Belief in Demons

[len31]

Are demons real? I mean as the Bible says. I think they are but I'd like other opinions. :devil:

[Seth928]

Demons are essentially a creation of the law of opposites. With out evil there is no good, without life there is no death, without demons there are no angels. If you buy in to religious dogma then yes demons exist. I do not believe in god in the traditional sense (I consider myself agnostic) but if there is something else out there I would tend to believe in more than just a simple good/evil stance. I would look at things in more of a polytheistic sense. Good and evil is relative to who you are and there is a substantial amount of grey area in the ethereal planes just as there is a substantial amount of grey area in the mortal plane.

[nogoodname90]

i dont think demons exist or angels i gusse

[Typopostive]

Are demons real? I mean as the Bible says. I think they are but I'd like other opinions. :devil:

If you look up 'Exorcism' in the yellow pages of your phone book and find a couple 'Exorcists' listed, then I guess the 'Demon' business must be pretty good, at least in your area that is. Check it out. :D

[eugene40]

If you look up 'Exorcism' in the yellow pages of your phone book and find a couple 'Exorcists' listed, then I guess the 'Demon' business must be pretty good, at least in your area that is. Check it out. :D


Either that or a lot of gullible people around....

[IDK]

Are demons real? I mean as the Bible says. I think they are but I'd like other opinions. :devil:
Well, define 'demon.' There is a saying, "Trust everyone but the demon inside them."

I find that angels and demons do exist, but I guess you could just call them 'good' and 'bad' people. All part of this eternal war. What do you consider yourself?

[mataj]

Are demons real?Only in DOOM3 (http://www.doom3.com/)

[heel31ok]

Demons are essentially a creation of the law of opposites. With out evil there is no good, without life there is no death, without demons there are no angels. If you buy in to religious dogma then yes demons exist. I do not believe in god in the traditional sense (I consider myself agnostic) but if there is something else out there I would tend to believe in more than just a simple good/evil stance. I would look at things in more of a polytheistic sense. Good and evil is relative to who you are and there is a substantial amount of grey area in the ethereal planes just as there is a substantial amount of grey area in the mortal plane.


I believe there are demons and they are very real.I do not believe you have to have demons to have angels because according to the Bible demons are fallen angels. So I would have to say you have to have angels to have demons but do not have to have demons to have angels.same thing applies to good and evil,and life and death. All the negatives came out of the positives in these examples. You only had to have the possibility of the negatives to have free will and choice.But if adam had no chosen evil he would not have ever known death nor would any of us. The fruit he ate was the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. before this he only knew good and he walked with God. After this he knew both and hid from God.

Anyway yes I do belive demons exist .

[::Major_Baker::]

*sigh*
I am sooooo glad I was raised an agnostic.
Because of that I don't have to try to find a goofy religious explanation for every little thing, or try to mold everything to fit the text of the bible.

On demons: no, I don't think they exist.

I should clarify, this response was not directed at the previous posters--just in general.

[IDK]

*sigh*
I am sooooo glad I was raised an agnostic.
Because of that I don't have to try to find a goofy religious explanation for every little thing, or try to mold everything to fit the text of the bible.

On demons: no, I don't think they exist.

I should clarify, this response was not directed at the previous posters--just in general.
I wasn't raised with any religious affiliation. Absoltely nothing was spoken to me concerning religion. I guess you could say agnostism fits me best, mixed with deism, but all the conclusions I have come up with fit logically with the real world...

[Bad Penny]

Do you have demons in your colon? (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/colon.html) :devil:

<snip>

God tells us in Revelation, chapter 14, that he is going to torment people with fire and brimstone. Friends? Do you know what brimstone is? It's sulfur, that's what it is. Do you know where sulfur is? It's in the center of the earth, that's where it is.

And it is Satan’s little calling card. When you smell sulfur, you know Satan has been around. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had saved men come up to me who work on them oil drilling platforms in that Gulf of Mexicans and tell me the same story. They say that sometimes they drill too far and suddenly the whole platform fills with the smell of sulfur coming up the pipeline straight from Hell.

<snip>

But when you smell sulfur, you know the Devil is around. Friends, have you ever sat yourself down on the toilet to do nature’s necessity and been overwhelmed by the smell of rotten eggs? It is sulfur. A clear sign that demons are living in your bottom. You need to get yourself down to a Bible-believing church, pronto, and get yourself a Jesus enema!

[Typopostive]

Do you have demons in your colon? (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/colon.html) :devil:

<snip>

God tells us in Revelation, chapter 14, that he is going to torment people with fire and brimstone. Friends? Do you know what brimstone is? It's sulfur, that's what it is. Do you know where sulfur is? It's in the center of the earth, that's where it is.

And it is Satan’s little calling card. When you smell sulfur, you know Satan has been around. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had saved men come up to me who work on them oil drilling platforms in that Gulf of Mexicans and tell me the same story. They say that sometimes they drill too far and suddenly the whole platform fills with the smell of sulfur coming up the pipeline straight from Hell.

<snip>

But when you smell sulfur, you know the Devil is around. Friends, have you ever sat yourself down on the toilet to do nature’s necessity and been overwhelmed by the smell of rotten eggs? It is sulfur. A clear sign that demons are living in your bottom. You need to get yourself down to a Bible-believing church, pronto, and get yourself a Jesus enema!

Just open a can of 'Shad's Stink bait'. I call it the devil's aftershave lotion. Give it a try on your next date. You'll stand out in a crowd. Standing alone that is.

[lord tammerlain]

Here is a site that will provide a list of many different ancient spiritual creatures

http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/middle_east/judaic/articles.html

[prst31]

Demons in the "classical" sense, no. Negative energy that can possess us in the form of anger, hatred, and rage, yes.
It is a physical fact that there is one set amount of energy in the universe. It is never gained nor lost, only transferred.

[IDK]

Demons in the "classical" sense, no. Negative energy that can possess us in the form of anger, hatred, and rage, yes.
It is a physical fact that there is one set amount of energy in the universe. It is never gained nor lost, only transferred.
Um... could there be a more perfect answer?

[prst31]

Um... could there be a more perfect answer?E=mc2? :)

[Russikan]

Um... could there be a more perfect answer?

Yes, it's called not confusing Physics Energy with human emotion.

Sorry prst, I just hate applying science out of sinc with what it actually refers to.

[prst31]

Yes, it's called not confusing Physics Energy with human emotion.

Sorry prst, I just hate applying science out of sinc with what it actually refers to.I'll admit my theory is somewhat philosophical yet you can't deny that energy is energy, no matter what form and humans are a part of the physical world. Something we tend to forget or ignore.
You don't believe there is a negative energy that preceeds negative human emotions or conversly, positive?

[IDK]

Yes, it's called not confusing Physics Energy with human emotion.

Sorry prst, I just hate applying science out of sinc with what it actually refers to.
that wouldn't be a better answer.... that would be a debate. Hate and love are real, along with good and evil. Sure, it is relative to each person, but they exist and consume our bodies. What, exactly, is at the root of their cause? Whether or not it is the energy we examine in physics is irrelevant to this debate, as we are trying to determine whether or not it exists.

[prst31]

that wouldn't be a better answer.... that would be a debate. Hate and love are real, along with good and evil. Sure, it is relative to each person, but they exist and consume our bodies. What, exactly, is at the root of their cause? Whether or not it is the energy we examine in physics is irrelevant to this debate, as we are trying to determine whether or not it exists.True but we can change it up a bit. :) The law, as far as I know, does not seperate different forms of energy. It states that energy, no matter what form, is neither gained nor lost, only transferred. Not simply fuel energy or electrical energy, ALL energy, including us.
I'm no bio-chemist but if you were to break a human down, chemically/biologically, you'll find a carbon based form of kinetic energy, burning at a mean temperature of 98.6 degrees farenheight, will you not? Why should we, or do we seperate ourselves, including our emotions from the physical law? It makes no sense.

[Lumpen Prole]

I believe in demons as well as mermaids, vampires, trolls and dragons.


:rolleyes:

[Russikan]

True but we can change it up a bit. :) The law, as far as I know, does not seperate different forms of energy. It states that energy, no matter what form, is neither gained nor lost, only transferred. Not simply fuel energy or electrical energy, ALL energy, including us.
I'm no bio-chemist but if you were to break a human down, chemically/biologically, you'll find a carbon based form of kinetic energy, burning at a mean temperature of 98.6 degrees farenheight, will you not? Why should we, or do we seperate ourselves, including our emotions from the physical law? It makes no sense.

Grrrrr! I'm not a bio chemist either but I know that most of our energy is chemical potential energy until it is transformed into kinetic energy (which only has one form) by a process that creates heat through inefficiancy. Heat which has to do with the state of our bodies but is not in any way usuable energy.

Furthermore, what I am saying is that our emotions are not cause by "energy" they are caused by particular horomones and patterns of nerve stimulation. Therefore negative energy, which only exists in the form of negative potential energy which is relative not absolute, would have no effect on our emotions.

[Redratio1]

Ok guys, I've read your posts. Is there actually a verse in the Bible (Judeo-Christian version, no Islamic Djinns) that actually says Demons exist?

[prst31]

Grrrrr! I'm not a bio chemist either but I know that most of our energy is chemical potential energy until it is transformed into kinetic energy (which only has one form) by a process that creates heat through inefficiancy. Heat which has to do with the state of our bodies but is not in any way usuable energy.

Furthermore, what I am saying is that our emotions are not cause by "energy" they are caused by particular horomones and patterns of nerve stimulation. Therefore negative energy, which only exists in the form of negative potential energy which is relative not absolute, would have no effect on our emotions.No need to growl but where do you suppose the energy for that growl came from? Beyond the "physical" world there are unexplainable forces that bind atomic particles/molecules or compose light for example. There is a force that initiates that chemical/nerve response, at the cellular level, that I believe is a part of the totality of all energy. You think emotions are nothing more than chemical/nervous responses? It seems to me they're rooted much deeper. :shrug:

[heel31ok]

Ok guys, I've read your posts. Is there actually a verse in the Bible (Judeo-Christian version, no Islamic Djinns) that actually says Demons exist?
YES,there are multiple references to demons.

[Russikan]

No need to growl but where do you suppose the energy for that growl came from? Beyond the "physical" world there are unexplainable forces that bind atomic particles/molecules or compose light for example. There is a force that initiates that chemical/nerve response, at the cellular level, that I believe is a part of the totality of all energy. You think emotions are nothing more than chemical/nervous responses? It seems to me they're rooted much deeper. :shrug:

Rooted in what? Your "negative energy" is a product of philosphy not science. Negative energy in Science only exists in antimatter "antienergy" and in negative potential energy due to gravity. Any speculation about negative emotions being caused by negative energy is just that. Negative emotions are called that because our society depicts them as such. However anger can be righteous or wrong. The anger emotion is part of what helps humans live as we do. It isn't even negative, and your body could never interact with negative energy except to annihilate.

[Dangerrmouse]

YES,there are multiple references to demons.

Where? Devils get cast out etc, but no demons that I know of.

[lord tammerlain]

Ok guys, I've read your posts. Is there actually a verse in the Bible (Judeo-Christian version, no Islamic Djinns) that actually says Demons exist?


Judeo most definately


Here is Baal

http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/middle_east/judaic/articles.html

Specific mentions of demons
http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/middle_east/judaic/articles.html

The Bible makes repeated mention of evil spirits (Lev. 16: 10; I Sam. 16:14-16; Isa. 34:14), including satyrs and night demons, but does not provide a great deal of detail. More elaborate stories about demons appear during the Greco-Roman period.


This is probably one of the more unknown aspects of ancient Judaism

http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/middle_east/judaic/articles.html
Judaism is a monotheistic religion, strongly connected to a patriarchal God - Yahweh. It may surprise many people to discover that a goddess was associated with Judaism from its conception, and continued to play an important part, in various forms, to the present. The goddess is best known as Shekhina, a Talmudic term describing the manifestation of God's presence on earth.

While the Bible does not mention the name Shekhina, she is nevertheless bound to extremely old traditions, and closely relates to the ancient goddesses. Particularly significant is the Canaanite goddess Ashera who, at the beginning of the Israelites' settlement in the land of Canaan, was often referred to as Yahweh's Consort. The literature also calls her the "Holy Spirit" which, in Hebrew, is also a feminine form

[Kong]

Are demons real? I mean as the Bible says.If its in the bible it must be true ( Christians don’t lie, they just quote the bible).

[prst31]

Rooted in what? Your "negative energy" is a product of philosphy not science. Negative energy in Science only exists in antimatter "antienergy" and in negative potential energy due to gravity. Any speculation about negative emotions being caused by negative energy is just that. Negative emotions are called that because our society depicts them as such. However anger can be righteous or wrong. The anger emotion is part of what helps humans live as we do. It isn't even negative, and your body could never interact with negative energy except to annihilate.Rooted here. (http://www.whistlestopper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35721) What, it's not possible for science to extend beyond it's own box? Hell it's ultimate goal is to explain everything with one mathmatical formula is it not?

[Russikan]

Rooted here. (http://www.whistlestopper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35721) What, it's not possible for science to extend beyond it's own box? Hell it's ultimate goal is to explain everything with one mathmatical formula is it not?

Science does not explain the world by making things up and then describing things in fancy terms. I sometimes wonder why biology classes are doing so little. Give me a year and I garuntee they won't remember the different parts of a cell, but they will come a way much more grounded in reality than most everyone I deal with.

[Simba]

If you believe in the bible them you believe in demons.

Read the book of Mark, 1st chapter, and the demon possessed even follow Jesus into the synagogue, where he later casts them out. The next day, it says he casts out even more demons.

[Dangerrmouse]

As I said the KJV bible talks of "unclean spirits" and of "casting out devils" but no demons to speak of. Is this a subsequent reinterpretation?

[Simba]

As I said the KJV bible talks of "unclean spirits" and of "casting out devils" but no demons to speak of. Is this a subsequent reinterpretation?

Hell, even when I was a kid, unclean spirit, devils, demons.....was all the same things.

Got to ask a Rabbi about that one. Common thread right now in evangelical ministries is the "breakthrough," emphasizing the book of Mark in nationwide biblical studies. My daughters and I are practicing Catholics, but only because of my wife. I go to a protestant men's group though, once a week. With both diverse groups I have discussed this subject. Thus, my current understanding that they are demons. But I will ask again. I think what is telling is how they address Jesus, and know who he is........and are horrified why he has come.....that is what reveals them.

[prst31]

Science does not explain the world by making things up and then describing things in fancy terms. I sometimes wonder why biology classes are doing so little. Give me a year and I garuntee they won't remember the different parts of a cell, but they will come a way much more grounded in reality than most everyone I deal with.I took psychology, biology, and physics at the same time. It seemed like so many subjects cross-referenced each other and we are in the Religion/Philosophy thread. You're correct, I can't remember what all those cellular components are but I do recall discussions that related to one another in each subject. For example, speaking of cells, snip-The plasma membrane of neurons, like all other cells, has an unequal distribution of ions and electrical charges between the two sides of the membrane. The outside of the membrane has a positive charge, inside has a negative charge. This charge difference is a resting potential and is measured in millivolts. Passage of ions across the cell membrane passes the electrical charge along the cell. The voltage potential is -65mV (millivolts) of a cell at rest (resting potential). Resting potential results from differences between sodium and potassium positively charged ions and negatively charged ions in the cytoplasm. Sodium ions are more concentrated outside the membrane, while potassium ions are more concentrated inside the membrane. This imbalance is maintained by the active transport of ions to reset the membrane known as the sodium potassium pump. The sodium-potassium pump maintains this unequal concentration by actively transporting ions against their concentration gradients.
http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookNERV.html

Here we have a discussion of biology and physics do we not? And what is the source of this energy?
Look, just because my hypothesis is not found in some text book (to my knowledge) doesn't mean it's completely unfounded or "made up" with a cute story. I'm serious, I think there is a scientific connection to our physical, mental and spiritual being. That's not making anything up, it's observing relationships and analysing them to draw a rational conclusion. It doesn't mean I'm right but it doesn't mean there's no truth in what I'm seeing either.

[Russikan]

Here we have a discussion of biology and physics do we not? And what is the source of this energy?
Look, just because my hypothesis is not found in some text book (to my knowledge) doesn't mean it's completely unfounded or "made up" with a cute story. I'm serious, I think there is a scientific connection to our physical, mental and spiritual being. That's not making anything up, it's observing relationships and analysing them to draw a rational conclusion. It doesn't mean I'm right but it doesn't mean there's no truth in what I'm seeing either.

And how does any of this relate to "negative energy" something you made up. How can you think energy a scalar quantity can somehow be responsible for all the complexities of the human brain? Energy affects everything, but you wrongly set it up as something that determines how we feel. It creates feelings but what feelings it creates are determined by where the energy is not what type of energy. There is only one type of energy. (<------You know what I mean)

[gowachin]

As I said the KJV bible talks of "unclean spirits" and of "casting out devils" but no demons to speak of. Is this a subsequent reinterpretation?

In the Catholic bible (New American Bible) there is a book that is not in the KJV: The Book of Tobit.

There is a demon in Tobit, and it is even named: Asmodeus (Tobit 3:8).

There is also a named angel in the book: Raphael.

The Book of Tobit is simply a retelling of one of this planets oldest stories, the story of the "Greatful Dead". This story is where the band of the same name got its name.

[gowachin]

There is a difference between devils and demons.

Demons tended to be gods and godesses from other cultures. Asmodeus, originally Persian, Nisroc (head chef of hell)... Assyrian, Astarte... very ancient Indo-Eurpoean.

Devils, for the most part, are original creations of the Judeans. They were of a higher pedigree. They tended to be associated with the office of Satan. Beliel, Sammael, Mastema and Lucifer... for example.

There are, I'm sure, crossovers... as well as many angles of heaven having dual roles in hell.

[Stalebread2.5]

To be fair, I am a strong athiest and imagine I always will be. My view is also scientific, and so if it cannot be proved does not exsist in my general appinion and attitude.

I mean back in time people who had clearly documented mental problems now, would have been classed as possesed, because no other reason could be found. Daemons are like other unproved supersticous things, they are blamed for things that happen with no apparent reason and things that often cannot be proved. I can't believe that in the 20th centuary we are still holding onto such silly concepts. I mean have you honestly ever seen a daemon/devil or anything mythalogical in your life?

[gowachin]

Stalebread, I don't know if you are referring to my posts specifically, but to answer your question... no, I have never had a paranormal experience in my life. Unless you count the fact that my ex-girlfriend is the Devil!

I am not an athiest, but I don't follow any of the Abrahamic religions, either. I just love Judeo-Christian mythology. I've been fascinated by angles and demons all my life, but I don't believe that they exist.

[prst31]

How can you think energy a scalar quantity can somehow be responsible for all the complexities of the human brain? Energy affects everything, but you wrongly set it up as something that determines how we feel. It creates feelings but what feelings it creates are determined by where the energy is not what type of energy. There is only one type of energy. (<------You know what I mean)Did I say responsible? More like the brain is a conduit for the energy in a spiritual sense. Did I say determines? I don't know about that. I think I used the term "posseses".
Ever read much about String Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory) or the Theory Of Everything (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything), TOE and Religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything#TOE_and_religion), Relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity) and Energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy)?

[Russikan]

Did I say responsible? More like the brain is a conduit for the energy in a spiritual sense. Did I say determines? I don't know about that. I think I used the term "posseses".
Ever read much about String Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory) or the Theory Of Everything (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything), TOE and Religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything#TOE_and_religion), Relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity) and Energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy)?

I have read a great deal on all those things except how people attempt to relate the Theory of Everything to religion, my religious interests are mostly in pschology of and history of.

However, I still see that you emphazize energy as if it matters. It doesn't. either you hvae it and you think (about anything you are capable of thinking about) or you don't and you are dead. When you say negative energy posses the brain and cause "negative" emotions you are flying out of you ***. This is nonsense. In the real world we like to base theories off of information and experiments not wandering thoughts.

[prst31]

I have read a great deal on all those things except how people attempt to relate the Theory of Everything to religion, my religious interests are mostly in pschology of and history of.

However, I still see that you emphazize energy as if it matters. It doesn't. either you hvae it and you think (about anything you are capable of thinking about) or you don't and you are dead. When you say negative energy posses the brain and cause "negative" emotions you are flying out of you ***. This is nonsense. In the real world we like to base theories off of information and experiments not wandering thoughts. :) I appreciate the challenge really and see no need to get pirssed off about anything. Yes of course science is based off real world experiments yet begin with ideas pulled from their arss. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy

snip - In cosmology, dark energy is a hypothetical form of energy which permeates all of space and has strong negative pressure. According to the theory of relativity, the effect of such a negative pressure is qualitatively similar to a force acting in opposition to gravity at large scales. Invoking such an effect is currently the most popular method for explaining the observations of an accelerating universe as well as accounting for a significant portion of the missing mass in the universe.

snip - The exact nature of this dark energy is a matter of speculation. It is known to be very homogeneous, not very dense and doesn't interact strongly through any of the fundamental forces other than gravity. Since it is not very dense—roughly 10−29 grams per cubic centimeter—it is hard to imagine experiments to detect it in the laboratory (but see the references for a claimed detection). Dark energy can only have such a profound impact on the universe, making up 70% of all energy, because it uniformly fills otherwise empty space. The two leading models are quintessence and the cosmological constant.

either you hvae it and you think (about anything you are capable of thinking about) or you don't and you are dead.Or either we have it and it influences how we think, feel, live and is a part of and connected to the WHOLE of all energy, that is a constant quantity and we are effected by all aspects of, or we don't and are dead/transferred. :)

[DRMIZER]

The development of psychological theories, technology and drugs have pretty much eradicated the idea of both witches and demons.

[Russikan]

Or either we have it and it influences how we think, feel, live and is a part of and connected to the WHOLE of all energy, that is a constant quantity and we are effected by all aspects of, or we don't and are dead/transferred. :)

I have no idea what you mean by this statement. Could you please clarify?

[prst31]

I have no idea what you mean by this statement. Could you please clarify?Or either we have it ("It" being some energy also referred to as our spirit, making up our root being or our essence. Back to my theory of umm.../Police song "We are spirits, in a material world.") and it influences how we think, feel, live and is a part of and connected to the WHOLE of all enegy,("It" again being that energy, composing our essence, connected to and a part of all energy. Like a cell/universe analogy is to an atom/cell/human/universe analogy.) that is a constant quantity and we are effected by all aspects of, or we don't and are dead/transferred. (There is one set amount of energy in the universe. It is never gained nor lost, only transferred.)

[Russikan]

Or either we have it ("It" being some energy also referred to as our spirit, making up our root being or our essence. Back to my theory of umm.../Police song "We are spirits, in a material world.") and it influences how we think, feel, live and is a part of and connected to the WHOLE of all enegy,("It" again being that energy, composing our essence, connected to and a part of all energy. Like a cell/universe analogy is to an atom/cell/human/universe analogy.) that is a constant quantity and we are effected by all aspects of, or we don't and are dead/transferred. (There is one set amount of energy in the universe. It is never gained nor lost, only transferred.)

Oh I see, by energy you never meant energy you meant soul. I take it back you didn't make that up. You borrowed it from someone else.

Now as for what you said, since it's all pure speculation you shouldn't use an either/or fallacy. We could just as easily not have a soul because their is no such thing.

[ortholocks]

When I read about the history of the Christian church, and the stuff they wrote during the times this stuff was often written about, it seems the vast majority of demons “tow the line” of “evil” by making people with non Christian religions “feel” as thought they were powerful things.

Because this is weird I submit an example- when pagans have a ceremony to gods or ask to see the future or have a good harvest or whatever the demons come along and grant the wish or give the whole thing a mystic feel. So there day consists of keeping people on board with non Christian religions.

[sub_zer0]

The fact that Lucifer had already ruled the earth and become a fallen creature before Adam's time is proof that Adam and his race were not the first ones on earth. We are required to acknowledge that Satan's fall was before Adam's time because he was already a fallen creature when he came into Adam's Eden (Genesis 3; 2nd Cor. 11:2). Hence, he must have fallen with a pre-Adamite creation.

According to Isaiah l4:12-14 Lucifer actually invaded heaven from earth, hoping to defeat God and take His kingdom; but Lucifer himself was defeated and his kingdom cursed. Before his defeat he had a throne and therefore a kingdom and subjects to rule over. His kingdom was under the clouds, under the stars, and under heaven; therefore, on earth. Having weakened the nations over whom he ruled, and wanting to he like God and take His place in heaven, Lucifer led the invasion of heaven. All this had to he before Adam's day, for no such things have occurred since A dam was created.

In Ezek, 28:11-l7 we have a picture of Lucifer before he fell, as the anointed cherub or protector 0 f the earth, as being full of wisdom and perfect in beauty, as ruling in a garden of Eden before Adam, as being created of God and perfect in his ways up to the time of his fall. The passage gives the reason for his fall and the result of it. The only time this could have been true of Satan was before the days of Adam, thus proving a pre-Adamite world

In Jeremiah 4:23-26 we have a full description of the earth under a total curse, as in Gen. 1:2. It was desolate and empty, the heavens had no light, the hills and mountains were undergoing convulsions, there was no man, no bird, no animal, no fruitful place, and no city left standing because of God's fierce anger.