Jesus, Mary, and Leanardo **-Vinci

[Captain America]

Did anyone get to see that documentary on ABC last night?

I all but proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus was married to, or at least "kept company" ;) with Mary Magdelene.

I also laid out the factual existance by the early Roman church to cover that up.

2000 years later and people are STILL learning about that Jesus!:angel:

[NetxMan]

I didn't get to see it, but I wanted to.

I do though disagree the Jesus "kept company" with anyone. I don't find anything in the Bible that shows an evidence of that kind.

[Captain America]

I don't find anything in the Bible that shows an evidence of that kind.

EXACTLY! That is what made this documentary so interesting. It showed the evidence of such in the other gospels that the first church had destroyed and the documented evidence of the church's cover-up to supress this evidence.

Remember.... the "bible" was compiled, written, proofread, and approved by the early church of Rome. I realize that we were taught to think that the bible was written by the very hand of God, but lot's not lose sight of the fact that it was not.

[Blueangel]

Are we going down 'The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail' route here?

My ex husband is descended from The Knights Templar, so I'm familiar with some of the concepts. Such as....
Jesus had twin brothers,
The Knights Templar protected Jesus' direct descendants, the most recent being a famous French film director.

[Captain America]

That is exactly where it is headed Blueangel. Turns out those ol' Freemason's might know a thing or two. This documentary let a lot of their historical knowlege (that they have been keeping under wraps for centuries) "out of the bag" so to speak. No wonder they are so secretive. This knowlege got them killed centuries ago when the Roman Church (latter Roman Catholic) was burning books and people who had the knowlege of these gospels that contradicted Constitines newly created religion. After all, they were actually there when all this was supposed to have taken place. But you know what they say. The victor gets to write the history.:rolleyes:

Perhaps this explains a lot about the Catholic "anti-mason" stance/position. Their (Masonic) knowlege could have put them out of business centuries ago.

It seems that DaVinci was a member of a select group similar in form to Masonic organizations and he tried to communicate the forbidden knowlege in his paintings. Specifically the "Last Supper". Look close at that painting. It is revealed that the person supposedly sitting next to Jesus is a woman.

There's a whole lot more to it than that. A little investigative work has pretty much revealed that, without a shadow of a doubt, that jesus kept company with Mary Magdelene and sired offspring. At least, this proves that "Jushua' ben Yehweh" aka "Jesus Christ" actually did exist. However, it also reveals the manipulations of the gospels and the fraudulent compilation of the bible. But moden man was beginning to already figure that out anyways so that's no real biggie.

The documentary actually interviewed living decendants of Jesus.

I hope they air it again. It was a phenominal documentary.

[Missouri Mule]

Yes, how did the Bible come into existence? Certain books were put in and others left out. CA put me onto the "Gospel of Thomas" which was not put in for obvious reasons. That's a real eye opener.

The thing that has always bothered me about the Christian religion is that "God" somehow chose to reveal himself and his "son" as he was supposed to have done. If you want men to follow a certain path in life you don't go around making parables and riddles to the common man. You set forth a clear and understandable message. You do this and that will happen and so forth. If God were a CEO he would have been bounced out on his ear a long time ago.

As I understand it, religion is just about dead in Europe and it is slowly dying in the U.S. Islam is still growing but at what price? Ultimately mankind will have to face the fact that it has been sold a fraudulent bill of goods. And sooner or later it will get a one way ticket to oblivion.

[JD3]

A bill of goods? Maybe. As a Catholic, I may be less sure than you.

But I will say this, something prevelent in a lot of Catholic writing, this stuff isn't as clear cut as many would like it to be. Books were left out. Changes were made to the text (King James), and so on and so forth. Anyone who stands up and claims they have all the answers should be dismissed. It isn't easy.

But I do accept the general threme of the New Testement. It is one of compassion. The law is the law, but it should be tempered by compassion.

That all said, it was very interesting show. Just reaffirmed my existing beliefs concerning religion.

[Blueangel]

Originally posted by Captain America
Perhaps this explains a lot about the Catholic "anti-mason" stance/position. Their (Masonic) knowlege could have put them out of business centuries ago. Grrrrr at the Masons:mad:

My grandad was Catholic and married the daughter of a Mason. He refused to become a mason even though he, and my dad, were put under a lot of pressure to do so.

Also, in my last job, it was obligitory that you were/became a Mason to reach management level. It's only in the last few years that people outside of the Masons were promoted.
How's that for an international company?

[Captain America]

Muley, just 30 years ago, your comment would have landed you a cross burning brightly in your front yard. 50 years ago, you would have been ex-communicated from society and your children would have been ostracized. 100 years ago, you have been tarred and feathered, if not hung. 500 years ago, you would have been burnt at the stake.

Funny how time changes things....

PS... God loves you.:rolleyes:

[Missouri Mule]

I like Lance Armstrong's view about religion. Essentially he said that when he meets "God" he will tell him that he did his best and that "God" will have to accept him the way he is. That's more or less my own philosophy.

[Captain America]

Blueangel... not to be disrespectful but...phoooey.

The Masons have a STRICT policy preventing recruitment. No F&A mason is going to pressure anybody to join. period. In fact the opposite is true. To be a mason, you have to ask a mason to be a mason. And even then, you are put through an intense investigation to see that you are of good character, a non-felon and not an atheist before you would even be considered for membership.

Religion and politics are taboo topics of conversation in a masonic lodge.

Masons donate millions of dollars per day to worthy charities.

The masons I know are of the highest caliber of character.

Most of the people I know who are anti-mason. I have come to learn, are usually those rejected from membership (fox and the grapes) or somebody who swallowed anti-mason propaganda, hook line and sinker and have no actual first hand knowlege of the fraternity. Or, they are trying to sell a book. Or, they are a religious person who believes that rightousness cannot be achieved without being a follower of his particular faith. Even Catholics have their "anti-Catholic nuts" so I am sure you can relate to that.

I didn't want to turn this into a Mason thread, but if you are going to slam an organization, you should first know the facts. However, I do recommend that you do NOT seek out facts if you wish to remain a devoted Catholic. I believe that faith and facts do not always mix well.

However, in defense of the profane and the unknowing, if Masons were a bit less secretive, more people would know the real deal about them so the wrong impression that some folks have about them is, in many ways, their own fault.

[JD3]

Originally posted by Missouri Mule
I like Lance Armstrong's view about religion. Essentially he said that when he meets "God" he will tell him that he did his best and that "God" will have to accept him the way he is. That's more or less my own philosophy.

I like this. I may borrow it myself.

[Blueangel]

Originally posted by Captain America
Blueangel... not to be disrespectful but...phoooey.

The Masons have a STRICT policy preventing recruitment. No F&A mason is going to pressure anybody to join. period. In fact the opposite is true. To be a mason, you have to ask a mason to be a mason. And even then, you are put through an intense investigation to see that you are of good character, a non-felon and not an atheist before you would even be considered for membership. With respect, either you have misread me, or you don't think I'm entitled to an opinion?

My knowledge of Masons is from personal experience. My father's family was split down the middle...Catholics and Masons.
From an early age, I knew there was friction. It was only when I was present at one particular arguement, that I realised how deep the feelings ran.

Perhaps U.S. Masons behave differently to their U.K. counterparts?

You might also note that, traditionally, the King or highest ranking male member of the Royal family, was head of the Masons here.
Prince Charles is the first male heir to refuse.

Any of the 650 staff that I worked with, would be aware that the management were Masons. They didn't hide the fact.
I don't believe that kind of privilige should be apparent in the workplace.
I'm fully aware of the selection process and know people who have been black-balled.

Lastly, though I was brought up a Catholic, I consider myself to be agnostic.

I have my experiences and you have yours.
Enough said.

[Captain America]

I did not mean to imply that you do not have a right to your own opinion as you certainly do. I am sorry if I came across that way. I am not familiar with UK Masonry and for all I know you may be very correct. My experience with US Masons is that they are definitely the cream of the crop as far as being good people goes.

As you said, we each have our own experiences.

Here in America, if I want to buy a dozen apples, and a mason were selling those apples, and he wanted a dollar a dozen and his competitor, a non-mason, wanted the same dollar for a dozen, I would buy from the mason. Apples for apples.

BUT... if the non-mason offered me 13 apples for a dollar, I would buy from him. Make sense?

You are right, special favor should not be granted just because of fraternal ties. If it is "six of one and half a dozen of the other," or a "horse a piece" (as we say in the Midwest,) I can understand fraternal ties and favor. But one should not be passed over, if they are better suited, simply because they are not in the fraternity.

[Blueangel]

I'd buy the best apples, regardless of who was selling them ;)

[Captain America]

The term "apples for apples", here in America, means that the apples were the same. No difference between them at all. I should have explained that perhaps.

[DRMIZER]

Originally posted by Captain America
Did anyone get to see that documentary on ABC last night?

I all but proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus was married to, or at least "kept company" ;) with Mary Magdelene.

I also laid out the factual existance by the early Roman church to cover that up.

2000 years later and people are STILL learning about that Jesus!:angel:

You guys are sooooooo bad! :lol: :devil: :rofl: :clap:

[lawman]

Okay. Dunno none o' them Masons, so I'll keep my trap shut 'bout 'dat.

As for the rest... I didn't watch the documentary, but I have read the '80s nonfiction bestseller Holy Blood, Holy Grail that laid out a lot of these theories (succinctly summarized as "the bloodline of Christ") in exhaustive detail, as well as sundry other books on the topic, not least the recent (entertaining but overrated) hit novel The DaVinci Code, which has thrust all this into the spotlight again to the point where TV networks are doing "news" specials about it.

Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln made a pretty compelling case in HBHG, but hardly an ironclad one; it's still just a theory. One thing it certainly doesn't do is prove Jesus' historical existence; that's still a matter of considerable scholarly debate, ranging from the various camps of Apologists to the middle-ground Jesus Seminar cohort to the dedicated skeptics. (I'd recommend George Wells' The Jesus Myth and/or his earlier The Historical Evidence for Jesus if you're looking for a truly exhaustive scholarly look at the subject; Wells does fall decidedly on the skeptical end of the spectrum, albeit not as much as he once did, but his work is fascinating and intellectually rigorous.)

One thing we can all safely conclude from this is that to whatever extent the historical Jesus lived and taught, we certainly can't consider the Bible to be a reliable source. As all but the most zealous now admit, after all, the New Testament was assembled c. 325 CE at the Council of Nicaea by some very politically motivated editors, who had no qualms about redacting and revising to fit their agendas, and who weren't working from first-generation documents to begin with. As it stands today, it doesn't contain a lot of what people think it does, and what it does contain is often contradictory, ambiguous, factually erroneous, or simply very hard to interpret without a lot more historical context than the book itself supplies.

Nevertheless, I'll concur with JD3 that there are useful nuggets of ethical wisdom to be gleaned from it... though not necessarily any more than from quite a number of other belief systems, whether older or newer, religious or secular.

[DRMIZER]

The most authentic, scholarly reference I've ever read on the books of the Bible is the Abingdon Bible Commentary. It takes a great deal of the mystic from the book and puts it into rational, educated context. It underscores the statements Lawman has provided.

[Missouri Mule]

Besides CA, are there any particular Biblical scholars today who do not have an agenda that could provide a consise history and judgment of what really happened? It has been my experience that religion is so bound up with personal beliefs that I can never be sure if it is factual or just fanciful.

[DRMIZER]

Missouri Mule, I have to agree. The gospels were written approximately 70 years after the crucifixion of Christ. That's a lot of tale telling before getting it in writing.

[Captain America]

Inventing christianity was a difficult task. They (Constitine et al) had many other religions, beliefs, cults that could not be ignored in it's conception. In order to be inclusive, (politically correct) they had to take all these ****-eyed religions, take their beliefs. throw them in a hat, mix them up and then write a story that they could sell to the ignorant masses.

Thus, came about the "Holy Bible." Then King James had to go and muddle the water up even more by re-writing the bible to be conducive to Monarchy rather than the Roman Empire. And who knows how many times it has been translated since. But all the translations in the world will not negate the fact that the entire thing is just a bunch of religious mumbo jumbo.

Modern man, at least the thinking ones, do not swallow much of this hogwash anymore. Since being skeptical, these days, does not land you in the middle of the town bonfire, many people are getting bolder and exclaiming "The Emperor has no clothes!"

Churches are closing. Religious nuts are being recognized for being exactly that. Nuts.

I propose that in 100 years, religion as we know it, will be in the history books and not in the pulpit.

There are many agnostic bible scholars I am sure. Just as there might be a lot of scholars specializing in early english fairy tales. I think that the term "religious scholar" is somewhat an oxymoron as I cannot see how one could be a scholar and religious at the same time.

[Missouri Mule]

That's kind of the way I see it. But then we have a further problem. Where DID we come from? How can something come out of nothing? If "God" exists" how did he get "born?" If he wasn't "born", how can he exist before time? If he doesn't exist, what created the something that constitutes the universe? The whole thing boggles my mind. I would really like to know.

I was never a great student of astronomy/science so perhaps there are some very logical answers but I've never seen it explained to my satisfaction.

[Cedars]

Originally posted by Captain America
Did anyone get to see that documentary on ABC last night?

I all but proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus was married to, or at least "kept company" ;) with Mary Magdelene.

I also laid out the factual existance by the early Roman church to cover that up.

2000 years later and people are STILL learning about that Jesus!:angel:

I didn't see the show you mentioned; but it sounds like your "logic" is that if it's on TV, it must be true!

[Captain America]

Unfortunantly B-dog, you and I are not put into this world long enough to come to undeniable conclusion on the questions you pose. Might I suggest that we accept the fact that regardless of how we got here, we got here. Accept that fact the regardless of how and why the sun comes up every morning, it just does.

This will free up a lot of time to allow us to enjoy the time we do have.

Even if it were feasable to logically come up with the answers... then what? Would it matter?

[Missouri Mule]

I agree but even some scientists/astronomers search for these ultimate answers and can't come up with anything better than some "higher power."

If there is a "higher power" then I think he has a warped sense of humor.

[Cedars]

Originally posted by Missouri Mule
Yes, how did the Bible come into existence? Certain books were put in and others left out. CA put me onto the "Gospel of Thomas" which was not put in for obvious reasons. That's a real eye opener.

The thing that has always bothered me about the Christian religion is that "God" somehow chose to reveal himself and his "son" as he was supposed to have done. If you want men to follow a certain path in life you don't go around making parables and riddles to the common man. You set forth a clear and understandable message. You do this and that will happen and so forth. If God were a CEO he would have been bounced out on his ear a long time ago.

As I understand it, religion is just about dead in Europe and it is slowly dying in the U.S. Islam is still growing but at what price? Ultimately mankind will have to face the fact that it has been sold a fraudulent bill of goods. And sooner or later it will get a one way ticket to oblivion.
The Bible came into existence through the followers of Jesus. The books in the Bible were selected by the Magisterium who were guided by the Holy Spirit.

God only enlightens as much as we are able to be enlightened. All things come to light in due time. You also need to understand that the authors of the books of the Bible were living in different times with different customs and different manners of speaking.

[Cedars]

Missouri Mule, there's an interesting book out there called, "Prove it! God!" that was actually written for teenagers. I don't know if it would answer all your questions, but it's a good start.

[Cedars]

Originally posted by Missouri Mule
I like Lance Armstrong's view about religion. Essentially he said that when he meets "God" he will tell him that he did his best and that "God" will have to accept him the way he is. That's more or less my own philosophy.
God will know whether he actually did his best or not.

[Cedars]

Sorry if I sound preachy, don't mean to be; but religion is a very fascinating subject for me.

[Cedars]

Should have read, "don't mean to BE"!

[Blueangel]

Originally posted by Captain America
There are many agnostic bible scholars I am sure. Just as there might be a lot of scholars specializing in early english fairy tales. I think that the term "religious scholar" is somewhat an oxymoron as I cannot see how one could be a scholar and religious at the same time. If you put Bible scholar together with scholar/writer of fairy tales, you'd come up with J.R.R.Tolkien.

There is a school of thought, with enclaves all over the World, that Tolkien based 'Lord Of The Rings' on the New Testament.
Tolkien was, undeniably, a scholar and wrote one of the greatest works of fiction of modern times.
He was a member of a writing group, known as The Inklings, who often studied The Bible and took inspiration from it to write some of our most popular fiction. Another member being C.S.Lewis, writer of 'The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe'. Note how Aslem is resurrected in that work?

I know a Franciscan priest who is an avid member of The Salzburg Inklings. It wouldn't surprise me if you find there is a group of Inkling scholars near you.

[Missouri Mule]

Cedars: You could, if you like, edit your other post and delete the one correcting it. It's quite easy to do.

[Cedars]

Thanks, Mo. Mule. I figured out how to edit but I don't see how to delete?

[Missouri Mule]

Should be on the top left of your edit screen. Just check it and go.

[lawman]

MM-

Just a quickie here. If you're really interested in a layman-accessible summary of the best current science on the origins of life, the universe, and everything, I highly recommend you check out www.talkorigins.org. It's an encyclopedic, wonderfully organized archive of the best content from the Usenet group dedicated to those very topics.

[Missouri Mule]

Wow. That's a great site. Spinoza would have felt right at home. I'll have to look around and ponder their thoughts.

[xexon]

The Gnostics believe Mary was a 13th apostle. And that he shared knowledge with her that he did not reveal to the other 12.

I've read the Nag Hammadi scriptures several times. They are fascinating.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html



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[DRMIZER]

Beliefs are like. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .never mind.

[xexon]

Are like...soap bubbles.

Beautiful to behold, but gone in an instant.



x

[DRMIZER]

Yea, that's it, that the ticket!

[Sandy]

For heaven's sake read the book! "The DaVinci Code" is a breathtaking mystery that is based around what is called The DaVinci Code. There was a series of books written at the same time the New testament was put together and several of the books added many interesting facts to the life of Jesus.

However, the Christians had already laid out their laws for their sects and could never have lived with Jesus having a wife and a possible child. The Book of Thomas is where this information can be found. My grandmother found it years ago in the archives of the Salt Lake City Temple and told me the story.

This is just background to a gripping mystery that takes you all over the painting of the renaissance period.

For the Catholics, Dan Brown wrote "Angels & Demons" that again uses Christian Catholics as the background for a chilling murder mystery that will keep you on the edge of your chair. No part of the Vatican has not been covered in glowing detail.

Dan Brown has three more books using the same leading character in the first two books. Many of us can hardly wait!!!

My daughter calls them Harry Potter for Adults!!!

[xexon]

One of my favorite movies is "The Last Temptation of Christ".

The soundtrack goes really well with a couple glasses of wine.




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[Sandy]

I haven't seen that film. Will look for it on DVD and sip a cup of tea. I'm big on music and sound tracks are of interest to me.

[xexon]

The soundtrack is made by Peter Gabriel. He used alot of musicians from around the world. It's called "Passion".

It's a good synthesis of old world/new world music.



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[Sandy]

Is it out on CD? Sounds like something I would like.

I managed a small music group in San Luis Obispo called "The Early Music Consort" and we did a lot of old pre-Bach stuff as well as Renaissance music. The musicians used ancient instruments and it was a grand experience.

I was crazy about the sound track from "The Mission" although I couldn't sit through the whole film as it was too bloody.

[Sandy]

Xexon, I just ordered the CD and should receive it in a week. I'll let you know if I like it. thanks

[Sandy]

xexon. The CD arrived and I am playing it on my computer now. It seems to encompass many old Hebrew themes with a little African stuff included. I am enjoying it a great deal. Thanks for the suggestion. The use of horns and strings is great!