Family Of 4 Slaughtered

[Missouri Mule]

You think? (I know what I think.) Terrible.
=============================

FAMILY OF 4 SLAUGHTERED

By LORENA MONGELLI, JEANE MacINTOSH and TODD VENEZIA

BLOODBATH:Investigators remove the bodies of the Armanious family from their Jersey City home yesterday as an uncle, Ayman Garas, weeps at the scene (inset). Michael DaltonLEAP OF FAITH:Amal Garas and her husband, Hossam Armanious — in a family photo with their daughters, Monica (left) and Sylvia — had moved to Jersey City after fleeing religious persecution in Egypt. A family of Christians who fled persecution in Egypt ran into a bloody nightmare in Jersey City — where the husband, wife and their two daughters were found knifed to death in their home yesterday, authorities said.

The bodies of Hossam Armanious, 46, his wife, Amal Garas, 36, and their two young daughters — Sylvia, 15, and Monica, 8 — were found gagged with their throats slit at 4 a.m. yesterday inside the green, two-story, wood-frame home they had moved into five years ago.

Investigators were struggling to figure out who could have slaughtered the religiously devout family — and why.

Jersey City Police Chief Robert Troy said police are leaning toward the suspect being at least an acquaintance, after finding no sign of a break-in.

"I don't believe it was random," he said. "They probably knew their killers."

The bloody scene of horror was discovered after relatives who had not seen Armanious and his wife for days grew worried and went to police.

Garas' brother, Ayman, led cops up to the entrance of the two-family Oakland Avenue home, which the family bought in 2000 for $95,000.

He gave cops permission to break open the door, which they did. A heinous scene was revealed in which the husband, wife and two girls were found slaughtered in separate rooms, Ayman said.

Family members who had identified the loved ones' bodies said their faces were contorted in a way that indicated they put up a fierce struggle.

Police said they believe the family was killed between 36 and 46 hours before their bodies were found. The last time that anyone had seen any of them was when one of the children was spotted at school Tuesday, cops said.

"It's a terrible, terrible crime scene," Chief Troy said.

"This hearkens back to 40 years ago, 'In Cold Blood,' " said Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah Healy, referring to the 1959 slaying of four members of a Kansas family, which led to an acclaimed book and movie of the same name.

The loss left Ayman Garas stunned.

"We're a close family," he told reporters. "It's very sad, I never expected my sister was going to be killed — and her husband and her kids."

Armanious and his wife came from Luxor, Egypt, in 1995, pals said...

(Snip)

http://www.nydailynews.com/ips_rich_content/706-monica.JPG

http://www.nydailynews.com/ips_rich_content/122-sylvia.JPG

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/38587.htm

[spork]

What a horrible story. Those poor people.

[The_Penguin]

Whoever has done this needs to be hunted down like dog. Sick.

[mataj]

A little greenlanternism from the Balkans

http://www.srbovanje.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=1203&cid=5


WOMAN REALLY CAN'T TRUST A MAN

SHE THREW HERSELF UNDER A TRAIN, AND HE WITHDREW FROM THE "MUTUAL DEATH"

CAKOVEC, 23.10. Yesterday afternoon, 23 year old Maria Skripec, charwoman, born in Hum in Ptuj Kotar, threw herself under a train. After changing a couple of jobs, she was left unemployed. She cohabited with a 24 year old baker's mate Franjo Horvat from Dolnja Lendava, also unemployed. After they failed to get any job at all, they decided, 8 days ago, to throw themselves under a train, five meters apart. In the sunday afternoon, they walked by the side of Cakovec-Kotoriba railroad, and when the first train came by, Maria threw herself under the lokomitive, calling to her lover: you throw youself too. In the meantime, he changed his mind in the last minute. Unfortunate girl was halved, and parts of her body scattered by the train 50 meters along the tracks. Forenzic medicine commision made an inquiry. There is pursuit after Horvat under way.


gmoney's comment: This one could surely enter into the Men of the Year competition finals

[Madrigalian]

Armanious, an Egyptian Christian, was well known for expressing his Coptic beliefs and engaging in fiery back-and-forth with Muslims on the Web site paltalk.com.

He "had the reputation for being one of the most outspoken Egyptian Christians," said the source, who had close ties to the family.

The source, who had knowledge of the investigation, refused to specify the anti-Muslim statement. But he said cops told him they were looking into the exchanges as a possible motive.

The married father of two had recently been threatened by Muslim members of the Web site, said a fellow Copt and store clerk who uses the chat room.

"You'd better stop this bull---- or we are going to track you down like a chicken and kill you," was the threat, said the clerk, who was online at the time and saw the exchange.

But Armanious refused to back down, according to two sources who use the Web site.

<snip>

Armanious' fervor apparently rubbed off on his daughter, Sylvia — who would have turned 16 yesterday.

"She was very religious and very opinionated," said Jessica Cimino, 15, a fellow sophomore at Dickenson HS.

A family member who viewed photos of the bloodbath said Sylvia seemed to have taken the most savage punishment.

"When we saw the pictures, you could tell that they were hurt really, really bad in the face; especially Sylvia," said Milad Garas, the high-school sophomore's great-uncle.

The heartless killer not only slit Sylvia's throat, but also sliced a huge gash in her chest and stabbed her in the wrist, where she had a tattoo of a Coptic cross.

Qur'an 47:4. Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks

Also found murdered were the wife, Amal Garas, and the parents' other daughter, Monica.

Fred Ayed, the deacon at St. George and St. Shenouda Church, where the deeply religious family attended services, said he's worried that the murders could have a ripple effect.

"I am concerned for the safety of our community," said Ayed, who knew Hossam for 30 years. "People are scared because one family was slain like cows," said Moheb Ghabour, publisher of a local newspaper for the Coptic community.

Both the deacon and uncle poured cold water on the theory that the family were the victims of a robbery gone wrong.

"This is not a robbery, Ayed said. "We found all of the jewelry in the house. They didn't take anything."

<snip>

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/38704.htm

=========================================

Muhammedites, killing Christians they meet on-line in a discussion forum? :(

[Missouri Mule]

I suspect when all said and done, this will be found to be a religious matter.
==============================

Tension between Copts, Muslims also immigrated
Sunday, January 16, 2005
BY JEFF DIAMANT
Star-Ledger Staff

In Egypt, they lived as a Christian religious minority in a predominately Muslim country.

That, along with economic troubles in Egypt, is what led many Coptic Christians to immigrate over the last 40 years to the United States, where several hundred thousand now live, mostly in New Jersey, New York and California.

Copts are part of a religious tradition that broke with mainstream Christianity in 451 over a doctrinal dispute on the nature of Christ. Their current spiritual leader, Pope Shenouda III, is based in Cairo and visits the United States frequently.

Tensions that have strained relations between Copts and Muslims in Egypt also exist in the United States, but with far less potency than in Egypt, as Coptic Christians feel much more religious freedom here, several Copts said.

"I don't think that Coptic people in the U.S. suffer from anyone," said Mamdouh Abdelsayed, a Coptic Christian who lives in Kearny. "We are not a minority anymore as we are in Egypt. ... Dealing with Muslim people, we don't have problems. I'm doing my job, they're doing their job."

In Egypt, Coptic Christians feel their minority status every day, said Monir Dawoud, 65, who moved to the United States from Egypt in 1975.

"The media is all owned by the government, and the media is all Muslim, praising Islam and minimizing Christianity, making it very tough for Christians to live," said Dawoud, a surgeon in Hudson County and acting president of the American Coptic Association.

The killings of 21 Coptic Christians in riots five years ago in Kosheh, Egypt, remain a vivid memory for many...

(Snip)

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-19/11058567348780.xml

[Ed Sane]

The people who did the killing must have had conviction. Its one thing to shoot someone. To beat them the way it was described.......Its kind of sickening how we humans treat others who have different beliefs.

[Heads_On_Pikes]

Funeral of slain family brings Muslim-Christian tensions to boil

1/17/2005, 4:01 p.m. ET

By WAYNE PARRY
The Associated Press

JERSEY CITY, N.J. (AP) — Grief and rage erupted Monday during the funeral for an Egyptian Christian couple and their two young daughters who were tied up and stabbed to death last week. Mourners fought in the street, pushing, shoving and punching each other as many blamed Muslims for the killings.

nvestigators are looking into the possibility that Hossam Armanious, 47, his 37-year-old wife, Amal Garas, and their daughters, Sylvia, 15, and Monica, 8, were slain by a Muslim angered over postings that Armanious, a Coptic Christian, wrote in an Internet chat room.

The bodies were found bound and gagged Friday, their throats and heads stabbed repeatedly. No arrests has been made as of Monday afternoon.

Authorities stressed that robbery could be an explanation for the killings. However, the slayings have created enormous tensions between Muslims and Christians here that surfaced as soon as four copper caskets holding the bodies were carried through the streets of New Jersey's second-largest city to St. George & St. Shenouda Coptic Orthodox Church.

The Armanious family was active in the church since immigrating to the United States in 1997 from Egypt, where Copts generally live in peace with Muslims, but where violence has flared in recent years.

Protesters carrying anti-Muslim signs and shouting anti-Islam slogans on Monday prompted several scuffles with mourners who rebuked them for having no respect for the dead or the grieving relatives. One sign, above a photograph of the smiling Armanious family, read, "American Family Beheaded on American Soil. Welcome Bin Laden." Others read, "Terrorists Reached Our Home" and "Bush: Crush Sleeper Cells."

"Muslims as a group kill people," said Ashaf Baul of Jersey City, one of the marchers at the head of the procession. "Nobody else slaughters people. If it was a robbery, why tie their hands and cut their heads?"

<SNIP>

http://www.nj.com/newsflash/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-12/1105974241283660.xml&storylist=jersey


Ashaf has it about right. Binding and throat slashing is mentioned in the Koran.

If the motive behind this sick massacre is as it appears and the perp(s) are apprehended, they should be made an example of what isn't gonna fly in America.

[Missouri Mule]

Imagine what it will be like if we have a repeat of 9/11 or worse. Everyone ought to read the whole article. I mean this is coming down to crunch time. This is no longer a theoritical exericse. This is happening right here in the good old U.S. of A.

[JoeR]

If only there were no religion

[Unrepentant]

We must depend on MM and Heads ON to keep us up to date on developments in this horrible incident, if only in case the supposition as to the identity of the perpetrators proves to be premature.

[Missouri Mule]

We must depend on MM and Heads ON to keep us up to date on developments in this horrible incident, if only in case the supposition as to the identity of the perpetrators proves to be premature.

Let's cut to the chase. I never said it was Muslims who did this although I think one would be stupid or living in a cave not to consider that possibility. In any event a large number of people have drawn this conclusion, accurate or not, as evidenced by the demonstrations and near riots. I don't think we should bury our heads in the sand in order to adhere to political correctness.

[Unrepentant]

Let's cut to the chase. I never said it was Muslims who did this although I think one would be stupid or living in a cave not to consider that possibility. In any event a large number of people have drawn this conclusion, accurate or not, as evidenced by the demonstrations and near riots. I don't think we should bury our heads in the sand in order to adhere to political correctness.
Never said you did. And 'political correctness' is as hackneyed an accusation as there is. How about truth, justice and the American way, under which we will leave the theories, accusations and judgements to those paid to do so while we wait for the evidence. The story for the media is the Muslim-Christian slant. They're not making up the fact that some people are claiming it, but they are providing the emphasis. My guess is that that angle is exactly the reason this thread started in the first place. So let's be sure to follow it to the end, whatever that may be.

We're all about fairness and balance, aren't we?

[Madrigalian]

Could have just as easily been a hate crime committed by someone who believed they were killing an Arab terrorist and his Islamic family. Or an enraged boyfriend exacting revenge.

Could be anything.

Still, my money's on Muhammedites. I like the odds.

[JoeR]

Considering the MO in regards to the Koran, it certainly does sound like Islamic extremists.

[Unrepentant]

If you listen carefully you can hear the unmistakeable sound of conclusions being leapt to, and on the flimiest of evidence.

Here in Georgia that would require a large sticker that would read "This is a theory, not a fact and should be examined critically."

[Missouri Mule]

Never said you did. And 'political correctness' is as hackneyed an accusation as there is. How about truth, justice and the American way, under which we will leave the theories, accusations and judgements to those paid to do so while we wait for the evidence. The story for the media is the Muslim-Christian slant. They're not making up the fact that some people are claiming it, but they are providing the emphasis. My guess is that that angle is exactly the reason this thread started in the first place. So let's be sure to follow it to the end, whatever that may be.

We're all about fairness and balance, aren't we?

I think we are talking past one another. The FACTS are that large numbers of people in the immediate community have jumped to the conclusions that radical Muslims are behind these murders. This has even been reported in the NYT; certainly no bastion of the right wing. I never said, and would not be privy to the investigation that would prove anything one way or another. We will know that in due course.

My other point is that should we have another 9/11 or worse that large numbers of pissed off people are going to take matters in their own hands. In other words they will shoot first and ask questions later.

I just watched the two hour History channel presentation on the French Revolution. When these mobs get going they will get out of control fast. That is more likely than not. The riots over these murders will be multiplied a hundred fold should another major terrorist attack occur. I would think you would concur on that if nothing else.

[JD3]

I think we are talking past one another. The FACTS are that large numbers of people in the immediate community have jumped to the conclusions that radical Muslims are behind these murders. This has even been reported in the NYT; certainly no bastion of the right wing. I never said, and would not be privy to the investigation that would prove anything one way or another. We will know that in due course.

My other point is that should we have another 9/11 or worse that large numbers of pissed off people are going to take matters in their own hands. In other words they will shoot first and ask questions later.

I just watched the two hour History channel presentation on the French Revolution. When these mobs get going they will get out of control fast. That is more likely than not. The riots over these murders will be multiplied a hundred fold should another major terrorist attack occur. I would think you would concur on that if nothing else.


I assume we both agree that would be wrong. So, what do you propose be done to stop it?

[Missouri Mule]

I assume we both agree that would be wrong. So, what do you propose be done to stop it?

The riots and vigilantism? I doubt it could or would be stopped. There is already a lot of latent hatred toward Muslims out there just waiting for another 9/11. Political correctness will then take a back seat to direct action by the mobs in the street. The American people will not tolerate this stuff. I would suspect it would be a modern version of Old West Justice. The daylight murder of Ken McElroy in Skidmore, Missouri shows it can happen today. I'm not arguing that this is a good thing, but that it is the most probable outcome of another 9/11. (As an aside, this guy's death certificate once crossed my desk. )
-----------------------------------------------------
Some in Skidmore are less reflective about the ordeal. Dunbar, the former town marshal, said his neighbors had only one regret about the shooting.

"It's really a shame about the Silverado," he said. "That was a really nice truck."
--------------------------------------------------------
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/ken_mcelroy/22.html?sect=13

[JD3]

The riots and vigilantism? I doubt it could or would be stopped. There is already a lot of latent hatred toward Muslims out there just waiting for another 9/11. Political correctness will then take a back seat to direct action by the mobs in the street. The American people will not tolerate this stuff. I would suspect it would be a modern version of Old West Justice. The daylight murder of Ken McElroy in Skidmore, Missouri shows it can happen today. I'm not arguing that this is a good thing, but that it is the most probable outcome of another 9/11. (As an aside, this guy's death certificate once crossed my desk. )
-----------------------------------------------------
Some in Skidmore are less reflective about the ordeal. Dunbar, the former town marshal, said his neighbors had only one regret about the shooting.

"It's really a shame about the Silverado," he said. "That was a really nice truck."
--------------------------------------------------------
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/ken_mcelroy/22.html?sect=13


I must be missing something. We are talking about conclusion jumping, meaning a very good possibliity of killing innocent people, and while say it isn't a good thing, you speak of as if such a return to unfair and wrong headed violence would be a good thing.

Am I reading this wrong?

[Missouri Mule]

I must be missing something. We are talking about conclusion jumping, meaning a very good possibliity of killing innocent people, and while say it isn't a good thing, you speak of as if such a return to unfair and wrong headed violence would be a good thing.

Am I reading this wrong?

Yes, you would be wrong in coming to that conclusion.

[JoeR]

The American people will not tolerate this stuff.



I can only hope what the American people at large will not tolerate is the said riots and vigilantism, and that the violence will remain contained. I'm sure in locations where people actually live with a large Muslim population (my hometown, Hamtramck, MI is one such place. It is the only place in the US to my knowledge that has the calls to prayer said over loudspeakers every day, though Dearborn, MI might as well in some areas since it does have the largest middle eastern population outside of the middle east.) that it would not happen, since people would be more tolerant of them. Though the gang violence there might certainly escalate (currently there is quite a lot of trouble in Hamtramck's high school between the black and arabic gangs. luckily for the most part innocent bystanders are not caught up in it)

[JD3]

Yes, you would be wrong in coming to that conclusion.

Good. Can you explain what I am missing then.

[Missouri Mule]

Good. Can you explain what I am missing then.

This is becoming Alice in Wonderland here. If anyone thinks that a 9/11 or worse is going to be passed off as something we have to live with, then I think such people must be deluding themselves.

I've never participated in riots. I've never advocated riots. I've not a racist. Have never supported racisim. Have never condoned racism. But I'm realistic enough to know that the lid will blow off this country should we have a nuclear attack or "dirty bomb" attack or something of that order.

The example I gave from real life in Skidmore, Missouri is what happens when people perceive government as unwilling to protect them from predators. The people took the matter into their own hands and shot this person to death in broad daylight. This, by the way, was portrayed in a television movie with Brian Dennehy portraying McElroy.

On any given day, I can go to certain web sites and the venom building up in some leads me to no other conclusion that there will be a bloodbath in the streets should a nuclear attack happen. I won't be in the mob. But I see this as the probable result. Anyone who cannot conceive this happening has a far more favorable view of mankind than I do. As I have stated here and elsewhere, my view on the inherent nature of man is that we are rotten to the core and we only behave in a civilized way because we have societal sanctions hanging over our heads. Remove the protection of the state from calamities such as I have described and we will in all probability return to the days of lawless abandon. We need not go back that far into our history. One only needs to reacquaint ourselves with the period leading up to and after our Civil War to know the depravity and cruelty that man can inflict on one another. Think Andersonville. Think the KKK. Think Nazi Germany. It's all there lurking in our primitive parts of our animal brains just waiting to come out when conditions are ripe.

I shouldn't have to draw and redraw this map over and over again. It should be evident to anyone who has the slightest interest in and has studied history here and abroad. Look at the bloodbath in France during their revolution. It was incredible to the point of disbelief. I've said enough on this subject.

[JD3]

Yes, and we shouldn't be contributing to the venom.

But, what I am getting at is you paint a bleak picture of what could happen. Certainly it might, but I hope real leaders would spring up and we could gain a foot hold and keep it to a minimum. So, I have tried to figure out just what you are advocating or claiming. That it might happen is fair enough, but is there no way to stop it?

Can we stop 4 chinese nationals by killing arabs? Map out for me what you want done. That is what I am not clear on.

[Missouri Mule]

Yes, and we shouldn't be contributing to the venom.

But, what I am getting at is you paint a bleak picture of what could happen. Certainly it might, but I hope real leaders would spring up and we could gain a foot hold and keep it to a minimum. So, I have tried to figure out just what you are advocating or claiming. That it might happen is fair enough, but is there no way to stop it?

Can we stop 4 chinese nationals by killing arabs? Map out for me what you want done. That is what I am not clear on.

You imply that I am somehow contributing to this. When is it wrong to speak the obvious truth?

What "real leaders" are going to rise up when there are 500,000 dead Americans from a nuclear suitcase bomb inside NYC? I would think it would be pandamonium and total choas; a breakdown of social order. Look at L.A. when Rodney King was brutalized by the police and then they were originally acquitted. Any white person was fair game. Remember how Reginald Denney was nearly killed; having been pulled out of his truck cab and a brick smashed into his head. He had nothing to do with anything except he took a wrong turn into that area. How did you feel, down deep, when you saw that happening? I can tell you that I felt fury inside.

As to the Chinese nationals, the anger is logically going to be directed toward Muslims in general. To my knowledge no one is fearing or suggesting that Chinese are involved in terrorism around the world. It is virtually exclusively Muslims who are and they cross over nationalities and races. I didn't make this up out of whole cloth. I've had numerous Kerry supporters openly ask me "why are we allowing "these people" (meaning Muslims) into this country?" What are they going to be saying the next time a 9/11 happens?

"Oh geeze, I was wrong. We must be tolerant toward these people because they know not what they do." Won't happen.

If you can find any authority; any kind of expert, who believes that such a scenario is not probable, I would certainly appreciate knowing where I can study his or her reasoning. I haven't seen it. Maybe you know something I don't. Please help me with this.

[JD3]

You imply that I am somehow contributing to this. When is it wrong to speak the obvious truth?

What "real leaders" are going to rise up when there are 500,000 dead Americans from a nuclear suitcase bomb inside NYC? I would think it would be pandamonium and total choas; a breakdown of social order. Look at L.A. when Rodney King was brutalized by the police and then they were originally acquitted. Any white person was fair game. Remember how Reginald Denney was nearly killed; having been pulled out of his truck cab and a brick smashed into his head. He had nothing to do with anything except he took a wrong turn into that area. How did you feel, down deep, when you saw that happening? I can tell you that I felt fury inside.

As to the Chinese nationals, the anger is logically going to be directed toward Muslims in general. To my knowledge no one is fearing or suggesting that Chinese are involved in terrorism around the world. It is virtually exclusively Muslims who are and they cross over nationalities and races. I didn't make this up out of whole cloth. I've had numerous Kerry supporters openly ask me "why are we allowing "these people" (meaning Muslims) into this country?" What are they going to be saying the next time a 9/11 happens?

"Oh geeze, I was wrong. We must be tolerant toward these people because they know not what they do." Won't happen.

If you can find any authority; any kind of expert, who believes that such a scenario is not probable, I would certainly appreciate knowing where I can study his or her reasoning. I haven't seen it. Maybe you know something I don't. Please help me with this.


Mule, I don't think you are a hateful person or consciously contributing to anything of the kind. But you bring this up repeatedly. I can say it won't happen. Nor can I say it will. I only know this, anyone could do to us what you are afraid of. And we better keep that in mind and not go off so fearfully and blame those we don't know to be responsible.

Japan saw a of of people die. And in the context of a war, they lost, but they are still here. Have some faith that Americans can find their way no matter what happens. And believe that in the end reason will rule the day.

Life is not a spectator sport. We got the bomb and it made us powerful. And today, no matter how good or bad the country, all leades know they have no say, no place at the table unless they can deal with as prove a REAL threat with the bomb. It is the price of our place. And every enemy, foriegn and domestic, knows the bomb or something like is the only weapon. Pandora's box has been opened. It won't close anytime soon.

So, instead of being afraid and seeing the enemy everywhere, worrying about the if, seek to elect people concerned somewhat about the border. Someone who understands the issue and knows we can't kill our way out of this. Someone who understands nuance and complexity and who will take it to the real enemies, terrorist. Someone who will seek first to make it next to impossible to make a bomb.

And, like a spit in their eye, don't be afraid.

[JD3]

Duplicate

[el nopal]

What scares me is the whole on=line bit. It's great that I try not to piss anyone off because I don't want to be hunted down like a chicken and killed. That would really really defeat the purpose of getting an education and working for the public.

[Missouri Mule]

Mule, I don't think you are a hateful person or consciously contributing to anything of the kind. But you bring this up repeatedly. I can say it won't happen. Nor can I say it will. I only know this, anyone could do to us what you are afraid of. And we better keep that in mind and not go off so fearfully and blame those we don't know to be responsible.

Japan saw a of of people die. And in the context of a war, they lost, but they are still here. Have some faith that Americans can find their way no matter what happens. And believe that in the end reason will rule the day.

Life is not a spectator sport. We got the bomb and it made us powerful. And today, no matter how good or bad the country, all leades know they have no say, no place at the table unless they can deal with as prove a REAL threat with the bomb. It is the price of our place. And every enemy, foriegn and domestic, knows the bomb or something like is the only weapon. Pandora's box has been opened. It won't close anytime soon.

So, instead of being afraid and seeing the enemy everywhere, worrying about the if, seek to elect people concerned somewhat about the border. Someone who understands the issue and knows we can't kill our way out of this. Someone who understands nuance and complexity and who will take it to the real enemies, terrorist. Someone who will seek first to make it next to impossible to make a bomb.

And, like a spit in their eye, don't be afraid.

Joe, I know you don't like WWII comparisons but you should see some of the archival footage of what ordinary Americans said about the Japanese during WWII. But I have my own personal experience. I was six years old and in the second grade in 1950. Attending school that year in our one room schoolhouse were two young German boys who had come over to America recently. They spoke their broken English and were picked on and harrassed continuously by students there. I found this deplorable but sort of stood off to the side observing not quite understanding the hate. These poor little boys and their family left after a while and were all killed in an automobile accident to their new home. There were extraordinary bad feelings of Americans to the Germans and Japanese (especially Japanese) after WWII. There was little to distinguish between the leaders and the people. They were seen to be the same enemy.

My point to you is why do you believe that human nature has changed in the past 50 years?

I would also say this. From the very outset Bush and his administration has went out of its way not to lay blame to all Muslims. He has come under a lot of criticism from many on the right who believe is a captive of political correctness. Of course they see the left as being even more out of touch with reality.

The bottom line is that we all had better do our part in this fight against terrorists. Bush is not the enemy. He didn't fly those airbombs into the WTC and the Pentagon. I could provide a complete list of terrorist attacks since the early 80's. Bush didn't do one of those terrorist attacks. For that matter, Hindus didn't either. Nor Jews. Nor any other miniority group. Everytime an 80 year old grandmother is frisked in the airports just gives additional evidence to those who feel our government is out of touch with reality.

And BTW, I'm not living in fear. This assertion is constantly made as though I am hiding under my bed. It simply isn't the case. Nor was Churchill fearful of Hitler during the run-up to WWII. He saw the future and tried to warn of its certain happening. He was ridiculed in his own party and branded a fool; an alarmist. You know the rest of the story.

[JD3]

There is much I agree with you on. It did happen, but I believe we can learn if we try. But, we must try.

Now:

. . . went out of its way not to lay blame to all Muslims.

When he did this early, I was still with him. It was and is the right thing to do. The Christian crusade stuff isn't.

The bottom line is that we all had better do our part in this fight against terrorists.

NO argument here. Though we may well disagree on what that entails.

Bush is not the enemy.

Perhaps not, but he has done enough harm to be.

He didn't fly those airbombs into the WTC and the Pentagon. I could provide a complete list of terrorist attacks since the early 80's. Bush didn't do one of those terrorist attacks. For that matter, Hindus didn't either. Nor Jews. Nor any other miniority group. Everytime an 80 year old grandmother is frisked in the airports just gives additional evidence to those who feel our government is out of touch with reality.

And neither did Iraqis or Turks or Iraininas or many other muslims and Islamic peoples. Fear is no excuse to blame those who are not responsible.

And BTW, I'm not living in fear.

I can't say whether you are or not. I'll gladly take your word. But your posts seem singleminded and constantly hammer a promotion of an extreme view that says we must overreact because of what might happen. I have a hard viewing this as a fearful position.

Since it might happen no matter what we do and since the enemy is international and not neccessarily going to be who we think it is, better that we spend out time finding a more comprehensive plan and rely less on spending our resources invading countries. NO matter what happens in Iraq now, your doomsday senario is more likely today than it was four years ago. And four more years of the same is likely to only make things worse. neither of us can change reality. Better start asking for some of that leadership to arise out of congress. ;)

[JD3]

Duplicate

[JoeR]

Saying people will blame those people regardless if it is correct or not and saying that it is correct are two different things. I'm pretty sure Mule meant the first one.

[JD3]

Saying people will blame those people regardless if it is correct or not and saying that it is correct are two different things. I'm pretty sure Mule meant the first one.

I agree.

[Missouri Mule]

I'd like to make a personal observation. One of the members here is actually a very devout Muslim. I have communicated with him many times on another forum and know him to be a good and decent man. I have invited him to my home should he ever come to these parts. And he has of me. I have no question but that 99+% of Muslims are good and decent people. But as George Bush said at the outset, Al Queda has attempted to "hijack" a religion. Unfortunately their evil deeds has rubbed off on all Muslims. It's just a fact.

I'm a big fan of the west and its history. To show how single minded revenge is I would refer to the Sand Creek Massacre. It is as good example as any of what happens during these highly charged times.

http://www.lastoftheindependents.com/sandcreek.htm

[JD3]

I'd like to make a personal observation. One of the members here is actually a very devout Muslim. I have communicated with him many times on another forum and know him to be a good and decent man. I have invited him to my home should he ever come to these parts. And he has of me. I have no question but that 99+% of Muslims are good and decent people. But as George Bush said at the outset, Al Queda has attempted to "hijack" a religion. Unfortunately their evil deeds has rubbed off on all Muslims. It's just a fact.

I'm a big fan of the west and its history. To show how single minded revenge is I would refer to the Sand Creek Massacre. It is as good example as any of what happens during these highly charged times.

http://www.lastoftheindependents.com/sandcreek.htm

I don't doubt any of it, but what is the point of nowing thi if not to learn from it. Is there never hope of doing better than we have done?

[Unrepentant]

I'd like to make a personal observation. One of the members here is actually a very devout Muslim. I have communicated with him many times on another forum and know him to be a good and decent man. I have invited him to my home should he ever come to these parts. And he has of me. I have no question but that 99+% of Muslims are good and decent people. But as George Bush said at the outset, Al Queda has attempted to "hijack" a religion. Unfortunately their evil deeds has rubbed off on all Muslims. It's just a fact.

I'm a big fan of the west and its history. To show how single minded revenge is I would refer to the Sand Creek Massacre. It is as good example as any of what happens during these highly charged times.

http://www.lastoftheindependents.com/sandcreek.htm
I've been gone for a while on business, but in catching up with the thread I have a better idea of where you are coming from MM. And I agree that many people would act viscerally and blindly in the event of another attack. The question is, who can do what in the interim to mitigate this reaction? As an optimist, generally, I believe that things can be done and we must depend on our public leaders to lead the way. In many ways, the decision to link the September 11th attacks to Iraq on the flimsiest of evidence has contributed to the pre-disposition to blame all for the actions of a few. By a similar token,I suppose that it then it becomes easier to understand how many of the poor and disenfranchised in the Muslim world can be led to believe that their lot can be attributed to the actions of the 'evil' United States and its people, thus justifying unprovoked actions. And the cycle of violence and negation of value just goes on.

[JD3]

I've been gone for a while on business, but in catching up with the thread I have a better idea of where you are coming from MM. And I agree that many people would act viscerally and blindly in the event of another attack. The question is, who can do what in the interim to mitigate this reaction? As an optimist, generally, I believe that things can be done and we must depend on our public leaders to lead the way. In many ways, the decision to link the September 11th attacks to Iraq on the flimsiest of evidence has contributed to the pre-disposition to blame all for the actions of a few. By a similar token,I suppose that it then it becomes easier to understand how many of the poor and disenfranchised in the Muslim world can be led to believe that their lot can be attributed to the actions of the 'evil' United States and its people, thus justifying unprovoked actions. And the cycle of violence and negation of value just goes on.

I tip my hat. That is exactly it. :thanks:

[Missouri Mule]

I've been scouring the news on this story tonight and have found at least a half dozen articles. One that intrigued me was that this family had tried to convert some others and they disguised their true intentions and set about killing the family. I don't know for a fact that this is the ultimate answer to this mystery but obviously the story has legs and sooner or later will blow up into a much bigger story. Stay tuned. This one is not going away.

[Missouri Mule]

I've been gone for a while on business, but in catching up with the thread I have a better idea of where you are coming from MM. And I agree that many people would act viscerally and blindly in the event of another attack. The question is, who can do what in the interim to mitigate this reaction? As an optimist, generally, I believe that things can be done and we must depend on our public leaders to lead the way. In many ways, the decision to link the September 11th attacks to Iraq on the flimsiest of evidence has contributed to the pre-disposition to blame all for the actions of a few. By a similar token,I suppose that it then it becomes easier to understand how many of the poor and disenfranchised in the Muslim world can be led to believe that their lot can be attributed to the actions of the 'evil' United States and its people, thus justifying unprovoked actions. And the cycle of violence and negation of value just goes on.

I'm not in basic disagreement with your overall goals. My problem coming from my view of life is that I am not optimistic. In fact I am essentially a pesimist when it comes to the so-called goodness of mankind. The depravity, the incredible cruelty of men toward other men is well documented throughout history. We have not had riots and widespread bloodshed in this country -- yet. I would not bet the farm that this will continue indefinitely.

In all our history we have never had a major disaster on the order of a nuclear strike on our soil. Several experts seem to believe this is more likely than not. If they are correct, then we will be entering a new stage in our history that will rewrite the rules on behavior of citizens within our borders. The only way that I know of to prevent such an occurrance is to seek out the terrorists wherever and whenever we can find them. We must be resolute. We must not allow ourselves to fall into complacency and false security. I fear the worst is yet to come, far worse than we can even imagine. That's just the way I feel about it. I hope I am wrong.

[Unrepentant]

The only way that I know of to prevent such an occurrance is to seek out the terrorists wherever and whenever we can find them. We must be resolute. We must not allow ourselves to fall into complacency and false security. I fear the worst is yet to come, far worse than we can even imagine. That's just the way I feel about it. I hope I am wrong.

Seek out the terrorists, not just the people who look like them or people who we have a different beef with but can be accused of being terrorists to justify action or people who live in someplace where there might be terrorists. The danger in taking such indiscriminant action is that for every non-terrorist we kill 'collaterally', more than one new actual terrorist will be recruited because they will then believe the argument that a war is being conducted on innocents. Such geometric results require either an eternal battle or resorting to the 'kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out' approach which negates any claim to some higher moral position. 'We'll bring you freedom if we have to kill you to do it' doesn't seem to me to be a proper rallying cry.

[JD3]

That is the problem. When you tire of swatting flies and instead spread the distruction less discriminately, you kill more than a few other things. As we have see with flies, they adjust and become a more difficult threat. And everything else you killed responds negatively as well.

We must be specific in our response. We must target terrorist and not just throw a wide and indiscriminate net.

[Plato]

I remember when the IRA put a bomb in a Birmingham pub massacring innocent civilians and there were demonstrations about sending the Irish home. Of course this was absurd because something like 25% of British people are from Irish descent in one way or another.

Referring to "muslims" as a Group like this is absurd, but it is real. Muslims are as diverse as "Christians". To persecute someone because, like hundreds of millions of others, they belong to the same religion as a few thousand extremists, is just plain ignorance. But ignorance is fact. Sikhs who wear turbans have been targeted by these lynch mobs.

If we can do anything it is to be more precise with our language. This is not political correctness, but a responsible attempt to identify danger effectively. Referring to muslims all the time will just inflame things further. Referring to islamic extremists or even islamofascists is better for me (although even this can lead to misunderstanding).

Think about it. The troubles in Northern Ireland do have some basis in theology, mostly medieval theology with some extreme protestants believing that the Catholic church represents the ***** of Babylon*. But most people believe that it has very little to do with the mainstream beliefs of real Catholics and Protestants and we call these factions republicans and unionists instead. We need to find a better way of describing people who have nothing much in common with the vast majority of muslims.

*How silly that a word that even appears in the Bible is censored by the puritanical American value driven profanity blocking software ;) . This religious intrusion on public discourse is utterly absurd! Strange that the "land of the free" can be so censorious. :sorry:

[freckled fanny]

Originally posted by Plato:
"*How silly that a word that even appears in the Bible is censored by the puritanical American value driven profanity blocking software . This religious intrusion on public discourse is utterly absurd! Strange that the "land of the free" can be so censorious."

Thank you for pointing out this absurdity, Plato. I wholeheartedly agree with you!