Teen Killed by Falling Sword

[Craig]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2006/03/07/1476736-ap.html

[Mirror Lake 444]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2006/03/07/1476736-ap.html


Live by the sword die by the sword?

[Craig]

Apparently. I am a bit surprised by this, insofar that many "sword like objects" for sale out there are not sharpened and cannot effectively hold an edge. Also, even if a sword does have an edge, it takes an effort to cut properly with one. That a sword falling off the wall was able to produce a lethal cut is somewhat surprising, though less so when one considers where the teen was hit.

Incidentally, the neck/shoulders is one of the the major cutting targets in historic European martial arts, and the most basic of sword strikes should target this region.

[Confucius]

Woh, I almost bought something like that myself, glad I didnt of course now

[::Major_Baker::]

Craig, did you get this on sword news or something? You are a collector right? I remember seeing you in a pic by swords I think.
I used to really like swords too, in fact, they are really cool... I always wanted a katana, just to cut things with....!

[Firefly]

that's terrible. those poor parents and his siblings. jiminy I can't imagine being the kid that tossed the ball and then watched a sword cut my brother in half.

[Craig]

Woh, I almost bought something like that myself, glad I didnt of course now

Well Confucious, to be honest, there are safe ways to store swords and there are unsafe ways. Having a sword hanging on the wall of a minor's room is not a safe way to store it. A safe way to store a sword is in a scabbard (but make sure it's a good fitting one and that you check on your sword from time to time, because if there's moisture in the scabbard it can rust your weapon very badly), or in a rack where it cannot fall out and hit someone. So, assuming you're 18 (or else a responsible youth) I'd encourage you to get a sword- just make sure that you store it safely.

[Craig]

Craig, did you get this on sword news or something? You are a collector right? I remember seeing you in a pic by swords I think.
I used to really like swords too, in fact, they are really cool... I always wanted a katana, just to cut things with....!

Actually, I got it from the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts E-list. And yeah, there was a photo of me in my user CP with a wooden waster (training sword). I've uploaded a copy of it below. The photo is a couple of years old now.

I've recently bought three swords from Albion Armorers. I highly recommend them to anyone who likes European weapons. The smith who makes them, Peter Johnsson, actually goes to museums and handles original pieces, taking extensive measuresments, photos and sketches of each weapon down to minute details such as distal taper of the blade. Consequently, the swords Albion produces, based upon Peter's prototypes, handle very much like originals, which is to say they're light, well balanced, and well made.

You can see photos of the swords I bought from Albion here:

http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?reviews/alb_15th_a.jpg

http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?reviews/alb_knight_a.jpg

http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?reviews/alb_lansem_c.jpg

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/2411/craigreducediii0gd.jpg

[::Major_Baker::]

Actually, I got it from the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts E-list. And yeah, there was a photo of me in my user CP with a wooden waster (training sword). I've uploaded a copy of it below. The photo is a couple of years old now.

I've recently bought three swords from Albion Armorers. I highly recommend them to anyone who likes European weapons. The smith who makes them, Peter Johnsson, actually goes to museums and handles original pieces, taking extensive measuresments, photos and sketches of each weapon down to minute details such as distal taper of the blade. Consequently, the swords Albion produces, based upon Peter's prototypes, handle very much like originals, which is to say they're light, well balanced, and well made.

You can see photos of the swords I bought from Albion here:

http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?reviews/alb_15th_a.jpg

http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?reviews/alb_knight_a.jpg

http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?reviews/alb_lansem_c.jpg

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/2411/craigreducediii0gd.jpg
That's cool!
Do they cost an arm and a leg?(figuratively of course)?
I can't view those links right now because 'weapons' s filtered by my work's web filter. I'll be sure to view them at home.
Thanks Craig.

[Strel]

OMG I think I know this family...I used to live around those parts. I went to high school with a guy by that name.

I'm suspicious - what are the chances of this happening accidentally, versus the kids playing with the sword?

[Craig]

OMG I think I know this family...I used to live around those parts. I went to high school with a guy by that name.

I'm suspicious - what are the chances of this happening accidentally, versus the kids playing with the sword?

You know what's eerie Strel? There was a guy on another forum who was pretty sure he actually knew the teen who was killed. Small world, I guess.

And your suspicions are not ill founded when it comes to this accident. Simply put, I've never heard of a sword falling off a wall and killing someone before, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find more than two or three other recorded instances of it occurring. The sword would have to fall off "just so" and hit the teen exactly where it did, and with some degree of proper edge alignment, in order to cut effectively.

On the other hand, it would be very easy for two teens who decided to "mess around" for fun with the sword to have an accident occur. In the first place, the teens would not have much experience at controlling strikes, which is vital when one wants to spar with blunt steel swords and a minimal amount of protection. The other problem, as I'm sure many of you know from experience, is that in the heat of play fighting things can very easily get out of hand as one person gets more aggressive than they should be, or catches the other person off guard. Statistically speaking Strel, the chances of it being an accidental death from play fighting are astronomically higher than the chances of the sword falling off the wall "just so" and killing the teen.

The one thing that leads me to think that what the article claims is genuine is the target region of where it struck the boy. As I mentioned in a previous post, the neck/shoulders region is a classic target (besides the head) when striking a very basic cut like the Zornhau. You can see a demonstration of a form of this strike here- just pretend it's to the neck region, rather than the head:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Mastercuts/ZornhauPartner2.jpg

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Mastercuts/ZornhauPartner3.jpg

The thing is, most people don't know that this area of the neck is a target region- and they'll make deliberate attempts to avoid hitting someone in the head region. If you watch most people when they play at swords, they tend to strike at an armpit/pectoral region and lower on the chest. So, in that regard, it seems a bit less likely that the accident would have occured from play fighting, because that's not the region where you'd tend to expect a wound to be inflicted.

[Craig]

That's cool!
Do they cost an arm and a leg?(figuratively of course)?
I can't view those links right now because 'weapons' s filtered by my work's web filter. I'll be sure to view them at home.
Thanks Craig.

I guess the best answer to your cost question is that Albion's swords certainly aren't cheap, but they're not that expensive either. One really needs to have a perspective on the cost of European style swords before Albion's price ranges will mean much of anything.

The lower end of swords will typically cost between $50-$300 US. Swords that are movie replicas from the Lord of the Rings tend to fall in this age, though there are some weapons loosely patterned off of historical swords that fall in this range. In a lot of cases, swords in this price range are absolute junk- they're good for hanging on your wall perhaps, but that's about it. In other cases, the swords will not be utterly hopeless, but will have substantial problems holding them back. In a lot of cases, blades will be too "whippy". Edges might be too thick, and swords in this price category are invariably sharpened incorrectly, as though they were giant knives. Swords in this price range almost always have significant hilt problems. Blades will rattle in the guards. The hilts, which are virtually never full tang and are almost never attached using wedge compression tend to become loose quite rapidly. In the case of many "historical" swords, there will be parts of the sword that look ahistorical. While not every sword in this range suffers from all of these problems, it's virtually impossible to find a sword that doesn't suffer from some of them. The biggest problem too is that swords in this range simply don't handle like originals, and that makes a huge difference to serious collectors and martial arts enthusiasts.

Swords in the $300-$600 range can be a mixed bag. It's still possible to buy swords that are "expensive crap"; i.e. they still have a lot of problems of the lower end swords. Other swords will look more historical/accurate, and have decent handling properties. They still feel significantly different from the originals, but they're often much better than swords in the lowest category. Hilt problems tend to remain an issue for these swords. However, it is possible to find some swords that are in the same quality bracket as Albion weapons in this range. These swords are well constructed and don't have hilt problems like cheaper knock-offs. The blades aren't whippy, and are based upon historically accurate designs, or generally historically accurate designs. These lower price of higher range swords will typically have a properly sharpened edge.

The first sword that I included as a link from Albion is an example of the third type of sword that I mentioned in this price range. It's one that's generally historically accurate. This particular model is made as an entry level Albion sword, one that's nice to have a display around one's house or to wear to a Renn Faire if you want a higher quality weapon than most people who will attend. Though it's not designed for it, it can be used for some sparring as well. It has all the regular features of an Albion sword, save for the following:

-The grip is plainer and not seemlessly closed, i.e. you can see the seam on the grip more easily than on higher priced swords.

-The tip is rebated, or rounded if you prefer. On an actual type XV sword, (which this sword is an example of), the tip would come to a wicked, accute tip.

-The edges are thicker than they would be on a real sword, and the weapon does not come sharpened unless you specifically request it. However, one must be clear that the edge is only a bit thicker than a sharp, and it's still possible to cause significant injury with it if one is not careful. Hence why it's not designed to be a sparring sword.

The price for this particular model is $400.

(Continued)...

[Craig]

Swords in the $600 to $2,000 price range are Albions general models. I must be clear that it is still possible to find crap swords in this range, especially if they are designed to perfectly match a movie sword, and thus have terrible handling characteristics. It's also possible to find swords which are decent but not excellent in this range. If you know your companies however, it is possible to find high quality, responsive swords that are well constructed and properly sharpened. Most of Albion's swords fall in the range of $600 to $1,200- it's only certain swords from their Museum Line which are very close to exact copies of one particular historical original sword that tend to fall in the $1,200 to $2,000 range. What's the "downside" to swords in the $600 to $1,200 range from Albion, if anything? In some cases, the construction and execution of the weapon is better than on historical originals, with straighter and criper fuller lines, for instance, which means that the weapon might be a bit less like some antique swords. Also, swords in this range may not be patterned off of one historical original, but rather combine features of several. For some people, this is utterly irrelevant; others, however, prefer swords that are modelled off of a particular historical original sword. The other thing is that it swords like Albion's are made with the assistance of machines, though there are many parts of the construction, including controlling the machines, that must be done by hand. Certain people would rather have a sword made as traditionally as possible. However, Albion does this to keep costs down, and it allows them to produce far more models each year. So, there's pros and cons to either way. One final thing is that there can still be ever so subtle differences between the way historical originals feel and how these swords feel (I'm speaking specifically of swords in this range that are made as recreations of a particular antique sword). All of these points, however, are relatively minor, and if you know your sword makers, swords in this range can represent excellent value for your money.

Just as a comparison, Raven Armouries in the UK makes swords that often cost 1,250 UK pounds +. While the Raven swords are nice weapons, they aren't made with the same degree of research as Albion's swords. So there is considerable variation in price.

Once you enter the $2,000+ range, you're generally starting to move in the realm of customs swords. Again, there is unfortunately a signficant range of quality in this category. However, with a skilled smith like Peter Johnsson, you can get a really nice weapon that has a painstaking level of detail in all of the features. Weapons in this range are frequently copies of specific historical originals. People have often said that a good custom sword is even a step above swords found in Albion's main line up. There might be even more close attention paid to minute aesthetic details, to things such as artistic metal work on the hilt of sword. Often, the differences between custom swords and Albion's general lines of swords are subtle, but apparent. For a good example of custom work, take a look at some of the details of this custom sabre by Christian Fletcher (there's two photos of the sabre): http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=6045

My point in all of this is that Albion's prices are actually quite reasonable. Generally, when I tell people how much Albion swords cost, they say something like "Holy s*** that's expensive!" The problem is though that they don't know the price range of swords, and what is reasonable to expect. It's rather like someone who knows nothing about vehicles saying the same thing about a vehicle that costs $25,000. Granted, $25,000 isn't cheap, but once you realize that there's a signficant number of vehicles that are a lot more expensive than that, you have a much better perspective of how expensive a $25,000 vehicle is in the grand scheme of things.

By the way, my prices are purely in the context of European weapons. I really can't say that much about katanas, save for the fact that they are still plagued in many cases by construction issues like their European counterparts. The only other thing is that the price point range for katanas are generally higher than European swords. This isn't because katanas are better weapons than European ones, but rather a function of there being more higher quality katana smiths in the world; probably more custom work katanas for sale; and in many cases, more people who are suckers who will pay more for a katana because they have the expectation that it is better and costs more than a European weapon, despite the fact that the katana they are buying is inferior to a weapon made by a company like Albion.

[::Major_Baker::]

wow, interesting! thanks for the info. do you have quite the collection?

I gues it is true that one really can't accurately say: "a sword is a sword"

[Craig]

By the way Major, my Knight (the medieval single handed sword) cost me $680, minus $100 for Albion's sale, not counting the shipping and duty costs at the border. The Sempach (the late medieval long sword) cost me $750, minus $75 for Albion's sale and a contest that I was a runner up in. Again, this is without shipping costs and duty costs. Albion has had to increase prices recently however, and the Knight currently costs $720, while the Sempach is $850.

[::Major_Baker::]

By the way Major, my Knight (the medieval single handed sword) cost me $680, minus $100 for Albion's sale, not counting the shipping and duty costs at the border. The Sempach (the late medieval long sword) cost me $750, minus $75 for Albion's sale and a contest that I was a runner up in. Again, this is without shipping costs and duty costs. Albion has had to increase prices recently however, and the Knight currently costs $720, while the Sempach is $850.
post some nice pics up here so I can check 'em out!

[Craig]

wow, interesting! thanks for the info. do you have quite the collection?

I gues it is true that one really can't accurately say: "a sword is a sword"

You'd think that I would, but I actually do not have a very significant collection. I have a wall hanger court sword I bought from Europe, and a crappy sword I bought from House of Knives. Shortly thereafter, I became interested in historical swordsmanship, and by extension, historical swords, and once Albion released their Next Generation line (which is the line that the Knight and the Sempach belong to) I decided to only purchase weapons from this higher quality bracket, even if it means that I own fewer of them.

All told then, I own three swords and two "sword-like objects".

[::Major_Baker::]

You'd think that I would, but I actually do not have a very significant collection. I have a wall hanger court sword I bought from Europe, and a crappy sword I bought from House of Knives. Shortly thereafter, I became interested in historical swordsmanship, and by extension, historical swords, and once Albion released their Next Generation line (which is the line that the Knight and the Sempach belong to) I decided to only purchase weapons from this higher quality bracket, even if it means that I own fewer of them.

All told then, I own three swords and two "sword-like objects".
Ahh, gotcha. Are you trained enough to use any of them for defense if you had to? Would you?

[Craig]

post some nice pics up here so I can check 'em out!

Well, you'll be able to see them as soon as you can access the other links that I included earlier, but here you go:

Squire Line Late 15th C Bastard Sword:
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9089/squirelinebastard9xa.jpg

Next Generation Knight:
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/7694/knight0zp.jpg

Next Generation Sempach:

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/5351/sempach5un.jpg

Obviously, these photos are not to scale. The Bastard is 42 inches long, the Knight is 38, and the Sempach is 45 and 15/16. For more photos, please see here:

http://www.myarmoury.com/review_alb_15th.html

http://www.myarmoury.com/review_alb_knight.html

http://www.myarmoury.com/review_alb_lansem.html

[Craig]

Ahh, gotcha. Are you trained enough to use any of them for defense if you had to? Would you?

I could use my swords quite effectively for defense, particularly if I was facing someone who didn't have a sword and who didn't know how to effectively use one, which would be the case in the vast majority of scenarios that could occur. To be honest though, as long as you've had some cutting practice, and you have some concept of distance, you could probably protect yourself effectively with a sword. Techniques and particular strikes with a sword only tend to imply when you're facing another person armed with some sort of melee weapon of similar size.

If I was inside, I'd use my Knight, simply for matters of space. While it's not primarily a thrusting sword, and is fairly dedicated to cutting, it could be used to effectively thrust against someone in maille, which means that an unarmoured target would be in big trouble. And it cuts very nicely- it takes almost no effort to put a two or three inch deep cut in cardboard that is thicker than human skin.

If I was outside, I'd want my Sempach. The reason is simple: with the Sempach, I can harm my opponent at a greater distance than with my Knight. And having two hands on a sword offers better control, and the Sempach is designed precisely for that. It's a wicked thrusting weapon, but it could also produce grievous cutting wounds, particularly against an unarmoured target.

And as you've probably gathered, yes, I would use my swords if I thought my life was threatened.

[Craig]

There's a couple of things I that I failed to mention or emphasize in my discussion about sword prices. Embarrasingly, I entirely neglected the matter of sword weight. Weight is one of the major problem that plagues swords, particularly those that are in the lower end of quality. For instance, if you handle one of the 8 to 10 pound Lord of the Ring's long swords, they will feel horrendously heavy and unwieldly. In most cases, swords with weight problems are too heavy. However, in some cases, lower end swords will be too light, meaning that they have insufficient mass to deliver an effective cut.

The other issue is handling. I touched on this in the lower end swords, but I should have focussed on it more in the rest of the article. What happened was that I ended upon focussing on construction issues, since they are such a major problem in swords. Simply put however, how a sword handles is hugely important. The less a sword handles like a historical weapon, the greater the distortions in our perceptions and our understandings of how they work. Not only that, but a well balanced sword is much more enjoyable to handle than one that's poor or mediocre/decent.

Both of these factors are major considerations if and when one decides to purchase a sword, depending upon why one wants the sword.

[JoeR]

The fact that it is called a Bastard sword is amazing.

[Craig]

The fact that it is called a Bastard sword is amazing.

Why is that Joe?

[Jarlaxle]

A bastard sword is also sometimes called the "hand and a half" sword...it could be used effectively with one or both hands.

My wife has only one sword (a Japanese wakazashi), but probably 25+ knives, ranging from several tiny belt-buckle knives, to severla throwing stilettos, to a couple of big Bowies almost as large as the wakazashi. She is well-versed in handling all of them, and her preference would be to fight with one in each hand (probably the wakazashi in her left hand, one of her shorter, thicker daggers in her right). However, her first choices for defence wouldn't be blades. Her first choice would be her pair of telescoping fighting sticks. The collapse to about 6", and are about 30" long fully extended, and the tips are ~1/2" in diameter, solid steel. They aren't heavy (not much more than a pound each), but are capable of putting stunning power behind a swing...I've seen her smash a 2x4 in half. They won't match the reach of even a short sword, but are rather-dramatically faster to handle, which suits her very well.

Other than those, her first choice would be a pair of tonfa (picture a police nightstick). No reach to speak of (they are held in the hands by the short side-piece, with the long sections extending back to the elbows), but an experienced fighter (she is) can use them for an almost impenetrable defence. They don't match the power of her fighting sticks (the tonfa are made of bamboo), but are pretty effective. They would certainly stop a sword cut (in fact, that's one major function of the tonfa), though unlike the sticks, they wouldn't nick the blade.

If all else fails, a bo stick isn't hard to improvise...a 6' piece of rebar would do nicely (not to mention giving plenty of reach).

[Craig]

A bastard sword is also sometimes called the "hand and a half" sword...it could be used effectively with one or both hands.

Indeed, this is the case. The term "bastard sword" comes from the term Espee Bastarde and appears as early as 1418. It derives from the fact that such swords are "bastards" in that they don't have a proper "family"; they don't technically belong to the one-handed sword family, and they don't technically belong to the two-handed sword family. In one of his editions of Flos Duellatorum or Fior di Battaglia, Fiore dei Liberi seems to make the distinction between the spadona and the spadone, the latter of which is suggested to be a term for a bastard sword. In a German text, there seems to be a distinction drawn between swords and kurzen schwerts, the latter of which Dr. Sydney Anglo suggests still refers to a sword that can be used with two hands in his book The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe. I'm not so sure however; it's quite possible that kurzen schwerts were simply one handed swords, which would be shorter than a langen schwert. Giovanni Antonio Lovino is the first sword master who uses the term una spada di una mano et mana et meza, which is where we get the familiar modern term of "hand and a half sword".

Sydney Anglo. The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe. London: Yale University Press, 2000.

[Craig]

See also:

In the early 1400's (as early as 1418) a form of long-sword often with specially shaped grips for one or two hands, became known as an Espée Bastarde or "bastard sword". The term may derive not form the blade length, but because bastard-swords typically had longer handles with special "half-grips" which could be used by either one or both hands. In this sense they were neither a one-handed sword nor a true great-sword/two-handed sword, and thus not a member of either "family" of sword. Evidence shows the their blade were typically tapered. Since newer types of shorter swords were coming into use, the term "bastard-sword" came to distinguish this form of long-sword. Bastard-swords typically had longer handles with special "half-grips" which could be used by either one or both hands. These handles have recognizable "waist" and "bottle" shapes (such grips were later used on the Renaissance two-handed sword). The unique bastard-sword half-grip was a versatile and practical innovation. Although, once again classification is not clear since the term "bastard-sword" appears to have not been entirely exclusive to those swords with so-called "hand-and-a-half" handles as older styles of long-sword were still in limited use. Bastard-swords varied and they might have either a flat blade or narrow hexagonal one for fighting plate-armor. Some were intended more for cutting while others were better for thrusting. Bastard swords continued to be used by knights and men-at-arms into the 1500's. Their hilt style leads toward the shorter cut & thrust sword forms of the Renaissance. Strangely, in the early Renaissance the term bastard-sword was also sometimes used to refer to single-hand arming-swords with compound-hilts. A form of German arming sword with a bastard-style compound hilt was called a "Reitschwert" ("cavalry sword") or a "Degen" ("knight's sword"). Although these might have been forms of single-hand estoc.

The familiar modern term "hand-and-a-half" was more or less coined to describe bastards swords specifically.The term "hand-and-a-half sword" is often used in reference to long-swords is not historical and is sometimes misapplied to other swords (although during the late 1500's, long after such blades fell out of favor, some German forms of this phrase are believed to have been used). While there is no evidence of the term “hand-and-a-half” having been used during the Middle Ages, either in English or other languages, it does appear in the 16th century. In his 1904 bibliography of Spanish texts, D. Enrique de Leguina gives a 1564 reference to una espada estoque de mano y media, and a 1594 reference to una espada de mano y media. In the Ragionamento, the unpublished appendix to his 1580, Traite d Escrime (“Fencing Treatise”), Giovanni Antonio Lovino describes one sword as una spada di una mano et mana et meza (literally “hand and a half sword”) which he distinguishes from the much larger spada da due mani or two-handed sword (the immense Renaissance weapon). The term spadone was used by Fiore Dei Liberi in 1410 to refer to a tapering long-sword and Camillo Agrippa in 1550 called the spadone a war sword. Later it was defined by John Florio in his 1598 Italian-English dictionary as “a long or two-hand sword”.

http://www.thearma.org/terms4.htm

[JoeR]

It's just amusing attaching modern connotations to old terminology. See also the story of the talking *** in the Old Testament.

[Craig]

It's just amusing attaching modern connotations to old terminology. See also the story of the talking *** in the Old Testament.

I once, in high school, had a girl ask me if they were called "bastard swords" because "only a bastard would use one". I was less than amused.