Why Did God Pick On Them?

[DRMIZER]

Consideringt the recent destructrion of the earth via the tsunami wave, where was God?

As we read in many of the books of the bible, God reigns his wrath and destruction upon the earth with floods and plagues from time to time including killing the first born of certain people. He rained down fire and brimstone on an entire city. In all these instances God was "punishing" for the sins of the people.

What did these 150,000 plus people do to offend God OR: Choose your best guess. . . . . . . . .

[Rivet]

Many would say that God is in our response to this tragedy.

[cytwombly]

Why would God permit any injustice in the world ever? This is a problem for those who believe in God, especially a God of justice. Maybe God has nothing to do with justice, let alone preventing suffering.

[cytwombly]

Many would say that God is in our response to this tragedy.

Does that mean God is impotent to prevent massive loss of life like this?

[Redratio1]

Plate tectonics is part of the natural recycling of elements and the renewing of the surface of the planet. Without it, the planet would be much less fertile. To assume a few hundred thousand lives matter, in God's veiw, is very many seems like hubris to me. After all, she has the whole universe to manage.

[cytwombly]

Plate tectonics is part of the natural recycling of elements and the renewing of the surface of the planet. Without it, the planet would be much less fertile. To assume a few hundred thousand lives, in God's veiw, is very many seems like hubris to me. After all, she has the whole universe to manage.

Why does God not care about a few hundred thousand lives?

[Redratio1]

Why does God not care about a few hundred thousand lives?

Why should God?

A hundred thousand here, a hundred thousand there, big deal....In the end we are on our own to clean up the mess.

[cytwombly]

Why should God?

A hundred thousand here, a hundred thousand there, big deal....In the end we are on our own to clean up the mess.

Curious of your conception of God; doesn't care about massive loss of life...what does God care about?

[Redratio1]

Curious of your conception of God; doesn't care about massive loss of life...what does God care about?

Well look at it this way. Millions of people die from flooding every year. But those same floods bring rich sediments to open plains and farmlands, thus renewing them. If this process did not happen, the desert would eat away at these aridable areas; same with volcanos.

This is all part of the massive renewing of the biosphere. Be prepared to be squashed from time to time. Only people can learn to get out of the way (tsunami warnings) or take preventative measures (dams).

[cytwombly]

Millions of people die from Only smart people learn to get out of the way in time.

The "people" who got out of the way were animals. Not sure why you used the term "God," maybe you are not really referring to God at all;not clear.

[Redratio1]

The "people" who got out of the way were animals. Not sure why you used the term "God," maybe you are not really referring to God at all;not clear.

I changed my post. I meant throughout history, people who plan ahead, or create warning systems can avoid catastrophe.

[cytwombly]

I changed my post. I meant throughout history, people who plan ahead, or create warning systems can avoid catastrophe.

You haven't explained your conception of God to me yet. Perhaps we are finished.

[Redratio1]

You haven't explained your conception of God to me yet. Perhaps we are finished.

Well, my definition is amorphous. However it most definitely is higher up on the food chain of brutal reality than people like to imagine.

[Rivet]

Does that mean God is impotent to prevent massive loss of life like this?
Not being the official spokesperson for God, I don't feel qualified to answer for him/her/it.

Why is there any suffering in the world? Some say because it makes us stronger, allows us to show compassion, can't have the good without the bad. None of these answers is really satisfying to most people.

Maybe the best I can say is ... stuff happens.

[cytwombly]

Maybe the best I can say is ... stuff happens.

I know stuff happens. Don't need God to explain that.

[Chidi]

If "God" is pissed with anyone it is the whole of the western world so if you see country's in Europe or states in America disappearing then you know whats happening.

[Redratio1]

God is pissed? DOH!

[cpwill]

a rather interesting assumption, from a deist; that God is responsible for every single event of magnitude on this earth

[Redratio1]

a rather interesting assumption, from a deist; that God is responsible for every single event of magnitude on this earth

Just the mechanics of the planet, and life on its thin crust.

[cpwill]

is that, then, your assumption?

[Redratio1]

Its a fact. The universe is a brutal place.

[cpwill]

well, a tough one, certainly.

[Kathryn]

God isn't "picking on them". As a Catholic I believe God allows tragedies and bad things to happen in order to bring about a greater good. Suffering is never pointless if one has faith that it can bring about a greater good. Jesus Christ’s suffering and death on the cross teaches this.

"God did not make death, and he does not delight in the death of the living. . . It was through the devil's envy that death entered the world" (Wis 1:13; 2:24).

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature's being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good.

The victory that Christ won over sin has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us: "where sin increased, grace abounded all the more" (Rom 5:20).

[julierep]

Everyone needs to remember that God did allow satan to have some dominion of the earth and its contents. Why assume it was God?

[Myglarn]

My question to you who belives God is pissed or whatever: Is God ever satisfied? It seems to me he always has a reason - or need to punish. When will he be happy? ;)

It's relly funny.. my mother does not belive in God. But she did belive there was some higher being that caused the tsunami. And here is the funny part: Because there were too many people. :)

I however sticks with Redratios: "Just the mechanics of the planet, and life on its thin crust."

[Boldnold]

If God was responsible for the 9.0 mag. earthquake in Samatra and the loss of over 170,000 people by the tsunamis that followed it, then I guess there is an even worst disaster waiting for God's command to happen. What's next? Maybe, just maybe Yellowstone, the world's largest supervolcano may blow it's top in the not-to-distant future. It blows up approx. every 600,000 years in a somewhat regular super-eruption cycle. Right now it appears to be approx. 40,000 years overdue for another big one. If that happens, then you might as well right off the majority of U.S. and parts of Canada. The end times If Yellowstone blows again? Could mean a very bad day for the planet Earth when it does!

Boldnold

[DRMIZER]

a rather interesting assumption, from a deist; that God is responsible for every single event of magnitude on this earthBTW, This was my answer. I assume this was a question for me. . . . This wave was a freak of nature and had no religious significance or parallel;

[::Major_Baker::]

If God was responsible for the 9.0 mag. earthquake in Samatra and the loss of over 170,000 people by the tsunamis that followed it, then I guess there is an even worst disaster waiting for God's command to happen. What's next? Maybe, just maybe Yellowstone, the world's largest supervolcano may blow it's top in the not-to-distant future. It blows up approx. every 600,000 years in a somewhat regular super-eruption cycle. Right now it appears to be approx. 40,000 years overdue for another big one. If that happens, then you might as well right off the majority of U.S. and parts of Canada. The end times If Yellowstone blows again? Could mean a very bad day for the planet Earth when it does!

Boldnold
Dam straight! And Rhyolitic (sp) volcanoes are the most explosive! Better be ready!

Tsunamis are caused by massive shifts of water/land, not a spiritual being.

[Iheartsiobhon]

What about mother nature? I think the earth is sick of all the pollution and what not and is finally fighting back.

[::Major_Baker::]

What about mother nature? I think the earth is sick of all the pollution and what not and is finally fighting back.

Well, I don't think so.
The Earth is a non-sentient entity. It can't feel anger or frustration, it's mostly silicon and oxygen, not neurons and impulses.

I sort of know what you mean though.

[jamesrage]

Why Did God Pick On Them?

Theological wise God didn't.But since you asked the question.I will answer on what possible reason why would God do something like this.Let see what industry is really popular and considered illegal and immoral through out most of the world?Human sex trade involving children.

[Churlant]

Theological wise God didn't.But since you asked the question.I will answer on what possible reason why would God do something like this.Let see what industry is really popular and considered illegal and immoral through out most of the world?Human sex trade involving children.

So God causes an event which causes more children to be abducted for the sex trade in order to punish a region for that crime? :rolleyes:

-JC

[jamesrage]

So God causes an event which causes more children to be abducted for the sex trade in order to punish a region for that crime?

Good point,but maybe it could be a message to those people to striaghten the **** up.

[Churlant]

Good point,but maybe it could be a message to those people to striaghten the **** up.

I'd suggest not trying to make connections like this. People already have enough reasons to remain atheists without saying God did something that will cause what He is trying to stop.

Kind of makes Him seem a bit ditzy ;)

-JC

[Boldnold]

It's very possible that the earth is just now beginning to experience what the bible scholars call the 'End Times'. It may take a few more global disasters with greater frequency to begin to register it's meaning with the rest of agnostic world, but most of the non-believers would dismiss this particular disaster as a natural earthquake & tital wave event and/or nothing to be to alarmed about. But, it's possilble there will be worst things to come in the not-to-distant future. Best example I can give is a Yellowstone Supervolcano eruption which is already approx. 40,000 years overdue. That particular event when it does happen should make believers out of the rest of us, likewise an asteroid impact should do the trick too.

Boldnold

[Churlant]

It's very possible that the earth is just now beginning to experience what the bible scholars call the 'End Times'. It may take a few more global disasters with greater frequency to begin to register it's meaning with the rest of agnostic world, but most of the non-believers would dismiss this particular disaster as a natural earthquake & tital wave event and/or nothing to be to alarmed about. But, it's possilble there will be worst things to come in the not-to-distant future. Best example I can give is a Yellowstone Supervolcano eruption which is already approx. 40,000 years overdue. That particular event when it does happen should make believers out of the rest of us, likewise an asteroid impact should do the trick too.

Boldnold

Uhm... follow me here Bold...

If Yellowstone already blows every so many thousands of years... and it is already 40,000 years overdue... if it blows tomorrow, wouldn't that simply mean it is following the pattern it has always followed?

Now if the thing blew 50K years before it was supposed to... or if a mountain we knew wasn't a volcano suddenly became one.. now THAT would be something.

But an already repeating geological phenomenon repeating again means God did it?

Right.

Sounds like wishful thinking to me :) Not that I know why anyone would wish for Yellowstone to blow... well okay, I DO know...

-JC

[::Major_Baker::]

Also remember Bold that 40,000 years in geologic time = peanuts.
It could be another million and still be considered close.

[Boldnold]

Uhm... follow me here Bold...

If Yellowstone already blows every so many thousands of years... and it is already 40,000 years overdue... if it blows tomorrow, wouldn't that simply mean it is following the pattern it has always followed?

Now if the thing blew 50K years before it was supposed to... or if a mountain we knew wasn't a volcano suddenly became one.. now THAT would be something.

But an already repeating geological phenomenon repeating again means God did it?

Right.

Sounds like wishful thinking to me :) Not that I know why anyone would wish for Yellowstone to blow... well okay, I DO know...

-JC

God (if God exists), can just about do or control anything he wants. If he wants to create a major earthquake, I guess he can do it. If he wants Yellowstone to blow it's top off again in the next twenty years, he can do it. So I would think that anyone (God) who has the power to create the universe, could probably make a few earthquakes and volcanos blow here on earth anytime they want, don't you think? If you don't think it's possible for God (if God exists) to do these things, then go buy some lakefront property in Yellowstone, put a six pack of beer in your boat, row out to middle of Yellowstone Lake, drop your line in the water, light up a couple of cigars and wait for the fireworks to start. If and when it does, you should have a blast!

Boldnold :)

[Churlant]

God (if God exists), can just about do or control anything he wants. If he wants to create a major earthquake, I guess he can do it. If he wants Yellowstone to blow it's top off again in the next twenty years, he can do it. So I would think that anyone (God) who has the power to create the universe, could probably make a few earthquakes and volcanos blow here on earth anytime they want, don't you think? If you don't think it's possible for God (if God exists) to do these things, then go buy some lakefront property in Yellowstone, put a six pack of beer in your boat, row out to middle of Yellowstone Lake, drop your line in the water, light up a couple of cigars and wait for the fireworks to start. If and when it does, you should have a blast!

Boldnold :)

You're missing the point. The question isn't whether God can do it. The question isn't whether God WOULD do it.

God is capable, sure. But you know, the Earth does it also. In fact, unless you want to claim God is responsible for most natural disasters, the Earth has done it far more times on its very own.

The question is why you ASSUME it's God THIS time? Is God supposed to halt all natural disasters while Mankind is around so we can feel important when one occurs, thinking God did it?

-JC

[beg your pardon]

God doesnt like the Western world getting there quality clothes made at an affordable price so he punished the poor people who make them.

[Boldnold]

It depends on God (if God exists). I'm sure God would be more than happy to let the planet earth create it's own natural disasters. Probably the only time God would want to get envolved is when he thinks it's time for him to make a point!

Boldnold

[Churlant]

It depends on God (if God exists). I'm sure God would be more than happy to let the planet earth create it's own natural disasters. Probably the only time God would want to get envolved is when he thinks it's time for him to make a point!

Boldnold

God makes His points by killing tens of thousands of innocent people, along with decimating entire economies, separating children from their parents, and ushering in the possibilities of disease and crime epidemics?

How loving.

-JC

[Myglarn]

Haha i gotta love your sig Churlant :)

[DRMIZER]

The Universe as we know it is 70 sextillion miles wide. All of that space so a single planet in a single galaxy in a single solar system can host the "Second Coming" in which God tells us who was naughty and who was nice just so we can feel better about our ultimate insignificance...Now that's beautiful.

[Churlant]

Now that's beautiful.

:bow:

Took me a while to find an estimate of the Universe's size, however ;) It's probably a bit low... but the point is made.

-JC

[Boldnold]

The people who are the current residents of this planet are the ones primarily responsible for taking care of it. It's possible that God (if God exists) may not be particularly happy with how the people of earth are taking care of his property, let alone all of the human discourse that is currently going on around the world today. Now maybe he's becoming a little perturbed with the human race and thought it's time to do something about it. Make a point maybe? A few big earthquakes, tital waves and a supervolcano and if that doen't work, maybe toss in an asteroid impact for good measure! Other than that, if you think otherwise, that's your business and it has no effect on my opinion, whatever that maybe!

Boldnold

[Churlant]

Make a point maybe?

Boldnold

...this is why my God will never be yours...

I can understand why people would want to believe in a God who causes death and pain. It is a defense against such psychological horrors if you have a source to rail against, or seek solace in, rather than trying to accept nature for what it is - heartless.

What I will NEVER understand is how these same people can simultaneously believe in a Caring, Merciful, Forgiving, Loving God while claiming his direct hand in events that are as opposed to these emotions as black is from white. Your God takes countless individuals who EMBODY these traits and he wipes them from the face of the Earth, leaving destruction and misery and doubt and fear behind, for no reasons above enjoyment, pride, or vengeance.

His motives are no better than those of a mass-murdering thug.

So pray to this evil, disgusting, flawed, sadistic, cruel wretch of a Thing if you must. However, your God deserves no prayers - he will certainly not receive mine.

-JC

[Boldnold]

...this is why my God will never be yours...

I can understand why people would want to believe in a God who causes death and pain. It is a defense against such psychological horrors if you have a source to rail against, or seek solace in, rather than trying to accept nature for what it is - heartless.

What I will NEVER understand is how these same people can simultaneously believe in a Caring, Merciful, Forgiving, Loving God while claiming his direct hand in events that are as opposed to these emotions as black is from white. Your God takes countless individuals who EMBODY these traits and he wipes them from the face of the Earth, leaving destruction and misery and doubt and fear behind, for no reasons above enjoyment, pride, or vengeance.

His motives are no better than those of a mass-murdering thug.

So pray to this evil, disgusting, flawed, sadistic, cruel wretch of a Thing if you must. However, your God deserves no prayers - he will certainly not receive mine.

-JC

Obviously if you believe in God (if God exists), then you probably believe in the biblical story of Noah and his infamous ark too. So in that regard, believing in God (if God exists) and the story of Noah go hand-in-hand with what my most recent post was describing. Obviously God (if God exists) was a little disturbed about what was going on with the earth's inhabitants at that time (nasty and evil as they were) and decided to take car of business by 'cleansing the earth' with a flood as the story goes. I'm sure you remember the 'It Rained for 40 Days and 40 Nights' story. Right? Right! So this evil, disgusting, flawed, sadistic, cruel wretch of a thing called God (if God exists) from time-to-time probably wants to make a point, especially down here on earth where the human race seems to forget about him on occaision. Actually you would be better off by 'Not' questioning God's motives, just accept them at face value. It works better that way I think.

Boldnold :)

[Churlant]

Obviously if you believe in God (if God exists), then you probably believe in the biblical story of Noah and his infamous ark too. cept them at face value. It works better that way I think.

Boldnold :)

Are you here? Are you reading this stuff? I'll spell it out then:

I believe in A God, I do not believe in the Bible as a Literal writing. This means I don't believe in much of what the Bible (specifically the OT) has to say about God's nature. I'd thought that was quite clear, but I suppose not. I don't believe in Noah's flood as it is written - though I do suspect there was a more localized flood off which the story is based.

I believe in a loving God. That image is 100% incompatible with the Biblical description of God and His actions - as well as your constant End Times Propoganda. There is no way to reconcile a being of Love with a being of Vengeance - so I choose Love. God can't have it both ways.

If I'm wrong? Fine. God can stay His murderous, vengeful self and I will lay no loyalty to Him, despite the consequences. Either way I win.

-JC

[Boldnold]

Are you here? Are you reading this stuff? I'll spell it out then:

I believe in A God, I do not believe in the Bible as a Literal writing. This means I don't believe in much of what the Bible (specifically the OT) has to say about God's nature. I'd thought that was quite clear, but I suppose not. I don't believe in Noah's flood as it is written - though I do suspect there was a more localized flood off which the story is based.

I believe in a loving God. That image is 100% incompatible with the Biblical description of God and His actions - as well as your constant End Times Propoganda. There is no way to reconcile a being of Love with a being of Vengeance - so I choose Love. God can't have it both ways.

If I'm wrong? Fine. God can stay His murderous, vengeful self and I will lay no loyalty to Him, despite the consequences. Either way I win.

-JC]

Tell that to God (if he exists), if he doesn't then you haven't anything to lose do ya?

Boldnold :)

[cpwill]

I believe in A God, I do not believe in the Bible as a Literal writing. This means I don't believe in much of what the Bible (specifically the OT) has to say about God's nature. I'd thought that was quite clear, but I suppose not. I don't believe in Noah's flood as it is written - though I do suspect there was a more localized flood off which the story is based.

therein lies the problem; is that the story need not be as unliteral as you imagine. ancient hebrew as a language is fairly difficult; it only has about 6,000 words, no future or past tense; and the only example of it we have is the Old Testament itself. words which don't appear often, then, are difficult to translate with complete accuracy. the word which is translated as "flood" appears only in the noah-narrative.

I believe in a loving God. That image is 100% incompatible with the Biblical description of God and His actions

perhaps you stopped reading before you got to the New Testament?

- as well as your constant End Times Propoganda. There is no way to reconcile a being of Love with a being of Vengeance - so I choose Love. God can't have it both ways.

then that is because you are mistranslating discipline for vengeance.


what has made you so angry, churlant?

[cpwill]

furthermore, (as pertains to the flood story); the narrative we have is actually two seperate stories woven together; each written hundreds and hundreds of years after the event.

[JD3]

Stuff happens. Good people suffer; bad people don't and vise versa. why? I'll have that at the top of my list of questions. ;)

[cpwill]

try Job.:)

[cpwill]

or, i think actually ecclesiastes might appeal to you more.

[bowerbird]

God and I came to an agreement long ago. We would keep talking if he accepted I would not go to church. (Nothing about organised religion but a LOT about hypocritical self-righteous, self satisfied you know whats). So, what does my heart tell me God meant?

Because so many people from so many religions where affected I think he meant for us to work together and find the common ground. To realise that ALL roads lead to God - they just take different pathways. To accept and respect the different pathway your fellow human being walks.

Peace and and end to (esp) religious war.

All roads lead................. Even an agnostic. The agnostic in me says plate tectonics which were overdue to happen sometime. __ iT happens - this time it happened in SE Asia.

[Boldnold]

God and I came to an agreement long ago. We would keep talking if he accepted I would not go to church. (Nothing about organised religion but a LOT about hypocritical self-righteous, self satisfied you know whats). So, what does my heart tell me God meant?

Because so many people from so many religions where affected I think he meant for us to work together and find the common ground. To realise that ALL roads lead to God - they just take different pathways. To accept and respect the different pathway your fellow human being walks.

Peace and and end to (esp) religious war.

All roads lead................. Even an agnostic. The agnostic in me says plate tectonics which were overdue to happen sometime. __ iT happens - this time it happened in SE Asia.

Maybe it was long overdue plate techtonics in action this time SE Asia, but if it happens again somewhere else with the same results and then it happens again in another location in the world with the same or similiar results and maybe you can toss in a supervolcano (Yellowstone for example) just for good measure. Then is it a coincidence, or is it an act of God (if God exists)? Sometimes the word 'coincidence' doesn't necessary explain it all, does it? Maybe there will come a time when science fails to explain a coincidence and then you're left with only one possible explanation.

Boldnold :)

[Myglarn]

I have always reasoned that if God is like a dictator demanding absolute obedience, then he doesn't get my aligience. Much like Saddam doesn't deserve my aligience.

[cpwill]

God and I came to an agreement long ago. We would keep talking if he accepted I would not go to church. (Nothing about organised religion but a LOT about hypocritical self-righteous, self satisfied you know whats).

this isn't meant to be insultive or even really directed towards you; it just reminded me.

my dad is a minister; and when people find out in conversation; they have a tendency to go wierd and try to explain themselves. one time i watched a man explain to my dad that he used to go to church, but stopped because it was full of hypocrites. my dad leaned over, patted him on the arm, and assured him that it wasn't full of hypocrites; there's always room for one more.:)

we are all hypocrites; and christianity is a religion designed to be lived out in fellowship.

So, what does my heart tell me God meant?

Because so many people from so many religions where affected I think he meant for us to work together and find the common ground. To realise that ALL roads lead to God - they just take different pathways. To accept and respect the different pathway your fellow human being walks.

Peace and and end to (esp) religious war.

All roads lead................. Even an agnostic. The agnostic in me says plate tectonics which were overdue to happen sometime. __ iT happens - this time it happened in SE Asia.

all paths lead to God?

so the men who slammed planes into the world trade center are currently enjoying their reward in paradise? :confused::o

[Myglarn]

Perhaps we are viewing the whole thing from the wrong perspective? Doesn't the bible say that the poor and persecuted inherits God's kingdom? Doesn't that mean perhaps that these poor people who died was brought out from their suffering on earth to enter heaven?

[cpwill]

:shrug: certainly one way of looking at it.

[Churlant]

]

Tell that to God (if he exists), if he doesn't then you haven't anything to lose do ya?

Boldnold :)

I have nothing to lose either way. If God exists, and He is Love, I will return that love. If He exists and He is as Evil as so many like to think, I will not follow Him - in which case I save my own soul in the process. See? I win.


perhaps you stopped reading before you got to the New Testament?

then that is because you are mistranslating discipline for vengeance.

what has made you so angry, churlant?


I'm not talking about the NT. The Bible as a whole is my evidence here. If it didn't include the OT, we might have a different problem.

I am mistranslating nothing. Do you know who else justifies violence against the innocent as "discipline"? Anyone who has ever physically abused a wife or child. It is the book which portrays God in this light, which is why I don't consider it correct. Once again - I will never understand how to hold a God up as Loving while claiming His responsibility for actions that are not.

My anger is directed more at the people who would say "God killed a bunch of babies to discipline everyone.. you know, tough love" than God. For me, I have no way of knowing whether God is Biblical, or whether the people who wrote the book were mostly full of crap. That sometimes happens and God may dislike Bible Literalists as much as I do.

-JC

[Senor Herberto]

god is good.

the universe is a university, not a courtroom.

people are agents of god made to teach and learn. we fulfill god's plan without even knowing it. it may be our fate to live and die in any of 1000 ways to teach us or others lessons they must learn. this wave became necessary to teach certain lessons to certain people.

it is likely that these lessons could have been learned in better easier less destructive ways, had the students been listening.

[::Major_Baker::]

You know plate tectonics is a very interesting concept......

[Churlant]

god is good.

the universe is a university, not a courtroom.

people are agents of god made to teach and learn. we fulfill god's plan without even knowing it. it may be our fate to live and die in any of 1000 ways to teach us or others lessons they must learn. this wave became necessary to teach certain lessons to certain people.

it is likely that these lessons could have been learned in better easier less destructive ways, had the students been listening.

So innocents be damned? Sorry... I refuse to accept God is operating from a "you gotta break a few eggs..." mentality.

If God wants to teach some people a lesson, I'm sure he has the power to do so without destroying the lives of others in the process. Such a magnificant display of power to punish the wicked at the price of murdering the innocent is unnecessary and quite evil.

-JC

[Senor Herberto]

"Such a magnificant display of power to punish the wicked at the price of murdering the innocent is unnecessary and quite evil."

it is no punishment. reread my statement. 'the universe is a university, not a courtroom'. god is not trying to force people to change their behavior, he is trying to get them to change their own behavior. it must come from the inside, or it is not truly love, it is fear.

[Draft Dodger]

I would not call it a freak of nature. Just nature at it's best or worst. I don't believe God had anything to do with it.

[Churlant]

I would not call it a freak of nature. Just nature at it's best or worst. I don't believe God had anything to do with it.

Draft... we agree for once :)

-JC

[Draft Dodger]

Draft... we agree for once :)

-JCAnd just when I thought I had you pegged. Go figure!

[Larani]

Well here is my take God has issues are with the soul of the man the choices he makes and the outcomes or ripples if you will that come from them. As for nature well nature is nature and thus it will do its thing like volcanoes and tidal waves even decomposing of my body when my spirit has left it and that is indeed a good thing.

Remember death is not all bad. Consider if you will if we never died, there wouldn't be a single place left to stand let alone likely there wouldn't be a single morsel of food left to eat. and if we didn't die we just be sitting here suffering endlessly from hunger without it releasing us from our hunger pains.

So did God cause the tidal wave NO, but I do believe he is indeed watching our reaction to it and paying close attention on how we freely choose to deal with it.

[cytwombly]

So did God cause the tidal wave NO, but I do believe he is indeed watching our reaction to it and paying close attention on how we freely choose to deal with it.

So you believe in a God who is only a moral judge? Not the God of the Bible who created the world? Your God seems rather impotent....and kind of mean and petty.

[Larani]

So you believe in a God who is only a moral judge? Not the God of the Bible who created the world? Your God seems rather impotent....and kind of mean and petty.

While I do believe God did indeed create Nature and the Universe, Terra Firma included, I don't believe he micro manages it there would be no need to its work perfectly without such management, and as far as my God being mean and petty no I don't think so, but I do know that we are.

[cytwombly]

I don't believe he micro manages it there would be no need to its work perfectly without such management

would this be deism? I don't quite understand why a God would not want to prevent loss of thousands of lives yet be more interested in how humans respond to that. No idea why God would take...pleasure is such a thing.

[Churlant]

would this be deism? I don't quite understand why a God would not want to prevent loss of thousands of lives yet be more interested in how humans respond to that. No idea why God would take...pleasure is such a thing.

God doesn't prevent the loss because that isn't His nature. Earthquakes are a part of the planet's natural rhythms... if He stepped in to stop OR start them, what would be the point of creating the physics which cause them?

I doubt very much he takes pleasure in the event... but I believe Larani is right in that He DOES watch very closely. Tragedies tend to bring out the best and worst in humanity... God would applaud the former and mourn the latter... but for most cases, it really isn't His part to interfere. That's our job.

-JC

[cytwombly]

God doesn't prevent the loss because that isn't His nature. Earthquakes are a part of the planet's natural rhythms... if He stepped in to stop OR start them, what would be the point of creating the physics which cause them?

I doubt very much he takes pleasure in the event... but I believe Larani is right in that He DOES watch very closely. Tragedies tend to bring out the best and worst in humanity... God would applaud the former and mourn the latter... but for most cases, it really isn't His part to interfere. That's our job.

-JC

If I left out the word "god" I would end up with same conclusion. And still think your God is somewhat vicious and self interested--why the judgement?
What I meant was the passage in the Bible, Job, where God says, I created the heavens and earth and oceans..of course I have power. You seem to have a different God than that of the Bible.

[Churlant]

If I left out the word "god" I would end up with same conclusion. And still think your God is somewhat vicious and self interested--why the judgement?
What I meant was the passage in the Bible, Job, where God says, I created the heavens and earth and oceans..of course I have power. You seem to have a different God than that of the Bible.

Yes, I do. Might want to refer below and other threads ;) Basically I reject the Bible as Literal Truth. The story of Job is a perfect example - no Loving God would force such suffering upon a person just to stroke his own ego.

So God is either Loving, or He is not. I choose Loving - for obvious reasons. That simply means the Bible is only a book... highly inspired, but also reflective of the passions and flaws of its human authors and the times in which they wrote it.

-JC

[cytwombly]

Yes, I do. Might want to refer below and other threads ;) Basically I reject the Bible as Literal Truth. The story of Job is a perfect example - no Loving God would force such suffering upon a person just to stroke his own ego.

So God is either Loving, or He is not. I choose Loving - for obvious reasons. That simply means the Bible is only a book... highly inspired, but also reflective of the passions and flaws of its human authors and the times in which they wrote it.

-JC

Still don't understand why your God is a moral Judge. To what end?

[Larani]

would this be deism? I don't quite understand why a God would not want to prevent loss of thousands of lives yet be more interested in how humans respond to that. No idea why God would take...pleasure is such a thing.

Diesm if you prefer to look at it that way OK all religions are indeed Deistic.

Why would God not want to prevent the Loss Why would God want to create the Loss? I contend he would do neither, and nature itself cares not either for it is what is is neither Good nor Evil. Is Gravity a evil thing that because when someone jumps from a building they fall and go splat on the pavement? Nay Gravity is not evil it just is remember is also what keeps all our feet firmly on the ground with the rest of creation.

Now the jumping may be evil or maybe the cause that preceded the jump like I will kill your wife and kids if you don't jump kind of thing, but as I said I think in those cases God is indeed watching, and it is us not nature itself that judges.

Case in point you offend me I can either A. Forgive you or B. Not forgive you in either case I do indeed think God will be watching my actions and my choices with regard to you for neither is nature at work but me living in nature along with you.

[cytwombly]

Diesm if you prefer to look at it that way OK all religions are indeed Deistic.



I do indeed think God will be watching my actions and my choices with regard to you for neither is nature at work but me living in nature along with you.

First, Christianity is not deism; it holds that God actively is in the world and has a purpose for our lives.
Second, in all seriousness, the concept of God as Judge escapes me: why would your God want to judge? What does he do with that judgement?

[Larani]

First, Christianity is not deism; it holds that God actively is in the world and has a purpose for our lives.

This of course is all a matter of degrees and semantics.


Second, in all seriousness, the concept of God as Judge escapes me: why would your God want to judge? What does he do with that judgement?

Refine the soul, Sounds like a good reason to me. if you want to take the impurities out of a particlur element do you not refine it?

[cytwombly]

This of course is all a matter of degrees and semantics.



Refine the soul, Sounds like a good reason to me. if you want to take the impurities out of a particlur element do you not refine it?

The difference is what things what they are. I never met a Christian who did not reject Deism and rightfully so; they are not compatable.

Second, your response to why God judges us is "to refine the soul." OK; as they say, end of discussion.

[Churlant]

Still don't understand why your God is a moral Judge. To what end?

I never said mine was :) It isn't really necessary to have a God pointing fingers and shouting "bad dog!"... most of us already know if we are moral individuals, or not - there are only degrees of denial in which we admit to being. As to the purpose of judging morality? There is a belief we hang around until we figure out how to live a decent life... I edge toward that faith.

-JC

[cytwombly]

I never said mine was :) It isn't really necessary to have a God pointing fingers and shouting "bad dog!"... most of us already know if we are moral individuals, or not - there are only degrees of denial in which we admit to being. As to the purpose of judging morality? There is a belief we hang around until we figure out how to live a decent life... I edge toward that faith.

-JC

I see. You believe in rebirth. Well, as the saying goes, religion is the great stopper of conversation.

[Churlant]

I see. You believe in rebirth. Well, as the saying goes, religion is the great stopper of conversation.

Judging by the number of posts the average religious thread receives, I think we can safely discard that saying. :lol:

-JC

[cytwombly]

Judging by the number of posts the average religious thread receives, I think we can safely discard that saying. :lol:

-JC

Not at all. I mean content, not verbiage. You finally just stated you believe in god, pretty traditional really. Why the fuss?

[Churlant]

Not at all. I mean content, not verbiage. You finally just stated you believe in god, pretty traditional really. Why the fuss?

The question is "why did God pick on them?" My believe in God doesn't mean I also believe He did, would, or has ever picked on anyone :) That's the fuss.

-JC

[cytwombly]

The question is "why did God pick on them?" My believe in God doesn't mean I also believe He did, would, or has ever picked on anyone :) That's the fuss.

-JC

Like I said, orthodox Christian explanation.

[Churlant]

Like I said, orthodox Christian explanation.

:shrug: If you want to think so. I'm kind of failing to see your larger point, however.

-JC

[cytwombly]

:shrug: If you want to think so. I'm kind of failing to see your larger point, however.

-JC

I think my larger point is that it is a waste of time to discuss philosophy with Christians; they only say, "this is my faith."

[Churlant]

I think my larger point is that it is a waste of time to discuss philosophy with Christians; they only say, "this is my faith."

Leaving aside the incorrect assumptions on your part from the statement above... why are you here if talking to us Christians is such a pain? ;)

-JC

[cytwombly]

Leaving aside the incorrect assumptions on your part from the statement above... why are you here if talking to us Christians is such a pain? ;)

-JC

I thought you were different. I thought maybe you wanted to debate ideas. I am not blaming you, just disappointed.

[Iheartsiobhon]

Well, I don't think so.
The Earth is a non-sentient entity. It can't feel anger or frustration, it's mostly silicon and oxygen, not neurons and impulses.

I sort of know what you mean though.

I didn't mean "she" was literally mad, or even that a "mother earth" really exists, just that the unnatural pressures we've been pushing on earth are forcing reactions that may not normally occur. That's just a consideration, but really, earthquakes and tsunamis are natural occurances and this one probably just happened, because of time.

[Churlant]

I thought you were different. I thought maybe you wanted to debate ideas. I am not blaming you, just disappointed.

Give me an idea and I'll see what I can do. If you involve God in the mix, half of what you get back is going to be 'faith'. You know it, I know it... so what else did you expect? This really isn't the thread for ideas anyway... it's got a rather simple premise: Either God caused the tsunami, or He did not.

I look at what either answer would say about His nature. As I've mentioned a few times many posts before, if God DID cause the tsunami, His possible motives would be inherently evil, and thus He is equally vile.

If he did NOT cause the tsunami, there isn't much else to discuss. As for wondering why he wouldn't STOP it... well again, why? Nature does its thing - that's how it works. If God came down and stopped all natural disasters and/or other problems, we'd be pretty bored.

-JC

[cytwombly]

If God came down and stopped all natural disasters and/or other problems, we'd be pretty bored.

-JC

Some people would have their children back. Yes, they'd be bored.

[jamesrage]

I think my larger point is that it is a waste of time to discuss philosophy with Christians; they only say, "this is my faith."

Then why post at all in what is clearly a religious themed thread?
Because the title of the thread is "why did God pick on them?

[cytwombly]

Then why post at all in what is clearly a religious themed thread?
Because the title of the thread is "why did God pick on them?

I see, you Christians own this thread.

[Churlant]

Some people would have their children back. Yes, they'd be bored.

I won't debate whether there would be less misery in the world if God decided to act - however if He did, we would never get anywhere. How concerned would we be with helping others if we didn't need to? Or loving others? How about safety?

Would you follow a child around their entire lives with a life-preserver just in case they fall in? Even if you could... even if you had the money and the time, would you?

We know from looking at governments alone that people who can determine their own destiny are more content with their lives. As Larani said... death does happen. Pain happens. Misery happens. There are depths of despair that no one should ever visit - and yet it happens.

To prevent them would make us happier in a storm... but the rest of our lives would be determined not by ourselves, but by God's direct interference.

Who wants to live like that?

-JC

[cytwombly]

if God decided to act - however if He did, we would never get anywhere.
-JC

Where exactly are you asserting we need to go?

[jamesrage]

I see, you Christians own this thread.

I beleave the question was aimed at anyone who holds religious beliefs.I simply commented on that.

[cpwill]

Still don't understand why your God is a moral Judge. To what end?

as God is the source of all things; He would naturally be the source of moral law; and hence, the standard.

[cytwombly]

I beleave the question was aimed at anyone who holds religious beliefs.I simply commented on that.

No it was not.

[Churlant]

Where exactly are you asserting we need to go?

Second star to the right, straight on till morning...

Quite literally, really. If we were made to just sit around remaining static, we'd still be walking everywhere - though that might be better for us ;)

I resist such popular phrases as "If God did everything for you, you'd never learn anything" because they are incorrect. If God did everything for us, we wouldn't want to learn anything. I believe there is a difference here - it is our desire to learn that makes it impossible for God to interfere.

As I said, we would be quite bored. Not in a sense that a tsunami is cool fun - but in the sense that learning to stop it for ourselves is just another piece in our evolution.

-JC

[cytwombly]

as God is the source of all things; He would naturally be the source of moral law; and hence, the standard.

Wasn't the question.

[::Major_Baker::]

I beleave the question was aimed at anyone who holds religious beliefs.I simply commented on that.

Well you are wrong it was not aimed at a specific crowd.

God was very, very disappointed with the lives of these people;
God had nothing to do with the tsunami wave because He stopped punishing people with curses centuries ago; 0 0%
God never did perform curses upon people as "reported" in the bible; 1
This wave was a freak of nature and had no religious significance or parallel;
God chose to use this wave as a lesson to humanity (explain below);
God works in mystrerious ways;
God never did punish people. It's all a bunch of whooey;
Other: explained below.

[cytwombly]

another piece in our evolution.

-JC

Now we're getting somewhere: You believe that evolution has a purpose. And that is God's purpose. Again, to what end?

[Churlant]

Now we're getting somewhere: You believe that evolution has a purpose. And that is God's purpose. Again, to what end?

We will become Gods, of course. Perhaps create our own realities which we will nurture to maturity.

From a purely faithful standpoint - all parents want their children to transcend themselves. It's a cliche, but true. If the Universe is God's creation, one in which he placed all necessary physics and materials for the eventual formation of life, He would obviously wish that life to reach as high and as far as possible, otherwise why would we be here? For the Rapture? Hardly ;)

What purpose would there be for us to reach if God did our reaching for us?

-JC

[cytwombly]

What purpose would there be for us to reach if God did our reaching for us?
-JC

God creates universe in which we are all happy and have no desires; and are totally not bored. What is hard to imagine in this fantasy?

[Churlant]

God creates universe in which we are all happy and have no desires; and are totally not bored. What is hard to imagine in this fantasy?

Can you honestly imagine having no desire, yet being happy? The greatest happiness in my life just happens to be my greatest desire - my wife, of course.

-JC

[cytwombly]

Can you honestly imagine having no desire, yet being happy? The greatest happiness in my life just happens to be my greatest desire - my wife, of course.

-JC

I guess if God is whatever you say he(whatever) is then anything can follow.
So yes, not the slightest issue for me to say God can make people happy without desire. I mean, if one believes God is more powerful than a dog's bite.

[jamesrage]

Well you are wrong it was not aimed at a specific crowd.

I would have to say that you are wrong on this.It is kind of hard to ask for an honest opinion on "why did God pick on them" if that individual doesn't even in God.It is like asking someone what brand of cell phones they liked using and what brand they didn't like using,I could not answer that question honestly because I do not use nor have I ever bought a cell phone in my life.I would not call the many diverse religions out there specific.

[::Major_Baker::]

I would have to say that you are wrong on this.It is kind of hard to ask for an honest opinion on "why did God pick on them" if that individual doesn't even in God.It is like asking someone what brand of cell phones they liked using and what brand they didn't like using,I could not answer that question honestly because I do not use nor have I ever bought a cell phone in my life.I would not call the many diverse religions out there specific.
The answer is quite easy for me Jamesrage: "He didn't"

[Redratio1]

My avatar is scarier than Churlant's

Oh, and I think that when a tree fall on your car you don't say, "Gee that was an act of God," because trees fall down all the time. Thats what they do when they get old. In geological time tsunamis happen frequently on this planet. So, just because it hit a densly populated area of the world in the early 21th century doesn't mean it was any more an act of God than a tree falling on your car. When Krakatowa blew up the tsunamis killed 30000 people, and the area was much less populated. There was one in Japan that killed 26,000 in the 16th century. And when there was no one around -- well to be sure there were tsunamis then.

Basically God did not need to do anything different he has been for the last 4 billion years. Which was let the natural forces do their work.

[Churlant]

I guess if God is whatever you say he(whatever) is then anything can follow.
So yes, not the slightest issue for me to say God can make people happy without desire. I mean, if one believes God is more powerful than a dog's bite.

Well we could imagine that it would be just as simple not to have existence at all, then.

God would also be quite bored if He created us all to be happy and without desire.

But the answer may be more simple - we are as we are. I don't buy the Garden of Eden and I don't believe God "made us in His image". We are a product of the Universe in which we live. We have evolved this way and God had no more idea how we would/will turn out than we do. For God to suddenly snap his fingers and make us happy would once again be against the nature of His Universe.

-JC

[Churlant]

My avatar is scarier than Churlant's
.

Only because it moves!

-JC

[cytwombly]

"God would also be quite bored if He created us all to be happy and without desire."

This is where my difficulty lays: You have an anthropomorphic view of God.
God seems kind of a jerk in the way you describe him. Like a friend who says, yeah I could have helped you in that fight, but that would be boring, I liked watching you get clubbed over the head with a pipe.

[Churlant]

"God would also be quite bored if He created us all to be happy and without desire."

This is where my difficulty lays: You have an anthropomorpic view of God.
God seems kind of a jerk in the way you describe it. Like a friend who says, yeah I could have helped you in that fight, but that would be boring.

Small picture, larger picture... 'bored' isn't really the correct term, but my vocabulary is limited. It's the best I've got :p God would get about as much enjoyment out of life if it were without evolution as we would.

I've already mentioned that adversity in general serves a purpose of stepping up the ladder of evolution. Whether you're talking about a tsunami or a bar fight, the concept remains the same. However, if your friend (or Friend) were capable of not just helping - but STOPPING - the fight, we'd be right back to where we started. That Friend would simply be impeding your personal evolution just as God would be impeding our species' evolution by preventing natural disasters.

Now, if you ask whether God merely helps us along, rather than pushing or dragging us around... hm.. that's another thread ;)

-JC

[Churlant]

I liked watching you get clubbed over the head with a pipe.

On another note - I want to thank you for a genuinely interesting set of posts. It doesn't happen often in these threads... I'd have sent this via PM, or Email, but you're either intensely private, or intensely paranoid ;)

-JC

...a joke, of course...

[Boldnold]

God (if God exists) can probably be or look like whatever he wants if he chooses to. Our humble questions about God (if God exists) will always stay unanswered, unless God (if God exists) wants to answer them. So the guessing game about God (if God exists) will go on, and on, and on, until there is no one left to ask them! Right now your guess about God (if God exists) is as good as mine. Keep on Trucking.

Boldnold

[jamesrage]

The answer is quite easy for me Jamesrage: "He didn't"

How can you answer that question honestly if you have no belief in God?

[::Major_Baker::]

How can you answer that question honestly if you have no belief in God?
I am not sure about the God thing, I'm an agnostic.
However, I do believe in science, which includes plate tectonics, which in turn generates the answer rather easily.

[cytwombly]

[QUOTE=Churlant]
However, if your friend (or Friend) were capable of not just helping - but STOPPING - the fight, we'd be right back to where we started. That Friend would simply be impeding your personal evolution just as God would be impeding our species' evolution by preventing natural disasters.

-JC[/QUOTE

If my "friend" stood by while I got wacked in head with a lead pipe I would file criminal charges against him as well; end of friendship of course.

[cytwombly]

On another note - I want to thank you for a genuinely interesting set of posts. It doesn't happen often in these threads... I'd have sent this via PM, or Email, but you're either intensely private, or intensely paranoid ;)

-JC

...a joke, of course...

Nothing personal. I never engage the private mail because usually the comments are insults or simply belong on the public board.

[jamesrage]

I am not sure about the God thing, I'm an agnostic.
However, I do believe in science, which includes plate tectonics, which in turn generates the answer rather easily.
.

Well I suppose if if you beleave in God or some supream being then I guess you did answer the question honestly.

[Boldnold]

Consideringt the recent destructrion of the earth via the tsunami wave, where was God?

As we read in many of the books of the bible, God reigns his wrath and destruction upon the earth with floods and plagues from time to time including killing the first born of certain people. He rained down fire and brimstone on an entire city. In all these instances God was "punishing" for the sins of the people.

What did these 150,000 plus people do to offend God OR: Choose your best guess. . . . . . . . .

Maybe they broke the lease agreement (10 Commandments) to many times and God (if God exists) got pissed off and decided to take some action (9.0 mag earthquake & some big titalwaves). Hey, your guess is as good as mind!

Boldnold :)