Gods Laws

[Loch]

God created the universe and with it a series of universal laws.
To prove these laws wrong would undo the very fabric of reality and the universe would ceace to exsist.

[The Big Bog]

Which few laws did you have in mind?

[Strel]

How is a being whose laws can be disproven worthy of worship?

[The Big Bog]

I'm still trying to figure out which laws s/he's talking about. Is it possible to prove that there are flaws in gravity? Like a bug in its programming somehow?

[eugene40]

I'm still trying to figure out which laws s/he's talking about. Is it possible to prove that there are flaws in gravity? Like a bug in its programming somehow?


These laws:


Don't stick your finger in the light socket.

Don't listen to Celine Dion records while driving, in fact don't listen to her at all.

Gravity is god's little string tied to your arse. and it is infalible,,, and Jordan is the Devil's emissary because he can defy god's will momentarily.

The chicken came first, because on the 30th day god said "let there be chickens" on the 31st,,,, "there let be hot sauce"

There is a lot more,,, that is just the general idea.... Oh and when in doubt "it is god's will"

Which doesn't really explain anything... but hey the world is still flat and we are the century of the universe right? Amazing how some have come so far,, yet few still lag behind....... Way behind.

[The Big Bog]

These laws:


Don't stick your finger in the light socket.

Don't listen to Celine Dion records while driving, in fact don't listen to her at all.

Gravity is god's little string tied to your arse. and it is infalible,,, and Jordan is the Devil's emissary because he can defy god's will momentarily.

The chicken came first, because on the 30th day god said "let there be chickens" on the 31st,,,, "there let be hot sauce"

There is a lot more,,, that is just the general idea.... Oh and when in doubt "it is god's will"

Which doesn't really explain anything... but hey the world is still flat and we are the century of the universe right? Amazing how some have come so far,, yet few still lag behind....... Way behind.
Oh those aren't laws, those are just some folksy superstitions!

Maybe Loch's talking about Creation. If God created the heavens and the earth 6,000 years ago and we find out that the universe is actually billions of years old (which we have, haven't we?) then why hasn't Loch's assertion come true? Why hasn't the universe ceased to exist?

Maybe the universe did cease to exist and I'm like the astronaut at the end of 2001 and you guys only exist in my imagination because I've just fallen through the cracks somehow into this cosmic bubble. If that's the case then screw all this -- I'm going to go have a beer and drink 'til it's over.

(This is why I hate talking religion and philosophy -- it always ends with me giving up and wanting to go drink myself into a stupor.)

[Dangerrmouse]

Which laws? Which God? Is the "feild" (sic) in your location spelled correctly?

[Bad Penny]

Oh you better watch out,
You better not cry,
You'd better not pout, I'm tellin' you why,
Jesus Christ is coming to town.

[towski]

Oh you better watch out,
You better not cry,
You'd better not pout, I'm tellin' you why,
Jesus Christ is coming to town.

That's funny. I actually have a joking theory with my girlfriend that Jesus and Santa are actually the same person, because you can't have 2 beings with that kind of power. Ever seen them in the same room together?

Anyway. Around the holidays, I tend to lapse into referring to this deity by the nom de plume Jesus Claus. That, or Santa Christ.

Carry on.

[mataj]

God created the universe and with it a series of universal laws.
To prove these laws wrong would undo the very fabric of reality and the universe would ceace to exsist.Undoing the fabric of reality, and causing universe to cease to exist? O, that is an excellent idea. I wonder why no one has thought of it before. I must tackle it right away! :devil:

[Dangerrmouse]

If it's that easy to unpick the fabric of reality, He/She should have used a lockstitch!

[sub_zer0]

God created the universe and with it a series of universal laws.
To prove these laws wrong would undo the very fabric of reality and the universe would ceace to exsist.

No laws have been broken. God created the laws, He cannot break them true. So then if God made the laws, did man interpret them correctly?

[Duo_Maxwell]

No laws have been broken. God created the laws, He cannot break them true. So then if God made the laws, did man interpret them correctly?

Under your logic, God is not all powerful and has limits. You just stated that God cannot break his own laws.

I could sail entire galaxies through the holes in your religious beliefs with hexillions of light years worth of distance in clearance.

[Art of War]

Under your logic, God is not all powerful and has limits. You just stated that God cannot break his own laws.

I could sail entire galaxies through the holes in your religious beliefs with hexillions of light years worth of distance in clearance.

Well you do enter into the 'if God is all powerful can he make a stone so heavy he can not lift?' paradox. The simple answer is that God is not all powerful but he is powerful enough. Think of it in terms of calculus limits, nothing can equal infinity but things can approach it, the power of God is not infinite but it approaches infinity. What I'm thinking Sub Zero is refering to is the natural laws of the universe. Being that God is infailible the laws he created are perfect and any breach of those laws would prove otherwise thus God can not break those laws. The exact thing I was speaking of in the creationism thread and logical proof that a great flood simply could not have occurred. A point I'm still waiting for a reply on.

[mataj]

No laws have been broken. God created the laws, He cannot break them true. So then if God made the laws, did man interpret them correctly?Man interprets the god's laws according to the current political needs.

It's all in the interpretation.

[Art of War]

Man interprets the god's laws according to the current political needs.

It's all in the interpretation.

Unless you take the philosophy that the laws of science are the laws of God. It takes some experimenting but eventually there is little interpretation.

[Duo_Maxwell]

But art of war, that belief of a powerful God runs contrary to the idea of a omnipotent Christian God.

[Richard Roma]

God created the universe and with it a series of universal laws.
To prove these laws wrong would undo the very fabric of reality and the universe would ceace to exsist.

I am not really sure what you are talking about. God did not create any laws. Everything is of God's will. We label some things to be laws like scientific law and so forth. God did create a set of laws for us to follow though I don't think you are talking about those laws. So what exactly are you talking about?

[::Major_Baker::]

I am not really sure what you are talking about. God did not create any laws. Everything is of God's will. We label some things to be laws like scientific law and so forth. God did create a set of laws for us to follow though I don't think you are talking about those laws. So what exactly are you talking about?
just have faith, richard, it will all become apparent some day.

[Richard Roma]

Well you do enter into the 'if God is all powerful can he make a stone so heavy he can not lift?' paradox. The simple answer is that God is not all powerful but he is powerful enough. Think of it in terms of calculus limits, nothing can equal infinity but things can approach it, the power of God is not infinite but it approaches infinity. What I'm thinking Sub Zero is refering to is the natural laws of the universe. Being that God is infailible the laws he created are perfect and any breach of those laws would prove otherwise thus God can not break those laws. The exact thing I was speaking of in the creationism thread and logical proof that a great flood simply could not have occurred. A point I'm still waiting for a reply on.

Can you explain that paradox in another way? God is all powerful, but I dont see how the weight of a stone fits in to that description. Heavy is something we understand because God wills it.

[::Major_Baker::]

Can you explain that paradox in another way? God is all powerful, but I dont see how the weight of a stone fits in to that description. Heavy is something we understand because God wills it.
gravity wills it.

[Richard Roma]

gravity wills it.
Gravity exist because God wills it

[::Major_Baker::]

Gravity exist because God wills it
oh ok, could you cite that scipture to me please?

[Art of War]

Gravity exist because God wills it

Gravity is a law of God. For God to contradict it would be for God to contradicti himself.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Gravity exist because God wills it

So things exist because God wills them?

[Richard Roma]

So things exist because God wills them?
Things are things because God wills them to be. Existance is a will of God

[Duo_Maxwell]

Things are things because God wills them to be. Existance is a will of God

Good. I was hoping you would say that. Therefore evil exists because God wills it. Everything bad exists because God wills it, including Sin.

So much for a benevolent God, much less a perfect one.

Your belief has even bigger holes then Sub_zero's.

[Richard Roma]

Gravity is a law of God. For God to contradict it would be for God to contradicti himself.

How is that a contradiction? Gravity is not a law of God, gravity is willed by God. We see so much repetition of response from the same acts that we have labled it a scientific law. But just because the sun goes up in the day and down at night every day (and has for some time now) does not mean that it will do the same tomorrow. It is of God's will that it does what it does.

[::Major_Baker::]

How is that a contradiction? Gravity is not a law of God, gravity is willed by God. We see so much repetition of response from the same acts that we have labled it a scientific law. But just because the sun goes up in the day and down at night every day (and has for some time now) does not mean that it will do the same tomorrow. It is of God's will that it does what it does.
amazing.

[Richard Roma]

Good. I was hoping you would say that. Therefore evil exists because God wills it. Everything bad exists because God wills it, including Sin.

So much for a benevolent God, much less a perfect one.

Your belief has even bigger holes then Sub_zero's.

Evil does exist because God wills it. I dont understand, do you think you tricked me into something here. God gave us free will and with that the ability to sin. Even though we have the free will to sin our ability to do so was of God's will.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Evil does exist because God wills it. I dont understand, do you think you tricked me into something here. God gave us free will and with that the ability to sin. Even though we have the free will to sin our ability to do so was of God's will.

So how can God be perfect if it is the origin of all evil? If God wills all, then God willed numerous disasters that killed thousands, terrible diseases that killed innocents in the millions, horrible famines that killed infants, and it willed every mass murderer that ever existed. Under your logic: God is responsible for the gas chambers of the Nazis.

[Richard Roma]

So how can God be perfect if it is the origin of all evil? If God wills all, then God willed numerous disasters that killed thousands, terrible diseases that killed innocents in the millions, horrible famines that killed infants, and it willed every mass murderer that ever existed. Under your logic: God is responsible for the gas chambers of the Nazis.

Well, no. As far as what people do to other people - we are given free will to make such choices. So God did not will us to hurt others, but allowed us to do so - I see a difference even if you dont. Disasters may have been willed or they may have been allowed - that I dont know. But our life here is of the will of God. It is for his to give and take. We know that our life here is temporary and with God it is permanent - that is why it is so important to be WITH God. So to say that it is horrible that someone died in a disaster is not necessarily true. Horrible for us, yes, but if they died of "natural causes" is that any less horrible for us. I don't think so. But if God wills it then it is good.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Well, no. As far as what people do to other people - we are given free will to make such choices.

But God willed the mass murderers into being and God being all knowing knew what they would do, but it still willed them anyways. Therefore God is responsible for the murder of millions. Hard to be benevolent when you're responsible for the gassing, butchering, shooting, etc of millions.

So God did not will us to hurt others, but allowed us to do so - I see a difference even if you dont.

How is that any different? It willed us with the capacity, and in some cases, the desire to hurt others. How can a benevolent God do such a thing?

Disasters may have been willed or they may have been allowed

You just said that things exist because God wills them. Therefore unless you would like to contridict yourself, every natural disaster (if not every disease, disaster and horrible accident) is the will of God. God willed the death of billions. And it is the root of all Evil. God is EVIL by creation.

But if God wills it then it is good.

I'm ignoring the religious garbage. If Gods will it, then it is good? Therefore Satan and all evil are no longer considered evil and are now Good.

Once again, you have more holes in your beliefs then Sub_zero.

[Art of War]

How is that a contradiction? Gravity is not a law of God, gravity is willed by God. We see so much repetition of response from the same acts that we have labled it a scientific law. But just because the sun goes up in the day and down at night every day (and has for some time now) does not mean that it will do the same tomorrow. It is of God's will that it does what it does.

When God created the universe he created everything. Including the laws which govern the flow of matter. God being an infailible being created perfect laws from the start there is no need for God to change these laws ever. God's will can be seen in natural law. God wills matter to behave in a certain way and he has willed it since the dawn of time. To contradict God's will is impossible even for God himself because it would prove him to be failible.

[Richard Roma]

But God willed the mass murderers into being and God being all knowing knew what they would do, but it still willed them anyways. Therefore God is responsible for the murder of millions. Hard to be benevolent when you're responsible for the gassing, butchering, shooting, etc of millions..

You forgot that God allowed his only son to be murdered. I guess you forgot the reason too.



How is that any different? It willed us with the capacity, and in some cases, the desire to hurt others. How can a benevolent God do such a thing?

He gave us free will, and he allowed the consequences of such.



You just said that things exist because God wills them. Therefore unless you would like to contridict yourself, every natural disaster (if not every disease, disaster and horrible accident) is the will of God. God willed the death of billions. And it is the root of all Evil. God is EVIL by creation.

What I mean is that, as we know it there is a reaction for every action. God wills whatever and the result is Earth and plate techtonics and of course people and then development and the earthquakes and then mass destruction. While God's will could be for all of us to live in perfect harmony here that has not been his plan for he allowed certain things to happen. Why? I dont know.



I'm ignoring the religious garbage. If Gods will it, then it is good? Therefore Satan and all evil are no longer considered evil and are now Good.

Once again, you have more holes in your beliefs then Sub_zero.[/QUOTE]

[Strel]

amazing.


Yep. It left me speechless too.


I'm taking bets that the Sun will rise in the East tomorrow. Line forms on the left. I have found that I am a remarkable predictor of God's will where natural, regular phenomena are concerned, so be warned!

[Richard Roma]

When God created the universe he created everything. Including the laws which govern the flow of matter. God being an infailible being created perfect laws from the start there is no need for God to change these laws ever. God's will can be seen in natural law. God wills matter to behave in a certain way and he has willed it since the dawn of time. To contradict God's will is impossible even for God himself because it would prove him to be failible.

No, I dont see it that way. Are you my old biology teacher (Dr. Aliff) because he liked to use that same argument.

[Richard Roma]

Yep. It left me speechless too.


I'm taking bets that the Sun will rise in the East tomorrow. Line forms on the left. I have found that I am a remarkable predictor of God's will where natural, regular phenomena are concerned, so be warned!

I see the sarcasm because you are laying it on so thick. I use the sun example because it was a lesson from my old philosophy class that has stuck with me. Im sorry if it left you with a bad tastes in your mouth.

[Art of War]

No, I dont see it that way. Are you my old biology teacher (Dr. Aliff) because he liked to use that same argument.

:eek: :eek:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Saying 'no I don't see it that way' doesn't refute a damn thing. This is what people talk about when they talk about typical religious logic. If we're going to debate like that then.

YOU'RE WRONG BY VIRTUE OF ME BEING RIGHT!

[Richard Roma]

:eek: :eek:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Saying 'no I don't see it that way' doesn't refute a damn thing. This is what people talk about when they talk about typical religious logic. If we're going to debate like that then.

YOU'RE WRONG BY VIRTUE OF ME BEING RIGHT!

I know what you are talking about. I seperate my faith and logic. God has a plan and I do my best to follow His rules. Some things don't make sense to me, but maybe it is not for me to make sense of. I can't refute what you are saying because i dont fully undertand it myself. This doesnt affect my faith. Nothing personal, I am not trying to insult you by giving you an inadequate answer. I just dont have all the answers. I have told you what I believe to be true.

[Loch]

I know what you are talking about. I seperate my faith and logic. God has a plan and I do my best to follow His rules. Some things don't make sense to me, but maybe it is not for me to make sense of. I can't refute what you are saying because i dont fully undertand it myself. This doesnt affect my faith. Nothing personal, I am not trying to insult you by giving you an inadequate answer. I just dont have all the answers. I have told you what I believe to be true.


It is not supose to allter your faith.
It is to tell that God created Laws of the Universe that we know of and man to follow. These law change for us when our souls leave our body and assend into heaven

[Duo_Maxwell]

You forgot that God allowed his only son to be murdered. I guess you forgot the reason too.

Wasn't necessary.


What I mean is that, as we know it there is a reaction for every action. God wills whatever and the result is Earth and plate techtonics and of course people and then development and the earthquakes and then mass destruction. While God's will could be for all of us to live in perfect harmony here that has not been his plan for he allowed certain things to happen. Why? I dont know.

Missing the point like usual. Reactions are IRREVELANT. Something cannot exist unless God wills it, you SAID THAT. God is responsible for evil, suffering, death, and all other bad things.

[mataj]

Unless you take the philosophy that the laws of science are the laws of God. It takes some experimenting but eventually there is little interpretation.Laws of science are not eternal truths. They all hold true because, and as long as no phenomena to the contrary has been observed yet.

As a matter of fact, no law of science is true in the first place. Take Newton's 1st law, for example. It states, that objects move on the straight line when no external force is present. It's a very nice law, simple, intuitive, and still valid, after all theese centuries. But alas, there is no such thing as a straight line. It doesn't exist in the real world, it's just a mathematical abstraction. Moreover, Newton's (as well as Einstein's) theory represents objects as mathematical points. To represent a planet as mathematical point when you are studying it's orbital motion is very useful, but planet is a great, big rock ball, not mathematical point.

Apart from being invalidated by new findings, scientific laws can also lose it's venerable status. Much quoted entropy law will probably lose in any time now, if it hasn't lost it already. Once it's quite properly derived from Quantum Mechanic & Information theory, it will become just another corollary, nothing more.

[Richard Roma]

Missing the point like usual. Reactions are IRREVELANT. Something cannot exist unless God wills it, you SAID THAT. God is responsible for evil, suffering, death, and all other bad things.

I am also sorry that your view of God is so negative. I know that a lot of bad things have been done in the name God, and it has created for a lot of people this negative image. For me, faith has helped me become a better person, and I find a lot of peace through my faith. It is through faith and meditation that I was able to correct my misinterpretations about God, Faith and Religion, and it is through faith my view of the world and the people in it has expanded and not narrowed. I am far from perfect, and I certainly do not have all of the answers, but I am inspired to do better everyday.

This is my faith in God. This cannot be bad.

[Duo_Maxwell]

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Review your belief system. A benevolent God who is the creator of all makes absolutely no sense.

A God who doesn't give the proverbial **** and didn't make everything and is limited in what it can do MAKE SENSE.

[sub_zer0]

ignore

[Art of War]

Laws of science are not eternal truths. They all hold true because, and as long as no phenomena to the contrary has been observed yet.

As a matter of fact, no law of science is true in the first place. Take Newton's 1st law, for example. It states, that objects move on the straight line when no external force is present. It's a very nice law, simple, intuitive, and still valid, after all theese centuries. But alas, there is no such thing as a straight line. It doesn't exist in the real world, it's just a mathematical abstraction. Moreover, Newton's (as well as Einstein's) theory represents objects as mathematical points. To represent a planet as mathematical point when you are studying it's orbital motion is very useful, but planet is a great, big rock ball, not mathematical point.

Apart from being invalidated by new findings, scientific laws can also lose it's venerable status. Much quoted entropy law will probably lose in any time now, if it hasn't lost it already. Once it's quite properly derived from Quantum Mechanic & Information theory, it will become just another corollary, nothing more.

The universe is so incredibly complex that no law of physics exists as a perfect mathematical example. However, if you are able to account for every single law acting on a specific object you can accurately predict the actions of that object. That requires knowing and being able to apply every single law, something no human can do or (I believe) will ever be able to do. In the end the universe can be broken down into a number of very simple laws. This simplicity is lost with the infinite number of interactions between those laws.

The point is you have to keep searching to refine your definition of the universe one of the main principles of science. Often times I look at science as the search for these basic laws. Every time we find something new we change our ideas about the laws the laws themselves do not change. I'm one who believes that some higher being created the universe and all of its laws and that science is the path to understand those laws. In a way I view science as the ultimate study of God without getting muddled in religion. Scientist seek to understand the nature of the universe not be told of it.

[sub_zer0]

The universe is so incredibly complex that no law of physics exists as a perfect mathematical example.

May not be a law of physics but it is a mathmatical example... 1 x 1 x 1 = 1

lol, you saw nothing, ;p

[eugene40]

May not be a law of physics but it is a mathmatical example... 1 x 1 x 1 = 3


1 times 1 times 1 = 1

[Void Image]

:lol: !!!!

Yes, accept it..your God is evil. He asks for human sacrifice, he unleashes horrible natural disasters on the world, and he leaves his poor, starving, helpless creations to rot away.

'He sacrificed his only son for us'. What sort of sacrifice is being made here? Both he and Jesus knew that after his death, he would immediately enter Heaven as the son of god, and return to Earth. What is three days of anguish compared to an eternity of bliss?? That wasn't a sacrifice at all, especially considering he was sacrificed to save us from GOD'S WRATH.

God created sin. God labeled sin. An all-powerful God could very easily blink an eye and wash your sin away upon death, regardless of your religious beliefs. He loves you, doesn't he? He could easily blink an eye and fill every person's heart with 'His Love'. He could appear before us and lead us in a golden age of good. He could snap a finger and clean pollution from the Earth. Snap another finger..and now everyone in the world has food to eat and a warm place to stay. Our streets could be lined in gold, with no more political corruption, wars, famine, natural disasters, disease, etc. You want to know the best part? NONE OF THIS VIOLATES FREE WILL. If we have a few dissenters, I'm sure they'll either change their views when offered the gifs mentioned above, and if not..let them dissent and upon death take them into heaven like an all powerful, loving God would. This would be great...but it doesn't happen. Why? Two possible reasons. One, this sentient God you worship doesn't exist, never did, and never will. Two, he doesn't care about you. He only sees to it that his drones fear him, worship him selflessly, donate their money to those 2 million dollar churches and cathedrals and lobby the government(spare no expense) to ban gay marriage and bicker over abortion while MEN AND WOMEN STARVE AND FREEZE TO DEATH IN THE VERY COUNTRY YOU CALL HOME.

[Art of War]

May not be a law of physics but it is a mathmatical example... 1 x 1 x 1 = 1

lol, you saw nothing, ;p

Do you need a map?

No physical equation composed of more than one varible ever gives a perfect solution. 1x1x1=1 is not a physical equation it is purely a mathematical one.

[sub_zer0]

Yes, accept it..your God is evil. He asks for human sacrifice, he unleashes horrible natural disasters on the world, and he leaves his poor, starving, helpless creations to rot away.

Keep trying...

'He sacrificed his only son for us'. What sort of sacrifice is being made here? Both he and Jesus knew that after his death, he would immediately enter Heaven as the son of god, and return to Earth. What is three days of anguish compared to an eternity of bliss??

3 days of anguish? Try a lifetime of persecution. Jesus was beaten so brutally He was unrecognizable.

That wasn't a sacrifice at all, especially considering he was sacrificed to save us from GOD'S WRATH.

Again, wrong... Jesus was sacrificed for you and me. So that we may not be in sin forever... we can break free of it by accepting Christ as our Savior and Lord and asking for forgiveness of those sins we commit.

God created sin.

God created angels, such as Lucifer - a golden cherub.

God labeled sin.

Satan, which Lucifer created out of rebellion against God, labeled sin concretely to Satan.

An all-powerful God could very easily blink an eye and wash your sin away upon death, regardless of your religious beliefs.

He does, because of His sacrifice to us - Jesus. No you cannot say God help me, but I won't recognize you as my God.

He loves you, doesn't he?

Yes, which is why we can choose to love Him or not... yet He always uncondistionally loves us.

He could easily blink an eye and fill every person's heart with 'His Love'.

It did happen just like that, in the beginning with Adam and Eve. Yet they chose their will over Gods and look what we got now.

He could appear before us and lead us in a golden age of good.

He will - every eye shall see Him, including you!

Revelation, chapter 1:"7": Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

He could snap a finger and clean pollution from the Earth. Snap another finger..and now everyone in the world has food to eat and a warm place to stay. Our streets could be lined in gold, with no more political corruption, wars, famine, natural disasters, disease, etc. You want to know the best part? NONE OF THIS VIOLATES FREE WILL.

Oh really...?

If we have a few dissenters, I'm sure they'll either change their views when offered the gifs mentioned above, and if not..let them dissent and upon death take them into heaven like an all powerful, loving God would.

So God is essentially buying a persons love... OK. How easy and materialistic.

So by a person not choosing Gods will and accepting Him as God it doesn't matter. The person is going to heaven anyway.

Tell me, where is the free will? And then, what is the point in believing in Him at all if you are going to heaven anyway. Your assertions bring more questions than answers.

[JoeR]

3 days of anguish? Try a lifetime of persecution. Jesus was beaten so brutally He was unrecognizable.



Again, wrong... Jesus was sacrificed for you and me. So that we may not be in sin forever... we can break free of it by accepting Christ as our Savior and Lord and asking for forgiveness of those sins we commit.



I doubt he would have been persecuted all his life, at least not more than any other Jew, since he didn't begin his ministry until 3 years before his death.

Why would God require any kind of sacrifice at all?

[Void Image]

Keep trying...



3 days of anguish? Try a lifetime of persecution. Jesus was beaten so brutally He was unrecognizable.

Aw, boo hoo. And then he spent ETERNITY ruling heaven as the son of god. Do you understand the word eternity?



Again, wrong... Jesus was sacrificed for you and me. So that we may not be in sin forever... we can break free of it by accepting Christ as our Savior and Lord and asking for forgiveness of those sins we commit.

Completely unnecessary for an all powerful loving God. Jesus does not need to even be in the equation. It doesn't make sense. Not a shred of sense.



God created angels, such as Lucifer - a golden cherub.

Yeah, great. He created evil too.

Satan, which Lucifer created out of rebellion against God, labeled sin concretely to Satan.

Wrong, Satan cannot label anything because Satan is not the creator of anything. God created sin when he created everything, because sin is a part of everything.

He does, because of His sacrifice to us - Jesus. No you cannot say God help me, but I won't recognize you as my God./quote]

Again, Jesus is completely unnecessary for a loving all powerful God. I will make the parent analogy again sub, though you probably won't respond. If your child asks you for help while 'not acknowledging' that you are his/her parent, do you abandon them?

[quote]Yes, which is why we can choose to love Him or not... yet He always uncondistionally loves us.

So abandoning someone is a sign of unconditional love?

It did happen just like that, in the beginning with Adam and Eve. Yet they chose their will over Gods and look what we got now.

I'm not going to respond to this, because so far you've repeated it in every thread you've posted in and I'm done arguing with you on the point, because it won't do either you or myself any good.

He will - every eye shall see Him, including you!

Revelation, chapter 1:"7": Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Oh the bible says he IS coming? Silly me, what was I thinking.

Oh really...?/quote]

Yes, really.



[quote]So God is essentially buying a persons love... OK. How easy and materialistic.

Yeah, much more materialistic than say, commiting your life to a material book and blindly defending it on, gee i dunno, your home computer.

So by a person not choosing Gods will and accepting Him as God it doesn't matter. The person is going to heaven anyway.

Yeah, this sounds like love to me.

Tell me, where is the free will? And then, what is the point in believing in Him at all if you are going to heaven anyway. Your assertions bring more questions than answers.

Free will is the ability to make your own choices sub. Again, you seem to be confusing free will for something else. What is the point in believing anyway sub? You're saying without a hell there is no point in believing in God? That's just stupid.

[sub_zer0]

Aw, boo hoo. And then he spent ETERNITY ruling heaven as the son of god. Do you understand the word eternity?

So the same fits you for you.... don't get mad when you spend enternity in Hell - after all that is what you wanted - no God.

Completely unnecessary for an all powerful loving God. Jesus does not need to even be in the equation. It doesn't make sense. Not a shred of sense.

Yes it is completely necessary... who are you to say what God does is not necessary?

Yeah, great. He created evil too.

No that was Lucifer.

Wrong, Satan cannot label anything because Satan is not the creator of anything. God created sin when he created everything, because sin is a part of everything.

Again, God created Lucifer, Lucifer created Satan out of rebellion against God. If that didn't happen no sin would be around.... therefore Lucifer is responsible.

Again, Jesus is completely unnecessary for a loving all powerful God. I will make the parent analogy again sub, though you probably won't respond. If your child asks you for help while 'not acknowledging' that you are his/her parent, do you abandon them?

No, but do you think they are your parents... yes it is known although it isn't specifically said.

So abandoning someone is a sign of unconditional love?

Again, God has never abandoned us. By our own sinning we move further and further away from Him.

I'm not going to respond to this, because so far you've repeated it in every thread you've posted in and I'm done arguing with you on the point, because it won't do either you or myself any good.

So then we will assume I am right until you can prove me not.

Oh the bible says he IS coming? Silly me, what was I thinking.

You have all the chance in the world! Do something with it.

Yeah, much more materialistic than say, commiting your life to a material book and blindly defending it on, gee i dunno, your home computer.

I live my life by Gods word. I commit my life and will to God.

Free will is the ability to make your own choices sub. Again, you seem to be confusing free will for something else.[quote]

No that is what I have been saying constantly, about Adam and Eve.

[quote]What is the point in believing anyway sub? You're saying without a hell there is no point in believing in God? That's just stupid.

I am saying without a hell there would be no free will. As free will is making your own choice, like Adam and Eve did, and not obeying Gods will. Therefore if you do that on earth you will get that in hell - no God and no way to ever choose His will again.

[::Major_Baker::]

sub zero, how does it feel being a mental slave?
Do you even have your own feelings, or are those just god's feeligns coming through you?

[Strel]

God wants sub_zero to buy a biology textbook and start reading!

[::Major_Baker::]

God wants sub_zero to buy a biology textbook and start reading!
no, God just wants sub zero to freakin think for himself for once.

[Sgt Frog]

Some would say that God's "Laws" are his own and not be questioned, much less understood, by mere mortals. However, people who say such things fall prey to the same "to question is to disobey" arguement.
Gallelli was correct when he said, "I am not obliged to believe that the same God that has endowed us with reason, intellect, and science intends for us to forego their use."

[::Major_Baker::]

Some would say that God's "Laws" are his own and not be questioned, much less understood, by mere mortals. However, people who say such things fall prey to the same "to question is to disobey" arguement.
Gallelli was correct when he said, "I am not obliged to believe that the same God that has endowed us with reason, intellect, and science intends for us to forego their use."
Oh, I love that quote. I haven't heard it for some time.

[Churlant]

Gallelli was correct when he said, "I am not obliged to believe that the same God that has endowed us with reason, intellect, and science intends for us to forego their use."

God DOES intend us to use our reason and intellect and science - just they must be used with respect for His Will. Without that these things are not reasonable or intelligent at all.

-JC

[Sgt Frog]

Oh, I love that quote. I haven't heard it for some time.

I think it says alot, especially when people begin to blindly follow what they believe to be "God's will".

[Sgt Frog]

God DOES intend us to use our reason and intellect and science - just they must be used with respect for His Will. Without that these things are not reasonable or intelligent at all.

-JC

I certainly mean no disrespect, but I believe you're misunderstanding the quotation.

Gallelli is saying that God DOES want humans to pursue science, philosophy, and reason because God gave us intellect.

[Churlant]

I certainly mean no disrespect, but I believe you're misunderstanding the quotation.

Gallelli is saying that God DOES want humans to pursue science, philosophy, and reason because God gave us intellect.

Except he believes the boundaries of this science and philosophy are his to decide - and they are not. God makes those boundaries, not Gallelli.

-JC

[::Major_Baker::]

Except he believes the boundaries of this science and philosophy are his to decide - and they are not. God makes those boundaries, not Gallelli.

-JC
and here you are QUITE wrong. Man made these boundaries, and wrote them in a book.

[Sgt Frog]

Except he believes the boundaries of this science and philosophy are his to decide - and they are not. God makes those boundaries, not Gallelli.

-JC

Where has God laid down these boundaries?

Just as Major Baker said, men (mere mortals) have laid down the boundaries that they believe will be in accordance with God's Law.

Only God knows what God wants.

[Churlant]

and here you are QUITE wrong. Man made these boundaries, and wrote them in a book.

Man does so at his own detriment, to be sure. More than a few souls have found their way to Hell for participating in unGodly "science".

-JC

[Churlant]

Where has God laid down these boundaries?

Just as Major Baker said, men (mere mortals) have laid down the boundaries that they believe will be in accordance with God's Law.

Only God knows what God wants.

God tells us - you just have to listen. He also wrote them down for us to read.

-JC

[Sgt Frog]

He also wrote them down for us to read.

-JC

No.

Humans, the same as you and I, wrote "God's Laws" down for us to read. And, through the course of many, many translations, much of God's "orignal word" has been lost. The politics of the ancient world dictated much of what went into the Bible.....supposed testaments straight from the big guy himself.

Men are fallible and are subject to passions that dictate their decisions and cloud their judgement. How do we know that certain Bible verses were added simply to fufill some sort of ancient soceital wish?

[Churlant]

No.

Humans, the same as you and I, wrote "God's Laws" down for us to read.

Hehehehehe...

I can't take it anymore... would someone let Frog in on the joke here? :p

-JC

[::Major_Baker::]

Hehehehehe...

I can't take it anymore... would someone let Frog in on the joke here? :p

-JC
churlant has 2 personalities, one is normal, the other is republican;)

[Sgt Frog]

Man, it's hell being the new guy. :)

[Churlant]

churlant has 2 personalities, one is normal, the other is republican;)

Actually, the other is highly (rabidly) conservative... and that would be CJ... and believe it or not I take CJ's personality very seriously as a character study and potential for personal insight... in this case I'm just playing around :)

-JC

[Churlant]

Man, it's hell being the new guy. :)

No worries... we'll just break you in... and if you ever disagree with me, I'll just break you. :cool:

:flowers: Kidding :p

-JC

[Sgt Frog]

No worries... we'll just break you in... and if you ever disagree with me, I'll just break you. :cool:

:flowers: Kidding :p

-JC

Thanks.

It'll take a while to get used to the insanity....excuse me.....sanity.

:)

[::Major_Baker::]

welcome sgt. Frog!

[Void Image]

So the same fits you for you.... don't get mad when you spend enternity in Hell - after all that is what you wanted - no God.

You haven't actually addressed my point about Jesus not really making much of a sacrifice. You're just telling me I'm going to hell.

Yes it is completely necessary... who are you to say what God does is not necessary?

Touché, I will reverse that and ask who are you to say what God does is necessary? Again you haven't shown me why it is necessary. Why is human sacrifice ever necessary? It wasn't the first time God called for the death of a human, at the very least this time it wasn't completely senseless.

Again, God created Lucifer, Lucifer created Satan out of rebellion against God. If that didn't happen no sin would be around.... therefore Lucifer is responsible.

Let's take this slowly. Lucifer did not create sin, here's why. You say sin is to go against God's will. God is the universal moral compass. Therefore when God created sentient beings, the very fact that he had set this moral compass into place created the possibility of sin, and thus sin itself.

No, but do you think they are your parents... yes it is known although it isn't specifically said.

?? Again, I ask you..if your child needed your help, but refused to acknowledge you as family, speak to you, or tell you he/she loves you, would you abandon him/her? Don't dodge the question.

Again, God has never abandoned us. By our own sinning we move further and further away from Him.

God created the fact that sinning moves you away from him. He could easily change things. I don't see why you can't understand this. Sin is the creation of God. You cannot argue with this and tell me God created everything at the same time. Make up your mind.

So then we will assume I am right until you can prove me not.

Prove WHAT?!? THERE IS NOTHING TO REFUTE! NOTHING!

You have all the chance in the world! Do something with it.

I can't even believe I've gotten this far, what is this? If this is another attempt at saving my soul, you might want to know that every word you post pushes me farther and farther away from christianity.

I live my life by Gods word. I commit my life and will to God.

Ok, good to hear? Just don't go calling anything materialistic, or else I may be compelled to call you a hypocrite.

No that is what I have been saying constantly, about Adam and Eve.

Constantly, yes, with no real effect or point. I take you less and less seriously with every response you make.

I am saying without a hell there would be no free will. As free will is making your own choice, like Adam and Eve did, and not obeying Gods will. Therefore if you do that on earth you will get that in hell - no God and no way to ever choose His will again.

............HOW? How is free will impossible without hell? Can you explain this to me because to be honest I have no idea what the **** you're talking about, and you've failed to explain why in several threads.

[sub_zer0]

You haven't actually addressed my point about Jesus not really making much of a sacrifice. You're just telling me I'm going to hell.

I cannot believe you can't see the importance of Jesus' sacrifice. He is to save ALL of humanity!

Touché, I will reverse that and ask who are you to say what God does is necessary?

I am the one who believes that the Bible is the word of God.

Again you haven't shown me why it is necessary. Why is human sacrifice ever necessary?

I presume you mean Jesus... To save us from our sins.

Let's take this slowly. Lucifer did not create sin, here's why. You say sin is to go against God's will. God is the universal moral compass. Therefore when God created sentient beings, the very fact that he had set this moral compass into place created the possibility of sin, and thus sin itself.

No. Angels have free will. Lucifer was created just like the rest - in fact better than most. All sin is, is not doing Gods will, but doing your own - Lucifer started that.

?? Again, I ask you..if your child needed your help, but refused to acknowledge you as family, speak to you, or tell you he/she loves you, would you abandon him/her? Don't dodge the question.

Of course not, and niether does God. God is always waiting with open arms. Just waiting for you to accept Him.

God created the fact that sinning moves you away from him.

No Lucifer created sin - the act of basically saying no to God.

He could easily change things. I don't see why you can't understand this. Sin is the creation of God. You cannot argue with this and tell me God created everything at the same time. Make up your mind.

God created free will. The ability to choose. He never chose to go against His will. We did and Lucifer. Of course He could easily change things and it will happen!

I can't even believe I've gotten this far, what is this? If this is another attempt at saving my soul, you might want to know that every word you post pushes me farther and farther away from christianity.

Acts 28:27 KJV: "For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

............HOW? How is free will impossible without hell? Can you explain this to me because to be honest I have no idea what the **** you're talking about, and you've failed to explain why in several threads.

If there was no Hell then there would be no place to send the ones who choose not to do Gods will. They use their free will to choose their own will over Gods. Which is essentially sinning.

Heaven = place for people who try to do Gods will - not sin
Hell = place for people who do not try to do Gods will - sin

[Dangerrmouse]

You go to hell for gross ear wax?

[sub_zer0]

You go to hell for gross ear wax?

Do I need to repeat the verse. It has a point and you can find it.

[Void Image]

I cannot believe you can't see the importance of Jesus' sacrifice. He is to save ALL of humanity!

I'm not questioning the importance, I'm asking you what he really sacrificed. To which you have still not responded.

I am the one who believes that the Bible is the word of God.

I see..so you can speak for God?

No. Angels have free will. Lucifer was created just like the rest - in fact better than most. All sin is, is not doing Gods will, but doing your own - Lucifer started that.

I don't know how clearer I could make it for you sub. Fortunately you've done that for yourself. All sin is, is not doing God's will. So, who created sin?

Of course not, and niether does God. God is always waiting with open arms. Just waiting for you to accept Him.

So what's the problem? I'm not listening? A god that can create the cosmos and all the intricate complexities of a universe is having trouble communicating with his own creation?

God created free will. The ability to choose. He never chose to go against His will. We did and Lucifer. Of course He could easily change things and it will happen!

:rolleyes: Just keep waiting for it

If there was no Hell then there would be no place to send the ones who choose not to do Gods will. They use their free will to choose their own will over Gods. Which is essentially sinning.

Heaven = place for people who try to do Gods will - not sin
Hell = place for people who do not try to do Gods will - sin

Ok. But you haven't explained why hell is necessary for free will to exist.

[sub_zer0]

I'm not questioning the importance, I'm asking you what he really sacrificed. To which you have still not responded.

He endured pain immensely while on earth and being crucified. He made the ultimate sacrifice to die for our sins.

I see..so you can speak for God?

As far as the Bible, yes.

I don't know how clearer I could make it for you sub. Fortunately you've done that for yourself. All sin is, is not doing God's will. So, who created sin?

Lucifer by not doing Gods will first.

So what's the problem? I'm not listening? A god that can create the cosmos and all the intricate complexities of a universe is having trouble communicating with his own creation?

Yes, because the creation completely rejects Him and does their own will.

Ok. But you haven't explained why hell is necessary for free will to exist.

Without Hell there would be no place to sen ones who did their own will over Gods. Just like there is a heaven for people who do Gods will.

[Void Image]

He endured pain immensely while on earth and being crucified. He made the ultimate sacrifice to die for our sins.

Which really wasn't much of a sacrifice at all, seeing as he knew he'd be returning in three days, and still had an eternity of happiness waiting for him. You also haven't mentioned anything on why this sacrifice was necessary in the first place.

As far as the Bible, yes.

Ah..could you point me to the section that explains why the things god does are necessary? I'm assuming it must be in there, since you and only you are blessed with the knowledge of God's true intentions.

Lucifer by not doing Gods will first.

Maybe if you repeat this sentence a few more times, it'll start making sense. God created everything. God created good. So god created evil. To sin is to go against God's will. Therefore since the very moment of creation sin has been in existence, and it's there because of God's will. God created sin. Lucifer just 'discovered' it.



Yes, because the creation completely rejects Him and does their own will.

I never rejected anything. I've never heard anything. No messages. No emails. No holy symbols in the sky or a piece of cheeze that miraculously had something that resembled the face of jesus on it. God has never asked me to love him. If God wanted something to be known to me, you are telling me he CAN'T?

Without Hell there would be no place to sen ones who did their own will over Gods. Just like there is a heaven for people who do Gods will.

So you're saying without a prison system there could be no free will, because we don't have any place to send those who ignore our own laws?

[sub_zer0]

Which really wasn't much of a sacrifice at all, seeing as he knew he'd be returning in three days, and still had an eternity of happiness waiting for him. You also haven't mentioned anything on why this sacrifice was necessary in the first place.

And we must do the same, you see? We endure persecution as well but in the end we will live in eternity - THAT IS THE POINT. He died for our sins that is the point of the sacrifice.

Ah..could you point me to the section that explains why the things god does are necessary? I'm assuming it must be in there, since you and only you are blessed with the knowledge of God's true intentions.

I never said that I alone am blessed with the knowledge. I am blessed with the Holy Spirit of God. And with that I can interpret the Bible through earnest study and have the interpretation correct.

Maybe if you repeat this sentence a few more times, it'll start making sense. God created everything. God created good. So god created evil. To sin is to go against God's will. Therefore since the very moment of creation sin has been in existence, and it's there because of God's will. God created sin. Lucifer just 'discovered' it.

No - free will had been in existence until it was used to go against God, as in Lucifer rebelling against God - than it became sin. Just so happens that when you choose your will over Gods that is sinning.

I never rejected anything. I've never heard anything. No messages. No emails. No holy symbols in the sky or a piece of cheeze that miraculously had something that resembled the face of jesus on it. God has never asked me to love him. If God wanted something to be known to me, you are telling me he CAN'T?

Jesus was for that. And look at the words right in front of you - God is using me to tell you that He wants you to know Him!

So you're saying without a prison system there could be no free will, because we don't have any place to send those who ignore our own laws?

I am saying in the context of eternal life, one goes to heaven one goes to hell - thats it. And you go either one of those places depending on how you use your will here on earth. To do Gods will or your own.

[Void Image]

And we must do the same, you see? We endure persecution as well but in the end we will live in eternity - THAT IS THE POINT. He died for our sins that is the point of the sacrifice.

Yes I see. But you still haven't explained why it was necessary. We're on to..what, your third, fourth post?

I never said that I alone am blessed with the knowledge. I am blessed with the Holy Spirit of God. And with that I can interpret the Bible through earnest study and have the interpretation correct.

I have this theory that the Holy Spirit is actually a mild stroke that results in damage to the frontal lobe.

No - free will had been in existence until it was used to go against God, as in Lucifer rebelling against God - than it became sin. Just so happens that when you choose your will over Gods that is sinning.

I'm done with you on this point, because you're just going to keep throwing this crap at me. God created sin because he created everything. His very existance brings about sin. Without God, there is no sin.

Jesus was for that. And look at the words right in front of you - God is using me to tell you that He wants you to know Him!

Using you? I thought you had free will?

I am saying in the context of eternal life, one goes to heaven one goes to hell - thats it. And you go either one of those places depending on how you use your will here on earth. To do Gods will or your own.

So now you're saying hell isn't really necessary for free will, right?

[sub_zer0]

Yes I see. But you still haven't explained why it was necessary.

Because if we couldn't get rid of our sin by asking Christ for forgiveness then we are all doomed to hell. We are to ask Christ for forgiveness because He died for us!

I'm done with you on this point, because you're just going to keep throwing this crap at me. God created sin because he created everything. His very existance brings about sin. Without God, there is no sin.

"Listen to this: To disobey God was to initiate evil. Evil is not the presence of something. Evil is the absence of righteousness. You can't create evil, because evil doesn't exist as a created entity. It doesn't exist as a created reality. Evil is a negative. Evil is the absence of perfection. It's the absence of holiness. It's the absence of goodness. It's the absence of righteousness. Evil became a reality only when creatures chose to disobey. Evil came into existence initially then in the fall of angels. And then next, in the fall of Adam and Eve.

Now, let me take it a step further. God did not create evil. He did not author evil. He did not make evil. But listen carefully, very important: God did decree to use evil as a part of his eternal plan, okay? He will not be culpable for it. He did not bring it into existence. That would be impossible because God is good, all good and only good. Therefore, whatever comes out of Him is all good and only good. God can, therefore, produce only good. And what is evil but the absence of that good, which is a choice made by the reasonings based upon the information revealed to his creatures? But, God was not caught off guard. In fact, God decreed that evil would be part of his plan. He is not the creator of evil, and He is not the cause of evil. He did not bring evil into existence in a cosmic sense, and he did not and does not bring evil into existence in a personal sense. He is not the cause of sin, nor is he the cause of sins in the lives of people. But he does use it for his purposes. And that's why in Isaiah 45:7 -- just write this down; you may run across it. It says God creates "calamity." Some older translations say He "creates evil." That is a really poor translation, and not true. God does create "calamity." And if you read the context of Isaiah 45:7, it is clear that judgment is the issue. God does not create evil, but God does bring judgment on evil, creating therefore the calamity by which evil is judged. Now, listen carefully: Scripture written by God always assigns the guilt and responsibility for all sin to creatures; never to God. Never to God. Folks, that's all we know. Okay?

I've taken you as deep as I can go. There's nowhere else to go. That's all we know. Beyond that, we operate in faith. We do know some things. We know God is holy, right? We know he is too pure to look on iniquity; can't tolerate evil. We know He "tempts no man," neither is tempted by any man. We know he is "Holy, holy, holy," all the things we went through. "No evil dwells in Him." "He is all light and no darkness." We know that. We believe that. God is not the author of confusion. He is not the source of sin. We know that. We believe that. Sin comes into existence when the standard of moral perfection is not met, and that is an act based upon intellect, reason and choice made by his creatures.

Now the question then comes up: Why? Why would God allow sin? Well, come on, now. I -- I can only speculate. There's no specific statement. But I think you can make a fairly reasonable speculation beyond which I cannot go, and don't find any value in attempting to go. And it is this: What did sin -- what did sin coming into the world bring about? Well, it brought about, I would say, three things. And these are the three reasons why I believe God allowed evil.

Number one, it brought about the salvation of sinners, right? God had to allow sin. God had to decree sin in the plan, though never the author of it, in order that he might save sinners. Well, why did God want to save sinners? To put on display attributes that otherwise never would have been manifest, right? How is God going to show grace if there aren't any sinners? How is God going to show mercy if there aren't any sinners? That was a part of God's nature that God wanted to display for his own glory throughout all eternity. So God provided a means in which he could demonstrate grace and demonstrate mercy. He also wanted to show love; love that is so far-reaching that it can reach even his own enemies who hate him. How's He going to show that if he doesn't have any enemies? So God allows evil in order that He might demonstrate grace and mercy and forgiveness and salvation.

Secondly, He allows evil in order that He might display his wrath; in order that he might put his wrath on display, his anger on display, his judgment on display. How would God ever reveal that part of His true and eternal nature if there were not an opportunity to judge sinners? And so all you can do is look at redemptive history, and you see the salvation of sinners and the damnation of sinners, and that is what goes on. And you see, ultimately, a place prepared for those who were damned and a place prepared for those who were saved. And you must conclude then that the eternal purpose of God was to save some and judge some in order that he might demonstrate both his grace and his wrath.

And then I'd like to throw a third thought in there. I believe that God allowed sin in order that he might forever destroy it. As long as His creatures have any measure of freedom, as long as his creatures have intelligence; that is, they can know and reason; that is, they can process that knowledge toward behavior and choice; that is, they can choose what to do. As long as they have that capacity, there is a potential for them to fall short of the standard, right? To make the wrong choice. "

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-235.htm

[JoeR]

Why couldn't we have just asked for forgiveness, and skip the him dying part? What crucial role does his death play exactly?

[sub_zer0]

Why couldn't we have just asked for forgiveness, and skip the him dying part? What crucial role does his death play exactly?

Because if you read the OT you see the need for sacrifices unto the Lord for the forgiving of their sins. It is what was commanded by God. What that did is lead up to the ultimate sacrifice - Jesus Christ. He died once and for all to finally and ultimately conquer sin. Jesus Christs died so we may live. Because of His death we can have a personal relationship with God and be forgiven of our sins.

[Dangerrmouse]

So he made us less than perfect, then expec....no, demands that we suck up to him because we aren't perfect??? What a scam!

[::Major_Baker::]

Because if you read the OT you see the need for sacrifices unto the Lord for the forgiving of their sins. It is what was commanded by God. What that did is lead up to the ultimate sacrifice - Jesus Christ. He died once and for all to finally and ultimately conquer sin. Jesus Christs died so we may live. Because of His death we can have a personal relationship with God and be forgiven of our sins.
Isn't the ultimate sacrafice to sacrafice yourself, not your son? Sounds kinda cowardly in my opinion.
What would you do to regain all of the time you have wasted on this if it were proven without a doubt that God did not exist?

Better yet, answer this: Would you still believe in God if it were proven he did not exist, and the pope and every religious leader in the country concurred?

[Bad Penny]

Because if you read the OT you see the need for sacrifices unto the Lord for the forgiving of their sins. It is what was commanded by God. What that did is lead up to the ultimate sacrifice - Jesus Christ. He died once and for all to finally and ultimately conquer sin. Jesus Christs died so we may live. Because of His death we can have a personal relationship with God and be forgiven of our sins.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Do you have any idea how rediculous that sounds to a realist? Maybe not. Maybe it's just me. :rolleyes:

Sounds like it's intervention time. :eek:

[JoeR]

Why would God demand any sacrifices at all?

[Loch]

Cause it is a test of faith. Sacrafice is not only found in religon, but in life as well. Without sacrafice, there is nothing to gain.

[brainpan]

You have had a year to think about this, Loch. If God created the universe, and with it a series of universal laws, and if it follows that disproving these laws would undo the very fabric of reality and cause the universe to not exist, it's important that we know what these laws are.

Can you identify the key "God Laws" that hold reality together and prevent the destruction of the universe? Is it theoretically possible to disprove these "pillars of truth" that hold the sky above us? Could science pose a terrible threat to existence itself?

[Loch]

You have had a year to think about this, Loch. If God created the universe, and with it a series of universal laws, and if it follows that disproving these laws would undo the very fabric of reality and cause the universe to not exist, it's important that we know what these laws are.

Can you identify the key "God Laws" that hold reality together and prevent the destruction of the universe? Is it theoretically possible to disprove these "pillars of truth" that hold the sky above us? Could science pose a terrible threat to existence itself?

Well first off, I was in a coma, secondly. There is only one univeral law.

God is infalable...

Sorry but that is all i could find. No series, just one.

[brainpan]

Well first off, I was in a coma, secondly. There is only one univeral law. God is infalable...If you just awoke from a year-long coma, I suppose you can be forgiven for contradicting yourself.

So there is not "a series of universal laws," as you initially asserted, but only one universal law (God is infallible) that holds the sky up and prevents reality from destroying itself.

Let's examine your new position. God created the universal law that He is infallible, presumably after creating Himself. That seems redundant, but maybe god creation is a two-step process, first comes the creative act and the attributes are added later.

At the risk of destroying the universe, the God of the Bible is fallible. He contradicts Himself, changes His mind, and allows petty humanlike emotion to put a curb on His supposedly infallible quality.
Sorry but that is all i could find. No series, just one.I forgive you.

[FlyingGuineapig]

Can you identify the key "God Laws" that hold reality together and prevent the destruction of the universe? Is it theoretically possible to disprove these "pillars of truth" that hold the sky above us? Could science pose a terrible threat to existence itself?


So there is not "a series of universal laws," as you initially asserted, but only one universal law (God is infallible) that holds the sky up and prevents reality from destroying itself.

Let's examine your new position. God created the universal law that He is infallible, presumably after creating Himself. That seems redundant, but maybe god creation is a two-step process, first comes the creative act and the attributes are added later.

Well, let's look at it this way: if the Universe was created with the central law being "The customer is always right", then it would be safe to assume it would be very, very different than it is today. :)

[Antipathy]

Cause it is a test of faith. Sacrafice is not only found in religon, but in life as well. Without sacrafice, there is nothing to gain.What is the point of testing something when you know with absolute certainty what the outcome is going to be?

[DPlague]

Let's examine your new position. God created the universal law that He is infallible, presumably after creating Himself. That seems redundant, but maybe god creation is a two-step process, first comes the creative act and the attributes are added later.


It sounds like creating a god is a lot like creating software. So somewhere out there is a more-powerful-than-God Software Engineer...now there's a scary thought. ;)

[Izdaari]

Well, let's look at it this way: if the Universe was created with the central law being "The customer is always right", then it would be safe to assume it would be very, very different than it is today. :)
That's an interesting thought. I suppose it could depend on who the customer is. Doesn't seem like it's us, does it?

[FlyingGuineapig]

It sounds like creating a god is a lot like creating software. So somewhere out there is a more-powerful-than-God Software Engineer...now there's a scary thought. ;)

Well, what's scarier is that there could be a God Project Manager, Marketing Department, and CEO (which might explain why the God Software Engineer only had 6 days to get things done, and why its so tough to get ahold of support these days).


That's an interesting thought. I suppose it could depend on who the customer is. Doesn't seem like it's us, does it?

And even if we're not the customer, that would likely imply that we're part of the product for whoever that customer is, and I can't imagine that they're all that happy with us. Unless we're the cosmic equivalent of "Borat".

:)

[Riddley]

. Unless we're the cosmic equivalent of "Borat".


You might be on to something there, FG.:)

[Kong]

Gravity is a law of God. For God to contradict it would be for God to contradicti himself.

Gravity is not a law of God. It’s a law of man’s reasoning, a scientific theory. Mathematical are also law’s of man’s reasoning.

Well first off, I was in a coma, secondly. There is only one univeral law. God is infalable... Sorry but that is all i could find. No series, just one.

“God is infalable” is not a law. It is a statement of your belief. Therefore, there are no universal laws.

[Kong]

Therefore, there are no universal laws.
Sorry to be so arrogant and to make such an error in argument. There may be one or more universal laws from a spiritual perspective, but if there are I don’t believe anyone one has posted one yet. IMHO.

[heel31ok]

I do not believe that the natural laws God created were to show who he is but only to sustain natural life.Thus if they are suspended at anytime it is not a proof of his falibility but of his creating the laws for us not us for the laws.It is not for the purposes of propping up the laws but for propping us up.

[Geiger2040]

Blah Blah Blah don't you people have something better to debate than laws of God and Nature?

If God is real, universal, and all powerful, most likely He would have created Nature to serve Him. The laws of gravity can be a law of God.

[Kong]

Ya, maybe. But, gravity is not a law, it is a physical phenomenon.