What Reason is there for the Existence of God?

[Churlant]

Since we don't like other questions, let's try this one...

Spun from another thread is the assumption that without God, there is no reason for this planet and the people who inhabit it.

Asked another way, however, is the question of why God would exist in the first place? Before creation, there was nothing but God, but why? Ours is an existence for and from God, but His is an existence based on what?

An infinite God? What for?

-JC

[Duo_Maxwell]

Impatience and Irrationality.

Impatience in waiting for answers, irrationality, well, I'll admit my belief in a "god" is completely irrational with nothing to back it up. But then again, my belief is very unorthodox and revolves around a very lassie fair being.

[NiteGuy]

Since we don't like other questions, let's try this one...

Spun from another thread is the assumption that without God, there is no reason for this planet and the people who inhabit it.

Asked another way, however, is the question of why God would exist in the first place? Before creation, there was nothing but God, but why? Ours is an existence for and from God, but His is an existence based on what?

An infinite God? What for?

That's been my question for ages, Churlant. Or, at least, a variation of it. According to Christians, especially those trying to pass off "Creationism" or "Intelligent Design" as valid scientific theories, they say that everything in the universe had to be designed and created by someone with forethought. It could not have "just happened".

Ok. So then, where did God come from? Who (or what) created Him? If the universe could not have "always existed" without some sort of help, either could "God".

And even if He did, you're right. What the heck was he doing just lolling around for billions of years, totally in the dark, before he came up with the idea of light, and planets, and animals and humans?

[Duo_Maxwell]

NiteGuy, so we agree that a orthodox god makes absolutely no sense?

[Boldnold]

No one was around for the 'creation' (if there was a creation) except the creator (if there was a creator). No one can give an explanation for the 'creation' except the 'creator' (if there is a creator). Only you as a person can imagine, dream or theorize about the 'creation and/or about the 'creator'. Probably all of your questions about the 'creation' or the 'creator' will be possibly be answered at the moment of your passing. Until then, keep guessing.

Boldnold

[Churlant]

All I know is if it's a fallacy to consider the Universe as infinite because there "must" be a "cause" according to some scientific basis or other... the logic of which is absurd if you consider what we still don't know.

Still... if we assume this is solid logic, then we must ask what the "cause" of God is? Not even "where did God come from" but instead "Why God?"

This gets around an infinite God assumption as well... so fine, God was always there - but why? What for? What cause?

Honestly it's a ridiculous question posed by people who can't understand the concept of infinite and refuse to believe the most basic lesson taught by our parents: Just Because.

I just don't think you get it both ways.

Either life, the universe, and everything is here from God, in which case the defense of "something must have caused the Universe, God is the most logical answer". In which case you must answer what cause there is for God as "no cause" isn't logical at all in this context.

OR we assume life, the universe, and everything has always been. It may expand, it may contract, it may repeat. The reptition of which is infinite and the cause of which is also infinite quantum catalysts from other universal realities.

I refer everyone to Schroeder's Cat.... God rest his soul.. or maybe not ;)


-JC

[Churlant]

No one was around for the 'creation' (if there was a creation) except the creator (if there was a creator). No one can give an explanation for the 'creation' except the 'creator' (if there is a creator). Only you as a person can imagine, dream or theorize about the 'creation and/or about the 'creator'. Probably all of your questions about the 'creation' or the 'creator' will be possibly be answered at the moment of your passing. Until then, keep guessing.

Boldnold

Come on now. I once had no idea how to drive... that doesn't mean I didn't strive to learn, and now it's my only convenient way to work.

Those who ignore a question because of an assumed impossibility don't get very far. The point is the quest, not the answer - because while the answer often changes, the search is eternal.

What's the point otherwise? Besides video games, that is...

-JC

[Boldnold]

Those of us who think we know the answers to life's greatest questions (The creation?/creator?), you still don't know for sure. There is no verifiable proof offered. No verifiable proof given. Until the creator (if there is a creator) decides to make an appearance for the whole living world to see and possibly hear, then and until then, your guess is as good as mine! The simpliest answer given is for those who believe; 'Keep The Faith'. For those who of you who don't??? It really doesn't matter for you I guess.

Boldnold

[JoeR]

Personally I'd find the idea like the Force more likely than a God. What I mean by this is that there is a force that runs throughout the universe and binds it together and whatnot, but it is not an entity, it is just some sort of energy. Isn't the concept of chi, karma, and other things of that nature in this same vein?

[cytwombly]

Come on now. I once had no idea how to drive... that doesn't mean I didn't strive to learn, and now it's my only convenient way to work.

Those who ignore a question because of an assumed impossibility don't get very far. The point is the quest, not the answer - because while the answer often changes, the search is eternal.

What's the point otherwise? Besides video games, that is...

-JC

A professor of philosophy once said in lecture that there are really only a few ideas of God that anybody has ever had.
St. Thomas Aquinas said that either the world is not created by God(Aristotle's view) or that is was created by God(view of the Church.)
St. Thomas argued that reason does not prove the world was created, only by faith--by which he means authority of the Catholic Church.
The idea that we can or should not discuss the matter for ourselves seems childish or submitting ourselves to the authority of the church.
To my mind, those who keep saying we need to keep an open-skeptical-mind are merely being indecisive: what Sartre called bad faith.

[cpwill]

:lol: what a backwards question.

i will answer it as soon as you can answer mine:

"where does infinity begin?"

[eugene40]

easy answer..... at the very moment that we had intellectual thought. And could articulate a communication between two or more individuals. Some jerk asked the head of their tirbe,,, either the best warrior or the one that seemed to understand the most things.... some jerk said what is that big yellow thing in the sky and why does it go away for a while and then seem to come back.... Then the guy thought for a little bit... and said there is a large man that controls everything that holds it up,, when he gets tired like we all do he takes the light down. Then their was an audible gasp throughout the whole tribe And the leader thought for a little more.,,,, and said hey that must of been a pretty good idea... I can get these guys to do whatever I want by telling them that. Then that is where the reason for a god to have to exist. And it flourished in the time where things weren't explainable. And the people that knew the secret that there really was no man holding up the big light in the sky.... so that they may control the people that didn't know that. And as we grew and evolved some people figured out that there is no man holding the light.... and some people still think that there is one.... tada!!!!

[Boldnold]

Looks like the big yellow light in the sky is still burning. I bet the big man's arm is getting pretty tired by now holding it up, don't you think?

Boldnold

[cpwill]

All I know is if it's a fallacy to consider the Universe as infinite because there "must" be a "cause" according to some scientific basis or other... the logic of which is absurd if you consider what we still don't know.

:confused::sorry: but steady state theory has now been disproven to the point where it's no longer even a debate within the scientific community. furthermore, as i articulated in the other thread; it is impossible for time to be infinite.

Still... if we assume this is solid logic, then we must ask what the "cause" of God is? Not even "where did God come from" but instead "Why God?"

the law of causality states that all things that come into being have a cause. as God would definitionally have to exist independent of time; he is infinite, and therefore never came into being; thus, he could not have a "cause"

This gets around an infinite God assumption as well... so fine, God was always there - but why? What for? What cause?

:lol: your question assumes a larger reality than God; which is also, by definition, impossible. He IS the reason :)

I just don't think you get it both ways.

unless, of course, we resort to science and logic:)

Either life, the universe, and everything is here from God, in which case the defense of "something must have caused the Universe, God is the most logical answer". In which case you must answer what cause there is for God as "no cause" isn't logical at all in this context.

yes it is; the universe has a cause only because it is not infinite. as God existed prior to time (bad wordage; but the only really available), he is by definition infinite = without any beginning = no cause is possible.

OR we assume life, the universe, and everything has always been. It may expand, it may contract, it may repeat. The reptition of which is infinite and the cause of which is also infinite quantum catalysts from other universal realities.

as i pointed out earlier, an infinite amount of time is impossible.

[cpwill]

easy answer..... at the very moment that we had intellectual thought. And could articulate a communication between two or more individuals. Some jerk asked the head of their tirbe,,, either the best warrior or the one that seemed to understand the most things.... some jerk said what is that big yellow thing in the sky and why does it go away for a while and then seem to come back.... Then the guy thought for a little bit... and said there is a large man that controls everything that holds it up,, when he gets tired like we all do he takes the light down. Then their was an audible gasp throughout the whole tribe And the leader thought for a little more.,,,, and said hey that must of been a pretty good idea... I can get these guys to do whatever I want by telling them that. Then that is where the reason for a god to have to exist. And it flourished in the time where things weren't explainable. And the people that knew the secret that there really was no man holding up the big light in the sky.... so that they may control the people that didn't know that. And as we grew and evolved some people figured out that there is no man holding the light.... and some people still think that there is one.... tada!!!!

:rolleyes: so what are the odds that not only would every single tribe leader come up with this same trick; but that it would continue to work in cases where the reason for being doesn't exist; that it would fufill a strange hunger that seems inherent in mankind; and that in the modern era scientists would still fall for it; though it at first seem to them repugnant?

[Chidi]

:rolleyes: so what are the odds that not only would every single tribe leader come up with this same trick; but that it would continue to work in cases where the reason for being doesn't exist; that it would fufill a strange hunger that seems inherent in mankind; and that in the modern era scientists would still fall for it; though it at first seem to them repugnant?

The odds are very high that this would happen at some stage humans were very stupid so they needed to know why things happened so they just figured that there was some other force at work that they could not see so they called these forces gods. Now we know from the rest of the Animal world that things such as migration paths and natural instincts are passed from generation to generation not only from word of mouth but is stored somewhere in the minds also, this in turn gives a very obvious reason why most people are inclined to have that "hunger" and need for fulfillment by something other than their own (by this I mean the world as a whole as I do not see any difference between us and the reast of the animal world) existance.

So thousands of years pass and people start to figure certain things out like lets say maths and so on and they need more beleivable Gods and more complicated methods of telling stories about these Gods so that it would be harder to disprove, eventually their are scientific explainations for all sorts of different things and people begin to snap out of this passed down condition, Hense the weakening of the powers of the Churches in most Country's.

[cpwill]

The odds are very high that this would happen at some stage humans were very stupid so they needed to know why things happened so they just figured that there was some other force at work that they could not see so they called these forces gods.

if that were the source, then gods would have just morphed into science.

Now we know from the rest of the Animal world that things such as migration paths and natural instincts are passed from generation to generation not only from word of mouth but is stored somewhere in the minds also, this in turn gives a very obvious reason why most people are inclined to have that "hunger" and need for fulfillment by something other than their own (by this I mean the world as a whole as I do not see any difference between us and the reast of the animal world) existance.

okay, so the hunger for spirituality is genetic and instinctual. doesn't this argue my point?

So thousands of years pass and people start to figure certain things out like lets say maths and so on and they need more beleivable Gods and more complicated methods of telling stories about these Gods so that it would be harder to disprove, eventually their are scientific explainations for all sorts of different things and people begin to snap out of this passed down condition, Hense the weakening of the powers of the Churches in most Country's.

actually the weakining of the power of the christian church in state affairs was a result of the reformation and the resulting religious wars; which served to deligitimize the idea of the complete blending of politics and theology.

[Chidi]

okay, so the hunger for spirituality is genetic and instinctual. doesn't this argue my point?

No because it was not there from the start it sprouted out of confusion and insecurity which is why it has never had anything but flimsy arguments for and against it.

[cpwill]

:lol:

A: religion has some pretty powerful arguments for it; read the "proof of God' thread if you wish to see some of them.
B: emotional insecurity isn't the source of instinct and genetics; instinct and genetics are the source of emotional insecurity.

[Senor Herberto]

god is the source of life and existance. god is the conscious living energy that all things in this world are made of. you are made of god. your consciousness is part of god's consciousness.

[Chidi]

If that is the case it is God who murders, rapes, beats, and robs people.

[Albert]

That would depend on which God you are speaking of. The jealous and angry god who would have no gods before me or the God who was before all Gods?

I believe most psychologists have concluded that humans have a need to understand our existence and express it in some way. If you consider the historical anthropology of religion, worship seemed to be focused on this understanding.

Jump forward and you can detect a change from understanding existence to perfecting existence, forming the existence where the lamb will lay down with the lion.

If we accept that both are driven by the same need, the question is, by what happy accident are we wired this way?

[cytwombly]

:
B: emotional insecurity isn't the source of instinct and genetics; instinct and genetics are the source of emotional insecurity.

If there was a biological necessity to believing in God, why would not every human on the planet "worship" exactly the same God?
Why doesn't a Hindu in India believe that Jesus is the only incarnation of God?

[cytwombly]

:lol: what a backwards question.

i will answer it as soon as you can answer mine:

"where does infinity begin?"

The question was "what reason is there for the existence of god?" Please tell me what relevance your question has in response; I see none.

[Albert]

If there was a biological necessity to believing in God, why would not every human on the planet "worship" exactly the same God?
Why doesn't a Hindu in India believe that Jesus is the only incarnation of God?
Needs can be expressed in different ways.

[cytwombly]

Needs can be expressed in different ways.

Exactly my point. It proves nothing about the existence of God. When I was a child I fantasized that I could fly--lot's of kids have that fantasy, and quite common in dreams.
Evidence of desire does not prove the object(flying, eg) exists or is possible.

[Albert]

Exactly my point. It proves nothing about the existence of God. When I was a child I fantasized that I could fly--lot's of kids have that fantasy, and quite a common in dreams.
Evidence of desire does not prove the object(flying, eg) exists or is possible.
I believe you are correct, but why is it that all people, even athiests seem to have a need to understand our existance? It would seem from an evolutional standpoint to be counter productive. So the question remains is this need a happy accident or was it purposeful, part of some greater design?

[cytwombly]

I believe you are correct, but why is it that all people, even athiests seem to have a need to understand our existance? It would seem from an evolutional standpoint to be counter productive. So the question remains is this need a happy accident or was it purposeful, part of some greater design?

Did I miss something? Was I supposed to assent to the idea that curious about universe equals believing in the existence of God? Please explain.

[Albert]

Did I miss something? Was I supposed to assent to the idea that curious about universe equals believing in the existence of God? Please explain.
No, not all. I’m sorry to have confused you but I’m not really debating your position. I’m just suggesting that the core of this question is how this need got there. I believe that people chose what to believe.

[cytwombly]

No, not all. I’m sorry to have confused you but I’m not really debating your position. I’m just suggesting that the core of this question is how this need got there. I believe that people chose what to believe.

OK. You wanted to simply say that all is good, things are cool. No need to continue then.

[Churlant]

If we accept that both are driven by the same need, the question is, by what happy accident are we wired this way?

Good question... perhaps the answer is evolution itself?

If you think about it, an inherent need to discover the Universe or God, or both, forces us to reach beyond our current standing. If we didn't really care how lightning came from or how it worked, would we ever discover electricity? If we didn't wonder and seek to understand fire and how to create it, would we be able to wield it today? The drive to understand, whether that is an understanding of our existence or simply the understanding of how to drive a car, is built in to our capacity for growth and species evolution.

The questions of who we are and why we're here don't necessarily have to become religious - people just make them that way, whether by design (appeal to power/authority) or by mistake (superstition). We now know much about sciences such as biology, chemistry, geology... and we DO know how we got here physically. Without the inspiration to obtain the answer, we would never look for it.

How's that?

-JC

[cytwombly]

How's that?

-JC

As the great atheist Aristotle said, "All men by nature desire to know."

I wish we were discussing the original question that started the thread.

[Albert]

Good question... perhaps the answer is evolution itself?

If you think about it, an inherent need to discover the Universe or God, or both, forces us to reach beyond our current standing. If we didn't really care how lightning came from or how it worked, would we ever discover electricity? If we didn't wonder and seek to understand fire and how to create it, would we be able to wield it today? The drive to understand, whether that is an understanding of our existence or simply the understanding of how to drive a car, is built in to our capacity for growth and species evolution.

The questions of who we are and why we're here don't necessarily have to become religious - people just make them that way, whether by design (appeal to power/authority) or by mistake (superstition). We now know much about sciences such as biology, chemistry, geology... and we DO know how we got here physically. Without the inspiration to obtain the answer, we would never look for it.

How's that?

-JC
I can’t argue with what you have said I will only add that in the Gnostic Writings one sect of Christianity, the Sepias believed that the pursuit of knowledge and understanding was the pursuit of the divine.

[Churlant]

As the great atheist Aristotle said, "All men by nature desire to know."

I wish we were discussing the original question that started the thread.

So do I... I did start it, after all ;) But then, threads by their nature evolve in just this way. One rarely ends as it begins.

"All threads by nature end up debates over abortion, same-sex marriage, or God in general..."

:D :cool: :flowers:


-JC

[Churlant]

I can’t argue with what you have said I will only add that in the Gnostic Writings one sect of Christianity, the Sepias believed that the pursuit of knowledge and understanding was the pursuit of the divine.

Yes... and it is the pursuit of our own divinity. How far to the heights of knowledge do you go before you can call yourself a God?

You know we can actually stop light? We've got people creating DNA from scratch. We have eyes that see to the beginning of the Universe.

If that isn't approaching Godliness, I'm not sure what else you'd call it.

-JC

[cytwombly]

So do I... I did start it, after all ;) But then, threads by their nature evolve in just this way. One rarely ends as it begins.

"All threads by nature end up debates over abortion, same-sex marriage, or God in general..."

:D :cool: :flowers:


-JC

Allow me to reply to the original question then. As a youth I was taught that the world was created by God. Who created God, I asked. God is self created; God always existed. Then why even talk about "creation" if you can't use the logic of cause for God? "Shut up" is usually how that was answered.
And just as bad, some respond with "well different people think different things," as if that is an answer rather than a distraction.

[Albert]

Yes... and it is the pursuit of our own divinity. How far to the heights of knowledge do you go before you can call yourself a God?

You know we can actually stop light? We've got people creating DNA from scratch. We have eyes that see to the beginning of the Universe.

If that isn't approaching Godliness, I'm not sure what else you'd call it.

-JC
Which is where the “God created man in his image and likeness” becomes troublesome. This draws me to my second observation that most primitive religions evolved to take on another role, to perfect existence either by forming laws or challenging preconceived notions.

If you take one central Christian concept, original sin, in context with accepted beliefs at the time of Jesus, what Jesus was doing was changing the rules completely. In these days all afflictions were based in sin, sin was inevitable, caused by a flaw in our human make up. Jesus said, in effect that sins were products of personal choice and inflictions were not God’s punishment for sin. No wonder they nailed him to a tree. How else could the powers that be explain all the bad stuff?

As we become more powerful perhaps what will separate the angels and demons will be our motivations.

[Churlant]

Allow me to reply to the original question then. As a youth I was taught that the world was created by God. Who created God, I asked. God is self created; God always existed. Then why even talk about "creation" if you can't use the logic of cause for God? "Shut up" is usually how that was answered.
And just as bad, some respond with "well different people think different things," as if that is an answer rather than a distraction.

The logic of an infinite God is a much better alternative than one which popped into existence. Likewise the logic of an infinite Multiverse is an alternative to creation by a God.

From our perspectives, infinite is not comfortable. There is no beginning and no end... that just doesn't jive well with everything we experience in our lives. A being working out of the 4th dimension, however, would experience today, tomorrow, yesterday, and next week as one moment - just as we occupy height, depth, and width in one place ;)

-JC

[Churlant]

As we become more powerful perhaps what will separate the angels and demons will be our motivations.

Too true :) I've always hated to admit it, but our science matures faster than we do, and always has. Will it always? God I hope not...

-JC

[cytwombly]

The logic of an infinite God is a much better alternative than one which popped into existence. Likewise the logic of an infinite Multiverse is an alternative to creation by a God.

From our perspectives, infinite is not comfortable. There is no beginning and no end... that just doesn't jive well with everything we experience in our lives. A being working out of the 4th dimension, however, would experience today, tomorrow, yesterday, and next week as one moment - just as we occupy height, depth, and width in one place ;)

-JC

What objection do you have to the answer that God does not exist? And what is a "multiverse?"
What problem do you have with the simple assertion that the universe always existed, therefore no explanation of why is necessary?

[Churlant]

What objection do you have to the answer that God does not exist? And what is a "multiverse?"
What problem do you have with the simple assertion that the universe always existed, therefore no explanation of why is necessary?

"Multiverse" is just a more convenient term than "multiple universes". It is a current theory that there are an infinite number of universes alternative to our own. An expansion of that indicates that vibrations within one are catalysts for the creation of others - ie the Big Bang.

I have no objection to the answer that no God exists.
I have no problem with the assertion that the Universe always existed.

I believe #2, with #1 my faith is based less on my own conclusions than the wisdom of another individual. Without her inspirations, I would probably be an atheist.

The way to reconcile an infinite universe with God is to have an infinite God, of course. No beginning... no end.

-JC

[cytwombly]

"Multiverse" is just a more convenient term than "multiple universes". It is a current theory that there are an infinite number of universes alternative to our own. An expansion of that indicates that vibrations within one are catalysts for the creation of others - ie the Big Bang.

I have no objection to the answer that no God exists.
I have no problem with the assertion that the Universe always existed.

I believe #2, with #1 my faith is based less on my own conclusions than the wisdom of another individual. Without her inspirations, I would probably be an atheist.

The way to reconcile an infinite universe with God is to have an infinite God, of course. No beginning... no end.

-JC

No offence, but this whole thread could have been answered "I believe in God."

[Churlant]

No offence, but this whole thread could have been answered "I believe in God."

Not much of an answer ;) I personally can't answer the question, beyond a simple article of 'faith'. Others can, or have said as much, so I thought it would be interesting to hear them.

-JC

[cytwombly]

Not much of an answer ;) I personally can't answer the question, beyond a simple article of 'faith'. Others can, or have said as much, so I thought it would be interesting to hear them.

-JC

So your answer to the question, "what is the reason for God," is that you have faith.

[Churlant]

So your answer to the question, "what is the reason for God," is that you have faith.

Ah.. I see the problem..

The question was spun from another thread and has a larger context. A common question to ask is "if there wasn't a God, what would be the point of existence?" So I simply thought it would be interesting to flip it around.

The question is also not directed at me personally ;) The reason for God to ME is Faith. The reason for God to someone else may be entirely different.

-JC

[cytwombly]

Ah.. I see the problem..

The question was spun from another thread and has a larger context. A common question to ask is "if there wasn't a God, what would be the point of existence?" So I simply thought it would be interesting to flip it around.

The question is also not directed at me personally ;) The reason for God to ME is Faith. The reason for God to someone else may be entirely different.

-JC

I have never heard of one. Nor have I seen one here.

[Churlant]

I have never heard of one. Nor have I seen one here.

Nor I... but I DID put it out there for someone to try ;)

-JC

[cytwombly]

Nor I... but I DID put it out there for someone to try ;)

-JC

I guess.

[cpwill]

If there was a biological necessity to believing in God, why would not every human on the planet "worship" exactly the same God?
Why doesn't a Hindu in India believe that Jesus is the only incarnation of God?

human's need is pretty basic and blunt, really it's just a simple inherent desire; the details require God's direct intervention; what we call "revelation".

[cpwill]

The question was "what reason is there for the existence of god?" Please tell me what relevance your question has in response; I see none.

in order to have a reason, a cause, something must come to be; as God is infinite, he can have no cause, and definitionally no reason: in effect, you are asking people to identify and describe the beginnig of infinity:)

[cytwombly]

human's need is pretty basic and blunt, really it's just a simple inherent desire; the details require God's direct intervention; what we call "revelation".

No answer to my question.

[cytwombly]

in order to have a reason, a cause, something must come to be; as God is infinite, he can have no cause, and definitionally no reason: in effect, you are asking people to identify and describe the beginnig of infinity:)

No. I am saying the universe exists just fine without God. If one is going to use the logic of cause, why not use it with God himself: that was the original question posed on this thread(I thought so).

[cpwill]

No answer to my question.

alright; i'll be more specific: every human has that need, however, each human has been exposed to or recieved differing degrees of revelation. therein; whereas the motive remains the same; the methods will diverge accordingly.

No. I am saying the universe exists just fine without God.

as your question presupposes God's existance (what is the reason for God presupposes God just as "why does this rock fall when dropped" pressupposes a rock); this is impossible.

[cytwombly]

[QUOTE=cpwill
as your question presupposes God's existance (what is the reason for God presupposes God just as "why does this rock fall when dropped" pressupposes a rock); this is impossible.[/QUOTE]



No, I never said I believe God exists. I have never understood why some people think the universe is explained by saying God created it, but refuse to discuss the question of how did God get created.

[cpwill]

ah, well, in order to have a reason/cause: God would have to exist.

[Chidi]

Cpwill thats pure nonsense, let's talk about the ancient gods that people worshiped I mean even they had explanaitions as to how they came about, the fact of the matter is that the only reason that you do not KNOW how your god was created is because no christian has ever given you an explaination as it is just another method of control, "If you can't prove me wrong I must be right". I'm not sure wether you beleive in evolution or not but if you don't then you might tell me why if it never happened does it have reason/cause to back it up.

[cpwill]

oh, then what you are really asking is "What is the Reason for the Concept of God". and christianity's got a bit more positive evidence on it's side than simply having to resort to the "if you can't prove it it isn't true"

[Chidi]

Such as?

[cytwombly]

Such as?

Notice that his answer to "what is the reason for God's existence" is "God exists." Say no more! as Monty Python would say.

[Redratio1]

Humans need a creation story. It was the only way we could cope with the logical paradox of existing out of nothing. It escapes sane understanding of our own lives of being born, living, and dying. Starting from nothingness, existing, and then returning to nothingness. Non-existence at the survival level is projected upwards to the non-existence of the universe.

Thats why a God is necessary. Otherwise who cold comprehend such a idea of existence verses non-existence.

[cytwombly]

Humans need a creation story. It was the only way we could cope with the logical paradox of existing out of nothing. It escapes sane understanding of our own lives of being born, living, and dying. Starting from nothingness, existing, and then returning to nothingness. Non-existence at the survival level is projected upwards to the non-existence of the universe.

Thats why a God is necessary. Otherwise who cold comprehend such a idea of existence verses non-existence.

Why does our existence come from nonexistence? That's the first problem.
Maybe there always was existence: not such an impossible thing to consider.
If you postulate that the world had to have been caused(created) then you can ask "who caused God to happen?"

[Redratio1]

Why does our existence come from nonexistence? That's the first problem.
Maybe there always was existence: not such an impossible thing to consider.
If you postulate that the world had to have been caused(created) then you can ask "who caused God to happen?"

Which still goes back to the question: Why existence verse non-existence for the "God", and the universe, or "God" that created her. People do not exists, then come into existence. I'm not just talking chemical engines evolved through time. I'm talking about the unique obsever. Each person is given a unique perspective to view the universe, then that window dies with the age of the body, or damage till finally the observer is gone. Why unique observer at all in this universe?

[cytwombly]

Which still goes back to the question: Why existence verse non-existence for the "God", and the universe, or "God" that created her. People do not exists, then come into existence. I'm not just talking chemical engines evolved through time. I'm talking about the unique obsever. Each person is given a unique perspective to view the universe, then that window dies with the age of the body, or damage till finally the observer is gone. Why unique observer at all in this universe?

You mean, Why is there existence rather than nonexistence?
But the statement "Each person is given a unique perspective..." is confusing. Are you asserting something like God gave that?

[cpwill]

Such as?

go on over to the Proof of God thread; i spelled outa good chunk of it there.

[Redratio1]

You mean, Why is there existence rather than nonexistence?
But the statement "Each person is given a unique perspective..." is confusing. Are you asserting something like God gave that?

I'm just asserting that we have unique observer perspective, and that most probably it will vanish once my body is gone. Just like it did not exist before I was born.

[cytwombly]

I'm just asserting that we have unique observer perspective, and that most probably it will vanish once my body is gone. Just like it did not exist before I was born.

Each of us will die, yes.