Contradictions in Revelations

[DRMIZER]

Contradictions in Revelation

Will Jesus' second coming be visible to all? 1:7

Is Jesus God? 1:17, 22:13

Is Salvation by faith alone? 2:23, 20:12-13

What must you do to be saved? 2:23, 20:12-13

What were the 12 tribes of Israel? 7:6

Is it OK to take oaths? 10:5-6

Is God's will always done in heaven? 12:7

Should we fear God? 14:7

Does Hell exist? 14:10-11, 20:10, 20:14-15

Is only God holy? 15:4

Is death final? 20:12-13

What's new? 21:1

Will the earth last forever? 21:1

Is it wrong to lie? 21:8

Was Joseph the father of Jesus? 22:16

[Strel]

How many mushrooms did John eat to see all these weird things? (Unknown)

[Churlant]

How many mushrooms did John eat to see all these weird things? (Unknown)

The answer would be 42, actually.

-JC

[sub_zer0]

Contradictions in Revelation

Will Jesus' second coming be visible to all? 1:7

Yes it is very visible. It says "every eye shall see Him." This will be a fulfillment of a prophecy of the Old Testament - Daniel 7:13.

Is Jesus God? 1:17, 22:13

Yes the Son of Man is in reference to Jesus Christ in 1:17. 22:13 is just a reference to the eternality of God.

Is Salvation by faith alone? 2:23, 20:12-13

Yes you are saved by faith alone. But when judgment comes your works based on or not of faith. The judgment is intended to reveal the number and gravity of sins comitted and their various degrees of severity.

What must you do to be saved? 2:23, 20:12-13

The Bible tells us that we must be "born again" or "saved" (John 3:3). It means that you have received Jesus as your Lord and Savior and that you believe that Jesus died for your sins, was buried, and was resurrected (1st Corinthians 15:3-4, Romans 10:9, Romans 5:8). You must also confess and repent of your sins (1st John 1:9, Luke 13:3).

There is only one way to heaven and that's through Jesus. He says "I am the door" (John 10:9) and that no one gets to the Father except through Him (John 14:6).

The Lord is knocking on the door of your heart and it's up to you to let him in (Revelation 3:20).

What were the 12 tribes of Israel? 7:6

REUBEN, SIMEON, LEVI, JUDAH, DAN, NAPHTALI, GAD, ASHER, ISSACHAR, ZEBULUN, JOSEPH and BENJAMIN.

Is it OK to take oaths? 10:5-6

In this case, because it is by God and the angel is stating, rather, that the wrong government of the earth will be judged by God.

Is God's will always done in heaven? 12:7

True, but Satan is sin... so once God destroys Satan for good, sin will be no longer.

Should we fear God? 14:7

To fear the Lord is the beginning of wisdom... it is up to you to discern as to what the actual type of fear you should have towards God.

Does Hell exist? 14:10-11, 20:10, 20:14-15

Yes there is a Hell. In 14:10-11 it is stating that the trust in the power and authority of the beast will not stand them any good once God comes. Perserverance and faith will be called upon in those days.

Is only God holy? 15:4

In the context of the passage, yes, He is the only one Holy to be considered God and to be worshipped by all nations.

Is death final? 20:12-13

No death is not final. You either get raptured or die physically... Once that happens you are to be judged then eternity.

What's new? 21:1

A new heaven and a new earth... think of it a purification of heaven and earth.

Will the earth last forever? 21:1

Yes!

Is it wrong to lie? 21:8

Like I have been saying to Churlant, believers and un-believers are clearly defined before this passage. What it is trying to do is warn all of lying and to repent and warning the unrepentant that they are doomed.

Was Joseph the father of Jesus? 22:16

Yes, legally. Mary was Jesus' blood mother. God is the Father of Jesus more than Joseph.

[towski]

2 hours and 39 minutes. You're slipping.

[Churlant]

Like I have been saying to Churlant, believers and un-believers are clearly defined before this passage. What it is trying to do is warn all of lying and to repent and warning the unrepentant that they are doomed.
.

Well, as you've said yourself - this isn't up to interpretation. The passage clearly says "all liars". I'm not quite sure what you understand the definition of "all" to be, so perhaps I'll help:


2. Constituting, being, or representing the total extent or the whole: all Christendom.


Ah hell, isn't that example appropriate, or what? :)

-JC

[Russikan]

The answer would be 42, actually.

-JC

I love you Churlant. Will you marry me?

[sub_zer0]

Well, as you've said yourself - this isn't up to interpretation. The passage clearly says "all liars". I'm not quite sure what you understand the definition of "all" to be, so perhaps I'll help:

-JC

The definition of all is "all unbelievers" as unbelievers is plainly stated before the mentioning of "all liars". But, like I said, it is there to serve as a warning to "all people" or to "all believers" as well.... ;p

[Churlant]

I love you Churlant. Will you marry me?

Sure... but we need to be citizens of MA. (oh, and I may need to get a divorce first...)

-JC

[Churlant]

The definition of all is "all unbelievers" as unbelievers is plainly stated before the mentioning of "all liars". But, like I said, it is there to serve as a warning to "all people" or to "all believers" as well.... ;p

And as I've mentioned before, the description of "unbelievers" is listed as an inclusion, not a qualifier. The sentence clearly states a number of behaviors which will get you to Hell, each separated by a comma (as is customary when phrasing). Here, I'll put it up again.


"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death"


"Unbelieving" is not even the start of this sentence. You could just as well make an argument that "all liars" only refers to all of the murdering liars, or all fearful liars, etc.

Sorry, but you are using an interpretation of this statement that is completely counter to the english language. If you want an 'out', you'll need to think of something better than that.

-JC

[Dangerrmouse]

I just noticed, the "fearful" begin that hellbound list, but Zero (and the Bible) says we must all fear god! Also whoremongers, but not actual whores.

[Churlant]

I just noticed, the "fearful" begin that hellbound list, but Zero (and the Bible) says we must all fear god! Also whoremongers, but not actual whores.

In this context I can figure that "fearful" and "fearing God" may mean entirely different things.

However... you've got me on the whores part :p

-JC

...did you know that 'whores' won't be edited, but the singular '*****' will? :D

[JoeR]

So God loves ho's but not pimps?

[Churlant]

So God loves ho's but not pimps?

Why not? I'm the same way. :D

-JC

[sub_zer0]

And as I've mentioned before, the description of "unbelievers" is listed as an inclusion, not a qualifier. The sentence clearly states a number of behaviors which will get you to Hell, each separated by a comma (as is customary when phrasing). Here, I'll put it up again.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death"

"Unbelieving" is not even the start of this sentence. You could just as well make an argument that "all liars" only refers to all of the murdering liars, or all fearful liars, etc.

Again, if you look at a more broader context - which is what you need to do to understand this passage. You will see in Revelation 2:2 that it speaks of people claiming to be apostles - obviously non-believers as it refers to them as liars.

Now what makes a liar?

"2:2": I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

That is saying that God knows your works and how you cannot bear evil. It also says that you have tried them, which say they are apostles - people who are unbelievers - but are not.

Again look at Jeremiah 50:36 KJV: "A sword is upon the liars; and they shall dote: a sword is upon her mighty men; and they shall be dismayed."

That passage is in reference to Babylon and other corrupt or unbelieving societies/kingdoms or people. Again they are called liars.

Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of believers being liars and because of that are doomed to Hell. Everybody lies, but the difference is repentance, belief, or obediance in the one who will judge you because of your lies.

[::Major_Baker::]

sub, don't you ever get tired of this stuff?

[Dangerrmouse]

That's not what it plainly says. Do you believe in the literal truth of your bible, or only in the bits in your comfort zone? The rest are all interpreted, rationalised, explained away, or just ignored.

[Churlant]

That's not what it plainly says. Do you believe in the literal truth of your bible, or only in the bits in your comfort zone? The rest are all interpreted, rationalised, explained away, or just ignored.

Heh, apparently the Bible is only literal when it is talking about things which don't apply to the reader... otherwise it's up for interpretation. :D

But then, we knew that already. It's just nice to have someone admit it out loud.

-JC

[Strel]

Heh, apparently the Bible is only literal when it is talking about things which don't apply to the reader... otherwise it's up for interpretation. :D

But then, we knew that already. It's just nice to have someone admit it out loud.

-JC


A certain level of intellectual dishonesty is a prerequisite for religion.

[Churlant]

A certain level of intellectual dishonesty is a prerequisite for religion.

I think of it more as "self-deception" than intellectual dishonesty... after all, much of this really isn't as intellectual as it is metaphysical, which kind of defies "truth" inherently.

I mean, if I say the Pink Unicorn has three horns, and you say it has one horn... am I really being dishonest?

-JC

[sub_zer0]

I think of it more as "self-deception" than intellectual dishonesty... after all, much of this really isn't as intellectual as it is metaphysical, which kind of defies "truth" inherently.

I mean, if I say the Pink Unicorn has three horns, and you say it has one horn... am I really being dishonest?

-JC

Yes, because there is still the truth out there... until you come across and see the truth about the unicorn, you are lying.

[::Major_Baker::]

Yes, because there is still the truth out there... until you come across and see the truth about the unicorn, you are lying.
the problem is, that people like you have given up looking for the truth.

[sub_zer0]

the problem is, that people like you have given up looking for the truth.

I have the truth...

[Churlant]

Yes, because there is still the truth out there... until you come across and see the truth about the unicorn, you are lying.

The "truth" about the unicorn is relative to the individual who believes in it. Your "Truth" is not the same as any other Christian's "Truth" on this planet.

Your Unicorn may have 3 horns, mine may have 1 - we're both correct because "Truth" in the face of faith is personal. Always has been, always will be.

-JC

[towski]

Yes, because there is still the truth out there...

Isn't that Mulder's line from the X Files? Spooky.

[Dangerrmouse]

Yes, because there is still the truth out there... until you come across and see the truth about the unicorn, you are lying.

It works the other way too..

..until you come across and see the truth about the God, you are lying.

See? What makes the Invisible Pink Unicorn (blessed be her name) any less believeable than your invisible sky-dweller?

[sub_zer0]

It works the other way too..

..until you come across and see the truth about the God, you are lying.

See? What makes the Invisible Pink Unicorn (blessed be her name) any less believeable than your invisible sky-dweller?

I have come across and I have seen the truth about God... It could be that I picked the truth among the lies. It is up to you to discern without any blinders... I have and I stick to it.

[Dangerrmouse]

What makes your truth truer than my truth?

[Jetsons]

I have come across and I have seen the truth about God... It could be that I picked the truth among the lies. It is up to you to discern without any blinders... I have and I stick to it.

I am really curious as to what your truth is? What is your interpretation of what the truth is? Hopefully you are not caught up in the literal interpretation of the bible as that is very dangerous. Especially if that interpretation is preached by a single individual to a mass of people say in a church setting. If the people being preached to are not discerning they may actually believe the entire interpretation of the person doing the preaching.

The bible was written by men, the stories to be included in the bible were selected by men, how the stories were told were transcribed by men generations after the events happened. Don't you think that they maybe got a word wrong here or there. Maybe because we are all limited in our knowledge, biased by our experiences the people who wrote the stories didn't write the story correctly.

[sub_zer0]

I am really curious as to what your truth is? What is your interpretation of what the truth is?

John 14:6 KJV: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

I hope that clears up things.

Hopefully you are not caught up in the literal interpretation of the bible as that is very dangerous. Especially if that interpretation is preached by a single individual to a mass of people say in a church setting. If the people being preached to are not discerning they may actually believe the entire interpretation of the person doing the preaching.

Which is why I have 2 Bibles - NIV and KJV. An exhaustive commentary of the KJV Bible. A library which contains books covering dozens of different topics discussed within the Bible. All authors of which are very well respected and deeply moved by the Holy Spirit.

You point out something very important... Which is why I have been warning people about doing such things. A more wider view and understanding of Biblical context should always be considered.

The bible was written by men, the stories to be included in the bible were selected by men, how the stories were told were transcribed by men generations after the events happened. Don't you think that they maybe got a word wrong here or there. Maybe because we are all limited in our knowledge, biased by our experiences the people who wrote the stories didn't write the story correctly.

The men, or prophets of God, who wrote the Old Testament were divinely moved by the Holy Spirit and commanded directly by God at times. Male lineages being favored in the Bible could be a human bias, so to speak.

But the major foundations of the Bible are rock solid and really the Bible as a whole.

[JoeR]

A more wider view and understanding of Biblical context should always be considered.

So in other words certain things probably shouldn't be read literally.

[Dangerrmouse]

Other religions have Holy Books and Scriptures. Why are theirs less true than yours?

[sub_zer0]

So in other words certain things probably shouldn't be read literally.

Yes, after intensive study and the Holy Spirit, one should come to a good conclusion as to the direct meaning of the certain passage.

Other religions have Holy Books and Scriptures. Why are theirs less true than yours?

I think the Bible explains that for itself.

[Dangerrmouse]

No, it doesn't. It makes magical claims like the others do. No more, no less. Why should I believe it before the others?