There is no such thing as freedom of speach

[Aly Liz]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177027,00.html

Merry Christmas Everyone!!!

And remember. Jesus is the reason for the season.

[Craig]

I am having a very difficult time locating this on the ACLU webpage. Given that the ACLU is open about whatever they are fighting for, it seems odd to me that I cannot locate it. Perhaps you can direct me to where it is, Aly Liz?

[Aly Liz]

I am having a very difficult time locating this on the ACLU webpage. Given that the ACLU is open about whatever they are fighting for, it seems odd to me that I cannot locate it. Perhaps you can direct me to where it is, Aly Liz?

Mmmmm.. i have no idea what you ment. But its on the Fox News site and it was writen by Bill O'Reilly.

Hope that helps.

[Craig]

Mmmmm.. i have no idea what you ment. But its on the Fox News site and it was writen by Bill O'Reilly.

Hope that helps.

What I'm saying is that I can see no article on the ACLU webpage that states the ACLU is fighting against having the word "Christmas" allowed to be uttered in public. Therefore, I was wondering if you could help me locate such an article on their webpage. As I said above, they are open about what they are fighting for, so they'd have some sort of write up if this is a genuine issue they are pursuing.

[JoeR]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177027,00.html

Merry Christmas Everyone!!!

And remember. Jesus is the reason for the season.

More like ancient traditions focusing around the equinoxes.

[Antipathy]

There is no such thing as freedom of speachNever mind "freedom of speach", there is no such thing as "speach!" Seriously... you can look it up. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=speach) ;)

:sorry:

[Strel]

This is a load of crap.

Do I need to post links to all the cases where the ACLU defends Christians? Are there ANY right-wing fundy Christians out there that have a clue how this thing is supposed to work?

Honestly! Whenever you criticize enforcement of the Establishment Clause you conveniently forget about free exercise, and act as if the ACLU and others are fighting against your right to religion. BALONEY. You don't get it. Cut out the BS false victim act already. It's sickening.

[The Big Bog]

But ... but ... if it's an article by Bill O'Really(?), it MUST be accurate ...

[White_One]

I TOTALLY agree with the headline!

:thumbsup:

[::Major_Baker::]

Jesus is not the reason for my season.
I celebrate it as a family gathering holiday, a time of love and happiness. nothing to do with church.

[serenity]

Mmmmm.. i have no idea what you ment. But its on the Fox News site and it was writen by Bill O'Reilly.

Hope that helps.


But you must remember, Aly Liz, that Bill O'Reilly is an outright liar.

And I don't mean this as a matter of opinion--it's demonstrable, proven.

O'Reilly, while arguing with a Canadian journalist, told her that he would call for a boycott of Canadian goods--and he said that his boycott against France had severely damaged their economy, according to "The Paris Business Review."

Now, as it turns out, US/French trade has gone UP in recent years, not down...his boycott, while amusing, has NOT harmed their economy, certainly not "severely."

But more to the point, there IS NO such publication as the "Paris Business Review."

He made it up. Out of whole cloth. On public television. To "win" a debate.

He's a liar. Don't listen to the man, he gives conservatives a bad name.

[::Major_Baker::]

Yes, aly liz, you will not get far citing sources from foxnews, but especially Bill O Reilly.

[Churlant]

Merry Christmas!

Seems that freedom of speech is alive and well. :sorry:

-JC

[Scaryclouds]

Jesus is not the reason for my season.
I celebrate it as a family gathering holiday, a time of love and happiness. nothing to do with church.


You may not thank or even acknowledge the existance of Jesus but he is the reason you celebrate Christmas at least on December 25 since you know that is his birthday and thats why people celebrate that particular day. Now if you had a "Christmas" like holiday in Janurary or any other time of the year then yes would be correct Jesus is not the reassn for that gathering.

[Strel]

You may not thank or even acknowledge the existance of Jesus but he is the reason you celebrate Christmas at least on December 25 since you know that is his birthday and thats why people celebrate that particular day. Now if you had a "Christmas" like holiday in Janurary or any other time of the year then yes would be correct Jesus is not the reassn for that gathering.


Jesus wasn't born in December, and there was already an annual party scheduled which the Christians essentially crashed and took over.

So no, Jesus is not the reason for the season. The tilting of the earth is the reason for the season, and "Christmas" is just another Pagan holiday commandeered by Christians because they cannot stand competition.

[::Major_Baker::]

You may not thank or even acknowledge the existance of Jesus but he is the reason you celebrate Christmas at least on December 25 since you know that is his birthday and thats why people celebrate that particular day. Now if you had a "Christmas" like holiday in Janurary or any other time of the year then yes would be correct Jesus is not the reassn for that gathering.
I repeat, Jesus is not the reason for my season.
Of course Christmas traditionally is held on Dec 25th, but it has nothng to do with religion for me.

[Craig]

As other people have picked up on Liz, I think the entire claim about not being allowed to say "Christmas" is bogus. There have been other instances where something the ACLU has reportedly done something that has had many conservative Americans up in arms, when in fact the ACLU had no intention of doing that which they were accused of by folks like Reilly. And, to be honest, I bet the majority of the conservatives in that group never even bothered to check about the veracity of the claims made about the ACLU; the claims were consistent with their preconceptions of the ACLU, and thus they accepted them carte blanche.

[sub_zer0]

As other people have picked up on Liz, I think the entire claim about not being allowed to say "Christmas" is bogus. There have been other instances where something the ACLU has reportedly done something that has had many conservative Americans up in arms, when in fact the ACLU had no intention of doing that which they were accused of by folks like Reilly. And, to be honest, I bet the majority of the conservatives in that group never even bothered to check about the veracity of the claims made about the ACLU; the claims were consistent with their preconceptions of the ACLU, and thus they accepted them carte blanche.

Oh so ACLU doesn't support NAMBLA?

[Strel]

Oh so ACLU doesn't support NAMBLA?

No, it doesn't - not in the way portrayed by some:

http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/protest/11289prs20000831.html

ACLU Statement on Defending Free Speech of Unpopular Organizations (8/31/2000)


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


NEW YORK--In the United States Supreme Court over the past few years, the American Civil Liberties Union has taken the side of a fundamentalist Christian church, a Santerian church, and the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In celebrated cases, the ACLU has stood up for everyone from Oliver North to the National Socialist Party. In spite of all that, the ACLU has never advocated Christianity, ritual animal sacrifice, trading arms for hostages or genocide. In representing NAMBLA today, our Massachusetts affiliate does not advocate sexual relationships between adults and children.

What the ACLU does advocate is robust freedom of speech for everyone. The lawsuit involved here, were it to succeed, would strike at the heart of freedom of speech. The case is based on a shocking murder. But the lawsuit says the crime is the responsibility not of those who committed the murder, but of someone who posted vile material on the Internet. The principle is as simple as it is central to true freedom of speech: those who do wrong are responsible for what they do; those who speak about it are not.

It is easy to defend freedom of speech when the message is something many people find at least reasonable. But the defense of freedom of speech is most critical when the message is one most people find repulsive. That was true when the Nazis marched in Skokie. It remains true today.

This is their position, straight from the horse's mouth.

[sub_zer0]

No, it doesn't - not in the way portrayed by some:

http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/protest/11289prs20000831.html

ACLU Statement on Defending Free Speech of Unpopular Organizations (8/31/2000)


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


NEW YORK--In the United States Supreme Court over the past few years, the American Civil Liberties Union has taken the side of a fundamentalist Christian church, a Santerian church, and the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In celebrated cases, the ACLU has stood up for everyone from Oliver North to the National Socialist Party. In spite of all that, the ACLU has never advocated Christianity, ritual animal sacrifice, trading arms for hostages or genocide. In representing NAMBLA today, our Massachusetts affiliate does not advocate sexual relationships between adults and children.

What the ACLU does advocate is robust freedom of speech for everyone. The lawsuit involved here, were it to succeed, would strike at the heart of freedom of speech. The case is based on a shocking murder. But the lawsuit says the crime is the responsibility not of those who committed the murder, but of someone who posted vile material on the Internet. The principle is as simple as it is central to true freedom of speech: those who do wrong are responsible for what they do; those who speak about it are not.

It is easy to defend freedom of speech when the message is something many people find at least reasonable. But the defense of freedom of speech is most critical when the message is one most people find repulsive. That was true when the Nazis marched in Skokie. It remains true today.

This is their position, straight from the horse's mouth.

You don't defend anybodys free speech if they support having sex with young boys...

[Strel]

You don't defend anybodys free speech if they support having sex with young boys...


And you didn't read my post, even the bolded part.

The ACLU here defended NAMBLA's (and YOUR) right to speech. At no point did they advocate the content of that speech, and in fact, directly state that they do not advocate it.

In spite of this, you conclude otherwise based on...what? You either do not understand their position or are deliberately misrepresenting it.

Show me where the ACLU advocates pedophilia.

[Craig]

Oh so ACLU doesn't support NAMBLA?

This is entirely irrelavent sub_zer0. What's relavent is whether or not O'Reilly's claim is correct, and unless someone comes up with some very good evidence in a really hurry, I'm betting that this entire claim is bogus.

[Russikan]

You don't defend anybodys free speech if they support having sex with young boys...

I don't know about you, but I have often made jokes about stealing. If I say that I want to steal something should I be prosecuted for doing it?

[Strel]

I don't know about you, but I have often made jokes about stealing. If I say that I want to steal something should I be prosecuted for doing it?
\

And we had a thread just now on the legalization of marijuana. Should all these people be arrested?

[Aly Liz]

But you must remember, Aly Liz, that Bill O'Reilly is an outright liar.

And I don't mean this as a matter of opinion--it's demonstrable, proven.

O'Reilly, while arguing with a Canadian journalist, told her that he would call for a boycott of Canadian goods--and he said that his boycott against France had severely damaged their economy, according to "The Paris Business Review."

Now, as it turns out, US/French trade has gone UP in recent years, not down...his boycott, while amusing, has NOT harmed their economy, certainly not "severely."

But more to the point, there IS NO such publication as the "Paris Business Review."

He made it up. Out of whole cloth. On public television. To "win" a debate.

He's a liar. Don't listen to the man, he gives conservatives a bad name.

I watch his show all the time. Im not realy sure if I like the man or not but he talks in a language that i understand. Meaning, he doesnt use big political tearms and is always interviewing on current stuff that im aware of

[Aly Liz]

Jesus wasn't born in December, and there was already an annual party scheduled which the Christians essentially crashed and took over.

So no, Jesus is not the reason for the season. The tilting of the earth is the reason for the season, and "Christmas" is just another Pagan holiday commandeered by Christians because they cannot stand competition.

The tilting of the Earth is the reason for the weather. Jesus is the reason for the Holidays.

[Aly Liz]

As other people have picked up on Liz, I think the entire claim about not being allowed to say "Christmas" is bogus. There have been other instances where something the ACLU has reportedly done something that has had many conservative Americans up in arms, when in fact the ACLU had no intention of doing that which they were accused of by folks like Reilly. And, to be honest, I bet the majority of the conservatives in that group never even bothered to check about the veracity of the claims made about the ACLU; the claims were consistent with their preconceptions of the ACLU, and thus they accepted them carte blanche.

The only reason for my posting this thread is because I heard the story on a local news channel. And while i was doing other things I found it difficult to pay attention, so thats why I looked it up. The homepage of my enternet is set to Fox News so thats where I did my search.

[Craig]

The only reason for my posting this thread is because I heard the story on a local news channel. And while i was doing other things I found it difficult to pay attention, so thats why I looked it up. The homepage of my enternet is set to Fox News so thats where I did my search.

The point is that you need to cross-examine news stories from time to time. Especially ones from organizations like Fox News when they start to make claims about the ACLU.

[Soren]

I watch his show all the time. Im not realy sure if I like the man or not but he talks in a language that i understand. Meaning, he doesnt use big political tearms and is always interviewing on current stuff that im aware ofI know his language too. It is outrage and contraversy. Too bad that truth often isn't his native language.

[Aly Liz]

The point is that you need to cross-examine news stories from time to time. Especially ones from organizations like Fox News when they start to make claims about the ACLU.

Whistle stopper is my way of cross examination. ;) Thanks to people on here Ive learned a lot.

[eugene40]

You don't defend anybodys free speech if they support having sex with young boys...


If you are an organization that defends the rights of all citizens.. Then it has to be ALL CITIZENS... if they chose the people that they defended they would be no better then say hmmmm christians and other religions. That say they love everyone one and accept everyone but they really don't.
The ACLU should be an example to them.. :)

And some guy name jesus isn't the reason for the holidays as it has been stated above by a few different posters. get over yourselves you religion isn't squat. get your own damn holidays like in july or august.

[jamesrage]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177027,00.html

Merry Christmas Everyone!!!

And remember. Jesus is the reason for the season.

Most liberals view Fox News in the Same manner that conservatives view CNN and all those other liberal networks.

[Strel]

Jesus is the reason for the Holidays.

For some, but not for all.


I choose to celebrate "Christmas" as it was before the Christians commandeered it. You got a problem with that?

No one is making you celebrate Christmas their way - you simply are not going to be allowed to use the organs of the state to foist your way on anybody else.

Get over it.

[towski]

The tilting of the Earth is the reason for the weather. Jesus is the reason for the Holidays.

No, Jesus is the reason for a Holiday, Christmas. That's great. Jesus is not the reason for the Holidays, a collective term describing this season of many holidays for multiple religions. Jesus, for example, is not the reason for Hanukkah or Kwanzaa. Or pagan celebrations. You're projecting your religion onto the religious beliefs of others.

[poly_nightmare]

Being, a Christian, I don't really care. Say Happy Holidays all you want. If you want to say Merry Christmas say Merry Christmas. Say Happy Chanukah. Say Happy Kwanza. I always thought this was a time of happy for happiness and giving and caring. If people are so offended by what goes on at this time of year, then why don't we just stop celebrating the holidays in general. No More Christmas, NO more Chanukah, no more Kwanza. This is just sad sad sad.

[Bad Penny]

Honestly. Who is really falling for that rightwing attempt to demonize liberals and democrats by claiming that we are at war with Christmas? This is just another rightwing attempt at "say it three times and it's true."

I ain't even religious but my Christmas tree is up and the lights on my house are blinding. I appreciate the days off from work too. Me and all my liberal (and conservative) friends are totally into Christmas and the festivities surrounding it.

This is just another right wingnut attempt to create another diversion issue, to divide us all and take our minds off of more important things. They're the only ones really pushing this stupid fallacy.

Sure there's always a nutcase trying to do away with Christmas and nativity scenes, etc., but they do it for attention and only represent themselves.

From Mr. Liberal himself, (me) I wish you and yours a Very merry Christmas!

Ho! Ho! Ho!

I hope that got passed the curse filters. :lol:

[Aly Liz]

For some, but not for all.


I choose to celebrate "Christmas" as it was before the Christians commandeered it. You got a problem with that?

No one is making you celebrate Christmas their way - you simply are not going to be allowed to use the organs of the state to foist your way on anybody else.

Get over it.

Im just sick of all these people that have a problem with christians openly believing in Jesus. they need to get over it.

[Aly Liz]

No, Jesus is the reason for a Holiday, Christmas. That's great. Jesus is not the reason for the Holidays, a collective term describing this season of many holidays for multiple religions. Jesus, for example, is not the reason for Hanukkah or Kwanzaa. Or pagan celebrations. You're projecting your religion onto the religious beliefs of others.

you know what i ment.

[towski]

Im just sick of all these people that have a problem with christians openly believing in Jesus. they need to get over it.

Who has this problem? Are people protesting outside of your house of worship? Have they taken your bibles away? Have Christians been locked in some sort of internment camp? Oh, I know. The government took away the tax exempt status of churches, right? No? Hmmmm.

I imagine the number of people who "have a problem with christians openly believing in Jesus" is probably very very very small.

[Dangerrmouse]

you know what i ment.

No, what did you mean?

[Strel]

Im just sick of all these people that have a problem with christians openly believing in Jesus. they need to get over it.


And who would these people be? If you stood on a streetcorner, and were not otherwise breaking the law, and preached, and were arrested for it, who do you think would be raising hell that you were illegally arrested?

The ACLU, because that part is just as important as the other. Pray your head off! Just don't make my kids listen to it in a public school with the teacher leading the way. You don't get to indoctrinate my kids with my tax money. That's that law.

Now here's a newsflash for you, and no, not for your personally: some of us are getting kind of sick of being preached at, yes. So you will hear some flak back, and you will take it too, because that's our freedom of speech. You have the right to preach, I have the right to say it is bunk.

But neither of us can use the organs of the state to say it.

[Soren]

Who has this problem? Are people protesting outside of your house of worship? Have they taken your bibles away? Have Christians been locked in some sort of internment camp? Oh, I know. The government took away the tax exempt status of churches, right? No? Hmmmm.

I imagine the number of people who "have a problem with christians openly believing in Jesus" is probably very very very small.I can say definitely, having been a missionary who preached about Christ for two years here in the U.S. Plenty of people will tell you Christianity is not for them, but they don't usually begrudge anyone their right to free exercise of their religion.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Im just sick of all these people that have a problem with christians openly believing in Jesus. they need to get over it.

That's not their problem. Their problem is when those people force it upon others and force the state to promote their religion over other religions in direct violation of the 1st ammendement.

Furthermore as other have stated, Jesus and Christmas are only loosely related. Christmas (along with many other orthodox religious holidays) are pagan in origin. Jesus is believed to be born in sometime in April, not December. And the Puritans even outlawed Christmas in England and the Colonies for several years.

The more I talk to people like you, the more I realize that most Christians know little to nothing about the history of their religion.

And finally, there is one person, and only one person who can take your religion from you, yourself

On to other interestin things loosely related

ANYONE

Why is it that on average, Jews know more about their religion and its history then Christians or Muslims?

[Nuke the Oil]

Why is it that on average, Jews know more about their religion and its history then Christians or Muslims?

My guess would be that the lower number of followers of Judaism leads to there being less variance within the religion making individual beliefs more likely to be more coherent. Of course over here in Australia we do not have many Jews (I have not known any) so I am taking your implication at face value...

[Duo_Maxwell]

My guess would be that the lower number of followers of Judaism leads to there being less variance within the religion making individual beliefs more likely to be more coherent.

Possibly, that's one valid theory. But there is Kablaha (sp?) that is a variation of Juadism, even my non-Kablaha Jew friends know alot about it, yet my Christian friends (and those here) seems to know little or nothing about their religion. If one is going to believe, at least know about their belief and its history.

[Nuke the Oil]

Possibly, that's one valid theory. But there is Kablaha (sp?) that is a variation of Juadism, even my non-Kablaha Jew friends know alot about it, yet my Christian friends (and those here) seems to know little or nothing about their religion. If one is going to believe, at least know about their belief and its history.

Also it might have something to do with Judaism's strong link with culture, after all the word Jew can be used for both a follower of a religion and a person belonging to a certain culture, and the fact that it is not evangelical. It doesn't need to "sell itself" and can afford to be a little less loose with the facts. Again just speculation on my part...

[Aly Liz]

Why is it that on average, Jews know more about their religion and its history then Christians or Muslims?

I dont know much about Muslims but...

Being Christian implies that you believe and follow the word and teachings of Jesus. Now there are many sub religions of Christianity. (i.e. Roman Catholic, Orthodox Christians and Protestants).

Now a days, as more churches are built they are non-denominational. Non-denominational churches arent nearly as strict as a specific religion, therefor dont teach specific beliefs and traditions (i.e. fasting, passover, etc.).

So to say that Christians dont know much about their own religion is a very broad and farfetched statment. And whos to say that that statement is even true?

[heel31ok]

Jesus wasn't born in December, and there was already an annual party scheduled which the Christians essentially crashed and took over.

So no, Jesus is not the reason for the season. The tilting of the earth is the reason for the season, and "Christmas" is just another Pagan holiday commandeered by Christians because they cannot stand competition.
That is correct in that He was not born on DEC 25 and it has bothered me . But I do celebrate at this time and it is now called Christmas so as a Christian I will celebrate Christ. Hijacked sure, but to me Jesus is always the reason for every season.
this is a power struggle but in the end most will always call it Christmas, not just for religious purposes but for economic purposes because it is big business.which is not to my delight either.
There is nothing wrong with celebrating Christ at a certain time or date but as a Christian everyday is "Christmas" and is a gift. so during this time do noy let the hussle and bussle take away from that.

[Kong]

Christmas is no longer just a Christian holiday!

I am teaching some Japanese students who are of no particular religion at all. They love and celebrate Christmas; it is one of their favorite holidays. They love the lights, decorations, music and general happy feeling that comes along with it. What’s not to like? I enjoy it too. I have a Christmas tree but I am not a Christian but I love Christmas.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

[Duo_Maxwell]

Being Christian implies that you believe and follow the word and teachings of Jesus. Now there are many sub religions of Christianity. (i.e. Roman Catholic, Orthodox Christians and Protestants).

I never said that one had to know their history to be of a religion. I was merely commenting that many of one religion do not know their history in comparsion to other religions.


Now a days, as more churches are built they are non-denominational. Non-denominational churches arent nearly as strict as a specific religion, therefor dont teach specific beliefs and traditions (i.e. fasting, passover, etc.).

So? Merely because one does not preach a specific brand of Christanity does not mean they are to be ignorant of their general religion's history.


So to say that Christians dont know much about their own religion is a very broad and farfetched statment. And whos to say that that statement is even true?

Well, you for example thought that Christmas was because of Christ. That's hysterical. Christmas is a stolen pagan holiday. In my time here, few Christans knew what the Council of Trent was (which is really disturbing), few knew about the early history of the Catholic Church, few knew about the great schism, few knew about the early rituals, few knew about the editing of the bible by the Catholic Church...I can do this for hours naming historical points in Christanity few Christans know about.

Btw: ignoring refutations you don't like doesn't help you.

[Strel]

That is correct in that He was not born on DEC 25 and it has bothered me.

Why should knowing the truth bother you? Christmas was a pagan holiday commandeered by the early Church. This is a fact. I don't have a problem with it except when people try to deny reality and act as if this is not the case.

But I do celebrate at this time and it is now called Christmas so as a Christian I will celebrate Christ. Hijacked sure, but to me Jesus is always the reason for every season.

Good for you! You have the right to worship as you wish, thanks, in part, to organizations like the ACLU. Is this ironic, or just a result of the Christian Right perpetuating lies about such organizations?

this is a power struggle but in the end most will always call it Christmas, not just for religious purposes but for economic purposes because it is big business.which is not to my delight either.

It is not a "power struggle". What is being taken away from you? The ability to violate the law by using the state to advance your religion? That's not a right you ever had to begin with.

[Void Image]

It is not a "power struggle". What is being taken away from you? The ability to violate the law by using the state to advance your religion? That's not a right you ever had to begin with.

Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!