comedian George Carlin enters rehab program

[green lantern]

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=V4UNW13F5KYKWCRBAELCF FA?type=entertainmentNews&storyID=7188997

to much wine and vicodin

[::Major_Baker::]

Good for him. hahah wine and vicodin......
That's awesome he rips on his own audience.

[green lantern]

nice to see that he has enough sense to realize that he has a problem and is taking steps to solve it.

[::Major_Baker::]

nice to see that he has enough sense to realize that he has a problem and is taking steps to solve it.
I bought my brother his new book for xmas: "When will Jesus bring the pork chops?"

[green lantern]

I bought my brother his new book for xmas: "When will Jesus bring the pork chops?" has he read it?? i dont have any of his books, but i do have several of his comedy acts on cd.

[::Major_Baker::]

has he read it?? i dont have any of his books, but i do have several of his comedy acts on cd.
Not yet. I will borrow it after he is done and report on it int he future.

[Captain America]

Vicodin? Yuk.......

[historyteach]

He is couragous for two reasons.
1. Recognizing that he has a problem and doing something about it.
2. Going public, so that others may benefit from his experience.
Addiction is a scurge on our society. It is a medical desease which is stigmatized, much like cancer or aids once was. Addicts need medical help, not prison, which is how society deals with it.
Carlin is blessed in that he has the resources to get the help he needs. As the mother of a heroin addict, I can assure you, there are far too many addicts who suffer and die because we want to blame and shame people with addictive disorders. The genetic roots of addiction are becoming clearer all the time. Shame and blame are not the answers, they are part of the problem.
All I can say is "Thank you George." Once again, you bring an important issue to light.
L'Chaim!

[spork]

Good for George, taking the initiative to go to treatment, and speaking up about it. I think one of the reasons that recovering addicts/alcoholics continue to be stigmatized is that we don't know who they are. Thanks to the anonymity of AA (which is both a good and a bad thing) we don't know that the drunk is our next door neighbor, our kid's teacher, the surgeon at the local hospital, the bus driver, the hairdresser - you get the picture. I understand the benefits of anonymity very well (and I enjoyed it when I had it) but it's also something of a drawback, too.

Historyteach - thank you for your words of wisdom about the biology and nature of addiction. Far too many people still see alcoholism as a moral failure.

[Ed Sane]

The genetic roots of addiction are becoming clearer all the time. Shame and blame are not the answers, they are part of the problem.

Shame and blame are the answers, it was Carlins own fault that he got addicted, how many people did he affect from his problems. Do you think he chose to go himself, or was he coerced by family. Humans are weak, I would not put so much strength in the idea that he did this because he wanted to be off.

[Heads_On_Pikes]

Carlin to his Catholic schoolteacher: "If God is all powerfull, can he make a rock so big he himself can't move it?"

I love George! He's 67 years old and has had three heart attacks...he certainly knows better, he is a smart man.

[green lantern]

Shame and blame are the answers, it was Carlins own fault that he got addicted, how many people did he affect from his problems. Do you think he chose to go himself, or was he coerced by family. Humans are weak, I would not put so much strength in the idea that he did this because he wanted to be off.yes, it was his own fault, and yes, i believe that he chose to go into treatment. some people are that strong that they dont need to be pushed.

[Ed Sane]

I have never met anyone who didnt go to rehab without kicking/screaming or a court order.

[el nopal]

Too bad Carlin is in Vegas. I thought it was known as the celebrity career graveyard.

He is too good for Vegas.

[historyteach]

Yea, Ed,
Blame and shame people because of their genetic structure. That works! :rolleyes:
Let's start blaming people with red hair, ok?
Oh, and this REALLY shows the extent of your knowledge!
"I have never met anyone who didnt go to rehab without kicking/screaming or a court order."
A little research here would go a very long way....
L'Chaim!

[spork]

I have never met anyone who didnt go to rehab without kicking/screaming or a court order.

You need to meet some new people, then. There are plenty of us out here.

[Ed Sane]

"Blame and shame people because of their genetic structure."

I am just not an apologist for other peoples problems. Yes people can get addicted to say alcohol. Genetics just means their more predisposed to such an addiction. But it is THEIR FAULT, for whatever actionst hey take during such an addiction. Clearly it is going to hurt people other then themselves. But thanks for the subtle insults.


Some people do go willingly to rehab. But how much damage happened to you or other people, before you decided you had a problem. Was it just yourself or did you effect other people spork?

[spork]

Of course I affected other people. That's what drunks/addicts do. Like most drunks I had no idea how much I was hurting people. I come from a long line of alcoholics, genetic predisposition runs rampant in my family. My addiction was not a conscious choice. I didn't grow up playing Barbie's Dream Rehab, hoping to become an alcoholic. In fifth grade when Mr. Martin asked what we wanted to be when we grew up, I didn't say I wanted to be an alcoholic or an addict.

You don't seem to know much about addiction, Ed - and sadly you don't seem to be willing to learn. It does no good to point the blame finger - in fact it does more harm. If people with alcholism ( a disease, by the way - as acknowledged by the AMA and the APA) are afraid of being judged as moral failures, it prevents them from getting help. You wouldn't blame someone with a family history of heart trouble for having a heart attack - but you're happy to blame someone with addiction for being "weak" and a failure. Is it any wonder that in a society filled with people who regard alcoholics as weak willed losers that people have to be dragged or shackled to treatment?

[Ed Sane]

People who are alcoholics are weak. That would be the whole addicted part would it not? They would need some sort of outside help to turn them away from their addictions

I dont consider an addiction to alcohol or any other drug for that matter a disease. And if it is a disease it is completly by choice, so I would have no respect for those who have contracted it.

I come from a family of alcoholics, by all rights I fit into the genetic category of a likely to become alcoholic. And I say right now if I became an alcoholic I would hope someone would point that I am a failure. And alcoholics are failures they destroy themselves, others, their family. Maybe I cant blame them for being an addict, but I can blame them for using their drug of choice and hurting others.

[spork]

People who are alcoholics are weak. That would be the whole addicted part would it not? They would need some sort of outside help to turn them away from their addictions

What you're saying is that because they can't control their addiction, they're weak, with the implication being that because you aren't addicted, you're strong. Next time you get diarrhea, let me know how well you do at controlling it, strongman.

I dont consider an addiction to alcohol or any other drug for that matter a disease. And if it is a disease it is completly by choice, so I would have no respect for those who have contracted it.

Fortunately you aren't being consulted. The American Medical Association does consider it a disease. It is not a disease contracted by choice, as a modicum of reading on addiction would show you. I suspect your own fears, prejudices, and old hurts are too comfortable to challenge, however. Easier to stereotype than to try thinking in a new way.

Since I am a recovering alcoholic, I accept your lack of respect.

And I say right now if I became an alcoholic I would hope someone would point that I am a failure.

What, precisely, would you see as the benefit of that? How would that help you? If you got help would you still be a failure?

And alcoholics are failures they destroy themselves, others, their family. Maybe I cant blame them for being an addict, but I can blame them for using their drug of choice and hurting others.

As I've stated before, they don't do any of these things by choice. They can't help themselves. The fear of getting help is huge - largely because of attitudes like the ones you're expressing.

You've stated you have no respect for people like me - well, Ed - I have a great deal of pity for people like you. Clearly you were damaged, growing up in an alcholic family. You can choose to sit in that pile of damage, reveling in the pain and pointing the finger at others - or you can get some help and move on. My sister, who grew up in the same alcoholic home I did, has chosen to sit in her misery. She's mean, she's angry, and she'll die that way.
Programs like Adult Children of Alcholics (ACA) or Al-Anon have helped millions of people deal with the pain of growing up with, or living with alcoholics.

[historyteach]

Spork;
I think it does no good talking to Ed. It is like talking to the disease of alcoholism/addiction. Denial is not just a river in Egypt. Ed is filled with denial.
But, you're correct. ACOA or Alanon/Naranon would open up a whole new world. A world of which he knows nothing.
Keep your serenity. And your recovery. Don't bang your head against a brick wall. It will only give you a headache.
Oh, and btw, congratulations on your recovery!!! How long's it been? Keep up the good work!
L'Chaim!

[spork]

Thanks historyteach!

I've been sober/drug free for 15 years now. I don't get upset by the Eds of the world, I work part time teaching a DUI education program to first offenders. I hear those same arguments all the time from my clients.

I really do have a great deal of empathy for everyone who suffered growing up in an alcoholic home. It's easier to recover from heroin addiction than childhood.

spork

[Ed Sane]

"Al-Anon"

I cant stand those help-groups and their ten step programs.


As for your diarrhea analogy, say I got it from eating to much chocolate. Woulnt it be my fault. Again genetics just means your more predisposed. If an obese person is fat because of genetics, all that means is s/he has to work harder then the average person to maintain a healthy body. The same goes to alcoholics.

"You've stated you have no respect for people like me"

I respect you for giving up your horrid ways, however were I to have known you when you were abusing a substance, I would not have respected you, and would you have derserved anyones respect?

[spork]

I cant stand those help-groups and their ten step programs.

They're 12 step programs, Ed. Obviously you know all about them, though.

Feel free to stay embittered, and angry. Your choice.

:flowers:

[Ed Sane]

I take my sister to Al-ateen. That stuff never worked for me. I preffur my angry, embittered self. Though generally I am a pretty happy person.

[Heads_On_Pikes]

Thanks historyteach!

I've been sober/drug free for 15 years now. I don't get upset by the Eds of the world, I work part time teaching a DUI education program to first offenders. I hear those same arguments all the time from my clients.



spork

Then your also smart enough to realise what a money buggering scam you are involved in as well. If it were not for the hefty revenue collection, states would not give a damn about DUI's. If the increased police awareness resulted in zero money - the police would still be having people park their cars and either walk home or give them a ride - like days gone by.

Addiction is a multi-million dollar profitable industry and the idea is to make sure everyone knows they are an addict to some substance. Take alchohol 'evaluations' for example. They are conducted at treatment centers, who surprisingly enough also offer classes and treatment. Naturally, everyone is rated an alchoholic and needs at least thousand dollar treatment program - imagine that! What is their incentive to be objective? There is none. In fact, just the opposite. The paycheck alone is incentive enough to insure that every individual that a court orders through their door is a flamming alchoholic or drug addict - let alone the non-subtle, money grubbing, "unofficial" hints recieved from local governments. It is a gigantic scam on the whole, IMHO.

I tend to agree with a lot of what Ed has argued on this thread.

[Redratio1]

Even if it is by choice, eventually it isn't by choice and becomes a disease.

Take the example of Rush.

[el nopal]

Even if it is by choice, eventually it isn't by choice and becomes a disease.

Take the example of Rush.
The movie?

[spork]

Then your also smart enough to realise what a money buggering scam you are involved in as well. If it were not for the hefty revenue collection, states would not give a damn about DUI's. If the increased police awareness resulted in zero money - the police would still be having people park their cars and either walk home or give them a ride - like days gone by.

Addiction is a multi-million dollar profitable industry and the idea is to make sure everyone knows they are an addict to some substance. Take alchohol 'evaluations' for example. They are conducted at treatment centers, who surprisingly enough also offer classes and treatment. Naturally, everyone is rated an alchoholic and needs at least thousand dollar treatment program - imagine that! What is their incentive to be objective? There is none. In fact, just the opposite. The paycheck alone is incentive enough to insure that every individual that a court orders through their door is a flamming alchoholic or drug addict - let alone the non-subtle, money grubbing, "unofficial" hints recieved from local governments. It is a gigantic scam on the whole, IMHO.

I tend to agree with a lot of what Ed has argued on this thread.

How many DUI's have you been convicted of, Heads on Pikes?

DUI got to be a big deal when people started dying a lot. More people, more cars on the road, and more deaths. There was an accident in my small rural area where 7 people were killed. The police should not be in the taxi business, ferrying drunks around. If you're convinced it's a big money scam there's a real easy way to avoid the whole issue - DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE!!

[el nopal]

You need to meet some new people, then. There are plenty of us out here.

Wait, isn't what Ed said a George Carlin line from one of his comedy specials?

[Ed Sane]

I dont know if I said anything which Carlin might say, though I am a fan. But I think in the world not enough people own up to their problems and mistakes. I am glad he is going into rehab, however it was his own fault for letting himself fall back into old ways.

"Even if it is by choice, eventually it isn't by choice and becomes a disease."

It is always by choice, being weak and having no willpower is no excuse.

[freckled fanny]

"And if it is a disease it is completly by choice, so I would have no respect for those who have contracted it."

Ed,
Your wisdom and compassion are mind-boggling. Where were you in 1974 when I was as young teen, hospitalized for an excrutiating condition that it took doctors months to diagnose. During this time I was given morphine, intravenously. Ultimately, I recovered, but I left the hospital an addict. I can only imagine the beneficial effects your insight would have had on my recovery!

I don't know why I feel the need to explicate this scenario for you, but I am, alas, compelled. At the time in my life that this occured I had never touched a drop of alcohol nor taken a drug stronger than penicillin. I knew nothing (and medical science knew little) about the dynamics of addiction therefore it was impossible for me to anticipate problems that might arise as a result of the morphine drip. (I am trying to find how I am responsible here Ed.) Furthermore, my state of consciousness was severely altered. I didn't know, nor was I capable of caring what medication was administered to me. I was a child who wanted the blinding pain to STOP, if it meant death. (Still trying to see where this was my choice, Ed.)

In 1974, there were no treatment facilities. Relatively little was known about the addiction process, so I left the hospital and detoxed at home. It wasn't pretty. I was also unaware (the fact had yet to be discovered) that because of my morphine addiction I was predisposed to relapse. It was grace and good luck that ensured I would never encounter opiates again and can say today that I have never relapsed. This wasn't strength of character Ed, it was luck. One trip to the dentist and a prescription for an opium-derived pain killer could have sent me into relapse and I would have again been in trouble through no fault of my own.

The recognition of addiction as a disease is a medical breakthrough that benefits us all. Public awareness of addiction makes it possible for people to protect themselves by recognizing genetic as well as situational predisposition. Treatment facilities now exist which allow people to address the issue with professional assistance and a modicum of dignity. Society as a whole has been strengthened because of the recognition of addiction as disease.

As for your respect. No thanks. As my grandmother always said, "For respect to be meaningful, the source must be respectable."

[green lantern]

"And if it is a disease it is completly by choice, so I would have no respect for those who have contracted it."

Ed,
Your wisdom and compassion are mind-boggling. Where were you in 1974 when I was as young teen, hospitalized for an excrutiating condition that it took doctors months to diagnose. During this time I was given morphine, intravenously. Ultimately, I recovered, but I left the hospital an addict. I can only imagine the beneficial effects your insight would have had on my recovery!

I don't know why I feel the need to explicate this scenario for you, but I am, alas, compelled. At the time in my life that this occured I had never touched a drop of alcohol nor taken a drug stronger than penicillin. I knew nothing (and medical science knew little) about the dynamics of addiction therefore it was impossible for me to anticipate problems that might arise as a result of the morphine drip. (I am trying to find how I am responsible here Ed.) Furthermore, my state of consciousness was severely altered. I didn't know, nor was I capable of caring what medication was administered to me. I was a child who wanted the blinding pain to STOP, if it meant death. (Still trying to see where this was my choice, Ed.)

In 1974, there were no treatment facilities. Relatively little was known about the addiction process, so I left the hospital and detoxed at home. It wasn't pretty. I was also unaware (the fact had yet to be discovered) that because of my morphine addiction I was predisposed to relapse. It was grace and good luck that ensured I would never encounter opiates again and can say today that I have never relapsed. This wasn't strength of character Ed, it was luck. One trip to the dentist and a prescription for an opium-derived pain killer could have sent me into relapse and I would have again been in trouble through no fault of my own.

The recognition of addiction as a disease is a medical breakthrough that benefits us all. Public awareness of addiction makes it possible for people to protect themselves by recognizing genetic as well as situational predisposition. Treatment facilities now exist which allow people to address the issue with professional assistance and a modicum of dignity. Society as a whole has been strengthened because of the recognition of addiction as disease.

As for your respect. No thanks. As my grandmother always said, "For respect to be meaningful, the source must be respectable."
you make some valid points, addiction is not always a "choice" as some would have us believe.

[green lantern]

Ed, this post is aimed specifically at you my friend, have you ever seen a baby go through withdrawal from morphine? I HAVE . that baby had no "choice" in the situation, and that baby had to be "broke" or "weened" 4 separate times from morphine, and this was in a hospital setting, as morphine was the only painkiller she responded to, as she developed a "tolerance" for her other painkillers, making them ineffective. this baby was a year old Ed, did she have a choice?? was she weak??

your argument has alot of holes in it Ed, to say the least.

[Ed Sane]

I admit my arguement does have some holes. Alright addiction to alocohol by an adult. Or any substance taken illegally. That I can not formulate any respect towards someone abusing a substance

Freckled Franny, during your addiction to morphine did you hurt other people trying to get more or using. I could really careless about addicts tell they hurt others in some form. If this happened (which is generally the case with alcoholics) I doubt I could respect you well you used prescription medication or any substance for that matter. Thats just my response. Sometimes, claiming an addictions problem and "its not my fault" mentality just dont go hand in hand. Franny yours clearly was not a choice, however what are your feelings towards alcoholics. Where there addiction really is a choice?

[freckled fanny]

Okay Ed,
I just waded through your errors in grammar, syntax, spelling, and word selection and am now prepared to respond to what I believe you were trying to ask.

Concerning this question:
"Freckled Franny, during your addiction to morphine did you hurt other people trying to get more or using."

If you will notice in my previous post, I explained that I was given morphine while in the hospital. There was no more "using" after I left the hospital. The idea of "getting more" never crossed my mind. During the time that I suffered the withdrawal symptoms I (a child at the time) had no clue why I was sick again. So, did my addiction hurt others. No doubt. My mother was panicked as she held me while I convulsed and vomited. She had gotten me back from the brink of death just to watch as I became ill again. Certainly she was hurt. Still, no matter what you say, I don't feel culpable.

You also asked:
"what are your feelings towards alcoholics. Where there addiction really is a choice?"

You know Ed, it is kind of funny. If I didn't know better, I would think that you knew me personally and were just TRYING to pick a fight. (She said in a lighthearted manner.)
But seriously, my ten-year-old daughter is an alcoholic. She has been since birth. She will be when she is an adult. Her birth-mother was severely mentally ill, she also had drug and alcohol problems. For the first three months of my daughter's life she never left our (my husband's, my older daughter's, or mine) arms. She cried, she screamed, she shook, she would break into a sweat, then suddenly she'd be cold as ice. The doctors informed us that our child would suffer permanent CNS damage and mental retardation. Today, a decade later, she has neither. She is, in fact, a brilliant little girl who fully understands that she was born with the disease of addiction. This child understands that we all have challenges in life, and addiction is hers. What good would it do our daughter if we blamed her for the fact that she was born an alcoholic? Let us take that a step further. Would it serve our daughter well if we blamed her birth-mother thereby instilling bitterness and resentment in our child?

I realize that at the top of your last post you made the distinction "addiction to alcohol by an adult". Even if a drop of alcohol NEVER crosses my daughter's lips she will always be an alcoholic. She is a child right now, but in a few years she will be an adult alcoholic. Even then, her alcoholism will not be her fault.

In closing Ed, you asked about my feelings "toward alcoholics". I told you my daughter's story for this purpose. It is ill advised for any of us (you included) to make gross generalizations about any population. All situations are different. Human experience cannot be put in nice little boxes labeled "right" and "wrong" just to make you feel more secure.

[Ed Sane]

Okay Ed,
I just waded through your errors in grammar, syntax, spelling, and word selection and am now prepared to respond to what I believe you were trying to ask......

You know Ed, it is kind of funny. If I didn't know better, I would think that you knew me personally and were just TRYING to pick a fight..


The first way to discredit a post is to attack its grammar. Me having a difference in opinion is in no way "trying" to pick a fight, I suppose you are use to people going along with what you say?

Your daughters story was really touching. However what if she were to take a drink of alcohol. And she spins out of control hurting many others in the process. Should I not blame her for the hurt she has caused? My point yes, there is addiction. However the actions one takes are still their actions and they should be blamed for what they have done, it is their fault. I am not blaming people for being addicts, I blame them for the hurt they cause others when they abuse a substance. In your case with the "morphine" you did nothing wrong. However if like Mr. Limbaugh, you countinued your addiction and caused countless others pain, you should be held accountable for such actions regardless if you were addicted.

[freckled fanny]

First of all Ed, it was not my intention to discredit your post by pointing out grammatical errors. It was my intention, however, to explain that due to errors in syntax, grammar, spelling, and/or word choice, I had difficulty discerning meaning. (Example:"If this happened (which is generally the case with alcoholics) I doubt I could respect you well you used prescription medication or any substance for that matter." Did you actually intend to use the word "well", or maybe "while" or "whether", or perhaps something different altogether.) If I am unclear about meaning, my response may well be superfluous.

Concerning the statment I made:
"You know Ed, it is kind of funny. If I didn't know better, I would think that you knew me personally and were just TRYING to pick a fight. (She said in a lighthearted manner.)"
This comment was intended to point out the subtly humorous irony that you and I just happened to engage in a discussion of addiction, I told you my personal experience with addiction, you countered with the question "how do you feel about alcoholics?" and I just happened to have an alcoholic child. My statement was "If I didn't know better, I would think that you knew me personally and were TRYING to pick a fight." I know for a fact that you do NOT know me personally, therefore I know for a fact that you were NOT trying to pick a fight.

Now, back to the real discussion.

On a number of posts in this thread you made several gross generalizations about those who suffer from addiction. I am not going back through them all but here is an example: "If it is a disease, it is completely by choice, so I would have no respect for those who have contracted it." This was your declaration, Ed. My personal experience rebuts this assertion.

Another of your assertions: "Alcoholics are failures, they destroy themselves, others, their family". Another blatant and offensive generalization that is inaccurate.

In light of the fact that generalizations lead to prejudice and false conclusions, how can I answer your question: "what if she were to take a drink of alcohol. And she spins out of control hurting many others in the process. Should I not blame her for the hurt she has caused?" That question presumes that she did it of her own accord. My personal experience with doctor-administered morphine has taught me that addiction (and even relapse) can occur through no fault of the person afflicted. Many legitimate medications are alcohol based. I cannot jump to the conclusion that any addict is totally responsible for their disease. This is my point. Gross generalizations like those you made throughout your posts are inaccurate and offensive. You cannot make valid claims about ALL alcoholics or ALL addicts or ALL dogs or ALL cats.

[historyteach]

"As for your respect. No thanks. As my grandmother always said, "For respect to be meaningful, the source must be respectable.""
Beautiful!
May I borrow it as needed?
Also, fanny, you post some wonderful thoughts, here. Thank you for sharing. I would like to add that even when it isn't a horrible mistake, or a mentally ill mother...there are addictions that are not a result of a personal fault; a moral weakness or any other prejudicial mindset. In fact - NONE of them are.
I can drink from now until doomsday...I am not an alcoholic. Another can have one drink and become addicted. They have a genetic predisposition, and do not know it until it's too late. Blame and shame are worthless here. Only serve as a means to make one feel superior to another.
No one is superior. We are all equal in G*D's eyes.
My son tried drugs at a very young age. He was 14. As a teacher, I can assure you that MANY kids experiment with alcohol/drugs; the majority have a fling with it, and get on with their lives.
He hadn't a clue as to what he was getting into. He is an addict - for 10 years now. He has been on the streets; he has been in jail; he has been dead and revived by the EMTs.
He is also bipolar, most probably; he is definately suffering from, (and always has suffered from), depression and anxiety. Dual diagnosis is a problem for about 90% of addicts. They self medicate. And like my son, these people usually start very young and get hooked before they have the ability to make and informed adult choice.
So, Ed, don't respect him. Frankly, I don't give a damn what you think. You spew your ignorance with an air of superiority that stinks to high heaven!
And, btw, just for your information. There is NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE who feels worse about their actions than the addict! Their remorse is just one more difficulty needed to overcome to achieve sobriety.
L'Chaim!

[Heads_On_Pikes]

How many DUI's have you been convicted of, Heads on Pikes?

DUI got to be a big deal when people started dying a lot. More people, more cars on the road, and more deaths. There was an accident in my small rural area where 7 people were killed. The police should not be in the taxi business, ferrying drunks around. If you're convinced it's a big money scam there's a real easy way to avoid the whole issue - DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE!!


Love these allowable personal attacks - lol! Hey, I forgot about this thread, it must have been a "blackout". :eek:

Well, porkster, the answer to your burning, personal question is zero. I don't DRINK AND DRIVE!!

No, sorry, the DUI became a relevent issue, a money maker, when legislation was passed to make it so. If there was no revenue to be raised, government wouldn't care...people were dieing in alcohol related vehicle accidents long before the first DUI, errr...public safety check road block (i.e., bust as many people as possible for whatever violation can be found in Stalinesque fashion) was set up.

It's rather interesting reading through some of the out-of-the-ordinary cases presented to evoke feelings of pity for those who waste their lives. Some cases are truely heart-wrenching, to be sure. But, those cases are dwarfed by the majority of cases of just plain bad people. You can rehab them till the cows come home at taxpayer expense - and as soon as they are able, they realise they can do it all over again.

[spork]

I didn't mean to insult you - I was asking an honest question. Usually people who are as resentful as you are about DUI programs, are people who have experience in the system.

I gather that your solution is to ignore the issue altogether, and let the dying continue. Why even bother to have laws against drinking and driving? Why not just make it legal?

But, those cases are dwarfed by the majority of cases of just plain bad people. You can rehab them till the cows come home at taxpayer expense - and as soon as they are able, they realise they can do it all over again.

Do you have some factual basis for these statements? I'd love to see the statistics.
Do you work in the treatment field?

The majority of cases are not plain old bad people - they're people that did a stupid thing one night. They're often people who didn't have a lot of information about alcohol or how it affects the body. You seem to think that everyone who gets a DUI is sent to rehab - but that is not the case in any state I've ever heard of. All states have a mandatory DUI education program. In my state it's 18 hours. The client pays for this - not the taxpayers.

Looking at the Illinois DUI statutes I see no mention of the mandatory rehab you have mentioned.

[Ed Sane]

So, Ed, don't respect him. Frankly, I don't give a damn what you think.

I could not respect him until he gave up his addiction, or until his addiction did not affect other people. If you dont care what I think, why do you bother posting in this thread?

When an addict hurts someone else other then himself s/he should be blamed accordingly. I came from a broken home, and I am tired of people telling me that I shouldnt blame that bastard for what harm he caused that now cannot be fixed. Yes I understand the genetic aspect. I am not blaming them for being addicted, I blame them for their actions which have harmed others, generally that goes hand in hand with an addiciton.

[historyteach]

Ed,
I post on this thread to see other's perspective.
DO you really think this thread is all about YOU; that YOU are the only issue here on this thread worth seeing?
I quote: "If you dont care what I think, why do you bother posting in this thread?"
And I post because others have eyes, and can truely see.
Blame and shame have NO PLACE in addiction.
Now, if you speak about holding someone responsible, I will stand with you there. My son, my only child, went to jail because he stole my computer. I pressed charges. I DO hold my son; my addict, responsible for his behaviors. My things are not for the taking. I refuse to protect him from the consequences of his own behaviors. I refuse to enable him. He is responsible.
If you cannot see that difference, you may have eyes, but, you cannot see.

"I came from a broken home, and I am tired of people telling me that I shouldnt blame that bastard for what harm he caused that now cannot be fixed. "
Yes, Ed, those things CAN be fixed. THey can't be changed once they've happened, but, they can be better in the future.
Get some help, man. That anger WILL kill you. It will kill whatever spark of humanity there is left in you. There is no shame in getting help to overcome our past hurts. A 12 step program or a counselor would be beneficial for your future. (And I say this with all due sincerity.)
L'Chaim!

[Ed Sane]

Ed,
I post on this thread to see other's perspective.
DO you really think this thread is all about YOU; that YOU are the only issue here on this thread worth seeing?
I quote: "If you dont care what I think, why do you bother posting in this thread?"

I was just pointing out that you countinue to respond to my posts. My position is not going to change. But if you feel I am such a narcissist please countinue to rant.

[historyteach]

"My position is not going to change."
How terribly sad to know it all....
"But if you feel I am such a narcissist..."
Feelings have NOTHING to do with it. Get some help...
L'Chaim!

[green lantern]

enough of this