I converted to Christianity

[Senor Herberto]

Once i was a wiccan and cast magic all the time. Recently i had a profound religious experience. I communicated with God and realized what i had been doing was not what God wanted. God warns us in the Bible not to mess with witchcraft or consult with soothsayers.

I realized the danger of evil, hell, satan and his demons and the consequences and unlove of the misguided magic i was casting. I renounced the things i saw were evil and asked for God's mercy and forgiveness and followed the advice of God's angels. I found Jesus, or he found me, and since then i have overcome much trouble and confusion in my life and grown in love and goodness and service to God. I have been saved from evil's grasp.

God is good, and so much more powerful than evil. I love you God.

:angel:

[eugene40]

Once i was a wiccan and cast magic all the time. Recently i had a profound religious experience. I communicated with God and realized what i had been doing was not what God wanted. God warns us in the Bible not to mess with witchcraft or consult with soothsayers.

I realized the danger of evil, hell, satan and his demons and the consequences and unlove of the misguided magic i was casting. I renounced the things i saw were evil and asked for God's mercy and forgiveness and followed the advice of God's angels. I found Jesus, or he found me, and since then i have overcome much trouble and confusion in my life and grown in love and goodness and service to God. I have been saved from evil's grasp.

God is good, and so much more powerful than evil. I love you God.

:angel:


Damn,,, lost another one.... At least be a good christian,, if you are looking for an example,, talk to Larani and Julierep. And being evil isn't so bad.... are you sure you want to give it all up.

[JoeR]

Wicca is silly anyways

[eugene40]

Wicca is silly anyways


ehh so is christianity in a lot of respects.. ;)

[mataj]

Great Old Cthulhu will eat you anyway.

[green lantern]

Once i was a wiccan and cast magic all the time. Recently i had a profound religious experience. I communicated with God and realized what i had been doing was not what God wanted. God warns us in the Bible not to mess with witchcraft or consult with soothsayers.

I realized the danger of evil, hell, satan and his demons and the consequences and unlove of the misguided magic i was casting. I renounced the things i saw were evil and asked for God's mercy and forgiveness and followed the advice of God's angels. I found Jesus, or he found me, and since then i have overcome much trouble and confusion in my life and grown in love and goodness and service to God. I have been saved from evil's grasp.

God is good, and so much more powerful than evil. I love you God.

:angel:
:D :D :cool:

[cpwill]

:D:D:D:clap:
Amen, and welcome to the family :)

[Fei Hu]

Wicca is silly anyways

And dangerous, especially in that New Emgland area. I am sure self presevation and not being burned at the stake provided some incentive for Señor H to convert.

[JoeR]

caveat to avoid offending any wiccans - I find all religions silly to some extent.

[::Major_Baker::]

Just curious, but why do so many people feel that they NEED a religion--is it the need to be accepted?


congrats herberto.

[Churlant]

Some of my best friends are Wiccans...

...no, I don't know why I felt the need to post this.

-JC

[poly_nightmare]

I'm Christian....and evil...though julierep may disagree with that.

To sorta answer your question, I have my faith, but I don't think I need an organized religion. I can do it alone.

[Churlant]

Just curious, but why do so many people feel that they NEED a religion--is it the need to be accepted?


congrats herberto.

Religion is incredibly valuable as a coping mechanism, among other things. It also gives people a purpose - purpose being tied into the human identity to begin with.

-JC

[JoeR]

Personally I feel stronger without religion. I've always seen religious devotion as more of a crutch. Nothing wrong with it if you need it, but easier to walk if you can without one.

[Churlant]

Personally I feel stronger without religion. I've always seen religious devotion as more of a crutch. Nothing wrong with it if you need it, but easier to walk if you can without one.

Hey, nothing applies to everyone :) You may walk long and far without religion... however, all other things being equal, if a horror beyond imagination were to be visited upon you and Julierep, for instance, my money would be on Julie - you would crack first. No offense ;)

-JC

[jamesrage]

Once i was a wiccan and cast magic all the time. Recently i had a profound religious experience. I communicated with God and realized what i had been doing was not what God wanted. God warns us in the Bible not to mess with witchcraft or consult with soothsayers.

I realized the danger of evil, hell, satan and his demons and the consequences and unlove of the misguided magic i was casting. I renounced the things i saw were evil and asked for God's mercy and forgiveness and followed the advice of God's angels. I found Jesus, or he found me, and since then i have overcome much trouble and confusion in my life and grown in love and goodness and service to God. I have been saved from evil's grasp.

God is good, and so much more powerful than evil. I love you God.

I detect alot of sarcasm.

But if it is not sarcasim I apologize and I say congradulations.

[Captain America]

Personally, I'd prefer a wiccan as a next door neighbor.... but that's just me.

[::Major_Baker::]

Hey, nothing applies to everyone :) You may walk long and far without religion... however, all other things being equal, if a horror beyond imagination were to be visited upon you and Julierep, for instance, my money would be on Julie - you would crack first. No offense ;)

-JC
I beg to differ.

[Churlant]

I beg to differ.

I know :)

-JC

[julierep]

Congratulations.....That is great news. Thanks eugene for saying that....and thanks churlant for putting your money on me!!!!! : ) oh...and Poly, YOUR ARE EVIL!!! : )

[Churlant]

....and thanks churlant for putting your money on me!!!!! : )

Don't thank me, thank God ;)

-JC

[JoeR]

Personally, I'd prefer a wiccan as a next door neighbor.... but that's just me.

They'd probably have good landscaping, what with the respect for nature and all

[poly_nightmare]

oh...and Poly, YOUR ARE EVIL!!! : )

Yea, I know. I have some horns growing on my head.

[julierep]

Yea, I know. I have some horns growing on my head.

Uh huh ;)

[Joao DaSilva]

Parabens, Humberto!

My wife threw some water on me and said I was a Catholic.

I still have trouble going to my left, and dunking is out of the question, but I do feel better.

[poly_nightmare]

I'm that evil Christian hiding in a Catholic school

[julierep]

I'm that evil Christian hiding in a Catholic school


Yea...but you know what they say about those catholic schools. Do you teach at an all girls school?? :D

[eugene40]

Personally, I'd prefer a wiccan as a next door neighbor.... but that's just me.



A hot female wiccan,,,, yea thats the ticket :D

[julierep]

A hot female wiccan,,,, yea thats the ticket :D

What the heck is a wiccan?

[xexon]

Modern witchcraft.

Wicca, like other religions, has its own kind of denominational differences.

I was Wiccan myself, once upon a time...




x

[julierep]

Modern witchcraft.

Wicca, like other religions, has its own kind of denominational differences.

I was Wiccan myself, once upon a time...




x

Lord, yall dont start casting spells on me.

[poly_nightmare]

Wiccan = Witchcraft

OOOOOKKKKKKKK

[xexon]

Magic is quite real, but as with Christianity, many are called, but few are chosen.

Takes a well disciplined mind. 99.9999% of these "New-agers" are just followers of their own ego. (You're a witch? Ooooohhh.)

I left because I outgrew it. If you want to work spells and such, it is no longer a path to take you out of this world. It becomes a trap to hold you within it.



x

[JoeR]

I've never seen nor experienced anything that would convince me of it, thus never remotely had any belief in spellcasting and that ilk. Aside from that Wicca is at its core the same thing as all religions, the rule of reciprocity. (Well almost all anyways)

[xexon]

You are as likely to meet a real witch as you are to meet a real disciple of Jesus.

Very rare.

True witches have no interest in making themselves known.






x

[JD3]

Lord, yall dont start casting spells on me.

Don't worry, if you don't believe, nothing will happen to you. ;)

[el nopal]

I'm only religious in moments. I guess I have "religious moments."

You know.... those times..... When you have a horrendous hangover, and start conversing with your God of choice, just to say "make it go away God, please make it go away."

Personally, I prefer to converse with Buddha, because the Buddha I know doesn't talk much, and doesn't have a staring problem.

[cpwill]

I've never seen nor experienced anything that would convince me of it, thus never remotely had any belief in spellcasting and that ilk. Aside from that Wicca is at its core the same thing as all religions, the rule of reciprocity. (Well almost all anyways)

:raises eyebrow: and the christian ideal of forgiveness?

[JoeR]

The core of any religion, at least in my opinion, is the moral code. The moral code of almost all religions, as well as secular moral codes, can be pretty much whittled down to the rule of reciprocity aka the golden rule.

[Chidi]

From one delusion to another, pity. Why do people have no faith in them selfs and those aroun them and instead feel the need to worship something greater than themselves instead of empowering themselves. Must you all be slaves to the "almighty"? Human kind will not survive unless we have faith in ourselves and not some mystical magician.

[JD3]

:raises eyebrow: and the christian ideal of forgiveness?

Something I'd like to see more of.

[cpwill]

indeed :)

[Captain America]

The Wiccan Rede says the same thing as the christian "golden rule" basically. The few Wiccans I have known were really cool people. I give their religion about as much creedence as I give any of them though. (Which ain't a helluva lot.)

Myths, legends, and superstitious gobble-de-gook. I'll take science, logic and the dictates of reason over any religion any day of the week.

[JoeR]

Aye-aye, Captain.

[Turenne]

Looks like i'm the only one who thinks that Senor is being sarastic.

If not then i'm disapointed in you Senor,that you would join a glorified cult <MOD EDIT> GENERALIZATIONS NOT ALLOWED<MOD EDIT>

[Churlant]

Looks like i'm the only one who thinks that Senor is being sarastic.

If not then i'm disapointed in you Senor,that you would join a glorified cult <MOD EDIT> GENERALIZATIONS NOT ALLOWED<MOD EDIT>

Heh... that's harsh :p even by my standards... (And depending on who you ask, I don't have any)

-JC

[AgentM]

Looks like i'm the only one who thinks that Senor is being sarastic.

I also wondered if that was sarcasm that I was detecting, but one can never be sure on the net.

[Turenne]

Heh... that's harsh :p even by my standards... (And depending on who you ask, I don't have any)

-JC

From my experience,its those looking for answers in there time of weakness that cling to religion 100%.People close to dying or desperate.Its no coincidence that Catholicism and Islam had and currently have there haydays while the surronding people live in ignorance and poverty.Hence my,slightly harsh admitedly,sick and ignorant remark. :shrug:

Anyway,church is full of people chanting and praising.Strange kind of God that demands comnplete obediance and praise isn't it? :rolleyes:

[Churlant]

From my experience,its those looking for answers in there time of weakness that cling to religion 100%.People close to dying or desperate.Its no coincidence that Catholicism and Islam had and currently have there haydays while the surronding people live in ignorance and poverty.Hence my,slightly harsh admitedly,sick and ignorant remark. :shrug:

Anyway,church is full of people chanting and praising.Strange kind of God that demands comnplete obediance and praise isn't it? :rolleyes:

In many ways I agree... Technically the various religions are cults ;) I'm not even sure what else you said, as it was edited before I got here (cursed mods!). I'm just saying it was harsh :p Very few around here deserve it, anyway.

-JC

[Captain America]

A cult is any religion other than your own.....

[Churlant]

A cult is any religion other than your own.....

Naw, my religion is a cult as well ;)

-JC

[Viking]

:raises eyebrow: and the christian ideal of forgiveness?


The Christian ideal of forgiveness is like trying to find a single drop of water in a full bucket. Its there but youll be hard pressed to single it out. I would bet that 99% of Christians are hypocrites. Nothing wrong with religion, its the people in it. Most people are basically greedy and scummy at a certain level, even in the highest order. Thats why, being raised Roman Catholic, going to Catholic school, alter boy, blah blah blah....I dont believe in organized religion..I had my fill. Ive seen too many "religious" people from both Christianity and Judaism be complete f-heads. Religious forgiveness... I think thats a miracle in itself to be honest.
I believe in God, try to do my best, treat people as I wish to be treated, and try not to mess up too badly... but you will never see me in church nor being seen at any organized religious function, beit Christian, Jewish, or other... believing in God is one thing, believing in organized religion is quite another.

So if you want to go from being a Wiccan to a Christian, youre jumping from one pile of fish to another.

[Senor Herberto]

i did not change because i liked one clubhouse better than the other, it was because i liked good more than evil.

a flaw with any religion is that its view of God is broadcast through its people. "those christians are boring douchebags! their God and the things they claim to believe in must suck and not be worth pursuing." this logic fails bitterly.

if you join a church because of its members, you are not communicating with God.

God's forgiveness and love are boundless, but God will not make you to turn to Him. God does not make a habit of removing your free will, although God will often surround it with lessons made just for you.

[Knightman]

do what you want, and do it well, do it with an open heart and an open mind. When one of those fails stop doing it...............

[Viking]

i did not change because i liked one clubhouse better than the other, it was because i liked good more than evil.

a flaw with any religion is that its view of God is broadcast through its people. "those christians are boring douchebags! their God and the things they claim to believe in must suck and not be worth pursuing." this logic fails bitterly.

if you join a church because of its members, you are not communicating with God.

God's forgiveness and love are boundless, but God will not make you to turn to Him. God does not make a habit of removing your free will, although God will often surround it with lessons made just for you.

2 things....Wicca is not evil and God was around long before Christianity. So if anyone tells you that you cannot talk to God or believe in God without being a Christian...theyre selling something that smells.

[Senor Herberto]

God is eternal.

I used to be wiccan. coming from an ex-wiccan, it is my belief that casting witchcraft is creating evil or unguided magic which is out of tune with God.

[julierep]

2 things....Wicca is not evil and God was around long before Christianity. So if anyone tells you that you cannot talk to God or believe in God without being a Christian...theyre selling something that smells.

I think the Christian label comes with one who believes that Christ died on a cross and rose again. Jewish believe in God also, but not that Christ was the Messiah. I think this is the difference.

[Viking]

God is eternal.

I used to be wiccan. coming from an ex-wiccan, it is my belief that casting witchcraft is creating evil or unguided magic which is out of tune with God.

Then you are the VERY first Wiccan that I have ever met, and I have met a few in my time, that considers Wicca an evil faith. Every Wiccan that I have met, spoke to, read from, bar you, have always said that Wiccans do not even "dabble" in evil because its not a natural thing. Its like the people who think witches, the pentangle and the swastika are all evil symbols... which couldnt be further from the truth. They were around a lot longer than the people who twisted their original meanings to promote their own agenda(s). This sounds like the same thing you are doing, in my opinion, but since I do not know you personally, I could be wrong... but this does sound supsicious at the very least.

I hear ya Julie, but I hear from many Christians that if you arent Christian, they think you dont believe in God. Its the whole "MY" religion is the one true religion nonsense. People, the only animal in the kingdom, can be so arrogant... which should be the eighth deadly sin in my opinion.
I prefer to think myself as being a Godist. I believe in God but not in any organized, or unorganized, religion. I also believe in parts of the bible, but since it was written by man (being inspired by God... sections being debatable) man being inspired by God or not is still falible. The only thing I can blindly trust and have faith in, is myself. After all, God created me that way. Its like my monicker says, I question ALL authority.
Thats just the way I am. And believe me, if Im going to put my blind faith into something or someone, you can rest assure that I will be questioning a lot of things.

[Senor Herberto]

some of it is evil, some of it is merely unguided magic, which is chaos [could look like evil or good, but it is not Godly]. it's like radiation spewing randomly in all directions. any magic you cast, God is stronger, and God is always good.

[Viking]

some of it is evil, some of it is merely unguided magic. it's like radiation spewing randomly in all directions. any magic you cast, God is stronger, and God is always good.

And Christianity is always good? Some of it is evil as well.

[Senor Herberto]

God is always good. You are confusing the actions of flawed christians with the teachings of God.

[Larani]

God is eternal.

I used to be wiccan. coming from an ex-wiccan, it is my belief that casting witchcraft is creating evil or unguided magic which is out of tune with God.

What if all your magic was directed at Helping the poor, Feeding the sick, Stopping War, Helping the injured sick and infirmed, elliminating, vanity, greed corruption, ect ad naseum.

Seems to me Senor Herberto maybe it wasn't the magic you were questioning maybe it was the intentions of your heart?

[Viking]

God is always good. You are confusing the actions of flawed christians with the teachings of God.

Yeah, sure. Let me give you a little advice here...since you just, admittedly, jumped on the bandwagon. Christians, well most, say that the bible was written by man inspired by God. Some say that the bible was written by God period. Either way, start reading from the beginning....as in the Old Testament. Let me know what you think of it.

P.S. Dont come back to me with "well sinners need to be punished"...that throws in the face of an "all loving a good creator". Believe me, I can go on and on here....hearing and reading these teachings from Catholic school. So welcome to Christianity! Dont get me wrong, I dont have anything against God. Just most religions in general and the perverted people in it... especially the ones that condemn and slaughter and/or want to slaughter other people who believe in other religions. 2 come to mind right now. Do you venture to take a guess?

[Churlant]

God is always good. You are confusing the actions of flawed christians with the teachings of God.

Curious... how do you determine who is flawed and who is not?

-JC

[JoeR]

If you are going to believe in God as described in the Old Testement, then there is no way to accept him as good. He behaves just like a human with God powers would.

[Viking]

Curious... how do you determine who is flawed and who is not?

-JC


Now you are just being silly! By the exact same way on how you determine which religion is the true one religion and which the rest are not. Dont you read?? :D

[Churlant]

Now you are just being silly! By the exact same way on how you determine which religion is the true one religion and which the rest are not. Dont you read?? :D

Shhhh... you're going to give me away :p

-JC

[Cedars]

The Christian ideal of forgiveness is like trying to find a single drop of water in a full bucket. Its there but youll be hard pressed to single it out. I would bet that 99% of Christians are hypocrites. Nothing wrong with religion, its the people in it. Most people are basically greedy and scummy at a certain level, even in the highest order. Thats why, being raised Roman Catholic, going to Catholic school, alter boy, blah blah blah....I dont believe in organized religion..I had my fill. Ive seen too many "religious" people from both Christianity and Judaism be complete f-heads. Religious forgiveness... I think thats a miracle in itself to be honest.
I believe in God, try to do my best, treat people as I wish to be treated, and try not to mess up too badly... but you will never see me in church nor being seen at any organized religious function, beit Christian, Jewish, or other... believing in God is one thing, believing in organized religion is quite another.

So if you want to go from being a Wiccan to a Christian, youre jumping from one pile of fish to another.
Religious people, even Christians, ARE simply human. To look at the people who are not following their own doctrine and then accuse the religion of being false is ridiculous. Most people don't realize their own hypocrisy in taking that view-- knowing that people aren't perfect yet expecting them to be just because they subscribe to certain religious beliefs. You are one step in the right direction just to have even realized that it's not the religion but the people in it (and surely not all can be bad in any religion, so it isn't right to generalize that they are all guilty). Do we place blame on the law (say, not to murder) that some people don't follow or blame the person who doesn't follow the law?

[Dangerrmouse]

Curious... how do you determine who is flawed and who is not?
-JC

It's obvious ....or is it?

"Scriptures, n. The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based."
-Ambrose Bierce

[Viking]

It's obvious ....or is it?

"Scriptures, n. The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based."
-Ambrose Bierce

Its all relative. And thats the problem. If you are as screwed up as the leader is... then you are in the righteous. If you are normal, again being relative, and trying to fight powers of tyranny, then you can be cast as the enemy and will be condemned as a "wrong-doer", and in some countries be exterminated. Who is right and who is... a little less right? I think no religion has it totally correct... but then again, Im no child molesting priest or crazy Islamic cleric screaming for the death of America either. So you might have to ask one of them.

Speaking of which, did anyone here hear or see that crazy ***** that was filmed by an undercover camera at a Mosque in Florida? Everyone was yelling "Death to America".....right in our own backyard...talk about scary!

[Churlant]

It's obvious ....or is it?

"Scriptures, n. The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based."
-Ambrose Bierce

I always find it funny when I pose that question... and no one ever responds ;)

-JC

[Senor Herberto]

I used to not believe satan was real. i always knew God was real, but i was sometimes unsure about how God truly behaved or wanted me to behave. it's kind of funny how discovering that satan and evil is real brought me into the Arms of God.

if you're asking me how to behave, you're not getting the freshest fruit. God is where that fruit grows. and i don't mean asking what religions say God wants, i mean asking God what God wants. heck, try it and see what happens.

[rjamortega]

Just curious, but why do so many people feel that they NEED a religion--is it the need to be accepted?


congrats herberto.
(Boy did I get in on this one late)

As to your question, there has to be more than a few reasons but I think "accepted" is one of the lesser reasons. And I suppose it matters what you mean by "religion".

I do not worship in the conventional sense but I do believe in a form of God in the Judeo-Christian sense. My need is this; With everything I've seen and sense in my years I can't help but believe there has to be something bigger and greater than you and me. Otherwise there simply is no need for right, wrong, law, justice...you name it.

[Viking]

it's kind of funny how discovering that satan and evil is real brought me into the Arms of God.

Not that funny. If you really look at things you will find out there is a balance in this world. Everything has its opposite....good and evil my friend.

My need is this; With everything I've seen and sense in my years I can't help but believe there has to be something bigger and greater than you and me. Otherwise there simply is no need for right, wrong, law, justice...you name it.

I dont want to offend you but thats complete crap...the last sentence. I dont know what you have seen or sensed but I can honestly say that even without religion we would still have law and justice with the inate sensibility of right and wrong. Its called human civility. Im sure you probably already know this but many atheists are pretty civil... unless you believe George Bush Sr. in which all atheists are criminals.

[rjamortega]

I dont want to offend you but thats complete crap...the last sentence. I dont know what you have seen or sensed but I can honestly say that even without religion we would still have law and justice with the inate sensibility of right and wrong. Its called human civility. Im sure you probably already know this but many atheists are pretty civil... unless you believe George Bush Sr. in which all atheists are criminals.
:) Hah! I'm sure, I am full of crap in more than one way, but let me explain.

In no way am I saying that without God there would be no goodness to be found in man. I wholeheartedly agree there are many good and decent humans who have no sense or belief at all of God in the conventional sense. What I am saying though is that just because you and a few billion other folks may decide what is goodness and justice, it does not make it so. For a million others truth and decency may be interpreted as any form of mayhem and ugliness. And who is to say they are wrong if it works for them? If it is reality for them? And ultimately, what is the difference when the good and decent athiest dies compared to the evil butcher of men? There is no difference! They both turn to dust with their good and bad deeds. And those who remain, influenced by those same good and bad deeds, follow the same course in time. In other words, if there is no God and no promise of life after death, then nothing really matters as all life ends in nothingness.

Of course you might say that all good works are for the benefit of future generations. You're right! That is a very real possibility. But it still means nothing as mankind is still destined to expire one day and then there is nothing. And what is worse in all this is that as these athiest generations progress, coherent people will realize this truth and life will ultimately yield despair, loneliness and life without hope. And that is the advantage in faith and hope for the believer. "Religion" gives the believer a more profound reason for this life.

Look...I admit I am not sure what God is or if It even exists. I just know that when I look at my children and the joy and love they bring me, I know there is something much much greater than myself, and it certainly isn't you, or the most learned of men, or even my own parents. It is something far greater and far more long-lasting.

Is this just my emotion? It may be. But this is the kind of faith that it takes to keep me on the good path. If I believe your phylsophy on life then I just don't have near as much to cling to.

[JoeR]

I have no religion in my life, but there is no despair. The idea of dying and nothing being after it doesn't bother me one bit. I think most atheists don't have this sense of despair either.

[rjamortega]

I have no religion in my life, but there is no despair. The idea of dying and nothing being after it doesn't bother me one bit. I think most atheists don't have this sense of despair either.
I agree, nothing I am saying is absolute. I say the results of atheism can be despair, lonliness and life without hope. But that will not be the case for many like yourself who have every possibility of coming to your end feeling quite content with your brief moment in the entirety of what in your mind is surely chaos. Perhaps you will die knowing you made a significant contribution to mankind. Or possibly you will simply believe that JoeR was The Bomb. Whatever the case, there will still be many others-past, present and future-who will say, "So what?! JoeR dies, I die, and one day the entire species is extinct. What is it all worth?"

If in spite of all this the atheist can still believe there is value, then without his knowing it he is acknowledging the existance of God (whatever that is, as I like to say). God being something greater than self. Something greater than man that says "be good and prosper".

Actualy JoeR, as I look at myself, I too believe I have no "religion".

[Churlant]

God I knew that last line was going to cause another debate ;)

My only question is this... why should the concept that human life in general, or even in personal, will one day end lead to despair and loss of hope?

That really isn't a logical progression. Perhaps to someone who believes that without a God there is no reason to hope, yes... but for those who didn't believe in God to begin with, I don't see how that faith would inherently cause hopelessness or despair.

-JC

[Viking]

:)If I believe your phylsophy on life then I just don't have near as much to cling to.

Do you know what my philosophy of life is? I think youre jumping the gun on that....

[rjamortega]

God I knew that last line was going to cause another debate ;)

My only question is this... why should the concept that human life in general, or even in personal, will one day end lead to despair and loss of hope?

That really isn't a logical progression. Perhaps to someone who believes that without a God there is no reason to hope, yes... but for those who didn't believe in God to begin with, I don't see how that faith would inherently cause hopelessness or despair.

-JC
The first few sentences of my last post acknowledged that this will not be the case in every life. But it is very possible if the dying atheist or the person who is weak in the belief of God asks himself, "what is it all for if there is nothing but this brief moment on earth?". But you are right, there may be many who die thinking - "eh...no big deal".

[rjamortega]

Do you know what my philosophy of life is? I think youre jumping the gun on that....
You're right. Excuse me for that. I am making assumptions based on your writing. You seem to profess no belief in God. But that does not mean you don't see some purpose in this life... I guess. :confused:

[Churlant]

The first few sentences of my last post acknowledged that this will not be the case in every life. But it is very possible if the dying atheist or the person who is weak in the belief of God asks himself, "what is it all for if there is nothing but this brief moment on earth?". But you are right, there may be many who die thinking - "eh...no big deal".

Did I say that? ;)

I would submit that you are viewing the deaths of others through your own perspective. I really don't understand your requirment of a purpose any more than you can understand my own state of mind... which is simply "Hey. Had a good life... can't argue with that. Time to go."

Contemplating the future or an afterlife doesn't really comfort me any more or less than contemplating an End with nothing... You either go on... or you don't... either way, it happens, so why worry about it?

Truly I'm puzzled... my sense of self-worth is not tied up in whether or not my life has been/will be an impact on the world around me or the world beyond me. It is what it is... and it will be what it will be.

I worry about a lot of things... finances... headaches... prescription drugs... my dental plan.

My eventual death really isn't on that list.

-JC

[rjamortega]

Did I say that? ;)

I would submit that you are viewing the deaths of others through your own perspective. I really don't understand your requirment of a purpose any more than you can understand my own state of mind... which is simply "Hey. Had a good life... can't argue with that. Time to go."

Contemplating the future or an afterlife doesn't really comfort me any more or less than contemplating an End with nothing... You either go on... or you don't... either way, it happens, so why worry about it?

Truly I'm puzzled... my sense of self-worth is not tied up in whether or not my life has been/will be an impact on the world around me or the world beyond me. It is what it is... and it will be what it will be.

I worry about a lot of things... finances... headaches... prescription drugs... my dental plan.

My eventual death really isn't on that list.

-JC
You didn't specifically say that, but I maintain that saying, "Hey. Had a good life... can't argue with that. Time to go." is no more meaningful or valuable than "eh, no big deal".

Also, let me correct something about my own beliefs. I am not sure there is an afterlife. In fact in my mind it is just as possible you are correct...there is nothing else. But I think where we differ is the matter of HOPE. I believe the ultimate purpose in God (whatever God is) is to breed us to be good to eachother. God does not require that we be good to Him/It. He/It is beyond that need.

I am only 53, but already I am seeing the futility of things like "finances... headaches... prescription drugs... my dental plan". Those are mere inconveniences that I must put up with. So to am I beginning to understand the futility of the little physical things I cherish like my guitar, a good round of golf and motorsports. As I progress I find the only things that matter are family, friends and you. This is confusing to me, so the only thing I can chalk it up to is the existance of God. One single force above all else.

[serenity]

You may be right. There are real connections, profound ones, that can't be explained , or not satisfacactorily, by such ideas as "social conditioning", etc.

[Churlant]

You didn't specifically say that, but I maintain that saying, "Hey. Had a good life... can't argue with that. Time to go." is no more meaningful or valuable than "eh, no big deal".

Also, let me correct something about my own beliefs. I am not sure there is an afterlife. In fact in my mind it is just as possible you are correct...there is nothing else. But I think where we differ is the matter of HOPE. I believe the ultimate purpose in God (whatever God is) is to breed us to be good to eachother. God does not require that we be good to Him/It. He/It is beyond that need.

I am only 53, but already I am seeing the futility of things like "finances... headaches... prescription drugs... my dental plan". Those are mere inconveniences that I must put up with. So to am I beginning to understand the futility of the little physical things I cherish like my guitar, a good round of golf and motorsports. As I progress I find the only things that matter are family, friends and you. This is confusing to me, so the only thing I can chalk it up to is the existance of God. One single force above all else.

Dangit.. would you stop assuming? I never said I believe there is nothing... I, in fact, believe there IS an afterlife :p

Anyway... I simply disagree with your assessment of requirements for a 'purpose' in life. I don't believe faith in a God is necessary to have a meaningful life or a purpose to it. I don't believe God is responsible for providing these things either... I don't believe God is the motivating or originating factor behind basic morals or emotions. I believe he can be, should a person choose to make Him their source of motivations, just as many other symbols in everyday life motivate people in many different ways... but I also believe you can life a good, meaningful, purpose-driven life as an atheist.

-JC

[rjamortega]

Dangit.. would you stop assuming? I never said I believe there is nothing... I, in fact, believe there IS an afterlife :p

Anyway... I simply disagree with your assessment of requirements for a 'purpose' in life. I don't believe faith in a God is necessary to have a meaningful life or a purpose to it. I don't believe God is responsible for providing these things either... I don't believe God is the motivating or originating factor behind basic morals or emotions. I believe he can be, should a person choose to make Him their source of motivations, just as many other symbols in everyday life motivate people in many different ways... but I also believe you can life a good, meaningful, purpose-driven life as an atheist.

-JC
AH! How embarassing. Ok, I'll try to knock it off. But just try to see my argument as directed towards that of having nothing greater than this physical life.
Maybe you are assuming I see God as some larger-than-life being who hands down all laws of nature. I don't. I'm not sure what form God is in, but I do believe God is the origin of morals, emotions, ethics and all goodness.

[Churlant]

AH! How embarassing. Ok, I'll try to knock it off. But just try to see my argument as directed towards that of having nothing greater than this physical life.
Maybe you are assuming I see God as some larger-than-life being who hands down all laws of nature. I don't. I'm not sure what form God is in, but I do believe God is the origin of morals, emotions, ethics and all goodness.

Ah... well then that there is our difference of opinion :) I believe we manufacture our own morals, emotions, ethics and those things that pass as 'good' and 'bad' :)

God might still get in the way now and then... that rascal.

-JC

[rjamortega]

Churl,

I have a response but I really need to attend to my boss' business now. Either later, tonight or tomorrow I will add to this.
Thanks for your interest. Have a great day.

[Viking]

You're right. Excuse me for that. I am making assumptions based on your writing. You seem to profess no belief in God. But that does not mean you don't see some purpose in this life... I guess. :confused:

Ah, on the contrary. I do believe in God.

What I don’t believe is…..organized religion. The funny thing here is that soooooooo many people get different meanings from different scripture. Now how many times and in how many different languages has the “Holy Book(s)” been revised and translated. For instance, you can give me a meaningful sentence, I will translate it into German or Italian and you will not get the exact same meaning….in most (not all) cases. Now we are talking about scripture, the word of God….to which I believe that the original language at the time was Aramaic, but I could be wrong. From what I have researched, this is not a very easy language to translate in, if at all. Regardless, translate that into Hebrew, German, English, etc., and you are definitely not going to get the same meaning.
I said all that to lead up to this…..there are too many religions, with too many leaders saying that they are the “ONE” and “TRUE” religion. I say they are all full of it BECAUSE…..they claim that God is all knowing and all wise. I think everyone, with faith, can agree on that. But since they also say that we (humans) are infinitely “less” wise than God, how then can the leaders say, and make their congregation believe, that their religion is right and the rest are wrong. And they do….Roman Catholics believe it, Protestants believe it, Jews believe it, Mormons believe it, you damn well better believe that the Muslims/Islamics believe that. After all, if you aren’t a Muslim and don’t believe in Islam, you are marked for punishment. Ah yes, organized religion at its finest. Without a doubt the most peaceful religion is budhaism…I just wonder why they don’t advertise like every other religion does.

[rjamortega]

Viking,

All any religion is is a pathway to a more peaceful life. Some religions refer to it as Holy. Not knowing much about Buddhism or Hinduism I will just say that as much as I've learned all the major monotheisms are grounded in the same basics of life. It is just man who introduces all of the conflicting interpretations whether it happens in recent studies or thousands of years ago when men were first compiling their beliefs into what they thought was the word of God.

But what I will say in support of organized religion is that it does a much better job of bringing man into the "light". It is my opinion (and only an opinion) that without organized religion, with all of its ceremony and traditions, a larger majority of people would become lost in an unhealthy form of self-fullfilment. With "religion" more people are "coerced" into restricting potentialy unhealthy practices. From this we can enjoy safer societies.

And this is not to say there aren't plenty of humans who are capable of living "holy" lives without religion or God. I say it is less possible though because I am one who does not believe man is born good, or bad. Man is just born selfish and something bigger than the teachings of Viking, Churlant, the Pope, Billy Graham, Karl Marx, or the worlds greatest Phds' is needed to harness this selfishness.

[Churlant]

And this is not to say there aren't plenty of humans who are capable of living "holy" lives without religion or God. I say it is less possible though because I am one who does not believe man is born good, or bad. Man is just born selfish and something bigger than the teachings of Viking, Churlant, the Pope, Billy Graham, Karl Marx, or the worlds greatest Phds' is needed to harness this selfishness.

True... the teachings of my parents, and my own teachings to my children, etc... personally I think my parents did quite a decent job, if I do say so myself :p I hope to one day do the same for my own demonseed... err... children...

-JC

[Viking]

Viking,

All any religion is is a pathway to a more peaceful life. Some religions refer to it as Holy. Not knowing much about Buddhism or Hinduism I will just say that as much as I've learned all the major monotheisms are grounded in the same basics of life. It is just man who introduces all of the conflicting interpretations whether it happens in recent studies or thousands of years ago when men were first compiling their beliefs into what they thought was the word of God.

But what I will say in support of organized religion is that it does a much better job of bringing man into the "light". It is my opinion (and only an opinion) that without organized religion, with all of its ceremony and traditions, a larger majority of people would become lost in an unhealthy form of self-fullfilment. With "religion" more people are "coerced" into restricting potentialy unhealthy practices. From this we can enjoy safer societies.

And this is not to say there aren't plenty of humans who are capable of living "holy" lives without religion or God. I say it is less possible though because I am one who does not believe man is born good, or bad. Man is just born selfish and something bigger than the teachings of Viking, Churlant, the Pope, Billy Graham, Karl Marx, or the worlds greatest Phds' is needed to harness this selfishness.

Technically you can’t live a “holy” life without God….kind of hand in hand there. But Im just nitpicking. I agree with most of what you say. But as you say that you “THINK” that organized religion helps bring man into the “light”. I say that I “KNOW” that religion helps stifle free thought. Its been proven through the ages. Again, being brought up Roman Catholic, Catholic Schools, alter boy… this is what I have experienced. Regardless, I don’t believe in organized religion anymore and most likely never will again, unless it drastically changes. Changes, meaning taking what religious leaders “THINK” they know….out of the equation. I could give a crap less what these self promoting amadons think. We are here to discover for ourselves, not be sheep. Let me ask you, and anyone here who wants to answer this…and Im being extremely serious….If a man came up to you and asked you to step off a cliff, but saying he was God said that if you had faith in him he would save you from falling to your death. Would you do it? I know I wouldn’t.
If you need organized religion to help fulfill yourself, that is your prerogative. Mine, well I think you already know that.

[rjamortega]

Technically you can’t live a “holy” life without God….kind of hand in hand there. But Im just nitpicking. I agree with most of what you say. But as you say that you “THINK” that organized religion helps bring man into the “light”. I say that I “KNOW” that religion helps stifle free thought. Its been proven through the ages. Again, being brought up Roman Catholic, Catholic Schools, alter boy… this is what I have experienced. Regardless, I don’t believe in organized religion anymore and most likely never will again, unless it drastically changes. Changes, meaning taking what religious leaders “THINK” they know….out of the equation. I could give a crap less what these self promoting amadons think. We are here to discover for ourselves, not be sheep. Let me ask you, and anyone here who wants to answer this…and Im being extremely serious….If a man came up to you and asked you to step off a cliff, but saying he was God said that if you had faith in him he would save you from falling to your death. Would you do it? I know I wouldn’t.
If you need organized religion to help fulfill yourself, that is your prerogative. Mine, well I think you already know that.
A question like this seems to confuse believers with fanatics and fools. I know they exist but I do not know one person who would fall for such a ploy.
A bible story that teaches good lessons does not mean it is to be reinacted in the physical world. :confused:

[Viking]

A question like this seems to confuse believers with fanatics and fools. I know they exist but I do not know one person who would fall for such a ploy.
A bible story that teaches good lessons does not mean it is to be reinacted in the physical world. :confused:

Charles Manson, David Koresh, Jonestown, that silly little comet that gave Nike bad advertising......you dont know one person who would fall for such a ploy??? Come on! And thats the short list. Granted Looney Charley wasnt exactly the "Christian" type but the others were. Cults, religion, potato, potAto...Again, everyone pulls out their own meanings from scriptures, either from the bible or from the leader, beit priest, minister, cleric, etc.

Im just asking one thing.....if the bible is true and Jesus comes down to save the ..........savable.... I wonder how many people are actually going to believe that its him and not some long hair-bearded dude with a mental disorder? I would bet that the percentage will be very low.

Your last sentence confuses me....."A bible story that teaches good lessons does not mean it is to be reinacted in the physical world."

Why shouldnt it?

[Senor Herberto]

it's a shame that modern society is so far out of touch with God that they would not recognize Him when He comes. do you really think that there is no God and that God will never return to tend what He made? especially when humans, earth's caretakers, fail?

the blind man asks, 'what's the sun?'
the deaf man signs, 'what is music?'
the athiests says, 'there is no god,' as if there could not possibly be one

[Larani]

do you really think that there is no God and that God will never return or care for what He has made?

The question supposes that God has left. Why do you choose to think God has left? :lol: It further supposes that God has stopped tending Creation why do you choose to think God has stopped tending Creation? :lol:

[servantx]

God bless you, Senor Herberto. :)

I'm really joyful to hear your testemony of finding your faith in Christ.

Christ saved me too 8 years ago when I was demon processed because of meditation.

About your uncertainity of you found Christ or Christ found you in the first post in this thread, the bible said God chose us before the foundation of earth. God has chosen you right at the beginning. May the grace of Christ and blessings from our LORD God be with you, brother :)


Ephesians 1:11-14
==============
11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory.

[servantx]

sorry typo: "demon possessed", not "processed"

[Senor Herberto]

and also with you, servantx. amen.

[rjamortega]

Charles Manson, David Koresh, Jonestown, that silly little comet that gave Nike bad advertising......you dont know one person who would fall for such a ploy??? Come on! And thats the short list. Granted Looney Charley wasnt exactly the "Christian" type but the others were. Cults, religion, potato, potAto...Again, everyone pulls out their own meanings from scriptures, either from the bible or from the leader, beit priest, minister, cleric, etc.

Im just asking one thing.....if the bible is true and Jesus comes down to save the ..........savable.... I wonder how many people are actually going to believe that its him and not some long hair-bearded dude with a mental disorder? I would bet that the percentage will be very low.

Your last sentence confuses me....."A bible story that teaches good lessons does not mean it is to be reinacted in the physical world."

Why shouldnt it?
Yeah, that was a clumsily constructed sentence on my part. What I'm trying to say is that not everything in the Bible should be taken literaly. Between skeptical atheists and contemporary fundamentalist Christians there is a lot of confusion. And most of that confusion falls on the fact that both parties interpret scripture literaly as relating to modern society.

Now I am by no means a scholar in theology, but every time I have ever listened to an interpretation of the Torah taking into account the correct hebrew and the time and place in which that scripture applied, the meaning is entirely different from what people assume reading the popular english versions. It is no wonder that non-believers see a book that is long outdated and/or dangerous, and makes fundamentalists harsh and inflexible, or at least look that way.

[Viking]

Yeah, that was a clumsily constructed sentence on my part. What I'm trying to say is that not everything in the Bible should be taken literaly. Between skeptical atheists and contemporary fundamentalist Christians there is a lot of confusion. And most of that confusion falls on the fact that both parties interpret scripture literaly as relating to modern society.

Now I am by no means a scholar in theology, but every time I have ever listened to an interpretation of the Torah taking into account the correct hebrew and the time and place in which that scripture applied, the meaning is entirely different from what people assume reading the popular english versions. It is no wonder that non-believers see a book that is long outdated and/or dangerous, and makes fundamentalists harsh and inflexible, or at least look that way.

I totally agree.....and especially with your last sentence. The way I see it, religious fundamentalism is dangerous and leads to violence. Christians proved it, Mormons proved it, Muslims proved it, Jews proved it....my apologies if I forgot to mention a particular group.

[Senor Herberto]

fundamentalism mixed with human failure and intolerance leads to violence. it is not the duty of man to judge. that is left to God. those who strive to judge on Earth are abusing their power.

we are earth's stewards, not it's executioners. God also mentioned 'do not kill'. the interpretation of that passage means that it is wrong to kill.

[Viking]

fundamentalism mixed with human failure and intolerance leads to violence. it is not the duty of man to judge. that is left to God. those who strive to judge on Earth are abusing their power.

we are earth's stewards, not it's executioners. God also mentioned 'do not kill'. the interpretation of that passage means that it is wrong to kill.

I agree and I can expand on that....

Without humans, there is no human failure. Without humans, there is no fundamentalism. So in which case there is no fundamentalism without human failure, which does lead and has lead to violence.

"Fundamentalism" - a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles.

The bible is not meant to be taken literally 100%. Its filled with symbolism and metaphors as well as being literary. Its because of fundamentalism that we have people killing “because God told them to”. How many times has God asked humans to kill for him in the Bible? So if it happened then, why shouldn’t it happen now?

I don’t believe that God asked anyone to kill for him… even in the Bible, because God knows killing is wrong so why should God ask us to do it for him? This is why I don’t take anything literal from anything written by human…..inspired by divinity or not.

[Senor Herberto]

God actually said not to kill.

'thou shalt not kill'

willing killers are sinners. jesus also said that someone who quarreled with his brother is in the same spiritual danger.

[Viking]

God actually said not to kill.

'thou shalt not kill'

willing killers are sinners. jesus also said that someone who quarreled with his brother is in the same spiritual danger.

So in the Bible, you dont think God had killed or had anyone kill for God?

[Senor Herberto]

God doesn't usually do assassinations, as far as i am aware.

[Churlant]

God doesn't usually do assassinations, as far as i am aware.

Does the murder of children count as assassinations? Or should we just keep it at 'murder' ?

-JC

[julierep]

Im not exactly sure what you are refering to, but as far as I know, God hasnt murdered any children. He may have allowed it, but didnt do it himself. Remember, God gave Satan some reign on earth.

[Churlant]

Im not exactly sure what you are refering to, but as far as I know, God hasnt murdered any children. He may have allowed it, but didnt do it himself. Remember, God gave Satan some reign on earth.

Egypt's first born... ? God hired Satan to do that one?

-JC

[Russikan]

"Tell the people that I will kill the first born of those who do not believe in me and paint lamb blood...Through a proxy I like to call Satan."

Yep I remember that part of the Bible.

[Churlant]

"Tell the people that I will kill the first born of those who do not believe in me and paint lamb blood...Through a proxy I like to call Satan."

Yep I remember that part of the Bible.

:rofl: :lol: :clap:

-JC

[julierep]

Egypt's first born... ? God hired Satan to do that one?

-JC

I dont read a lot of the old testament, is it in there? Im not trying to sound ignorant (although I may), I just read more of the New testament.

[julierep]

Never mind...Russikan reminded me. I'll have to read it in detail before I can give you an answer. I know of the story...just need to read it.

[Churlant]

I dont read a lot of the old testament, is it in there? Im not trying to sound ignorant (although I may), I just read more of the New testament.

How do you come to a belief the Bible is 100% accurate if you haven't even read the whole thing?

And yes, it is in there.

-JC

[julierep]

How do you come to a belief the Bible is 100% accurate if you haven't even read the whole thing?

And yes, it is in there.

-JC

I have read a lot of it, just not the entire bible. The points of believing the bible as 100% accurate, well that is always a matter of faith.

[Churlant]

I have read a lot of it, just not the entire bible. The points of believing the bible as 100% accurate, well that is always a matter of faith.

:shrug: I suppose so. Just seems odd you wouldn't even be able to verify it yourself.

Anyhow... when you check the part where God assassinates the kids, let us know.

-JC

[servantx]

God did not assassinates the kids, but Pharaoh did.

God gave Pharaoh a choice, either release the Israelites or plagues.

Pharaoh refused to believe, he bring plagues upon himself and his people.

The killing of first born is a judgement to Pharaoh's killing of Israelite first borns when Moses was born. You know that story, the choice was given, Pharaoh made the mistake. And God keeps his vows.

[Churlant]

God did not assassinates the kids, but Pharaoh did.

God gave Pharaoh a choice, either release the Israelites or plagues.

Pharaoh refused to believe, he bring plagues upon himself and his people.

The killing of first born is a judgement to Pharaoh's killing of Israelite first borns when Moses was born. You know that story, the choice was given, Pharaoh made the mistake. And God keeps his vows.

God kept His vow to murder innocent children. End of Story.

If you want to placate something resembling a conscience on believing your God could actually do something like this, then go ahead with your wife-beating "Well gee officer, I warned her and she spoke up anyhow, so I had to learn her!" reasoning.

In the mean time, don't care if it's Edmund Kemper or God, murder of innocents is still going to be murder.

-JC

[rjamortega]

^, ^^Now might be a good time to study this scripture in the original Hebrew. Literal, literal...everyone wants to take these books literaly. :rolleyes:

[AgentM]

God kept His vow to murder innocent children. End of Story.

If you want to placate something resembling a conscience on believing your God could actually do something like this, then go ahead with your wife-beating "Well gee officer, I warned her and she spoke up anyhow, so I had to learn her!" reasoning.

In the mean time, don't care if it's Edmund Kemper or God, murder of innocents is still going to be murder.

-JC

:clap: :clap: :clap: Yeah, you've gotta love a God that says, "Well, I'd really like to give you folks a chance, I really would, but you don't believe in me so guess what, I'm gonna have to destroy your city." Most Christians are totally selective in what they use from the Bible, and disregard the realities in that book.

[servantx]

Yes it is true that destruction will come in the Day of Judgement, as written in the Book of Revelation.

[Craig]

Most Christians are totally selective in what they use from the Bible, and disregard the realities in that book.

I even know some Christians who aren't selective in this regard, and they're even more frightening. Reminds me of the guy who openly proclaimed that God is the one who ordered the deaths of women and children, as though we should just be "okay" with it. :eek:

[Viking]

Its like Julie said, and Im not picking on you, that she hadnt read the whole thing (Bible) but she goes on blind faith. That might be ok for you, but for me thats dangerous... and again, being raised Roman Catholic, going to Catholic schools, alter boy....blah blah blah....I think I can say that I have been exposed to Catholicism....if you want to believe....believe thats cool....but to NOT read something and say that you believe in it faithfully.....thats just insane.....again thats just my opinion.

To those who "THINK" God didnt kill anyone in the Bible or have people kill for him.....read it again. Why is it that people will totally accept the New Testament but either have no idea what the Old Testament is or do not acknowlege it. Thats like saying you know world history but have only read history since WW2....I just dont get that.

[serenity]

Yes it is true that destruction will come in the Day of Judgement, as written in the Book of Revelation.

I can't wait; it's gonna be a very exciting day! :)

[Senor Herberto]

So goes God's judgement upon the wicked. God can choose to enact his judgement for sins at any time, as on the Egyptians long ago. He created you and the world you exist in. Sins damn you to hell.