To those who thirst for God's judgement [Archive] - Whistle Stopper Political Forums

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Senor Herberto

11-24-2005, 03:57 AM

It is your job to love. Jesus called you to love and pray for even your enemies. God's will is perfect. God will not force you to love Him or others. God created your enemies and loves them even though they may not love perfectly.

Is it right for Abel to love Cain, or should they hate? Love is still the answer.

Void Image

11-24-2005, 04:37 AM

God will not force you to love Him or others.
Yet it you don't love him, you will suffer eternally in a hell of his own creation.

Craig

11-24-2005, 05:02 AM

Yet it you don't love him, you will suffer eternally in a hell of his own creation.

That's not a problem, according to Leibnizian Optimism. You see, this world that God created represents the best world of all possible worlds, and so even if there are apparent problems and evils associated with this world, they are really part of a greater underlying order and goodness. As we cannot know God's plan, we should simply be content that this is the best possible world.

Now, where's the resident forum fan of Voltaire, Duo...? ;)

Void Image

11-24-2005, 05:12 AM

Scaryclouds

11-24-2005, 01:36 PM

Another thought on God's judgement. First off, I am told that God does not force us to love him because he's given us free will, and he can't force us to do anything. So when he sends you to hell, and you obviously don't WANT to go there, isn't this a violation of free will? I may be wrong, I'm just curious as to how a christian would answer that.

I have an analogy to explain this.

Imagine two boxes for simplicity lets call them box A and box B. Now a person tells you that box A has a really great gift and Box B has nothing special in it. Lets also assume you have no real indications of the persons intentinos (you cannot tell whether or not they are lieing) and also you cannot survey the boxes. Also after a pre-designated time you will be able to recieve what ever is in the box you chose. Now to get Box A you will have to work at it. The work will be hard but also self-satisfying. To get Box B you will not have to do anything. Now when you recieve whatever you get from the box you chose you will also see what was in the other box.

Now this also like choosing between following christianity and being an athesists. To be a christian (a true follower of christ) you will have to do many things. But also what you do will be self-satisfying and at least in its purists forms will NEVER bring harm to another. To be an atheists you don't have to do anything. Not to say a atheisists can't do the samethings a christain can, but to be one you don't have to. Now by making the choice between being an atheists and christian hwo is god sendign you to hell? Also keep in mind that in truth hell is not fire, brimstone, and a red man with a pitchfork but only being in the complete absences of God (If you have seen it the episode of "the Simpsons" where Bart loses his soul).

I hope this helps you better understand the heaven hell thing.

Russikan

11-24-2005, 05:43 PM

I have an analogy to explain this.

Imagine two boxes for simplicity lets call them box A and box B. Now a person tells you that box A has a really great gift and Box B has nothing special in it. Lets also assume you have no real indications of the persons intentinos (you cannot tell whether or not they are lieing) and also you cannot survey the boxes. Also after a pre-designated time you will be able to recieve what ever is in the box you chose. Now to get Box A you will have to work at it. The work will be hard but also self-satisfying. To get Box B you will not have to do anything. Now when you recieve whatever you get from the box you chose you will also see what was in the other box.

Now this also like choosing between following christianity and being an athesists. To be a christian (a true follower of christ) you will have to do many things. But also what you do will be self-satisfying and at least in its purists forms will NEVER bring harm to another. To be an atheists you don't have to do anything. Not to say a atheisists can't do the samethings a christain can, but to be one you don't have to. Now by making the choice between being an atheists and christian hwo is god sendign you to hell? Also keep in mind that in truth hell is not fire, brimstone, and a red man with a pitchfork but only being in the complete absences of God (If you have seen it the episode of "the Simpsons" where Bart loses his soul).

I hope this helps you better understand the heaven hell thing.

So Hell is Earth? Okay by me.

Scaryclouds

11-24-2005, 08:52 PM

So Hell is Earth? Okay by me.

I never said that. Please point pout where I implied that idea so I can correct it.

Russikan

11-24-2005, 08:56 PM

I never said that. Please point pout where I implied that idea so I can correct it.

You said Hell is the absence of God. I was being flippant.

Void Image

11-25-2005, 06:39 PM

Now by making the choice between being an atheists and christian hwo is god sendign you to hell? Also keep in mind that in truth hell is not fire, brimstone, and a red man with a pitchfork but only being in the complete absences of God (If you have seen it the episode of "the Simpsons" where Bart loses his soul).

I hope this helps you better understand the heaven hell thing.

Thanks for the response scaryclouds.

As for your question, look at why you are making this choice. (assuming God does exist and he created us) You are offered this choice because God created you in the first place. You never asked to be created. So now you have two choices, as you said. One, you get to be with him as long as you are obedient. Two, you don't get to be with him because you don't agree with him. He put you here in the first place, and now he's saying that without any evidence, you have to choose whether or not to believe in him or else he abandons you? Why? Because sinners can't exist in heaven? He created heaven. He is all powerful. He could wash away your sin upon death regardless of your personal beliefs while alive. He can do anything. He can make HIS creations eternally happy no matter what they did in life with nothing more than a thought. At the very least, he could simply wish away those that would instead by sent to Hell. He does not. Hell is punishment, the bible makes that clear. Punishment for looking at the evidence on this world that he himself must have created, with the very intention of concealing his presence from his creations..and choosing not to believe in him.

Churlant

11-25-2005, 06:41 PM

According to the Bible, "all liars" are going to Hell - period. Any literalist perspective must accept the fact that every one of us will be burning quite soon.

Have a nice day.

-JC

JoeR

11-25-2005, 07:21 PM

Now, where's the resident forum fan of Voltaire, Duo...? ;)

I must have read Candide 3 times in high school. Great book.

sub_zer0

11-25-2005, 09:10 PM

According to the Bible, "all liars" are going to Hell - period. Any literalist perspective must accept the fact that every one of us will be burning quite soon.

Have a nice day.

-JC

Now, Churlant... where does it say such a thing?

sub_zer0

11-25-2005, 09:18 PM

As for your question, look at why you are making this choice. (assuming God does exist and he created us) You are offered this choice because God created you in the first place. You never asked to be created. So now you have two choices, as you said. One, you get to be with him as long as you are obedient. Two, you don't get to be with him because you don't agree with him. He put you here in the first place, and now he's saying that without any evidence, you have to choose whether or not to believe in him or else he abandons you? Why?

I am VERY thankful just to know my Creator. Without any evidence...? You can't say that while stating you assume God does exist and He created you. And anyway, CREATION is His proof.

Because sinners can't exist in heaven? He created heaven. He is all powerful. He could wash away your sin upon death regardless of your personal beliefs while alive.

Wrong, we are ALL sinners, every single one of us - we all go to Heaven or Hell as sinners. We are all judged. The difference is were you trying to do His will on earth or yours?

He can and does wash away all sins through His son Jesus Christ, all it takes is the acceptance of Christ and the act of asking for forgiveness for them.

He can do anything. He can make HIS creations eternally happy no matter what they did in life with nothing more than a thought.

He did, in the Garden of Eden they were eternally happy and always in Gods ultimate presence. Since Gods will is perfect they were and everything else was. Free will, letting His creation choose to be with Him (in His will) or not.

You see the only way to do what you describe is to not give free will to mankind in the first place. But by giving us our own free will we are able to say no I don't want to do Gods will I want to do my own. Sinning is putting yoruself before God.

And yes, I am sorry, but there are consequences and responsibilities you take on for sinning or choosing against Gods will in favor for your own. Which is why the world is the way it is. With sin it made us always succeptible to it. In the beginning it was not like that, they had a choice to sin or choose God. We do not have the benefit of that. We have to ask for forgiveness and the like.

At the very least, he could simply wish away those that would instead by sent to Hell. He does not. Hell is punishment, the bible makes that clear. Punishment for looking at the evidence on this world that he himself must have created, with the very intention of concealing his presence from his creations..and choosing not to believe in him.

The awesomeness of space the existence of life on only one planet. We are to know, through that, that creation was of something greater than ourselves.

Now if you cannot simply acknowledge God as creator and Christ as redeemer on earth, than yes you are to be judged. Now you have consequences or responsibilities for choosing your will over Gods. One with a relationship with Christ has a responsibility to not sin and try to do Gods will. Now we are all judged, me and you but the difference is monumental and to say the least sad. By staying faithful to God and His word and Son we get what we have been striving to do all along - Gods perfect will! I am sorry to say that yours becomes what you really didn't want at all. Your life requires no responsibilities such as mine - as in trying to do Gods will and whether you know it or not is setting you up just for that for all of eternity. After all it is what you wanted? You chose to do your will instead of Gods, and really that is Hell on earth whether you know it or not.

Scaryclouds

11-25-2005, 11:01 PM

Thanks for the response scaryclouds.

As for your question, look at why you are making this choice. (assuming God does exist and he created us) You are offered this choice because God created you in the first place. You never asked to be created. So now you have two choices, as you said. One, you get to be with him as long as you are obedient. Two, you don't get to be with him because you don't agree with him. He put you here in the first place, and now he's saying that without any evidence, you have to choose whether or not to believe in him or else he abandons you? Why? Because sinners can't exist in heaven? He created heaven. He is all powerful. He could wash away your sin upon death regardless of your personal beliefs while alive. He can do anything. He can make HIS creations eternally happy no matter what they did in life with nothing more than a thought. At the very least, he could simply wish away those that would instead by sent to Hell. He does not. Hell is punishment, the bible makes that clear. Punishment for looking at the evidence on this world that he himself must have created, with the very intention of concealing his presence from his creations..and choosing not to believe in him.

But that would be denying us the most basic right of all freedom of will. What I don't get is many atheists complain about God being childish because "he" would in some form send a person to hell. But then you demand God to remove such a choice. Personally I thank God for allowing me the choice of following him. It would not be a loving relationship. If we where forced to follow God there would be nothing we would be soulless puppets.

Also I don't see how being alive would influence one not to follow God. I know where you are trying to go with your argument but all the same I would consider it a good thing to be given the gift of life.

But irregardless whether you choose to believe or not by the standards of the bible if a person goes to hell its because like sub said he/she chose that path. God has infinite patience and even if you are on your death bed and you truly ask for God's forgiveness you shall go to heaven.

sub_zer0

11-25-2005, 11:10 PM

But that would be denying us the most basic right of all freedom of will. What I don't get is many atheists complain about God being childish because "he" would in some form send a person to hell. But then you demand God to remove such a choice. Personally I thank God for allowing me the choice of following him. It would not be a loving relationship. If we where forced to follow God there would be nothing we would be soulless puppets.

Also I don't see how being alive would influence one not to follow God. I know where you are trying to go with your argument but all the same I would consider it a good thing to be given the gift of life.

But irregardless whether you choose to believe or not by the standards of the bible if a person goes to hell its because like sub said he/she chose that path. God has infinite patience and even if you are on your death bed and you truly ask for God's forgiveness you shall go to heaven.

Most definately. Another thing about those responsibilities people have on earth (such as strive to do Gods will), some do not do them. The ones who do them - ultimately will have it in a place called Heaven. The ones who did not try to do Gods will - ultimately won't have it in a place called Hell.

Churlant

11-26-2005, 12:50 PM

Now, Churlant... where does it say such a thing?

Eh? You serious? Haven't you memorized the Bible yet? :D

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death
- Revelation 21:8

"All Liars"... pretty definite ;)

-JC

Void Image

11-26-2005, 04:48 PM

I am VERY thankful just to know my Creator. Without any evidence...? You can't say that while stating you assume God does exist and He created you. And anyway, CREATION is His proof.

Sub_zero, this is the umpteenth you've told me that creation is proof. For the umpteenth time I will respond by saying creation is not proof of a God. Plain and simple. I can easily say that while assuming God does exist because it's true. I think it's been made rather obvious to you that you can't prove God exists, because if you could, there would be no reason to debate it, as EVERYONE would know. Since I'm assuming God created everything, he must have deliberately made it so no one can ever know for sure if he exists.

Wrong, we are ALL sinners, every single one of us - we all go to Heaven or Hell as sinners. We are all judged. The difference is were you trying to do His will on earth or yours?

So you were created to do God's will, and if you don't he will abandon you and punish you for eternity? You say God gave me free will, yet I'm not allowed to do my will on Earth?

He can and does wash away all sins through His son Jesus Christ, all it takes is the acceptance of Christ and the act of asking for forgiveness for them.

Again, I have no proof Jesus ever existed. I have no proof God exists. I consider myself a good person. So I have no reason to ask forgiveness for anything. I don't understand why you have to ask him to forgive you? If you loves you so much, what's the point? Do you abandon your children if they don't ask for forgiveness when they make a mistake?

He did, in the Garden of Eden they were eternally happy and always in Gods ultimate presence. Since Gods will is perfect they were and everything else was. Free will, letting His creation choose to be with Him (in His will) or not.

This came up in another thread. As God's intentions were for humans to cover the earth, he obviously didn't plan for them to remain in the garden of eden forever. He is all knowing, therefore he knew what would happen to Adam and Eve before he ever put the tree there. He intended for them to eat from the tree, because the earth cannot be populated by immortal humans. This was God's will, and it is perfect, so how was it sin? And how can he punish the entire human race for this event?

You see the only way to do what you describe is to not give free will to mankind in the first place. But by giving us our own free will we are able to say no I don't want to do Gods will I want to do my own. Sinning is putting yoruself before God.

You seem to be confusing free will with something else. Listen, if I was created into a perfect paradise WITH free will, and God ASKED me face to face if I could either be with him here or go live in hell, there would be no second thoughts. You don't need a subtle, sneaky test or a world wherein there exists no evidence of his existance other than a book full of holes and contradictions, to have free will.

And yes, I am sorry, but there are consequences and responsibilities you take on for sinning or choosing against Gods will in favor for your own. Which is why the world is the way it is. With sin it made us always succeptible to it. In the beginning it was not like that, they had a choice to sin or choose God. We do not have the benefit of that. We have to ask for forgiveness and the like.

Why are you apologizing? Because it's cruel and sadistic? Why do we not have that benefit? Because thousands and thousands of years ago, a woman ate some fruit from the wrong tree?

The awesomeness of space the existence of life on only one planet. We are to know, through that, that creation was of something greater than ourselves.

..We've only recently begun to understand the sheer magnitude of the universe that surrounds us. The trillions upon trillions upon trillions of stars that make up this seemingly infinite cosmos. We have also learned very recently, that many of these stars have planets of their own orbiting them. To say that life exists on only one planet is not only arrogant, but it just doesn't make sense mathematically.

Now if you cannot simply acknowledge God as creator and Christ as redeemer on earth, than yes you are to be judged. Now you have consequences or responsibilities for choosing your will over Gods. One with a relationship with Christ has a responsibility to not sin and try to do Gods will. Now we are all judged, me and you but the difference is monumental and to say the least sad. By staying faithful to God and His word and Son we get what we have been striving to do all along - Gods perfect will! I am sorry to say that yours becomes what you really didn't want at all. Your life requires no responsibilities such as mine - as in trying to do Gods will and whether you know it or not is setting you up just for that for all of eternity. After all it is what you wanted? You chose to do your will instead of Gods, and really that is Hell on earth whether you know it or not.

You aren't debating sub_zero, you're preaching. There isn't even a point to this post. You are just repeating what you've been saying since you began posting here at whistlestopper. If you don't have anything to add to a debate, don't even waste the energy.

sub_zer0

11-26-2005, 05:33 PM

Sub_zero, this is the umpteenth you've told me that creation is proof. For the umpteenth time I will respond by saying creation is not proof of a God. Plain and simple. I can easily say that while assuming God does exist because it's true. I think it's been made rather obvious to you that you can't prove God exists, because if you could, there would be no reason to debate it, as EVERYONE would know. Since I'm assuming God created everything, he must have deliberately made it so no one can ever know for sure if he exists.

I know for sure He exists through creation.

So you were created to do God's will, and if you don't he will abandon you and punish you for eternity? You say God gave me free will, yet I'm not allowed to do my will on Earth?

And if you don't do Gods will you will not be in Gods will for eternity, simple as that. You are allowed to anything on earth.

Again, I have no proof Jesus ever existed. I have no proof God exists. I consider myself a good person. So I have no reason to ask forgiveness for anything. I don't understand why you have to ask him to forgive you? If you loves you so much, what's the point? Do you abandon your children if they don't ask for forgiveness when they make a mistake?

Jesus existed... Jesus is proof as well as creation as well as 2.1 billion people. A good person doesn't mean anything if you don't believe in God and Christ.

Sure you do, you have either lied, stole, murdered, etc or something in your life, which is against Gods will.

I ask Him to forgive me because that is how I am to get the guilt of sinning off of me and draw closer each time to Him. He loves you so much that you can ask for fogiveness. He NEVER abandons anyone for that fact alone. You abandon Him when you sin and don't ask for forgiveness.

This came up in another thread. As God's intentions were for humans to cover the earth, he obviously didn't plan for them to remain in the garden of eden forever. He is all knowing, therefore he knew what would happen to Adam and Eve before he ever put the tree there. He intended for them to eat from the tree, because the earth cannot be populated by immortal humans. This was God's will, and it is perfect, so how was it sin? And how can he punish the entire human race for this event?

The Garden was a place in Eden, remember, Eden could have been what God called the world in the beginning. He knew that Adam and Eve were going to sin, doesn't mean they had to. He intended them to eat from the tree, He also intended for them to not eat from the tree. It was their choice.

Of course the earth can be populated by immortal humans. It was Gods will for Adam and Eve to be forever with Him. He did not punish anybody, it is the result of sinning, or not doing Gods perfect will.

You seem to be confusing free will with something else. Listen, if I was created into a perfect paradise WITH free will, and God ASKED me face to face if I could either be with him here or go live in hell, there would be no second thoughts.

That is exactly what happened to Adam and Eve, God appeared and said "Do not eat" but they did anyway. See what happenes even though God is right in front of you? It doesn't matter if He is there or not, (even though He is always around), it matters what you do with what He said to do.

Why are you apologizing? Because it's cruel and sadistic? Why do we not have that benefit? Because thousands and thousands of years ago, a woman ate some fruit from the wrong tree?

Because you need to accept something greater than yourself. You're creator, until then you are lost forever.

..We've only recently begun to understand the sheer magnitude of the universe that surrounds us. The trillions upon trillions upon trillions of stars that make up this seemingly infinite cosmos. We have also learned very recently, that many of these stars have planets of their own orbiting them. To say that life exists on only one planet is not only arrogant, but it just doesn't make sense mathematically.

Until we find life on another planet, we are the ONLY life in the universe.

You aren't debating sub_zero, you're preaching. There isn't even a point to this post. You are just repeating what you've been saying since you began posting here at whistlestopper. If you don't have anything to add to a debate, don't even waste the energy.

I have never been debating. This isn't a debate to me, it is a fight for your heart for God. And yes there is a point, read it again. It is saying you chose not to be with God, so ultimately that is what you get in Hell. I choose to be with God so ultimately that is what I get in Heaven.

That is why it is all about submitting your life to God, because it is His will that is perfect.

sub_zer0

11-26-2005, 05:41 PM

Eh? You serious? Haven't you memorized the Bible yet? :D

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death
- Revelation 21:8

"All Liars"... pretty definite ;)

-JC

You are not understanding it properly Churlant. That is talking about those who are unrepentant they are categorized as that. It is talking about unbelievers, not talking about those who have repented... come on now.

Soc.Dem.

11-26-2005, 05:43 PM

I have never been debating. This isn't a debate to me, it is a fight for your heart for God. And yes there is a point, read it again. It is saying you chose not to be with God, so ultimately that is what you get in Hell. I choose to be with God so ultimately that is what I get in Heaven.

"Do as I say! Believe as I believe! Or else...!!!"

I think we can safely say that you are loosing the fight for our hearts...

Soc.Dem.

11-26-2005, 05:45 PM

If God want everyone to believe in him, why does it not reveal himself directly, in the flesh to each person individually?

sub_zer0

11-26-2005, 05:58 PM

If God want everyone to believe in him, why does it not reveal himself directly, in the flesh to each person individually?

He has to EVERYBODY, His name was Jesus Christ.

And God does affect every single person who truely wants to find Him with the Holy Spirit.

Soc.Dem.

11-26-2005, 06:08 PM

He has to EVERYBODY, His name was Jesus Christ.

Eh, no, Jesus does not apperar in the flesh to each person individually.

Reading about a person in a 1900 year old book, and betting on that the version of this person's life told in the Bibel is more correct than for example the version in the Koran, does not equal meeting that person in the flesh, face to face.

Dangerrmouse

11-26-2005, 06:27 PM

Jesus did conspire to steal a horse, though...

Luke 19, verses 29 -

19:29 And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples,
19:30 Saying, Go ye into the village over against you; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither.
19:31 And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.
19:32 And they that were sent went their way, and found even as he had said unto them.
19:33 And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt?
19:34 And they said, The Lord hath need of him.
19:35 And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.

Conspiracy, coercion, Grand theft colt... whatever next?

heel31ok

11-26-2005, 07:00 PM

heel31ok

11-26-2005, 07:03 PM

heel31ok

11-26-2005, 07:05 PM

Eh, no, Jesus does not apperar in the flesh to each person individually.

Reading about a person in a 1900 year old book, and betting on that the version of this person's life told in the Bibel is more correct than for example the version in the Koran, does not equal meeting that person in the flesh, face to face.
Like so many you are missing the Holy Spirit, who was the key to sub's answer.

Churlant

11-26-2005, 07:16 PM

You are not understanding it properly Churlant. That is talking about those who are unrepentant they are categorized as that. It is talking about unbelievers, not talking about those who have repented... come on now.

I'm sorry? Hey, either you take the Bible literally, or you don't. The verse clearly states that "all liars" (not "some" or the "unrepentant" liars) will burn in the lake of Hell.

:shrug:

It's your Bible. Deal with it. :)

-JC

Russikan

11-26-2005, 07:16 PM

Am I the only one who thinks that sub's version of Hell is better then his heaven?

And heel/sub why doesn't God just give the Holy Spirit to everyone so that they can read a book which is largely indistinguishable from many other books and believe it. Why do the majority of people not have the Holy Spirit? For that matter. Why is the Holy Spirit most often present in people who grew up telling being told that the Bible was true? Why does it rarely manifest itself in Muslims?

Soc.Dem.

11-26-2005, 07:20 PM

It is more like he does not force you to be with Him.If you choose to have nothing to do with God He will not force you to when the end comes.so obviously they do want to go there if they make that choice in their life.

How can we choose to be or not to be with God, if we don't even know that he exists?

Soc.Dem.

11-26-2005, 07:22 PM

Like so many you are missing the Holy Spirit, who was the key to sub's answer.

Well, if God really wanted everyone to be saved, he wouldn't make it dependant on having some "spirit", he would instead appear to each person physically, so that no one could doubt his experience....

Senor Herberto

11-27-2005, 02:44 AM

Yet it you don't love him, you will suffer eternally in a hell of his own creation.

seperation from God is suffering. hell is literally 'some place where God is not near'. we in the modern era view hell as dante's inferno. believe. hell is bad. your own choices walk you there spiritually. you cannot take a step to the right and move left, unless you are carried. God will not carry you unless you ask.

and so even if there are apparent problems and evils associated with this world, they are really part of a greater underlying order and goodness.

God loves you so much He will not force you to love Him. but His justice reigns. repentance and forgiveness are good. God's healing power is infinite. God's love is infinite. God can heal all wounds and God performs many miracles among the faithful. The underlying goodness is God's divine will and love.

So when he sends you to hell, and you obviously don't WANT to go there, isn't this a violation of free will?

can you present yourself before God? can You look at God's pinky toe even with your eyes closed, in the moral state you are in? i know of not many who can. God is living. You must earn His favor by your faith and love and goodness, acceptance of God's savior, Who brings repentance when you forget to love.

Senor Herberto

11-27-2005, 02:49 AM

Well, if God really wanted everyone to be saved, he wouldn't make it dependant on having some "spirit", he would instead appear to each person physically, so that no one could doubt his experience....

in a way life is a test. Do you care about God?

eugene40

11-27-2005, 02:53 AM

in a way life is a test. Do you care about God?

Not a bit. Do I pass?

Senor Herberto

11-27-2005, 02:54 AM

why would you expect to pass? do you love? do you accept and reflect God's infinite love for you?

even dust reflects light that passes through the air so you can see.

eugene40

11-27-2005, 03:02 AM

why would you expect to pass? do you love? do you accept and reflect God's infinite love for you?
Well I was being silly I don't believe there is a test to begin with so really it wouldn't matter. I do love,,, I love my mother, father, sister, nephew.. friends and that is about it. and I don't accept that there actually is a christian god so there would be no infinite love to begin with.

even dust reflects light that passes through the air so you can see.

Very true,,, but that has nothing to do with christian mythology.

Senor Herberto

11-27-2005, 03:07 AM

what about the mythology of existance? are you conscious?

how do you explain these wonders of being?

eugene40

11-27-2005, 03:09 AM

what about the mythology of existance? are you conscious?

how do you explain these wonders of being?

Descartes: I think therefore I am.

That was easy,, next.

sub_zer0

11-27-2005, 03:25 AM

Am I the only one who thinks that sub's version of Hell is better then his heaven?

My heaven and hell are the ones spoke about in the Bible.

And heel/sub why doesn't God just give the Holy Spirit to everyone so that they can read a book which is largely indistinguishable from many other books and believe it.

Because it means more if you, yourself make the choice.

Why do the majority of people not have the Holy Spirit?

All it takes is the acceptance of Christ into ones heart truely, and faithfully in the Lord God.

For that matter. Why is the Holy Spirit most often present in people who grew up telling being told that the Bible was true? Why does it rarely manifest itself in Muslims?

All it takes is the acceptance of Christ into ones heart truely, and faithfully in the Lord God.

sub_zer0

11-27-2005, 03:28 AM

How can we choose to be or not to be with God, if we don't even know that he exists?

I am saying He does! It takes a leap of faith, just as I had to do to believe in God.

sub_zer0

11-27-2005, 03:31 AM

"Do as I say! Believe as I believe! Or else...!!!"

I think we can safely say that you are loosing the fight for our hearts...

All Hell is, is without God for eternity... why do you say "or else"? It is what you wanted on earth!

sub_zer0

11-27-2005, 03:43 AM

I'm sorry? Hey, either you take the Bible literally, or you don't. The verse clearly states that "all liars" (not "some" or the "unrepentant" liars) will burn in the lake of Hell.

:shrug:

It's your Bible. Deal with it. :)

-JC

It does say unbelieving - which is what I mean by unrepentant. I see that passage and realize I need to examine my relationship with Christ and ask for forgivenes to be quite honest.

Dangerrmouse

11-27-2005, 08:56 AM

Your arrogance in reinterpreting your God's supposed word is parallelled by fundamentalists of all religious bents.

Russikan

11-27-2005, 01:34 PM

I am saying He does! It takes a leap of faith, just as I had to do to believe in God.

See, this makes me happy. If Hell is the absence of God, then it's just like Earth, so it turns out all of us heathens get to live forever on Earth, or something very similar. You just removed the only possible downside in not believing in God. Even if I'm wrong, I still get the best deal.

Scaryclouds

11-27-2005, 01:52 PM

See, this makes me happy. If Hell is the absence of God, then it's just like Earth, so it turns out all of us heathens get to live forever on Earth, or something very similar. You just removed the only possible downside in not believing in God. Even if I'm wrong, I still get the best deal.

Wrogn god does have a presence on Earth. Can I tell you what Hell woudl be like? No, but I do know that not a single person would like it.

Scaryclouds

11-27-2005, 01:55 PM

Descartes: I think therefore I am.

That was easy,, next.

But how does you actually think? That is what makes me conscious but not a rock when we are both made up of nothing but atoms?

Russikan

11-27-2005, 02:35 PM

Wrogn god does have a presence on Earth. Can I tell you what Hell woudl be like? No, but I do know that not a single person would like it.

How about I tell you when I get there. And if I don't show up, well then I guess this is the only life you get.

Churlant

11-27-2005, 02:54 PM

It does say unbelieving - which is what I mean by unrepentant. I see that passage and realize I need to examine my relationship with Christ and ask for forgivenes to be quite honest.

Sure the quote says unbelievers, but this is an inclusion. You'll notice the verse is covering the bases, so to speak. It doesn't say "all liars who are unbelievers", does it? Here, let me help:

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death"

Now you may want to interpret this to mean something it doesn't... yeah, you can lie, but all you gotta do is ask Christ for forgiveness, blah blah blah.

Sorry, doesn't spin that way. The statement is quite clear - anyone and everyone who fulfills one of the descriptions above - from the fearful and the unbelieving to all liars - are going to Hell - Period.

Kind of fun, really. You'll have lots of company down there. :)

-JC

eugene40

11-27-2005, 03:23 PM

But how does you actually think? That is what makes me conscious but not a rock when we are both made up of nothing but atoms?

Synapses in the brain. And we are a little bit more complex then a rock... (at least some of us) We might be made up of the same atoms but ours are in a more complex array then a rock or a tree or anything like that.

Soc.Dem.

11-27-2005, 03:29 PM

in a way life is a test. Do you care about God?

If God loves us and wants us to be with him, why does he need to test us?

Soc.Dem.

11-27-2005, 03:31 PM

All it takes is the acceptance of Christ into ones heart truely, and faithfully in the Lord God.

You're not answering the questions at all! You're simply repeating a mantra.

Soc.Dem.

11-27-2005, 03:34 PM

I am saying He does! It takes a leap of faith, just as I had to do to believe in God.

Oh, you are saying that he does!

Now that makes all the difference! I guess I have no choice but believing now! :rolleyes:

eugene40

11-27-2005, 03:41 PM

Oh, you are saying that he does!

Now that makes all the difference! I guess I have no choice but believing now! :rolleyes:

With these kind of "solid arguments" how could you not? :rolleyes: :D

sub_zer0

11-27-2005, 08:10 PM

Sure the quote says unbelievers, but this is an inclusion. You'll notice the verse is covering the bases, so to speak. It doesn't say "all liars who are unbelievers", does it? Here, let me help:

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death"

Now you may want to interpret this to mean something it doesn't... yeah, you can lie, but all you gotta do is ask Christ for forgiveness, blah blah blah.

Sorry, doesn't spin that way. The statement is quite clear - anyone and everyone who fulfills one of the descriptions above - from the fearful and the unbelieving to all liars - are going to Hell - Period.

Kind of fun, really. You'll have lots of company down there. :)

-JC

Again Churlant, the believers and unbelievers are CLEARLY defined before that verse. Now you are to take it as "All liars" of the unbelievers are going to Hell... it is just an emphasis on lying, warning you... You can always ask Christ for forgivness, yes Churlant.