Dear Arab Girl:

[towski]

What are Islam's beliefs about embryonic stem cell research?

Is that better?

Sincerely,

Towski

[nogoodname90]

muslims view are the same for christins im gussing i dont think they care

[towski]

muslims view are the same for christins im gussing i dont think they care


Lot's of Christians care. Lot's are very opposed to embryonic stem cell research. It's a big player in the evangelical/culture of life crowd. I was curious about what the Islamic community thought.

[ArabGirl]

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ool u made me laugh!
Dear Towski;
How have you been, hopefully great!
About your question the answer is as follows:

Following Islamic beliefs in the Quran, the use of embryos for research and therapeutic purposes is acceptable from fertilization through the 40th day of development. Most modern Muslims agree on a moment beyond the blastocyst stage that marks when a fetus becomes a human being. Because of the belief that personhood is a developmental process, the majority of Sunni and Shiite jurists support ethically regulated embryonic stem cell research.
Hopefully the answer was clear enough!...
yours
AG

[towski]

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ool u made me laugh!
Dear Towski;
How have you been, hopefully great!
About your question the answer is as follows:

Following Islamic beliefs in the Quran, the use of embryos for research and therapeutic purposes is acceptable from fertilization through the 40th day of development. Most modern Muslims agree on a moment beyond the blastocyst stage that marks when a fetus becomes a human being. Because of the belief that personhood is a developmental process, the majority of Sunni and Shiite jurists support ethically regulated embryonic stem cell research.
Hopefully the answer was clear enough!...
yours
AG

Dear AG,

Thanks for your response! Things are good here. The weather is getting colder. I had to wear a sweater today.

Anyway, thanks for answering my question, and it brings up another. If Islamic beliefs assign a specific date, what about abortion? Completely forbidden, acceptable prior to day 40, or what?

Have a nice day.

As-salaam alaikum,

Towski

[ArabGirl]

Dear Towski;
I was looking forward getting your reply, MAN it took soo long :D..
about abortion no its not allowed unless there it endangers the mother's life , or if there was some real reason about it.

Have a nice day!
Regards
AG

Dear AG,

Thanks for your response! Things are good here. The weather is getting colder. I had to wear a sweater today.

Anyway, thanks for answering my question, and it brings up another. If Islamic beliefs assign a specific date, what about abortion? Completely forbidden, acceptable prior to day 40, or what?

Have a nice day.

As-salaam alaikum,

Towski

[::Major_Baker::]

Dear Towski;
I was looking forward getting your reply, MAN it took soo long :D..
about abortion no its not allowed unless there it endangers the mother's life , or if there was some real reason about it.

Have a nice day!
Regards
AG
that's a foggy 'rule of law' for a religion to take.
What if the 'real reason' was that a woman didn't think she could properly care for the baby?

Too much room for interpretation, isn't it? what does Islam call a 'real reason'?

[ArabGirl]

as long as she is pregnant and there was no danger on her life, or on the baby's life... the abortion isn't allowed... coz in Islam we respect the human right to live even if this human was an embrayo...


that's a foggy 'rule of law' for a religion to take.
What if the 'real reason' was that a woman didn't think she could properly care for the baby?

Too much room for interpretation, isn't it? what does Islam call a 'real reason'?

[::Major_Baker::]

as long as she is pregnant and there was no danger on her life, or on the baby's life... the abortion isn't allowed... coz in Islam we respect the human right to live even if this human was an embrayo...
Ok, so your defintiion should read:
Dear Towski;
I was looking forward getting your reply, MAN it took soo long ..
about abortion no its not allowed unless there it endangers the mother's life.

Instead of:
Dear Towski;
I was looking forward getting your reply, MAN it took soo long ..
about abortion no its not allowed unless there it endangers the mother's life , or if there was some real reason about it.

Thanks for the clarification!

[ArabGirl]

what do they call people like you in the US...mmmmmmmm lemme see
yeah
SMART A**

[towski]

what do they call people like you in the US...mmmmmmmm lemme see
yeah
SMART A**

I bet it sounds a lot prettier in Arabic.

[ArabGirl]

we have no a word for that in arabic :)
I bet it sounds a lot prettier in Arabic.

[Michele]

Dear All Posters in this Thread,

It is kind of cloudy where I am at the moment as well as unusually muggy. this thread is a hoot, particularly the formality with use of formal salutation. At the same time it is nice to see people communicating in an affable way. In any case I am pleased to hear stem cell research is allowed but remain a staunch advocate of free choice when it comes to abortion. When the world shows real concern and addresses the quality of the lives of living children (refugees and the disenfranchised including), then I will actually believe there is a sincere concern for the living and/or the lives of infants and children.

Until that time comes women must have and/or maintain their right to choose, and abortion must remain one of the viable legal choices. In a world where there remains a significant number of uncared for infants I see no reason to force a girl or woman to come to term if she knows the infant will not be provided with even the barest of sustanence. Choice is also the expression of responsibility in a world where violence against women remains the special privilege of irresponsible males, irrespective of any of our laws, their enforcements and courts of justice.

Thank you for listening.

cent'ani,
Michele

[ArabGirl]

You are talking about the world, and im talking about the Islamic world... for sure abortion happens all over the world even in the Islamic world... but if u Questioned its being allowed or not allowed in Islam, not its not! in addition to the fact the Islam imposed rules and regualtions to gurantee a life that is a quality life for kids and grown ups... but as a result of globaliztion this is not the current status! even though its not formally allowed lots of people do it....
but if you thought about it, in a muslim community its reaaaally rare that a woman get a kid outside a marriage ... bcause its not allowed in Islam..therefore god made the first step tp guarantee a stable life for a kid...
In west its totally diff story ... coz u guys have no sexual regulations, so u must have to have unwanted kids!

Dear All Posters in this Thread,

When the world shows real concern and addresses the quality of the lives of living children (refugees and the disenfranchised including), then I will actually believe there is a sincere concern for the living and/or the lives of infants and children.

Michele

[Michele]

You are talking about the world, and im talking about the Islamic world... for sure abortion happens all over the world even in the Islamic world... but if u Questioned its being allowed or not allowed in Islam, not its not! in addition to the fact the Islam imposed rules and regualtions to gurantee a life that is a quality life for kids and grown ups... but as a result of globaliztion this is not the current status! even though its not formally allowed lots of people do it....
but if you thought about it, in a muslim community its reaaaally rare that a woman get a kid outside a marriage ... bcause its not allowed in Islam..therefore god made the first step tp guarantee a stable life for a kid...
In west its totally diff story ... coz u guys have no sexual regulations, so u must have to have unwanted kids!

yes I was. I was talking about children in all of the world including the muslim world and in America. In america there are far too many children already unattended, for it to be realistic to argue that additional children would be better attended.

In america abortion is legal, as it is in many parts of the whole of the world. It has not infringed upon any religion that remains against it, nor has it lessened the amount of children that are born into situations where they remain orphaned and/or illy cared for.

Those who are anti-abortion in America tend to argue they have a higher concern for life whilst it is clear the lives of cultures they have no concern for can and do hang in the balance, and/or those children that are alive are being abused physically and sexually at an alarming rate.

The point being that some of the very same people that argue for the protection of a developing life show little or no concern for the protection and care of a young life already born, particularly those lives of some of our more disenfranchised culturs.

American economics is not in the business of extending care to the less fortunate in our own society, we have been in the process of cutting it. This trend runs counter to the pro life argument that claims (as if in some fantasy land) that it will find homes and quality care for those fetuses they wish to have come to term, as they move toward making abortion illegal. Their argument is unrealistic and basis itself on ignoring the many prejudices that have enabled some of the povertity and depravity that helps to encourage violence rather than alleviate it. This runs across class and cutural lines.

My intention is not to impose abortion as a choice in parts of the world where it remains illegal and/or where sexual and physical abuse run rampant. However:

1. it is my intention to argue that where it is legal it must remain legal, and
2. it is also my intention to suggest that in societies that can not control violence against girls and woman and children enacted as a privilege by the males within that society --- abortion could be considered.

The freedom of a womens' right to choose encompasses concern for the life of the mother and the child. It serves no real purpose to force a pregnancy on a girl in a world that is incapable of caring for the many mouths it is already incapable of feeding.

In a world (which includes the developing and the developed and considers the arrogance of the so called much more civilized and industrialized world) that has shown its inability to significantly decrease violence against both women and children, a woman's reproductive rights must not be encumbered by unrealistic arguments that feign concern for a life developing whilst demonizing lives already formed.

refugees and starvation in the world existed well before globalization, btw.

[Russikan]

Dear Michele

I agree on the mock formality and the caring for children.

Crazy Wild Sex That Always Happens in the West,
Russikan

Dear Arab Girl

Are we a bit culturally superior? I don't care about a "loving family" I care about food.

None of that Crazy Sex, Cause you are all Proper,
Russikan

PS please take offense at this like you do everything else I say.

[Michele]

Dear Michele

I agree on the mock formality and the caring for children.

Crazy Wild Sex That Always Happens in the West,
Russikan



dear russikan,

perhaps I am not understanding you correctly, but considering hedonism is as old as the nile. I can't say crazy wild sex is exclusive to western society or globalization. Can you?

sexually free but cautious,
Michele.

[Russikan]

dear russikan,

perhaps I am not understanding you correctly, but considering hedonism is as old as the nile. I can't say crazy wild sex is exclusive to western society or globalization. Can you?

sexually free but cautious,
Michele.

Dear Michele

That was my point. Conveyed through sarcasm.

Really Just Messing With ArabGirl,
Russikan

[nogoodname90]

Dear Michele

Are we a bit culturally superior? I don't care about a "loving family" I care about food.
im confused T_T??
I think wild sex is only in the west and some of euroupe. and Russkian do u not care about a loving family and only food??? you must have had a hard childhood let me look down on u :D j/k

[Russikan]

im confused T_T??
I think wild sex is only in the west and some of euroupe. and Russkian do u not care about a loving family and only food??? you must have had a hard childhood let me look down on u :D j/k

Wild Sex has been around much longer than Western Culture, whores existed in all ancient cultures.

As for the rest, I didn't exactly have much of a loving family, sometimes I didn't have food either. I missed the latter more. It is a response to Arabgirl saying that in Muslim countries they have loving family as opposed to the west. I'm saying that I care more about food for the children then loving familys.

[Craig]

Arabgirl, I'm still waiting for a response in the other thread about the expanding universe. I've asked a question which is one where you're probably the only qualified person on Whistlestopper to answer it, so...

[Alvin T. Grey]

You are talking about the world, and im talking about the Islamic world... for sure abortion happens all over the world even in the Islamic world... but if u Questioned its being allowed or not allowed in Islam, not its not! in addition to the fact the Islam imposed rules and regualtions to gurantee a life that is a quality life for kids and grown ups... but as a result of globaliztion this is not the current status! even though its not formally allowed lots of people do it....
but if you thought about it, in a muslim community its reaaaally rare that a woman get a kid outside a marriage ... bcause its not allowed in Islam..therefore god made the first step tp guarantee a stable life for a kid...
In west its totally diff story ... coz u guys have no sexual regulations, so u must have to have unwanted kids!

Dear Arab Girl.

Not all Christian religions sanction abortion. Mine (Roman Catholic) abhors it. It is illegal in my country to perform an abortion for any reason. However that does not stop people from traveling to other countries in the EU to have this done.
Only recently were we allowed to provide counciling and information to women before and after the proceedure. It was something that was sadly lacking for many years, and caused all kinds of problems afterwards.

Yours sincearly.
Alvin

[Loki]

I bet it sounds a lot prettier in Arabic.

Geeze towski. ;)

[Loki]

yes I was. I was talking about children in all of the world including the muslim world and in America. In america there are far too many children already unattended, for it to be realistic to argue that additional children would be better attended.

What do you mean by unattended?


In america abortion is legal, as it is in many parts of the whole of the world. It has not infringed upon any religion that remains against it, nor has it lessened the amount of children that are born into situations where they remain orphaned and/or illy cared for.


Those who are anti-abortion in America tend to argue they have a higher concern for life whilst it is clear the lives of cultures they have no concern for can and do hang in the balance, and/or those children that are alive are being abused physically and sexually at an alarming rate.

The point being that some of the very same people that argue for the protection of a developing life show little or no concern for the protection and care of a young life already born, particularly those lives of some of our more disenfranchised culturs.

American economics is not in the business of extending care to the less fortunate in our own society, we have been in the process of cutting it. This trend runs counter to the pro life argument that claims (as if in some fantasy land) that it will find homes and quality care for those fetuses they wish to have come to term, as they move toward making abortion illegal. Their argument is unrealistic and basis itself on ignoring the many prejudices that have enabled some of the povertity and depravity that helps to encourage violence rather than alleviate it. This runs across class and cutural lines.

My intention is not to impose abortion as a choice in parts of the world where it remains illegal and/or where sexual and physical abuse run rampant. However:

1. it is my intention to argue that where it is legal it must remain legal, and
2. it is also my intention to suggest that in societies that can not control violence against girls and woman and children enacted as a privilege by the males within that society --- abortion could be considered.

The freedom of a womens' right to choose encompasses concern for the life of the mother and the child. It serves no real purpose to force a pregnancy on a girl in a world that is incapable of caring for the many mouths it is already incapable of feeding.

In a world (which includes the developing and the developed and considers the arrogance of the so called much more civilized and industrialized world) that has shown its inability to significantly decrease violence against both women and children, a woman's reproductive rights must not be encumbered by unrealistic arguments that feign concern for a life developing whilst demonizing lives already formed.

refugees and starvation in the world existed well before globalization, btw.[/QUOTE]

[Tisatashar]

that's a foggy 'rule of law' for a religion to take.
What if the 'real reason' was that a woman didn't think she could properly care for the baby?

Too much room for interpretation, isn't it? what does Islam call a 'real reason'?

A real reason is the mother's life is in danger.

As for...

What if the 'real reason' was that a woman didn't think she could properly care for the baby?

Allah's Law is quite clear. And for one who believes in Allah (God the Father to the xians) the issue is easy.

O Muhammad, say: "Come, I will recite what your Rabb has forbidden to you: not to commit shirk with Him, to be kind to your parents, not to kill your children making the excuse of inability to support them - We provide sustenance for you and for them - not to commit shameful deeds whether open or secret, not to kill any soul forbidden by Allah except for the requirements of justice. These are the things which He enjoined you so that you may learn wisdom. 6:151

That's straight forward. Just like one's heart should be.

The Law is the same in the bible...

Matthew 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

Matthew 6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

Matthew 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?

Matthew 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

Matthew 6:32 For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matthew 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof.

And again from Allah Most Gracious Most Merciful...

You shall not kill your children for fear of want, for it is We Who provide sustenance for them as well as for you; surely killing them is a great blunder. 17:31

[::Major_Baker::]

thanks for explaining what arabgirl could not.

[nogoodname90]

i havent seen arabgirl on in a while im wondering what happened >.<.

[ScummyD]

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ool u made me laugh!
Dear Towski;
How have you been, hopefully great!
About your question the answer is as follows:

Following Islamic beliefs in the Quran, the use of embryos for research and therapeutic purposes is acceptable from fertilization through the 40th day of development. Most modern Muslims agree on a moment beyond the blastocyst stage that marks when a fetus becomes a human being. Because of the belief that personhood is a developmental process, the majority of Sunni and Shiite jurists support ethically regulated embryonic stem cell research.
Hopefully the answer was clear enough!...
yours
AG
The above text highlighted in blue was lifted from the following website without attribution. :rolleyes:

Catholicism:
The Roman Catholic Church provides one of the strongest positions in opposition to the use of embryos for research purposes. Catholic belief holds that life is sacred from the moment of fertilization and that the embryo is the inception of life, no matter where it exists. The church maintains that every embryo should be given the opportunity to develop into a mature human being.

Protestantism:
Protestantism ranges from one extreme to the other on the issue of embryonic stem cell research. Several denominations, such as the Southern Baptist Convention, hold that the embryo is the tiniest form of human life and should not be destroyed, while others, including the American Presbyterian Church, maintain that the research is acceptable if the goals cannot be reached in any other manner. The majority of Protestants in favor of stem cell research also hold that research must be limited to on embryos that cannot be used for reproductive purposes, within a 15-day window from fertilization.

Judaism:
Jewish biblical and talmudic law holds that human status is acquired progressively, not at fertilization. Jewish traditions do not give moral, human status to embryos until they have reached 40 days of gestation. The fetus only achieves full human status at birth. Following these views, Judaism supports ethically justifiable research using embryos for research and therapeutic purposes.

Islam:
Following Islamic beliefs in the Quran, the use of embryos for research and therapeutic purposes is acceptable from fertilization through the 40th day of development. Most modern Muslims agree on a moment beyond the blastocyst stage that marks when a fetus becomes a human being. Because of the belief that personhood is a developmental process, the majority of Sunni and Shiite jurists support ethically regulated embryonic stem cell research.

Hinduism/Buddhism:
In traditional Hindu belief, conception is the beginning of a soul’s rebirth from a previous life. Some Hindu traditions place the beginning of personhood between three and five months of gestation, while few believe that incarnation can occur as late as the seventh month. Most Buddhists have adopted the classical Hindu teaching that personhood begins at conception.
— Jennifer Cousins


http://www.stnews.org/News-332.htm

[rjamortega]

You are talking about the world, and im talking about the Islamic world... for sure abortion happens all over the world even in the Islamic world... but if u Questioned its being allowed or not allowed in Islam, not its not! in addition to the fact the Islam imposed rules and regualtions to gurantee a life that is a quality life for kids and grown ups... but as a result of globaliztion this is not the current status! even though its not formally allowed lots of people do it....
but if you thought about it, in a muslim community its reaaaally rare that a woman get a kid outside a marriage ... bcause its not allowed in Islam..therefore god made the first step tp guarantee a stable life for a kid...
In west its totally diff story ... coz u guys have no sexual regulations, so u must have to have unwanted kids!
I wish I'd gotten on this back in October. But any way, I find it interesting how the reply of post #15 to ArabGirl's post #14 ignored the mention of the restricted social practices driven by islamic scripture. Modern western culture generaly shuns the wisdom found in the traditional monotheistic religions. And there is definately wisdom to be found in judeo/christian and islamic law that has the affect of limiting unwanted birth by restricting the "wild crazy sex" so desired and accepted by many societies the world over.

It is also interesting how the modern secular world does not see any nobility or purpose in "preaching" a secular version of the traditional religious sexual abstinance to its citizens. In my mind teaching the virtues of abstinance to a community shows a desire for that community to reach a higher good, instead of what we now see which is a cultural acceptance that man cannot rise above his lower base nature. In other words - "They're going to do it anyway".

Now this is not to say that as individuals we do not strive to practice sexual control on a personal level. But as a society interested in the other guy we immediately throw out such high ideals. And the end result?...masses of unwanted pregnancy and abortion.

Why does the secular world turn its back on such wisdom?

[Russikan]

It is also interesting how the modern secular world does not see any nobility or purpose in "preaching" a secular version of the traditional religious sexual abstinance to its citizens. In my mind teaching the virtues of abstinance to a community shows a desire for that community to reach a higher good, instead of what we now see which is a cultural acceptance that man cannot rise above his lower base nature. In other words - "They're going to do it anyway".

The "Modern Secular World" requires some kind of reason why it should be limited. Lacking that, we don't like to make things up.

And in addition it is partly that we don't so much not see the nobility of a secular version, as much as that we can't see the nobility of something that doesn't exist.

[rjamortega]

The "Modern Secular World" requires some kind of reason why it should be limited. Lacking that, we don't like to make things up.

And in addition it is partly that we don't so much not see the nobility of a secular version, as much as that we can't see the nobility of something that doesn't exist.
Well, we only have to look at what ArabGirl presented in her statment that unwanted pregnancy and abortion are nil in muslim states. I guess first of all you would have to see the disadvantage and misery caused by unwanted pregnancy and abortion on as large a scale as our culture experiences. I think you would have to understand that it is a higher moral and ethical ideal to take responsibility for your sexuality and offspring rather than leaving the woman you impregnate, or kill the life you create. Choosing the former over the latter just seems more like doing the right thing to me. But you don't agree?

Because I believe this I have to say the modern secular world does not really ask for a very high standard from its community. As I said, we as individuals may limit our behaviour. And we may take responsibility for our offspring. But the rules we set for society have a very different outcome for a very large percentage of our society. It would be nice if we could at least acknowledge the failure of our best laid plans.

[Russikan]

Well, we only have to look at what ArabGirl presented in her statment that unwanted pregnancy and abortion are nil in muslim states. I guess first of all you would have to see the disadvantage and misery caused by unwanted pregnancy and abortion on as large a scale as our culture experiences. I think you would have to understand that it is a higher moral and ethical ideal to take responsibility for your sexuality and offspring rather than leaving the woman you impregnate, or kill the life you create. Choosing the former over the latter just seems more like doing the right thing to me. But you don't agree?

Because I believe this I have to say the modern secular world does not really ask for a very high standard from its community. As I said, we as individuals may limit our behaviour. And we may take responsibility for our offspring. But the rules we set for society have a very different outcome for a very large percentage of our society. It would be nice if we could at least acknowledge the failure of our best laid plans.

Our society is based around individualism. We don't like to dictate group behaviour. Ultimately pregnancy and such must not cause so many problems on a societal level since America is so much better off then those Muslim countries.

(Note the fallacy where I assume that that is the only reason that we are better off. How does it feel when turned around? I'm going to ignore my own fallacy, especially when it's pointed out. Because, if you can't beat them...)

[rjamortega]

Our society is based around individualism. We don't like to dictate group behaviour. Ultimately pregnancy and such must not cause so many problems on a societal level since America is so much better off then those Muslim countries.

(Note the fallacy where I assume that that is the only reason that we are better off. How does it feel when turned around? I'm going to ignore my own fallacy, especially when it's pointed out. Because, if you can't beat them...)
I guess then that is our tradeoff. I normally look at life as a matter of tradeoffs and balance. In this case we don't want to see one group forcing its will upon the people as we see it practiced in some primitive muslim nations. But I think we could do a little more tweeking in the current balance we practice here. Maybe a kind of "stigma light" coming from the secular leadership which would be an alternative variation to the kind of stigma that is typically found coming from the christian right. Something that uses rational intellect to professes the harm created by irresponsible sex and mass abortion. In other words, another tool besides welfare checks and state funded abortions to help combat STDs, poverty, crime and unwanted children.
NOTE: I'm not talking about passing laws, but rather a society that tries to instill higher personal values. But this requires the intelligencia to admit flaws so I doubt this can ever be an option.

So, we should accept the current level of disease, poverty, crime and disfunctional families as a fare tradeoff for unfettered "individualism".

[nonsqtr]

Hey ArabGirl - what's up with the so-called "conservative Islamic feminist" movement?

The news over here has been painting this as a significant political force.

Is it really? In your part of the world?

[ScummyD]

I don't why people keep asking this ArabGirl all these sorts of questions as if she is some sort of expert when she has proven numerous times to be less than well versed on these subjects.

Numerous times when asked specific questions such as the above she has simply cut and pasted the words of others as her answer, which provides the person asking the question with nothing they could not locate on their own in a split second with a search engine.

[towski]

I don't why people keep asking this ArabGirl all these sorts of questions as if she is some sort of expert when she has proven numerous times to be less than well versed on these subjects.

Numerous times when asked specific questions such as the above she has simply cut and pasted the words of others as her answer, which provides the person asking the question with nothing they could not locate on their own in a split second with a search engine.

Well, as the original starter of this thread, I'll be happy to share.

Arabgirl had posted another of her proselytizing rants about Islam, and I asked a related, by off-topic question. She got bent out of shape, and accused me of derailing her thread. So I started a new thread, and, treading carefully, asked her the question again. (you'll note the underlying sarcasm.) It just sort of went from there.

Asked and answered.

Towski is Audi 5000, G.

[ScummyD]

Well, as the original starter of this thread, I'll be happy to share.

Arabgirl had posted another of her proselytizing rants about Islam, and I asked a related, by off-topic question. She got bent out of shape, and accused me of derailing her thread. So I started a new thread, and, treading carefully, asked her the question again. (you'll note the underlying sarcasm.) It just sort of went from there.

Asked and answered.

Towski is Audi 5000, G.
I see. Thanks for the context. ;)

[rjamortega]

Well, as the original starter of this thread, I'll be happy to share.

Arabgirl had posted another of her proselytizing rants about Islam, and I asked a related, by off-topic question. She got bent out of shape, and accused me of derailing her thread. So I started a new thread, and, treading carefully, asked her the question again. (you'll note the underlying sarcasm.) It just sort of went from there.

Asked and answered.

Towski is Audi 5000, G.
And then I took off on some other totally unrelated subject, further derailing the thread. Cool, eh?!!? :D

ps, towski,
You never came back to me on my 'Generalization' thread after accusing me of being in a frenzy. (and I thought I was so cool and calm in that one)

I'm mad at you big fella. :p

[Russikan]

So, we should accept the current level of disease, poverty, crime and disfunctional families as a fare tradeoff for unfettered "individualism".

Or we could develop advancements in technology, and methodology that reduce those things.

I guess then that is our tradeoff. I normally look at life as a matter of tradeoffs and balance. In this case we don't want to see one group forcing its will upon the people as we see it practiced in some primitive muslim nations. But I think we could do a little more tweeking in the current balance we practice here. Maybe a kind of "stigma light" coming from the secular leadership which would be an alternative variation to the kind of stigma that is typically found coming from the christian right. Something that uses rational intellect to professes the harm created by irresponsible sex and mass abortion. In other words, another tool besides welfare checks and state funded abortions to help combat STDs, poverty, crime and unwanted children.
NOTE: I'm not talking about passing laws, but rather a society that tries to instill higher personal values. But this requires the intelligencia to admit flaws so I doubt this can ever be an option.

The problem is that as I see there are generally speaking three groups.

Crazy religious people, who have a very clear and understandable basis for their thought process. And clear leaders.

All those sane people in the middle, certainly we don't intend to ban sex before marriage, but we don't much like the current state of affairs. Why don't we change it? Lack of leadership. Can you think of a famous out spoken moderate (I'm not talking politically but socially, no one is famous for saying that we should limit sex a little but not be overzealous).

People who seem to exist for the sole purpose of disagreeing with the first group. I'm sure they have reasons for what they do but I don't understand their extreme positions. Strong leadership. Useful for counteracting the first group.

So the problem with having a "secular leadership" provide light stigma is that the only group open to light anything lack the leadership and media attention to do much of anything.