Miracles in Quran

[ArabGirl]

Sometimes som people may think that Quran is not precise when we talk about one sientific miracle that was mentioned in Quran... i hate to argue much about it... i just want to tell them that ONe is a chance...MANY= NO chances!

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

[ArabGirl]

Until the mid-20th century, the prevalent view across the world was that the universe was infinite, had existed forever and that it will continue to do so for all time. According to this view, known as the "static universe model," the universe had no end or beginning.

In maintaining that the universe is a collection of fixed, static and unchanging substances, this view has constituted the basis of materialist philosophy and has consequently rejected the existence of a Creator. However, as science and technology progressed during the 20th century, the static universe model has been completely uprooted.

We have now entered the 21st century and a new dawn is upon us. Through numerous experiments, observations and calculation conducted by some of the world's most prominent thinkers, modern physics has proven that the universe did indeed have a beginning, that it came into being from nothing in a single moment in a huge explosion. Furthermore, it has been established that the universe is not fixed and static, as materialists still stubbornly maintain. On the contrary, it is undergoing a constant process of movement, change and expansion. These recently-established facts all act as nails in the coffin of the static universe theory. Today, all these facts are universally accepted by the scientific community.

The origin of the universe is described in the Qur'an in the following verse:

He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. (Qur'an, 6:101)

This information is in full agreement with the findings of contemporary scientists. As we stated earlier, the conclusion that astrophysics has reached today is that the entire universe, together with the dimensions of matter and time, came into existence as a result of a great explosion that occurred a long time ago. This event, known as "The Big Bang," is the catalyst for the creation of the universe from nothingness. This explosion, all parties in the scientific community agree, emanated from a single point some 15 billion years ago. (See Harun Yahya, The Creation of the Universe, Al-Attique Publishers Inc. Canada, 2000)

Before the Big Bang, there was no such thing as matter. From a condition of non-existence in which neither matter, nor energy, nor even time existed-and which can only be described metaphysically-matter, energy, and time were all created in an instant. This fact, only recently discovered by modern physics, was announced to us in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago

[ArabGirl]

CREATION FROM HOT SMOKE
Scientists today are able to observe the formation of stars from a hot gas cloud. Formation from a warm mass of gas also applies to the creation of the universe. The creation of the universe as described in the Qur'an confirms this scientific discovery in the following verse:

He placed firmly embedded mountains on it, towering over it, and blessed it and measured out its nourishment in it, laid out for those who seek it-all in four days. Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come willingly or unwillingly." They both said, "We come willingly." (Qur'an, 41:10-11)

The Arabic word for "smoke" in the above verse is "dukhanun," which describes the hot, cosmic smoke in question. This word in the Qur'an, in pinpoint fashion, describes this smoke very accurately for it is a warm body of gas containing mobile particles connected to solid substances. Here, the Qur'an has employed the most appropriate word from the Arabic language for describing the appearance of this phase of the universe. Let us note that only in the 20th century have scientists discovered that the universe emerged from a hot gas in the form of smoke. 5

The fact that such information about the creation of the universe is given in the Qur'an is nothing short of a miracle of the Qur'an.

[ArabGirl]

Or [the unbelievers' state] are like the darkness of a fathomless sea which is covered by waves above which are waves above which are clouds, layers of darkness, one upon the other. If he puts out his hand, he can scarcely see it. Those Allah gives no light to, they have no light. (Qur'an, 24:40)

Measurements made with today's technology have revealed that between 3 and 30 percent of the sunlight is reflected at the surface of the sea. Then, almost all of the seven colours of the light spectrum are absorbed, one after another, in the first 200 metres, except for blue light (picture at left). Below a depth of 1,000 metres, there is no light at all (above picture). This scientific fact was pointed out in Sura Nur 40 in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago.
In deep seas and oceans, the darkness is found at a depth of 200 meters and deeper. At this depth, there is almost no light, and below a depth of 1,000 meters there is no light at all.61

Today, we know about the general formation of the sea, the characteristics of the living things in it, its salinity, as well as the amount of water it contains, and its surface area and depth. Submarines and special equipment, developed with modern technology, have enabled scientists to obtain such information.

Human beings are not able to dive to a depth of more than 70 meters without the aid of special equipment. They cannot survive unaided in the dark depths of the oceans, such as at a depth of 200 meters. For these reasons, scientists have only recently been able to discover detailed information about the seas. However, that the depth of the sea is dark was revealed in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago. It is certainly one of the miracles of the Qur'an that such information was given at a time where no equipment to enable man to dive into the depths of the oceans was available.

In addition, the statement in Surat an-Nur 40 "…like the darkness of a fathomless sea which is covered by waves above which are waves above which are clouds…" draws our attention to another miracle of the Qur'an.

Scientists have only recently discovered that there are sub-surface waves, which "occur on density interfaces between layers of different densities." These internal waves cover the deep waters of seas and oceans because deep water has a higher density than the water above it. Internal waves act like surface waves. They can break, just like surface waves. Internal waves cannot be discerned by the human eye, but they can be detected by studying temperature or salinity changes at a given location.62

The statements in the Qur'an run parallel precisely the above explanation. Certainly, this fact, which scientists has discovered very recently, shows once again that the Qur'an is the word of Allah.

[Russikan]

Or it could just be that people try very hard to see what isn't there and interpret things they way they want them to be.

Please Arabgirl, I have no right to silence you, but none the less I would like to state in very clear terms that these types of posts are pointless. Nobody will convert and nobody should convert because of a bunch of nonsense about miracles online.

I want to warn you that it is a waste of your time to do this, and honestly a waste of time for everyone who reads it.

[ArabGirl]

hehehe, i can accept the critism of someone who read and argue, because he have some ground to start from... but if you were lazy to know, you dont have to argue and underestimate others believes under the name of "waste of time"... if u have such a valuable time, please dont waste it on underestimating others!

[Russikan]

hehehe, i can accept the critism of someone who read and argue, because he have some ground to start from... but if you were lazy to know, you dont have to argue and underestimate others believes under the name of "waste of time"... if u have such a valuable time, please dont waste it on underestimating others!

All I am telling you is that this type of conversation goes nowhere fast. I read everything before hand just in case it was different then what I expected. It wasn't. I generally don't argue this type of thing except in person because online I find that I am fairly unclear and often people mistake my meaning. However if you say anything that really get's my goat then you'll hear from me in detail. Till then I'll wait for someone whom can clearly express themselve to take the reigns.

[ArabGirl]

u know i quit writting in this forum for a while coz of ppl like u
but now im Quiting forever
goodbye

[Russikan]

u know i quit writting in this forum for a while coz of ppl like u
but now im Quiting forever
goodbye

So could anyone please tell me if I was really that bad? Or bad at all?

And to Arabgirl should you read this. Could you please explain what I did to offend you? I would like to know for future reference. I told you I don't like to talk about some things because I am apparently very unclear about what I mean. Chances are whatever has upset you was not what I meant at all.

[towski]

some people don't take it well when you question their prosetlyzing. You did nothing wrong, but I don't think arabgirl will make a very good missionary.

[Scaryclouds]

I think she talked on this site for the wrong reasons. I think she hoped to change/convert people, which is rarley the case. And espically when it comes to religion you can't expect a person to go from one religion to another.

[ArabGirl]

He didn't even read what i wrote he just came and started to crticise! i dont expect anyone to change or convert at all... im just trying to change the black image u have a bout Islam and muslims.... this is not the first time when i write something and no one read it , and they start to criticise it based on thier preexperience without reading what i spend effort on..whats the point of being on this forum then... no thanks!

[GI Joe]

Here is the foremost expert on the Universe

http://www.hawking.org.uk/home/hindex.html

[Russikan]

He didn't even read what i wrote he just came and started to crticise! i dont expect anyone to change or convert at all... im just trying to change the black image u have a bout Islam and muslims.... this is not the first time when i write something and no one read it , and they start to criticise it based on thier preexperience without reading what i spend effort on..whats the point of being on this forum then... no thanks!

I already said that I did read it. I wonder why you think I was critisizing it. All I said was that these types of conversation go nowhere fast. Which it has. Look at what is being disscussed. Nothing even close to what you started with.

And as for the "black image I have about Islam" I laugh at you. Firstly, this forum is composed mostly of rational thoughtful people. I think very few of them have a "black image" of Islam. Maybe some of them have wet dreams about genocide but I can assure you that plently of other people are involved as well, Liberals and the French come to mind. As for me specifically. Nothing could be further from the truth. My best friend for the last 22 years has been a Pakistani Muslim. However when dealing with Islam in general, I do quite often critisize it, just as I do Christianity, Judaism, Wicca, Buddhism, Hinduism (I don't know how to turn that into a noun) and just about every other religion you can think of. Just because I critisize it though does not mean that I do not even like it. I criticize Catholicism more than anything else even though I was Catholic for quite some time.

If you can't take criticism of you religion (not that I even said anything about Islam only about this type of thread) then you shouldn't create a thread on it. I have many opinions, and when I post on something I do so expecting someone to call me a moron. Here at least I also expect someone to bring up a very good objection. Please tell me what it was that I said that offended you so much.

[Michele]

Or it could just be that people try very hard to see what isn't there and interpret things they way they want them to be.

Please Arabgirl, I have no right to silence you, but none the less I would like to state in very clear terms that these types of posts are pointless. Nobody will convert and nobody should convert because of a bunch of nonsense about miracles online.

I want to warn you that it is a waste of your time to do this, and honestly a waste of time for everyone who reads it.

ah then I suppose you feel the same way about posting miracles as they are outlined in the christian bible? or praddling on about the creation myth?

[Michele]

Firstly, this forum is composed mostly of rational thoughtful people.

but for the folk on the forum who praddle on about intelligent design and push forth creatism in the face of good scient AS IF the good bible as if it is the only true word on all things. In this case Arab Girl pulls sections of the Koran that have been argued (and even by some scientists) concur with what became scientific understanding on certain realities in terms of evolution as well as our galaxy.

understanding of our galaxy can be traced back to sumerian cuneform.



I think very few of them have a "black image" of Islam.

that's funny, as well as debatable.

so the question is when christians present themselves on the forum do you immediately jump in accusing them of attempting to convert us, or are the beliefs they present just debated as any other topic would be on this forum?

is placing quotes from the bible to be discouraged as well, merely because other posters might interpret posting from the bible as an attempt to convert us to christianity?

Seemed to me Arab Girl placed koranic verse to illustrate that some of what arises in the koran exhibited some semblance of scientific reality. I can't argue whether it is true or false, however I have read debates of this nature as presented by scientists who concur with the assertion on certain references within the koran. and no they are not all muslim scientists.

that is the heart of the debate as presented by Arab Girl in this thread. not whether she attempts to convert us. I can't imagine where you got that idea to tell you the truth.

[Russikan]

ah then I suppose you feel the same way about posting miracles as they are outlined in the christian bible? or praddling on about the creation myth?

Yes, I do.

[Russikan]

but for the folk on the forum who praddle on about intelligent design and push forth creatism in the face of good scient AS IF the good bible as if it is the only true word on all things. In this case Arab Girl pulls sections of the Koran that have been argued (and even by some scientists) concur with what became scientific understanding on certain realities in terms of evolution as well as our galaxy.

understanding of our galaxy can be traced back to sumerian cuneform.

that's funny, as well as debatable.

so the question is when christians present themselves on the forum do you immediately jump in accusing them of attempting to convert us, or are the beliefs they present just debated as any other topic would be on this forum?

is placing quotes from the bible to be discouraged as well, merely because other posters might interpret posting from the bible as an attempt to convert us to christianity?

Seemed to me Arab Girl placed koranic verse to illustrate that some of what arises in the koran exhibited some semblance of scientific reality. I can't argue whether it is true or false, however I have read debates of this nature as presented by scientists who concur with the assertion on certain references within the koran. and no they are not all muslim scientists.

that is the heart of the debate as presented by Arab Girl in this thread. not whether she attempts to convert us. I can't imagine where you got that idea to tell you the truth.

And some scientist have argued that Intelligent Design is feasible, I have equally litte respect for their arguments.

Do you know that their is a similar quote about stretching of the universe in the Torah or Old Testamnet? I would equally object to someone attempting to use that quote to "prove" the miracles of the Bible.

To put this very simply Michele, I am an atheist. All religions are equally meaningless to me. You are a liberal. This means in practical terms you complain about Christians doing anything and then accept the same bull**** from anyone else in the name of Political Correctness.

I am an equal opportunist when it comes to religious threads. I don't much like any of them.

I am sorry if you are offended by my assertions, but regardless that is the impression I have recieved from you in this forum. I am loath to blame irratinoal PC for someones motives in a subject but I must wonder what else would cause you to defend something so similar to what you decry at other times.

[Michele]

Yes, I do.


well so do I, however in every case I wouldn't say the debates are introduced to convert us. even when argued by devout christians on this thread. While I understand christianity is also on a crusade in terms of converting the world, I can't cite christian posters on this forum sole purpose for being here is to convert us. And that can not be said about Arab Girl either.

As I said it has been noted and debated amongst scientists some of the astute references to scientific realities within not only the Koran, but other ancient scripts found within the ME including sumerian cuneform.

That as far as I can see was Arab Girl's point. I did not get it had anything to do with prothelytizing for the purposes of converting us.

[USViking]

The only miracles I will ever accept are miracles
I see myself, along with everyone one else in the
entire world, simulataneously.

Such as the stars reforming themselves in the sky
in the form of the word "God", or some such thing.

That rules out everything in the Koran, the Bible,
the Torah, the Vedas, etc, etc, etc, all of whose
miracles I rank with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

I will tolerate, if not respect the beliefs of others
as long as they tolerate my own disbelief.

What does the Koran say about atheists, anyway?

[Michele]

And some scientist have argued that Intelligent Design is feasible, I have equally litte respect for their arguments.

Do you know that their is a similar quote about stretching of the universe in the Torah or Old Testamnet? I would equally object to someone attempting to use that quote to "prove" the miracles of the Bible.

To put this very simply Michele, I am an atheist. All religions are equally meaningless to me. You are a liberal. This means in practical terms you complain about Christians doing anything and then accept the same bull**** from anyone else in the name of Political Correctness.

I am an equal opportunist when it comes to religious threads. I don't much like any of them.

I am sorry if you are offended by my assertions, but regardless that is the impression I have recieved from you in this forum. I am loath to blame irratinoal PC for someones motives in a subject but I must wonder what else would cause you to defend something so similar to what you decry at other times.

no you misinterpret. I am not offended by your assertions specific to the subject. that being how relevant are the versus to actual science. I can't crack down on the koran in this regard as emphatically as i do christian claims upon genesis 1) because I have never read or been introduced to the Koran, while 2) I have read genisis. I can only criticize that which I know.

what I respond to is not your refutation of the koranic claims. what i respond to is your immediate assumption that Arab Girl attempts to convert. To dispute that there was any scientific savvy within the Koran is one thing. To immediately suggest that Arab Girl placed the Koranic versus specifically because she intends to convert us is quite another thing.

as for your pot shot at what you presume is my liberalism, that I will let pass. You actually seem to believe that most posters here do not have an almost immediate aversion to the Koran as a whole. With that assertion I beg to differ. for the same posters that in deed do have an immediate and complete aversion to the Koran and Islam are the same posters many times that are dishonest about the more negative implications of the bible. That is generally what I respond to the christian and/or american double standard in terms of tolerance.

but you can attempt to characterize me as you see fit. I have no problem with that. I would classify myself as both a humanist and an agnostic, in that I don't have an aversion to a belief in god. I have an aversion to dogmatic inclusivity in terms of the practice of any religion.

At times I think all religion should be outlawed for they all have the propensity to spread hate including judeo-christianity. As far as history I don't take them with any weight either. I just am not versed in the Koran and it becomes clear that the posters one can view who indeed do slam the whole of that religion aren't coming from much of a frame of reference either. most times they run around the forum with a handful of hadiths some I have noted over time as having been pulled completely out of context wherein they smear a whole people, and a whole religion.

you wish to argue the validity of Koranic reference to scientific realities in specific terms, I don't have a problem with that. You instead want to argue that Arab Girl intends to convert us. Here is where my problem arose.

[Michele]

What does the Koran say about atheists, anyway?

perhaps the same thing the bible says of non-believers, heretics and pagans and witches? We know how the latter three were handed by Political Christianity during times of peace and times of war. We are also aware of what radical Islamists have to say about non-believers in terms of their current Jihad as well. in terms of atheism from a political perspective, wasn't atheism part of US's criticism of communism? it being a godless polemic? Does it necessarily follow that godless thought is any less practical or utilitarian than thought of God? Did the Soviet Union fall BECAUSE of atheism?

BTW I have no problem with atheism either. Nor am I an advocate for dumping on atheists. At times I question any belief in God. Personally, I am aware that I might entertain a belief in God is directly the result of a larger conditioning that exists within my own country. I am as comfortable entertaining god exists as entertaining that he doesn't and view the cycles of creation or distruction in physical or meta physical terms can be as awesome.

There have been times in my life that on and off when I have found mediatation on a higher power calming if not empowering.... but meditation on screw or a bolt I presume would result in the same calm...

At this point having suffered a psychological set back due to RR-PTSD... I am well off kilter in terms of any form of mediative practice --- at times it is AS IF I have adult ADD. Any time I have indulged any of the meditative practices, I have done so not through any of the monotheistic practices, but via the philosophies of the east.

I can't say I view any of the Abrahamic Books as science books.

[USViking]

perhaps the same thing the bible says of heretics and pagans? both during times of peace and times of war
Why don't you answer the question?

I am not at all sure the words "atheist" and "heretic"
appear, or are alluded to in the Bible, and I am not
sure the faithful are enjoined to molest unbelievers,
at least in the New Testament.

And of course they have been left pretty much alone
now in the West for some 200 years, even if they have
only more recently been given full civili rights.




. in terms of atheism from a political perspective wasn't atheism part of US's criticism of communism. it being a godless polemic?
That is correct- and the polemics had no practical effect
on the lives of atheists in the West, with heresy having
long ago attained the status of an archaicism.

In fact, in the US, full rights were explicitly granted to
atheists at the height of the Cold War, polemics or no polemics.

In my own home state of North Carolina the Attorney General
was in about 1980 moved to issue a public pronouncement that
articles in the state's constitution barring atheists from
elective office were "cleary unconstitutional" under the
US Constitution.

[Michele]

Why don't you answer the question?

I am not at all sure the words "atheist" and "heretic"
appear, or are alluded to in the Bible, and I am not
sure the faithful are enjoined to molest unbelievers,
at least in the New Testament.

I am not sure it matters whether or not there is a direct edict scripted within the the books of Judeo christianity, however it was from these books that so called heretics and pagans were compared and we indeed do know through out history just how heretics and pagans were treated. that treatment protected by the word of God.

Just as we know how radical islam would address aethists. I assume they are considered non-believers. So I did answer your question.

[Russikan]

no you misinterpret. I am not offended by your assertions specific to the subject. that being how relevant are the versus to actual science. I can't crack down on the koran in this regard as emphatically as i do christian claims upon genesis 1) because I have never read or been introduced to the Koran, while 2) I have read genisis. I can only criticize that which I know.

what I respond to is not your refutation of the koranic claims. what i respond to is your immediate assumption that Arab Girl attempts to convert. To dispute that there was any scientific savvy within the Koran is one thing. To immediately suggest that Arab Girl placed the Koranic versus specifically because she intends to convert us is quite another thing.

----------------------

but you can attempt to characterize me as you see fit. I have no problem with that. I would classify myself as both a humanist and an agnostic, in that I don't have an aversion to a belief in god. I have an aversion to dogmatic inclusivity in terms of the practice of any religion.

At times I think all religion should be outlawed for they all have the propensity to spread hate including judeo-christianity. As far as history I don't take them with any weight either. I just am not versed in the Koran and it becomes clear that the posters one can view who indeed do slam the whole of that religion aren't coming from much of a frame of reference either. most times they run around the forum with a handful of hadiths some I have noted over time as having been pulled completely out of context wherein they smear a whole people, and a whole religion.

you wish to argue the validity of Koranic reference to scientific realities in specific terms, I don't have a problem with that. You instead want to argue that Arab Girl intends to convert us. Here is where my problem arose.

And I dod not claim that Arabgirl posted solely to convert us, I said only that no good would come of this thread. And while I may be proven wrong in light of the current situation any good that does come about will not have anything to do with the origional purpose of the thread.

as for your pot shot at what you presume is my liberalism, that I will let pass. You actually seem to believe that most posters here do not have an almost immediate aversion to the Koran as a whole. With that assertion I beg to differ. for the same posters that in deed do have an immediate and complete aversion to the Koran and Islam are the same posters many times that are dishonest about the more negative implications of the bible. That is generally what I respond to the christian and/or american double standard in terms of tolerance.

Now I see it is not Political Correctness that caused this, which is why I usually try to avoid blaming something such as that and only did so in the hear of the moment. It is instead that you misunderstood my posts and assumed that I was condeming her for attempting conversion when all I was doing was warning her away from a discussion which rarely ends well.

As for what seems to be your worry over these Muslim hating posters. Why don't you compile a list? I highly doubt many people would agree with your list. I think you misjudge many of the posters here.

[Michele]

the origional purpose of the thread.

and what do you preceive that to have been?

Why don't you compile a list?

compile a list of what?

I highly doubt many people would agree with your list.

based on what? no list has been presented, nor am I sure the islamo or arabo-phobes on the forum can be counted upon to comment upon a bias that I am not altogether sure they recognize.

I think you misjudge many of the posters here.

you have lost me entirely. as I haven't provided a list of anything and I can't say I outlined in exact terms what I was referring to. How can you conclude anything, let alone whether or not whom it is I have alluded to have been misjudged?

all that said, I am not interested in taking this thread on a tangent that is unrelated to the topic of the thread. Nor am I interested in defending my opinions on the islamo or arabophobia that is in evidence on this forum from one degree to another. This thread aside, but the phobias to which I allude is in evidence and many times (or sometimes) doesn't even base itself within any real frame of reference.


But for the most part... as I already stated I was merely commenting on the supposition that Arab Girl had a sinister motive for opening this thread as well as on your immediate response to the thread which suggested she should post this stuff here. Thus far you would be hard pressed to convince me that her ulimate motive was to use the premis of this thread to convert.

she merely pointed out her belief that some verses within the koran outline miracles and bring forth descriptions that uphold observations that are scientifically sound. Beyond that I myself didn't pick up any motive beyond that which she already explained. both assertions are subjects that can be debated. To suggest she not post in relation to the koran, which was your immediate suggestion, is what I responded to. Even as a liberal than --- if she should stop posting her beliefs (merely on your say so) I would suggest Admin consider than that the christians should stop posting their beliefs in terms of the bible as well.

Perhaps we should only have the thoughts and beliefs of secularists and atheists presented on this forum then?

[el nopal]

I believe in miracles. I believe everyone can see miracles.

I even believe that the Quran has miracles in it.

Certainly the poet Hafiz has some miracles. Quite seductive miracles at that....

[Russikan]

and what do you preceive that to have been?

complie a list of what?

based on what? no list has been presented, nor am I sure the islamo or arabophobes on the forum can be counted upon comment.

you have lost me entirely. as I haven't provided a list of anything and I can't say I outlined in exact terms what I was referring to. How can you conclude anything, let alone whether or not whom it is I have alluded to have been misjudged?

all that said, I am not interested in taking this thread on a tangent that is unrelated to the topic of the thread. Nor am I interested in defending my opinions on the islamo or arabophobia that is in evidence on this forum from one degree to another. This thread aside, but the phobias to which I allude is in evidence and many times (or sometimes) doesn't even base itself within any real frame of reference.

The entire thread has so far been a tangent since the first non-Arabgirl post. Thank el nopal for getting back on topic.

As for the rest all I am saying is that I do not see Islamaphobia, I do see a very few people who delight in the death of just about anybody. But no one who holds anything against Islam.

I'm curious why you seem to think that you know better than I arabgirls purpose. I don't even claim to know it at all. Theorectically where I in her position I would do the same to start an argument and prove myself right. But that's just the type of person I am. Obviously Arabgirl had a different purpose one which I don't even know. What do you think it is?

[Michele]

The entire thread has so far been a tangent since the first non-Arabgirl post. Thank el nopal for getting back on topic.

As for the rest all I am saying is that I do not see Islamaphobia, I do see a very few people who delight in the death of just about anybody. But no one who holds anything against Islam.

I'm curious why you seem to think that you know better than I arabgirls purpose. I don't even claim to know it at all. Theorectically where I in her position I would do the same to start an argument and prove myself right. But that's just the type of person I am. Obviously Arabgirl had a different purpose one which I don't even know. What do you think it is?

I don't suppose to guess beyond what Arabgirl already stated. I merely mentioned that I didn't believe her motive was to convert. My comments were motivated by your immediate response to her post.

According to ArabGirl as she stated, she merely pointed out her belief that some verses within the koran outline miracles and bring forth descriptions that uphold observations that are scientifically sound.

Both assertions are subjects that can be debated, as I already noted. To suggest she not post in relation to the koran, which was your immediate suggestion, is what I responded to. You will forgive me, however, I found your immediate response somewhat out of line as well as irrelevant to the debate that Arab Girl introduced.

Even as a liberal than --- if she should stop posting her beliefs (merely on your say so) I would suggest Admin consider than that the christians should stop posting their beliefs in terms of the bible as well.

Perhaps we should only have the thoughts and beliefs of secularists and atheists presented on this forum then? It is a rhetorical question as I have no interest in continuing in personal terms. You are the one that insists upon defending your original reaction to Arab Girl's thread, to the degree that it prompted you to insinuate on personal terms.

[Michele]

I believe in miracles. I believe everyone can see miracles.

I even believe that the Quran has miracles in it.

Certainly the poet Hafiz has some miracles.


Is this the Hafiz you are referring to?

"The miracles of Khwaja Hafiz Paak (rahmatullahi alaihi) are too numerous to mention; but one at least shall be recanted here. Once Hafiz Paak (rahmatullahi alaihi) was passing a temple with some of his mureeds during a festival. Seeing what was transpiring, he entered and asked the people, "why is your idol not eating all the food you are offering it?" The people were dumbfounded, but their astonishment redoubled when the great wali commanded the idol to comply, and in front of all those present it suddenly animated and began to eat the food in front of it! It was this type of contact that our elders had with the Holy Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasallam) and Allah. With this intensely charged spirituality, they arose and spread Islam to the farthest corners of the earth, showing us all the deepest of divine miracles: which is that by love and selfless sacrifice - and not the sword - they won the hearts and minds of millions to the path of our beautiful religion."



Quite seductive miracles at that....

seductive in what sense?

[Russikan]

I don't suppose to guess beyond what Arabgirl already stated. I merely mentioned that I didn't believe her motive was to convert. My comments were motivated by your immediate response to her post.

According to ArabGirl as she stated, she merely pointed out her belief that some verses within the koran outline miracles and bring forth descriptions that uphold observations that are scientifically sound.

Both assertions are subjects that can be debated, as I already noted. To suggest she not post in relation to the koran, which was your immediate suggestion, is what I responded to. You will forgive me, however, I found your immediate response somewhat out of line as well as irrelevant to the debate that Arab Girl introduced.

Even as a liberal than --- if she should stop posting her beliefs (merely on your say so) I would suggest Admin consider than that the christians should stop posting their beliefs in terms of the bible as well.

Perhaps we should only have the thoughts and beliefs of secularists and atheists presented on this forum then? It is a rhetorical question as I have no interest in continuing in personal terms. You are the one that insists upon defending your original reaction to Arab Girl's thread, to the degree that it prompted you to insinuate on personal terms.

Des pite tthat I do not understand much of what you are saying I will go ahead and say again that I am not insisting she not post about the Koran, I am warning her that such a topic as this will never become of value in this forum. Please prove me wrong. But first you would have to stop talking about what I said as if it where justifibly offensive.

[ArabGirl]

Im glad to see that many people has got my point :D
For Russikan im sorry you took it very personal... Im sorry if you got my point wrong, its your own opinion and i respect it!
thanks for everybody elese

[Sauniere]

I believe in miracles. I believe everyone can see miracles.

I even believe that the Quran has miracles in it.

Certainly the poet Hafiz has some miracles. Quite seductive miracles at that....

I do not believe in miracles. I am too grounded in science. If anyone has witnessed a miracle firsthand I would love for them to express it here.

For me this is like believing in Ghosts, but I have not seen anything to convince me.
Or saying you say Aliens from outer space. Or Angels. Etc.

[Michele]

I do not believe in miracles. I am too grounded in science. If anyone has witnessed a miracle firsthand I would love for them to express it here.

For me this is like believing in Ghosts, but I have not seen anything to convince me.
Or saying you say Aliens from outer space. Or Angels. Etc.

I think for the most part anything that anyone might offer up as a miracle, ultimately can be explained in scientific terms. However, there have been some cases wherein by all definition someone p ronounced dead have come back to life, even surprising the medical staff to the degree that there was no medical or scientific explanation available for the recovery.

these pass as miracles, no? I mean, that which occurs wherein there is no current medical or scientific explanation available.

[Russikan]

Im glad to see that many people has got my point :D
For Russikan im sorry you took it very personal... Im sorry if you got my point wrong, its your own opinion and i respect it!
thanks for everybody elese

No problem. At least half of this is my fault. I told you I am not very clear online. And I think that I guess correctly that English is neither of our first languages.

As for what you were saying, I think the first thing to do in any discussion of miracles is define what we mean by miracle and arrive at a consensus. Otherwise progressing farther is difficult.

[Nuke the Oil]

As I said it has been noted and debated amongst scientists some of the astute references to scientific realities within not only the Koran, but other ancient scripts found within the ME including sumerian cuneform.

What does Sumerian cuneform have to do with Islam? Any "scientific knowledge" in the Koran (or Bible for that matter) was probably culled from older traditions that would have laughed at the monotheistic structure of Islam. Many ancient civilisations were obsessed with the movements of the heavens, providing a potential source of knowledge. And sometimes the writers of the Koran might just get lucky. You know what they say, even a broken clock is right twice a day...

[Michele]

What does Sumerian cuneform have to do with Islam?

nothing but for geography. I didn't mean to equate sumerian lore (or cuneform) with Islam as it predates all three monotheisms and well might have influenced all of them. I have heard some cite what can be equated as a genesis story within sumerian cuneform as well as knowledge of the cosmos in scientific terms. The sumerians lived in what is modern day Iraq.

I never addressed an argument as to the validity of Islam or Qur'anic verse to modern day science either. Their mention of creation could very well harken back to sumerian legends as could the story of genesis within the old testament of the bible, which from what I can gather some of the Qur'an is in line with.

I can't say I know enough about Islam or the Koran (or Qur'an), which is what I said. let alone the divisions between wahhabi beliefs and the adversity between Arabian teachings and those of Iran shi-ism or modern day Iraqi sunnism, both of which are at angst with the Wahhabism as spread by the sauds.

However the arab world were the percursors to european enlightenment in terms of mathematics as well as astronomy, ship building, navigation, etc. while europe still wallowed within the dark ages. I can't say how much that had to do with Islam, nor did I make any note to that effect.

[Russikan]

However the arab world were the percursors to european enlightenment in terms of mathematics as well as astronomy, ship building, navigation, etc. while europe still wallowed within the dark ages. I can't say how much that had to do with Islam, nor did I make any note to that effect.

It has to do with the openess of free inquiriy. Look for a civilization that is "ahead of it's time" chances are that it will be more open to dissent than others of it's time.

However politically the Baghdad Caliphate had to reduce dissent to maintain power. He did so my limiting free inquiriy. Islam in the main has not progressed much since then. However luckily enough every group has it's few who actually think freely. And though Islam's haven't been very vocal (death threats and all) they have been influential.

[Independent]

It does not appear to me as if anyone wanted to convert anyone. Thus, I don't know why conversion would be any topic in this thread.

[Independent]

I do not believe in miracles. I am too grounded in science. If anyone has witnessed a miracle firsthand I would love for them to express it here.

For me this is like believing in Ghosts, but I have not seen anything to convince me.
Or saying you say Aliens from outer space. Or Angels. Etc.


I often experience miracles, since good things happen to me even though I never dreamed that such could be possible.

Of course, I haven't won the lottery yet, but I do believe in miracles and that's why I play sometimes. From a scientific perspective, it's quite impossible to win the lottery, and yet some people win, witnessing a miracle.

[Independent]

I don't suppose to guess beyond what Arabgirl already stated. I merely mentioned that I didn't believe her motive was to convert. My comments were motivated by your immediate response to her post.

According to ArabGirl as she stated, she merely pointed out her belief that some verses within the koran outline miracles and bring forth descriptions that uphold observations that are scientifically sound.

Both assertions are subjects that can be debated, as I already noted. To suggest she not post in relation to the koran, which was your immediate suggestion, is what I responded to. You will forgive me, however, I found your immediate response somewhat out of line as well as irrelevant to the debate that Arab Girl introduced.

Even as a liberal than --- if she should stop posting her beliefs (merely on your say so) I would suggest Admin consider than that the christians should stop posting their beliefs in terms of the bible as well.

Perhaps we should only have the thoughts and beliefs of secularists and atheists presented on this forum then? It is a rhetorical question as I have no interest in continuing in personal terms. You are the one that insists upon defending your original reaction to Arab Girl's thread, to the degree that it prompted you to insinuate on personal terms.

Excellent argument from the poster of the month! :flowers:

[USViking]

I am not sure it matters whether or not there is a direct edict scripted within the the books of Judeo christianity, however it was from these books that so called heretics and pagans were compared and we indeed do know through out history just how heretics and pagans were treated. that treatment protected by the word of God.
The question is whether or not such behavior
is prescribed or sanctioned by the scriptures.
I do not believe it is, and even if it were, it has
not been put to practise in the West for centuries,
and is now unlawful there.




Just as we know how radical islam would address aethists. I assume they are considered non-believers. So I did answer your question.
No you did not- Christians and Jews, being
"People of the Book", have a higher status
than all other unbelievers, for example.

Muslim Apostates are liable to be killed if
they go public.

I wish to know what the Muslim scriptures
say about the treatment due atheists.

[Russikan]

it's quite impossible to win the lottery, and yet some people win, witnessing a miracle.

Actually it's a statistical certainty that someone will win the lottery.

[Michele]

I wish to know what the Muslim scriptures
say about the treatment due atheists.

then do some research. I myself don't know beyond my assumption that they fall under the category as non-believers and out of context it becomes clear what the qur'an has to say about non-believers with varying interpretations of how those scripts are to be interpreted today. If you wish to know beyond your overall presumptions... do some research.

[USViking]

then do some research. I myself don't know beyond my assumption that they fall under the category as non-believers and out of context it becomes clear what the qur'an has to say about non-believers with varying interpretations of how those scripts are to be interpreted today. If you wish to know beyond your overall presumptions... do some research.

I may do some of my own research, but I would
also like to hear what the letter and spirit of
the Muslim scriptures say from a Muslim.

[Michele]

I may do some of my own research, but I would
also like to hear what the letter and spirit of
the Muslim scriptures say from a Muslim.

well I understand that one would, however I have noticed you don't seem to believe what muslims have said of their own scripture before. Nor do you seem to account for the difference between radical Islamists and peaceable practioners of the religion, and how interpretion of script makes the difference as to how the religion is applied to everyday life.

This kind of an understanding you only seem to have for judeo christianity - go figure.

[Independent]

Actually it's a statistical certainty that someone will win the lottery.

Yes, that's true. But, it is still a miracle to win. :)

[USViking]

well I understand that one would, however I have noticed you don't seem to believe what muslims have said of their own scripture before.
Wrong again.

What I have questioned has been non-Muslims'
comments, and hearsay evidence.




Nor do you seem to account for the difference between radical Islamists and peaceable practioners of the religion, and how interpretion of script makes the difference as to how the religion is applied to everyday life.
How many Muslims have ever had an atheist
in their faces?

If there is a difference between radicals and others,
Arab Girl now has a chance to describe it.




This kind of an understanding you only seem to have for judeo christianity - go figure.
My understanding is that international terrorism
has not been spawned by Jews or Christians.

If Jews and Christians blow up the next hotel
in Bali I might have to rearrange their positions
in the standings.

[el nopal]

Is this the Hafiz you are referring to?

"The miracles of Khwaja Hafiz Paak (rahmatullahi alaihi) are too numerous to mention; but one at least shall be recanted here. Once Hafiz Paak (rahmatullahi alaihi) was passing a temple with some of his mureeds during a festival. Seeing what was transpiring, he entered and asked the people, "why is your idol not eating all the food you are offering it?" The people were dumbfounded, but their astonishment redoubled when the great wali commanded the idol to comply, and in front of all those present it suddenly animated and began to eat the food in front of it! It was this type of contact that our elders had with the Holy Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasallam) and Allah. With this intensely charged spirituality, they arose and spread Islam to the farthest corners of the earth, showing us all the deepest of divine miracles: which is that by love and selfless sacrifice - and not the sword - they won the hearts and minds of millions to the path of our beautiful religion."





seductive in what sense?
http://www.thesongsofhafiz.com/hafizpoetry.htm

Look under Gertrude Bell....
http://www.thesongsofhafiz.com/bell1.htm
Or...
http://www.thesongsofhafiz.com/ladinsky.htm
Or....

You could learn Persian and buy the book?

[Sauniere]

I often experience miracles, since good things happen to me even though I never dreamed that such could be possible.

Of course, I haven't won the lottery yet, but I do believe in miracles and that's why I play sometimes. From a scientific perspective, it's quite impossible to win the lottery, and yet some people win, witnessing a miracle.

Maybe I need a wider definition of miracle? The dictionary defines "miracle" as, "An extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs" (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G & C Merriam Company, Springfield, MA, 1980).

I can explain that any lottery bet has a "one chance in X" of winning, so when people win they have met the laws of chance. No matter how unlikely, it is not like Moses and the Israelites escaping from Egypt and the Red Sea parting and then collapsing on Pharaoh’s army.

However, I did meet someone remarkable once who could convince me of miracles.

[Michele]

Wrong again.

What I have questioned has been non-Muslims'
comments, and hearsay evidence.



wrong again, in the thread on the one sura. barciad placed comments from his muslim friend which you rejected and I placed two sources of alternative interpretations which you rejected. It becoming apparent that you seem to believe every practicing muslim in the world beats his wife. Yet you don't even have any statistics on the crime from any part of the world, and I know statistics of the crime in your own country don't concern you in the least.

Indeed you can comb the web and find various interpretations on some of the most contravercial hadiths that are not genearlly taken out of context, but you'd rather continue on with your own personal crusade.

And perhaps Arab Girl will eventually answer your questions. Of course you have made your cultural supremacy already so clear that engaging in dialogue with you on this topic is like banging one's head against the wall as no matter what anyone has said to you on topics having to do with terrorism or terrorists let alone Muslims and the Islamic religion you have made it as clear that you think you know it all about a religion and a people that it is actually obvious that you know little of.


How many Muslims have ever had an atheist
in their faces?


I really don't know. but as radical and political islam (in the ME specifically) rose in opposition to colonialism, as ME regimes began suppressing the power of the imans; a more radical islam reared up first and foremost against kafir. those being muslims within these countries they felt were not true muslims.

And by Islamic doctrine in its most radical nature, kafirs could and can be killed. It isn't as if non muslims (i.e., christians or jews) were slaughtered post haste endlessly and in all instance. From a historic perspective we know all three, muslims, christians and jews lived quite amiably together within the ME for quite some time. The point being this jihad does not only revolved around religion and the whole of the ME do not work as one whole cell of jihadi/salafis either.

Again it isn't as if the whole of the arab world are practicing muslims either, let alone radical jihadi/salafis. Nor is Islam relegated solely to the Arab world. But hey you don't wish to make any distinction so conversing with you is like walking down a dead end street.

You are entitled to exude your special brand of cultural supremacy. I certainly won't be one to repress you.I am not the only one on the board that have noticed your phobias. Besides at times you are actually quite amusing.


If there is a difference between radicals and others,
Arab Girl now has a chance to describe it.

again, if you had any real desire to do your own research you wouldn't need arab girl to work this out you.


My understanding is that international terrorism
has not been spawned by Jews or Christians.

your understanding of international terrorism is quite simplistic as you continue to come at this topic solely from a religious perspective wherein you haven't the capacity to grasp that all muslims do not abide by international terrorism, nor do they participate in it.


If Jews and Christians blow up the next hotel
in Bali I might have to rearrange their positions
in the standings.

yes you might. You might have to get on a soap box wherein you would be in a position to point out that the terrorism enacted by radical judeo-christianity doesn't account for the interpretations and beliefs of all jews and all christians. which I am pretty are distinctions that you could be relied upon to make.

[Nuke the Oil]

Actually it's a statistical certainty that someone will win the lottery.

Actually it isn't! :p

Just very likely.

[Russikan]

Actually it isn't! :p

Just very likely.

That's why I said statistical. And note how I left the time open.

[Independent]

Maybe I need a wider definition of miracle? The dictionary defines "miracle" as, "An extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs" (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G & C Merriam Company, Springfield, MA, 1980).

I can explain that any lottery bet has a "one chance in X" of winning, so when people win they have met the laws of chance. No matter how unlikely, it is not like Moses and the Israelites escaping from Egypt and the Red Sea parting and then collapsing on Pharaoh’s army.

However, I did meet someone remarkable once who could convince me of miracles.

If one is lucky enough to defeat the odds, then a miracle did indeed happen. Most people play their entire lives, only to lose. The chance of winning is so slim, that if one wins, it is indeed a miracle! The chance of winning is so unlikely that it can easily be seen as being a divine intervention, given that it is extremely unlikely for most people to ever win the jackpot. Given that the chance of winning is so slim, winning is really no different from escaping from Egypt. G_d parting the sea for you is just like G_d giving you the winning lottery numbers, defeating the odds of one out of millions or billions. But, it does seem as if G_d is more likely to give me the winning combination than she is to part the sea for me.

[previous Guest]

That people beleive in miracles in the 21st Century is in its self a miracle.

Some evidence exists that the "parting of the sea" is explained by the sea levels dropping in the marsh-levels of the area before a tidalwave hit the region. Its fact that this happened around the time of the escape from Egypt.

One thing for the faith coummunity - they tell great stories!

[Russikan]

If one is lucky enough to defeat the odds, then a miracle did indeed happen. Most people play their entire lives, only to lose. The chance of winning is so slim, that if one wins, it is indeed a miracle! The chance of winning is so unlikely that it can easily be seen as being a divine intervention, given that it is extremely unlikely for most people to ever win the jackpot. Given that the chance of winning is so slim, winning is really no different from escaping from Egypt. G_d parting the sea for you is just like G_d giving you the winning lottery numbers, defeating the odds of one out of millions or billions. But, it does seem as if G_d is more likely to give me the winning combination than she is to part the sea for me.

And I keep trying to explain that someone will win. God does not have to intervene. He doesn't choose winners. Random chance chooses the winners. That is equivalent to me saying that if I role double sixs twice in a row, that God made it so. After all double sixes is unlikely, especially twice in a row.

[Independent]

That's how religion works. It explains to some the impossible and/or gives hope. Religion is always so flexible that it can be used in any situation as a justification for something. The jackpot is simply scientific evidence that some people do experience miracles and if we are lucky enough, we will too! :) I think of the jackpot as being a miracle since gives a few people something which seems impossible to achieve.

[Independent]

That people beleive in miracles in the 21st Century is in its self a miracle.

Some evidence exists that the "parting of the sea" is explained by the sea levels dropping in the marsh-levels of the area before a tidalwave hit the region. Its fact that this happened around the time of the escape from Egypt.

One thing for the faith coummunity - they tell great stories!

Yet, it would be a miracle, indeed, if the sea parted for us during an extreme time in need. I mean, often we ask the sea to part for us, but it refuses to listen!