Atheistic life Moot?

[Dangerrmouse]

I am truely sorry to hear that Dangerrmouse, my best friend passed not to long ago and although it is not the same, I feel for ya.

But you still have a Heavenly Father waiting for you now!

Please do not patronise. Why should you feel sorrow for the death of the parents of someone you do not know. They lived, they passed on their genes, they died. All normal and natural.
Why should anyone who believes in an afterlife (which is presumed to be wonderful) express regret at somone's passing on to it?

As to fathers, heavenly or otherwise, I have neither, and am content.

[heel31ok]

Very interesting, now you know what Sub is thinking, as well as answering for him. Which of you is the sock puppet? ;)
What has that got to do with my post? sub answers for himself and I answer for myself.I respond to the post.I think sub certainly is not a puppet but more of a free thinker who makes up his own mind.

[Meek Heir]

Athiests believe that there is no god.

Agnostics say that they don't know. The definition of agnostic is unknowing.

There is a difference between saying that there is no god and that you don't know whether there is a god or not.

Who exactly was this aimed at?

And technically, athiests don't believe in Gods. Which is different.

[sub_zer0]

Please do not patronise. Why should you feel sorrow for the death of the parents of someone you do not know. They lived, they passed on their genes, they died. All normal and natural.

Dangerrmouse, I have no ill will towards you, I pray for you my friend, I am not patronising.

Why should anyone who believes in an afterlife (which is presumed to be wonderful) express regret at somone's passing on to it?

As to fathers, heavenly or otherwise, I have neither, and am content.

You do not know the afterlife that I know as it is wonderful, but not for all. I am just here to tell ya that God is waiting with His Son's death for you!

[Dangerrmouse]

You do not know the afterlife that I know as it is wonderful,

You can know no more of an afterlife than anyone alive, which is zero. It is wishful thinking, at best.

[sub_zer0]

You can know no more of an afterlife than anyone alive, which is zero. It is wishful thinking, at best.

No it is solidly based upon the word of God, which has not been seriously challenged yet on this board or in the world for that matter on its truthness of its writings.

[Dangerrmouse]

...Or a cruel fraud, at worst, for how does the victim complain if the package is not as described?

[neo of the mind]

Please do not patronise. Why should you feel sorrow for the death of the parents of someone you do not know. They lived, they passed on their genes, they died. All normal and natural.
Why should anyone who believes in an afterlife (which is presumed to be wonderful) express regret at somone's passing on to it?

As to fathers, heavenly or otherwise, I have neither, and am content.


We are not expressing or regret of them passing on to it, we are expressing our sympathy for you, in that your parents are not with you. Heaven is a wonderful place and it is a very good feeling to know that loved ones that have passed away are there, but you still miss them.

[dittohead not!]

You can know no more of an afterlife than anyone alive, which is zero. It is wishful thinking, at best.

Here are some living people who have a little experience with the afterlife. Of course, their experiences were brief, so we can't really draw any conclusions other than that there is ample evidence that there is an afterlife:

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF_NDEs.htm

[steveksux]

Here are some living people who have a little experience with the afterlife. Of course, their experiences were brief, so we can't really draw any conclusions other than that there is ample evidence that there is an afterlife:

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF_NDEs.htmOr that dreams and/or halucinations are common as the brain shuts down due to lack of oxygen. I suspect those are pre-and near death experiences rather than experience of an afterlife.

Randy

[dittohead not!]

Or that dreams and/or halucinations are common as the brain shuts down due to lack of oxygen. I suspect those are pre-and near death experiences rather than experience of an afterlife.

Randy

There is no proof one way or the other, of course, but there are some things that are hard to explain in terms of dreams and hallucinations:

Many commentators see near death experiences as an afterlife experience. This often implies the view that the NDE can not be explained by physiological or psychological causes only, and that consciousness, in some instances, might function independently of brain activity (Rivas, 2003). Some NDE-accounts include elements that, according to some theorists, are most simply explained by an out-of-body consciousness. For example, in one account, a woman accurately described a surgical instrument she had not seen previously, as well as a conversation that occurred while she was understood to be clinically dead (Sabom, 1998). In another account, from a proactive Dutch NDE study [1], a nurse removed the dentures of an unconscious heart attack victim, and was asked by him after his recovery to return them (van Lommel et.al, 2001).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience

[FlyingGuineapig]

Or that dreams and/or halucinations are common as the brain shuts down due to lack of oxygen. I suspect those are pre-and near death experiences rather than experience of an afterlife.

Well, it's interesting that a lot of near-death experiences are very similar - whereas other dreams/hallucinations aren't anywhere near as universal. Also, they tend to be overwhelming described as spiritual - something dreams/hallucinations seldom are. At least to those who experience them, there doesn't seem to be much comparison to that.

It's also interesting that NDEs seem to stretch across multiple religions and beliefs.

[Dangerrmouse]

Here are some living people who have a little experience with the afterlife. Of course, their experiences were brief, so we can't really draw any conclusions other than that there is ample evidence that there is an afterlife:

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF_NDEs.htm

Not to be pedantic, but a near-death experience is not death. It follows that having not been dead, nobody who claims to have experienced an "afterlife" can possibly have done so.

[dittohead not!]

Not to be pedantic, but a near-death experience is not death. It follows that having not been dead, nobody who claims to have experienced an "afterlife" can possibly have done so.

So don't call it near death. When the soul leaves the body, that's death. These people died, just not permanently. ;)

[Dangerrmouse]

So don't call it near death. When the soul leaves the body, that's death. These people died, just not permanently. ;)

If they are still alive, they didn't die, therefore "near death".

[steveksux]

The problem is defining death. Your heart stopping? Not dead. The brain continues on for some 4-5 minutes with dwindling oxygen supplies before death. As its slowly starving for oxygen, do you mean to tell me its not malfunctioning? And if its malfunctioning, why should memories or dreams that occur in that timespan be considered reliable?

I'm not buying it.

Randy

[heel31ok]

The problem is defining death. Your heart stopping? Not dead. The brain continues on for some 4-5 minutes with dwindling oxygen supplies before death. As its slowly starving for oxygen, do you mean to tell me its not malfunctioning? And if its malfunctioning, why should memories or dreams that occur in that timespan be considered reliable?

I'm not buying it.

Randy
how long is long enough? 1 hour, 8 hrs, 1 day?
What exactly are you buying?

[steveksux]

how long is long enough? 1 hour, 8 hrs, 1 day?
What exactly are you buying?Why don't you tell us all what you're babbliing about so we can respond...

Randy

[heel31ok]

Why don't you tell us all what you're babbliing about so we can respond...

Randy
Reading is fundamental. :rolleyes:

[steveksux]

Reading is fundamental. :rolleyes:Well then, get yourself a fun with phonics set and have at it.... :lol: You have some catching up to do.

Randy

[heel31ok]

Well then, get yourself a fun with phonics set and have at it.... :lol: You have some catching up to do.

Randy
Nice diversion again, so you still do not know or purposely avoiding the question.

[heel31ok]

The problem is defining death. Your heart stopping? Not dead. The brain continues on for some 4-5 minutes with dwindling oxygen supplies before death. As its slowly starving for oxygen, do you mean to tell me its not malfunctioning? And if its malfunctioning, why should memories or dreams that occur in that timespan be considered reliable?

I'm not buying it.

Randy
Ok i'll try to catch up.in your post you question when death actually occurs. defining death.then you said the brain continues some 4-5 minutes w/ dwindling oxygen supplies before death. now at this point in the context of the rest of the post,how long is long enough after the heart stops to actually be dead? Is 4-5 minutes your time line ? Or do you think it is longer? How long is long enough? 1 hr,5 hrs,12 hrs, 24hrs,2-3 days,or more?

[dittohead not!]

I defined death for you several posts back. Death is when the soul leaves the body.

The body isn't going to start up again once the soul leaves, unless that soul comes back. It's like turning off a car and getting out. The car is just going to sit there until you come back and start it up again. Just because the lights are on, the car is still unoccupied. It's the same with a body. There may be some functions left, but the body is unoccupied, in other words, dead.

[Dangerrmouse]

Ok i'll try to catch up.in your post you question when death actually occurs. defining death.then you said the brain continues some 4-5 minutes w/ dwindling oxygen supplies before death. now at this point in the context of the rest of the post,how long is long enough after the heart stops to actually be dead? Is 4-5 minutes your time line ? Or do you think it is longer? How long is long enough? 1 hr,5 hrs,12 hrs, 24hrs,2-3 days,or more?

Depending on the cause of death, brain death may occur some time before or after the heart stops beating. It is a simple test to measure this. Check any medical/biology textbook.

[Dangerrmouse]

I defined death for you several posts back. Death is when the soul leaves the body.

The body isn't going to start up again once the soul leaves, unless that soul comes back. It's like turning off a car and getting out. The car is just going to sit there until you come back and start it up again. Just because the lights are on, the car is still unoccupied. It's the same with a body. There may be some functions left, but the body is unoccupied, in other words, dead.

Less simple to measure is whether a soul exists. How do you tell when Elvis has left the building?

[steveksux]

Ok i'll try to catch up.in your post you question when death actually occurs. defining death.then you said the brain continues some 4-5 minutes w/ dwindling oxygen supplies before death. now at this point in the context of the rest of the post,how long is long enough after the heart stops to actually be dead? Is 4-5 minutes your time line ? Or do you think it is longer? How long is long enough? 1 hr,5 hrs,12 hrs, 24hrs,2-3 days,or more?Wow. That's your brilliant question? :rolleyes: How long do YOU think the brain survives without oxygen? Or is medical science ungodly and false too? :lol: Hours? Days? :laughter: With God all things are possible, including astounding levels of ignorance it seems.

Its pretty well established that roughly 4-5 minutes is it. After that, you're brain dead. And people do not come back from that.

The only exception I'm aware of is where young people get immersed in very cold water and that mamallian diving reflex kicks in, which you can thank evolution for by the way, where the cold slows the metabolism of the brain down enough to reduce the oxygen demands, and the blood flow is restricted to extremities, forcing all available oxygen to the brain. And that doesn't extend the 4-5 minute window much. Less than an hour or thereabouts.

Randy

[FlyingGuineapig]

Its pretty well established that roughly 4-5 minutes is it. After that, you're brain dead. And people do not come back from that.

Actually, folks do sometimes come back from it (some folks who have been both "heart" and "brain" dead for as long as 20 minutes - with the absense of brain activity being monitored by an EEG) - and recount the usual Near-Death experiences. (A search on most NDE websites will talk about this)

Now, I don't know if the NDE they describe experiencing continues to occur after the brain death occurs. And some folks have argued that the EEG is just measuring higher-level brain activity (the cortex, I guess), so it's possible other portions of the brain operate for longer.

[steveksux]

Actually, folks do sometimes come back from it (some folks who have been both "heart" and "brain" dead for as long as 20 minutes - with the absense of brain activity being monitored by an EEG) - and recount the usual Near-Death experiences. (A search on most NDE websites will talk about this)

Now, I don't know if the NDE they describe experiencing continues to occur after the brain death occurs. And some folks have argued that the EEG is just measuring higher-level brain activity (the cortex, I guess), so it's possible other portions of the brain operate for longer.I'd be more inclined to believe if it was featured in medical sources rather than NDE sources... Seems like that would be big news.

Randy

[FlyingGuineapig]

I'd be more inclined to believe if it was featured in medical sources rather than NDE sources... Seems like that would be big news.
Randy
This is going to sound wierd, but based on my experiences (I'm the sole engineer in a in-law family of various medical folks, with my wife an oral surgeon), the medical community tends to be pretty divided on this sort of stuff. Folks come out of medical school/internships with pretty much the same beliefs they went in with.

For the really big questions (e.g. when does human life begin, when does it end, is there a soul, are NDEs real or just dreams, is abortion murder, etc), you're not going to get anymore agreement in a room filled with surgeons than you'll find on this board - other than about 30% of the Biology GRE is on evolution/genetics (and probably the same for the MCATs), so you won't find too many YECs in the crowd :)

[heel31ok]

Wow. That's your brilliant question? :rolleyes: How long do YOU think the brain survives without oxygen? Or is medical science ungodly and false too? :lol: Hours? Days? :laughter: With God all things are possible, including astounding levels of ignorance it seems.

Its pretty well established that roughly 4-5 minutes is it. After that, you're brain dead. And people do not come back from that.

The only exception I'm aware of is where young people get immersed in very cold water and that mamallian diving reflex kicks in, which you can thank evolution for by the way, where the cold slows the metabolism of the brain down enough to reduce the oxygen demands, and the blood flow is restricted to extremities, forcing all available oxygen to the brain. And that doesn't extend the 4-5 minute window much. Less than an hour or thereabouts.

Randy
4-5 minutes? The way you posted previously I thought maybe you considered it to take a long time . I just wanted you to narrow it down to a time. If 4-5 minutes is all it takes then there are those who were dead and came back.
Lazarus , Jesus , the young girl Jesus raised.
Also there are those in modern times who were dead longer than the 5 minutes you require.so if that is the requirement then after death experience do happen.Which is different than near death experiences.
of course a funny thought is how many of the "near" deaths have similar experiences. I have no firm backing but it is just a thought , if it is merely the brain hallucinating why do they not hallucinate about different things and places, Hawaii, favorite restaurant, childhood favorite places? Just a thought.