The eternity of eternity

[Scaryclouds]

I have for awhile now had a hard time putting my head around this. In christianity we are taught that when we die we will go to heaven if you have been good and hell if you are bad (theres much more to it than this but I am not really looking for a discussion over these qualifiers) But I just find this immense because eternity is without end and I just wonder what would it be like? Even with our own short lives we get bored but imagine billions trillions quadrillions of years endless for all time what would that be like? What would a "person" do? I mean even if heaven is "perfect" a human would I believe eventually grow bored. Unless when one dies their soul is some how changed. But anyways what does everybody else think on this?

P.S.

I don't mean to be rude but if you only want to post that "heaven" does not exist please don't bother I merely wish to discuss this from philsophical, religious, humanist stand points and not debate the existance or lack there of, of heaven.

[Void Image]

While I'm not the religious type, and I don't believe in a heaven, I've thought about this many times. In my opinion, boredom..happiness..any of the emotions really, are nothing more than chemical reactions and electrical impulses percieved by the brain. If there is an eternal existance outside the body, I don't think it would 'feel' like anything we have experienced before, if it 'felt' like anything. What is eternity, anyway? Time is, in my opinion, another production of the brain. If you are nothing but a free-floating, unfeeling(or with the case of heaven, blissful) conciousness that exists in a world where nothing matters any longer, what sense of time would you have? Not like you'd have a bus to catch or an alarm clock to set.

[heel31ok]

I believe the idea of heaven alone is a misunderstanding of what the Bible says.The Bible says we will rule with Christ in eternity. We will work and exist in the original state that Adam and Eve were brought into. I call it perfect reality where every thing is clear and we are at peace and know who we are and what we are and what we are supposed to do. The most important thing will be that we will re-establish our relationship with God in a personal way where we can walk with Him . I do not go for all this floating on a cloud non-sense . The Bible says " of the increase of His kingdom there will be no end." I do not know what that says to you but to me that says his kingdom will be perpetuated and ever growing.

i know many may say it is arrogant to claim we are the only ones in the universe but I believe this is just the beginning of a universal Kingdom , not the end. The fall of man has to be dealt with before we move on to more things God has in store. Sin has to be dealt with.

In my mind the fall of man is like a time line going out and when sin came that time line started downward . When God resolves the sin issue once and for all that time line will continue forward at the point it started downward. All the evil contained in that downward spiral will be lost and swallowed up by the continuation of the true time line. Like a ripple in the sea of eternity. The tragic part is all those who are left in that downward line.

[JoeR]

When God resolves the sin issue once and for all

What's taking him so long?

[eugene40]

What's taking him so long?



Xbox,,, :D

[mataj]

I brought this issue to a catholic friend of mine, like

"You say life is some sort of preparation to heaven, a training. Those not properly trained during their lifetime, can finish their training in purgatory. The purpose of this training is to become a good catholic. Heaven is supposed to be a happy place for a good catholics. Now, the greatest joy of a good catholic is to love and praise his god. Therefore, heaven must be something like trillions of years long mass, during which good catholic souls praise their god forever. No, thanxx. You said before, that nobody keeps the unbelieving souls out of heavens; they choose to stay out on their own account. Well, that makes perfect sense to me now."

His response was something like "Ummm... yeah... well... you see, there's a bright splash of light, and your time stops in a moment of a perfect happiness"

[JoeR]

I never could figure out if there was even a biblical justification for purgatory.

[mataj]

I never could figure out if there was even a biblical justification for purgatory.There is none. So what. Catholic church contrived her own justification.

Besides, Bible can justify just about anything, including non believing. Suppose, that somebody is trying to convert you. You can reply something like

"Yea, I've studied the Bible, but I see no sense to go any further than this:
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)It's quite enough, as far as I'm concerned."

"No, no, no, no, you got it all wrong, let me explain you"

"Are you christian, a good christian?"

"Yes, of course"

"Well, then you can't explain Bible to me. Christ forbids you from giving any straight answers to the unbelievers like me:
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. (Mark 4:11-12)That means, that you may not help me much with interpretation of the Bible. I'm pretty much left to my own resources here."

" . . . "

So far, I've never met anyone capable of talking himself out of this one. Even if he tries, you can alway say: "OK, I appreciate your effort, but if your religion forbids you from explaining it to me in a straight manner, there's not much we can do about it, can we? I'm sure you wouldn't want to act contrary to Christ's instructions."

"You don't understand, this is not what Christ meant!"

"That's what it's written in there. Maybe I do understand it correctly, maybe I don't. It's a pity, that you may not explain it to me understandibly."

"But I may explain it to you!"

"Yea, you may explain, but not so, that I could understand it."

[mugawump]

[QUOTE=Scaryclouds]I have for awhile now had a hard time putting my head around this. In christianity we are taught that when we die we will go to heaven if you have been good and hell if you are bad (theres much more to it than this but I am not really looking for a discussion over these qualifiers) But I just find this immense because eternity is without end and I just wonder what would it be like? Even with our own short lives we get bored but imagine billions trillions quadrillions of years endless for all time what would that be like? What would a "person" do? I mean even if heaven is "perfect" a human would I believe eventually grow bored. Unless when one dies their soul is some how changed. But anyways what does everybody else think on this?


QUOTE] The following was composed in response to another post, But I beleive it will answer your questions




I am "christian" and beleive basically in what Jesus reportedly taught, but I am NOT "A" Christian. (I do not beleive He was anymore a god-person that you or I My beleifs started when I was thirteen, first year of Highschool, and a visiting lecturer came before us to explain, amongst other things, that is it wasn't for a mysterious electrical or magnetic force, we could put one hand right thru the other, as there is much relative space between the particals which makes up our physical flesh, that therefore two beings could theoretically exist in the same space. This got me to thinking about Heaven, which in turn, Led to thinking of Hell (See, I haven't forgotten the subject of this thread)

Thus, I beleive that heaven exists in our own minds, and that when we pass, our mentality (or spark of life, or Soul) passes into the ether to bcome a part of a Collective mentality. (Perhaps the origin of Ghosts???) I have had their existence proven to me.

Now. I have read the Bible exstensively and beleive it is a very good reference book (and logical, and reasonable in many cases) in spite of it being written largely in parables. I will use one Passage in relation to this issue. Christ reportedly said "Be like unto a child to enter into the kingdom of God." I beleive that a person's mentality can enter into it's own description of heaven upon death, One person may want Mountains, and oceans, and Honey and spice, while another may want a hundred dancing girls (or boys) Since it is an individual imagination, each one would be different, and litterally fulfill that person's idea of Heaven. The is where the Childs ideas become prevelant. HOWEVER:::

If that child is full of guilt because of his or her actions, he or she would not be as suseptable to the transition from life to death. The mind, or intelligrence may not be able to accept the heavenly concept, thus could not make the transition to heaven. That person (or the persons mentality) would end up in a purgatory of his or her own design Further, as the proximate result of a state of mind wherein they were guilt-ridden. The person would be in their own private Hell on earth. Which to me is the only Hell which exists. .

[heel31ok]

There is none. So what. Catholic church contrived her own justification.

Besides, Bible can justify just about anything, including non believing. Suppose, that somebody is trying to convert you. You can reply something like

"Yea, I've studied the Bible, but I see no sense to go any further than this:
It's quite enough, as far as I'm concerned."

"No, no, no, no, you got it all wrong, let me explain you"

"Are you christian, a good christian?"

"Yes, of course"

"Well, then you can't explain Bible to me. Christ forbids you from giving any straight answers to the unbelievers like me:
That means, that you may not help me much with interpretation of the Bible. I'm pretty much left to my own resources here."

" . . . "

So far, I've never met anyone capable of talking himself out of this one. Even if he tries, you can alway say: "OK, I appreciate your effort, but if your religion forbids you from explaining it to me in a straight manner, there's not much we can do about it, can we? I'm sure you wouldn't want to act contrary to Christ's instructions."

"You don't understand, this is not what Christ meant!"

"That's what it's written in there. Maybe I do understand it correctly, maybe I don't. It's a pity, that you may not explain it to me understandibly."

"But I may explain it to you!"

"Yea, you may explain, but not so, that I could understand it."
I do not see Christ forbidding anything here!

[heel31ok]

[QUOTE=Scaryclouds]I have for awhile now had a hard time putting my head around this. In christianity we are taught that when we die we will go to heaven if you have been good and hell if you are bad (theres much more to it than this but I am not really looking for a discussion over these qualifiers) But I just find this immense because eternity is without end and I just wonder what would it be like? Even with our own short lives we get bored but imagine billions trillions quadrillions of years endless for all time what would that be like? What would a "person" do? I mean even if heaven is "perfect" a human would I believe eventually grow bored. Unless when one dies their soul is some how changed. But anyways what does everybody else think on this?


QUOTE] The following was composed in response to another post, But I beleive it will answer your questions




I am "christian" and beleive basically in what Jesus reportedly taught, but I am NOT "A" Christian. (I do not beleive He was anymore a god-person that you or I My beleifs started when I was thirteen, first year of Highschool, and a visiting lecturer came before us to explain, amongst other things, that is it wasn't for a mysterious electrical or magnetic force, we could put one hand right thru the other, as there is much relative space between the particals which makes up our physical flesh, that therefore two beings could theoretically exist in the same space. This got me to thinking about Heaven, which in turn, Led to thinking of Hell (See, I haven't forgotten the subject of this thread)

Thus, I beleive that heaven exists in our own minds, and that when we pass, our mentality (or spark of life, or Soul) passes into the ether to bcome a part of a Collective mentality. (Perhaps the origin of Ghosts???) I have had their existence proven to me.

Now. I have read the Bible exstensively and beleive it is a very good reference book (and logical, and reasonable in many cases) in spite of it being written largely in parables. I will use one Passage in relation to this issue. Christ reportedly said "Be like unto a child to enter into the kingdom of God." I beleive that a person's mentality can enter into it's own description of heaven upon death, One person may want Mountains, and oceans, and Honey and spice, while another may want a hundred dancing girls (or boys) Since it is an individual imagination, each one would be different, and litterally fulfill that person's idea of Heaven. The is where the Childs ideas become prevelant. HOWEVER:::

If that child is full of guilt because of his or her actions, he or she would not be as suseptable to the transition from life to death. The mind, or intelligrence may not be able to accept the heavenly concept, thus could not make the transition to heaven. That person (or the persons mentality) would end up in a purgatory of his or her own design Further, as the proximate result of a state of mind wherein they were guilt-ridden. The person would be in their own private Hell on earth. Which to me is the only Hell which exists. .
Largely in parables? Only where it says so.

[mataj]

I do not see Christ forbidding anything here!Christ, your lord, is forbidding you, a Christian, to give any straight answers about Christianity to me, a non-Christian. He says, that you should explain theese things to me in parbles & puzzles only.

[Scaryclouds]

Christ, your lord, is forbidding you, a Christian, to give any straight answers about Christianity to me, a non-Christian. He says, that you should explain theese things to me in parbles & puzzles only.


No what is meant in that piece there is that a person who chooses not believe (opposed to a person who is apatheic towards religion) will not understand because their logic would prevent them from understanding. Much like many of the avid and strong non-believers in this forum they don't understand certain subtelties of heaven and why people go there because they don't believe in the fundamental laws and powers of god. I guess an partial analogy might be explaining magnetism to a highly superstisus uneducated person from ancient times (Please understand I am not refering to people who don't believe in Christianity as uneducated or stupid). You can see the difficulty of explaining a basic law to such a person right?

[mataj]

No what is meant in that piece there is . . . What is meant in that piece there (as well as any other piece for that matter) can not be explained to me by Christians in comprehensible manner.

[heel31ok]

Christ, your lord, is forbidding you, a Christian, to give any straight answers about Christianity to me, a non-Christian. He says, that you should explain theese things to me in parbles & puzzles only.
nope , still not seeing it! It looks more like you are forbidding it.Tell me a again maybe I am missing something.

[heel31ok]

What is meant in that piece there (as well as any other piece for that matter) can not be explained to me by Christians in comprehensible manner.
LOL LOL LOL LOL!

[Scaryclouds]

What is meant in that piece there (as well as any other piece for that matter) can not be explained to me by Christians in comprehensible manner.

Ok Mataj why do you not believe in Christianity? Please answer truthfully it will probaly end up answering your question.

[Russikan]

Ok Mataj why do you not believe in Christianity? Please answer truthfully it will probaly end up answering your question.

No one doubts that Christianity exists. If you want him to believe the precepts of it then you should probably display some evidence.

[Scaryclouds]

No one doubts that Christianity exists. If you want him to believe the precepts of it then you should probably display some evidence.

While I would want him to become a believer in Christianity that is not the objective of my post. The objective is to show him any person can understand the precepts of christianity its just a matter of allowing yourself to accept them. Also I never implied that he dosn't believe Christanity exists, but that it is false.

[mataj]

nope , still not seeing it! It looks more like you are forbidding it.Tell me a again maybe I am missing something.Christ said loud and clear, that mysteries of the kingdom of God must be given to me in parables, so that seeing I may see, and not perceive; and hearing I may hear, and not understand; lest at any time I should be converted, and my sins should be forgiven to me.

So, the only way to the Biblical truth for me is to study the Bible by myself, as much as I see fit, and interpret it in any way I bloody want to.

Ok Mataj why do you not believe in Christianity? Please answer truthfully it will probaly end up answering your question.I don't, I don't need to, and I don't need to have a reason for that either.

[heel31ok]

Christ said loud and clear, that mysteries of the kingdom of God must be given to me in parables, so that seeing I may see, and not perceive; and hearing I may hear, and not understand; lest at any time I should be converted, and my sins should be forgiven to me.

So, the only way to the Biblical truth for me is to study the Bible by myself, as much as I see fit, and interpret it in any way I bloody want to.

I don't, I don't need to, and I don't need to have a reason for that either.
well you do at least interpret any way you see fit.

[mataj]

well you do at least interpret any way you see fit.You bet!

[faithfulservant]

I have for awhile now had a hard time putting my head around this. In christianity we are taught that when we die we will go to heaven if you have been good and hell if you are bad (theres much more to it than this but I am not really looking for a discussion over these qualifiers) But I just find this immense because eternity is without end and I just wonder what would it be like? Even with our own short lives we get bored but imagine billions trillions quadrillions of years endless for all time what would that be like? What would a "person" do? I mean even if heaven is "perfect" a human would I believe eventually grow bored. Unless when one dies their soul is some how changed. But anyways what does everybody else think on this?

P.S.

I don't mean to be rude but if you only want to post that "heaven" does not exist please don't bother I merely wish to discuss this from philsophical, religious, humanist stand points and not debate the existance or lack there of, of heaven.

Hmmm.... The best analogy I know of for what Heaven and Eternity will be like and our current understanding is that of Disneyland and sex. Ask a 7 year-old what the funnest thing in the world is and they'll probably tell you something like Disneyland. Ask an adult what the funnest thing is and they'll probably tell you "sex". Is sex better than Disneyland? You bet!!! :D :D
We're like that 7 year-old kid, thinking that Heaven has got to be one big Disneyland, when in reality it's FAR better than that. We simply lack the perspective to understand what that FAR better could be. My guess is that what we will be doing in Heaven will be eternally challenging, satisfying, productive and enjoyable. What it will consist of escapes me, because like that 7 year-old, I lack the proper perspective. But, like that 7 year-old, I do have glimpses of what it could be.

[::Major_Baker::]

Hmmm.... The best analogy I know of for what Heaven and Eternity will be like and our current understanding is that of Disneyland and sex. Ask a 7 year-old what the funnest thing in the world is and they'll probably tell you something like Disneyland. Ask an adult what the funnest thing is and they'll probably tell you "sex". Is sex better than Disneyland? You bet!!! :D :D
We're like that 7 year-old kid, thinking that Heaven has got to be one big Disneyland, when in reality it's FAR better than that. We simply lack the perspective to understand what that FAR better could be. My guess is that what we will be doing in Heaven will be eternally challenging, satisfying, productive and enjoyable. What it will consist of escapes me, because like that 7 year-old, I lack the proper perspective. But, like that 7 year-old, I do have glimpses of what it could be.

Where is heaven?
Is heaven in the clouds? How does that work?

Can we communicate in heaven? Without vocal cords? If not how will we find our loved ones? Surely there are lots of 'people' there--easy to get lost.

We are supposed to be really happy in heaven, but since happiness is an emotion created by hormones and chemicals in our brains, how can a 'spirit' feel happiness?

Is hell underground? We've studied underground, and it consists of the mantle, the outer mantle, and the core. Why wasn't hell found?

servant, you say heaven is great. What makes it so great? Are there amenities? Surely disneyland, with all the stuff, is more fun.

what we will be doing in Heaven will be eternally challenging, satisfying, productive and enjoyable
All these powerful adjectives, yet you offer no reasons, examples, or even ideas of why heaven will be enjoyable. Challenging? Productive? explain.

And what do you mean by 'what we will be doing'? What's on the itinerary?

Answer FUNDAMENTAL, LOGICAL questions like this WITHOUT scripture.

It amazes me that so many people trust in so many unknowns, and so much ambiguous nonsense, just because they are SCARED of what will happen to their bodies when they die, even though science tells us that they can no longer think, feel, or understand ANYTHING.

[faithfulservant]

Where is heaven?
Is heaven in the clouds? How does that work?

Can we communicate in heaven? Without vocal cords? If not how will we find our loved ones? Surely there are lots of 'people' there--easy to get lost.

We are supposed to be really happy in heaven, but since happiness is an emotion created by hormones and chemicals in our brains, how can a 'spirit' feel happiness?

Is hell underground? We've studied underground, and it consists of the mantle, the outer mantle, and the core. Why wasn't hell found?

servant, you say heaven is great. What makes it so great? Are there amenities? Surely disneyland, with all the stuff, is more fun.



All these powerful adjectives, yet you offer no reasons, examples, or even ideas of why heaven will be enjoyable. Challenging? Productive? explain.

And what do you mean by 'what we will be doing'? What's on the itinerary?

Answer FUNDAMENTAL, LOGICAL questions like this WITHOUT scripture.

It amazes me that so many people trust in so many unknowns, and so much ambiguous nonsense, just because they are SCARED of what will happen to their bodies when they die, even though science tells us that they can no longer think, feel, or understand ANYTHING.

You didn't understand any of what I wrote, did you? We lack the perspective to understand Heaven. What you're asking is like asking a person who can only hear in a very narrow frequency range to describe the sound of an orchestra. The ability simply does not exist, because they lack the neccessary frame of reference.

Since Heaven is a Biblical concept, why would you demand that I answer your questions w/o using scriptural references?

Science knows NOTHING about what happens after death. Zero, zip, nada, zilch. All science knows about is what happens to the body, not the spirit. I have no fear about what will happen when I die, I have full confidence in my future.

[::Major_Baker::]

It's all written in the bible, isn't it?
After all, where did you learn about heaven (besides the fact that is was likely drilled into your head as a child when you were too young to think critically)?
use scripture to tell me about Heaven.
Answer my questions. You all want to 'GO' to heaven, where is it? Surely you must know.
Enough is known to base your entire life around it--don't you feel strange dedicating your whole life to end up somewhere that you are completely ignorant of?

[Void Image]

Personally I would find non-existance more enjoyable than an eternity of challenging myself and being productive. If heaven is so much like life, then what is the point of living at all? I constantly hear that life is here to prepare us..but prepare us for what? God created us, tossed us on a spherical rock in the middle of a limitless void, and surrounded us with death, disease, murder, evil, temptation..for what? So in the end, this guy goes to heaven, and this guy goes to hell? What is the point? Where is the logic in that? Why not just create us directly into heaven where we can be eternally happy without ever even being introduced to sins and things of that sort? Now the Christian will start talking about original sin..but it was GOD that ALLOWED this original sin to happen in the first place!?!? Like Major said..some people need to sit down and actually ask themselves why they blindly follow such illogical ideas. Nowadays people laugh at the concept of Zeus and Apollo..nonsense, wasn't it? Yet back in those days it was the dominant religion and everyone KNEW these gods existed. What is different about christianity??

[faithfulservant]

Personally I would find non-existance more enjoyable than an eternity of challenging myself and being productive. If heaven is so much like life, then what is the point of living at all? I constantly hear that life is here to prepare us..but prepare us for what? God created us, tossed us on a spherical rock in the middle of a limitless void, and surrounded us with death, disease, murder, evil, temptation..for what? So in the end, this guy goes to heaven, and this guy goes to hell? What is the point? Where is the logic in that? Why not just create us directly into heaven where we can be eternally happy without ever even being introduced to sins and things of that sort? Now the Christian will start talking about original sin..but it was GOD that ALLOWED this original sin to happen in the first place!?!? Like Major said..some people need to sit down and actually ask themselves why they blindly follow such illogical ideas. Nowadays people laugh at the concept of Zeus and Apollo..nonsense, wasn't it? Yet back in those days it was the dominant religion and everyone KNEW these gods existed. What is different about christianity??

Love. That's the answer your looking for. Love is why God put us here. Love is why there is a Heaven. Love is what sets Christianity apart from every other belief. Your biggest problem is that you don't understand the nature of Love. You think that Love is some fuzzy feeling that you get when you look at your husband/wife. It's not. It's a choice to serve from a desire to create as much joy in another person as possible (note that I wrote 'joy' and not 'happiness'). Without this willing choice, all your talking about is hormones or slavery. We were created and put on this Earth in that we might make the choice of who we would love. Without the 'trials and tribulations', we have no perspective from which to make this choice. Without being able to see the differences between the choices we have, we cannot truly say that we have chosen one over the other. And without a choice to make there is no Love, hence the availabilty of sin. It provides us with an alternative to choose from. Look at it this way, if you were in a room that had only one exit, could you truly be said to have chosen that one exit? God has provided two doors for us and done everything possible to get us to chose the right one, short of taking away our freedom of choice. Why? Because He chose to Love US.

[::Major_Baker::]

Love. That's the answer your looking for. Love is why God put us here. Love is why there is a Heaven. Love is what sets Christianity apart from every other belief.

Heterosexual love, that is.

Your biggest problem is that you don't understand the nature of Love. You think that Love is some fuzzy feeling that you get when you look at your husband/wife. It's not. It's a choice to serve from a desire to create as much joy in another person as possible (note that I wrote 'joy' and not 'happiness').
If that person is of the opposite sex.

Without this willing choice, all your talking about is hormones or slavery. We were created and put on this Earth in that we might make the choice of who we would love.
If they are of the opposite sex.


I can assume, that you being a 'fatihful servant', that you forgot to qualify your sappy references to love, as only love between those of opposite sex, You may want to re-write that FS.

[faithfulservant]

Heterosexual love, that is.


If that person is of the opposite sex.


If they are of the opposite sex.


I can assume, that you being a 'fatihful servant', that you forgot to qualify your sappy references to love, as only love between those of opposite sex, You may want to re-write that FS.
Thank you for making my point about not understanding the nature of Love. You think that Love originates between a person's legs, when in fact it's an affair of the mind. It's a choice, not an emission of fluid.

There are a lot of men that I Love and there are a lot of women that I Love. There is, however, only one woman with whom I have entered into the covenant of marriage. You think that Love is nothing more than a hormonal response to sensory stimulus. You lower people to being nothing more than base creatures with no other goal than their own propogation. I have a different perspective.

[::Major_Baker::]

Thank you for making my point about not understanding the nature of Love. You think that Love originates between a person's legs, when in fact it's an affair of the mind. It's a choice, not an emission of fluid.

There are a lot of men that I Love and there are a lot of women that I Love. There is, however, only one woman with whom I have entered into the covenant of marriage. You think that Love is nothing more than a hormonal response to sensory stimulus. You lower people to being nothing more than base creatures with no other goal than their own propogation. I have a different perspective.
Whatever. You have no idea if I understand love or not. I said nothing of sex.
You are just starting to talk smack now.
First of all, can I assume, you being into the bible, that you don't agree with gay marriage? Let's clear that up first.

You just claimed that Love is the reason for everything. An 'affair of the mind', as you so eloquently put it. If two men have an 'affair of the mind', genuinely love eachother, and wish to marry, you would choose not to let them--solely because a bunch of text written hundreds of years ago says it's morally wrong.
I'm sorry sir, but it is YOU that does not understand love.

[heel31ok]

Heterosexual love, that is.


If that person is of the opposite sex.


If they are of the opposite sex.


I can assume, that you being a 'fatihful servant', that you forgot to qualify your sappy references to love, as only love between those of opposite sex, You may want to re-write that FS.
I do believ he is talking about Agape , when he says love.which has nothing to do with same or opposite sex, or with couples or partners. You are trying to turn it into something it is not and pushing and agenda. The answer to your main question is no . It is not heterosexual or sexual at all.

[heel31ok]

Whatever. You have no idea if I understand love or not. I said nothing of sex.
You are just starting to talk smack now.
First of all, can I assume, you being into the bible, that you don't agree with gay marriage? Let's clear that up first.

You just claimed that Love is the reason for everything. An 'affair of the mind', as you so eloquently put it. If two men have an 'affair of the mind', genuinely love eachother, and wish to marry, you would choose not to let them--solely because a bunch of text written hundreds of years ago says it's morally wrong.
I'm sorry sir, but it is YOU that does not understand love.
looks like he understands perfectly whether you understand love. You did refer to sex when you said , heterosexual. Or does that not mean sex? No wonder many do not trust the written word because even what they write does not mean what they actually say.

[::Major_Baker::]

I do believ he is talking about Agape , when he says love.which has nothing to do with same or opposite sex, or with couples or partners. You are trying to turn it into something it is not and pushing and agenda. The answer to your main question is no . It is not heterosexual or sexual at all.
I am pushing no agenda. I just find it odd that he focuses on love as beign very important, in fact the basis of life, yet in his regular life dismisses love between to of the same sex as if it isn't relevant and should be disregarded.
Just cathing people in their own traps, thats all.

[::Major_Baker::]

looks like he understands perfectly whether you understand love. You did refer to sex when you said , heterosexual. Or does that not mean sex? No wonder many do not trust the written word because even what they write does not mean what they actually say.
The word heterosexual has nothing to do with intercourse (the way I used it),, or as he so boldy out it, 'an emission of fluids'
I am referring to the attraction felt between two people. Man or woman, man or man, etc.
He keeps focusing on the importance of love, in fact, he said, that is why we are here on the Earth. If this is so, how can he justify allowing only some to completely love, and consquentially marry, based on their biological makeup?

And not only that, if we are truly here because of love, how can you justify considering homosexual love as a sin?

Besides, he hasn't been back here in a while, I think my title stands.

[Craig]

I have for awhile now had a hard time putting my head around this. In christianity we are taught that when we die we will go to heaven if you have been good and hell if you are bad (theres much more to it than this but I am not really looking for a discussion over these qualifiers) But I just find this immense because eternity is without end and I just wonder what would it be like? Even with our own short lives we get bored but imagine billions trillions quadrillions of years endless for all time what would that be like? What would a "person" do? I mean even if heaven is "perfect" a human would I believe eventually grow bored. Unless when one dies their soul is some how changed. But anyways what does everybody else think on this?

P.S.

I don't mean to be rude but if you only want to post that "heaven" does not exist please don't bother I merely wish to discuss this from philsophical, religious, humanist stand points and not debate the existance or lack there of, of heaven.

This is a good point and one I have considered as well. As heel31ok pointed out, we are supposed to be given jobs in the New Jerusalem, from God, that we will like. Even this might get boring after a while though too. So what can be done to avoid boredom? There's a few possible answers I'd like to consider, with varying degrees of orthodoxy.

1) Humans Simply Don't Get Bored Around God

It could be that the circumstances around new lives are such that we simply don't get bored. Even though we have the capacity for boredom, existence in the presence of God for all eternity is so exciting and with a freshness of pleasantry that we simply never enter this emotional state. This answer is probably the most orthodox of all, but it's also the least interesting.

2) Humans Resurrected Lack the Capacity for Boredom

This is simply a modification of the first point. When God resurrects human beings, He could conceivably make us so that we lack the capacity to become bored. In this case, no matter what we do and no matter how menial the task, we would never become bored in all of eternity. This answer is also relatively uninteresting; the only interesting thing about it is that it raised the philosophical question "What does it mean to be human?" and can lead us to wonder if we would still be human if such an adjustment was made to us.

3) God As The Infinite in Entertainment

Of the three responses, this is the least orthodox, though in my opinion it's the most interesting. It presupposes that God is omnipotent, or that He can do anything. (Please don't introduce "perfectly square circles" or similar concerns into this discussion on omnipotence, since they're irrelevant). It also presupposes omniscience; again, please don't introduce problems with omniscience here, as they are irrelevent to the discussion.

Because God is omnipotent, there is no reason whatsoever for us to be bored, because He can create whatever form of entertainment or exciting activity that we might want. For example, there's no reason why He couldn't recreate a giant car race for people to participate in, if they were so inclined. Likewise, any other hobby or entertainment imaginable, and indeed many hobbies that are only imaginable at this point, could be realized. And, because God's power is infinite, He could even remove concerns such as pain (which need not exist necessarily) and He could also resurrect a person in the unfortunate case that their body was destroyed. God could even create entirely new worlds and planets for humans to explore, with new animals and creatures as expressions of His infinite creativity.

Just think of even being able to talk to God and ask questions of Him. Most anything you'd want to know, He could explain (though whether or not you'd understand His explanation is still up for debate ;)). For instance, you could ask him exactly what certain historical figures looked like. Or whether Super String Theory is correct. Or maybe you might want to ask Him about some form of popular culture from Earth. The possibilities are literally endless.

This theory is the most problematic insofar that it introduces the possibility of suffering or pain into the afterlife, though this could be dealt with. Moreover, I can see that many people would reject this idea as it seems to imply that God exists to entertain us in the afterlife; rather, they would say, the focus is not on us at all, but rather worshipping and loving Him. To this second criticism, I would reply that I am not trying to imply that our next life must be a non-stop entertainment fest courtesy of God. There is no reason why work could not be a significant aspect of our existence. Presupposing that God is all loving, one could also argue that such a God would be more than happy to share delights and excitements of this sort with His people, as He knows they love Him and He truly cares about them. Finally, it can also be argued that a God who does provide some sort of etertainment or something to keep us likewise occupied and not bored, besides work, would be all the more beloved, amazing and astonishing to His creation (us) and therefore we would lavish praise and love upon Him, for all the infinitely many other things we owe Him praise for, and for His ability to break up the monotony in our day. A third criticism that might arise is that this could allow for the possibility of sin. In response to this, I would suggest that perhaps sin could be explained away through reasoning similar to my first two examples of alleviating boredom. Or perhaps God simply wouldn't entertain (pardon the pun) sinful requests. Or, at the risk of being heretical, maybe God will not necessarily apply the exact same moral values and ideas about sin on earth.

[faithfulservant]

The word heterosexual has nothing to do with intercourse (the way I used it),, or as he so boldy out it, 'an emission of fluids'
I am referring to the attraction felt between two people. Man or woman, man or man, etc.
He keeps focusing on the importance of love, in fact, he said, that is why we are here on the Earth. If this is so, how can he justify allowing only some to completely love, and consquentially marry, based on their biological makeup?

And not only that, if we are truly here because of love, how can you justify considering homosexual love as a sin?

Besides, he hasn't been back here in a while, I think my title stands.

Your own posts prove you wrong and you still cling to your self-deception. heel is dead-on accurate - the Greek term for what I'm talking about is "Agape". It's a concept that I'm fairly certain is utterly foreign to you. When I brought up love, you automatically thought of sex. Your warped perception of love blinds you to it's true meaning.

The topic of this thread is Heaven and the purpose behind it. If you want to enter into a discussion of homosexuality, start a thread on it.



BTW, I post before work, during lunch, after work and sometimes during long db queries (occasionally you'll see posts from me that seem kind of disjointed because I'll write for 2-3 minutes, run a query, write for 2-3 minutes, etc.). So just because I haven't responded to your post as quickly as you would like doesn't mean that your post has any merit.

[heel31ok]

I have considered the boredom idea and I think that life then will be like it is now in that we will still be able to learn and grow as a person. I do not think it will be a perfect world in the sense that evrything is complete and always exactly right.I believe that the difference will be the absence of the pressure of sin to sway us so forcefully. We will still have choices to make.
What causes boredom? We will not run out of things to do. Work will not be a drudgery or a chore or make our bodies ache with the desire to resist it. The whole universe and it's discovery will be at our disposal. I do not know how the difference between a glorified body and a mortal body will feel but I am looking forward to it.
We will rule with Christ according to the Bible and that indicates to me that there will be disputes and judgements to be made . I see it as a growing society and ever increasing kingdom. Bored, I do not see it happening. I believe that the plan of populating the whole universe will be inacted and that will take a long time and who knows what else.
To me this is all just the beginning the early stages of a grand and glorious eternal plan that God has.
I do not see technology going away and see even greater thing discovered and put into action.With the burning up of the elements I believe that is the separating and disposal of sin and the results of sin which is decline and death even in the earth. This sets up a world that is alive and vibrant truly evolving instead of devolving and wasting away. It is exciting to think about and yet if pondered too much the brain cannot take it all in. The Bible says that what God has prepared for us is greater than we can even imagine.
Like I said in another post I think that when it is all said and done heaven and eternal life will be pure reality and peace , not a foggy mystical experience. I think this reality and peace will come with the full use of our brain power and the realization of who we are and who God is and who we are in God through Christ. We were created in the image of God and that full potential will be realized when we are ressurected and united with our bodies and glorified by the power of God.

[heel31ok]

The word heterosexual has nothing to do with intercourse (the way I used it),, or as he so boldy out it, 'an emission of fluids'
I am referring to the attraction felt between two people. Man or woman, man or man, etc.
He keeps focusing on the importance of love, in fact, he said, that is why we are here on the Earth. If this is so, how can he justify allowing only some to completely love, and consquentially marry, based on their biological makeup?

And not only that, if we are truly here because of love, how can you justify considering homosexual love as a sin?

Besides, he hasn't been back here in a while, I think my title stands.
The love you speak of is eros love not agape and it deals directly with sex and sexual attraction. There is also Phileo love which is brotherly love. Agape is unconditional love that gives and loves no matter what.It is not attraction .
You guys are talking about two different things.


As far as hetro and homo go , one is not hetrosexual until they have sex with the opposite sex. One is not homosexual until they have sex with the same sex. So using the term refers to sex .

Complete Love/agape has nothing to do with sex!

[::Major_Baker::]

The love you speak of is eros love not agape and it deals directly with sex and sexual attraction. There is also Phileo love which is brotherly love. Agape is unconditional love that gives and loves no matter what.It is not attraction .
You guys are talking about two different things.


As far as hetro and homo go , one is not hetrosexual until they have sex with the opposite sex. One is not homosexual until they have sex with the same sex. So using the term refers to sex .

Complete Love/agape has nothing to do with sex!
That is false. If I have been dating a girl for 5 years, and love her, but have not had sex with her, I am stil heterosexual, because I feel attraction to her and prefer being with her instead of a guy.

And faithful, I know what agape is.
I appreciate the fact that you like to think you are smarter, or more informed than me, but I doubt that is the case.
I'm trying to call you on the fact that you think the entire reason we are here is because of love, but you obviously don't belive that, you are just saying it, because your actions would indirectly deny somone's love for another person, therefore denying them a chance ot fulfilling life by loving, simple based on their sexuality. Get it yet?

And sex and love are very much related, not always of course. But sex, for many, is the ultimate expression of love.

that is all.

[Craig]

I have considered the boredom idea and I think that life then will be like it is now in that we will still be able to learn and grow as a person. I do not think it will be a perfect world in the sense that evrything is complete and always exactly right.I believe that the difference will be the absence of the pressure of sin to sway us so forcefully. We will still have choices to make.
What causes boredom? We will not run out of things to do. Work will not be a drudgery or a chore or make our bodies ache with the desire to resist it. The whole universe and it's discovery will be at our disposal. I do not know how the difference between a glorified body and a mortal body will feel but I am looking forward to it.
We will rule with Christ according to the Bible and that indicates to me that there will be disputes and judgements to be made . I see it as a growing society and ever increasing kingdom. Bored, I do not see it happening. I believe that the plan of populating the whole universe will be inacted and that will take a long time and who knows what else.
To me this is all just the beginning the early stages of a grand and glorious eternal plan that God has.
I do not see technology going away and see even greater thing discovered and put into action.With the burning up of the elements I believe that is the separating and disposal of sin and the results of sin which is decline and death even in the earth. This sets up a world that is alive and vibrant truly evolving instead of devolving and wasting away. It is exciting to think about and yet if pondered too much the brain cannot take it all in. The Bible says that what God has prepared for us is greater than we can even imagine.
Like I said in another post I think that when it is all said and done heaven and eternal life will be pure reality and peace , not a foggy mystical experience. I think this reality and peace will come with the full use of our brain power and the realization of who we are and who God is and who we are in God through Christ. We were created in the image of God and that full potential will be realized when we are ressurected and united with our bodies and glorified by the power of God.

So essentially, "Humans Simply Don't Get Bored Around God"- we simply won't be bored in the new kingdom on earth. I find it interesting that no one, including myself, has actually suggested the possibility that yes, we could become bored.

[mugawump]

Major Baker, from your post, I would asume you are Gay. No matter, I'm happy too. However he was talking about Love. It is not hetro or homo. It is multi-SENSUAL I would aqppear you were trying to put words in his mouth. (you failed miserably.) Love is between two (or more) people regardless of gender, age, race, or any other diminishing characteristic.

[alfred]

But I just find this immense because eternity is without end and I just wonder what would it be like?

How totally silly.

Disingenuous as your quesion more than likely is, we are not dead and not qualified to answer.

Scaryclouds, if one day you happen to die, ask big G for dispensation to come back and start a new thread to tell us all about it.

In the meantime, live long and prosper.

[Scaryclouds]

Sorry I haven't posted for awhile but to Craig very good post. Personally as I think of heaven its a mix of 1 and 3. Because at least from my teachings of Christanity that would fit a description of God fairly well with his immense love and power. Also I liked reading other peoples posts on this subject I'm glad that at least some people also discussed the philosophical side of heaven.

But to Major Baker I must ask why? I started this thread in hopes to study the philosophical ideas of heaven and eternity from different perspectives but you have to start posting about heaven dosn't exist and how people who believe in a religion are ignorant. Once agian why? Is it that determental to your way of life that I along with about 95% of the planet practice some sort of religion and believe in some sort of higher being/s? That you have to post that belief in heaven is blind ignorance? I just find it sad, rude, and hypocritical I start this thread not looking for a debate and you post I am ignorant for believing in a God. And also clearly you do not understand Agape or you are unable to communicate to us that you do, it has to be one of the two. Faithful did not mentioned anything about sex or sexes when referencing love but you brought up heterosexual love which is unrelated to the word Agape, I can love my father without being in love with him.

How totally silly.

Disingenuous as your quesion more than likely is, we are not dead and not qualified to answer.

Scaryclouds, if one day you happen to die, ask big G for dispensation to come back and start a new thread to tell us all about it.

In the meantime, live long and prosper.

Comments like that you can keep to yourself. It was philosophical question and I was not looking for a definante answer (i.e. 2+2=4). I have no idea how my question could been seen as disingenuous as it was philosophical and ambiguous at that. But irregardless if you are looking to stay on this forum for any amount of time I would suggest not making anymore posts like that. You personally attacked me for no reason and such activites are not tolerated on this forum.

[::Major_Baker::]

Major Baker, from your post, I would asume you are Gay. No matter, I'm happy too. However he was talking about Love. It is not hetro or homo. It is multi-SENSUAL I would aqppear you were trying to put words in his mouth. (you failed miserably.) Love is between two (or more) people regardless of gender, age, race, or any other diminishing characteristic.
You assume wrong.
You guys just don't get what I am trying to say. You must be too fkking dense.

[Scaryclouds]

You assume wrong.
You guys just don't get what I am trying to say. You must be too fkking dense.


Are perhapes you are just to dense to communicate your thoughts or are outright wrong.

[mugawump]

MAJOR BAKER----Then by all means, say what you mean, not what you are TRYING to say. We are not mind readers. (And most likely we are not as "DENSE" as you.)

[::Major_Baker::]

Are perhapes you are just to dense to communicate your thoughts or are outright wrong.
where the hell did you come from?
There is no 'right or wrong' on this subject.

Listen, I have explained what I am trying to say multiple times, but you just aren't understanding it.

Love. That's the answer your looking for. Love is why God put us here.
snip...
We were created and put on this Earth in that we might make the choice of who we would love.

Faithful is claiming that love is the whole reason we are on this earth, and then would likely have the audacity to claim that homosexual love is a sin, perhaps immoral, and would probably vote to deny the right of love to someone, by denying them the right to marry.
So he really doesn't support why God put us here.

That's my point, for the last time.

[Scaryclouds]

where the hell did you come from?
There is no 'right or wrong' on this subject.

Listen, I have explained what I am trying to say multiple times, but you just aren't understanding it.


Well you call other people "fkking dense" because you are misinterpreting their usage of love. And you are misinterperting it. hetero/homosexuality is almost entirley lust yes you may also love them in a non-lustful way because they are your soulmate because they are of the opposite/same gender but as far as the gay/straight thing goes it really isn't DIRECTLY related to love in the sense we are talking so once agian you are wrong here.