Culture of Hip-Hop

[KG20]

What do you all think about the hip-hop/rap music. Now, I understand some of it is very ignorant, but lots of music forms have ignorant music. The thing is this is a culture especially for the ghettos of America.

This culture gets a bad name from the like of Bill O' Reilly, DeLores Tucker, Doles, Gores, and many other politicians...mostly comes from the conservative side.

But the good side of hip-hop is not talked about, these rappers who are sucessful today lived the lives they speak in their music, so why is it so condemned...is it because we don't want to know what goes on in our country in our forgotten neighborhoods?

Why is the word "censor" always around the hip-hop culture?

[Blueangel]

As with any art form, you always write best about what you know.

My biggest regret is the gang wars that have surrounded this music genre. It's had a devastating effect on the industry and I'd have loved to see what Tupac would have produced as he matured. I'm also not fantastically happy with the way women are portrayed by some artists, but you get this in many music genres, especially my beloved rock music.

One of the greatest songs I've heard in recent years, is 'I Can't Go To Sleep', by the Wu Tang Clan.
Musically, it's incredible, strong, emotive, dramatic and funky.
Lyrically, it's heart breakingly excellent.

It led me to sit down and read the lyrics of a few other artists and there's some amazingly good poetry in there.
I'm terrible for reading lyrics before I play an album, but I feel that it adds to the experience.

One track absolutely guaranteed to get me singing and dancing is 'Purple Hills(pills)'. I played D12's album to death. It's a bit too commercial for many people but I loved it. Same with 'The W' by the Wu Tang Clan.

I don't know if you guys in the US have heard him yet, but there's a great little guy from London making big waves over here, called Dizzee Rascal. He won the Mercury Music Award 2003 at the tender age of 18, and even though he was up against my beloved Radiohead, I could see why he won. This young lad's going to be massive!

[Essendon]

rap specifically sucks

[KG20]

Originally posted by Cale
rap specifically sucks

Why? Explain, and what have you heard?

[Pericles]

As a responsible african american i would never let my kids listen to about 90% of the rap and hip hop available now.

Its promotes stereotypical roles for black men (drug dealers, pimps, players, and heartbreakers in other words "losers"), and makes women out to be cheap (*****es, hoes, etc...)

These are not messages i need and my childern dont need it either. There are many issues facing african americans, and the legitmacy of our culture is further damaged by so called hip hop "mouguls" whose only purpose is to make money and seek pleasure.

They go about making money of the backs of ever an poorer populace now almost completely desensitized to there corroding lyrics.

Hip-hop in it self is good. The artists that make it and the messages they send or truly horrible.

But one black man doesnt make a race. Thats just my opinion...

[Madrigalian]

Whats not to like?

Shooting cops, killing whites, killing blacks, doing drugs, raping women, degrading women, apologizing and justifying all lack of personal responsibility and blaming everything on the "man".

While at the same time glorifying ignorance, stupidity, laziness, criminal behavior and a lack of personal responsibility.


Like I said, whats not to like.

[EvilTwinFelicia]

It comes down to picking and choosing what you will listen to. There are a lot of rock/punk bands out there who also advocate "stupidity," and there is no way in hell I'd buy their stuff or listen to them. Same goes for rap. There is some stuff out there right now that is good, and some stuff that is pure crap. When it comes to rap, I prefer the stuff from the early 80s.

The neat thing about America-- and other countries as well-- if you don't want to listen to rap, or country, or rock, or jazz-- YOU don't have to.

[Pericles]

Whats not to like
:D

[Jray573]

There are good hip hop and rap groups. I doubt that I will be encouraging my son to listen to many of them though. I like Outcast quite a bit, I loved Tupac in high school, and I think Eminem is a lyrical genius. They can give a negative idea to our children about what is cool though, and I hope to set a better example to my children.

I don't think they should be censored, but I wish they would understand there power and use it for positive things.

[Blueangel]

Just to answer a few of the concerns expressed here...it's a complete fallacy when the likes of Tipper Gore lecture about the youth of today being heavily influenced by rap lyrics.
Did Country music ever make you pick up a gun and go and shoot a room full of poker players? :D
Did watching Elvis swivle his hips turn you all into sexual deviants?

I was 12/13 when punk happened.
It exploded, took a tight grip on the UK and I loved it!

Did it make me want to assasinate the Queen or cause 'Anarchy in the UK'?
Did it heck!

If Tipper Gore had been born a Brit, she's have been laughed out of the country 30 years ago.

[gopman]

I'd consider myself a fan of rap. It's a parents prerogative and duty to prevent kids from listening to something that would incite antisocial behavior, but for adults it's a powerful and enjoyable artform, and a valuable part of the American culture.

[green lantern]

i agree with pericles, most rap music promotes stereotypes such as drug dealers,pimps, hoes,ect.ect. doesnt the black community have enough problems without glorifying the very things that are destroying them as a group? where are the rappers glorifying fatherhood, being responsible, and being a stand up kind of person in your community?

[KWJams]

Originally posted by KG20
The thing is this is a culture especially for the ghettos of America.

Off topic just a tad :)

What successful marketing campaign developed from these same ghettos that was primarily fashionable among anglo-American males? :thinking:

[gopman]

"What successful marketing campaign developed from these same ghettos that was primarily fashionable among anglo-American males?"

I think you'll find that some of it is developed for that purpose, but all of it that stands the test of time, like all art, is a little deeper. That's like judging paintings by what my little nephew drew last week.

[KG20]

Originally posted by Madrigalian
Whats not to like?

Shooting cops, killing whites, killing blacks, doing drugs, raping women, degrading women, apologizing and justifying all lack of personal responsibility and blaming everything on the "man".

While at the same time glorifying ignorance, stupidity, laziness, criminal behavior and a lack of personal responsibility.


Like I said, whats not to like.

See now this post sounds like Tipper Gore and Delores Tucker...ignorant. This is one side of Hip-Hop, the side that the media shows. But there is also good hip hop, good music for young ones with no parental support.

Hip Hop is a just another escape for some young people just as other music genres are. People want to claim that rap is bad for our children. Well I'll agree that a lot of it is, but some is very good for the children who don't have parental support.

Artists like 50 Cent, Camron, Dr. Dre, etc. they really don't have anything good to bring, and are all about the money because they glorify being gangsters instead of just telling their stories. But others send postive messages even if they talk about their past about them selling drugs, why? because it is the realities of their lives. The likes of Jay-Z, Tupac, Mos Def, Nas, Talib Kweli, and many others are very postive for the hip hop community. It is a culture, and needs to also be credited because it is not all bad.

I agree with GOPman it is the parents responsibilty as much as how the kids who listen to it take it in. If you listen to the lyrics understand their stories, and the stories they tell of not to repeat their actions. Some you just have to tune out like the ignorance of the 50 Cents and Camrons. I would like to add Eminem to this category but he is just too much of a lyrical and musical genius and his work is incredible.

The people who ignore and only see one side to this need to see the brighter side, and see that a lot of these rappers are becoming large role models of their communities, and these rappers give back...a lot, and that focus is on the children. I'm glad hip hop is around, and just because someone gets shot doesn't mean you blame it on rap music...that is ignoring the real problem!

Oh yeah and Madrigalian, please point out when you have ever heard rap lyrics promoting the raping of women. And what they glorify is the reality they have seen in their eyes, you are priveleged not to look in the past through their eyes. Some of those stories are messages...but you just don't get it because you don't want to.

[BoFA]

I actually owned a rap CD way back when....
It was Big Daddy Kane "Long Live The Kane" (1988)

I was also constantly exposed to hip-hop/rap during my stint in the Army.
I enjoyed the rhythmic sensation of rap.

Now fast forward through 16 years to the present.

The persona/sound of hip-hop/rap turns me off completely.
 I couldn't care less of the plight of black people in the ghettos,
  and I certainly don't want to listen to people rapping their stories about it.

[KG20]

Originally posted by BoFA
I couldn't care less of the plight of black people in the ghettos, and I certainly don't want to listen to people rapping their stories about it.

Uh oh...this comment is going to cause some problems. I know we are not supposed to send personal attacks, but after this comment it is very warranted and necessary...

<Mod Edit---!

And you seem to not understand you're priveleged that you were not born in a situation of living in a ghetto and seeing these stories in your eyes.

So again...you're an <edit>.


Sorry moderators, I'll take the warning, but I had to do it.

<Mod Edit---you are out of warnings!

[BoFA]

Originally posted by KG20
Uh oh...this comment is going to cause some problems. I know we are not supposed to send personal attacks, but after this comment it is very warranted and necessary...

<Mod Edit---!

And you seem to not understand you're priveleged that you were not born in a situation of living in a ghetto and seeing these stories in your eyes.

So again...you're an <edit>.


Sorry moderators, I'll take the warning, but I had to do it.

<Mod Edit---you are out of warnings!
Your responce is typical out-of-the-box trash.

[SantaMonica]

Typically, I gravitate towards the less angry - less hostile rap/hip-hop. Songs can be found by just about any Rap artists that don't include violence. Black Eyed Peas, the Coop, Blackilicious are just a few of my favorites.

[Madrigalian]

See now this post sounds like Tipper Gore and Delores Tucker...ignorant. This is one side of Hip-Hop, the side that the media shows. But there is also good hip hop, good music for young ones with no parental support.

Im sure there are artists and songs worth admiring. The question posed by this thread however was generalized to encumpass the rap "culture" as a whole.

As a whole, generaly speaking the rap "culture" is everthing I said it was.



Hip Hop is a just another escape for some young people just as other music genres are. People want to claim that rap is bad for our children. Well I'll agree that a lot of it is, but some is very good for the children who don't have parental support.

You cannot stage a discussion based on the overall "culture" and then defend that over all culture with a select few who do not follow the basic mold. That is dishonest.



The people who ignore and only see one side to this need to see the brighter side, and see that a lot of these rappers are becoming large role models of their communities, and these rappers give back...a lot, and that focus is on the children. I'm glad hip hop is around, and just because someone gets shot doesn't mean you blame it on rap music...that is ignoring the real problem!

It is not Ignoring the real problem. It is recognizing a contributer to the problem.


Contributers and "role-models" such as the following...

==============================================

"The crackers ain't ****; chase them out of the jungle; now raise up off the planet. . . . we get the 12 gauge; shot to the chest. . . . we hitting devils up. . . . Da Lench Mob, environmental terrorist. . . . I gripped the Glock and had to knock his head from his shoulders. . . . I got the .30[6] on the rooftop; pop; pop; so many devils die. . . . make sure I kill them. . . . lynch a thousand a week if it's necessary"

"Environmental Terrorist"; Da Lench Mob, Planet of da Apes, 1994, Priority Records, Thorn EMI; now called The EMI Group, United Kingdom.

==============================================

"Bust a Glock; devils get shot. . . . when God give the word me herd like the buffalo through the neighborhood; watch me blast. . . . I'm killing more crackers than Bosnia-Herzegovina, each and everyday. . . . don't bust until you see the whites of his eyes, the whites of his skin. . . . Louis Farrakhan . . . Bloods and CRIPS, and little old me, and we all getting ready for the enemy" [Audio]

"Enemy"; Ice Cube, Lethal Injection, 1993, Priority Records, Thorn EMI; now called The EMI Group, United Kingdom.

==============================================

"I kill a devil right now. . . . I say kill whitey all nightey long. . . . I stabbed a ****ing Jew with a steeple. . . . I would kill a cracker for nothing, just for the **** of it. . . . Menace Clan kill a cracker; jack 'em even quicker. . . . catch that devil slipping; blow his ****ing brains out"

"**** a Record Deal"; Menace Clan, Da Hood, 1995, Rap-A-Lot Records, Noo Trybe Records, subsidiaries of Thorn EMI; called The EMI Group since 1997, United Kingdom.

==============================================


Want more?

I could go on and on... fill up this entire forum... But lets get back to you...



Two quotes by you...

I would like to add Eminem to this category but he is just too much of a lyrical and musical genius and his work is incredible.
and...

Oh yeah and Madrigalian, please point out when you have ever heard rap lyrics promoting the raping of women.

How many examples would you like? Here is just one from your incredible musical genious Eminem...



===========================================

-- From the song "My Name is."

"All I wanted to do was rape the ***** and snatch her purse
Now I wanna kill her"

"Come here *****! Come here! Take this mother****in dick!
*****, come here!"

=============================================


Oh how about one more just for ****s and giggles...


==============================================

"Her body's beautiful, so I'm thinkin' rape ... Grabbed the ***** by the mouth, drug her back in, slam her down on the couch. Whipped out my knife, said, 'If you scream I'm cuttin' ... She begged in a low voice, 'Please don't kill me.' I slit her throat and watched her shake like on TV."

Geto Boys, another Time Warner artist

==============================================




Bottom line is this. You are part of the culture you are defending. You are no better than they are for doing so.

[KWJams]

BoFA,

It is your right to be turned off by the rap scene, myself I can not stomach the "New Country" music but would not make disparaging remarks directed towards all the po'folks in Appalachia.

KG20,
You have to understand that when you posted this thread that it would get just the type of responses that you expected. So don't get upset when you get a response that does not sit well with you. Any guess at my off topic post question? ;)

Oh yeah,,,, even Spike Lee is anti-rap. ;)

[rjamortega]

First off it is a culture so far removed from my own. Near impossible to relate to. But when I pay attention for the sake of understanding, I find I both hate it and like it.

I hate the rap that is so self absorbed. The lyrics scream ME and MINE. It debases women and glorifies violence. Can't get behind that. (but some of the women can't be denied...phew!)

The rap that shows a sense of humor is good. I can always relate to anything that is self-depricating. I try not to take myself too seriously. Most times I've seen/litened to Buster Rhymes, I'm entertained.

I don't condemn rap or hip/hop. It's like everything else. Because it is huge right now, and commercialism being the beast it is, you see alot of very untalented people being supported by young minds and dollars. Just like my era's bubblegum crap.

[BoFA]

Originally posted by KWJams
BoFA,

It is your right to be turned off by the rap scene, myself I can not stomach the "New Country" music but would not make disparaging remarks directed towards all the po'folks in Appalachia...


Why do you consider what I said to be disrespectful?

[KWJams]

Originally posted by BoFA
Why do you consider what I said to be disrespectful?

This comment:
I couldn't care less of the plight of black people in the ghettos, :(

Almost all music is the result of lamentation over the plight some people feel trapped in.

Irish Ballads -- Country Music -- Delta Blues -- Rage Against the Machine etc.

[BoFA]

KWJams,

What I said is bluntly honest, but not disrespectful.
I’m not wishing ill fate on these people.
I do not go out of my way to disenfranchise them.

African-Americans, along with all other people who chose to hyphenate themselves, are free to accept their starting position in life or do something about it.

The negative reactions to my comments are the result of years of PC indoctrination designed to suppress any opposing view or criticism of the black community.

[KWJams]

No, my reaction was from what I would consider the result of years and years of stereotyping that just because someone is considered in a "plight-ful condition" that it is their own fault.

People are victims of the circumstances that are dealt to them in life -- to overcome those circumstances are what American success stories are written from.

[Blueangel]

Originally posted by BoFA
African-Americans, along with all other people who chose to hyphenate themselves, are free to accept their starting position in life or do something about it.

The negative reactions to my comments are the result of years of PC indoctrination designed to suppress any opposing view or criticism of the black community. I'm struggling to fully understand this part of your post and I don't wish to make assumptions.

Hip hop music is the music of the people, regardless of whether they eminate from inner city New York or London!
It isn't the exclusive property of black people in either case and in the UK, many rappers are of other origins.
It's strictly a form of self expression and should be treated as such.
Whereas I respect that you may not like this genre of music, I find your generalisation of it to be rather rash.
It's as rash as assuming all rock music is performed by white devil worshippers and is the devil's music.

[BoFA]

Originally posted by KWJams
No, my reaction was from what I would consider the result of years and years of stereotyping that just because someone is considered in a "plight-ful condition" that it is their own fault.
Now it's disrespectful AND stereotyping?
What's it going to be, KWJams?

I couldn't care less of the plight of black people in the ghettos,
and I certainly don't want to listen to people rapping their stories about it.

Again, how is my statement considered to be disrespectful or stereotyping? You're not convincing me.

People are victims of the circumstances that are dealt to them in life -- to overcome those circumstances are what American success stories are written from.
I agree.

[BoFA]

Originally posted by Blueangel
I'm struggling to fully understand this part of your post and I don't wish to make assumptions.

Hip hop music is the music of the people, regardless of whether they eminate from inner city New York or London!
It isn't the exclusive property of black people in either case and in the UK, many rappers are of other origins.
It's strictly a form of self expression and should be treated as such.
Whereas I respect that you may not like this genre of music, I find your generalisation of it to be rather rash.
It's as rash as assuming all rock music is performed by white devil worshippers and is the devil's music.
...And I couldn't care less.
Now, how is that being disrespectful or stereotyping?

[gopman]

You're initial response is the exact same as saying "I don't like Steinbeck because I don't care about the plight of people in the depression."

Assigning a generalization like you did (calling rap's subject matter "the plight of blacks in ghettoes") is the definition of stereotyping. Some of rap is about the plight of blacks in ghettoes, but not all of it, and it doesn't warrant such a generalization. Also the way you phrased it was disrespectful (not to mention insensitive). "I couldn't care less..." You know as well as I the effect of words and their connotations. What you said was uncalled for.

Making a racial stereotype and then being disrespectful toward it is the definition of bigotry and is explicitly banned from this forum.

Santa Monica- Try Talib Kweili. He is really a impressive artist.

[BoFA]

Originally posted by gopman
You're initial response is the exact same as saying "I don't like Steinbeck because I don't care about the plight of people in the depression."
Steinbeck's writings.
And what is this supposed to prove?

Assigning a generalization like you did (calling rap's subject matter "the plight of blacks in ghettoes") is the definition of stereotyping. Some of rap is about the plight of blacks in ghettoes, but not all of it, and it doesn't warrant such a generalization. Also the way you phrased it was disrespectful (not to mention insensitive). "I couldn't care less..." You know as well as I the effect of words and their connotations. What you said was uncalled for.

Making a racial stereotype and then being disrespectful toward it is the definition of bigotry and is explicitly banned from this forum


Take note:

Originally posted by KG20
...The thing is this is a culture especially for the ghettos of America...
Turn your guns in the right direction my friend.

My comments are directly related to the very first post in this thread.

You have no basis for flaming me, as if you even have the authority.

Never did I initiate any stereotypic remarks.

And no one has yet to convince me of being disrespectful.

Originally posted by BoFA
...The negative reactions to my comments are the result of years of PC indoctrination designed to suppress any opposing view or criticism of the black community.

[Blueangel]

I think you're last self quote says it all :(

There is nothing PC about having respect for your fellow man and this all boils down to respect.

KG knows he was out of order in his knee jerk reaction to your comments. He responded with immediate passion and crossed the line. He has made his apologies but I see no apology from you for a view point that is clearly causing upset and misunderstanding.

As a human being and inhabitant of this Earth, Gopman has every right to object to your comments. I just wish you'd take the blinkers off and accept that you've upset people with your comments.

An art form is just that.
It's subjective, and just because you don't like the message in some of it, doesn't give you the right to cast aspersions on an entire community.

You say that people should improve their position in life instead of 'whining' about it.
Do I really need to list all the rap artists who have become multi-millionaires through this art form?

Do I really need to list all the rap artisits who have used their fame to become positive role models for todays youth?

Case in point...the current darling of this scene in the UK is 50cent. He's done many frank interviews over here and has been very honest about his past. Disarmingly honest!
He's obviously a young man with some unresolved issues, but he's doing his best and I'm impressed by his resolve to be a positive role model.

[Madrigalian]

Do I really need to list all the rap artisits who have used their fame to become positive role models for todays youth?

Case in point...the current darling of this scene in the UK is 50cent.

...but he's doing his best and I'm impressed by his resolve to be a positive role model.


A positive role model? You can't be serious!

Lets look at this song from one of his most popular albums..

==========================================

Artist: 50 Cent
Album: Get Rich Or Die Tryin'
Title: High All the Time


(Chorus)
I don't need Dom Perignon, I don't need Cris
Tanqueray and Alize, I don't need ****
***** I'm high all the time, I smoke that good ****
I stay high all the time, man I'm on some hood ****

Give me some dro, purple haze, and some chocolate
Give me a dutch and a lighter I'll spark ****
And stay high all the time, I smoke that good ****
I'm high all the time, man I'm on some hood ****

(Verse 1)
Everytime I ROLL up, niggas holla ROLL up, and I tell'em HOLD up,
You ain't gettin money you ain't smoking
In my Benzo, 20 inch Lorenzos, smoking on indo
Hiiigh as a mother****er
I be on them backstreets, niggas know I clap heat, only if you got beef
Man you better holla at me
Niggas get locked up, stabbed up, shot up
Everytime I pop up, a lot going on in my hood

I shoot the dice, I holler get'em girls
Daddy need new shoes
Daddy need Perelli's to look mean on 22s
Stash box, Xbox, laptop, fax machine, phone
Bulletproof this ***** and I'm gone
2003 Suburban swerving, too many sips of Henny
The D's sick, they searched the whip and they can't find the semis
They was just harassing me cause they know who I was
Spent the night in Central Booking for smoking some bud

(Chorus)

(Verse 2)
Now if you heard I done started some ****
It ain't because I be high (I be high, I be high)
And if you heard I done let off a clip
It ain't because I be high (I be high, I be high)
But I- twist that la, la, la, la

I get high as I wanna *****
Go against me, fa sho, you's a goner *****
I don't smoke to calm my nerves but I got beef
Finna crush my enemies like I crush the hashish
If you love me, tell me you love me, don't stare at me man
I'd hate to be in the Benz clapping one of my fans
Let me show you how to greet me, when you meet me, when you see me
If you real my *****, you know how to holla "G-Unit!"
There's no competition, it's just me,
50 Cent, mother****er, I'm hot on these streets
If David could go against Goliath with a stone
I can go at Nas and Jigga, both for the throne

(Chorus)

(Verse 3)
Now who you know besides me who write lines and squeeze nines
And have hoes in the hood sniffin on white lines
You don't want me to be your kid's role model
I'll teach them how to buck them 380s and load up them hollows
Have shorty fresh off the stoop, ready to shoot
Big blunt in his mouth, deuce deuce in his boot
Sit in the crib, sippin Guinness, watching Menace
Then Oh Lord, have a young ***** bucking **** like he O-Dog
My team they depend on me when it's crunch time
I eat a ***** food in broad day like it's lunchtime
You feeling brave *****, go ahead get gully
See if I won't leave your brains leaking up out your skully
I done made myself hot, so ain't **** you can tell me
Niggas calling me to feature, man **** your money
I ain't hurting, I'm doing good
I ain't got to write rhymes, I got bricks in the hood

(Chorus)

G-Unit, are you ready
G-Unit, are you ready
G-Unit, are you ready
*****, ready or not, here I come, come, com

==========================================

So tell me please... What kind of role model is 50 Cent?

Still think he's trying hard to do the right thing?

[Madrigalian]

Same album... Same "artist".

No need to bold highlight anything in this song...

=========================================

Artist: 50 Cent
Album: Get Rich or Die Tryin'
Title: Heat



(Skit)
"Aye you want some of this ****"
"Naw, I don't want that ****"
"I don't give a ****, I don't play dat ****"
"And I'm fin'nin to buss a cap in a *****"
"Man SHUT the **** up"
"Whoa slow down, slow down, slow down"
"You see that brick house right there"
"That's the ***** crib when he come out you gotta tighten his *** up"
"I'ma get in the other car"
"Aight" {*a car revs up*}
{*gunshots*}

[Chorus: 50 Cent]
If there's beef, **** it and dump it, the drama really means nothin
To me I'll ride by and blow ya brains out (brains out)
There's no time to **** it, no way you can stop it
When niggas run up on you wit them thangs out (thangs out)
I do what I gotta do I don't care I if get caught
The DA can play this mother****in tape in court
I'll kill you - I ain't playin, hear what I'm sayin, homie I ain't playin
Catch you slippin, I'ma kill you - I ain't playin, hear what I'm sayin,
homie I ain't playin

[50 Cent]
Keep thinkin I'm candy till ya ****in skull get popped
And ya brain jump out the top like Jack-in-da-box
In the hood summer time is the killing season
It's hot out this ***** that's a good 'nuff reason
I've seen gangsta's get religious when they start bleedin
Sayin "Lord, Jesus Help Me" cause they *** leakin
When they window roll down and that A.K. come out
You can squeeze ya lil handgun until you run out
And you can run for ya back-up
But them machine gun shells gone tear ya back up
God's on ya side, **** I'm aight wit that
We reload them clips and come right back
It's a fact homie, you go against me ya ****ed
I get the drop, if you can duck, ya luckier then Lady Luck
Look *****, don't think you safe cause you moved out the hood
Cuz ya momma still around dog, and daddy ain't good
If you was smart you'd be shook of me
Cuz I'd get tired of lookin for ya, spray ya momma crib, and let ya *** look
for me

(Chorus)

[50 Cent]
My heart bleeds for you *****, I can't wait to get to you
Behind that twinkle in ya eyes, I can see the ***** in you
***** you know the streets talk
So they'll be no white flags and no peace talks
I got my back against the wind, I'm down to ride till the sun burn out
If I die today, I'm happy how my life turned out
See the shootouts that I've been in I'm by myself
Locked up I was in a box by myself
I done made myself a millionaire by myself
Now, **** changed mother****er I can hire some help
I done heard about the 50 grand you put in the hood
But ya shooter fin'nin to get get shot it won't do 'em no good
With a pistol I define the definition of pain
If you survive ya bones'll still ****in hurt when it rain
Oh you a pro at playin battleship well this ain't the same
Lil homie this is a whole different type of war game
See the losers and up in shackles of mother****in chains
Or laid out in the streets leakin out they brains

(Chorus)

[50 Cent]
After the fist fights it's gunfire boy you get the best of me (best of me)
If you don't wanna get shot I suggest you don't go testin me (testin me)
All the wrong I've done the Lord still keep on blessin me (blessin me)
Fin'nin to run rap cuz Dr. Dre got the recipe (the recipe, recipe)

Yeah, uh ha, aye Dre
You got me feelin real bulletproof up in this mother****er
Cuz my windows on my mother****in Benz is bulletproof *****
Cuz my mother****in vest is bulletproof *****
Cuz my mother****in hat is bulletproof *****
But the Doc said if I get hit I might get a ****in concussion
Better that then a hole in the head right *****, heh heh ha ha

=============================================

I think you are right Blueangel... I mean who wouldnt want to raise their children on this kind of "Art"? I certainally wouldn't.

[BoFA]

Do moderators here share "private messages" between each other? If so I think that really sucks.

Alright then, I was perfectly willing to let this go, but once again, I am being challenged.

I'm under NO obligation to be passionate, tolerant, or accepting of the plight of people in the ghettos, or any people for that matter.
I pick and chose my charities and I will warrant them worthy or not. To take offence to this is to have a conceded and lethargic mindset.

I never initiated a stereotype.
There was also a challenge initiated if you doubted the credibility of the topic -- hip-hop/rap.
There was certainly more to the original post than a simple question of taste in music.
It’s all right there in front of you in the very first post, and you adamantly refuse to accept it.
PC indoctrination at it's finest.

What's the matter?
Are you afraid you might get accused of being racist towards black people?

The persona/sound of hip-hop/rap turns me off completely.
I couldn't care less of the plight of black people in the ghettos,
and I certainly don't want to listen to people rapping their stories about it.

[gopman]

"A positive role model? You can't be serious!"

Maybe not fitty, but listen to someone like Talib Kweili. I've only heard him a couple of times, but I was really impressed. Has anyone else heard him?

"I'm under NO obligation to be passionate, tolerant, or accepting of the plight of people in the ghettos, or any people for that matter."

We know that, but we ask that you don't do it here. If you wonder why, look at what has happened to this thread.

"PC indoctrination at it's finest."

No, it's just common courtesy.

[Madrigalian]

Maybe not fitty, but listen to someone like Talib Kweili. I've only heard him a couple of times, but I was really impressed. Has anyone else heard him?

Honestly I cannot say that I have.

But this points to the heart of this thread and to the "Culture of Hip-Hop" as I've already pointed out. For every 1 "positive" performer you can name in Hip-Hop Rap, I can name you 50 that are nothing more than worthless trash.

Alot of people, like Blueangel it appears, never take the time to really listen to what is being said, glorified and promoted. (beyond the "Im just a misunderstood artist" crapfest served up on morning talk shows) Not too long ago I had a long drawn out fight with my 11 year old son over Hip-hop Rap. He, of course, felt that I was overly critical of "his" music. So I decided to sit down with him and listen to the songs together.

Just to have him sit with me, look me in the eye, and "try" to explain to me how I was wrong and misjudging the "culture".

The funny thing is, we had hardly been sitting there for 20 minutes and he suddenly no longer wished to listen. I had hardly said a word. Just sat quietly listening with him as vulgarity after vulgarity was spewed out of Eminem's, 50cent's and others trashy mouths. Songs about sticking Eminem's dick in some "hoe's" ***, songs about killing other people etc, etc, etc.

He was litterally mortified to be sitting there with his ole man listening to that garbage that he had only moments before been defending as "his" music.

I wouldnt let him quit listening... I made him sit with me for the better part of two hours as we listened to several different artists and as we did I would replay certain verses in the songs at certain points just to make sure "HE" was getting the message of the song.

(btw; we had to download most of it from the internet as I do not allow that brand of music in my house. Thus the reason for debate between my son and I on the issue to begin with)

Then we talked. We talked about his mom and his little sister and how many of the lyrics made him feel about women in general and about those in his family in particular. "How would you feel if you thought this song was written about your little sister?" and "Understand that these songs ARE written about your little sister... they are written about all women in general as seen through the eyes of the "artist" you wish to admire, immulate and defend."

We talked about violence and Hate. Racism and Drugs. Everything. And I am proud to say that once the exorcise was over it seemed to me that my son was less interested in defending "his" favorite artists and their "art" and more interested in searching for "better" music that did not offend "HIM".

Now Im not going to lie to you all and say that in the end my son no longer liked rap music or stopped talking like a little "homie". But I can honestly say that he now has a much more "real" understanding of what it is he is listening to when outside of our home. He himself appears to be regarding his own choices much more critically. I have not had him ask me to buy him anything with Eminem's or 50cents names or pictures on them since either. And inside our home he is far less upset over the rules... "not in my house".

[gopman]

"For every 1 "positive" performer you can name in Hip-Hop Rap, I can name you 50 that are nothing more than worthless trash."

This can also be said of Rockers, painters, authors, etc. I don't think these people who spout meaningless crap are a real gauge of hip hop culture. They're just out there to make stuff that people can dance to and make money. The culture a little deeper, and that's what the thread is about. Rappers like Tupac and Talib Kweili are real reflections of impoverished inner city life, and that's healthy. It's also as important a part of American culture as the Blues or Rock n Roll. That doesn't mean it's good for kids to hear, and I think you did the right thing teaching that to your son.

[Madrigalian]

This can also be said of Rockers, painters, authors, etc. I don't think these people who spout meaningless crap are a real gauge of hip hop culture.

I disagree. This cannot be said of most other "cultures" or "art" forms at all. Not even remotely.

Most movies are artistic in nature while "some" are trash or "pornographic". Same with rock music. While almost all of rock is angry, rebellious and counter-culture most is not pornographic or trash. Sure you can single out some like Maralyn Manson or Kid Rock, however most of the "culture" of rock remains true to its roots and does not "cross the line" into hatred and murder and pornography. Even moreso with books where the vast majority are indeed literary art (of some degree) and only a small amount can be classified as pornography or trash.

At least imo.

Unlike rock, country, jazz, blues, movies, books, games, photographs, paintings, etc. where there is a smaller fringe element of what could be described as pornographic, hateful, or trash elements, Hip hop rap is exactly the reverse.

Hip hop rap is overflowing with pornography, murder, rape, hatred and all manner of vile and degrading themes and messages that permiate throughout the "culture" that is hip-hop.

The one or two few exceptions aside of course.

[gopman]

"Hip hop rap is overflowing with pornography, murder, rape, hatred and all manner of vile and degrading themes and messages that permiate throughout the "culture" that is hip-hop."

The rappers that you refer to don't represent the culture of hip hop, rather the culture of the lucrative music industry. Unfortunately, due to their marketing, and the fact that some of it is very good to dance to, some of the filth becomes quite popular. That doesn't happen so much in other artforms like painting and writing. If you look at the true hip hop artists, you will actually see that they are inciteful and an important part of inner city culture.

[KG20]

Originally posted by gopman
"Hip hop rap is overflowing with pornography, murder, rape, hatred and all manner of vile and degrading themes and messages that permiate throughout the "culture" that is hip-hop."

The rappers that you refer to don't represent the culture of hip hop, rather the culture of the lucrative music industry. Unfortunately, due to their marketing, and the fact that some of it is very good to dance to, some of the filth becomes quite popular. That doesn't happen so much in other artforms like painting and writing. If you look at the true hip hop artists, you will actually see that they are inciteful and an important part of inner city culture.

Wow, GOP hit it on the money. Real hip hop is about telling stories of the underpriveleged and making a positive impact on the young kids in the ghettos. The negative hip hop and every music art form has this is to make money in the music industry, and that is negative. But it is in every medium, every medium and genre has some that are out to just make money. Hip-hop is targeted because the popular (mainstream) ones are the ones talking about things that are wrong. Don't blame hip-hop, blame MTV, blame the viewers who make it mainstream and 'cool.' But you cannot take all those seriously, these artists know they have some responsibility and they grow, like all of us do. These are men who are just trying to get out of the ghetto, and when they find that chance they will do anything...then they grow up and many of their lyrics turn positive like Jay-Z.

GOP man made a great point about Talib Kweli, he is an amazing artist who has amazing influence in young people who listen close to the real lyricists of hip hop. He is not in the mainstream because TV wants the party beats and what sounds good, not what is postive. Madrigalian has focused on the negativity of hip-hop to make her point and to not allow the ghettos to have a voice. They speak what they experience, it is unfortunate but it is what goes on in the lower socioeconomic communities.

Mos Def is another artist who is great. Madrigalian, you seem to do great on finding lyrics, look these two artists up and show us some lyrics, then we'll argue your case. And you say for every one artist you can name fifty bad ones. I'll take you up on that bet. I'm a hip-hop junkie, and I am sure I can beat your quote. There are many postive hip-hop role models, and remember it is a culture not just the gangster rap.

For instance, Mr. Russell Simmons does more for the community than most other leaders and is the father of hip-hop. I don't see any rock music leaders or country leaders or any other genre with someone more positive than the father of hip-hop. It is important and very much needed for the communities these artists come from.

The BS some rap about in music is to get people to dance, to laugh, and not take everything serious. You have used Eminem lyrics, he has contiously, contiously stated not to take him serious that he want people to laugh. It is art, not all art can be taken seriously. But the positive hip-hop music is to be taken seriously, and it has, but you all on the negative side of this argument one to just look on one side.

I do want to apologize for my immature remarks against Bofa, I won't apologize to him because he made a very insensitive and a racist remark, but I apologize to the rest of the forum for my actions. I think BlueAngel and GOP man have spoken for me, and the truth about Bofa's negative and immature remarks. Those type of people are one-sided and close-minded, we must look out for all of our communities in our country. This is our country as much as it is for the ghettos. Not all are deserving of their positions, not all have the role models we have, not all have the resources we have, and most do not have a computer to participate on this forum because they are born in those situations. Bofa, you better believe that!

GOPman I appreciate you looking at both sides of hip-hop, and see how the postive outweighs the little negative that is not taken seriously. And yes, Talib Kweli is an amazing amazing artist. Also check out Mos Def, I think you will think he is equally amazing... I have lived off hip-hop, it has been my escape, and I love it and will continue to defend it. I am a sucessful young man, and that escape has helped me through times. I love hip-hop music, and always will defend it.

To the people who only see the negative of Hip-Hop: Ask the ghettos what they think of Tupac Shakur who has had both negative but party lyrics, and postiive lyrics...ask them, and you know what they will ALL say? "He is our Martin Luther King." And you can bet on that.

[KG20]

Nas: 'I Can'

Chorus:
I know I can (I know I can)
Be what I wanna be (be what I wanna be)
If I work hard at it (If I work hard it)
I'll be where I wanna be (I'll be where I wanna be)

B-Boys and girls, listen up
You can be anything in the world, in God we trust
An architect, doctor, maybe an actress
But nothing comes easy it takes much practice
Like, I met a woman who's becoming a star
She was very beautiful, leaving people in awe
Singing songs, Lina Horn, but the younger version
Hung with the wrong person
Gotta astrung when I heard when
Cocaine, sniffing up drugs, all in her nose
Coulda died, so young, no looks ugly and old
No fun cause when she reaches for hugs people hold they breath
Cause she smells of corrosion and death
Watch the company you keep and the crowd you bring
Cause they came to do drugs and you came to sing
So if you gonna be the best, I'ma tell you how

Be, B-Boys and girls, listen again
This is for grown looking girls who's only ten
The ones who watch videos and do what they see
As cute as can be, up in the club with fake ID
Careful, 'fore you meet a man with HIV
You can host the TV like Oprah Winfrey
Whatever you decide, be careful, some men be
Rapists, so act your age, don't pretend to be
Older than you are, give yourself time to grow
You thinking he can give you wealth, but so
Young boys, you can use a lot of help, you know
You thinkin life's all about smokin weed and ice
You don't wanna be my age and can't read and right
Begging different women for a place to sleep at night
Smart boys turn to men and do whatever they wish
If you believe you can achieve, then say it like this

Be, be, 'fore we came to this country
We were kings and queens, never porch monkeys
It was empires in Africa called Kush
Timbuktu, where every race came to get books
To learn from black teachers who taught Greeks and Romans
Asian Arabs and gave them gold when
Gold was converted to money it all changed
Money then became empowerment for Europeans
The Persian military invaded
They learned about the gold, the teachings and everything sacred
Africa was almost robbed naked
Slavery was money, so they began making slave ships
Egypt was the place that Alexander the Great went
He was so shocked at the mountains with black faces
Shot up they nose to impose what basically
Still goes on today, you see?
If the truth is told, the youth can grow
They learn to survive until they gain control
Nobody says you have to be gangstas, hoes
Read more learn more, change the globe
Ghetto children, do your thing
Hold your head up, little man, you're a king
Young Prince thats when you get your wedding ring
Your man is saying "She's my queen"

Madrigalian: do these lyrics work for you...a mainstream artist with postive lyrics, and I can bet you this HIP-HOP song has had more impact on kids than any rock, country, soul, etc. Are you quiet or you want more?


Mos Def: 'Beef'

Beef is not what Jay said to Nas
Beef is when workin niggas can't find jobs
So they tryna find niggas to rob
Tryna find bigger guns so they can finish the job
Beef is when the crack kids can't find moms
Cuz they end up crime box or locked behind bars
Beef ain't the Summer Jam for Hot 97
Beef is the cocaine and AIDS epidemic
Beef don't come with a radio edit
Beef is when the judge is callin you "defendant"
Beef, it comes with a long jail sentence
Handed down to you in a few short minutes
Beef is when your girl come through for a visit
Talkin bout "I'm pregnant by some other *****"
Beef is high blood pressure and bad credit
Need a loan for your home and you're too broke to get it
And all your little kids is doin is gettin bigger
You tryin not to raise 'em around these wild niggas
Beef is when a gold digger got ya seat and a
A manicured hand out like "pay me *****"
Or I'm telling your wife
Or startin up some foul rumor that'll ruin your life
Beef is when a gangster ain't doin it right
Another gangster then decided what to do with his life
Beef is not what these famous niggas do on the mic
Beef is what George Bush would do in a fight
Yeah, beef is not what Ja said to 50
Beef is more than Irv not bein here with me
When a soldier ends his life with his own gun
Beef is tryin to figure out what to tell his son
Beef is oil prices and geopolitics
Beef is Iraq, the West Bank, and Gaza Strip
Some beef is big and some beef is small
But what y'all call beef is not beef at all
Beef is real life happenin everyday
And it's realer than them songs that you get at Kay Slay

Madrigalian: I can send a lot more, and isn't that interesting these last lyrics I just sent with Mos Def even has current events, wow, hip-hop being postive and being a news source for the kids. Giving the facts to kids, no way, not hip-hop. Can you sense my sarcasm :rolleyes:

Ay Bofa, this is for the ghetto because we all care about the plight of African Americans, because they are just as American as you and I. If they fall, we fall too. You probably don't want to read these lyrics though, huh? These lyrics show you what is real, what is real life, what is the beef (problems) that some people have to go through. But you don't see reality, do you?

Enough of my teaching, as long as we have hip-hop, especially like this, the ghettos will get stronger and the influence of hip-hop contiously grows. The hip-hop culture will never die...I promise.

[KG20]

Everyone should read my last post with the posted lyrics of Mos Def's song 'Beef'...very powerful lyrics that show the reality of what some of the 'beef' people go through in the real world.

[KG20]

Madrigalian, let me introduce you to Mr. Tupac Shakur:

As real as it seems the American Dream
Ain't nothing but another calculated schemes
To get us locked up shot up back in chains
To deny us of the future rob our names
Kept my history of mystery but now I see
The American Dream wasn't meant for me
Cause lady liberty is a hypocrite she lied to me
Promised me freedom, education, equality
Never gave me nothing but slavery
And now look at how dangerous you made me
Calling me a mad man cause I'm strong and bold
With this dump full of knowledge of the lies you told
Promise me emancipation indispute nation
All you gave my people was our patience
Fathers of our country never cared for me
They kept my answer shackled up in slavery
And Uncle Sam never did a damn thing for me
Except lie about the facts in my history
So now I'm sitting hear mad cause I'm unemployed
But the government's glad cause they enjoyed
When my people are down so they can screw us around
Time to change the government now panther power

By:Tupac Shakur

Madrigalian, you claim rappers condone raping women, well read this, again by Tupac Shakur:

Some say the blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice
I say the darker the flesh then the deeper the roots
I give a holler to my sisters on welfare
Tupac cares, if don't nobody else care
And uhh, I know they like to beat ya down a lot
When you come around the block brothas clown a lot
But please don't cry, dry your eyes, never let up
Forgive but don't forget, girl keep your head up
And when he tells you you ain't nuttin don't believe him
And if he can't learn to love you you should leave him
Cause sista you don't need him
And I ain't tryin to gas ya up, I just call em how I see em
You know it makes me unhappy (what's that)
When brothas make babies, and leave a young mother to be a pappy
And since we all came from a woman
Got our name from a woman and our game from a woman
I wonder why we take from our women
Why we rape our women, do we hate our women?
I think it's time to kill for our women
Time to heal our women, be real to our women
And if we don't we'll have a race of babies
That will hate the ladies, that make the babies
And since a man can't make one
He has no right to tell a woman when and where to create one
So will the real men get up
I know you're fed up ladies, but keep your head up

[BoFA]

Originally posted by KG20
...Ay Bofa, this is for the ghetto because we all care about the plight of African Americans, because they are just as American as you and I. If they fall, we fall too. You probably don't want to read these lyrics though, huh? These lyrics show you what is real, what is real life, what is the beef (problems) that some people have to go through. But you don't see reality, do you?

Enough of my teaching, as long as we have hip-hop, especially like this, the ghettos will get stronger and the influence of hip-hop contiously grows. The hip-hop culture will never die...I promise.
I've been to Iraq with all my brothers in arms. I've lived among the projects. I've laid awake at night listening to the gun shots and sirens. I've seen the gang warfare first hand.

I've fought with many a black man, and also befriended many a black man. You don't need to teach me about real life, KG20., I've been there myself, and yours alone cannot dictate mine.

I prefer to look forward, and not ponder, and I truly do not care.
Just the same, I get no pleasure from the stories through the music. I’ve had enough, and seen enough, haven’t you?

Time to move on

[gopman]

"Time to move on"

That's a good point, people do need to move past the violence and crime that have plagued our ghettoes for so many years, but most people can't simply "look forward," they need something to help reconcile and heal themselves. I'm no psychologist, but people have done this for as long as art has existed, and I think it is beneficial.

[KWJams]

The point that is being missed is that ghettos are populated with all races.

No guesses on my question eh? ;)

Ghetto graffiti expressing a lack of hope -- no escape -- nothing to loose -- No Fear! :cool:

[Madrigalian]

I know Tupac thanks. Wasnt he convicted on a sexual abuse charge? If I remember correctly he was. I wonder if that was before or after he wrote this song...

===========================================

Album: R U Still Down? (Remember Me) *
Song: Definition of a Thug ni**a


* originally appeared on the Poetic Justice soundtrack

"Nobody's, closing me out of my business" (repeat 2X)
[2Pac] My definition of a thug ni**a
"Nobody's, closing me out of my business"

Verse One: 2Pac

I played the cards I was given, thank God I'm still livin
Pack my nine til it's time to go to prison
As I'm bailin down the block that I come from, still gotta pack a gun
Case some young mother******ers wanna play dumb
I guess I live life forever jugglin
But I'll be hustlin til the early mornin cause I'm strugglin
Like drinkin liquor make the money come quicker
Gettin pages from my bi**h it's time to d**k her
I ain't in love with her, I just wanna be the one to hit her
Drop off and let the next ni**a get her
That's the way it goes, it's time to shake a hoe, make the dough
Break a hoe when it's time to make some mo'
I keep my finger on the trigger of my Glock
Ridin down the block lickin shots at the punk-**** *cops*
And spittin game through my mobile phone
The type of ****** to get them hoes to bone
My Definition of a Thug ni**a

Chorus: (various samples)

"Tis the season, to be servin" "What you doin?"
"Mob-mobbin like a mother******er" --> Snoop Doggy Dogg
(repeat 3X)
"Tis the season, to be servin" (scratched by Warren G)

Verse Two: 2Pac

Well I roll with a crew of zoo ni**az
They're quick to pulle a nine when it's time do ni**az
Comin through like I'm two ni**az, a true ni**a ****** a Zig Zag
Roll me a blunt and p**** that brew ni**a
I'm drivin drunk on the freeway, so take it ea-sy
Lookin for a new face to skeeze me
Everybody's lookin for a nut but I'm searchin for the big bucks
Give a ******, rather die than be stuck
in a one-room shack, and, kickin back
Daydreamin with the nine in my lap (huh)
So how's that from the mind of a Thug ni**a
Bought a fo'-five cause I heard that the slug's bigger
Figure the first mother******er to jump'll find hisself
gettin swept off his feet by the pump
I put that on my moms, word to the mother******in trigger
Before I go broke I'll be a drug dealer, a Thug ni**a

Chorus

Verse Three: 2Pac

Short than a mother******er snatched up by one-time
Make a phone call and be back to ball by lunchtime
So here we go, we in the inner city
I keep my hand on my gat and stay cool, my attitude is ******ty
ni**az don't like me cause I'm makin ends
Roll in a Benz and I blaze a blunt, cause I'm all in
And any ni**a trying to take what I got'll
hafta deal with the sixteen-shot Glock (huh)
So here we go, I can't be faded
Happy in the mother******er, finally made it
Got my money in my pocket, finger on the trigger
And I ain't takin ****** from no ni**az
I'm just tryin to make some money right
Put some mother******in food in my tummy right
I'm feelin good like I'm supposed to, ready to ball
Find a spot and we can serve em all
My Definition of a Thug ni**a

Outro: (various samples)

"Tis the season, to be servin"
"Mobbin like a mother******er, every single day" --> Snoop Doggy Dogg
[2Pac] My Definition of a Thug ni**a
(repeat 3X)
"Tis the season, to be servin" (scratched by Warren G)

"Nobody's, closing me out of my business" (continually scratched to near end)

==============================================

Real inspiring stuff there... MLK would be proud.

And for the record I liked the lyrics you posted by the other artist... Talib Kweli? Any more artists like that? I find it a little odd that you call his music main stream when I've never heard of him... While others like Snoop Dog, Eminem, Tupac, 50cent etc etc seem to be household names...

So far you have provided me with, as best I can tell, one or maybe two (Mos Def?) artists out of the entire hip-hop rap community that I might find as being positive and inspirational over all.

Ill help ya out and go ahead and add Will Smith and Jazzy Jeff.

That it? Shall I start my list now, with example excerpts of the rest of the Rap community? Or do you have one or two more you would like to show me? If you'll send them, I'll happily review them and perhaps even pass them on to my son as artists I can approve of. Frankly though I do not hold out too much hope considering the names that have been brought up as "geniuses and artists" thus far, such as Eminem and 50cent...

Im not impressed.

And no, although Tupac does draw upon some positive themes from time to time, he is just as guilty as the rest of pandering to the allure of violence, hatred and glorification of "A Thugs Life."

[KG20]

Wow, Madgalirin, you really know how to ignore points, did you read my posts, guess not, you went on to just post lyrics from your side. This is art, art can be seen when to be seen as serious and when not. When Tupac was falsely accused of rape, (check out the transcriptions of the case, they were posted all over mtv.com), he was upset with women, enraged that a woman would falsely accused, so he lashed out. He lashed out, and you know what some women call themselves hoes and whatever, it happens. Just as some guys call themselves as "ghetto a** niggas." This is a different culture, a culture you have NO understanding about.

People know what Tupac was to him, and I know what he was to me. Watch his movie ignorant!

And you know what Madgerin, he lives a "thug life," a life you haven't had to grow up around. He says he's a thug because he is a thug, that is the reality. Read the many books done on him, not just lyrics that are his art. Gangs are real in their lives, it is a part of their survival. Bofa, you haven't faced anything like some of these young men have who have never been taught anything, don't ever equate the couple months of war to the everyday life of the ghetto...you'll be laughed at.

Oh, and the quotes about Eminem all of them, they are lyrical geniuses, an artist who can put togehter words like he does is musically talented. Yeah, I don't agree with what he says most of the time, but he has talent no one should ignore. He is musically gifted, whether you like it or not. And ay, no one and no other music genre can sell records like he does, he must have some talent. Dig that?

Read these lyrics carefully by Eminem himself...Madriglin, you must be one of the many "ignoramus" that Em refers to:

Eminem:
That's why these prosecutors wanna convict me
Strictly just to get me off of these streets quickly
But all they kids be listenin to me religiously
So I'm signin CD's while police fingerprint me
They're for the judge's daughter but his grudge is against me
If I'm such a ****in menace this **** doesn't make sense B!
It's all political, if my music is literal
and I'm a criminal how the **** can I raise a little girl?
I couldn't; I wouldn't be fit to

Entertainment is changin, intertwinin with gangsters
In the land of the killers a sinner's mind is a sanctum
Holy or unnholy, only have one homie
Only this gun - lonely cause don't anyone know me
Yet everybody just feels like they can relate
I guess words are a mother****er, they can be great
or they can degrate; or even worse, they can teach hate
It's like these kids hang on every single statement we make
like they worship us, plus all the stores ship us platinum
Now how the **** did this metamorphosis happen?
From standin on corners and porches just rappin
to havin a fortune, no more kissin ***
But then these critics crucify you, journalists try to burn you
Fans turn on you, attorneys all want a turn at you
to get they hands on every dime you have
They want you to lose your mind every time you mad
So they can try to make you out to look like a loose cannon
Any dispute won't hesitate to produce handguns

They say music can alter moods and talk to you
Well can it load a gun up for you and **** it too?
Well if it can, and the next time you assault a dude
Just tell the judge it was my fault, and I'll get sued
See what these kids do is hear about us totin pistols
and they want to get one cause, they think the ****'s cool
Not knowin we really just protectin ourselves
We entertainers, of course the ****'s affectin our sales
You ignoramus, but music is reflection of self
We just explain it, and then we get our checks in the mail
It's ****ed up ain't it? How we can come from practically nothin
to bein able to have any ****in thing that we wanted
That's why we, sing for these kids who don't have a thing
except for a dream and a ****in rap magazine
Who post pin-up pictures on they walls all day long
Idolize they favorite rappers and know all they songs
Or for anyone who's ever been through **** in they lives
'Til they sit and they cry at night wishin they'd die
'Til they throw on a rap record and they sit and they vibe
We're nothin to you - but we're the ****in **** in they eyes
That's why we, seize the moment try to freeze it and own it
Squeeze it and hold it, cause we consider these minutes golden
And maybe they'll admit it when we're gone, just let our spirits live on
through our lyrics that you hear in our songs and we can...

What...speechless huh. That is the talent and the truth. Understand what hip-hop is to some people before you post things. You know nothing about hip-hop Madrigin, not the history, the origins, or the reality of what it does for some. And your kids will listen to it...I promise they will.

[KG20]

Jay-Z:

I had to hustle, my back to the wall, ashy knuckles
Pockets filled with a lot of lint, not a cent
Gotta vent, lot of innocent of lives lost on the project bench
Whatchu hollerin? Gotta pay rent, bring dollars in
By the bodega, iron under my coat, feelin braver
Doo-rag wrappin my waves up, pockets full of hope
Do not step to me - I'm awkward, I box leftier often
My pops left me an orphan, my momma wasn't home
Could not stress to me I wasn't grown; 'specially on nights
I brought somethin home to quiet the stomach rumblings
My demeanor - thirty years my senior
My childhood didn't mean much, only raisin green up
Raisin my fingers to critics; raisin my head to the sky
Big I did it - multi before I die (*****)
No lie, just know I chose my own fate
I drove by the fork in the road and went straight


Madrigin, if you haven't heard of Talib Kweli, you're really out of the mix, but as you asked, Talib Kweli:

'Get By':
We keeping it gangster say "fo shizzle", "fo sheezy" and "stayin crunk"
Its easy to pull a breezy, smoke trees, and we stay drunk
Yo, I activism - attackin the system, the blacks and latins in prison
Numbers of prison they victim black in the vision
**** and all they got is rappin to listen to
I let them know we missin you, the love is unconditional
Even when the condition is critical, when the livin is miserable
Your position is pivotal, I ain't bull****tin you
Now, why would I lie? Just to get by?
Just to get by, we get fly
The TV got us reachin for stars
Not the ones between Venus and Mars, the ones that be readin for parts
Some people get breast enhancements and penis enlargers
Saturday sinners Sunday morning at the feet of the Father
They need somethin to rely on, we get high on all types of drug
When, all you really need is love
To get by.. just to get by
Just to get by, just to get by
Our parents sing like John Lennon, "Imagine all the people watch"
We rock like Paul McCartney from now until the last Beatle drop

More Talib Kweli:
Today the paper say Timothy McVeigh's in hell
So everything's okay and all must be well
I remember Oklahoma when they put out the blaze
And put Islamic terrorist bombing, on the front page
It's like saying only gays get AIDS, propaganda
Like saying the problem's over when they locked that man up
Wrong! It's just the beginning, the first inning
Battle for America's soul, the devil's winning
The President is Bush, the Vice President's a Dick
So a whole lot of ****in is what we gon' get
They don't wanna raise the babies so the election is fixed
That's why we don't be ****in with politics
They bet on that, parents fought and got wet for that
Hosed down, bit by dogs, and got blacks into house arrest for that
It's all good except for that - we still poor
Money, power and respect is what we kill for, for real

Niggaz with knowledge is more dangerous than than niggaz with guns
They make the guns easy to get and try to keep niggaz dumb
Target the gangs and graffiti with the Prop 21
I already know the deal but what the **** do I tell my son?
I want him livin right, livin good, respect the rules
He's five years old and he still thinkin cops is cool
How do I break the news that when he gets some size
He'll be percieved as a threat or see the fear in they eyes
It's in they job description to terminate the threat
So 41 shots to the body is what he can expect
The precedent is set, don't matter if he follow the law
I know I'll give my son pride and make him swallow it all (damn!)
**** the pigs! I think the pigs killed Big and 'Pac too
If they didn't they know who did, they got to!
Who they serve and protect, ***** not you
Cops shot off of ten G's but they got glocks too
Let you protect yourself, or better yet respect yourself
Straight into the hospital is where you gotta check yourself
They be gettin tips from snitches and rival crews
Doin them favors so they workin for the drug dealers too
Just business enforcers with hate in they holsters
Shoot you in the back, won't face you like a soldier
Kurt Loder asked me what I say to a dead cop's wife
Cops kill my people everyday, that's life


My heart go out to everybody at Ground Zero
Red, black, yellow, white and brown heroes
It's more complicated than black and white
To give your own life is the greatest sacrifice
But it's hard for me to walk down the block
Seeing rats and roaches, crack viles and 40 ounce posters
People broken down from years of oppression
Become patriots when they way of life is threatened
It's a hard conversation to have
We lost kids, moms and dads, people ready to fight for the flag
Damn, when did **** get this bad?
America kill the innocent too, the cycle of violence is sad
Damn! Welcome to the world, we here
We've been at, war for years but it's much more clear (yeah)
We got to face what lies ahead
Fight for our truth and freedom and, ride for the dead

[Madrigalian]

Wow, Madgalirin, you really know how to ignore points, did you read my posts, guess not, you went on to just post lyrics from your side. This is art, art can be seen when to be seen as serious and when not.

No KG20 I heard what ya had to say. I just do not agree with you. Btw my screen name is Madrigalian or "Mad" for short if you prefer (its easier to spell that way too if it helps) I only mention it because you seem to have some issues with spelling my screen name correctly or you are choosing to become personally offensive. I'm not certain which, (not that I care much) but I figured I would give you the benefit of doubt and offer you the opportunity to recognize the correct spelling.

Lots of things are considered art KG20. For instance you could pile a heaping load of cat **** on to a waffle and call it art, that doesnt make the **** smell any nicer or the waffle taste any better. It's still cat **** on a stale waffle.


When Tupac was falsely accused of rape, (check out the transcriptions of the case, they were posted all over mtv.com), he was upset with women, enraged that a woman would falsely accused, so he lashed out.

I have been wronged in my life too... doesnt make lashing out right. Doesnt make degrading people right. And btw, was he convicted or wasn't he?



He lashed out, and you know what some women call themselves hoes and whatever, it happens. Just as some guys call themselves as "ghetto a** niggas." This is a different culture, a culture you have NO understanding about.

First off you have no clue what I understand and what I do not. Do you know where or how or in what culture I grew up or lived in? Tell me KG20, tell me about my life. I would like to hear your expert opinion about what I understand and do not understand.

And what culture is it exactly that you think I do not know anything about? The poor? The inner city? The abused? The Black? The ghetto? I could enlighten you. But it really serves no purpose to do so. Because the fact is I do not need to know a culture to know the difference between right and wrong.

Do you?

For instance, one culture that I know very little about is the culture called Nazis or white supremists. I suppose you know very little about them yourself... Still I wonder, how much do you need to know to draw your own conclusions about the music they find righteous and "real".

Have you listened to the blue eyed devils? Or Nordic Thunder?

Funny thing is, I bet they would say much the same things as you... "It's our culture." or "its the truth of how we grew up." or "You didnt grow up like we did" or even "You just dont understand where we are coming from."

Oh yeah, they sing about bustin caps in people... (guess who) and they sing about hate and growing up on the mean streets just like Tupac and 50cent and the rest. They even sing about killing cops who single them out. They sing about the wars in the ghettos. Actually they and rappers seem to have alot of music commonality when ya think about it.

DOES NOT MAKE IT ART. DOES NOT MAKE IT ADMIRABLE.

DOES NOT IN ANY WAY MAKE IT "OK".


And you know what Madgerin, he lives a "thug life," a life you haven't had to grow up around. He says he's a thug because he is a thug, that is the reality. Read the many books done on him, not just lyrics that are his art. Gangs are real in their lives, it is a part of their survival.

Again you have no idea what I grew up around. And again the point is irrelivent. Right is right. Wrong is wrong. You Sir can explain, excuse, apologize and reason through whatever ya like, I do not care. Murder is wrong. Hate is wrong. Being a thug is wrong and anyone who glorifies, condones, or makes money off of propigating that culture is absolutely wrong.

Simple as that.


Oh, and the quotes about Eminem all of them, they are lyrical geniuses, an artist who can put togehter words like he does is musically talented. Yeah, I don't agree with what he says most of the time, but he has talent no one should ignore. He is musically gifted, whether you like it or not. And ay, no one and no other music genre can sell records like he does, he must have some talent. Dig that?

Oh yeah, I dig that. Now you "dig" this. Talent is admirable. That does not mean everyone who has talent is to be admired.

Dig it?


Read these lyrics carefully by Eminem himself...Madriglin, you must be one of the many "ignoramus" that Em refers to:

I see. When all else fails resort to insults. Got ya.

Frankly, if I am to be counted among Eminiem's deffinition of an ignoramous I certainally could not be prouder.


Btw, in addition to your spelling you might also want to work on your reading comprehension skills as well. I did not ask you for more Lyrics by Talib Kweli. I asked you for examples of other artists that also had positive messages and might be worth admiring for what they sing and represent. You must have misunderstood me.

The request, I thought, was pretty clear since I explained that I would like to see how many truly positive hip hop influences you could actually come up with. And then handed you two myself. So either you did not read my post, or you didnt understand it, or you cant come up with any.

/shrug I didnt really expect you to come up with much anyway.

I appreciate the lyrics though. After reading the newest round of lyrics you posted by Talib I am even more confident of my assertions that the vast majority of hip hop (like white pride world wide music) is garbage.

[gopman]

Art isn't required to be positive and happy. It's supposed to be a reflection of the Human condition, and frankly, in the ghettoes, the human condition is suffering. It's unfortunate, and real hip hop culture is one of the best things they have going. It's the duty of the parents to keep their kids away from it. But don't panic- we live in a beautiful world. There are plenty of positive influences out there for children. In the meantime, an important part of inner city culture shouldn't be ignored or restricted because it can fall on impressionable ears. It's unfortunate that the filth gives the entire genre a bad name, but I think that as the artform moves more toward mainstream acceptance as did jazz and rock and roll, it will become less offensive and even more positive.

[CyNix]

I do not like much Hip-Hop at all. I am sure you have all had to listen to this song at one point in time:
Lyrics from "Nellyville" Hot in Herre
Hot in.....
So hot in herre.....
So hot in.....

[Nelly]
I was like, good gracious *** bodacious
Flirtatcious, tryin to show faces
Lookin for the right time to shoot my steam (you know)
Lookin for the right time to flash them G's
Then um I'm leavin, please believin
Me and the rest of my heathens
Check it, got it locked at the top of the four seasons
Penthouse, roof top, birds I feedin
No deceivin, nothin up my sleeve, no teasin
I need you to get up up on the dance floor
Give that man what he askin for
Cuz I feel like bustin loose and I feel like touchin you
And cant nobody stop the juice so baby tell me whats the use

[Hook x2]
(I said)
Its gettin hot in here (so hot)
So take off all your clothes

I am gettin so hot, I wanna take my clothes off

[Nelly]
Why you at the bar if you aint poppin the bottles
What good is all the fame if you aint ****** the models
I see you drivin, sportscar, aint hittin the throttle
And I be down, and do a hundred, top down and goggles
Get off the freeway, exit 106 and parked it
Ash tray, flip gate, time to spark it
Gucci collar for dollar, got out and walked it
I spit game cuz baby I cant talk it
Warm, sweatin its hot up in this joint
VOKAL tanktop, on at this point
Your with a winner so baby you cant loose
I got secrets cant leave Cancun
So take it off like your home alone
You know dance in front your mirror while your on the phone
Checkin your reflection and tellin your best friend,
like "girl I think my butt gettin big"

[Hook x2]

(Nelly hang all out)
Mix a little bit a ah, ah
With a little bit a ah, ah
(Nelly just fall out)
Give a little bit a ah, ah
With a little bit a ah, ah
(Nelly hang all out)
With a little bit a ah, ah
And a sprinkle a that ah, ah
(Nelly just fall out)
I like it when ya ah, ah
Girl, Baby make it ah, ah

[Nelly]
Stop placin, time wastin
I gotta a friend with a fo' in the basement (What?)
I'm just kiddin like Jason (Oh)
Unless you gon' do it
Extra, extra eh, spread the news
Nelly took a trip from the Lunner to Neptune
Came back with somethin thicker than fittin in sasoons
Say she like to think about cuttin in restrooms

[Hook x4]

(Nelly hang all out)
Mix a little bit of ah, ah
With a little bit of ah, ah
(Nelly just fall out)
Give a little bit of ah, ah
With a little bit of ah, ah
(Nelly hang all out)
With a little bit of ah, ah
And a sprinkle of that ah, ah
(Nelly just fall out)
I like it when ya ah, ah
Girl, Baby make it ah, ah


Need I say more? In my opinion, this is one of the most pitiful excuse of a song to ever play on the radio.

[KG20]

Cynix, horrible example of using Nelly's song, that man is doing a lot for his community, look it up, you would be suprised.

And that song is a song to dance to, why do you all take things so serious. You are all so anal about having a perfect world. Hip Hop is good and Mad (is that what you call yourself), your kids will listen to it, wear it, see it, live it, eat it, watch it, etc. the culture of hip hop. You can't hide it away from them. You can try, but you will fail.

[KG20]

"Mad" here is the list you requested of positive hip-hop artists. There are many more, but this is what I came up with on the top of my head. So you say to every one postive artist you can name 50 negative artists, so I think you owe me around 2,300 negative artists. If you need more, I'm sure I'll think of more but for now...Happy Hunting:

Mos Def
Common
Talib Kweli
The Roots
Tupac Shakur
Slum Village
Black Eyed Peas
Erykah Badu
Big Boi
Andre 3000
Lauryn Hill
Wyclef Jean
AZ
Nas
Jay-Z
Russell Simmons
Run DMC
Chuck D
Tariq
KRS One
Immortal Technique
Aceyalone
Lyrics Born
Gift of Gab
GZA
RZA
The Roots
Jurassic 5
Nappy Roots
Will Smith and DJ Jazzy Jeff (as you stated)
DJ Quik
Raphael Saadiq
Eric B.
Rakim
Outlawz
Pete Rock
Pharoahe Monch
A Tribe Called Quest
De La Soul
Dilated Peoples
Hi-Tek
Tony Touch
Kanye West

[Madrigalian]

Mad (is that what you call yourself), your kids will listen to it, wear it, see it, live it, eat it, watch it, etc. the culture of hip hop. You can't hide it away from them. You can try, but you will fail.

KG20 you sure assume a great many things. Like assuming that I am a woman, or what I do or do not understand, relate to or have experienced.

Your most recent assumption being that I would attempt to hide my children away from hip hop culture or that I think I could.

Quite the contrary, as I wrote about earlier, I am all for exposing my children to the realities of the world we live in. As a matter of fact I make it a point to. You know where my 11 year old spent his christmas eve? In a homeless shelter serving warm food to those who could appreciate it most... with me. Not just because it is a kind thing to do, but because I want him to understand what kinds of tragedy life can bring with but a turn of fate.

The assumption that I am so naive as to believe that I could keep my children from hearing or being surrounded by today's vice and garbage is far from the truth. The fact is, I know that I cannot shelter them from it nor do I wish to.

But what I can do is say to them; "I do not approve." ; "This is why I do not approve." ; "This is the reality of what you are seeing glorified." ; "Understand this about what you seem to think is so cool..." and "Let me show you the other side of the coin that you are too young and inexperienced to see..."

But most of all, the best thing I can do is say to them... "Not in my home." I do not condone it. I do not believe it is appropriate or positive and regardless of what you may or may not do outside of my home, I will not abide it in the place where "I" live.

Because I know I cant keep them from being innundated with it. But what I can do is teach them better and show them that although the whole world may have lost it's sense of right and wrong, I have not... and niether will they. Not while I have the means to impress upon them otherwise.

Thats "my" job. Not Tupac's or Eminem's.

As for your list, frankly in looking over who you have supplied I find much of it to be just as vile and worthless as those you have already "honored" so... well, Im not going to go there. Suffice to say that I would be more interested in simply copy pasting the Lyrics that I find objectionable from the artists you supplied as I have already done with the previous artists you seem so impressed by, which obviously you will refuse to acknowledge just as you have with the rest.

Just as Cynix points out another piece of garbage you immediately return with the, "but he loves small children and animals" logic which is pointless and hardly addresses the seriousness of the issue of his music. Which btw was the point of this thread. Not his community service, such that it might be.

So I think this is probably where I leave you to you and yours on this thread and simply agree to disagree with you.

Regards.

[KG20]

Way to cop out Mad, you lose the argument so all you can say is you're done arguing. C'mon.

Tupac or Eminem know it is "your" job to be the parent, where do you get this from. And the artists I have listed have hurt your argument so you just disregard them. Look up those artists and you'll find postive lyrics in all. C'mon, you said you can match 50 to my 1, hands down, you've gave into the argument.

And the more you say no no no to hiphop, the more it goes into the children's ears.

[CyNix]

Originally posted by KG20
Cynix, horrible example of using Nelly's song, that man is doing a lot for his community, look it up, you would be suprised.
Listen to whatever you want. However, I find songs like Nelly's above to be sickening. It has good a beat, and is pretty catchy, but the lyrics are offensive to me. I'll find something else to listen to. :D

[Blueangel]

Ironically, I'm currently watching a documentary about Robert Johnson.
Apparently, the early blues musicians were considered to be "loose and degenerate".

Some things never change. ;)

[Pericles]

For a long time i aspired to have these rappers have...

massive wealth
all the girls i want
the fame
street cred

Then i realized the more important thimgs in life...the kind of stuff that builds up our culture...the kind of stuff that makes you proud of your heritage.

Stuff like

Responsibility
Respect
Honor
Patience
Loyalty
Honesty

Ive come far enough to realize that to live the life that most these "stars" promote is to do the exact opposite. Thats why I love Jazz, thats why i enjoy classics. Because its the kind of stuff that makes me proud of who I am.

Name me one rap artist thats has a top twenty album, that doesnt refer to drugs, hoes, pimps, players, cheating, killing in a positive way. You can't....


And by the way one song doesnt constitute sainthood (BEP need not apply) ... People will listen to a change in focus, I want a song with relevance. (Not a song about getting rich and licking some nookie...!!!)

[Pericles]

and by the way negative music damages everybody...young or old. The more you pretend you are immune to the messages contained in music the more dillusuional you become...

[NimNim]

All I can say is that Triple Six kicks a**!

[Curio]

sure, rap can be aggressive and angry, but it also can be an outlet for the artists to say what they feel (and make $$$ whie doing it!)just listen to Eminem "Hailie's Song", wherin he actually sings to his daughter. The result is showing that he feels he's a pretty messed up guy, he hates his mom and dad, his wife left him, but he has his daughter, and loves her more than anything else in the world, so he's okay. He also shows what he thinks of wannabe rappers in songs like "Business." I gotta say though, a lot of rappers (cough 50 Cent cough) are just spitting angry cliches, swears and pimp references. I don't like them at all. Bottom line is, I doin't think that music is damaging, and personally, when I need a rush before playing a concert or competing, NOTHING gets me up and ready more than a few hits of The Clash "White Riot" and Rancid's "Roots Radicals". those are my wonder drug. and for some of my friends, it's rap music. I just think that overprotective parents are scared as h*** that their kids are going to want to be a pimp or gang member because of rap. With the ghetto kids, i think that it's not rap that makes them do the things they do, it's the way they live. Kill or be killed. an eye for an eye. the oldest concept of street survival. rap is just along the way.

[ScummyD]

Originally posted by KG20

But the good side of hip-hop is not talked about, these rappers who are sucessful today lived the lives they speak in their music, so why is it so condemned...is it because we don't want to know what goes on in our country in our forgotten neighborhoods?
It has great influence on children who are exposed to its hate filled, violent, anti-social, criminal expressions and has a detrimental effect on society. Not all of the artists of this genre fit this category, but plenty do.