A World free from religion.....

[::Major_Baker::]

Well, in a fairly tale sort of way, it seems beautiful to me:

No crusades
No holocaust
What else could have been prevented?

This isn't supposed to be 'anti-religion' (or pro-religion for that matter, but for those of you that know me I didn't figure that you would assume that)\

I am just curious as to how many events we can come up with,bad or good, that would/may not have occurred if there were no religion.

Go!

[The Big Bog]

Christmas blow out sales.

[towski]

I'll try to list one good, one bad...

Mother Teresa
Moonies
Holidays
Crappy Sunday morning TV
Thanksgiving
Waco
Catholic Schoolgirls
Catholic Priests

[nogoodname90]

Ok i belive it would be way more peacefull and people wouldnt wonder and care about god and why we are here just live on peacefully but then there will still be greedy people jack ***'s and idiots their to destroy the peace religon just adds on

[The Big Bog]

I'll try to list one good, one bad...

Mother Teresa
Moonies
Holidays
Crappy Sunday morning TV
Thanksgiving
Waco
Catholic Schoolgirls
Catholic Priests
So which is the good one? :D

[faithfulservant]

Well, in a fairly tale sort of way, it seems beautiful to me:

No crusades
No holocaust
What else could have been prevented?

This isn't supposed to be 'anti-religion' (or pro-religion for that matter, but for those of you that know me I didn't figure that you would assume that)\

I am just curious as to how many events we can come up with,bad or good, that would/may not have occurred if there were no religion.

Go!
Schools
Hospitals
The most effective charitable orgs.
Science
Law
Order

[::Major_Baker::]

Schools
Hospitals
The most effective charitable orgs.
Science
Law
Order
:rolleyes: The charitable orgs I'll agree with.
If it were up to early religion, science would have been eternally repressed.

[Russikan]

Schools
Hospitals
The most effective charitable orgs.
Science
Law
Order

Wow! You managed to name lots of things affected by religion that would still exist without it. (different charitable organizations would be the most effective)

[Craig]

Schools
Hospitals
The most effective charitable orgs.
Science
Law
Order

This list has has one central assumption that I find questionable. It presupposes that all of these things cannot have developed independently of religion. For instance, schools appeared (in very simplistic terms) because the church helped to preserve knowledge, and therefore it was possible to set up institutions to instruct this body of knowledge. The problem however is that this assumes religion is what lead to the existence of schools. As we know, Plato's academy in Ancient Rome functioned as a school because people were taught to think and reason within the Socratic tradition, and Aristotle broadened this further by discussing and offering ideas about nearly every form of scholastic endeavour under the sun at that time. Clearly, schools are not something necessarily born of religion, and existed prior to Christianity.

In terms of law, pretty much every society has some form of law, and at the same time practiced some form of religion. The question, however, is whether or not law depends upon religion for its existence. The answer is no, it does not. Logically speaking, that religion and law exist in most societies does not mean that one lead to another. And indeed, I'm not trying to deny that religion has not heavily influenced law, in the case of Christianity or other religions. It is possible though to have a society which is hostile to religion and yet still has laws. In order to compel people to believe that law depends upon religion, you need to illustrate why religion is absolutely necessary for law, and that we can have law iff we have religion.

As for order, I might remind you that the purpose of laws is to produce order of some sort. So this really isn't a seperate development at all, but one that is just a feature of law.

With hospitals, you must surely be thinking of the Knights Hospitaller, who were a Christian order. Did you perhaps forget though that the Ancient Greeks had the island of Kos, which was dedicated to healing? And it was Hippocrates, another Greek, who came up with the idea of the four humours, which dominated the medieval medical understanding of health problems. Interests in medicine and health clearly transcend any one particular religion, and there is no good reason to suggest that hospitals would not have existed without Christainity or any other religion, for that matter.

Science is probably the most tenuous connection of all. When Bacon wrote his Novum Organon, which is pretty much the first modern conceptualization of science, his concern was natural philosophy, not religion. His treatise was a reaction to the sterile Aristotelean, Platonic, and Pre-Socratic traditions of natural philosophy. Bacon states that natural philosophies must produce fruits, or things to benefit man, in order to be considered useful. That Bacon was a Christian is entirely incidental to his development of the Novum Organon. Science has little connection with religion, save for scientists who were also incidentally members of a particular faith.

I will leave your point of the most charitable organizations, since it is probably correct. I will note, as with the other examples though, that it is possible to have charitable organizations without religion.

[faithfulservant]

My point was that most colleges were founded by religions, most hospitals were founded by religions, most laws are based on relgious precepts, order was established as a result of religious requirements, science originated because of religious people's efforts to undestand just how their creator made things.

[Craig]

My point was that most colleges were founded by religions, most hospitals were founded by religions, most laws are based on relgious precepts, order was established as a result of religious requirements, science originated because of religious people's efforts to undestand just how their creator made things.

You will note that the thesis of this thread is "I am just curious as to how many events we can come up with,bad or good, that would/may not have occurred if there were no religion." Therefore, when you respond, your response should be tailored to this question. We're not really concerned with whether or not most of these things have been founded by religion; we're interested in whether or not they would exist without it. My response is that quite clearly they do.

[Duo_Maxwell]

So which is the good one? :D

hmmm. Catholic schoolgirls vs holidays. Tough choice.

[Scaryclouds]

Well last I checked the Nazis were not really religious other than perhapes some occult practices so while the Jews where persecuted because of their religion it really wasn't another religion doing that. Basically the holocaust wasn't caused because of religion in the same way as the crusades. Also while I already know you won't agree with this how bout existance? No God, no universe.

[Craig]

Well last I checked the Nazis were not really religious other than perhapes some occult practices so while the Jews where persecuted because of their religion it really wasn't another religion doing that. Basically the holocaust wasn't caused because of religion in the same way as the crusades. Also while I already know you won't agree with this how bout existance? No God, no universe.

You've conflated God with religion. The discussion is on the latter, not the former. Even if we had a world without religion, that doesn't mean that there wouldn't be any possibility of God existing. It therefore doesn't make sense to talk about "No God; no universe" because we are discussing "no religion", not "no God".

[RobinD69]

Ok Craig instead of attacking someones opinion how about your own?
Marriage
Monogomy
Charity
Faithfulness
Law and Order
Without religion these things would not exist,atheist havent started anything positive,but religions have.

[JoeR]

I don't see why those wouldn't exist without religion, except faithfulness if you mean in a religious sense and not in a marriage sense.

[Russikan]

Ok Craig instead of attacking someones opinion how about your own?
Marriage
Monogomy
Charity
Faithfulness
Law and Order
Without religion these things would not exist,atheist havent started anything positive,but religions have.

Marriage is a name for something. Monogomy exists in nonsentient life forms. Voles and some species of Bird are monogamous. Is that from their religion?

I'm not sure what you mean by faithfulness.

Charity, Law, and Order are three more things that would come to exist without religion. In fact each of these can be seen to exist in primitive forms in animals as well.

Your wishful thinking blinds you. Atheism has never created anything because a lack of belief does not create things. Yet atheists have contributed much to society, and trust me that is one argument that you don't want to get involved in.

[rjamortega]

Marriage is a name for something. Monogomy exists in nonsentient life forms. Voles and some species of Bird are monogamous. Is that from their religion?

I'm not sure what you mean by faithfulness.

Charity, Law, and Order are three more things that would come to exist without religion. In fact each of these can be seen to exist in primitive forms in animals as well.

Your wishful thinking blinds you. Atheism has never created anything because a lack of belief does not create things. Yet atheists have contributed much to society, and trust me that is one argument that you don't want to get involved in.
Sorry to piss on the parade but we gotta be real now.

As much as I can determine, religions, sects and cults only do two major things...they provide a value system and promote traditional ceremony. Depending on the particular values and who profits from them pretty much sets the pace for that religion. Now in the case of Christianity and Judiism we need to be careful what we attribute to them because they've both gone thru reformation. I don't see too many Christian churches who continue to burn witches and lock up heretics.

I suspect without religious values-judeo/christian in particular-the world today would be far worse. Religion does not eliminate base human nature. It only works to control or alter it through reason. Without religious values man would still have his base nature and every man would be more free to determine his own individual values. I suppose out of necessity humans of different regions would have to adopt a set of values and laws so as to maintain order. However, as laws and values differed from region to region there would still be disagreements, conflicts and war. Nothing could possibly change for the better and I think it would only be worse.

Today's Dennis Prager show talked about the influence judeo-christian values played in the forming of America. At one point he was describing how it is his opinion that J-C values are the best source he knows for making the world the best it can be. The caller was proclaiming how it should be the right of every individual to make the determination for personal values. Hhe also drew upon all the historical ugliness many of you mention here. Prager said the problem is not what works for the individual, but what works for the world. What set of values can best make the world the best it can be.

Keep in mind too that many different religions hold dear many similar values as J-C. And most important to keep in mind, Prager made the point to say it is not the religions of Judaism and Christianity he calls on the world to adopt, but rather their values. He stressed values and religion are two different things.

I found that to be a new revelation I'd never thought of before. Pretty profound in my simple mind.

[rjamortega]

Oh, and one more tid-bit Prager mentioned that I found interesting...

He said the recent efforts of the ACLU to have all religious symbols removed from all civic and government entities do not actually serve to seperate church and state but rather is an effort to remove a city, state or nation's historical references. By including a cross on its seal a southern California city is acknowledging it's historical roots. The efforts of the ACLU only serve to erase that history. Prager likened this to similar actions by nazis and Stalin when they siezed control of their countries.
(Prager clarified he was not declaring a fear of the ACLU eventually causing the siezure of the nation. Only that it was not a good move for the sake of national and local identity)

[Tuatara]

Sorry to piss on the parade but we gotta be real now.

As much as I can determine, religions, sects and cults only do two major things...they provide a value system and promote traditional ceremony..You forgot starting wars and conflicts and control of the people.
Now in the case of Christianity and Judiism we need to be careful what we attribute to them because they've both gone thru reformation. I don't see too many Christian churches who continue to burn witches and lock up heretics.You're right but they can't change their past.
I suspect without religious values-judeo/christian in particular-the world today would be far worse.Wrong, all those values were in place long before monotheistic religions were around. Also how many conflicts or wars have atheists started?
Religion does not eliminate base human nature. It only works to control or alter it through reason.No, it controls it through power and force and manipulation.
Without religious values man would still have his base nature and every man would be more free to determine his own individual values.Like thinking for themselves.
I suppose out of necessity humans of different regions would have to adopt a set of values and laws so as to maintain order. However, as laws and values differed from region to region there would still be disagreements, conflicts and war. Nothing could possibly change for the better and I think it would only be worse.Regions have nothing to do with it. You may have the exact same religion/values as someone on the opposite side of the world as you.
Today's Dennis Prager show talked about the influence judeo-christian values played in the forming of America. At one point he was describing how it is his opinion that J-C values are the best source he knows for making the world the best it can be.Like I said before, all these values were in place before. Dennis Prager doesn't know his history.
The caller was proclaiming how it should be the right of every individual to make the determination for personal values. Hhe also drew upon all the historical ugliness many of you mention here. Prager said the problem is not what works for the individual, but what works for the world. What set of values can best make the world the best it can be.Who determines what's best for the world? Certainly with all the conflicts and wars associated with religion one would assume that this in not in the best interests of the world.
Keep in mind too that many different religions hold dear many similar values as J-C. And most important to keep in mind, Prager made the point to say it is not the religions of Judaism and Christianity he calls on the world to adopt, but rather their values. He stressed values and religion are two different things.Adopting the values of Judaism and Christianity is a pretty vague term. Which values. Who's interpertation of these values? Which Judaism and Christianity values are separate from other religions and non-religion?
I found that to be a new revelation I'd never thought of before. Pretty profound in my simple mind.I found no revelation in that at all. You want to read something that will change the way you think. Read "The Story Of B" by Daniel Quinn

[rjamortega]

You forgot starting wars and conflicts and control of the people.

You're right but they can't change their past.

Wrong, all those values were in place long before monotheistic religions were around. Also how many conflicts or wars have atheists started?
I am speaking for the typical values. Not the religions themselves. I have no problem believing the values may have existed long before the forming of the religions.

No, it controls it through power and force and manipulation.
When I stated that it controls and alters through reason I meant the reason of the believer, not the religion or church. The religion offers its laws and values but it is up to the individual to consider then accept or reject, aka reason.

Like thinking for themselves.
That is what I said. (well at least we agree somewhere)

Regions have nothing to do with it. You may have the exact same religion/values as someone on the opposite side of the world as you.
I never said similarities couldn't develope in different regions. Just that many would differ.
Oh, and don't forget the topic calls for a 'World free from religion', so in the scenario you and I are referring to here there will be no religions. Just laws and rules.

Like I said before, all these values were in place before. Dennis Prager doesn't know his history.
This had nothing whatsoever to do with what I said. :confused:

Who determines what's best for the world? Certainly with all the conflicts and wars associated with religion one would assume that this in not in the best interests of the world.
Don't worry, no one has forced you into anything yet. Prager is giving his opinion. He can do that, can't he?
You continue to judge Judaism and Christianity of today by their actions of the ancient past. And you keep confusing values with religions. I'm afraid we're not getting very far.

Adopting the values of Judaism and Christianity is a pretty vague term. Which values. Who's interpertation of these values? Which Judaism and Christianity values are separate from other religions and non-religion?
You know what's sad about a chat forum like this? Far too many fail to get the general meaning in a conversation, and instead insist on long and tedious statements to remove all doubt, and piles of studies and links.

Tuatara,
How could you get this far into the conversation if you didn't have any idea of what I was referring to?!?

I found no revelation in that at all. You want to read something that will change the way you think. Read "The Story Of B" by Daniel Quinn
Okay, I can understand that you find no fascination in what I presented. That's probably a common reaction by many who read my post. But many things change the way I think. Participating here at WS has changed how I think. If it's ok with you I will pass on 'The Story of B', at least for now, thank you.

[sub_zer0]

I think you mean "A world free from the devil"

[rjamortega]

I think you mean "A world free from the devil"
No, Sub. That is another topic for another thread. The title here is quite specific.

[RobinD69]

You cannot prove things would or would not exist without religion,because religion always has been and always will be.

[harman]

The holocaust had nothing to do with religion. The crusades were caused by evil Muslims invading Europe. Besides without religion the world would be like the USSR. A commie police state.

[Russikan]

Harman, please tell me that was sarcasm.

rj, I note you didn't even remotely address my assertion that all the trapings of society can be found in primative forms in animal species. I was showing that they can exist without religion existing. So if animals have some "Judeo-Christian values" then clearly we could have developed those same values without religion.

I believe this also trumps your point Robin.

[RobinD69]

Harman, please tell me that was sarcasm.

rj, I note you didn't even remotely address my assertion that all the trapings of society can be found in primative forms in animal species. I was showing that they can exist without religion existing. So if animals have some "Judeo-Christian values" then clearly we could have developed those same values without religion.

I believe this also trumps your point Robin.
Not really considering animals are controled by God for the most part through instinct.

[USA-1]

Not really considering animals are controled by God for the most part through instinct.
Don't animals also have free will?

[RobinD69]

Don't animals also have free will?
Yes but they are also guided by instinct.

[Russikan]

Not really considering animals are controled by God for the most part through instinct.

So what about the animals that don't hold those values? Are they controlled by the Devil? What about the ones that have been shown to perform homosexual acts?

[rjamortega]

...

rj, I note you didn't even remotely address my assertion that all the trapings of society can be found in primative forms in animal species. I was showing that they can exist without religion existing. So if animals have some "Judeo-Christian values" then clearly we could have developed those same values without religion.

...
Russ,

I don't see where you sited all the trappings of (human) society found in animal species. You only mentioned monogamy in Voles. But even if animals do practice some or all typical human traits, it is out of instincts and not a sense of value. Unless you have credible studies that prove animals practice values driven by reason.

Very early on in this thread I specifically mentioned that values of any kind-Judeo-Christian or otherwise-are not the same thing as religion, or a religion. You can hold personal values that go along with the teachings of a particular religion and yet not be a part of that religion. It is the values I am talking about. Not the jewish or christian religions.

[Russikan]

Russ,

I don't see where you sited all the trappings of (human) society found in animal species. You only mentioned monogamy in Voles. But even if animals do practice some or all typical human traits, it is out of instincts and not a sense of value. Unless you have credible studies that prove animals practice values driven by reason.

I was saying that they all can be found, not giving examples of all of them.

But my point is that you don't really know that humans don't do these things on instinct. Instincts affect our thoughts and thus create our values. So therefore all the values we have could have come about without religion, which you'll note, is what I said in the first place since this is a thread about what would happen without religion.

[DRMIZER]

Well, in a fairly tale sort of way, it seems beautiful to me:

No crusades
No holocaust
What else could have been prevented?

This isn't supposed to be 'anti-religion' (or pro-religion for that matter, but for those of you that know me I didn't figure that you would assume that)\

I am just curious as to how many events we can come up with,bad or good, that would/may not have occurred if there were no religion.

Go!We'd probably have a cure for cancer by now and have trillions more dollars in the national budget because there would be no tax exempt status for churches.

[heel31ok]

Nothing would happen without religion because all people are religious.This is not to say all are spiritual or believe in God. People do all sorts of things religiously and always will.Lucky shirts, rabbit's foot,go same way home everyday.

[DRMIZER]

Nothing would happen without religion because all people are religious.This is not to say all are spiritual or believe in God. People do all sorts of things religiously and always will.Lucky shirts, rabbit's foot,go same way home everyday.I think you're s t r e t c h i n g to make a point. Yes, I wash my clothes religiously. I eat religiously. I'm not sure that makes me religious. Geez! ;)

[heel31ok]

If you do something religiously , yes that is religion.The term religion is a misnomer for what most try to make it mean. That is why there is so much disenchantment with religion because it may or may not have anything to do with God , but it has everything to do with people.people look to religion for answers and positive effects on their life when religion can not do that. People who suffer from OCD are an extreme example of my point. They have to do things in a certain way in a certain order for a certain number of times to be able to move onto the next step in their life. if something interrupts and they can't do it the same way, they have to start all over again.That is religion in a nutshell.

[Dangerrmouse]

You appear to be equating religious belief with psychological illness.

[DRMIZER]

You appear to be equating religious belief with psychological illness.Interesting Freudian analysis.

[::Major_Baker::]

Since I posted this thread in november 2005, thousands and thousands have died directly due to religion.

I am very negative when it comes to organized religion--part of me thinks it is the root of all evil in the world.

Any thoughts changed since I posted this thread Nov 4th, 2005?
Are we ready to have at it again?

What has it done to the world? How has it perpetuated for so long, when there are so many examples of its inconsistency and its violent results?

[julierep]

You will note that the thesis of this thread is "I am just curious as to how many events we can come up with,bad or good, that would/may not have occurred if there were no religion." Therefore, when you respond, your response should be tailored to this question. We're not really concerned with whether or not most of these things have been founded by religion; we're interested in whether or not they would exist without it. My response is that quite clearly they do.

I dont know Craig. The question includes "may not have occured without religion" which, in case, Faithful would be correct in his response. How would we know that any of these things would have existed or not (your response was "quite clearly they do." or would), however, they dont "clearly" exist without religion because religion has been around for quite some time. In fact, has been around, according to those who believe, since the beginning of time. So it is not a black or white answer. Like Faithful has pointed out, all were funded by religious groups. How do we know "clearly" that any other group would have been so gracious to fund these things Faithful mentioned?

[Confucius]

Thing is really, if we couldnt find Religion to fight about, we'd find something else to fight about. YOu see the big people in Charge, say of the Islamic Militants, really probably dont believe that much, but they use Islam as a tool to recruit soldiers.

[Lumpen Prole]

Ok Craig instead of attacking someones opinion how about your own?
Marriage
Monogomy
Charity
Faithfulness
Law and Order
Without religion these things would not exist,atheist havent started anything positive,but religions have.

First of all, those things all existed before Christianity did. Second, you are also operating under the assumption that such things cannot exist independently of religion. For example, I am an atheist. I am also monogomous; I give to and believe in charities; I am faithful to many people, things and ideas. I'm sure I'll end up getting married one day (to one woman), too. Law and order certainly exist independent of religion. I've never killed another person, for example.

So, if what you say is true, how do explain my existence? :rolleyes:

[julierep]

First of all, those things all existed before Christianity did. Second, you are also operating under the assumption that such things cannot exist independently of religion. For example, I am an atheist. I am also monogomous; I give to and believe in charities; I am faithful to many people, things and ideas. I'm sure I'll end up getting married one day (to one woman), too. Law and order certainly exist independent of religion. I've never killed another person, for example.

So, if what you say is true, how do explain my existence? :rolleyes:

I believe the point is that you have learned inherent values and such, as anyone else, from religion, whether that was the intent or not. You may not have learned it directly from religion, but religion has been around quite some time longer than you and along the lines, these values have been passed down for thousands of years. Basically, no one is able to determine what or how exactly one would act if there werent religion, because as long as anyone of us has been alive, religion has been around to teach these basic values. We are not just talking about Christianity here.

[Craig]

I dont know Craig. The question includes "may not have occured without religion" which, in case, Faithful would be correct in his response. How would we know that any of these things would have existed or not (your response was "quite clearly they do." or would), however, they dont "clearly" exist without religion because religion has been around for quite some time. In fact, has been around, according to those who believe, since the beginning of time. So it is not a black or white answer. Like Faithful has pointed out, all were funded by religious groups. How do we know "clearly" that any other group would have been so gracious to fund these things Faithful mentioned?

Respectfully, the point you've raised here is not strong enough. You're argument is something along the lines of "all peoples have religions, religions have a large influence upon people, therefore religion may be responsible for the list of things that Faithful mentioned." As you've acknowledged, the strongest assertion that we can make is that religion may be responsible for them. However, the evidence doesn't indicate that this is the case. All that the evidence indicates is that all peoples (referred to collectively) have had some sort of religion, and that things such as law, order, schools, hospitals and the like things which also are things that are features of human existence.

Moreover, there is a simple thought experiment that quite strongly suggests the opposite of what you suggest. Suppose for a moment we have a group of humans who have no conception of religion and have "regular" human cognitive capacities, whatever that may mean exactly. Now, can you think of a persuasive reason to suggest that these humans would never develop laws, hospitals, universities and the like on their own, given enough time?

The facile response is to suggest that humans are inherently evil and wouldn't cooperate with one another, but it's a terrible argument. Animals who lack the ability to communicate as effectively as we do, and who lack the same mental sophisitication that we possess are more than capable of cooperating together- why on earth would we never be able to do this? Furthermore, even inherently self-interested individuals can recognize the value of group cooperation for personal survival and protection. So without question, there is no reason to accept this argument, or at the very least, no reason to consider it "persuasive".

I contend that while religion may have played a role in the development of the things that Faithfulservant mentioned, it is not necessary for the existence of any of them.

[MikeD4o7]

There's no value or principle that's worth having that can't be found naturally without religion through a sincere respect for fellow humans, empathy for their situations, and reason. None.

[brainpan]

Well, in a fairly tale sort of way, it seems beautiful to me:I like the way you framed the statement because I believe men will always be religious. Wherever one religion dies, another springs up to take it's place.
No crusades
No holocaust
What else could have been prevented?The Crusades would not have occurred in a world without religion, but I'm sceptical whether an atheistic world would have seen less terror than our own. In your alternate universe, mankind's inherent tendency to be unbelievably cruel to each other would have manifested itself in unique ways that might be hard for us to understand from our own perspective. Stalin's Soviet Union seemed pretty eager to kill off millions of "undesirables," despite it's active suppression of religious expression.
I am just curious as to how many events we can come up with,bad or good, that would/may not have occurred if there were no religion. Go!I'm not qualified to answer this question. My layman's perspective leads me to believe that religion served to hasten the formation of civilizations in early recorded history. In some cases, religious figures has stymied scientific advance, but their religious forefathers helped build the infrastucture that made it possible in the first place.

My take on religion: it has done and still does a lot of good, but it has done and continues to do a lot of bad. Religion itself is neither good or bad, but you can definitely find both things in it's expression.

[FlyingGuineapig]

Well, let's look at how cultures/societies that have developed without religion and see how well they've done....

Hmm, offhand, I can't think of any. Certainly no mainstream culture/society. One could argue that Eastern religions are closer to "philosophies" than the Western-style religion, but even with Confucianism and Buddhism, they're presented to the masses as religion (while the individuals Buddha and Confuciusmay have been more agnostic than anything else, those who propogated their teachings built up religions around them).

As has been pointed out, there have been a few cases where societies have attempted to "remove" religion after the fact. The USSR was a notable failure. China still seems to be trying - we'll see in another 50 years or so how well it went.

So, out of the thousands of societies and cultures which have emerged in the past few thousand years, it would seem that either they've all contained at least some elements of religion, or those without religion had no "staying power".

That might be something to think about....

[AgentM]

So, out of the thousands of societies and cultures which have emerged in the past few thousand years, it would seem that either they've all contained at least some elements of religion, or those without religion had no "staying power".

That might be something to think about....

Another thing to think about is that some societies seem to be "evolving out" of religion. Canadian society for one, appears to be getting less and less religious. When you look at the age groups here, elderly people seem to be the most religious, with young adults being the least religious. Canada certainly is not a very religious country overall. It will be interesting to see if religion continues to dissapate here.

[FlyingGuineapig]

Another thing to think about is that some societies seem to be "evolving out" of religion. Canadian society for one, appears to be getting less and less religious. When you look at the age groups here, elderly people seem to be the most religious, with young adults being the least religious. Canada certainly is not a very religious country overall. It will be interesting to see if religion continues to dissapate here.

I'm skeptical on that. While a lot of folks claim that countries like Europe are abandoning religion, when I've looked more deeply into it, it's more a lessening of intensity and improved tolerance. It's still there - it's just not something people are fighting over. Being religous no longer means you hate/try-to-kill people of different religions.

The US seems to be a bit more odd. Religion seems to becoming more of a hot button over the past few decades, but frankly, I think that's more due to blame-based politics than actual religious belief (this thread is a perfect example of that). Some folks want to make religions a scapegoat for everything that's wrong in the world, and others want to make blame it all on atheism & socialism.

What makes the analysis somewhat complicated is that the role that religion tends to play in people's live changes they age. If you want to be cynical about it, old folks are closer to death and probably a lot more interested in the afterlife than someone who's 20. The 20 year old probably has college, work, a pretty active social life, etc - whereas the older person is most likely retired, and possibly with a spouse/significant friends who have passed over to the great beyond.

I'd also suspect that you'll see religion take on importance during the phase of starting to raise a family. While religions certainly don't have a monopoly on morals (despite some folks' claims to the contrary), they typically provide moral instruction to the young. When the youngster matures, they typically lose interest in it, until it becomes time to raise a family of their own and then again, when they're older and starting to face death more personally themselves.

[AgentM]

What makes the analysis somewhat complicated is that the role that religion tends to play in people's live changes they age. If you want to be cynical about it, old folks are closer to death and probably a lot more interested in the afterlife than someone who's 20. The 20 year old probably has college, work, a pretty active social life, etc - whereas the older person is most likely retired, and possibly with a spouse/significant friends who have passed over to the great beyond.

True that probably is a factor. However, I think the bigger thing is that during our grandparents generations the vast majority of the population were religious (of one religion or denomination or another). There were far fewer atheists, most everybody went to church. There's been a shift in society since then (I'm not sure what it is).

[Sauniere]

Well, in a fairly tale sort of way, it seems beautiful to me:

No crusades
No holocaust
What else could have been prevented?

This isn't supposed to be 'anti-religion' (or pro-religion for that matter, but for those of you that know me I didn't figure that you would assume that)\

I am just curious as to how many events we can come up with,bad or good, that would/may not have occurred if there were no religion.

Go!

Another John Lennon wish as expoused in "Imagine."

[steveksux]

Is the "Religion" forum the proper place to post "A World free from religion..."?

Just asking..

Randy

[brainpan]

Another John Lennon wish as expoused in "Imagine."Which proves he liked championing lost causes.

[brainpan]

Is the "Religion" forum the proper place to post "A World free from religion..."?

Just asking..

RandyWell, certain Christians just love to call atheism a religion... :D

[lawman]

Hasn't anybody mentioned the Inquisition? MajorBaker, doesn't this strike you as odd?

I guess it's really true that no one expects the Spanish Inquisition...

[W.J. Wilczek]

“Then, lastly, the creed of the philosophers of sages varied according to the character and knowledge of each; their relative acquaintance with the secrets of natural science, their intellectual and sectarian egotism, and their mystic or monastic tendencies, for there is a classic as well as a mediaeval monasticism. They end in losing the life of Greece in play upon words; but we owe to their early thought some of the soundest ethics, and the foundation of the best practical laws, yet known to mankind.

“Such was the general vitality of the heathen creed in its strength. Of its direct influence on conduct, it is, as I said, impossible for me to speak now; only, remember always, in endeavoring to form a judgment of it, that what of good or right the heathens did, they did looking for no reward. The purest forms of our own religion have always consisted in sacrificing less things to win greater, time to win eternity, the world to win the skies. The order, ‘Sell that thou hast,’ is not given without the promise, ‘Thou shalt have treasure in heaven;’ and well for the modern Christian if he accepts the alternative as his Master left it, and does not practically read the command and promise thus: ‘Sell that thou hast in the best market, and thou shalt have treasure in eternity also.’ But the poor Greeks of the great ages expected no reward from heaven but honor, and no reward from earth but rest; though, when, on those conditions, they patiently, and proudly, fulfilled their task of the granted day, an unreasoning instinct of an immortal benediction broke from their lips in song; and they, even they, had sometimes a prophet to tell them of a land ‘where there is sun alike by day and alike by night, where they shall need no more to trouble the earth by strength of hands for daily bread; but the ocean breezes blow around the blessed islands, and golden flowers burn on their bright trees for evermore.’”

- John Ruskin, “Athena Chalinitis,” The Queen of the Air (1869)