Labor Unions today: Have they outlived their usefulness??

[Bassman]

Piggybacking on my thread:"Just when you thought the idiocy would subside", I want to discuss labor unions, their mentality, relation to businesses or municipalities, and their relevance today.

First I wish to state unequivicably that a union can be an asset WHEN PROPERLY USED!! However, from what I've seen, read, and heard, unions FTMP have become power-hungry entities that don't care about the welfare and well being of the company/municipality. Take, for example, the story in my previous thread. The only construction firms that would have been allowed to bid on Erie County projects would have been those with NYS certified apprenticeship programs, thus shutting out all competitors. My take was that it was payback from the legislature for the union contributions. Pure and simple. The arguement that the higher (13% higher) cost of the projects would be offset by a new generation of union workers is total bunk! Your thoughts?

[Mirror Lake 444]

:sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

[prst31]

Lets see, my observations of union labor...Some of them very skilled and understand they are a team that needs the company, just as the company needs them. Some of them are not very skilled, are overpaid, and have an attitude unlike I've never seen. These are the types that give them a bad name and contribute to unemployment figures. Can you say GM? There isn't an engine or transmission, aside from Harley Davidson, made in the U.S. that I know of. There isn't a passenger tire aside from Cooper, made in the U.S. Hmmm....
Yes construction projects that are federally funded require "scale wages". They also require a certain percent of the total contract to be done by a minority contractor. Some women are making a killing on this. For example, a 10 million dollar project may require 10% to be done by a minority contractor. Say there is no minorty contractor in the area that can do a part of the contract that is valued at 1 million (like excavation or concrete), but there is a minority contractor that installs signage or traffic control. A signage contract or traffic control contract, that could normally be done for $150,000 is now required to be 1 million. How's that for Affirative Action? Good common sense with our tax dollars at work.

[lord tammerlain]

Lets see, my observations of union labor...Some of them very skilled and understand they are a team that needs the company, just as the company needs them. Some of them are not very skilled, are overpaid, and have an attitude unlike I've never seen. These are the types that give them a bad name and contribute to unemployment figures. Can you say GM? There isn't an engine or transmission, aside from Harley Davidson, made in the U.S. that I know of. There isn't a passenger tire aside from Cooper, made in the U.S. Hmmm....



Goodyear, Michealin(sp) both make tires in the US, I bet Firestone does as well.

Chrysler, Ford, GM have engine plants in the US, Ford still has their Cleveland engine plant

[Albert]

Let me qualify what I’m about to say by revealing that I work in and around organized labor.

First understand that the union movement has many branches and side roads. The craft unions represented by the AFL have been and I believe continue to be vital to our nations well being. They provide the skilled Iron Workers, Pipe Fitters, Bricklayers and a host of other trades needed to keep this country together. The rules you are referring to in New York State require Contractors biding on Municipal or State Funded work to pay the prevailing “Union” wage and either contribute to the appropriate trade union apprentice program or have a State approved program of their own. This rule is designed to prevent short sighted profit hungry contractors, using poorly trained non union workers from undercutting contractors who have union contracts and contribute to the cost of training the next generation.

This may or may not bother folks to realize that there are most likely two or three times as many doctors in a given urban area than skilled plumbers. A plumbers and pipe fitter’s apprenticeship is 5 years of combined classroom instruction and on the job training leading to an associates degree. This requires a tremendous commitment on the part of union contractors and I believe it should be supported.

[Bassman]

Goodyear, Michealin(sp) both make tires in the US, I bet Firestone does as well.

Chrysler, Ford, GM have engine plants in the US, Ford still has their Cleveland engine plant
That's Michelin. Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Kenworth (Washington State), Peterbilt (California), Eaton Fuller (Truck Transmissions), So yeah, Alot of products are still made right here in the US. My contention is that unions, FTMP, have become too powerful too fast. And that's not good.

[Bassman]

Let me qualify what I’m about to say by revealing that I work in and around organized labor.

First understand that the union movement has many branches and side roads. The craft unions represented by the AFL have been and I believe continue to be vital to our nations well being. They provide the skilled Iron Workers, Pipe Fitters, Bricklayers and a host of other trades needed to keep this country together. The rules you are referring to in New York State require Contractors biding on Municipal or State Funded work to pay the prevailing “Union” wage and either contribute to the appropriate trade union apprentice program or have a State approved program of their own. This rule is designed to prevent short sighted profit hungry contractors, using poorly trained non union workers from undercutting contractors who have union contracts and contribute to the cost of training the next generation.Which still hits taxpayers hard. Why do you think there is a mass exodus of business and residents leaving NY State? Because it's just too expensive to live here.

This may or may not bother folks to realize that there are most likely two or three times as many doctors in a given urban area than skilled plumbers. A plumbers and pipe fitter’s apprenticeship is 5 years of combined classroom instruction and on the job training leading to an associates degree. This requires a tremendous commitment on the part of union contractors and I believe it should be supported.
Similar measures were attempted in Rochester in 1986 and New York City just this past February. Gusee what. Both were struck down by the New York State Court of Appeals. Why? Because they excluded other contractors.

[Bassman]

Let me qualify what I’m about to say by revealing that I work in and around organized labor.

First understand that the union movement has many branches and side roads. The craft unions represented by the AFL have been and I believe continue to be vital to our nations well being. They provide the skilled Iron Workers, Pipe Fitters, Bricklayers and a host of other trades needed to keep this country together. The rules you are referring to in New York State require Contractors biding on Municipal or State Funded work to pay the prevailing “Union” wage and either contribute to the appropriate trade union apprentice program or have a State approved program of their own. This rule is designed to prevent short sighted profit hungry contractors, using poorly trained non union workers from undercutting contractors who have union contracts and contribute to the cost of training the next generation.Which still hits taxpayers hard. Why do you think there is a mass exodus of business and residents leaving NY State? Because it's just too expensive to live here.

This may or may not bother folks to realize that there are most likely two or three times as many doctors in a given urban area than skilled plumbers. A plumbers and pipe fitter’s apprenticeship is 5 years of combined classroom instruction and on the job training leading to an associates degree. This requires a tremendous commitment on the part of union contractors and I believe it should be supported.
Similar measures were attempted in Rochester in 1986 and New York City just this past February. Guess what. Both were struck down by the New York State Court of Appeals. Why? Because they excluded other contractors.

[Eddie]

I`d take strong labour unions over labour market legislation and governmental income redistribution schemes any day.

[prst31]

Goodyear, Michealin(sp) both make tires in the US, I bet Firestone does as well.Not passenger tires as I said. Only the huge industrial type tires for heavy equipment. We have a Goodyear plant here that does such. No passenger tires. Labor's too expensive.

Chrysler, Ford, GM have engine plants in the US, Ford still has their Cleveland engine plantWhat type of engines? I'm just guessing but they're probably heavy industrial. My last Ford in 2000 had a German engine and a French transmission and was a serious piece of SHART! There wasn't an american made part on the thing, other than the assembly and paint I suppose. Hell the paint was probably shipped in from China and applied here.
I'm sure you could find a few examples. My point is much larger than the nits you're picking.

[prst31]

I`d take strong labour unions over labour market legislation and governmental income redistribution schemes any day.I don't know for sure but I think there is a difference between U.S. Labor Unions and European Labour.

[green lantern]

unions have there good and bad points, but on the grand scale of things, they have contributed greatly to this country, you can thank unions for safer workplaces, and for helping to expand the American middle class.

[Eddie]

I don't know for sure but I think there is a difference between U.S. Labor Unions and European Labour.

Yeah, probably, there are many differences between the labour unions in different European countries as well.

[Jarlaxle]

Not passenger tires as I said. Only the huge industrial type tires for heavy equipment. We have a Goodyear plant here that does such. No passenger tires. Labor's too expensive.
What type of engines? I'm just guessing but they're probably heavy industrial. My last Ford in 2000 had a German engine and a French transmission and was a serious piece of SHART! There wasn't an american made part on the thing, other than the assembly and paint I suppose. Hell the paint was probably shipped in from China and applied here.
I'm sure you could find a few examples. My point is much larger than the nits you're picking.

The Kellys (made by Goodyear) on my Olds are US-made. Michelin (and their subsidiary BF Goodrich), Bridgestone/Firestone, and I think Continental/General make passenger tires in the US, as does specialty manufacturer Coker.

Chrysler still runs their Trenton, MI engine plant. Ford builds modular V8's in Romeo, Michigan, and I think V6's in the famous Cleveland, Ohio factory. Also, they pour blocks & heads in Dearborn. GM screws together truck V8's in, IIRC, Texas. Just to the north, the Windsor, Ontario plant is still running.

Ford & GM don't build any heavy industrial engines anymore.

[USA-1]

unions have there good and bad points, but on the grand scale of things, they have contributed greatly to this country, you can thank unions for safer workplaces, and for helping to expand the American middle class.
I agree. Todays unions and management must work together to make sure their companys are profitable. They should share in the good times and suffer together in the bad.

[Bassman]

Unfortunately, alot of unions still hold to the old "us vs. them" mentality.

[USA-1]

Unfortunately, alot of unions still hold to the old "us vs. them" mentality.
Many employers hold that same mentallity. Thats the problem.

[lord tammerlain]

Many employers hold that same mentallity. Thats the problem.


Yes it is, to much competition and animosity between the employees in a company. Management dislikes the line worker, the line worker dislikes the management, and the company suffers. While in a Japanese managed company the line worker seem to like management and management respects line worker

[USA-1]

Yes it is, to much competition and animosity between the employees in a company. Management dislikes the line worker, the line worker dislikes the management, and the company suffers. While in a Japanese managed company the line worker seem to like management and management respects line worker
I work in a non union company that has benefits and wages as good or better than union companies. It is an old company that still believes that the employees are just as important to the prosperity of the company as any other factor. Management and workers work closely together to increase productivity and everyone shares in the profits. Companies like this are a dying breed.

[Ophelia]

I work in a non union company that has benefits and wages as good or better than union companies. It is an old company that still believes that the employees are just as important to the prosperity of the company as any other factor. Management and workers work closely together to increase productivity and everyone shares in the profits. Companies like this are a dying breed.

But I'll bet they're the most successful. I'm no management guru, but it seems to me that companies where it's labor vs. management all the time can't compete very well on the world stage.

Several years ago, I heard on the news about a family-owned textile mill in New England burned down. the employees feared that the owner would just take the insurance money and run, leaving them jobless. Instead, he and the employees worked together to rebuild the place, and today it makes a new fleece type of fabric (polartec, I believe). This is the kind of good thing that can happen when management and employees work together.