The Crucifixion of Terry Schiavo

[Albert]

On this Palm Sunday I am moved to reflect on how we often overlook small aspects of the Gospels so many of us have chosen to follow. Do we really understand what the purpose of Crucifixion was in Roman times? It was a form of prolonged torture that ended in death more than a simple form of execution. Victims could linger in horrible pain for days. One of the miraculous events of the Crucifixion of Christ was that he was able to give up his spirit so quickly, in the matter of hours.

So what does this have to do with this unfortunate woman, Terry Schiavo, everything or nothing depending on your religious beliefs. Some believe that our spirits are given up to God at the moment of our deaths. This poor woman has been trapped between life and death for a very long time. Her doctors see no reason to believe she will ever regain the ability to communicate so her existence has been in the hands of others acting on her behalf. It makes me wonder now many different proofs of the old saying, “The road to hell is paved by good intentions”, there are?

My father suffered a profound brain injury, he lived for ten years completely disabled, unable to walk or speak. He could however sit up, eat, smile, cry and sometimes sing. I never wished for my father to die but when he did, I felt that he had been set free. In the early months of his injury, I visited my father at the rehabilitation center. I saw first hand individuals who were far worse off than my father, people like poor Terry fed by tube, kept alive, cared for and loved. I learned that brain injury could be a long time process. Some improve some don’t but that usually after a few years chances of significant improvement diminish. The sad fact of our current state of medical technology is that we can keep people alive that we can’t make better. At what point does treatment become torture and our needs to hold on to a loved ones life become more important than the promise of what awaits after?

So as we watch this ghoulish example of political theater play out I wish those fighting to reinsert the feeding tube could consider what they are attempting to do. These many years ago Crucifixion was preformed for political reasons. In their attempt to prolong this woman’s life, do they not risk the same?

[Russikan]

Yay! A sensible Christian who doesn't spout "right to life" nonsense for someone who is obviously in severe pain.

Listening to the Evil Liberal Media I get pissed off when they say things like "Allowing Terry Schiavo to have her feeding tube reinserted." Which of course implies that she not only knows what is going on but that she wishes to stay in that position.

I am going to selfishly say that I wish she needed a respirator or an iron lung or some other thing that would have caused this issue to be resolved in the first few hours rather than dragging out her life long enough for this to become a political issue. A persons life is not for politicains far from the scene to determine.

[Plato]

I have a big problem with euthanasia. Especially where the subject cannot communicate. The potential of society to make the old feel redundant or selfish relatives to "persuade" is also a big issue.

In Europe we can have a debate about this without a Left/Right polarization or even a religious/atheist one. My father a devout Catholic and a doctor would say "Thou shalt not kill, but must not strive, officiously, to keep alive." He always argued that for most, the hospice system of palliative care would ensure a life lived with dignity and relatively pain free until very near the end. He was a man who bore a chronic disabling illness for years, and ultimately died of bone cancer (very painful) in a hospice. The palliative care he received was excellent. I am sure if they had wanted to "strive officiously" they could have kept him alive longer.

Despite deep misgivings about euthanasia, which this seems to be, I find the spectacle of two legislatures meeting to approve a specific law on this specific case to be quite appalling. The woman is becoming a political football. Surely this is a matter best resolved within existing legislation, by local doctors and judiciary, even by the US Supreme Court if necessary. How reasoned, balanced, informed can legislation passed in such a hurry be? This seems to be more about political point scoring on the part of a deeply illiberal Republican Party than the welfare of Terry.

[Albert]

I agree with your misgivings about euthanasia, the prospect of individuals being encouraged to give up life, before they are ready, to satisfy the needs of others, be they family, medical or insurance, is untenable. I don’t see this case as euthanasia as much as I see it in the inverse.

Our medical technology has evolved to a level approaching miraculous. We can preserve life in situations that would have been impossible even 10 years ago. This has opened up an entirely different ethical quandary that the debate over Terry Schiavo’s life has so far ignored. At what point does treatment cease to be treatment? Most people in the terminal stages of cancer do not wish death even when subjected to pain. Yet most also do not wish to have extraordinary means used to maintain their lives beyond consciousness unless there is a reasonable prognosis of recovery. Unfortunately in this country, many do not take advantage of the health care proxy system to appoint an individual to make decisions if they lose the ability to communicate and worse still they do not talk to their loved ones, while they can, to make their wishes known. This leads to a sad dance in ICU’s in hospitals around this country where often the only rational for maintaining someone’s life is because his or her loved ones cannot let go.

[DRMIZER]

The courts have ruled 20 times. People really should understand the term "Permanent Vegetative State". This would clear up quite a bit of emotional response to this particular case.

What the government has done in the past 24 hours on this matter is rediculous and unlawful. President Bush was awakened at 1: 30 this morning to sign the paper to save this person's life. This is one person. Wouldn't it have been nice if they would have awakened him 2 years ago and saved literally thousands of lives? Anthing to look good politically.

Sorry, thought this was in the political thread. :D

[eugene40]

Just a quick question.... Does anyone know how I can find the news.. Every damn channel has this thing.. Just pull the plug already. Personally I think this is all just a ploy for some 15 minutes of fame. If the husband doesn't want to deal with it anymore file for a divorce and move to cali. Let the parents deal with it. I don't understand why this has to be such a big deal. Though I wonder who is footing the bill for her medical costs. $$$ cause that can be pricy.... But for crying out loud all I want is some news that doesn't involve 1 this case or 2 the child murder in florida as well... There has to be some better news out there somewhere... anything?

[DRMIZER]

I agree, it is not a big deal except in the mind of the press, which has been brought out by the parents and their attorney. The husband promised his wife she would not have to be sustained on artificial means. Mom and dad don't like that, naturally. He is just following through. It's no picnic for him either!

[The Big Bog]

I'm sure the republican headquarters was wallpapered with a veritable pastiche of public opinion polls last week. They've seen how Joe Blow America feels about this issue and by goodness golly, they're going to capitalize on it!

Because we all know that Joe Blow American Voter -- being the vast intellect that he is -- knows MUCH, MUCH more about the state of Mrs. Schiavo's health, mental faculties, and overall well being than does her husband and all those know-it-all doctors. [Homer Simpson]Stupid elitist doctors![/Homer Simpson]

[Albert]

Actually, I placed this in Religion because I find the politics obvious while the religion seems overlooked.

I have a hunch that one of the reasons many people claim to be atheist or agnostic, is a level of personal discomfort with accepted dogmas found in established religion rather than existing in a state of disbelief. If you peal away the political rhetoric, this case is being argued on religious grounds under what I believe is a false context. If we, the professed religious, do not challenge falsehoods when we see them, how can we complain at what has become of our religion?

[Plato]

Actually, I placed this in Religion because I find the politics obvious while the religion seems overlooked.

I have a hunch that one of the reasons many people claim to be atheist or agnostic, is a level of personal discomfort with accepted dogmas found in established religion rather than existing in a state of disbelief. If you peal away the political rhetoric, this case is being argued on religious grounds under what I believe is a false context. If we, the professed religious, do not challenge falsehoods when we see them, how can we complain at what has become of our religion?

Looks like Bush has nationalized religion. I think the same thing could be coming in Britain.

[Strel]

I'm sure the republican headquarters was wallpapered with a veritable pastiche of public opinion polls last week. They've seen how Joe Blow America feels about this issue and by goodness golly, they're going to capitalize on it!

Because we all know that Joe Blow American Voter -- being the vast intellect that he is -- knows MUCH, MUCH more about the state of Mrs. Schiavo's health, mental faculties, and overall well being than does her husband and all those know-it-all doctors. [Homer Simpson]Stupid elitist doctors![/Homer Simpson]


NPR just reported a poll that showed that 71% of Americans polled think the government should back off and that the feeding tube should be removed.

[The Big Bog]

NPR just reported a poll that showed that 71% of Americans polled think the government should back off and that the feeding tube should be removed.
Well, then I guess the repubs now are doing a ...

[Homer Simpson] DOH! [/Homer Simpson]

[Strel]

Well, then I guess the repubs now are doing a ...

[Homer Simpson] DOH! [/Homer Simpson]


The really hilarious thing is, we can probably find a post in one of these threads about how the "activist courts" are going against the will of the "majority of the people" or some such nonsense. :rolleyes:

[The Big Bog]

The really hilarious thing is, we can probably find a post in one of these threads about how the "activist courts" are going against the will of the "majority of the people" or some such nonsense. :rolleyes:
Oh I've already thought of that! Been there done that. You know good and well that's where this is headed.

[Albert]

Politically it is yet another example of politicians attempting to look like they are doing something without actually doing anything. The hastily fashioned legislation only kicks the question to federal court where it will most likely be dropped like a lead balloon.

[cpwill]

"right to life" nonsense

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life......
ctd

;) it's not just those crazy christians who think that americans have a right to life; unless, of course, you're willing to admit that America was founded as a Christian nation......... :p



Albert: you may find it interesting to read another (http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/gurdon200503220755.asp) rather original christian look on the matter, but it kinda has some required reading first :o.

[bowerbird]

I work in ICU so I know first hand and upfront the "price" of life. The real question is how much technological assistance should we continue for someone who is unable to perform basic functions??? I have no problem with continuing lifetime ventilation for someone with say, ondine's syndrome, where they do not breathe at night but I have a real problem with continuing some of these extraordinary measures to keep someone with such a poor quality of life "alive".

[Russikan]

Yes Cp I am sure that the founders were thinking about feeding tubes and respirators when they wrote that. They certainly were not saying that we should avoid the death healthy people as a policy. They were obviously saying we should never let anyone who has even the remotess possibility of not being dead (even if they are not alive) die.

Mandatory cryogenic freezings before death. We would not want someone with cancer to end up dying on us.

[bowerbird]

I would like someone to define where we draw the line.

Do we do quaruple bypass operations on 95 year olds knowing that their chance of survival is only 10%?

Those who say "life at any cost" are rarely those paying the price.

[Albert]

Yes, but again these arguments sidestep the religious questions entirely don’t they. If we are Christians, we believe that our human bodies accept the Holy Spirit and that this spirit resides in us as long as we accept it and our human bodies live. At the point of death our spirits are released and carry our souls into heaven. So what religious pretext justifies keeping a body at the point of death, alive?

Don’t scriptures tell us that those who cling to life will surely lose it? This isn’t a right to life case or even is it about the right to die. It’s about a family that can’t let go and the hypocrites who are using their unfortunate plight to promote a political agenda. This poor woman started dieing 15 years ago, its time to let her go.

[Chidi]

As christians I would have thought you would be happy to release her to "God" but it seems you would rather torture her spirit by keeping it entombed in a useless body. The contradiction continues even outside of the Bible :rolleyes:

[DRMIZER]

As christians I would have thought you would be happy to release her to "God" but it seems you would rather torture her spirit by keeping it entombed in a useless body. The contradiction continues even outside of the Bible :rolleyes:Good point. Christians want to go to heaven, they just aren't in a hurry. :lol:

[DRMIZER]

Too, considering that Terri is a Christian and believes in the bible, . . . . . .As Elvis' manager used to say. . . . . ."Elvis has left the building." So has Terri! She is already in heaven. . . . . .only the body is left. . . . .the spirit said bye, bye a long time ago. Thank you and good night. (The rest of the goodnight speech at the concert.)

[Hydrok]

Dont really have a whole lot of time to read everything, But I feel the need to err on the side of life on this one. It's heart wrenching to see someone who is actually animate taken off life support. If she was 100% comatose and unresponsive it would be a little easier for me to deal with it. Watching the footage on the news all morning is not a cheery feeling.

[julierep]

Dont really have a whole lot of time to read everything, But I feel the need to err on the side of life on this one. It's heart wrenching to see someone who is actually animate taken off life support. If she was 100% comatose and unresponsive it would be a little easier for me to deal with it. Watching the footage on the news all morning is not a cheery feeling.

I agree with you, Hydrok. If she is showing signs of stimuli, then she still has life left in her.

[::Major_Baker::]

I agree with you, Hydrok. If she is showing signs of stimuli, then she still has life left in her.
And if those stimuli are determined to be simply reflexes by, say, people with advanced degrees in neurology?

Hydrok, don't use that phrase, Fon news and Bush use this in the deepest hypocrisy, I don't want to have to lump you with them.

Julie, why not let the poor woman go to her God? Would you want to live as she is, or watch your children live as she is, with a non-funtioning brain?

[julierep]

And if those stimuli are determined to be simply reflexes by, say, people with advanced degrees in neurology?

Hydrok, don't use that phrase, Fon news and Bush use this in the deepest hypocrisy, I don't want to have to lump you with them.

Julie, why not let the poor woman go to her God? Would you want to live as she is, or watch your children live as she is, with a non-funtioning brain?

What about the ones who had disagreed? The ones with degrees in neurology?

[Strel]

What about the ones who had disagreed? The ones with degrees in neurology?


Julie I can make a paid expert witness say anything I want. I used to do it all the time.

But the CT scans do not lie. This woman is not responding, and has no chance of recovery. That there are physicians willing to say otherwise is just an example of the kind of shenanigans I used to see when I prosecuted them back in the 90's.

[Joao DaSilva]

Julie,
Ever pithed a frog in Bio 101?

[JD3]

I agree with you, Hydrok. If she is showing signs of stimuli, then she still has life left in her.

That is not actually true. I saw a real dead person sit up, but he was still dead.

Her movements are involuntary. She will not recover.

[JD3]

Julie I can make a paid expert witness say anything I want. I used to do it all the time.

But the CT scans do not lie. This woman is not responding, and has no chance of recovery. That there are physicians willing to say otherwise is just an example of the kind of shenanigans I used to see when I prosecuted them back in the 90's.

This being true has helped create the circus we now have. Those saying she can recover must know better. That makes them scum no matter how they justify it to themselves. :mad:

[Dangerrmouse]

As DRMIZER said, Terri left long ago. All that is left is the shell she used to live in, she just left the lights on and they can be turned off now.

[Albert]

This being true has helped create the circus we now have. Those saying she can recover must know better. That makes them scum no matter how they justify it to themselves. :mad:
And it is this circus that object to so much. I watched a few minutes of Hardball last night the bald faced lies were tossed around like beach balls while every heartstring was pulled.

As I have said, I don’t hold Terri’s parents responsible for holding on to false hope but let’s face it, false hope is cruel because it robs people caught by it the benefit of healing. People who feed on it are monsters.

History tells us that the Roman form of crucifixion could last days. Guards were posted to insure that the victim’s families wouldn’t give their loved ones poison or otherwise end their suffering. Occasionally a Roman Guard would take pity on the victim and break their legs causing them to suffocate. According to scriptures Jesus lasted less than half a day. He was able to give up his soul. In this sad drama, who are the Romans and who are the Christians?

[julierep]

That is not actually true. I saw a real dead person sit up, but he was still dead.

Her movements are involuntary. She will not recover.

Thats pretty scary about the dead person :eek: , but I know that does happen. As far as the movements being involuntary, that would be like spasms and rigidity of the muscles. From the videos Ive seen, she responds in making noises and smiling. Have you heard if her eyes are fixed and dilated? They dont look like it to me, but then again, I dont know how old those tapes are.

[Captain America]

Through this entire fiasco, I have only seen the basic 10 second video clip that everyone else has seen. I wonder why?

[Joao DaSilva]

Julie, has it ever occurred to you that if you film a person in a vegatative state long enough, and edit the results, they will appear to respond to lots of stuff.

The medical community (except for one quack the Jeb Bush people dredged up, who may not even be a certified Neurologist) has said we are looking at a shell whose occupant has gone on to meet God.

Again, have you ever pithed a frog in Bio 101?

[julierep]

Julie, has it ever occurred to you that if you film a person in a vegatative state long enough, and edit the results, they will appear to respond to lots of stuff.

The medical community (except for one quack the Jeb Bush people dredged up, who may not even be a certified Neurologist) has said we are looking at a shell whose occupant has gone on to meet God.

Again, have you ever pithed a frog in Bio 101?

Yes, But I let my partner do all of that. I just kinda sat there disgusted by the smell.

[Michele]

***? The cruxificion of Terri? just in time for the resurrection. Ah Hah perhaps she is christ and on Easter Sunday she will stupify as all by all at once rising from her bed? Wouldn't that be something.

[JD3]

Thats pretty scary about the dead person :eek: , but I know that does happen. As far as the movements being involuntary, that would be like spasms and rigidity of the muscles. From the videos Ive seen, she responds in making noises and smiling. Have you heard if her eyes are fixed and dilated? They dont look like it to me, but then again, I dont know how old those tapes are.

No, they are consistent with her condition. They are not purposeful. And she looks like she responds sometimes, but then she doesn't doesn't other times. That is because the response has nothing to do with the stimuli. They are just random movements.

[DRMIZER]

As DRMIZER said, Terri left long ago. All that is left is the shell she used to live in, she just left the lights on and they can be turned off now.Good analogy!

[DRMIZER]

***? The cruxificion of Terri? just in time for the resurrection. Ah Hah perhaps she is christ and on Easter Sunday she will stupify as all by all at once rising from her bed? Wouldn't that be something.Yes it would!

I love your sig. statements.

[julierep]

No, they are consistent with her condition. They are not purposeful. And she looks like she responds sometimes, but then she doesn't doesn't other times. That is because the response has nothing to do with the stimuli. They are just random movements.

I dont know. Im not there to clinically assess her. It is hard to assess someone over the tv...I have no idea what they should do. I would only give my professional advice if I was standing over her bedside and saw all of the doctors notes. This is just not a good situation for anyone. I feel sorry for the parents and her, the parents because of them not wanting to lose their child and the fact that they still have faith. Her, well because, of the obvious.

[JD3]

I dont know. Im not there to clinically assess her. It is hard to assess someone over the tv...I have no idea what they should do. I would only give my professional advice if I was standing over her bedside and saw all of the doctors notes. This is just not a good situation for anyone. I feel sorry for the parents and her, the parents because of them not wanting to lose their child and the fact that they still have faith. Her, well because, of the obvious.


I feel sorry for the parents as well, but science is science:

It is now well established in the literature and among clinicians with over 3 decades of experience in this condition that, for both children and adults in vegetative states secondary to hypoxic-ischemic encephalopathy, the chance of any meaningful recovery beyond 3-6 months is negligible.


http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/12720.html


She will not recover and those promoting it are talking minor points and ignoring the major one. People not related and with no agenda have confirmed that she doesn't track or respond to stimuli. Those muddying the water should be ashamed. This is a hard enough situation and a difficult enough debate without the deceit.

[julierep]

I feel sorry for the parents as well, but science is science:

It is now well established in the literature and among clinicians with over 3 decades of experience in this condition that, for both children and adults in vegetative states secondary to hypoxic-ischemic encephalopathy, the chance of any meaningful recovery beyond 3-6 months is negligible.


http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/12720.html


She will not recover and those promoting it are talking minor points and ignoring the major one. People not related and with no agenda have confirmed that she doesn't track or respond to stimuli. Those muddying the water should be ashamed. This is a hard enough situation and a difficult enough debate without the deceit.

I do agree with not recovering from such a state because of hypoxia or ischemia after a year. Like a stroke victim, there chances of recovering damaged responses diminish after 1 year.

[Russikan]

Well julie you have already proven if not as knowledgeable much more wise then the Senate, ones with degrees have been putting forward their theories but none of them have actually seen her.

Dispicable politics wise the worst thing I have seen is Jeb Bushs attempt to make himself her legal gardian. He doesn't care about her, he won't work towards recovery (even if it were possible). If anyone deserves custody it would be the parents or the husband. Jeb Bush with custody would be the same as me.

[heel31ok]

The courts have ruled 20 times. People really should understand the term "Permanent Vegetative State". This would clear up quite a bit of emotional response to this particular case.

What the government has done in the past 24 hours on this matter is rediculous and unlawful. President Bush was awakened at 1: 30 this morning to sign the paper to save this person's life. This is one person. Wouldn't it have been nice if they would have awakened him 2 years ago and saved literally thousands of lives? Anthing to look good politically.

Sorry, thought this was in the political thread. :D
Congress has jurisdiction over the courts and can legally overturn a decision. I hope they do.

[heel31ok]

Pandora's box has been opened! If she was a real vegetable1000's would be protesting to save her life.

[JD3]

Pandora's box has been opened! If she was a real vegetable1000's would be protesting to save her life.

Just means they are wrong. Nothing more. :sorry:

[Joao DaSilva]

Julie,
I spoke of pithing a frog because I think that is pretty close to what we have in Ms Schiavo's condition: a body being kept functioning by a medula oblongota, with the rest of the brain dead for all intent and purpose.

I've come to see that this really isn't about a woman in a Florida hospice at all, but about the scheme of Karl Rove to neutralize US law, in which he is being aided by the Religious Right and our Corporate Media.

[USA-1]

Congress has jurisdiction over the courts and can legally overturn a decision. I hope they do.
No they can't.

[Joao DaSilva]

FYI, USA-1, that is what Fox, our state owned media outlet, is saying.

[USA-1]

I always thought that The Supreme Court has the last say. If not, then why do they exist?

[Joao DaSilva]

It does, USA-1.

However, there is an ongoing war waged being against democracy in general and the US Constution in specific by the governing corporate oligarchy in Washington.

[USA-1]

It does, USA-1.

However, there is an ongoing war waged being against democracy in general and the US Constution in specific by the governing corporate oligarchy in Washington.
OK, I see where you're coming from.

[Joao DaSilva]

Not just me.

There is an 100-page report which was released by Rep John Conyers (D-Mich) which documents their last caper (prior to this one) back in Nov 04.

Or simply go to Freepress.com.

[mahayana]

I'm glad this was put in Religion and Philosophy, because I think that's where the profound questions about this case reside.

The politics is simpler, mainly pragmatism. If court precedents were established to overturn medical judgements, the courts would be flooded, medicare would go broke, organ donation would be destroyed, our one suicide loophole would be closed (no more right to decide beforehand that "no extraordinary measures" be taken ). Too many people affected, too much money, too many legal implications, for the courts to rule to keep her alive. The conservative thing is to keep the present system as it is.