Global warming: A hoax?

[JD3]

Is global warming real?

Just heard a US Senator say it was a hoax. Just curious how everyone sees it.

[Blueangel]

Polar ice caps are melting...Britain's had a succession of long hot summers...I'm planting palm trees in my back garden...
That's real enough for me!

[KWJams]

A more thought provoking question is ---- who's fault is it? :thinking:

[Blueangel]

Well, the answer to that has definately got to refer to the burning of fossil fuels, and obviously, some nations are more guilty than others.

[Dissent]

We all contribute in some shape or form…
Every time we drive a car to work or down to get milk, every time use hair spray to make it sit right, every time we light a cigarette . . .

As I watch our seasons go haywire, I believe it’s true and I don’t think it’s simple to play the blaming game when it comes to our environment. We are all responsible in some shape or form.

[gopman]

I have done quite a bit of research into this issue. The recent increase in heat is due to sunspots. This type of climactic variation can be traced back throughout documented history. Pollution doesn't help anything, but it's not as bad as many people have it cracked up to be.

[Captain America]

Agreed, gopman.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by gopman
I have done quite a bit of research into this issue. The recent increase in heat is due to sunspots. This type of climactic variation can be traced back throughout documented history. Pollution doesn't help anything, but it's not as bad as many people have it cracked up to be.
There are some people saying this. If you had done some research you would know that the majority believes if there is such an effect it is due to the greenhouse effect.

[Catch 22]

actually from what I’ve heard we've pumped so much CO2 into the atmosphere we shoulda been submerged in melted ice caps by now. But if you follow the cooling trends we should have started another ice age by now as well. Thus the 2 factors have probably started to nullify each other. However this might not be the case for very long as the melted icebergs have shown us human definitely should start reigning in pollution.

On the bright side of things at least we don’t have to worry about more ice ages.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by Catch 22
actually from what I’ve heard we've pumped so much CO2 into the atmosphere we shoulda been submerged in melted ice caps by now. But if you follow the cooling trends we should have started another ice age by now as well. Thus the 2 factors have probably started to nullify each other. However this might not be the case for very long as the melted icebergs have shown us human definitely should start reigning in pollution.

On the bright side of things at least we don’t have to worry about more ice ages.
Where have you heard that from? :rolleyes: There has not been pumped enough CO2 in the atmosphere we shoulda been submerged in melted ice caps and there are cooling trends only in some places, which is also what global warming predicts. It is for example among others predicted that the Gulfstream would probably stop if things would continue warming up globally, ensuring that locally in Europe the temperature would drop.

[Blueangel]

There's a major TV programme on thursday over here, that claims Britain could soon be plummeted into the coldest climate since the Ice Age.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/listings/programme.shtml?service_id=4224&FILENAME=20031113/20031113_2100_4224_34474_50

I'll be glued to it and wondering if it's worth planting my palm trees after all.:(
It makes me wonder if scientists ever agree on anything?

Having said that, I found this article on my new fave website...

http://www.ox.ac.uk/blueprint/2000-01/2610/15.shtml

It seems that both theories agree that the information we need to establish past and possible future world climates, lies on the ocean floor.

[Simon666]

From that website you gave
In the end there came the terrifying revelation: the Gulf Stream, that vast current of water that keeps us warm, could be cut off.
As I've already said, cutting the Gulfstream is considered a likely result of global warming. You seem to say this contradicts global warming.
Excerpt from this site (http://www.columbia.edu/cu/pr/99/11/ocean/ocean1.html)
The circulation of the North Atlantic conveyor transports warm, tropical water north to the polar areas, via the Gulfstream and North Atlantic Drift currents. Once north, the salty warm water cools and then sinks to the bottom of the ocean, a process that draws more warm surface water from the south.

"This north-south conveyor is what keeps northern Europe far warmer than the Canadian provinces at the same latitude-in short, what keeps London from having a climate like Newfoundland," said Sachs.

But if the salty water does not become cold enough to sink, due to global warming, or is diluted with too much freshwater, the North Atlantic conveyor halts.

[Voice Of Reason]

thirty years ago we were sweating another Ice Age....There are just as many scientists that say Global Warming is not a threat as there are that says it is.................

Tell the people back east that the earth is warming...Last winter was the coldest in history back there..............

[KWJams]

You know what has me really - really worried :thinking: 20 miles away from here they are building a wind farm. They have been planting them bird eating wind generators as fast as they can.

Do you think for one minute that the greedy globalist wind farm companies care if their wind generators cause global slowing?

It takes a lot of wind to turn them big blades :mad: If the wind is slowed down turning blades then slower moving weather patterns will create havoc I tell you--havoc on a global scale!! :eek:

[Simon666]

KWJams, is that a joke? :D:confused:

[JD3]

Originally posted by Simon666
KWJams, is that a joke? :D:confused:

I laughed.:rofl: :rofl:

[KWJams]

Originally posted by Simon666
KWJams, is that a joke? :D:confused:

JokE? :rolleyes: who me? :D


Hey, it could happen ya'know. ;)

Makes about as much sense as some other theories on mankinds affect on this planet. :lol:

[JD3]

Originally posted by KWJams
JokE? :rolleyes: who me? :D


Hey, it could happen ya'know. ;)

Makes about as much sense as some other theories on mankinds affect on this planet. :lol:

I am not sure about that. We have hurt this planet in many ways. Lake Erie once caught on fire. That was harmful. You can hurt the human body. it may heal, but it was still hurt. We can do the same to the planet. It is a living thing, so it can be killed, much the same as an insect bite can kill human.

[KWJams]

I am not disputing that humans can and do affect the planet.

On one channel you can find someone selling a book on Global warming, flip the channel and there is someone selling a book on the coming Ice Age.

I disagree with the scare tactics used .......... They are about as effective as saying if you don't stop you will go blind. :eek:

much the same as an insect bite can kill human

Now that is something to ponder:thinking: insect like humans biting the planet while wind generators slow the wind enough to alter the weather.......:rolleyes:

[gopman]

Global slowing is possibly the funniest thing i've ever heard in my entire life. Until I heard this: "Lake Erie once caught on fire."

As for the warming, there are much more serious pollution problems (like water pollution) to waste time and energy on something that's probably not even caused by pollution, or even a serious, long-term problem. During my research I also discovered that much of the data on which conjecture about global warming was based on overblown economic data They assumed that within this century the per capita GDP of currently third world nations would outstrip that of Australia, and their rate of pollution would grow accordingly. There was also something about innacurate measurements that I can't remember. Something about the difference between surface temp and air temp.

[EntImp]

Originally posted by gopman
I have done quite a bit of research into this issue. The recent increase in heat is due to sunspots. This type of climactic variation can be traced back throughout documented history. Pollution doesn't help anything, but it's not as bad as many people have it cracked up to be.

What a fantastic post! You have convinced me that global warming is just a hoax and that all ennvironmental studies I took whilst at university to become a biologist were for nothing.

Man I wish I read this post in 1995.

[KWJams]

An intense period of global warming about 55.5 million years ago has been linked to a massive release of methane :eek:

<<--Story Here-->> (http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/1999/11/111999/methane_7447.asp)

Methane???????? :thinking:

Massive release!!! :thinking:

Eureka!! To stop global warming we need a world wide ban on bean burritos! :D

[JD3]

Originally posted by KWJams
I am not disputing that humans can and do affect the planet.

On one channel you can find someone selling a book on Global warming, flip the channel and there is someone selling a book on the coming Ice Age.

I disagree with the scare tactics used .......... They are about as effective as saying if you don't stop you will go blind. :eek:


This I would agree with. We need good science. We need to make distinctions among political agendas, profit making, and real science. While there may be natural cause that contribute, that doesn'it invalidate being concerned about the things we can control. And we need a populace that really wants to know.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by KWJams
<<--Story Here-->> (http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/1999/11/111999/methane_7447.asp)

Methane???????? :thinking: Massive release!!! :thinking:
Why do you find this funny or weird? Now, due to CO2 the global warming is not really intense, but a slight upwards temperature change might defrost large amounts of permafrost in Russia which will put an awful lot of it in the atmosphere, not to mention yet the vast amounts that could be released if a change in ocean temperature would release massive amounts of gas hydrates, which by the way are so common they contain twice the energy present in all fossile fuels on earth (http://www.pulseplanet.com/archive/Oct96/1315.html).

[gopman]

I too have taken university environmental studies. I have seen the sunspot trends. That is why there were once lush farms on Greenland, where today lies frozen tundra.

[KWJams]

Originally posted by Simon666
Why do you find this funny or weird? Now, due to CO2 the global warming is not really intense, but a slight upwards temperature change might defrost large amounts of permafrost in Russia which will put an awful lot of it in the atmosphere, not to mention yet the vast amounts that could be released if a change in ocean temperature would release massive amounts of gas hydrates, which by the way are so common they contain twice the energy present in all fossile fuels on earth (http://www.pulseplanet.com/archive/Oct96/1315.html).

Simon,
If you read the article you would understand that it was a massive release -- not a trickle to cause that case of global warming.
In other words,,,,,,,,it was a natural occurring event.

The planet has more power to create earth changing catastrophes than us insect like humans gnawing at the planet can ever do short of a nuclear mistake.

The point is that livestock has been blamed for the release of dangerous levels of methane gases with the solution outlined by the self proclaimed earth savers is that we all must become vegetarians -- do you have any idea what all those vegetables and fiber will create in just my diet?? :eek:

[Blueangel]

Originally posted by KWJams
The point is that livestock has been blamed for the release of dangerous levels of methane gases with the solution outlined by the self proclaimed earth savers is that we all must become vegetarians -- do you have any idea what all those vegetables and fiber will create in just my diet?? :eek: I'm just wondering if you could bottle it and run your Harley on it? :D

[Simon666]

Originally posted by KWJams
Simon,
If you read the article you would understand that it was a massive release -- not a trickle to cause that case of global warming.In other words,,,,,,,,it was a natural occurring event.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about creating such an event unnaturally. Nuclear fission reactors occur in nature too, but that doesn't mean we should be reckless about creating something like Chernobyl unnaturally.
Originally posted by KWJams
The planet has more power to create earth changing catastrophes than us insect like humans gnawing at the planet can ever do short of a nuclear mistake.

The point is that livestock has been blamed for the release of dangerous levels of methane gases with the solution outlined by the self proclaimed earth savers is that we all must become vegetarians -- do you have any idea what all those vegetables and fiber will create in just my diet?? :eek:
The earth has more power to create earth changing catastrophes, but that doesn't mean we have none. Meteor impacts can destroy most life of earth and have occurred several times whiping out most species of the planet, and men can do the same with a nuclear holocaust. We have significantly and undubiously nearly doubled CO2 levels in a very short timespan, just watch the graphs (http://www.geocities.com/combusem/CO2HIST.HTM), something nature has never accomplished and according to most scientists, this is not good.

And the whole story you made up about vegetarian and livestock is an example of some nutcases on the radical end to ridicule all the other serious people as well. Quite low tactic. Happens in the media too, they always focus on the alternatives, crazies and wackos in a demonstration for example.

[KWJams]

I give up -- :rolleyes:

What is the answer--what should we do -- "according to most scientists" that you agree with and any possible enlightenment revealed during your worship, what is the answer?
Just what exactly do we need to do?

[Simon666]

Regulate the efficiency of cars as far as I am concerned, study in which fields/sectors the most progress can be made by measures that increase energy efficiency and decrease greenhouse gasses emission and work on that or force people to work on that first.

I agree Kyoto has flaws, but something in between should be workable.

[KWJams]

Just as I thought :rolleyes: study this--study that to come up with no real answers just fears and contrived solutions that end up being a bigger problem than we began with like MTBE.

[Simon666]

Sometimes a single company can do a whole lot, take this example from Belgium. I translated it for you.

3M-engineers were ahead of Kyoto

(pse) 11/10/2003

BRUSSELS -- The investing plan to double the production of fluorchemicals in the Antwerp chemistry plant of the American 3M, placed the company engineers for an enormous challenge in 1997. Today it appears that through the accompanied environmental investment they have delivered a huge contribution to accomplish the Belgian Kyoto-obligation.

The investment at 3M-Zwijndrecht could only proceed after the engineers succeeded to seriously reduce the waste mount that the installation generated. They succeeded in their attempt by combining a lot of environmental knowledge about purification technologies. At the time of the investment the 3M-engineers didn't think at all about the agreements that were made during the climate conference which occurred in the same year at Kyoto.

The current factory director, Stan Robijns, which was at the time part of the goup of engineers, says that back then already very strict environmental rules were forced on by the mother company. 3M only gave the green light for the expansion at Zwijndrecht after an environmentally friendly solution was found for the emission of fluor containing gasses, which come free during the production of fluorchemicals as waste gasses.

It admittedly concerned small volumes, but measuring in CO2-equivalents (as happens when calculating the Kyoto norms) it concerns a gigantic cloud of carbon dioxide. It was equal to what 68.000 cars blow in the air per hour of CO2.

By recuperating the fluor and to convert to fluoride water the Antwerp 3M-plant succeeded in decimating the emission. The fluoride water is a primary resource that is among others used in tooth paste.

According to the factory director the ,,invention'' of the Antwerp engineers has since then also been used to lower the emission of other 3M plants significantly. He does point out that the invention can't be used by just any chemistry plant . This is because the purification installation is designed to reduce the waste amount in a very specific chemistry production.

Robijns has also no explanation as to why the prestation of 3M to reduce the CO2-emission has gone unnoticed the past couple of years. 3M reports yearly its emission of gasses to the Vlaamse Milieu Maatschappij (Flemish environmental watchdog). It concerns since the investment ofcourse very limited amounts., says Robijns. But after the VMM has on the occasion of the calculation of the CO2-balans of Flanders at the beginning of September wrote all the companies again to transmit their emission totals, the awareness grew at the company and the chemistry federation that the drastic lowering of the fluor emission by 3M the past years had not been taken into account.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by KWJams
Just as I thought :rolleyes: study this--study that to come up with no real answers just fears and contrived solutions that end up being a bigger problem than we began with like MTBE.
You're just talking idle because you just don't want to do anything and do not want to do any effort. That's lazyness and will not get you far. It also shows an attitude of being stuck in the past and little drive for innovation and improvement. The dinosaurs got extinct and I hope one day so will you.

[KWJams]

You can not answer my question so you attack me -- ??:confused:

Go back to the beginning of this thread and re-read my posts.

You may then understand that what I have been saying throughout is that we need "sound science" not just another knee jerk reaction based on fear of some unknown consequences if action is not taken --- right now!

MTBE is a perfect example of a knee jerk over reaction to unfounded fears of doom and gloom.

I am tired of paying for these "mistakes" to save the environment that are pushed down our throat by self appointed experts!

[Simon666]

3M solves third of Belgian CO2 -problem

From our editor
Pascal Sertyn 09/10/2003

BRUSSELS -- By reducing the emission of several severe greenhouse gasses drastically since 1990 the Antwerp chemistry plant 3M is going to solve in its own an important part of the Belgian CO2 -problem. Recent calculations learn that the company is good for at least a quarter and at most 40 percent of the required CO2 -limitation that Belgium has put on itself.

Belgium has committed itself in European connection to reduce the amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) of 1990 with 7,5 percent. This has to happen against 2010. These agreements are a consequence of the agreement made in 1997 during the climate conference of Kyoto to reduce the emission of greenhouse gasses worldwide.

The big problem of Belgium is that through a series of investments the Belgian large--industrial companies today emit around 7 percent more CO 2 than in 1990. The companies has already let it be known that with these investments it was already seriously tried to reduce the emission of greenhouse gasses to a minimum. A further reduction is irresponsible they warned.

But now it seems that by the environmantal efforts of a single company the Belgian promise to save 7,5 percent CO 2 in exhaust will be feasible.

The flemish government has already ordered the Flemish Institute for Technological Research to check the calculations of 3M and the chemistry federation. At the cabinet of federal minister of Energy, Fientje Moerman, it sounds that the prestation of 3M could have a serious influence on the Belgian CO2-obligation.

In a minimum scenario the Antwerp chemistryplant would take care of around 25 percent of the required CO2-reduction on its own. But it is not excluded this will amount to 40 percent.

[KWJams]

That is a great achievement for that particular part of the problem but even they say it doesn't do much more than solve their part,,,
According to the factory director the ,,invention'' of the Antwerp engineers has since then also been used to lower the emission of other 3M plants significantly. He does point out that the invention can't be used by just any chemistry plant . This is because the purification installation is designed to reduce the waste amount in a very specific chemistry production.

Industrial air scrubbers should be encouraged and used whenever applicable.

Any attempt to make industry clean should be pursued whether it is for gases or dust / solids control.

But these innovations for clean industries must be applied everywhere not just in the U.S. and Europe.

In the U.S. there are very strict standards enforced on industry, yet south of the border in Mexico there are few enforced standards that money can't not buy off.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by KWJams
Go back to the beginning of this thread and re-read my posts. You may then understand that what I have been saying throughout is that we need "sound science" not just another knee jerk reaction based on fear of some unknown consequences if action is not taken --- right now!
How long until it was recognized radiation was harmful in the US? The US exposed its own soldiers to the radiation blast of nuclear bombs. Some could see the bones in the hand they held before their eyes. Many of them got cancer. My dad says he was shocked when he saw in a documentary some army type, general or so, who responded when confronted with the accusation that they got cancer because of it : "Prove it!" Should we wait until it is too late and (too) much damage is already done or should we already be cautious? I advise being cautious.
Originally posted by KWJams
MTBE is a perfect example of a knee jerk over reaction to unfounded fears of doom and gloom.
What's that, Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether?
Originally posted by KWJams
I am tired of paying for these "mistakes" to save the environment that are pushed down our throat by self appointed experts!
Some measures wouldn't cost much, like the example given, besides, fluor is already very harmful for agriculture and biological life in general and not just the greenhouse effect which is theoretical to you. Problem is some types of people don't want anybody asking for anything if it is not in their direct financial interest, even if it wouldn't hurt much.
Originally posted by KWJams
Industrial air scrubbers should be encouraged and used whenever applicable. Any attempt to make industry clean should be pursued whether it is for gases or dust / solids control. But these innovations for clean industries must be applied everywhere not just in the U.S. and Europe. In the U.S. there are very strict standards enforced on industry, yet south of the border in Mexico there are few enforced standards that money can't not buy off.
I agree to all those, and the latter could be overcome by import tarifs I believe. That ought to teach them. ;):D

[KWJams]

Your example of radiation hardly is very rational since they barely understood it at the time to what extent it was harmful.

Troops deployed miles away from the blast center were probably unfortunately considered in a safe area. My late Uncle served in the Marshall Islands with the Marine Corps during the tests they conducted there.

But that is exactly what my point is about MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl ether). It was a knee jerk reaction to reduce a real problem of to much lead released into the environment from gasoline.

The solution was rammed down our throats before they fully understood the risk. Now we have wide spread ground water pollution of a known cancer causing agent.

Which is worse?? Lead levels in smog or ground water pollution?

and the latter could be overcome by import tarifs I believe. That ought to teach them.

WHat?? :confused: are you trying to be funny now? ;)

[Simon666]

Do they understand now to what extent raising carbon dioxide levels is harmful perhaps? :rolleyes: And I still know MTBE from chemistry, but I'm not familiar with the problematic. I don't know which is worse.

About import tarifs : is there a problem you have with that? :confused: I'm not American, so I don't know if that is prohibited under NAFTA or something.

[KWJams]

Of course they know -- they just don't know the entire solution or the cause. Jumping to unsound conclusions is not the solution.

In a nutshell--> MTBE was propped up during the Clinton administration as the solution to the lead levels in smog. Laws were passed which caused a complete revamping of industry and the cost was passed on to consumers.
Now the environmental cleanup costs and health problems from this il-founded solution will far exceed the few benefits received --- not very sound logic.

Import tariffs are political tools, for the right price you can buy any politician you want.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by KWJams
Of course they know -- they just don't know the entire solution or the cause. Jumping to unsound conclusions is not the solution.
Are we still talking here about the raise of CO2 levels? They do not know to what extent it is harmful, and you (and other people) have doubted it even has an effect. And the causes of the raise of CO2 levels are quite known, the solutions indeed not yet.

[KWJams]

They do not know to what extent it is harmful,

That is enough evidence to put the fear of a pending doom and disaster into me -- I give up --- you win take my truck -- take my job. I will go collect old tires from the side of the road to make sandals from since we will all be walking everywhere for now on looking for food since farmers will only be able to plant crops they can harvest without using fossil fuels.


and you (and other people) have doubted it even has an effect.

I do not believe that I said anything of the sort -- I have said that I doubt that man's contribution is the sole cause or that we even have a problem that is not just a natural occurring event.

Just give me a solution and direction we should go that is not based on unfounded fear!

[Simon666]

Originally posted by KWJams
That is enough evidence to put the fear of a pending doom and disaster into me -- I give up --- you win take my truck -- take my job. I will go collect old tires from the side of the road to make sandals from since we will all be walking everywhere for now on looking for food since farmers will only be able to plant crops they can harvest without using fossil fuels.
I've said time and again this wouldn't have to cost that much, but still you prefer on kneejerk reactions oh, my job, oh jobs will get lost, the economy will go down the drain, oh, we will become a third world nation if it were up to those horrible "them". It is your doom and gloom scenario is what is based on unfounded fear! The fear of global warming has scientific foundations, supported by the many reputable scientists, probably even the large majority.

[KWJams]

What ever,,,,,,,,,,:rolleyes:

[Simon666]

Well there is an argument. :D

[thoss52]

from what I read we're to late anyway and we're all going to die so what ?but then i don't have kids .

[Simon666]

Originally posted by thoss52
from what I read we're to late anyway and we're all going to die so what ?but then i don't have kids .
Too late for preventing any of it from happening I've read too, but not too late to try to make the full extent as limited as possible.

[thoss52]

what I read was if we would have stopped using facile fuels in 1950 it would still take 100 years to stop the worming at a rate of degrees a year .
but science and technology is advancing so who knows

[Simon666]

It is never too late to change the rate of degrees a year.

[thoss52]

I'm not a scientist so I confer opinion to those that know .

[Dave]

Originally posted by thoss52
what I read was if we would have stopped using facile fuels in 1950 it would still take 100 years to stop the worming at a rate of degrees a year .
but science and technology is advancing so who knows




This is what I think. The #2 ability of the human race is to cause problems. The #1 ability is to solve them.

I look forward to a bright, warm future.:lol: