Book of Mormon? The
Spaulding theory is completely discredited and the deceit of its
advocates, namely Walter Martin, Wayne Cowdrey, Donald Scales,
and Howard Davis, is exposed.
The critics case included an affidavit from a handwriting expert who
stated to these authors [Robert and Rosemary Brown] in a video taped
interview that he did not write or sign it [the affidavit]---that it was a
fabrication. An affidavit to that effect also appears in this book. Other
items included to prove their case were scare stories about threats
supposedly made by the Mormon Church to the handwriting experts---
which threats were denied by the handwriting experts, claims of false
genealogies in which Walter Martin falsely claimed to be a descendent
of Brigham Young, and Wayne Cowdrey falsely claimed to be a
descendent of Oliver Cowdery. The genealogies of Walter Martin
and Brigham Young were presented to show Martin that he was not a
descendent of Brigham Young, and the genealogy of Oliver Cowdery
was presented to show that Cowdery had only one daughter that lived
to maturity and she died childless. False credentials such as being a
descendent of an early leader in the Church or falsely claiming to have
been a "Mormon Bishop" [as Jim Robertson of Concerned Christians
of Mesa has done] or some other leader are often used by professional
anti-Mormons to lend authority to false claims.

Volume II also includes excerpts from The Book of Mormon to acquaint
readers with its real content and a copy of the original Spaulding
Manuscript for comparison.

All documentation is included for the most discerning reader.



This book describes how the Solomon Spaulding texts only simularity to the Book of Mormon is the mention of Christ. Spauldings writtings were more of a romance than a religious text, which he wrote and left in Hawaii, during his time living there. How could a text found in Hawaii, influence a man living in New York. The authors of Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon suggest that a second secret manuscript could have been floating around the New England era around the time of Joseph Smith, this theory however has proven false. There never was a secret manuscript and Joseph Smith never read, nor was influenced by the Spaulding text.

Dante

[Cedars]

Personally, I don't know much about the Mormon Church. But I found this little tidbit and am curious as to a response:

"Joseph Smith, Mormonism’s founder, taught the doctrine of a "plurality of gods"—polytheism—as the bedrock belief of his church. He developed this doctrine over a period of years to reflect his belief that not only are there many gods, but they once were mortal men who had developed in righteousness until they had learned enough and merited godhood.

"The Mormon church uses the term "eternal progression" for this process, and it refers to godhood as "exaltation." Such euphemisms are used because the idea of men becoming gods is blasphemous to orthodox Christians. Needless to say, Smith encountered much hostility to these doctrines and so thought it wise to disguise them with unfamiliar terminology.

"Although he softened his terms, Smith minced no words in explaining his beliefs. "I will preach on the plurality of gods. I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" (King Follett Discourse).

"Mormonism’s founder concluded that his flock didn’t understand the nature of God. No mortal entirely does, of course, but this particular group was handicapped, not helped, by the strange theories expounded by Smith."

[jnewbyjr]

Originally posted by Cedars
Personally, I don't know much about the Mormon Church. But I found this little tidbit and am curious as to a response:

"Joseph Smith, Mormonism’s founder, taught the doctrine of a "plurality of gods"—polytheism—as the bedrock belief of his church. He developed this doctrine over a period of years to reflect his belief that not only are there many gods, but they once were mortal men who had developed in righteousness until they had learned enough and merited godhood.

"The Mormon church uses the term "eternal progression" for this process, and it refers to godhood as "exaltation." Such euphemisms are used because the idea of men becoming gods is blasphemous to orthodox Christians. Needless to say, Smith encountered much hostility to these doctrines and so thought it wise to disguise them with unfamiliar terminology.

"Although he softened his terms, Smith minced no words in explaining his beliefs. "I will preach on the plurality of gods. I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" (King Follett Discourse).

"Mormonism’s founder concluded that his flock didn’t understand the nature of God. No mortal entirely does, of course, but this particular group was handicapped, not helped, by the strange theories expounded by Smith."

I would answer that question with the same answer as above. The Bible as it is translated isn't clear on many things, what has been taken as the only truth is that there is only one God and it is a Godhead of three in one so to speak. The scriptures leave room for other thought processes as well. Gods (plural) are refferred to many times in the original text, does this necessarily mean their are more than one - maybe, maybe not.

J.S. based his teachings and thus beliefs on the Bible together with the Book of Mormon.

I've heard it put another way, Mormons believe that God created this world and patterned it after other worlds. It is explained as one eternal round which will go on forever. They believe that man can progress throughout the eternities and improve on his/her stature. Put another way, their God believes and wants for his children the same that he has experienced himself, much like a father or mother here on this earth want their children to experience the good things in life on this earth and follow in their footsteps so to speak.

If the Mormons are guilty of anything, it's believing that their God wants all his children to experience that of the father. But to say, they don't believe in the same God is based on not understanding what they truely believe.

[Missouri Mule]

You might be interested in this link.

http://www.irr.org/mit/bomodern.html

[DRMIZER]

Originally posted by Dante1999
I would then love to see a definition of the word Christian. Not my definition. See site above.

[jnewbyjr]

Originally posted by Missouri Mule
You might be interested in this link.

http://www.irr.org/mit/bomodern.html

Not to be a bit skeptical, but the Tanners and many others quoted as authorites in this article have already been proven pretty much out to lunch by several non-mormon historians and translators.

Several (Non-Mormon scholars) have shown that the author of the Book of Mormon had to be at 15 different writers due to sentence structure and word usage. J.S. doesn't claim to be the writer, only the translator.

Yes, there are several various views and historians that believe the American continenents housed a very advanced population hundreds and thousnads of years ago. While at the time of J.S., he was laughed and scorned for such a belief - it has since been proven as fact.

I don't think Mormons claim to have all the answers, but their claims are hard to dispute based on actual facts.

One has to be very careful who they base their beliefs on, I still don't understand why people go to anti or discruntled ex-mormons to find the answers; kind of like going to the Ford dealer to ask them about a Chevy. They may have some truth, but buried in that truth - is often a fabric of lies that are enough to distort the truth.

[Missouri Mule]

Unless I misunderstood the article I linked it was not sympathetic to the idea that Joseph Smith was divinely inspired.

[jnewbyjr]

Originally posted by Missouri Mule
Unless I misunderstood the article I linked it was not sympathetic to the idea that Joseph Smith was divinely inspired.

Of course it wasn't, many people quoted have spent their lives trying to discredit the Mormons any way they can.

[Missouri Mule]

I really couldn't care less about the Mormons. I am an equal opportunity debunker of religion in general. Actually, I admire the Mormons for the self-sufficiency and responsible conduct in their affairs. It is just that I don't put much stock in their so-called religious book. I misunderstood your post.

There is a good deal of information on the Mormons and let us not forget the scandal in Salt Lake City a number of years ago that was written up extensively in the Wall Street Journal.

[jnewbyjr]

Which scandal might that be?

[Missouri Mule]

Oh Goodness. That must have been at least ten years ago and it had to do with a murder over some Mormon alleged forgeries or something like that. I think a car was dynamited; something like that. There was quite a bit of news about it. I'm surprised you hadn't heard of it. I think I may have a book on it around the house somewhere.

[Missouri Mule]

Try this link.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1555840647/002-2635667-2804823?v=glance#product-details

[jnewbyjr]

Originally posted by Missouri Mule
Oh Goodness. That must have been at least ten years ago and it had to do with a murder over some Mormon alleged forgeries or something like that. I think a car was dynamited; something like that. There was quite a bit of news about it. I'm surprised you hadn't heard of it. I think I may have a book on it around the house somewhere.

Might that be the Hoffman story? If so, Hoffman was trying to get the church to buy what turns out was forged documents. He is in jail for murder, but I'm not real sure what that has to do with anything. I really wouldn't put that in the category of scandel, but like any major or prominent group of people - their will always be people that do stupid things that reflect on the group as a whole. I guess that's why were human and aren't perfect.

[EvilTwinFelicia]

Originally posted by Missouri Mule
Oh Goodness. That must have been at least ten years ago and it had to do with a murder over some Mormon alleged forgeries or something like that. I think a car was dynamited; something like that. There was quite a bit of news about it. I'm surprised you hadn't heard of it. I think I may have a book on it around the house somewhere.

1985-- Mark Hoffman. He was producing forged letters of Joseph Smith, and he sold these letters to Mormon leadership for many thousands of dollars. Hoffman claimed to have "found" other letters, and when the Mormon church actually disputed the forgeries, Hoffman killed two people. He also accidently set off a pipe bomb in his lap, in his car-- almost killing himself. Forensic scientists say the Hoffman forgeries were the best, to date. Hoffman did end up in jail.

A&E's show-- "City Confidential," spends an hour detailing this story. For those who are interested, I believe you can buy this episode at the A&E website.

[EvilTwinFelicia]

Originally posted by jnewbyjr
Might that be the Hoffman story? If so, Hoffman was trying to get the church to buy what turns out was forged documents. He is in jail for murder, but I'm not real sure what that has to do with anything. I really wouldn't put that in the category of scandel, but like any major or prominent group of people - their will always be people that do stupid things that reflect on the group as a whole. I guess that's why were human and aren't perfect.

Human greed knows no religion, race, or creed.

[Missouri Mule]

I think there is a bit more to the story than that. Read the reviews in the link I posted.

[DRMIZER]

Originally posted by EvilTwinFelicia
Human greed knows no religion, race, or creed. Amen :angel:

[EvilTwinFelicia]

Originally posted by Missouri Mule
I think there is a bit more to the story than that. Read the reviews in the link I posted.

Indeed it is-- I just posted based on my memory from watching the various forensic shows on the topic. I see, from your reviews, it was actually three people whom Hoffman killed-- and the "young man" who was hurt was Hoffman himself.

Perhaps, 18 years ago, this was a big scandal for the Mormons. I think, almost 20 years removed from it, history shows how a greedy man took advantage of church elders-- and people paid for it with their lives.

[KWJams]

Here is another question I have never understood and may be just "LDS folk lore". :)

I have heard that members of the LDS Church believe in large families because they will re-populate a new planet with their souls or something like that?

Oh and they collect the birth records of non-Mormons to baptize the paper documents in the temple which effect baptizes non-Mormons into the LDS church.

[Missouri Mule]

That's a good point. Actually they are heavily into geneology and anyone can go to their site and obtain information not obtainable anywhere else.

I suppose what I was trying to say is this. The Mormons are very much into documentation and justification for their beliefs. Why bother with trying to cover up forgeries? Put it on the table for anyone to examine. The same thing has been going on with the Shroud of Turin. Back and forth and still undetermined.

[Dante1999]

Originally posted by KWJams
Here is another question I have never understood and may be just "LDS folk lore". :)

I have heard that members of the LDS Church believe in large families because they will re-populate a new planet with their souls or something like that?

Oh and they collect the birth records of non-Mormons to baptize the paper documents in the temple which effect baptizes non-Mormons into the LDS church.

In reply... I have never heard of re-populating a planet. This may be some myth of the Mormon church. The church doesnt necesarrily encourage or discourage large familys. A member isnt looked down upon if their family isnt up to Mormon quota, or if they dont drive a huge van to get their kids to church. My parents only had three, where as other families will go as high as 10-12.

But we are encouraged to have children. Children are a joy in life and they bring happiness into a family unit. A few years ago the church elders produced a document entitled The Family: A Proclamation to the World. It sets forth the Mormon doctrine concerning Families.

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html

Here is a quote to answer your question

"The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God's commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife."

Dante

[jnewbyjr]

Originally posted by Missouri Mule
That's a good point. Actually they are heavily into geneology and anyone can go to their site and obtain information not obtainable anywhere else.

I suppose what I was trying to say is this. The Mormons are very much into documentation and justification for their beliefs. Why bother with trying to cover up forgeries? Put it on the table for anyone to examine. The same thing has been going on with the Shroud of Turin. Back and forth and still undetermined.

Actually the Mormon church spends very little time answering critics and trying to prove anything. They would rather spend their time in more constructive pursuits with their time. They teach that one should spend their time helping others through service and attempting to keep nurturing their own testimonies of their Savior.

Now that doesn't mean there aren't others that try and prove or disapprove of past actions and doctrine - but you won't find the church spending a lot of money and effort doing it.

[Chamois]

Mormonism has as much Truth as any other religion. They are all based upon faith and either you have it or you don't. Attacking anothers' religious "facts" only opens up your own mythology to scrutiny.

[Dante1999]

Originally posted by Chamois
Mormonism has as much Truth as any other religion. They are all based upon faith and either you have it or you don't. Attacking anothers' religious "facts" only opens up your own mythology to scrutiny.

This is possibly one of the most truthful statements ever posted on this forum.

Dante

[EvilTwinFelicia]

Originally posted by Chamois
Mormonism has as much Truth as any other religion. They are all based upon faith and either you have it or you don't. Attacking anothers' religious "facts" only opens up your own mythology to scrutiny.

Exactly. You've presented an adult way of saying what I often see on bumper stickers-- "My God can beat up YOUR God."

[Dante1999]

Originally posted by KWJams
Oh and they collect the birth records of non-Mormons to baptize the paper documents in the temple which effect baptizes non-Mormons into the LDS church.

We do collect the records because we believe that geneology is so important. But we don't baptize the paper. We believe that these people who have passed on... are living in a place called the Spirit world. There is refrence to this Spirit world in 1 Corinthians 15:29... of the King James Version

"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

When we baptize the dead...we stand in place of them. For example if my Grandfather had died and not been baptized, I could take his information to the temple and then stand in the water in his place. They would call me by name and say they are baptizing me for my Grandfather and say his name. Then the person is baptized by immersion, because that is the way we believe is proper.

But that is essentially the in's and out's of baptisms for the dead. No baptizing papers, no digging up dead people. Just vicarious proxy, which any Christian should accept as doctrine. For Christ stood in our place when he suffered for our sins. That was a vicarious proxy... I don't remember where i was going with that. Anyway...


Dante

[jnewbyjr]

To expound one step further, just because a a person is baptised in proxy doesen't mean he/she is member of the church. It means the work has been done and that person will have to opt to accept or reject it.

[Blueangel]

Originally posted by jnewbyjr
To expound one step further, just because a a person is baptised in proxy doesen't mean he/she is member of the church. It means the work has been done and that person will have to opt to accept or reject it. Well do me a favour will you?

When you get to my papers...give me a miss! :rolleyes:

I'm a free-thinking adult with a mind of my own and I will be the ONLY person who decides what faith I'm baptised into. :mad:

As an adult of the species, I expect you to respect my wishes.

On many occassions I've had Mormon missionaries at my door, and on many occassions I've been told that my life is 'lesser' because I choose to have no faith.
That is nothing more than pure arrogance.

I have free will and if there is a God, I'm sure that he/she/it gave my that gift to use as I choose.

[jnewbyjr]

Originally posted by Blueangel
Well do me a favour will you?

When you get to my papers...give me a miss! :rolleyes:

I'm a free-thinking adult with a mind of my own and I will be the ONLY person who decides what faith I'm baptised into. :mad:

As an adult of the species, I expect you to respect my wishes.

On many occassions I've had Mormon missionaries at my door, and on many occassions I've been told that my life is 'lesser' because I choose to have no faith.
That is nothing more than pure arrogance.

I have free will and if there is a God, I'm sure that he/she/it gave my that gift to use as I choose.

Because you're a free thinking adult, that is your choice as it should be. No ones life is lesser based on personal beliefs and anyone that would say that is totally ignorant of Gods nature.

All the mormons are guilty of is trying to complete all the ordinances that are in the scriptures for those not getting the opportunity here on this earth. They don't pretend to think that just because the work is done, that a persons free agency is taken away.

I guess you could look it at this way, if the mormons are wrong - no harm, no foul because you will choose otherwise as if nothing ever happened. If by chance they are correct, well the work is done and should you choose to accept - you're taken care of. Either way you win.

Hs nothing to do with arrogance.

[Blueangel]

The ignorance stems from their failure to realise that I'm totally repulsed by the whole concept, and that they presume to know what's best for me!

I don't want to 'win' by their rules and definitions.

I don't want to spend the rest of eternity with people who honestly believe that homosexuality is a 'sexual sin'.

If God is a Mormon, send me downstairs. :D

[jnewbyjr]

Originally posted by Blueangel
The ignorance stems from their failure to realise that I'm totally repulsed by the whole concept, and that they presume to know what's best for me!

I don't want to 'win' by their rules and definitions.

I don't want to spend the rest of eternity with people who honestly believe that homosexuality is a 'sexual sin'.

If God is a Mormon, send me downstairs. :D

First of all, we don't believe God is Mormon, nor do any Mormons. The church is merely a vehicle to get back to God. So I guess you don't have to worry about going downstairs.

Once again, If they are correct - it's not their rules and definitions, it's that of Gods. If they aren't correct - once again no damage to anyone.

As far as Homosexuality is concerned, if they're wrong - then it really doesn't matter, they're just wrong like a lot of other Churches. If they're right - they're just trying to do what's right.

[Dante1999]

Originally posted by jnewbyjr
To expound one step further, just because a a person is baptised in proxy doesen't mean he/she is member of the church. It means the work has been done and that person will have to opt to accept or reject it.

Thats absolutely right. In the "Spirit world" we teach that those who didnt have the change to accept Christ in their mortal life are taught the gospel and then they have a chance to accept the teachings or reject them. Your agency to choose is never taken away. We just provide the means for those who have already died to accept baptism. This makes if fair for all the millions of people who died during a time when the earth didn't favor a Christian sect of religion.

Dante

[Dante1999]

Originally posted by Blueangel
If God is a Mormon, send me downstairs. :D

Hmmmmm

Dante

[MuckRaker]

Originally posted by jnewbyjr
First of all, we don't believe God is Mormon, nor do any Mormons. The church is merely a vehicle to get back to God. So I guess you don't have to worry about going downstairs.

Once again, If they are correct - it's not their rules and definitions, it's that of Gods. If they aren't correct - once again no damage to anyone.

As far as Homosexuality is concerned, if they're wrong - then it really doesn't matter, they're just wrong like a lot of other Churches. If they're right - they're just trying to do what's right.
Why do people continue to call them Mormons, when they even say in a book of which they say comes from latter-day revelation, that they are not to be called anything but members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. I mean, even "Mormons" still call themselves that, why do they allow a nickname to stick when it's contrary to a word of a holy prophet they believe in?

[KWJams]

Back to the "Golden Plates" :)

Are they on display anywhere?

Are there any pictures / drawings of them?

What language where they translated from?

[Captain America]

Salamander latin:laughter:

[Blueangel]

Weren't they conveniently broken or lost?
Hmmm...Seems Moses had the same problem :D

Mind you, he only had the stone ones to play with. Bit harder to break gold ones.

[Missouri Mule]

I just can't religion seriously any more. It just leaves me cold.

[Captain America]

Well said B-dog.

[MuckRaker]

Originally posted by Captain America
Salamander latin:laughter: Do you mean Spanish or one of the other romantic languages? Actually, I've heard they were in a language combined of reformed Egytpian and Hebrew. I think you mean the 116 pages which, I think the guy's name is Oliver Cowdry lost when he was trying to show them to his wife. Also, didn't Moses break them because of what he say the Israelites doing?

[Blueangel]

Originally posted by Missouri Mule
I just can't religion seriously any more. It just leaves me cold. :clap:

[jnewbyjr]

Originally posted by Blueangel
Weren't they conveniently broken or lost?
Hmmm...Seems Moses had the same problem :D

Mind you, he only had the stone ones to play with. Bit harder to break gold ones.

Mormons believe they were neither lost of broken, they were taken back by the angel Moroni because the world wasn't ready for much of what was in the book. They believe that God only wanted a portion of the Book transcribed. Some might say that is convienent such as the ten commandments.

On the other hand, the book has been studied by numerous non-mormon scholars and several items should be noted. It is said that no less than 16 various authors would have to have written the book due to the varied writing styles and so forth. Considering Joseph Smith had only a 6th grade education, that would preclude him from actually the writing the book. Only leave two possible scenerio's - he copied or he translated with devine help.

While their is a theory that he copied a book, that has been pretty much debunked and put to rest by mormons and non-mormons alike. Doesn't mean he couldn't have, just means they haven't found the real source if that is t he case. Not to mention, the real source would be pretty enlighting as much of it is being shown to be a real possibililty in light of the findings in south and central America.

Interesting to those who truly enjoy history and more specifically history on our two American continents.

[KWJams]

Back in those days, a 6th grade education was probably considered pretty scholarly.

Are there any records -- affidavits from witnesses who also saw these tablets? Or is the entire process based solely upon the word of Joesph Smith's personal account?

Interesting to those who truly enjoy history and more specifically history on our two American continents.

Exactly ;)

[Captain America]

Between you and me and the sign post....

Joseph Smith borrowed some things from the Freemason fraternity, and turned otherwise "symbolic allagory and fraternal ritual" into religious gobbly-de-gook. (Not that I would know first hand;) )

When I read that, knowing a bit about his life history, it is easy for me to conclude that HE only assisted in inventing his own religion through plagurism and psychotic episode. And a little help from a few friends.