David Horowitz /Ward Churchill Debate

[GI Joe]

The Horowitz/Churchill debate will air on C-SPAN Sat. April 15, at 8 PM EST. The audio is available here (http://rightalk.listenz.com/!ARCHIVES/ChurchillVSHorowitz2-64-44M.mp3)

Video excerpt here (http://link3.streamhoster.com/?u=seanruiz&p=%2Fdhvswc060406.wmv&odaid=3637)



David Horowitz makes the leftist Ward Churchill his little ***** :lol: :lol:
He pimp smacks him all over the place

[JD3]

The Horowitz/Churchill debate will air on C-SPAN Sat. April 15, at 8 PM EST. The audio is available here (http://rightalk.listenz.com/!ARCHIVES/ChurchillVSHorowitz2-64-44M.mp3)



David Horowitz makes the leftist Ward Churchill his little ***** :lol: :lol:
He pimp smacks him all over the place


Why would anyone care about either of these two? :confused: :confused:

[GI Joe]

Why would anyone care about either of these two? :confused: :confused:


Well maybe because Horowitz has it right

[JD3]

Well maybe because Horowitz has it right

No, he's an idealological hack who has no clue how to do a study. He actually has if factually all wrong. But Horowitz knows he wrong and being wrong on purpose. That knowledge rates him slightly higher than the idiot Churchill, but not much.

[GI Joe]

No, he's an idealological hack who has no clue how to do a study. He actually has if factually all wrong. But Horowitz knows he wrong and being wrong on purpose. That knowledge rates him slightly higher than the idiot Churchill, but not much.


And you base this on what?

[burntgorilla]

Well maybe because Horowitz has it right

Or maybe because he is a rightist.

[JD3]

And you base this on what?


Knowledge. We've disected his work many times. Horowitz's entire premise and methodology is faulty.

[serenity]

Horowitz is a clown, to put it mildly. I receive periodic email "Activism Reports" from him (it's a long story...suffice it to say he thinks I"m someone else).

Here's a sample, verbatim (nore how he "dumbs it down" for us ordinary yokels):

"Dear Michael [yep, that's my name]:

University is meant to be a place where our young people can learn and grow and prepare for the future.

But there is a sinister movement on our nation's campuses. The RADICAL LEFT is attempting to indoctrinate your children.

These are the FIFTH COLUMNISTS--communists, anti-Americans, and TERRORIST SUPPORTERS--whose primary agenda is to indoctrinate youth into hating America.

snip


My activism work, and that of my colleagues, relies SOLELY on ordinary citizens like yourself [this is a direct lie, just incidentally; horowitz is heavily funded by people who are anything but "ordinary citizens like myself"]. I am asking for your donations. There are many organizations nation-wide whose mandate is to EXPOSE the haters of Freedom, but they need your help!.....


So you see, this is the kind of really excellent stuff peddled by Mr. David Horowitz. It's funny, though, I'll give him that much.

[The_Penguin]

Horowitz is a clown, to put it mildly. I receive periodic email "Activism Reports" from him (it's a long story...suffice it to say he thinks I"m someone else).

Here's a sample, verbatim (nore how he "dumbs it down" for us ordinary yokels):

"Dear Michael [yep, that's my name]:

University is meant to be a place where our young people can learn and grow and prepare for the future.

But there is a sinister movement on our nation's campuses. The RADICAL LEFT is attempting to indoctrinate your children.

These are the FIFTH COLUMNISTS--communists, anti-Americans, and TERRORIST SUPPORTERS--whose primary agenda is to indoctrinate youth into hating America.

snip


My activism work, and that of my colleagues, relies SOLELY on ordinary citizens like yourself [this is a direct lie, just incidentally; horowitz is heavily funded by people who are anything but "ordinary citizens like myself"]. I am asking for your donations. There are many organizations nation-wide whose mandate is to EXPOSE the haters of Freedom, but they need your help!.....


So you see, this is the kind of really excellent stuff peddled by Mr. David Horowitz.
... and there many on the left that would say that Bush is a milder version of Hitler. Seems to me that there are many political 'comentators', 'scholar's and 'intellectuals' from both sides that deserve to be laughed at just as much as Horowitz, wouldn't you agree?
It's funny, though, I'll give him that much.
No, this (https://secure2.convio.net/va/site/Ecommerce?VIEW_PRODUCT=true&product_id=1081&store_id=1241&JServSessionIdr011=tzjhk9f8k2.app1a) is funny :) .

[JD3]

Yes, all sides have their clowns. I think we agree on that.

[nonsqtr]

Ward Churchill, in spite of his extremism, is a force to be reckoned with. He has a lot of good things to say. He doesn't always say them very well, but I can appreciate why it's difficult to put that stuff into words.

I watched that debate a couple' days ago, it was pretty good. Both David and Ward got their points across, and it was civil and well-tended.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not a Ward-Churchill-supporter. But neither am I a Horowitz-supporter.

The debate was good though. :)

[patrickt]

"Ward Churchill, in spite of his extremism, is a force to be reckoned with. He has a lot of good things to say. He doesn't always say them very well, but I can appreciate why it's difficult to put that stuff into words."

Well, one wouldn't really expect a tenured college professor to be able to express himself well.

There are some significant differences between Horowitz and Churchill.

I don't have to support Horowitz. He's a private person in a private business. You don't like what he says then you don't give him money. Churchill is very well paid by the state.

To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Horowitz has never assaulted those who disagree with him.

Horowitz is Jewish. Churchill is an Indian except he isn't.

My personal feeling is the University of Colorado should be required to keep Professor Churchill. He's what they wanted. Unfortunately, he got more press than they expected.

[JD3]

"Ward Churchill, in spite of his extremism, is a force to be reckoned with. He has a lot of good things to say. He doesn't always say them very well, but I can appreciate why it's difficult to put that stuff into words."

Well, one wouldn't really expect a tenured college professor to be able to express himself well.

There are some significant differences between Horowitz and Churchill.

I don't have to support Horowitz. He's a private person in a private business. You don't like what he says then you don't give him money. Churchill is very well paid by the state.

To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Horowitz has never assaulted those who disagree with him.

Horowitz is Jewish. Churchill is an Indian except he isn't.

My personal feeling is the University of Colorado should be required to keep Professor Churchill. He's what they wanted. Unfortunately, he got more press than they expected.

Believe it or not the entire state argument doesn't work very well for me. If we excused everyone some tax payor objected to, no one would be able tech let alone bring up anything of controvesy or importance. Whether it be Churchill or Horowitz or someone like either of them, what is important is that state schools hear what both have to say and everything inbetween.

If we ban anything at all, it should only be those things that promote violence. Otherwise, let everyone speak.

[patrickt]

I'll agree, JD3, when the taxpayers pay everyone to speak. I don't think the ads for teachers or professors say, "Have a personal forum with a captive audience to proselytize to your hearts content."

[JD3]

I'll agree, JD3, when the taxpayers pay everyone to speak. I don't think the ads for teachers or professors say, "Have a personal forum with a captive audience to proselytize to your hearts content."

What do you think higher education is? Seriously?

Facts and dates should be memorized before you engage higher education. At major insititutions people are not hired because they are great teachers. Few "teach" at all. They have grad students for that. They are hired because they have points or view or research in a specific area. They speak and influence thought as they are suppose to. If they had nothing new, no one would really want them on staff.

Also, college students often engage in debate, especially upperclassmen and higher level courses. So, have no fear. You can't get to new thought without challenging preconcieved notions.

[patrickt]

I understand that you and I disagree on the issue. It has nothing to do with free speech. It also has nothing to do with new ideas and thoughts. The thoughts and ideas of most are not new, in fact they are antiquated, but they are popular with the other professors.

[burntgorilla]

At major insititutions people are not hired because they are great teachers. Few "teach" at all. They have grad students for that.

I always felt undergrad students got a bad return for their fees in that respect.

It's also interesting that noone thinks that British universities are hidden nests of Liberals.

[JD3]

I understand that you and I disagree on the issue. It has nothing to do with free speech. It also has nothing to do with new ideas and thoughts. The thoughts and ideas of most are not new, in fact they are antiquated, but they are popular with the other professors.

That isn't right either. Professors argue all the time. You should sit in on a department meeting sometime and watch departmental politics. NAsty stuff I tell you.

And if you talk to professors they will tell you it is about freedom. Academic freedom is one of the few things will unite nearly all professors regardless of political pursausion. Deeply conservative professors worry about this movement to squash voices in college. And few students will accept either.

[JD3]

I always felt undergrad students got a bad return for their fees in that respect.




I have felt sorry for more than few. ;)

[serenity]

If campus leftist profesors were such a dire threat to our young people, and were inculcating them with dangerous ideas, and were so unfairly representing only radical ideas designed to indoctrinate....and this has been going on for forty years, according to Horowitz et al....then why isn't our nation teeming with these indoctrinated leftists?

Could it possibly be that all this campus radical stuff is nothing but alarmist nonsense?

[JD3]

If campus leftist profesors were such a dire threat to our young people, and were inculcating them with dangerous ideas, and were so unfairly representing only radical ideas designed to indoctrinate....and this has been going on for forty years, according to Horowitz et al....then why isn't our nation teeming with these indoctrinated leftists?

Could it possibly be that all this campus radical stuff is nothing but alarmist nonsense?


Yes, that would be what it means. Absolutely.

[patrickt]

I love absolutes.

[JD3]

I love absolutes.


Yeah, that's why I fight them. If you say liberal professors absolutely indoctrinate, the question is where is the evidence to support that when there are so many conservatives. Horowitz's premise falls apart when you actually measure such things.

[jamesrage]

Horowitz is a clown, to put it mildly. I receive periodic email "Activism Reports" from him (it's a long story...suffice it to say he thinks I"m someone else).

Here's a sample, verbatim (nore how he "dumbs it down" for us ordinary yokels):

"Dear Michael [yep, that's my name]:

University is meant to be a place where our young people can learn and grow and prepare for the future.

But there is a sinister movement on our nation's campuses. The RADICAL LEFT is attempting to indoctrinate your children.

These are the FIFTH COLUMNISTS--communists, anti-Americans, and TERRORIST SUPPORTERS--whose primary agenda is to indoctrinate youth into hating America.


When we have anti-americans like Ward Churchill infesting our universities and colleges like a virus,there is a radical left movement to brainwash our children.

[JoeR]

News flash - college kids aren't children, and aren't easily "brainwashed"

[jamesrage]

News flash - college kids aren't children, and aren't easily "brainwashed"

I keep hearing and for some reason I do not beleave who says that,because these anti-americans are teaching and instilling their brainwashing onto their students.

If the teachers were right wing extreamist and real christians I beleave the Ward Churchill supporters would be opposing these teachers.

[patrickt]

Fortunately, I've never said that professors, of any ilk, absolutely do anything. And I am familiar with campus politics. They seem to focus most often on office and parking spaces. When political issues come up in discussion the only disagreement seems to be in exactly how bad "they" are.

[::Major_Baker::]

I keep hearing and for some reason I do not beleave who says that,because these anti-americans are teaching and instilling their brainwashing onto their students.

If the teachers were right wing extreamist and real christians I beleave the Ward Churchill supporters would be opposing these teachers.

Maybe you should try going to college and see if you are indoctrinated by the likes of Churchill.

I think real indoctrination, is done via religious instruction, to KIDS by parents and teachers at religious instituions--when the mind is too young to think rationally.

[JD3]

Fortunately, I've never said that professors, of any ilk, absolutely do anything. And I am familiar with campus politics. They seem to focus most often on office and parking spaces. When political issues come up in discussion the only disagreement seems to be in exactly how bad "they" are.

You need to come by here. Students are grading the cartoons me and an opponent professor are putting up outside our door. ;)

At the Chicago CCCC conference I heard a lot from all kinds of people that might suprise you.

[chris99]

I listened to the debate and thought that churchill was great. I heard him speak in Toronto before and he was quite clear and concise. His view here is quite in line with other noted speakers on pedagogy such as hooks, Freire, Girouox, Zinn and Apple. Horowitz merely gave anaecdotal examples of incidents that Chuchill and none of the other speakers on pedagogy would accept. They are against any totalitarianism of any kind whether left or right. For an expanded version of what Churchill was talking about in case you did not understand I suggest checking out Paulo Freire for more information (the others are great too...).

Horowitz's case would have been much stronger had he some quantitative data....most times they were talking at cross purposes and Horowitz refused it seemed to engage with Chuchill's case that teaching is necessarily political. He seemed quite weak in my opinion and his name calling Zinn as a "stalinist" is quite rude and totally untrue as Zinn is an anarchist not a stalinist....with his appeals to only allowing authorities or experts to speak on the matter you would think that an old stalinist like him would refrain from speaking about anarchists like they were ever friends with his totalitarian apoligists....but then he might just not know how little he knows on the subjects of education and politics. Possible. Especially given what I heard on the debate.

[jamesrage]

Maybe you should try going to college and see if you are indoctrinated by the likes of Churchill.

I go to a technical college and politics and religion is two things we really do not discuss.

I think real indoctrination, is done via religious instruction, to KIDS by parents and teachers at religious instituions--when the mind is too young to think rationally.For some reason I do not picture college students remember what their mom and dad taught them when they are getting **** faced drunk at party.

[JD3]

I go to a technical college and politics and religion is two things we really do not discuss.
For some reason I do not picture college students remember what their mom and dad taught them when they are getting **** faced drunk at party.


Perhaps not, but when they are ****faced drunk, they aren't remembering what their teacher said either. ;)

[jamesrage]

Perhaps not, but when they are ****faced drunk, they aren't remembering what their teacher said either. ;)

While they are in school miles away from home the values that thier mom and dad taught them are mute when compared to the political ideology the anti-american professers spew.

[JD3]

While they are in school miles away from home the values that thier mom and dad taught them are mute when compared to the political ideology the anti-american professers spew.

I don't find that to be true. Have seen a mindless follower yet. I have seen a mindless, "I don't care" student (maybe a majority), but not a follower. They don't accept the republican history teacher or myself. Most just want a grade and to go home. Sadly.