Eating out of garbage dumpsters

[green lantern]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11154276/


These people don‘t eat out of dumpsters because they‘re poor and desperate. They do it to prove a political point. You wouldn‘t expect someone to choose a lifestyle that involved eating out of dumpsters. Kind of seems like something you do as a desperate last resort. But there‘s an entire society of people who willingly get their meals out of the garbage. They‘re called freegans, and they say they have a reason for doing it. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[The_Comedian]

Their message is valid and maybe it is even needed that someone points out that problem.
But eating out of dumpsters doesn't necessarily strengthen your argument, imho; though it shows that they are serious folks.

[Simba]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11154276/


These people don‘t eat out of dumpsters because they‘re poor and desperate. They do it to prove a political point. You wouldn‘t expect someone to choose a lifestyle that involved eating out of dumpsters. Kind of seems like something you do as a desperate last resort. But there‘s an entire society of people who willingly get their meals out of the garbage. They‘re called freegans, and they say they have a reason for doing it. :eek: :eek: :eek:

We built a multi-million dollar shelter for the homeless downtown in my city. We still have them living in card board shanty towns in the woods behind the elementary school. We hearded them up, and back they went. Won't even go to use the showers, at least the bulk of them.

I don't want to give the place up, but what does that say about the whole matter. I delivered ten cases of soup last week from my youngest daughter's food drive at school, but you still see them picking though the garbage, pushing their carts, and returning to the woods at twilight in droves as if slow moving extras from a Dawn of the Dead episode.

I wonder, in the old days, if hobos on trains just liked being hobos. Two of the homeless I know here are a former well to do lawyer and a retired Marine First Sergeant. Had articles on them and all telling there story. I think that to some people on the street, what we think as normal is not acceptable to them. Doesn't mean they are castaways from a Gilligans Island rerun.

[BugMan]

We built a multi-million dollar shelter for the homeless downtown in my city. We still have them living in card board shanty towns in the woods behind the elementary school. We hearded them up, and back they went. Won't even go to use the showers, at least the bulk of them.

I don't want to give the place up, but what does that say about the whole matter. I delivered ten cases of soup last week from my youngest daughter's food drive at school, but you still see them picking though the garbage, pushing their carts, and returning to the woods at twilight in droves as if slow moving extras from a Dawn of the Dead episode.

I wonder, in the old days, if hobos on trains just liked being hobos. Two of the homeless I know here are a former well to do lawyer and a retired Marine First Sergeant. Had articles on them and all telling there story. I think that to some people on the street, what we think as normal is not acceptable to them. Doesn't mean they are castaways from a Gilligans Island rerun.


It doesn't apply to ALL of them - but the fact is that homelessness, for MOST of these people, is a CHOICE.

We can throw millions of dollars at this "problem" in an attempt to ease our guilt, but in the end, they're still going to be doing EXACTLY what they're doing right now.

It is their CHOICE. And when you think about it... we live in a free country, and they're free to do this, even though it makes very little sense to us.

[Jray573]

Simba,

I had the misfortune of spending two years on the streets myself. I'm no expert on the subject, but I saw quite a bit during that period.

I actually stayed at a place called the Urban Peak in Denver. It was set up for kids under the age of 21 and I think they could hold about 60 people or so. I know we had nights where it was nearly full, but I doubt it could hold 1/3 of the homeless below the age of 21 in the city. There were a lot of them. Some really don't want help. I visited the city about 2 years later and saw many old faces. I was visiting on my drive from Great Lakes to San Diego after I completed ET "A" school for the Navy. These guys were still sitting there asking passer-by's for change.

I can tell you that without the Urban Peak my life would have been far more difficult. I went there and recieved counselling, and they had programs for finding jobs and getting your GED. I used all of those. They had doctors that would come out and test you for things like TB and programs to help those with jobs to get into low-rent apartments. Some of them were actually owned by the Urban Peak. It was really an amazing program.

They would go out at night and find homeless people, offer them sandwiches and needle kits while telling them about the peak. That's about all they would do outside of the building itself, because you can only do so much for those that don't want to help themselves.

Keep it up with your homeless shelter, and don't worry about those that don't come. Just do what you can for those that want to do something else with their lives, and don't feel bad when you see a guy asking for change on the corner. Just tell him where the food is, and let him decide if he wants it.

[Simba]

Simba,

I had the misfortune of spending two years on the streets myself. I'm no expert on the subject, but I saw quite a bit during that period.

I actually stayed at a place called the Urban Peak in Denver. It was set up for kids under the age of 21 and I think they could hold about 60 people or so. I know we had nights where it was nearly full, but I doubt it could hold 1/3 of the homeless below the age of 21 in the city. There were a lot of them. Some really don't want help. I visited the city about 2 years later and saw many old faces. I was visiting on my drive from Great Lakes to San Diego after I completed ET "A" school for the Navy. These guys were still sitting there asking passer-by's for change.

I can tell you that without the Urban Peak my life would have been far more difficult. I went there and recieved counselling, and they had programs for finding jobs and getting your GED. I used all of those. They had doctors that would come out and test you for things like TB and programs to help those with jobs to get into low-rent apartments. Some of them were actually owned by the Urban Peak. It was really an amazing program.

They would go out at night and find homeless people, offer them sandwiches and needle kits while telling them about the peak. That's about all they would do outside of the building itself, because you can only do so much for those that don't want to help themselves.

Keep it up with your homeless shelter, and don't worry about those that don't come. Just do what you can for those that want to do something else with their lives, and don't feel bad when you see a guy asking for change on the corner. Just tell him where the food is, and let him decide if he wants it.

Fair enough. Thanks for that insight.

[The_Penguin]

Simba,

I had the misfortune of spending two years on the streets myself. I'm no expert on the subject, but I saw quite a bit during that period.

I actually stayed at a place called the Urban Peak in Denver. It was set up for kids under the age of 21 and I think they could hold about 60 people or so. I know we had nights where it was nearly full, but I doubt it could hold 1/3 of the homeless below the age of 21 in the city. There were a lot of them. Some really don't want help. I visited the city about 2 years later and saw many old faces. I was visiting on my drive from Great Lakes to San Diego after I completed ET "A" school for the Navy. These guys were still sitting there asking passer-by's for change.

I can tell you that without the Urban Peak my life would have been far more difficult. I went there and recieved counselling, and they had programs for finding jobs and getting your GED. I used all of those. They had doctors that would come out and test you for things like TB and programs to help those with jobs to get into low-rent apartments. Some of them were actually owned by the Urban Peak. It was really an amazing program.

They would go out at night and find homeless people, offer them sandwiches and needle kits while telling them about the peak. That's about all they would do outside of the building itself, because you can only do so much for those that don't want to help themselves.

Keep it up with your homeless shelter, and don't worry about those that don't come. Just do what you can for those that want to do something else with their lives, and don't feel bad when you see a guy asking for change on the corner. Just tell him where the food is, and let him decide if he wants it.
Just curious, what type of shelter was this? Was it run by a private organization or a local/state government?

I've never had the misfortune that you did, it's good to see you make it out ok :) .

[Jray573]

It can actually be found at this website. (http://www.urbanpeak.org/) It gives a pretty good description of what they do there.

I'm not sure if they had government funding. I know they relied heavily on private donations. I was asked to attend a dinner once with some of the people who gave fairly large donations. I guess it was one of those $100 plate dinners, and a table 8 paid for the two of us from the shelter to eat there. It was a pretty odd time in my life, but I remember them asking a bunch of questions about how effective it was and what I had gotten out of it. It seems like the guy running it said they received some money from the government, but not nearly enough to run the program. I could be wrong though, like I said, it was a fairly odd time in my life.

[serenity]

It doesn't apply to ALL of them - but the fact is that homelessness, for MOST of these people, is a CHOICE.

Nope. But self-righteous, sanctimonious top-down class warfare stuff like this remark certainly IS a choice.

[Confucius]

Justa bunch of hippies of yah as me

[BugMan]

Nope. But self-righteous, sanctimonious top-down class warfare stuff like this remark certainly IS a choice.
Prove it wrong.

[whatever]

jrey, how did you become homeless, if you don't mind my asking? if you feel uncomfortable divulging it, don't bother, i understand.
if a homeless person were sitting there asking for a change, what does he think of the people going by avoiding his eyes? i used to go around collecting donation in a box for charities, and i can tell you i feel like cursing the people who don't even have the gut to look me in the eyes and say no. but that's a different thing. i'm just wondering.

[Jray573]

whatever,

Until recently I could have given you hundreds of reasons. 8 years later it seems I have to give it only one, and that happens to be private. Sorry, but stuff gets embarrassing when you have to take accountability for your actions :p If you spend an hour or two talking to a bunch of homeless people, you will most likely run into others just like me.


As for the second question. If you are giving homeless people money the only person you are helping is yourself. You sleep better at night while they continue to earn a living making you feel guilty. People don't look them in the eyes because they either feel guilty for doing it, or they don't feel that they have a reason to. I know I don't look most people in the eyes when I'm walking down the street, and the only ones I know that get offended are those asking for something that belongs to me.

Would you give a heroin addict free heroin because he asks you? What about crack or alcohol? I promise you they already know how to get it, so giving them money isn't much different. If they aren't looking for drugs, they should be in a shelter trying to get food, clothing, and shelter. Either way, giving them money enables them to stay there.

I got off work one night to find my step-sister and her boyfriend asking for change. It was cold and they always refused to stay at the peak. That's another story, but the reason I mention is that they were trying to get enough money for a hotel room. It was late and they had somewhere around $2. After some protest and refusal on their part to go to the Peak I said screw it and handed them my coat and hat. I walked down the street wearing a t-shirt and jeans freezing my butt off asking people for money so I could have a warm place to stay that night. Within 15 minutes I walked back with over $50 which was plenty of money for a hotel and we even got to eat a few snacks. I told them if they are going to waste their time out here they could at least give those suckers what the want. The thought that they just saved your life. I hated asking for money. Apparently that was part of my problem. I never liked asking others for help, and used a shelter that offered them with no strings attached. I rarely asked people for money, but I can promise you I never once needed it, and I always made the people I ask believe I did. Don't be a sucker, if you really want to help, donate to the shelters that help those who want it.

[whatever]

whatever,

Until recently I could have given you hundreds of reasons. 8 years later it seems I have to give it only one, and that happens to be private. Sorry, but stuff gets embarrassing when you have to take accountability for your actions :p If you spend an hour or two talking to a bunch of homeless people, you will most likely run into others just like me.


As for the second question. If you are giving homeless people money the only person you are helping is yourself. You sleep better at night while they continue to earn a living making you feel guilty. People don't look them in the eyes because they either feel guilty for doing it, or they don't feel that they have a reason to. I know I don't look most people in the eyes when I'm walking down the street, and the only ones I know that get offended are those asking for something that belongs to me.

Would you give a heroin addict free heroin because he asks you? What about crack or alcohol? I promise you they already know how to get it, so giving them money isn't much different. If they aren't looking for drugs, they should be in a shelter trying to get food, clothing, and shelter. Either way, giving them money enables them to stay there.

I got off work one night to find my step-sister and her boyfriend asking for change. It was cold and they always refused to stay at the peak. That's another story, but the reason I mention is that they were trying to get enough money for a hotel room. It was late and they had somewhere around $2. After some protest and refusal on their part to go to the Peak I said screw it and handed them my coat and hat. I walked down the street wearing a t-shirt and jeans freezing my butt off asking people for money so I could have a warm place to stay that night. Within 15 minutes I walked back with over $50 which was plenty of money for a hotel and we even got to eat a few snacks. I told them if they are going to waste their time out here they could at least give those suckers what the want. The thought that they just saved your life. I hated asking for money. Apparently that was part of my problem. I never liked asking others for help, and used a shelter that offered them with no strings attached. I rarely asked people for money, but I can promise you I never once needed it, and I always made the people I ask believe I did. Don't be a sucker, if you really want to help, donate to the shelters that help those who want it.

the problem is I am a sucker. the other day i just bought a KFC take away, and at the corner was a guy with torn shirt just sitting there, the day was bloody cold, and i can't help feeling guilty that i'm eating something nice and he's freezing in the cold. but on the other hand i feel guilty when i give them money too, on top of knowing that i'm being a sucker. i certainly don't feel like a saint for giving money to them. so now i'm trying to balance it.

you know i'll never understand, i could never stand to ask people for money. though, it's great that you finally get out of it and make a life for yourself. :flowers:

[BugMan]

whatever,

Until recently I could have given you hundreds of reasons. 8 years later it seems I have to give it only one, and that happens to be private. Sorry, but stuff gets embarrassing when you have to take accountability for your actions :p If you spend an hour or two talking to a bunch of homeless people, you will most likely run into others just like me.


As for the second question. If you are giving homeless people money the only person you are helping is yourself. You sleep better at night while they continue to earn a living making you feel guilty. People don't look them in the eyes because they either feel guilty for doing it, or they don't feel that they have a reason to. I know I don't look most people in the eyes when I'm walking down the street, and the only ones I know that get offended are those asking for something that belongs to me.

Would you give a heroin addict free heroin because he asks you? What about crack or alcohol? I promise you they already know how to get it, so giving them money isn't much different. If they aren't looking for drugs, they should be in a shelter trying to get food, clothing, and shelter. Either way, giving them money enables them to stay there.

I got off work one night to find my step-sister and her boyfriend asking for change. It was cold and they always refused to stay at the peak. That's another story, but the reason I mention is that they were trying to get enough money for a hotel room. It was late and they had somewhere around $2. After some protest and refusal on their part to go to the Peak I said screw it and handed them my coat and hat. I walked down the street wearing a t-shirt and jeans freezing my butt off asking people for money so I could have a warm place to stay that night. Within 15 minutes I walked back with over $50 which was plenty of money for a hotel and we even got to eat a few snacks. I told them if they are going to waste their time out here they could at least give those suckers what the want. The thought that they just saved your life. I hated asking for money. Apparently that was part of my problem. I never liked asking others for help, and used a shelter that offered them with no strings attached. I rarely asked people for money, but I can promise you I never once needed it, and I always made the people I ask believe I did. Don't be a sucker, if you really want to help, donate to the shelters that help those who want it.


Excellent points!
And congrats on your personal victory of getting off the streets.

[serenity]

Prove it wrong.

:)

Yeah, nice try.

I was responding to an ugly, outrageously stupid and vile and self-congratulatory and immoral comment: that "most" homeless people are so by "choice."

<MOD EDIT> OFFENSIVE GENERALIZATION

Second, as that comment was made first, and I was merely responding to it like a sane person, that's another reason why it needs to be proved.

So, Bugman, perhaps you'd like to "prove" that homelessness is a "choice"?

I await your response.

[BugMan]

:)

Yeah, nice try.

I was responding to an ugly, outrageously stupid and vile and self-congratulatory and immoral comment: that "most" homeless people are so by "choice."

Now, first of all, that goes against all common sense (something that the contemporary Right loves to preach, while spitting on other folk), so in that sense, it needs to be proven, not its denial.

Second, as that comment was made first, and I was merely responding to it like a sane person, that's another reason why it needs to be proved.

So, Bugman, perhaps you'd like to "prove" that homelessness is a "choice"?

I await your response.


Let me repeat myself: MOST PEOPLE ARE HOMELESS BY CHOICE.

Have you read ANYTHING Jray573 has written here? Apparently not.

I deal with these "homeless" people - at my office - on a regular basis. In fact, we dealt with another young lady just this morning. (You can believe me or not, I really couldn't care less.)

How do I know these people are "career homeless & transients"?
1. By the way they approach you and talk to you. Career homeless people DEMAND help, money, etc. They have no shame.
2. By their stories they tell. There are basically 3 "sob stories" people will tell - with very, very little variation from the standard format. A. I've just been robbed. B. I'm on my way to a new job in _____. C. My boyfriend/girlfriend just beat me up and kicked me out of my house and...
3. The same people will come to the same "places of help" at the same time every year. They run a cycle. For instance, they will NOT spend much time in the North during the winter. But in the summer, it's a steady stream of them.


I could go on and on, but you don't care anyway. You're free to keep believing what you want to believe. Give the "poor homeless guy" a dollar, as you drive by, if it makes you feel better. But just know that the money you give him has about a 99% chance of being spent on alcohol or drugs - which are the very things that he needs the LEAST.

[serenity]

Let me repeat myself: MOST PEOPLE ARE HOMELESS BY CHOICE.

Then let me repeat myself: YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.


Have you read ANYTHING Jray573 has written here? Apparently not.

Jaywray's personal anecdote doesn't symbolize the plight of the homeless.

That is to say--imagine this if you're able--each situation is unique.

Now, I KNOW you don't believe that--because you listen to and read simpleton immoralists who inform you what political stances you should hold--and I KNOW you don't believe that because of your sweet-natured, caring, sympathetic little remarks about the "sob stories" you get...which you also consider "proof".



But ok...since, by your own standards, personal and unverifiable anecdotes are excellent pieces of "proof", I've got a million of 'em. I happenned to grow up in a dirt poor area, and there were plenty of homeless peopel around...and my experience is completely different from yours and jaywray's.

And since these personal anecdotes are all good, solid proof, according to you...then what are we to make of the great contradictions we find?

Well, one way is to use logic: your view supports the status quo, which is favorable to wealthy and powerful people....probably the WHOLE reason for you holding such a view, because the contemporary Right (misnamed "conservative") are the most obedient and servile bunch of suck-ups and aristocrat-worshippers it has been America's misfortune to witness for many decades.

My view supports the idea that the current system is unfair and unjust, and in fact is designed to be that way, again for the sake of elite interests.

Hmmmm...I wonder which view is more reasonably grounded in reality?

[BugMan]

Then let me repeat myself: YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.



Jaywray's personal anecdote doesn't symbolize the plight of the homeless.

That is to say--imagine this if you're able--each situation is unique.

Now, I KNOW you don't believe that--because you listen to and read simpleton immoralists who inform you what political stances you should hold--and I KNOW you don't believe that because of your sweet-natured, caring, sympathetic little remarks about the "sob stories" you get...which you also consider "proof".



But ok...since, by your own standards, personal and unverifiable anecdotes are excellent pieces of "proof", I've got a million of 'em. I happenned to grow up in a dirt poor area, and there were plenty of homeless peopel around...and my experience is completely different from yours and jaywray's.

And since these personal anecdotes are all good, solid proof, according to you...then what are we to make of the great contradictions we find?

Well, one way is to use logic: your view supports the status quo, which is favorable to wealthy and powerful people....probably the WHOLE reason for you holding such a view, because the contemporary Right (misnamed "conservative") are the most obedient and servile bunch of suck-ups and aristocrat-worshippers it has been America's misfortune to witness for many decades.

My view supports the idea that the current system is unfair and unjust, and in fact is designed to be that way, again for the sake of elite interests.

Hmmmm...I wonder which view is more reasonably grounded in reality?
My view. It is based on reality, and what IS happening right now every day.

[serenity]

My view. It is based on reality, and what IS happening right now every day.

You just keep telling yourself that. Keep holding views which support power and privelege, and denigrate the poor, who make up the majority of the earth.

"Most of the homeless are there by choice." :)

This would be hilarious, if it wasn't so sad, so mean-spirited.

But have your fill, man. It's your wasted brain cells.

[faithfulservant]

Nope. But self-righteous, sanctimonious top-down class warfare stuff like this remark certainly IS a choice.
How many homelees people do you know? Our church is situated about 600 yards from the biggest homeless camp east of the Cascades in Oregon. We get them in here on a regular basis. I've talked to a lot of these folks about why they live the way they do and the overwhelming response is that they can't hold a regular job. When I press the issue about why they can't, the response is an overwhelmingly similar: "They want me to be there on time every day and I just can't do that." They have money for food for themselves and their dogs and most of them are overweight ( you rarely see a skinny homeless person living in a camp), so they are getting funds somewhere, but most are very retiticent to discuss where they get thier money from. We had one guy who had a van (pretty beat up), three dogs, four cats and lived in a shelter made from cardboard and pallets. He goes south every winter and returns in the spring. He's perfectly capable of holding a job, he simply won't. This is pretty standard fare for most homeless people.

[serenity]

How many homelees people do you know? Our church is situated about 600 yards from the biggest homeless camp east of the Cascades in Oregon. We get them in here on a regular basis. I've talked to a lot of these folks about why they live the way they do and the overwhelming response is that they can't hold a regular job. When I press the issue about why they can't, the response is an overwhelmingly similar: "They want me to be there on time every day and I just can't do that." They have money for food for themselves and their dogs and most of them are overweight ( you rarely see a skinny homeless person living in a camp), so they are getting funds somewhere, but most are very retiticent to discuss where they get thier money from. We had one guy who had a van (pretty beat up), three dogs, four cats and lived in a shelter made from cardboard and pallets. He goes south every winter and returns in the spring. He's perfectly capable of holding a job, he simply won't. This is pretty standard fare for most homeless people.

I've known plenty of homeless people, too many.

And like I said, these personal anecdotes are, for that very reason, practically useless. My experience is utterly different from yours...so why would yours be a better indicator of reality than mine?

<MOD EDIT>

And that's your business.

I'm not fooled by any of this "Most homeless people" are lazy, or complain because they're expected to show up for work...you guys are just making excuses.

[Albert]

I think you folks could hack at each other for the next 6 weeks and resolve nothing. How about looking for some facts and then have an honest discussion.

Why not start by Googling Homeless Children:

[Albert]

http://www.misd.net/Homeless/statistics.htm

Statistics on Homeless Children & Youth
According to the National Coalition for the Homeless, 1.35 million U.S. children are homeless on any given night. (2000)


Families are now the fastest growing segment of the homeless population, accounting for almost 39% of the nation's homeless. (2000)


The average age of a homeless person in the U.S. is 9 years old.


41% of homeless children are under the age of five.


Nearly 20% of homeless children lack a regular source of medical care.


Homeless children are hungry more than twice as often as other children.


Almost 1/3 of low-income families do not have enough money to prepare three meals a day.


14% of homeless children are diagnosed with learning disabilities - double the rate of other children.


21% of homeless children repeat a grade because of frequent absence from school.


Within a single school year, 41% of homeless students attend two different schools, 28% attend three or more.


For children and youth identified as homeless by State Departments of Education, 35% lived in shelters, 34% lived doubled up with family or friends and 23% lived in motels or other locations. (FY 2000)

[BugMan]

I've known plenty of homeless people, too many.

And like I said, these personal anecdotes are, for that very reason, practically useless. My experience is utterly different from yours...so why would yours be a better indicator of reality than mine?

Anyway, I personally think that those of you with such laughable and essentially immoral notions should merely admit the truth (which won't kill you) you have been trained to detest the poor, and to love and respect the rich.

And that's your business.

I'm not fooled by any of this "Most homeless people" are lazy, or complain because they're expected to show up for work...you guys are just making excuses.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You have NO IDEA. Literally, NO IDEA.

Like I said - and you've repeatedly dismissed - I deal with homeless and/or transient people almost on a daily basis. Sometimes it's 4 or 5 in one day. At least 9 of 10 of them absolutely reek of cigarette smoke. At least half of them reek of alcohol.

If it weren't for the fact that it would be a violation of their privacy, I could give you names, ID numbers, personal information and Drivers' License numbers. But that wouldn't satisfy you either.

So be it... :rolleyes:

[BugMan]

http://www.misd.net/Homeless/statistics.htm
You might want to be aware that a good share of those listed are VERY LIKELY migrant workers. In addition, there are people listed here who - though homeless - are living "doubled up" with relatives. You know, kind of like the way MOST of us USED to live!

These figures and numbers are perfectly fine, but they do NOT tell the whole story - nor do they tell it from a particularly honest and unbiased point of view.

[Albert]

You might want to be aware that a good share of those listed are VERY LIKELY migrant workers. In addition, there are people listed here who - though homeless - are living "doubled up" with relatives. You know, kind of like the way MOST of us USED to live!

These figures and numbers are perfectly fine, but they do NOT tell the whole story - nor do they tell it from a particularly honest and unbiased point of view.
Might I suggest that there are as many stories as there are people. That is why statistics often paint a more realistic picture.

[BugMan]

http://www.voa-gny.org/Content/Understanding_Homelessness-2017.asp

While sincere and well-meaning, the current trend to assist and accommodate individuals who live on the streets through handouts, money, or food are, ironically, perpetuating a tragedy. Our inability to resist the temptation to give money to panhandlers further enables homeless individuals to continue their life on the street. Living on the street is not romantic, and almost never involves a "choice" in the true sense of the word. And contrary to countless news accounts, many who choose the streets over shelters do so because disabilities cloud their decision-making ability.

[BugMan]

Might I suggest that there are as many stories as there are people. That is why statistics often paint a more realistic picture.
Sure.

But you know... when you're talking to somebody that deals regularly with homeless/transient people, it's usually a good idea to at least listen to that person even if you don't like what he's saying.

Like I've said, I could divulge private information on these people I've worked with over the years, but I'm not going to.

If that means that my experience and knowledge counts for nothing - because I will not divulge personal information on an internet discussion forum - so be it. It doesn't change the facts.

[::Major_Baker::]

Sure.

But you know... when you're talking to somebody that deals regularly with homeless/transient people, it's usually a good idea to at least listen to that person even if you don't like what he's saying.

Like I've said, I could divulge private information on these people I've worked with over the years, but I'm not going to.

If that means that my experience and knowledge counts for nothing - because I will not divulge personal information on an internet discussion forum - so be it. It doesn't change the facts.

Do you care to share how it is you 'deal' wioth homeless people on a daily basis? And of the stats that were presented, surely, 9 year old kids don't choose to be homeless, do they? I'd love to hear some pseudo-logic behind that one Bugman...

[Blueangel]

Sure.

But you know... when you're talking to somebody that deals regularly with homeless/transient people, it's usually a good idea to at least listen to that person even if you don't like what he's saying.

Reading much of your posts in this thread, it strikes me that you may be refering to the minority proportion of homeless people who are in thsi predicament through having mental illnesses rather than the majority who are homeless for other, strictly financial reasons.
Would that be the case?

[BugMan]

Do you care to share how it is you 'deal' wioth homeless people on a daily basis? And of the stats that were presented, surely, 9 year old kids don't choose to be homeless, do they? I'd love to hear some pseudo-logic behind that one Bugman...
How many of those 9-year old kids are "homeless" because their parents are migratory workers?

What you consider pseudo-logic is nothing more than good old fashioned common sense.

[Albert]

Sure.

But you know... when you're talking to somebody that deals regularly with homeless/transient people, it's usually a good idea to at least listen to that person even if you don't like what he's saying.

Like I've said, I could divulge private information on these people I've worked with over the years, but I'm not going to.

If that means that my experience and knowledge counts for nothing - because I will not divulge personal information on an internet discussion forum - so be it. It doesn't change the facts.
Yes, but I don’t think you need to get to the heart of the matter.

I think we all can agree that people make choices and that some people make horrible choices. I have worked with poor people for many years and while I would never say that some if not many deserve to be poor, I would never deny that they haven’t helped themselves either.

Three points need to be considered:

First consider that the margin for error has gotten pretty tight these days. My grandmother used to say when she was young her family lived three doors down from the poor house. Now families often live three paychecks away from the homeless shelter. Like the 1920’s and 30’s the economy is changing away from large segments of our population. Housing is expensive as is transportation.

Second, whatever we might think about adults, too often children are sucked into the equation.

Third, some of our homeless adults would of and perhaps should be part of a mental health strategy is metal health wasn’t the most politically expedient thing to cut.


I deal almost exclusively with homeless and underprivileged children and teens. I personally feel that our society’s reaction to these people is nothing short of scandalous. I see poor people who can barely feed their own children take in “strays” while funds for residential settings never make it to politician’s long, let alone short lists. I often feel that people care more about homeless pets than homeless children. We have to do better.

[BugMan]

Reading much of your posts in this thread, it strikes me that you may be refering to the minority proportion of homeless people who are in thsi predicament through having mental illnesses rather than the majority who are homeless for other, strictly financial reasons.
Would that be the case?
Actually no, MOST of the homeless/transient people I deal with are NOT mentally ill - although there are some.

Most of these people are career homeless/transients. You'll never believe it until you deal with it, at length, first-hand. I could tell you endless stories..

For instance, the most common "paradigm" of the professional transients is to get into a town and find a phone and phonebook. They'll turn to the Yellow Pages under "churches", and they'll start with the churches whose name begins with "A" and they'll just go down the list. It is VERY common for these people to get put up in nice motels for the better part of a week, and get upwards of a thousand dollars before people wise-up. When that happens, the professional transient just moves to the next town. It's quite a scam - and one that mentally ill people would simply be unable to pull off!

[Blueangel]

For instance, the most common "paradigm" of the professional transients is to get into a town and find a phone and phonebook. They'll turn to the Yellow Pages under "churches", and they'll start with the churches whose name begins with "A" and they'll just go down the list. It is VERY common for these people to get put up in nice motels for the better part of a week, and get upwards of a thousand dollars before people wise-up. When that happens, the professional transient just moves to the next town. It's quite a scam - and one that mentally ill people would simply be unable to pull off!Do you accept that you're making a gross generalisation here?

I have been homeless myself and was in well paid full time employment throughout.

[BugMan]

Yes, but I don’t think you need to get to the heart of the matter.

I think we all can agree that people make choices and that some people make horrible choices. I have worked with poor people for many years and while I would never say that some if not many deserve to be poor, I would never deny that they haven’t helped themselves either.

Three points need to be considered:

First consider that the margin for error has gotten pretty tight these days. My grandmother used to say when she was young her family lived three doors down from the poor house. Now families often live three paychecks away from the homeless shelter. Like the 1920’s and 30’s the economy is changing away from large segments of our population. Housing is expensive as is transportation.

Second, whatever we might think about adults, too often children are sucked into the equation.

Third, some of our homeless adults would of and perhaps should be part of a mental health strategy is metal health wasn’t the most politically expedient thing to cut.


I deal almost exclusively with homeless and underprivileged children and teens. I personally feel that our society’s reaction to these people is nothing short of scandalous. I see poor people who can barely feed their own children take in “strays” while funds for residential settings never make it to politician’s long, let alone short lists. I often feel that people care more about homeless pets than homeless children. We have to do better.


Concerning your point #3: If you work with homeless and underpriveleged kids, surely you know that MOST of these mentally ill people used to be housed (often against their will) in state mental institutions. That was out-lawed (I forget the exact year) and guess what? You have an influx of mentally ill people living with relatives and/or in homeless shelters.

[BugMan]

Do you accept that you're making a gross generalisation here?

I have been homeless myself and was in well paid full time employment throughout.
You'll notice that I said "most common paradigm"...

Also, I want to ask you, "Is that what you did? Go from town to town sponging off of everyone?" If not, you probably were never one of the people I was referring to.

So no, I am NOT making a gross overgeneralization here. I'm talking about a great number of people who DO acutally DO exactly what I was talking about.


Also, if you were "in well paid full time employment", why the heck were you homeless? There are income-based apartments in EVERY community (of any size at all) all across the nation. In addition, if you were well paid and full-time employed, you surely had enough money to get an apartment someplace.

[Albert]

Concerning your point #3: If you work with homeless and underpriveleged kids, surely you know that MOST of these mentally ill people used to be housed (often against their will) in state mental institutions. That was out-lawed (I forget the exact year) and guess what? You have an influx of mentally ill people living with relatives and/or in homeless shelters.
In New York State mental health facilities were never outlawed, just under funded. It was the classic case of doing a good thing for the wrong reason while attempting to save the same dollar more than once.

Everyone in mental health agreed that the large-scale institutions were not the answer for a majority of the mentally ill. The problem was that while community based homes were less expensive they are not inexpensive so what we see is a pushing down and out.

This is particularly true of emotionally disturbed children and youth. Kids who would have been in residential treatment 10 years ago are now in day treatment and those who would have been in day treatment are now placed in specialized programs in schools. This is budget driven, not treatment driven process. Our Governor will only pay for a limited number of beds.

[BugMan]

In New York State mental health facilities were never outlawed, just under funded. It was the classic case of doing a good thing for the wrong reason while attempting to save the same dollar more than once.

Everyone in mental health agreed that the large-scale institutions were not the answer for a majority of the mentally ill. The problem was that while community based homes were less expensive they are not inexpensive so what we see is a pushing down and out.

This is particularly true of emotionally disturbed children and youth. Kids who would have been in residential treatment 10 years ago are now in day treatment and those who would have been in day treatment are now placed in specialized programs in schools. This is budget driven, not treatment driven process. Our Governor will only pay for a limited number of beds.
So very, very typical.

"One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" was not all that far fetched, was it?

[Blueangel]

Also, if you were "in well paid full time employment", why the heck were you homeless? There are income-based apartments in EVERY community (of any size at all) all across the nation. In addition, if you were well paid and full-time employed, you surely had enough money to get an apartment someplace.I was made homeless by multiple factors, the most vital one being that I was 22 and had never had credit in my life so was deemed to be a bad/unknown credit risk. I was on a substantial waiting list for council accomodation that meant I may be offered somewhere within 2-3 yrs and didn't have enough savings to put the deposit down on a home of my own.
Even though I was officially homeless and more than capable of paying rent, it was 9 months before I was offered any accomodation.

Homelessness for people such as myself isn't a political issue. It's about how financial institutes operate. You can't get credit if you haven't had credit and it takes a long time to save because being homeless and in employment is more costly than being in a home of your own believe it or not.

You also haven't considered all the people who are forced to sell their homes during divorce proceedings by a court order. They may walk away with a lump sum, but the moment you seperate your credit rating drops 10-15 points and you are classed as not being capable of paying a mortgage by most banks unless you earn a fantastic amount per annum.
The vast majority of people I've known who have been homeless have been put in that situation by family or marriage breakdowns.

you have to already be 'in the system' to be cared for by the system. If you've been supporting yourself for all your working life, you immediately go to the bottom of the heap when your circumstances change.

[BugMan]

I was made homeless by multiple factors, the most vital one being that I was 22 and had never had credit in my life so was deemed to be a bad/unknown credit risk. I was on a substantial waiting list for council accomodation that meant I may be offered somewhere within 2-3 yrs and didn't have enough savings to put the deposit down on a home of my own.
Even though I was officially homeless and more than capable of paying rent, it was 9 months before I was offered any accomodation.

Homelessness for people such as myself isn't a political issue. It's about how financial institutes operate. You can't get credit if you haven't had credit and it takes a long time to save because being homeless and in employment is more costly than being in a home of your own believe it or not.

You also haven't considered all the people who are forced to sell their homes during divorce proceedings by a court order. They may walk away with a lump sum, but the moment you seperate your credit rating drops 10-15 points and you are classed as not being capable of paying a mortgage by most banks unless you earn a fantastic amount per annum.
The vast majority of people I've known who have been homeless have been put in that situation by family or marriage breakdowns.

you have to already be 'in the system' to be cared for by the system. If you've been supporting yourself for all your working life, you immediately go to the bottom of the heap when your circumstances change.


...and you live in the United Kingdom, right?

You might want to be aware of the fact that I'm talking about the Homeless in America.

In addition, if you were employed and making good money, you should have been able to buy an older, used small motorhome - and you could have lived quite comfortably.

[Albert]

So very, very typical.

"One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" was not all that far fetched, was it?
I'm not sure I follow? :confused:

[BugMan]

I'm not sure I follow? :confused:

So very, very typical that...
1. The government created a problem by their attempt to fix a different problem.
2. Government has become budget driven and not treatment driven.
3. Public health (not just mental, but physical as well) is governed by accounting rather than by actual need.


...and we want socialized health care in this country? :eek:

[bowerbird]

So very, very typical.

"One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" was not all that far fetched, was it?

Sadly, no it wasn't and in some ways isn't. Although that movie was seminal in changing the culture underlying many psychiatric institutions there are still sad exceptions.

But even without the horror outlined in that story there are many many psychiatric patients who are functioning reasonably well WITHIN THIER OWN FRAMEWORK!!! Many you would not know are psychiatrically disturbed until you spent some time with them.

Take your tale of the people going from town to town "ripping" off the gullible. (and I doubt this is as widespread as you believe). That person could and I will emphasise COULD be a "personality disorder" with extremely developed manipulative skills and poor social conscience.

How do you know who has a mental illness and who does not?

Living on the street, eating out of garbage cans just might be either a coping mechanism or an escape mechanism for someone. THAT person will not thank you for taking them into a shelter and forcing them to mingle and interact with other people.

You forget too the the common and primary disorder that underpins so many homeless is lack of self-esteem. Housing them won't bring that back. Feeding them won't bring that back. Often times fixing the self-esteem fixes the other problems spontaneously.

[BugMan]

Sadly, no it wasn't and in some ways isn't. Although that movie was seminal in changing the culture underlying many psychiatric institutions there are still sad exceptions.

But even without the horror outlined in that story there are many many psychiatric patients who are functioning reasonably well WITHIN THIER OWN FRAMEWORK!!! Many you would not know are psychiatrically disturbed until you spent some time with them.

Take your tale of the people going from town to town "ripping" off the gullible. (and I doubt this is as widespread as you believe). That person could and I will emphasise COULD be a "personality disorder" with extremely developed manipulative skills and poor social conscience.

How do you know who has a mental illness and who does not?

Living on the street, eating out of garbage cans just might be either a coping mechanism or an escape mechanism for someone. THAT person will not thank you for taking them into a shelter and forcing them to mingle and interact with other people.

You forget too the the common and primary disorder that underpins so many homeless is lack of self-esteem. Housing them won't bring that back. Feeding them won't bring that back. Often times fixing the self-esteem fixes the other problems spontaneously.


It sounds like you've got a lot of work ahead of you!

I'll continue doing what I'm doing, and you can embark on a campaign to eradicate all homelessness and its underlying causes. Best of wishes.

[CheckerboardStr]

It doesn't apply to ALL of them - but the fact is that homelessness, for MOST of these people, is a CHOICE.


While visiting the Hurricane Katrina refugees, Barbara Bush said:

“And so many of the people in the arenas here you know, were underprivileged anyway. This is working very well for them.”

Your remark sounds very similar....

JeffH
Arlington Occupied Texas

[Albert]

So very, very typical that...
1. The government created a problem by their attempt to fix a different problem.
2. Government has become budget driven and not treatment driven.
3. Public health (not just mental, but physical as well) is governed by accounting rather than by actual need.


...and we want socialized health care in this country? :eek:
But the politics that drive this problem also drive private health care. It’s classic capitalism, if many people are affected or if a problem or cause has a lot of sympathetic support funds flow in that direction. I can’t speak for other states but in New York, every time we have a budget problem (which is about 3 out of 4 years) mental health takes a hit. Cut education and 10,000 teachers and parents march on Albany. Cut mental health 200 stand outside waving signs. Private insurance in New York State must pay for fertility treatment but they do not have to pay for mental health. My insurance will cover up to $8000 for hormone therapy but only 50% of 12 visits to a psychiatrist

. But I digress; I believe we have to challenge the general public to be less short sighted. A significant number of mental ill children and teens end up in prison as adults. Our experience has demonstrated that the earlier we begin working with a child’s issues, the better our chances for successful re-integration in to a normal school setting and society. Make no mistake, this re-integration is critical because the longer someone feels disconnected the less likely they will ever be a productive member of our society.

Ultimately homelessness is symptomatic of both personal and societal failure isn’t it?

[BugMan]

But the politics that drive this problem also drive private health care. It’s classic capitalism, if many people are affected or if a problem or cause has a lot of sympathetic support funds flow in that direction. I can’t speak for other states but in New York, every time we have a budget problem (which is about 3 out of 4 years) mental health takes a hit. Cut education and 10,000 teachers and parents march on Albany. Cut mental health 200 stand outside waving signs. Private insurance in New York State must pay for fertility treatment but they do not have to pay for mental health. My insurance will cover up to $8000 for hormone therapy but only 50% of 12 visits to a psychiatrist

. But I digress; I believe we have to challenge the general public to be less short sighted. A significant number of mental ill children and teens end up in prison as adults. Our experience has demonstrated that the earlier we begin working with a child’s issues, the better our chances for successful re-integration in to a normal school setting and society. Make no mistake, this re-integration is critical because the longer someone feels disconnected the less likely they will ever be a productive member of our society.

Ultimately homelessness is symptomatic of both personal and societal failure isn’t it?
This is true. There is no one single answer.

But to me - in my years and years of experience working with people - there is one common denominator that comes to the surface: Personal responsibility. All other factors aside, if you will NOT take personal responsibility for your life, you will NEVER get on well in life.

[BugMan]

While visiting the Hurricane Katrina refugees, Barbara Bush said:

“And so many of the people in the arenas here you know, were underprivileged anyway. This is working very well for them.”

Your remark sounds very similar....

JeffH
Arlington Occupied Texas
I don't see how this is relevant to anything.

However, speaking of New Orleans... there are MANY of the residents that are NOT going back - and most of them are FAR better off for having made that decision.

[Albert]

This is true. There is no one single answer.

But to me - in my years and years of experience working with people - there is one common denominator that comes to the surface: Personal responsibility. All other factors aside, if you will NOT take personal responsibility for your life, you will NEVER get on well in life.
I agree, but keep in mind most people learn personal responsibility from the example parents set for them. In my neck of the woods, rural New York State we have a saying, “plant corn you get corn”. If we are going to make a positive change for our at risk children, we need to devote the time and resources to counter the negative examples most of these kids live with.

I don’t think that government in and of itself will be the answer. I think that a more community-based solution is needed. What we do need from our leaders of all political stripes is an acknowledgement of the problem and a commitment to do something.

[BugMan]

I agree, but keep in mind most people learn personal responsibility from the example parents set for them. In my neck of the woods, rural New York State we have a saying, “plant corn you get corn”. If we are going to make a positive change for our at risk children, we need to devote the time and resources to counter the negative examples most of these kids live with.

I don’t think that government in and of itself will be the answer. I think that a more community-based solution is needed. What we do need from our leaders of all political stripes is an acknowledgement of the problem and a commitment to do something.
I agree.

But I'm coming at it from a different angle.

My wife and I have raised three exemplary kids - partly due to our insistance on them understanding one thing: There are ALWAYS consequences to your decisions and actions, both good and bad.