CHEATERS are robbing the American

[DRMIZER]

A Congress hostile to the enforcement arm of America's tax system is making it easy for cheats to rip off the American public for billions of dollars every year.

CHEATERS are robbing the American people of billions of dollars in unpaid taxes every year. And, by its negligence, a Republican-led Congress has been complicit in the fraud.

The Senate Finance Committee will hear a consultant's report today that, according to The New York Times, is expected to show losses between $14 billion and $18 billion in 2000 alone. That kind of money, year after year, could pay for a lot of prescription drugs for frail, elderly people on small, fixed incomes.

So of course outraged lawmakers, once enlightened, will rush to crack down on the greedy chiselers. Right?

Honest, tax-paying citizens who grumble at the burden on their own shoulders might think so - but only if they haven't been paying attention to what anti-tax Republican ideologues in Congress have been doing for years.

The electorate's hostility toward taxes has made hostility toward the Internal Revenue Service more than palatable politically. Lawmakers have been denying the IRS the money it needs to investigate and prosecute tax cheaters, costing the government many billions of dollars more every year than it would have spent.

More moderate Republicans are not so tolerant of this bizarre, self-induced fiscal starvation. Aides say that Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa, the Republican chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, is frustrated by the failure to go after tax cheats.

So his committee will hear the consultant's report, prepared for the IRS, that will show tax cheats continue to operate with impunity two years after corporate scandals prompted pledges of legislative crackdowns.

The IRS simply does not have the money to pay the auditors to find abusive tax shelters and shut them down.

Meanwhile, the committee will hear, auditors at big accounting firms have lost their jobs for refusing to condone crooked corporate tax schemes, and rich individuals have been drawn in with assurances that fraudulent shelters are perfectly legal.

Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., will testify in advance of a bill he will introduce next week to bar accounting firms from selling tax shelters to companies they audit. The law needs tightening.

Beyond that, however, enforcement agencies - including the IRS - need enough funding to enforce the laws. Tax cheats aren't robbing "the guv'mint." They're robbing the American people.

No, I am not a big fan of the IRS. I know no one who is. But, I would much rather the IRS spend their time and energy on cheaters than on honest people like us.

[steve_in_mich]

I know it doesn't excuse the problem, but the best way to solve this problem is with a flat tax. Makes it a heck of a lot harder to cheat doesn't it.

[MrZero]

Ohhh...boo-firckity-hoo.

It seems the fedral government has hoodwinked the American Tax Payer enough to finance 9,362 pet projects spread out between 13 appropriations bills which total up to a whopping $22.5 billion.

Some highlights include:

$100,000 for the Trees Forever Program
$235,000 for dairy education
$2,000,000 for the plant propagation facility in Oxford
$750,000 for ornamental crops research
$350,000 for sweet potato research
$540,000 for urban horticulture in Wisc.
$1,200,000 for seafood harvesting, processing, and marketing in Alaska
$631,000 for alternative salmon products
$6,170,000 for wood utilization research
$4,214,000 for shrimp aquaculture research
$1,200,000 for seafood harvesting
$1,000,000 for oyster recovery
$1,000,000 for the Bering Sea crab
$225,000 for the Beluga Whale Committee
$4,000,000 for the International Fertilizer Development Center
$500,000 for the International Coffee Organization
$1,000,000 for a DNA study of bears
$350,000 for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, Ohio
$90,000 for the National Cowgirl Museum and Hall of Fame in Fort Worth, Texas
$800,000 added in conference for the GRAMMY Foundation in Santa Monica, California for music and arts education
and the list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on....

Hmmm. seems they have enough money to fund such rediculous projects as these. It seems we have $87 billion just sitting around to throw at Iraq at the expense of neglecting our own troubles. We seem to come up with the $1.8 billion tax dollars we pay the U.N. for annual dues, which does not include other "voluntary payments" we make to them. I guess it is real easy to steal and spend other peoples money and then complain that you can't steal enough to finance a massive number of absurd pet projects. $22.5 billion, $87 billion, $1.8 billion....all this would buy a lot of "prescription drugs for frail, elderly people on small, fixed incomes" but dairy education, a Trees Forever Program, catfish health are more important and sweet potato research, alternative salmon products, wood utilization research are more important and oyster post-harvest treatment research, the International Coffee Organization, the study of bear DNA is much more important...I think you get the point.

So, trying to make me feel sorry for a governemnt that wastes billions and billions of dollars on the silliest of whims while crying they can't give the elderly affordable perscription drugs (which isn't their job in the first place) and all at the expense of the tax payer just isn't going to fly.

Get real, the only people "robbing the American people of billions of dollars" is the federal government.

[DRMIZER]

And, the federal government is us. I agree!

[MrZero]

Originally posted by DRMIZER
And, the federal government is us. I agree!

If you agree that the federal govenrment is "robbing the American people of billions of dollars" then what was the point of this thread?

[DRMIZER]

I stated that CHEATERS are robbing the American people of billions of dollars in unpaid taxes every year. This is not cheating the government, it cheats all of us by having to cough up more. And, we then can't take care of ourselves better.

The thread wasn't about "pet projects" (which will NEVER go away). It was about the CHEATERS in the system getting us all. Re: the name of the thread. . "CHEATERS are robbing the American"

[MrZero]

Originally posted by DRMIZER
I stated that CHEATERS are robbing the American people of billions of dollars in unpaid taxes every year. This is not cheating the government, it cheats all of us by having to cough up more. And, we then can't take care of ourselves better.

The thread wasn't about "pet projects" (which will NEVER go away). It was about the CHEATERS in the system getting us all. Re: the name of the thread. . "CHEATERS are robbing the American"

My initial reply was to point out that the ones who are really "cheating" us are the politicians. The $14-$18 billion dollars you claim we are being cheated out of is nothing compared to what the governement squanders away each year.

So arguing that social programs are being ignored because of tax "cheats" is senseless when you look at the bigger picture of how irresponsible the governement is with much larger sums of money in the first place.

Any effort to place the blame of our woes on tax cheats is simply dishonest and a juvinile attempt to divert attention from the real "cheats" which is the government.

Further, it is not the governments job to be involved in all of these social programs anyway. It is because of their taxes that many of them can't afford medicine in the first place. Everytime the government gets involved in some new social program of the day, they inevitably make matters far worse.

How is it that this country seemed to do just fine the first 100 years or so with no income tax but ever since they got in the business of getting into everyone's business and now collect hundreds or billions in personal income tax every year, they just can't seem to make ends meet? So you trying to tell me that the its the tax cheats that are screwing me is simply laughable.

[up2date]

DRZIMER has a point. Tax cheats certainly take a lot of funding away from programs where that money is needed. Worse, they pass the burden of funding onto others. Certainly they are not the only problem, but we can't deny they contribute.

I'm sure a lot of money is wasted on pet projects. But a list like yours is meaningless without a little background on each project. Some are surely a waste of money. But others might be legitimate when we learn more about them.

[MrZero]

Originally posted by up2date
DRZIMER has a point. Tax cheats certainly take a lot of funding away from programs where that money is needed. Worse, they pass the burden of funding onto others. Certainly they are not the only problem, but we can't deny they contribute.

I'm sure a lot of money is wasted on pet projects. But a list like yours is meaningless without a little background on each project. Some are surely a waste of money. But others might be legitimate when we learn more about them.

You are arguing about treating the symptoms and not the cause, unless you are arguing that bear DNA research, sweet potato research, oyster recovery, etc. is more important than making sure our elderly have the perscription drugs they need (per the example given in the first post). The only way your argument makes sense is if you think these other programs are more important because $18 billion dollars is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of money the government wastes annually. Your argument is like blaming a flood on a specific rain drop instead of the whole storm.

[up2date]

Originally posted by MrZero
You are arguing about treating the symptoms and not the cause, unless you are arguing that bear DNA research, sweet potato research, oyster recovery, etc. is more important than making sure our elderly have the perscription drugs they need (per the example given in the first post). The only way your argument makes sense is if you think these other programs are more important because $18 billion dollars is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of money the government wastes annually. Your argument is like blaming a flood on a specific rain drop instead of the whole storm. I don't get your analogy. Or, more accurately, I don't get how it's relevant here. Our government funds quite a few programs. There has to be a line somewhere between what is important and what is pork. Who's to say sweet potato research won't yield crops that can feed significantly more people, for example? That could clearly be an important use of funds. We all know money gets wasted on pet projects, and you're right, we should divert that money to where it's needed. All I'm saying is that not every "pet project" is an automatic waste.

[MrZero]

Originally posted by up2date
I don't get your analogy. Or, more accurately, I don't get how it's relevant here. Our government funds quite a few programs. There has to be a line somewhere between what is important and what is pork. Who's to say sweet potato research won't yield crops that can feed significantly more people, for example? That could clearly be an important use of funds. We all know money gets wasted on pet projects, and you're right, we should divert that money to where it's needed. All I'm saying is that not every "pet project" is an automatic waste.

Oh I can see it now. "We're sorry Mr. Jones, but we can't help you out with the life saving drugs you need but here are some sweet potato's. At least you won't die hungry." I love it. Would that be the Democrats stance or the Republicans?

Perhaps you can tell me why is it that the government's responsibility to research sweet potato's and not...oh I don't know....THE FARMER'S? At what point was there a collective decision to let the government take over everything that used to once be run by private industry and charities, who by the way do a much more efficient job than the government ever has?

I am sure we will never see eye to eye on this and many other topics as I firmly believe the government has no place in research, medicine or any social program you can name. It is better left to businesses, private individuals and charities.

[up2date]

Originally posted by MrZero
Oh I can see it now. "We're sorry Mr. Jones, but we can't help you out with the life saving drugs you need but here are some sweet potato's. At least you won't die hungry." I love it. Would that be the Democrats stance or the Republicans?

Perhaps you can tell me why is it that the government's responsibility to research sweet potato's and not...oh I don't know....THE FARMER'S? At what point was there a collective decision to let the government take over everything that used to once be run by private industry and charities, who by the way do a much more efficient job than the government ever has?

I am sure we will never see eye to eye on this and many other topics as I firmly believe the government has no place in research, medicine or any social program you can name. It is better left to businesses, private individuals and charities. We've taken away from the original topic of the thread (bad moderator:whack: ), which is that cheaters have taken from you and me.

[MrZero]

Ok, well then I say kudos to anyone who can keep as much of the money that they earned out of a waseful governments greedy hands.

I don't feel cheated by these people at all.

[DRMIZER]

Originally posted by MrZero
Ok, well then I say kudos to anyone who can keep as much of the money that they earned out of a waseful governments greedy hands.

I don't feel cheated by these people at all.

But, you and I have to pick up and pay the difference for cheating the government. Afterall, they are cheating us! Your analogy is as though you don't blame those on the welfare rolls WHO SHOULDN'T BE THERE. . . . If those on welfare who could actually work worked, then they would be paying taxes as well. I don't give kudos to those who take money from the government. I don't care which end of the barrel they are drinking out of!! ;)

[MrZero]

No where in the article you posted did it mention people on welfare who are able to work but don't as being the one's accused of being tax cheats....

Meanwhile, the committee will hear, auditors at big accounting firms have lost their jobs for refusing to condone crooked corporate tax schemes, and rich individuals have been drawn in with assurances that fraudulent shelters are perfectly legal.

Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., will testify in advance of a bill he will introduce next week to bar accounting firms from selling tax shelters to companies they audit. The law needs tightening.

They are accusing people who actually earn an income of trying to keep it. If you look at my earlier post:
I firmly believe the government has no place in research, medicine or any social program you can name. It is better left to businesses, private individuals and charities.
You will see that I don't support government welfare in the first place so if you were to eliminate it you would thus eliminate part of a bigger problem in the process of stopping welfare cheats.

[Jorja]

Originally posted by MrZero

At what point was there a collective decision to let the government take over everything that used to once be run by private industry and charities, who by the way do a much more efficient job than the government ever has?

I firmly believe the government has no place in research, medicine or any social program you can name. It is better left to businesses, private individuals and charities.

It may be true that charities and non-profits do a far better, and more cost effective, of delivering social services than the government.

However, these agencies are already strapped as it is, where would you propose the funding to come from that would enable them to effectively carry out such a large task?

No government funded social services, means the community would still be paying federal taxes (woohoo more money for defense!) and have the addened burden of supporting community organizations who rely on the donations of the community (surprise surprise) to carry out their servivces.

[shikaki]

Who is to blame? I think we can all agree that this is a multifaceted dilemma. There are the “cheaters” that are swindling out of every penny. I think we can all agree that this consist of the top 10% of the country. Only they can afford the best legal/accounting advice. Let’s beg the question, how does an individual “earn” 20 million a year? And if they have “earned” 20 million a year why should they be exempt from 1 cent of tax. People have this twisted view of society that says I can take and take and take and I have a right to weasel out of any tax that I can. I have a news flash for those folks, without this country, the government and the people in it you wouldn’t have “earned” 1 red cent, so get off your egotistical soap box and cough up what you owe.

There is also the government, which I read Mr Zero refer to as them throughout the entire thread. Them is us. Plain and simple. We as a country want, almost expect the government to take over challenging problems and just take care of it, whatever it is. For the record, we are abdicating our own free will, because of our own apathy and greed. We as a country need to step up to the plate and stop expecting the government(someone else) to just take care of it. If we all agree that big business and special interest groups control the political direction then the government needs to cut the crap and stop the nepotism. Vote out the politicians. Force a turnover in representation periodically. It will the corruptibility to a minimum.

To DrMizer point, this is a small economic system. What one person does or doesn’t do really can affect the whole.