In God You Trust

[mugawump]

I was watching TV last night and the story of Babylon New York came up wherein the city had put up two banners, One gave thanks to our troops, and stated God Bless America, and the other simply said "God Bless America". Certain persons have raised a stink about separation of Church and State.

Well now, isn't that nice. I am christian, and I beleive in a type of God, but not the personal God-being that most religious people beleive in. My God might well be called "Mother Nature", I am an evolutionist. My reason for mentioning all this is that I don't care if someone else beleives in Christ-the-God, The Budda, or are Jewish, or Muslim, or Voodooist. Those signs (nor the symbols of another religion) do not constitute a threat or affront to me or anyone else. God is generic. And it has been said that there are no atheists on the battlefeild. I firmly beleive that.

If a person is offended by the mention of God, In this case, his or her own god. Then I feel very badly for them because they deny their own existance.

Our founding fathers did not mean to exclude all mention of god from our lives, but only to preclude the establishment of a dominant religious based government. (Such as was the English "Church of England. For any of you who feel that the mention of God is an affront. Please burn all your money One it is inscribed "IN GOD WE TRUST"

[::Major_Baker::]

I was watching TV last night and the story of Babylon New York came up wherein the city had put up two banners, One gave thanks to our troops, and stated God Bless America, and the other simply said "God Bless America". Certain persons have raised a stink about separation of Church and State.

Well now, isn't that nice. I am christian, and I beleive in a type of God, but not the personal God-being that most religious people beleive in. My God might well be called "Mother Nature", I am an evolutionist. My reason for mentioning all this is that I don't care if someone else beleives in Christ-the-God, The Budda, or are Jewish, or Muslim, or Voodooist. Those signs (nor the symbols of another religion) do not constitute a threat or affront to me or anyone else. God is generic. And it has been said that there are no atheists on the battlefeild. I firmly beleive that.

If a person is offended by the mention of God, In this case, his or her own god. Then I feel very badly for them because they deny their own existance.

Our founding fathers did not mean to exclude all mention of god from our lives, but only to preclude the establishment of a dominant religious based government. (Such as was the English "Church of England. For any of you who feel that the mention of God is an affront. Please burn all your money One it is inscribed "IN GOD WE TRUST"
Ahh, but you see, God is NOT generic to many. He is a certain guy who looks a certain way who told people to tell you exactly how to behave and act.
In fact, sometimes even people that believe in the same god hate eachotehr, because they interpret that same god differently. The exclusiveness is why I hate organized religion. ,Many schools of thought actually teach you to dislike, or at the least discredit, people with different beliefs.

you forgot to mention the segment of population who doesn't think there is a god, period....oh, and I bet there are athiests on the battlefield.

[rjamortega]

Ahh, but you see, God is NOT generic to many. He is a certain guy who looks a certain way who told people to tell you exactly how to behave and act.
In fact, sometimes even people that believe in the same god hate eachotehr, because they interpret that same god differently. The exclusiveness is why I hate organized religion. ,Many schools of thought actually teach you to dislike, or at the least discredit, people with different beliefs.

you forgot to mention the segment of population who doesn't think there is a god, period....oh, and I bet there are athiests on the battlefield.
Are there any organizations or clubs with exclusive membership that you do like? Are you a member of any? How about the mindset of the typical university student or grad. Seems most I meet harbor an intense pride which they openly display as they customarily lay waste on their crosstown rivals and perceived lesser schools.

And (not directed to you but anyone in general) what is it that makes us so detest believers like christians who profess their beliefs with so little impact? Big deal, they tell us how we should live while trying to influence some legislation. It's not like they want to throw us in burkahs or lop off our head for being naughty.

Heck I know of a group of "fundamentalist believers" who have legislated where I may and may not ride my mountain bike. So much prestine territory beckoning me to blaze new trails thru. But I obediantly comply at the risk of enforcement as these organized believers "tell me exactly how to behave and act".

The Religious Right's efforts don't hold a candle to these guys.

[towski]

Are there any organizations or clubs with exclusive membership that you do like? Are you a member of any? How about the mindset of the typical university student or grad. Seems most I meet harbor an intense pride which they openly display as they customarily lay waste on their crosstown rivals and perceived lesser schools.

And (not directed to you but anyone in general) what is it that makes us so detest believers like christians who profess their beliefs with so little impact? Big deal, they tell us how we should live while trying to influence some legislation. It's not like they want to throw us in burkahs or lop off our head for being naughty.

Heck I know of a group of "fundamentalist believers" who have legislated where I may and may not ride my mountain bike. So much prestine territory beckoning me to blaze new trails thru. But I obediantly comply at the risk of enforcement as these organized believers "tell me exactly how to behave and act".

These religious right's efforts don't hold a candle to these guys.

Ahhh, the culture of persecution. Never ceases to amaze me how christians, the vast majority in this country, are so put upon by the rest. Sad, really.

[mugawump]

you forgot to mention the segment of population who doesn't think there is a god, period....oh, and I bet there are athiests on the battlefield.Ah! but I did in fact reference them. in the following quoted paragraph:

If a person is offended by the mention of God, In this case, his or her own god. Then I feel very badly for them because they deny their own existance.

You must be too young. This was a paraphrase of a trueism which was well known after WW@, Which stated:

"There are no ATHEISTS on the battlefeild, because they deny their own existence"

SORRY 'bout that.

[towski]

I thought the phrase was there are no Atheists in Foxholes?

I think Major's point was that "In God we Trust" is offensive to people who do not believe in god, whether you feel "sorry" for them or not...

[rjamortega]

Ahhh, the culture of persecution. Never ceases to amaze me how christians, the vast majority in this country, are so put upon by the rest. Sad, really.
Please explain further. I'm not even a christian (or are you not referring to me?)!
Assuming you are though, how is it my post denotes a feeling of persecution while Major's does not? I fail to see Major's contempt as rational because he believes religious people have their head in their shorts anyway. And they certainly haven't succeeded in passing one bit of legislation that impacts or restricts his life. And yet he complains just the same. He certainly makes it sound as if he is "put upon". What exactly does he fear? :confused:

Just as an environmentalist has beliefs regarding the behaviour of society, so do religious people. It is only the issues which differ.

[towski]

Please explain further. I'm not even a christian (or are you not referring to me?)!
Assuming you are though, how is it my post denotes a feeling of persecution while Major's does not? I fail to see Major's contempt as rational because he believes religious people have their head in their shorts anyway. And they certainly haven't succeeded in passing one bit of legislation that impacts or restricts his life. And yet he complains just the same. He certainly makes it sound as if he is "put upon". What exactly does he fear? :confused:

Just as an environmentalist has beliefs regarding the behaviour of society, so do religious people. It is only the issues which differ.

Simmer. I'm not even sure what you are talking about.

I was referring to an overall feeling of persecution. If one holds a belief or opinion, and someone disagrees, or tries to legislate against ones belief, everyone immediately feels persecuted. To me, the most obvious and egregious example of this is the Christian Right, which holds the majority of power and wealth in this country, and yet continually has to motivate itself through descriptions of persecution by the "hysterical" left. (see how that all wraps up in a nice little bow ;) )

It's not "only the issues" that differ. It's the application and use of power and wealth that differ as well...

[::Major_Baker::]

Ah! but I did in fact reference them. in the following quoted paragraph:

If a person is offended by the mention of God, In this case, his or her own god. Then I feel very badly for them because they deny their own existance.

You must be too young. This was a paraphrase of a trueism which was well known after WW@, Which stated:

"There are no ATHEISTS on the battlefeild, because they deny their own existence"

SORRY 'bout that.
So you feel badly for them, but how do they feel? That is what I meant.
Just becasue you feel as if they are denying their own existence, certainly doesn't make it so.

I have heard the quote, and was countering it, because it is not true, in the least. War/fear has nothign to do with one's religion. Perhaps I am 'too young', although I wish I were younger still.

Curious, what do your fellow Christians think of your belief in evolution?

[::Major_Baker::]

Please explain further. I'm not even a christian (or are you not referring to me?)!
Assuming you are though, how is it my post denotes a feeling of persecution while Major's does not? I fail to see Major's contempt as rational because he believes religious people have their head in their shorts anyway. And they certainly haven't succeeded in passing one bit of legislation that impacts or restricts his life. And yet he complains just the same. He certainly makes it sound as if he is "put upon". What exactly does he fear? :confused:

Just as an environmentalist has beliefs regarding the behaviour of society, so do religious people. It is only the issues which differ.


I wasn't referring to legislation, maybe I wasn't being clear--I was referring to how God is not generic, like the poster stated. HE/she should be, but He's not. ;)

I fear other's beliefs being pushed on me, as the religious right is attempting to do with prayer in school, abortion issues, etc. Don't you fear that?

[rjamortega]

Reply to posts #8 & #10,

You have to show me where the Religious Right has successfully enacted legislation. There isn't any! So what power is it they hold? And more importantly how is their power affecting your lives?

Is prayer in school still an issue somewhere?!?! Anywhere it has been practiced it has been quickly smashed by the ACLU. Now that is power!
But I guess we all have something to fear.

[towski]

Reply to posts #8 & #10,

You have to show me where the Religious Right has successfully enacted legislation. There isn't any! So what power is it they hold? And more importantly how is their power affecting your lives?

Is prayer in school still an issue somewhere?!?! Anywhere it has been practiced it has been quickly smashed by the ACLU. Now that is power!
But I guess we all have something to fear.


RJ, it isn't about the religious right enacting legislation currently, although they do still try to do so. It's about the prior 200 years worth of legislation they enacted. Why can't I buy a bottle of Jack in Texas on a Sunday? Why can't I get a tattoo in Oklahoma? Why was "under god" added to the pledge of allegiance in the 1950's?

As for current legislation, it isn't really about enacting new laws. It's about a cling to old power. Things like sanctity of marriage, ID, Santorum stating that homosexuality should be considered a criminal activity, the current attempt at a constitutional amendment regarding marriage between a man and a woman, faith based initiatives, the Workplace Religious Freedom Act, stem-cell research, ban on human cloning, etc etc etc.

What power do they hold? Are you kidding? The president of the US is an avowed fundamentalist. The right wing of the republican party controls a large portion of the party machine. Bush has just appointed two religious conservatives to the supreme court. The majority of wealth in this country lies in the hands of white, christian men.... the beat goes on.

Their agenda isn't about grabbing more power, RJ. It's about holding on to the power they have, as long as possible.

[eugene40]

"There are no ATHEISTS on the battlefeild, because they deny their own existence"

SORRY 'bout that.


Interesting,,, I will have to tell that to the oh I don't know 10 friends I have in various special operations groups that are all confirmed aetheists. I might not be on a battlefield, but I have been in many a battle, a few where my life was at stake and I have walked into situations where death is a certain possibilty yet I am an aetheist. I really have no problem with death, it seems only christians have a big problem with dying. I am Thrill seeker,,, will climb, jump off of a cliff or out of a plane, dive, whatever you have to do I will pretty much do it, yet I am an aetheist. what a very ignorant statement.... I have always thought so.

Further ignorance,,, that aetheists somehow deny their own existence. Where do youo get that foolish idea from. What ever happen to Decartes "I think therefore, I am" (aetheists like philosophy) Aetheists deny the existence of god, not themselves. Now you as a christian believe that you are an extension of god or whatever backwards thing that you believe... You would be wrong, just as your belief that their are no aetheists on the battlefield. It is sad that people just walk around like this.

[MikeD4o7]

=rjamortega] And (not directed to you but anyone in general) what is it that makes us so detest believers like christians who profess their beliefs with so little impact? Big deal, they tell us how we should live while trying to influence some legislation. It's not like they want to throw us in burkahs or lop off our head for being naughty.

Heck I know of a group of "fundamentalist believers" who have legislated where I may and may not ride my mountain bike. So much prestine territory beckoning me to blaze new trails thru. But I obediantly comply at the risk of enforcement as these organized believers "tell me exactly how to behave and act".

The Religious Right's efforts don't hold a candle to these guys.


Did you really just imply that environmentalists have more power than the religious right? Do you really think the religious right has no impact?

I have friends that can't get married to each other like they want to because of the religious right... and yes... it IS because of the religious right. If you oppose homosexuality for some reason other than religion, then you are in the slim minority because I have yet to encounter a single person that can tell me why homosexuality is wrong without referring to religion.

Also just think about this before you think of this post as overly dramatic or overreacting. Imagine for a second that you do believe what I do...

Can you imagine how frustrating it is for me to see my friends to be discriminated against (as i see it) for no good reason... but because of what some ancient, largely mythological book says? It makes me want to pull my hair out.

[Scaryclouds]

First things first the correct quote is

"There are no aetheists in foxholes. It's not an argument agianst aethism but agianst foxholes."

Personally I don't think Ernie Pyle meant it literally but just sayign that if you are in a foxhole and all hell breaks loose many people had a way of finding religion fast. But once agian I don't think Pyle meant this literally and I am sure he knew full well and probaly meant many aethists in WW2 who served their country jsut as well as any person of faith.

Don't both christians and aetheists feel attacked upon? I really think the door swings both ways in this argument as both parties are attempting to have their agenda be the main one in the country. The main reason why it seems the aethists are "winning" or atleast holding their own is because per capita they far out rank christians in activism.

Last I must say to Eugene though I don't think we agree on a single thing here I must say you are one brave son of a *****. I know that if I was to die I would be going to heaven but you know if you die thats it, yet you still face death without fear, if thats not bravery I don't knwo what is.

[eugene40]

Last I must say to Eugene though I don't think we agree on a single thing here I must say you are one brave son of a *****. I know that if I was to die I would be going to heaven but you know if you die thats it, yet you still face death without fear, if thats not bravery I don't knwo what is.


How is that bravery, It is merely living, you can either be afraid of life or you can attack it and seek fun. Jumping out of planes,, climbing cliffs,, free or static. bungee jumping, cliff jumping, free diving, the more dangerous aspects of my job whatever. You feel the most alive when you are close to death at least I do. I mean really if you want to feel alive jump out of a plane and pull your chute and the last possibly second for a safe deployment,,, you will feel alive trust me... Or hang on to an edge by the sheer strength of your forearm and grip and pull yourself up. If we have only one life like I believe (though if any dogma of any religion about the afterlife I would believe in reincarnation) but why not live it to its utmost. Seek out all that it has to offer. leave nothing left to try and die knowing that you did all of it. I certainly don't want to die anytime soon,,, but I am ready,, and if I do I led a good life,,, had a lot of sex,, saw a lot of things, and experienced a hell of a lot of what this life had to offer. I would be one smiling corpse,, though I want to be cremated. to each their own.

[Scaryclouds]

No I wasn't referring to your thrill seeking but the fact that you been in battles and atleast by your account held no pause about jumping into the frey thats why I say you are brave.

[eugene40]

No I wasn't referring to your thrill seeking but the fact that you been in battles and atleast by your account held no pause about jumping into the frey thats why I say you are brave.


Ah,,, I would say it comes with the job.. But to be honest I have been doing it since I was a freshmen in high school. Been unsucessfully mugged at least 5 times(2 before I was 18). In fact most of my "fights" were between the years of 17 and 19. Have been shot at once. Have had three guns pulled on me, been stabbed, cut, smacked in the head with a bat. Hit by a car as a pedestrian. Have had three people go for my gun. And three people actually took steps to try to end my life. I am what you call a human excrement magnet. Always have been, probably always will be. I learned to deal with it. Never really hesitated, because I have had some very good teachers who taught me well and taught me to become comfortable in my skills. Have sought out further training whenever and where ever I can (which believe me is $$$$) If I die at the hand of another man,, it will either be because I screwed up, which my incessant training leads very little room for that. Or the other guy is just better sure I would like to not think that but I am realistic, but if that happens at least it is an honorable death and I will definetly leave my mark on him.

[mugawump]

I thought the phrase was there are no Atheists in Foxholes?

I was a teenager at the end of the war, and I have heard it Both ways.

I think Major's point was that "In God we Trust" is offensive to people who do not believe in god, whether you feel "sorry" for them or not...

I understood him, and answered him.

[mugawump]

So you feel badly for them, but how do they feel? That is what I meant.
Just becasue you feel as if they are denying their own existence, certainly doesn't make it so. I agree that just because I beleive it, doesn't make it so, but I also beleive that a forum such as this is offered as a place o discuss "OPINIONS"

I have heard the quote, and was countering it, because it is not true, in the least. War/fear has nothign to do with one's religion. Perhaps I am 'too young', although I wish I were younger still.I too would prefer to be younger (but still knowing what I do now)

Curious, what do your fellow Christians think of your belief in evolution???????????????? Obviously we think were are "RIGHT" in our beliefs(or they wouldn't be our beliefs)---Did you perhaps mis-state your question???----------------

[mugawump]

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns--the ones we don't know we don't know."--Donald Rumsfeld ????

HUH????

[::Major_Baker::]

----------------
I thought you stated that you are a christian that believes in evolution--there aren't many of you, that's why I asked. Many Christians that I know would deny the fact that you are a true Christian because of this.

HEHE, rumsfeld sure is a straight talker eh?

[TomAZ]

mugawump;

As you believe there are no Atheists in foxholes, your combat experience must have led you to be witness to this event. Please share your combat experiences with us, or are you just parroting a lie?

The truth of the matter is prayer is the first sign of panic, and panic costs lives. Yes, I've witnessed this.

[mugawump]

Ah,,, I would say it comes with the job.. But to be honest I have been doing it since I was a freshmen in high school. Been unsucessfully mugged at least 5 times(2 before I was 18). In fact most of my "fights" were between the years of 17 and 19. Have been shot at once. Have had three guns pulled on me, been stabbed, cut, smacked in the head with a bat. Hit by a car as a pedestrian. Have had three people go for my gun. And three people actually took steps to try to end my life. I am what you call a human excrement magnet. Always have been, probably always will be. I learned to deal with it. Never really hesitated, because I have had some very good teachers who taught me well and taught me to become comfortable in my skills. Have sought out further training whenever and where ever I can (which believe me is $$$$) If I die at the hand of another man,, it will either be because I screwed up, which my incessant training leads very little room for that. Or the other guy is just better sure I would like to not think that but I am realistic, but if that happens at least it is an honorable death and I will definetly leave my mark on him.

It is really none of my business, but I am very curious as to why you are such a magnet. and of course, you won't answer unless you want to, but From my own experience, I would assume (with your stated history), that you are either a Cop, Gay, or colored.

[mugawump]

I thought you stated that you are a christian that believes in evolution--there aren't many of you, that's why I asked. Many Christians that I know would deny the fact that you are a true Christian because of this.

No, I said I was "christian" (adjective) but not "A" Christian (noun). I beleive in much of the teachings of Christ, but not that Christ was a God-being.

HEHE, rumsfeld sure is a straight talker eh?

OH! YEH!!!!!!! :)

[mugawump]

[QUOTE=TomAZ]mugawump;

As you believe there are no Atheists in foxholes, your combat experience must have led you to be witness to this event. Why would you atomatically beleive that???

Please share your combat experiences with us, I have twelve years military service, fortunately for me, none of it was on the front lines

or are you just parroting a lie?What lie??? It was, and still is an "OPINION", right or wrong

The truth of the matter is prayer is the first sign of panic, and panic costs lives. As an atheist, I wouldn't expect you to know (or perhaps admit) this But prayer is a preparation and a protection to the person praying, not necessarily a panic attack (but actually, that "WOULD be the alleged reason for the action by an avowed atheist)

Yes, I've witnessed this. I suspect "THAT" is what you have witnessed.

"OK"????

[eugene40]

It is really none of my business, but I am very curious as to why you are such a magnet. and of course, you won't answer unless you want to, but From my own experience, I would assume (with your stated history), that you are either a Cop, Gay, or colored.


I am in law enforcement, yes. But, to be honest with you, I don't really know why I am a magnet. I mean I knew why I was in school. I was the kid that actually fought back against bullies. But afterwards, I have no freaking clue why, wannabe alpha males are drawn to me. Maybe it is my aura, maybe I am at the wrong place at the wrong time. Or the right place at the right time. Just take the other night I was in a bar, talking with some friends. Some guy got rough with a girl that I knew, I intervened,,, maybe I have a problem intervening Who knows, I just constantly find myself in interesting predictaments and fun new ways to get out of them,, most involve some sort of physical altercation, some just artfully crafted words, threats (though I am not really one to threaten)....
But I have been in many a battle,,, a few for my life. And despite the multiple times they do occur I still will walk straight into them because it is who I am... And I am an aetheist..... And I have several friends in various Military outfits, SEAL's, Rangers, Delta, and they are also aetheists. Why is it that you think aetheists are some sort of cowards that don't go into combat or into situations that risk their "self loathed" lives?

[Soc.Dem.]

"There are no ATHEISTS on the battlefeild, because they deny their own existence"


Which of course is not true.

[TomAZ]

[QUOTE=TomAZ]mugawump;


The truth of the matter is prayer is the first sign of panic, and panic costs lives. As an atheist, I wouldn't expect you to know (or perhaps admit) this But prayer is a preparation and a protection to the person praying, not necessarily a panic attack (but actually, that "WOULD be the alleged reason for the action by an avowed atheist)

Yes, I've witnessed this. I suspect "THAT" is what you have witnessed.

"OK"????

"THAT" is not what I witnessed. What I witnessed on two separate occasions were young men screaming for the jesus- god to save their lives to no avail. I think quite often of these guys because if it weren't for their superstitious beliefs they would probably be alive today, enjoying grand-kids.

[leapCCAD]

[QUOTE=mugawump]

"THAT" is not what I witnessed. What I witnessed on two separate occasions were young men screaming for the jesus- god to save their lives to no avail. I think quite often of these guys because if it weren't for their superstitious beliefs they would probably be alive today, enjoying grand-kids.


Are you saying that their belief in Jesus was a contributing factor in their death?



If a synchronized swimmer drowns, do all the others have to drown too? -Steven Wright

[TomAZ]

[QUOTE=leapCCAD][QUOTE=TomAZ]


Are you saying that their belief in Jesus was a contributing factor in their death?





Absolutely! Anyone in a total state of panic who expects to be plucked from danger by a magical hand from the sky poses a danger not only to himself, but also to those in close proximity. These kids were both yelling to their jesus-god for help, but the results would have been the same no matter what god they were screaming for.

[Strel]

Please explain further. I'm not even a christian (or are you not referring to me?)!
Assuming you are though, how is it my post denotes a feeling of persecution while Major's does not? I fail to see Major's contempt as rational because he believes religious people have their head in their shorts anyway. And they certainly haven't succeeded in passing one bit of legislation that impacts or restricts his life. And yet he complains just the same. He certainly makes it sound as if he is "put upon". What exactly does he fear? :confused:

Just as an environmentalist has beliefs regarding the behaviour of society, so do religious people. It is only the issues which differ.


Except that we don't have a constitutional provision that prevents environmentalists from preaching to you using the State's bullhorn.

So RECYCLE dude!

[leapCCAD]

[QUOTE=leapCCAD][QUOTE=TomAZ]


Are you saying that their belief in Jesus was a contributing factor in their death?





Absolutely! Anyone in a total state of panic who expects to be plucked from danger by a magical hand from the sky poses a danger not only to himself, but also to those in close proximity. These kids were both yelling to their jesus-god for help, but the results would have been the same no matter what god they were screaming for.


So it wasn't the bullet or bomb or weapon that killed them? They would have been impervious to death had they not called on a higher power,and thus "would probably be alive today"?????

[Russikan]

[QUOTE=TomAZ][QUOTE=leapCCAD]


So it wasn't the bullet or bomb or weapon that killed them? They would have been impervious to death had they not called on a higher power,and thus "would probably be alive today"?????

It's easier to get shot when screaming for God then when doing what you should be, like getting behind cover. In addition others are counting on you to lay suppressive fire, shoot the enemy, things like that. If you are too busy screaming to God everyone can get killed.

[leapCCAD]

[QUOTE=leapCCAD][QUOTE=TomAZ]

It's easier to get shot when screaming for God then when doing what you should be, like getting behind cover. In addition others are counting on you to lay suppressive fire, shoot the enemy, things like that. If you are too busy screaming to God everyone can get killed.



Who do the atheists scream to when they're being killed?

[TomAZ]

[QUOTE=TomAZ][QUOTE=leapCCAD]


So it wasn't the bullet or bomb or weapon that killed them? They would have been impervious to death had they not called on a higher power,and thus "would probably be alive today"?????


Nope. No bullet, bomb or weapon. Simply superstition-induced panic in both cases. Yep, they would probably be alive today.

[leapCCAD]

[QUOTE=leapCCAD][QUOTE=TomAZ]


Nope. No bullet, bomb or weapon. Simply superstition-induced panic in both cases. Yep, they would probably be alive today.


So why doesn't everyone who has called out to God die right there on the spot? As for superstition induced panic knocking on wood=death broken mirror=death black cat=death etc. etc. etc. :D

[Russikan]

[QUOTE=Russikan][QUOTE=leapCCAD]



Who do the atheists scream to when they're being killed?

Atheists get behind cover so they don't get shot, that' what I'm trying to say. However when they die I don't know, I've never seen an atheist die where he didn't see it coming (age, disease, execution) so I wouldn't know.

[TomAZ]

[QUOTE=TomAZ][QUOTE=leapCCAD]


So why doesn't everyone who has called out to God die right there on the spot? As for superstition induced panic knocking on wood=death broken mirror=death black cat=death etc. etc. etc. :D


Absurd question. You can hit the link to see what happened with the first guy.


http://www.hometown.aol.com/usspirate/page2.html


I found myself badly injured in some very cold water less than 10 ft. from this kid who was trying to climb an invisible ladder to the sky, and yelling to his jesus-god. He knew how to swim or he wouldn't have been in the Navy, and by his actions he didn't appear to be wounded. He was also creating enough commotion to present a good target for those ashore who were firing at us with artillery and small arms. He was still screaming when he slipped beneath the surface and had I been closer to him I'm sure he would have pulled me under with him.
So as you can imagine, I prefer not to be near people who start praying when the ****** hits the fan. Prayer is the first sign of panic.

The second incident occured about 15 years later in a combat zone, but not combat related. The victim knowingly ran in the wrong direction screaming for his jesus-god and paid for it with his life. Simply another case of superstition blotting-out rational thinking.

[mugawump]

I
Why is it that you think aetheists are some sort of cowards that don't go into combat or into situations that risk their "self loathed" lives?

In no way do I think atheists are cowards, or that they don't go into battle As I understand it ,Ernie Pyle coined the phrase, and he, as I, meant that those who professed to be atheists changed their mind and would pray right along with the so-called christians.

[mugawump]

TOmaz 29--Matter of opinion, but I wasn't there. You were.

[SFG75]

Our founding fathers did not mean to exclude all mention of god from our lives, but only to preclude the establishment of a dominant religious based government. (Such as was the English "Church of England. For any of you who feel that the mention of God is an affront. Please burn all your money One it is inscribed "IN GOD WE TRUST"

The inscription on money was a 1950s product, not one from the founding era. If we went by the principle of "strict constructionism" on everything, the superflous words would be nixed. The "establishment of" religion occurs whenever government leaders or institutions show a bias or mention of a particular sect. If you have prayer at a graduation or the christian flag on a state seal, you are in effect creating a Church of England. The "free exercise thereof" provision of our rights is when people on their own, without the compulsion of government-engage in the act of worshipping. The men that you so admire were a motley collection of Episcopalians, Unitarians, Quakers, as well as deists. I hate to break it to fundamentalists, but deists are not literal men. It was our 3rd President who cut out all miraculous tales of the new testament to make his own Bible of a Ghandi like nature-hence the name of the "Jefferson Bible." :cool:

[Russikan]

In no way do I think atheists are cowards, or that they don't go into battle As I understand it ,Ernie Pyle coined the phrase, and he, as I, meant that those who professed to be atheists changed their mind and would pray right along with the so-called christians.

So what do you have to say to the many atheists who have seen combat, haven't started praying and are in no form cowards as they have probably done more than you when it comes to bravery?

[DRMIZER]

Reply to posts #8 & #10,

You have to show me where the Religious Right has successfully enacted legislation. There isn't any! So what power is it they hold? And more importantly how is their power affecting your lives?

Have you looked in the Whitehouse in the past 6 years? How have they effected our life? You must be kidding. A religious right member started a war that has killed more than 2000 of us and many thousands of the enemy population. He has single-handedly destroyed our economy and doesn't have a clue whats next. How is their power affecting your lives? Let me think. . . . :thinking:

[DRMIZER]

Originally Posted by mugawump
"There are no ATHEISTS on the battlefeild, because they deny their own existence"Been in a foxhole. . . . . .Soldiers died. . . . . . .athiest all around. I believed in my existence or I wouldn't have fought. duh!

[TomAZ]

Atheists in foxholes
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The first use of the statement "There are no atheists in foxholes" has been traced to Lieutanant-Colonel William J. Clear in a story of Bataan's final weeks, delivered during the "Army Hour" program over the NBC Red (Radio) Network in 1942.

This phrase is most often used to imply either of two things::

That atheists are unpatriotic or disloyal or do not join or support the military. This usage frequently elicits responses from atheists who have served in the military. Statistically, the evidence is that atheists serve in the military services and are injured or killed in numbers proportional to their representation in the civilian population. The statement may have been technically true during WWII because atheism could not be specified as a religious preference in official documentation. Some atheists apparently listed "Buddhist" as the best alternative.
That atheists at risk of dying are inclined to assume belief in a god and pray to it in the hopes that it might save them from their plight ( Pascal's Wager); that their atheism is insincere and they will acknowledge a god when it suits their purposes. The concept that atheists become religious under fire has also been debunked by atheist veterans of combat.
------------------------------------------------------------

[mugawump]

So what do you have to say to the many atheists who have seen combat, haven't started praying and are in no form cowards as they have probably done more than you when it comes to bravery?

I don't know any of them, including you.

[Russikan]

I don't know any of them, including you.

You probably don't know any Jews, Muslims, Hindis, or Buddhists who have been in combat either. Luckily we still exist. Just curious, how many people do you know who have been in combat at all?

[mugawump]

You probably don't know any Jews, Muslims, Hindis, or Buddhists who have been in combat either. Luckily we still exist. Just curious, how many people do you know who have been in combat at all?

I have 12 years military service. Do you think I was hiding from all those fellow servicemen who "HAVE" been in combat????

Look, I have my opinion, you have yours _This conversation is getting very boring.

[Russikan]

I have 12 years military service. Do you think I was hiding from all those fellow servicemen who "HAVE" been in combat????

Look, I have my opinion, you have yours _This conversation is getting very boring.

Ooh, military service, good for you. So I guess that makes you the athourity on what other people think.

[FredFlash]

Our founding fathers did not mean to exclude all mention of god from our lives, but only to preclude the establishment of a dominant religious based government. (Such as was the English "Church of England.

The "No Establishment A Dominant Religious Based Government (like the Church of England)" Interpretation Of The Establishment Clause Is Hogwash! - Says James Madison


Counterfeit Christians and various scoundrels wishing to create an Unholy Union of Church and State have been conniving to foist the “No National Church like the Church of England” interpretation of the establishment clause upon the American people since it was formulated by the Devil and issued to Representative Laban Wheaton (Connecticut) twenty-two years after the First Amendment was written. Laban Wheaton was a Federalist who made no secret of his desire for the government to assume civil authority over the duty that we owe to the Creator. The first phase of his devilish scheme was to expand the two Congressional Chaplainships to impose a government established religion over the ten miles square of the District of Columbia.

Wheaton and Representative Timothy Pitkin (Massachusetts) challenged President James Madison’s 1811 veto of a bill incorporating an Episcopal Church in Alexandria in the District of Columbia. President Madison believed the bill established rules and procedures, that could not be amended by the church, to govern the selection and removal of the minister of the church. Madison claimed it violated the establishment clause.

Wheaton argued that Madison's view of the establishment clause was wrong because Congress had already established two religions “by electing, paying or contracting with their Chaplains.” Wheaton deemed the meaning of the establishment clause to be of very great consequence. [Note 1}

Representative Wheaton complained, on the floor of the House during the debate regarding the veto, that the people of the District of Columbia were never going to have any religion because it had been entirely excluded from the ten square mile area of the District. Wheaton held the twisted view that religion established by the people or by God (instead of the government) was not really religion.

James Madison, according to his later writings, actually agreed with Wheaton that Congress had (improperly) established two religions in 1789 by creating the Congressional Chaplainships. Madison was decades ahead of most American's thinking with regard to religious liberty and perceived evil lurking under the plausible disguise of the Congressional Chaplains. Madison was a genuine Christian and knew that the serpent was very subtle and the wicked one grows his evil up from small beginnings.

Madison realized that setting up an official national religion would require four steps: 1) the selection of a group of Americans to be subjected to the establishment, 2) selection of a religion for them, 3) election of some ministers of that religion and 4) making a law to establish the people's duty to support the ministers. The establishment of the Chaplainships was accomplished by taking all four steps.

To James Madison and many others, the only difference in the two Congressional religions established in 1789 and an official establishment of a national religion, was the number of ministers that had to be supported by the taxpayers and the number of Americans covered by the establishment. Madison feared that every provision short of the strict Christian principle of Separation of Religion and Government would leave crevices through which evil men (like Roy Moore, David Barton and D. James Kennedy) would attempt to introduce their seeds of bigotry to grow into persecution which Madison believed was like a monster, that feeding and thriving on its own venom, gradually swells to a size and strength overwhelming all laws divine and human.

Fortunately James Madison was transformed into Superman when the rights of conscience were under attack. The same House of Representatives that voted 100 to 0 to pass the bill that Madison vetoed, voted 71 to 29 to sustain the Presidents veto. The “No National Church” Interpretation was rejected in favor of the “Total Separation of Religion and Government” interpretation of the President. James Madison was thus installed as the authority on the meaning of the religion clauses.

During the Early Days of the Grand and Glorious Republic it was always James Madison's interpretation of the establishment clause that eventually prevailed in every dispute over its meaning. These early Church State disputes included the following:

Presidential Religious Recommendations

James Madison’s view that government religious recommendations were improper prevailed in 66 of the first 74 years of the young Republic. President Madison himself made the mistake of trying to accommodate Congressional requests for proclamations during the War of 1812 while at the same time making it clear that he claimed no civil authority over religion. President Madison claimed that his four proclamations employed a form and language meant to stifle any claim of political right to enjoin religious observances by resting his recommendation expressly on the voluntary compliance of individuals and even by limiting the recommendation to such as wished simultaneous as well as voluntary performance of a religious act on the occasion. [Note 2]
(To Be Continured)

[FredFlash]

(Continued)
The consequence of Madison's wartime proclamations were malice and bitterness. In 1832 Representative Gulian Verplanck of New York recalled, in a speech on the House floor, that the that the wartime political religious observances under state authority were kept with “too much of the old leaven of malice and bitterness” and the Gospel of the Savior was employed by ministers and politicians “to point political sarcasm and to rekindle partisan rage.”

A lesson was learned from President Madison’s mistake of mixing religion and politics and every President from 1816 to 1860 flatly refused to issue religious proclamations under any circumstances. In 1832, Henry Clay and the Counterfeit Christians in the Senate took advantage of an impending epidemic and schemed to pass a join resolution requesting President Andrew Jackson to issue a prayer and fasting proclamation. Clay's resolution passed in the Senate but it failed in the House, where Gulian Verplanck of New York closed his famous speech by recommending that Congress "leave prayer to be prompted by the devotion of the heart, and not the bidding of the State."

Congressional Prayer

Contrary to the widespread myth, there were no daily opening prayers in the First U S. Congress. If you know of any evidence of morning prayers in the official records of the First Congress, please tell me where it is.

Article III of the Northwestern Ordinance

There was a dispute over whether Article III of the Northwestern Ordinance obligated the government to support religion in the Ohio Territory. The U. S. Congress believed that it did not and several attempts to enact legislation to "give legal effect" to the “support of the gospel” interpretation of Article III never even made it out of committee.

Sunday Mail Delivery

The Sunday Mail dispute raged from 1810 to the development of the telegraph and railroad train systems. The subject of the controversy was an 1810 post office law that required the transportation and opening of the mail on Sundays. There were numerous attempts by the “Christian Party” to convince Congress to repeal the 1810l law, but they all failed. Representative Colonel Johnson of Kentucky, chairman of the House Post Office Committee, issued a famous report in 1830 that adopted James Madison’s view that religion was exempt from the cognizance of the government. One of the many petitions from citizens supporting the 1810 Post Office law declared that the establishment clause was intended to, “Leave the religion of the people as free as the air they breathe from government influence of any kind.”

Ten Commandment Displays in Federal Courts

The 1789 Judiciary Act did not include a requirement for the display of the Ten Commandments in Federal Courts. I am not convinced that such a suggestion was actually introduced in Congress.

During the Early Years of the Republic (1789 to 1860) there were no disputes over “one Nation under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance, “In God We Trust” on the nations coins or government displays of the Ten Commandments. The Federal Government respected God’s authority over the conscience of men and refrained from using its legislative authority to issue religious advice to the people.

Notes

[Note 1]: The establishment of the Congressional Chaplains was supported by some Congressmen to merely undermine the Separation of Church and State or to convince gullible constituents that the Congressmen were Christians. The Congressional Chaplains were clearly not established because the Congressmen were pious Christians who wanted to attend religious services conducted by the Chaplains. By all accounts, only a very few Congressmen actually attended the Chaplain’s services.

[Note 2] In 1812, it had been twenty-three years since Congress had requested the President to issue a religious recommendation. This strongly suggests that the First Congress did not believe that government religious recommendations were a wholesome practice except in extraordinary rare circumstances. Congress did not request the proclamations issued by John Adams.
(To be continued)

[FredFlash]

(Continued)
Sources of Information:

Read Laban Wheaton’s argument for the No National Religion interpretation at http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llac&fileName=022/llac022.db&recNum=489

Read the official record of the 71 to 29 vote in 1811 in the House of Representatives in favor of James Madison’s interpretation of the establishment clause at http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llac&fileName=022/llac022.db&recNum=496

Read New York Representative Gulion Verplacnk’s 1832 speech on the subject of Presidential Religious Recommendations at http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llrd&fileName=013/llrd013.db&recNum=490

Read the 1801 petition citizens and inhabitants of Wayne County, in the Northwest Territory praying for the support of the Gospel and for erecting the buildings necessary for the celebration of divine service. http://memory.loc.gov/cgibin/ampage?collId=llac&fileName=010/llac010.db&recNum=435

Read about the 1802 announcement of Senator Uriah Tracy of Connecticut that he would ask leave to bring in a bill the nest day to carry into effect the support for schools and religion in the Northwestern Territory. The official records show that Tracy did not attempt to introduce the bill. http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llac&fileName=011/llac011.db&recNum=8

Read about the 1802 appointment of a House committee to inquire into the matter of support of religion within the Territory of the United States Northwest of the river Ohio. The committee never reported the question to the floor.
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llhj&fileName=004/llhj004.db&recNum=68&itemLink=D?hlaw:18:./temp/~ammem_x5qA::%230040069&linkText=1

Read about the Bill reported out of committee (but not passed) in 1828 that would have authorized the use of federal land in the State of Ohio for the support of religion.
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llhj&fileName=021/llhj021.db&recNum=198&itemLink=D?hlaw:32:./temp/~ammem_pzaN::%230210199&linkText=1

Fred Von Flash