The Class Divide in America

[azov]

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-10/25peters.cfm

[up2date]

I will admit to only skimming the article (I'll read it during my quiet time later), I can say that I see it almost everyday. I live in NYC where you can see members of every "class" on the same street. I have spent significant amounts of time with both extremes, and something worries me. I guess there has always been classism. But as racism in this country disappears (of course it will never disappear completely - we can't totally stomp out ignorance), it will be replaced by classism as the predominant prejudice in this country (and other as well?).

[azov]

Classism is in fact older than racism. White indentured servitude preceded black slavery after all, and I mention this not as idle historiography. Bringing in permanently disfranchised black labor was an effective way of denying the reality of class in the New World. After Bacon's Rebellion, in Virginia, class divisions were glossed over through racism. It's worked so well that the technique is still with us, four centuries later, played by both left and right. But the underlying reality of class remains.

[up2date]

You're right that it predates racism. But in the U.S., the underlying classism is reemerging from behind racism in many cases. I suspect it will continue.

[Missouri Mule]

It might be noted that money does not equal "class."

[Dissent]

Originally posted by Missouri Mule
It might be noted that money does not equal "class."




Why might that be?
what is your deffinition of class?
just curious.

[up2date]

There's the definition of class that applies to one's manners and behavior. Money definitely can't buy that.

There's the definition of class that applies to one's social grouping. Money can't buy that either. Well, it can, but it takes a couple of generations. If I were to win some power ball type of lottery, I may be able to buy a mansion in some exclusive neighborhood (maybe not - I might have to be approved by the board), but I might never be accepted by my neighbors. My great grandchildren might, though.

[Blueangel]

The fact that you're even discussing this, strikes me as peculiar.
You would hope that America could have a classless society.

I first became aware of your class system by watching a documentary about the Mayflower descendants. They seem to view themselves as some sort of elite.

The whole old money versus new money thing, has always annoyed me.
I find it exhilarating to be in the company of someone who has worked their way up rather than inherited their wealth.
But their are exceptions.

In Britain (and I remember Billy Connelly doing an excellent sketch about this), there is a weird kind of affinity between the working classes and the upper classes. I would go as far as to say, it's a matter of shared manners and being respectful towards each other.

It's the middle class that upset the apple cart. It's the 'keeping up with the Jones's' mentallity that I find pathetic and rude.

[Missouri Mule]

Class distinctions might be better understood by the difference between "old money" and the "nuevo rich." That is to say someone who wins the lottery may come from a poor "working class" background. He or she is unlikely to be accepted into the social class with the Vanderbilts and the Rockefellers. Probably has a lot to do with education. I have a college education and my brothers do not. My interests do not coincide with their interests. And both have earned more money than I did. But that is not to say that I rub elbows with the rich and influential. I haven't. I think education is probably the main determinent.

[JD3]

It is all those things; true enough.

But there is, I think, an increasing gap between those who ahve and those who don't in America. We have big winners in most professions and big losers. The middle class is smaller than it used to be. And those in the middle may be struggling more than before.

America needs a strong middle class to be effective and to keep the America dream alive. If it appears that things are too skewed, than will have trobles here that other countries face now.

[Missouri Mule]

If you want to define "class" along money earned your point is well taken. I do believe many people are living from hand to mouth. But on the other hand, many people don't spend their money wisely. I remember when my wife and I were first married we had to literally account for every penny we earned. I had a rudimentary spreadsheet and every single cent we spent was accounted for along with our income. But we made it. How many people on the lower rungs of the economic ladder have such discipline? Although we were "poor" at the outset, we never considered ourselves as being "poor" in the "class" sense that one might have in other countries.

Every other day I find myself in Wal-Mart. I would guess that virtually all economic classes shop there. But who would know it? Just because the greeter might be making a minimum amount doesn't mean they are poor. One of the greeters down at the local Wal-Mart is a retired nurse. She just wanted something to do. I'm retired and I don't mind getting my hands dirty. I have little use for those whose noses are stuck in the air. They can kiss my patooty as far as I am concerned. IMHO they are truly the ones with no "class."

[JD3]

I was beyond poor when I started out. I learned many tough lessons along the way, but looking back I now see things that we hidden from me. Now, don't get me wrong, no one hid them. I simply couldn't see. I had nothing, so when I got something I spent it. I didn't in any real way understand and I had no guidence. And when soomeone did say something, it was rude and I reacted as expected.

Talk doesn't change any of this. Time, experieince, and good people who got dirty with me helped.

But I think we need to protect the middle class and help those who cannot see, see clearly what can be done. Most people aren't bad per sa, they are just blind and lost.

[Captain America]

Upon the face of it, "classism" does appear to be ugly, however if study, hard work, consistancy, and moral conscience rises me to a station in life that is considered to be "above" someone that does not adhere to these tenants, I do not see how I can be blamed.

[Missouri Mule]

Right on. A person ought to be rewarded for his hard work and perservence. Terminal laziness ought not be rewarded but scorned.

[Dissent]

Okay, interesting but just to throw another question out there – if no one minds.

Would any of you go with the idea that class isn’t necessarily just money, manners etc. but referring to Marx, more owning the means of production and being a means of production?
I suppose we can add in there managing the means of production as well.

To you all, would this be relevant anymore?

[Missouri Mule]

Generally speaking such people would have more money and better able to seek the better things of life; able to send their children to the better schools; more likely to associate with other people with money. I'm not sure where you are going with this? Please explain.

[DRMIZER]

The "little fuzzball", "El-Rush-bo", patron saint of the ultra right-wing, well-known, now admitted drug user, referred to it as class warfare. His simplistic message was that those less fortunate are jealous of those who have more. And, if "those people" would just pick themselves up, dust themselves off and get a job, they would no longer be in that position. It's the liberals that keep them down. Are you saying that he was wrong?

[Missouri Mule]

Rush was full of bull in that regard. He had forgotten his roots when he didn't have two nickles to rub together. Of course his family had money but Rush started out with low income but high expectations to hear him tell it. Rush's gift is the distilling of complex situations down into simple to understand concepts. You have to take anything you hear from such gurus with a grain of salt. I listen but as Reagan would say "I verify."

I've never been "poor." More accurately, I've never viewed myself as "poor." In 1974 when we came back from Montana we were down to our last $500 with no jobs, and nothing much of anything else. But I never considered us as being destitute. It was rough sledding for a while but we managed to get by until we got our feet back on the ground. The real problem with the poor is that they are "poor" in their minds. They more often than not come from dysfunctional families where many view being in jail as "normal." Typically, if they attend church it is one of the lower class churches like the "holy rollers." To understand how this works it would be worthwhile to see the movie made a few years ago set in Appallacia. It was very graphic and very real. As I recall it was produced and directed by someone in the Kennedy family. And I wish I knew the name of it so I could tell you. It's an eye opener.

"Poor" is a state of mind. That is the long and the short of it.

[azov]

Nonsense, to say nothing of drivel.

Poorness is lack of money, of opportunity, being locked into a no-win lifestyle because that's he way those that rule this society want it.

No one works at Wal-Mart by choice. No one lives in a ghetto by choice.

We live in a society where the few monopolize most of the good things by denying access to those below, paying through the nose for necessities controlled by the very elite that condemns their "laziness" and "inferiority."

[JD3]

Poor is a state of mind? Sort of, but not the way I read your comment. It is assumed that everyone sees the world, understands it, and knows the same truths. It is not so.

We struggle to make sense of our world. We must decide often before we even know the choices, only to discover that we tricked ourselves. Life is not clear.

Poverty is a state of blindness. You don't have and, if you live in America and buy into the visions of success and status, you want. But without guidence and help, you have a real hard time creating insight from confusion. It is simply harder than people think.

I hear people say that well they just made poor choices. And they are right. A sixteen year old girl living with a single parent who is high or drunk most of the time chooses to have sex because somewhere inside she only knows she needs to feel love. Now she has a child. school is difficult. She believes that there is no real hope. There is little support. And she chooses to marry young. SHe works where she can -- McDonalds or Walmart or somewhere similar. The guy she married tries to be stand up, but he too lacks education and skills. He bought into being cool and was never really taught that hard work and education matters. They lose. It was their choice. But was it really.

They know neither how to be successful or how to live peacefully with less. They know nothing. And we let it be so.

We talk bad about them. Because no matter who it is, it is them.

And the beat goes on.

[Missouri Mule]

Originally posted by azov
Nonsense, to say nothing of drivel.

Poorness is lack of money, of opportunity, being locked into a no-win lifestyle because that's he way those that rule this society want it.

No one works at Wal-Mart by choice. No one lives in a ghetto by choice.

We live in a society where the few monopolize most of the good things by denying access to those below, paying through the nose for necessities controlled by the very elite that condemns their "laziness" and "inferiority."

Azov: When I didn't have money I wasn't poor. I was financially challenged but I wasn't poor. The left keep pushing this class warfare idea in order to win elections. This has about as much validity as it does for Muslims to blame all their problems on the Jews.

My grandparents didn't have two nickles to rub together. During the Great Depression they had to eat the bark off the trees to stay alive. A lard sandwich was a treat. My aunt told me she had but one dress to wear to school and it was washed daily. You made a dollar a day if you were lucky. My dad was on his own at age 14. My uncle walked all the way to Denver from Madison, Wisconsin. He ruined his feet during the process but he died a millionaire.

None ever told me they were "poor." And I might add that the happiest days of my life were spent with my grandparents. They made do and we had a terrific time with the family on the front porch, watermelons and home made ice cream. I never heard them complain in all the time I was with them. They may have been financially challenged but they were rich in spirit.

I repeat again, "poor" is a state of mind. It has little or nothing to do with the size of a person's bank account.

BTW, if you think everyone who works at Wal-Mart does so only because they have to then you are badly mistaken. That retired nurse who greets the customer does it because she wanted to get out in the public and was bored sitting home counting her money.

[JD3]

Your experieince is different. Perhaps it is because you were well off. You had good people who supported you. You learned skills, even if it was simply people skills, that made you attractive to someone else.

I meerly say this to point out that all experieinces aren't the same. If I wanted to do something to fight poverty and its effects, I send good people out to talk, and teach, and befriend those without. It is more valuable than money.

But don't take that the mean a few hundred bucks at the right time can't be helpful either.;)

[Missouri Mule]

"Your experieince is different. Perhaps it is because you were well off. You had good people who supported you. You learned skills, even if it was simply people skills, that made you attractive to someone else."

When we picked up we had $500 in the bank and a '63 GMC pickup pulling a U-Haul trailer. It contained all our worldly goods. We were hardly well off. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth. When I was growing up my Dad who learned the hard way during the Great Depression was adament that we waste nothing. I had to eat everything on the plate including the bones.

When we arrived, the very next day I camped on the doorstep of the state employment agency and hammered them until I got some job interviews. It was either work or starve.

[azov]

That's all very well and fine. I have similar stories from both my personal experience and in my own family.

The fact is that upward mobility is precarious in the US. Only a very few can get by without having to sell their lives to others, and those others control the society in which we live.

This remains the same whether you live in a shotgun house and sweep hospital floors, or pay a note on a condo and work as an RN. The doctor and the corporate bureaucrats and investors who own the hospital represent a tiny minority, yet they control the livelihoods of all those who actually make a go of any medical institution - to use one example out of many.

[Missouri Mule]

Azov: You and I have had many, many discussions but this one is fundamental to our disagreement. From reading your post you evidently believe that people's lives are not really within their control. I believe just the opposite. I do believe that they can control their lives. It takes a certain amount of discipline and and unwillingness to not place the blame elsewhere. Sometimes the enemy is really ourselves.

I've taken personality tests several times and it finally dawned on me that this is what I have always believed. For that reason I concluded that I was essentially a conservative politically speaking. I still retain the desire to see improvements in society; I'm not wealthy but not poor but ultimately the biggest single reason for a person's success comes from within. If a person relies on others for their station in life they are likely to wait a very long time. If you don't believe that ask yourself why so many new millionaires who win the lotteries wind up penniless later on in their lives. Look at many sports figures and others who had great wealth and look at how they turned out. They didn't have that inner steel that successful people have. No social program or money grant will ever change that. As Jimmah Carter once said "Life is not fair." On that I agree completely.

[JD3]

I mostly agree. Life isn't fair. And if you have the will and the ability, you can achieve in American to some degree.

But his point is also that life isn't fair and that if you don't have all you need you will fail to some degree.

I like our system better than most. I think we need to have the perception that all is achievable for all. But the reality is that isn't true. There are barriers for some. Some have more to over come than others. And the more barriers there are, the less likely you will succeed. I am not sure that anything can be done about it. But I hate smuggness that comes often from those who do not have the same obstacles. (I don't mean you MM).

I guess that is really the only pont I'd like to make on this topic. We don't travel the same roads with the same load. Hard to compare any of us.

[Missouri Mule]

Please don't read into my posts what I didn't say. I never said that having a leg up doesn't give a person a decided advantage. Undoubtedly it does. What I have been trying to convey is that we can still control much about our lives. We should look to our own resources and not count on some pie in the sky government program to save us from ourselves.

As my aunt has said to me more than a few times, "God helps those who help themselves." She is the one who had but one dress to wear to school during the Great Depression.

[JD3]

No offense meant. I did say not you. I was taking the posts as a whole.

Och!:(