Nazi Germany Based On Humanism and/or Atheism!

[brainpan]

Nazi Germany was based on humanism. A perfect example of it...I will though concede that my definition of a Humanist was in relation to Atheists, which is what I consider Nazism to partly adhere to.So humanism, especially atheistic humanism, was perfectly expressed by Nazi Germany? That's a pretty bold statement, NotM, but probably not too accurate. I suspect you would have some difficulty proving that assertion. I'll let Hitler begin the discussion, and you can join in whenever you're ready.

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

"The National Socialist Movement has wrought this miracle. If Almighty God granted success to this work, then the Party was His instrument."

[brainpan]

Hitler's still waiting for your rebuttal, Neo. He said the Nazis were the instrument of God and that they had stamped out atheism. Obviously, you think you know more about Hitler and the Nazis than Hitler and the Nazis did. So lay out your case.

[mataj]

Programme of the NSDAP, 24 February 1920

http://www.hitler.org/writings/programme/

24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

[steveksux]

In point of fact, it doesn't really matter whether Nazism was based on atheism or Christianity, because it was (or would have been) based on twisted unrecognizeable distortions of those, since neither philosophy actually supports wholesale extermination of other people.

Its merely an attempt to smear by association, a cheap shot.

Randy

[brainpan]

I tend to agree with you, Randy. You make a good point. sub zero sought to blame evolutionary theory for the rise of Nazism, and neo wants atheism/humanism to take credit. Like I said earlier, I suspect neo will have a tough time making his case, what with an atheism stomping and Luther-quoting Hitler. :)

The only point of contention I think we have is that I wouldn't call atheism itself a philosophy, unless you want to call a simple lack of belief a philosophy.

[sub_zer0]

I tend to agree with you, Randy. You make a good point. sub zero sought to blame evolutionary theory for the rise of Nazism, and neo wants atheism/humanism to take credit. Like I said earlier, I suspect neo will have a tough time making his case, what with an atheism stomping and Luther-quoting Hitler. :)

Well, since atheism belief structure requires humanism and naturalism which is evolution, coupled with strongest survive which is also evolution. I can see a connection.

[mataj]

Its merely an attempt to smear by association, a cheap shot.Yea. Cheap shooters are tossing Hitler back and forth like a hot potato. Or, better yet, like a grenade at Serbian roulette (a cross between Russian Rulette and "hot potato" - you toss a hot potato, which is a primed grenade).

Whatever. There are no expensive shots in such debates, only cheap ones.

Well, since atheism belief structure requires humanism and naturalism which is evolution, coupled with strongest survive which is also evolution. I can see a connection.The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity.

http://www.hitler.org/writings/programme/

I can see no stronger connection than Nazi party programe. The then pope was a great admirer of Hitler as well.

[sub_zer0]

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity.

http://www.hitler.org/writings/programme/

I can see no stronger connection than Nazi party programe. The then pope was a great admirer of Hitler as well.

Nothing about (connected to, involved with, etc) Hitler or the Nazi party or Germany as a whole for that matter reflects anything Biblically that a Christian should be involved with!

What they call "The Party", which stands for "positive Christianity", is really the complete opposite! You just bought Hitlers propaganda hook, line and sinker as did the Pope at the time, and his involvment with Hitler reflects greatly the ruins the church was in.

[Izdaari]

What Hitler called 'Positive Christianity' barely resembles Christianity at all. He meant a version of it that supports Nazism. Well, of course he'd like that! What dictator wouldn't like a custom religion that supports their ideology?

But neither atheism/humanism nor evolution can fairly be blamed for Nazism. That has a clear intellectual pedigree tracing back to the ideas of William Godwin, Rousseau, De Sade, Condorcet, Marx and others. For a full explanation of that, see Leftism Revisited: From De Sade and Marx to Hitler and Pol Pot (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895265370/qid=1151616512/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-6653805-5043817?s=books&v=glance&n=283155), by Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn. It may be hard to find, but it's been one of the most enlightening books I've ever read.

[mataj]

Nothing about (connected to, involved with, etc) Hitler or the Nazi party or Germany as a whole for that matter reflects anything Biblically that a Christian should be involved with!

What they call "The Party", which stands for "positive Christianity", is really the complete opposite! You just bought Hitlers propaganda hook, line and sinker as did the Pope at the time, and his involvment with Hitler reflects greatly the ruins the church was in.Excuses, excuses, excuses. Programme states loud and clear: Christianity.
What Hitler called 'Positive Christianity' barely resembles Christianity at all. He meant a version of it that supports Nazism. Well, of course he'd like that! What dictator wouldn't like a custom religion that supports their ideology?

But neither atheism/humanism nor evolution can fairly be blamed for Nazism. That has a clear intellectual pedigree tracing back to the ideas of William Godwin, Rousseau, De Sade, Condorcet, Marx and others. For a full explanation of that, see Leftism Revisited: From De Sade and Marx to Hitler and Pol Pot (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895265370/qid=1151616512/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-6653805-5043817?s=books&v=glance&n=283155), by Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn. It may be hard to find, but it's been one of the most enlightening books I've ever read.De Sade? :laughter: Give me a break!

Hitler, Marx, and Pol Pot have about as much in common as Rouseau, De Sade, Marylin Monroe, and Ann Coulter.

There is nothing intellectual in ideology & politics, therefore there can be no such thing as "intellectual pedigree". It has been proven over and over again, that populace can't be convienced into anything by using intellect. The Idea to be sold to the masses has to be spiced with appeals to the lowest of human urges, repeated 1000 times over the mass media, and that's it. The less intelectual it is, the better.


http://www.purewatergazette.net/propagandainamerica.htm

. . . advertising and propaganda has been refined over the years into a malevolent science, based on the assumption that most people react, not to ideas, but to naked emotion. When I worked at an ad agency many years ago, I learned that the successful agencies know how to appeal to emotions: the stronger and baser, the better. The seven deadly sins, ad agency wags often say, are the key to selling products. Fear, envy, greed, hatred, and lust: these are the basic tools for good propaganda and effective advertising. By far, the most powerful motivating emotion—the top, most-sought-after copy writers will tell you, in an unguarded moment—is fear, followed closely by greed.

If you want to find out more, watch the documentary "the century of the self". You can download it from bit torrent, as well as many places on the internet, just google it up. Highly recommendable!

[brainpan]

Yea. Cheap shooters are tossing Hitler back and forth like a hot potato.I hope I can be forgiven that. I'm not the one who brought it up, I only wanted to punish the ones who did. I would be no less annoyed by the Hitler analogy than if a Christian blamed the Inquisition on atheism, and I think my attitude is justified. No?

[mataj]

I hope I can be forgiven that. I'm not the one who brought it up, I only wanted to punish the ones who did. I would be no less annoyed by the Hitler analogy than if a Christian blamed the Inquisition on atheism, and I think my attitude is justified. No?Yes, of course it's justified, but only intellectually.

Religion and PR go after your guts, not your intellect. Left to itself, human brain follows Pavlovian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Pavlov ), not Aristotelian logic. Pavlov's dogs started to salivate on the ring of a bell, after they heard that sound a thousand times before their food was delivered. They salivated despite of the fact, that there is no logical connection between the sound of a bell and food.

Similarily, typical TV-addicted zombie starts to equate atheism and Hitler after he/she hears them mentioned 1000 times in the same sentence despite of the fact, that there is no connection between theese two. That's the sole purpose of this Hitler-Atheism and Hitler-Christianity cheap shooting.

[brainpan]

Yes, of course it's justified, but only intellectually.I can live with that.
Similarily, typical TV-addicted zombie starts to equate atheism and Hitler after he/she hears them mentioned 1000 times in the same sentence despite of the fact, that there is no connection between theese two. That's the sole purpose of this Hitler-Atheism and Hitler-Christianity cheap shooting.I'm about ready to put this thing to bed, Mataj. I've vented on this subject in other threads and feel much better now. I don't blame Christianity for Hitler, but it is undeniable that there is a legitimate connection between it's past and the experience of Hitler. It's not exactly an accident that many of Martin Luther's pronouncements concerning the Jews are indistinguishable from Hitlers.

[Izdaari]

Excuses, excuses, excuses. Programme states loud and clear: Christianity.
De Sade? :laughter: Give me a break!

Hitler, Marx, and Pol Pot have about as much in common as Rouseau, De Sade, Marylin Monroe, and Ann Coulter.Read the book first, then see if you still feel like laughing.

There is nothing intellectual in ideology & politics, therefore there can be no such thing as "intellectual pedigree". It has been proven over and over again, that populace can't be convienced into anything by using intellect. The Idea to be sold to the masses has to be spiced with appeals to the lowest of human urges, repeated 1000 times over the mass media, and that's it. The less intelectual it is, the better.What you say is true of practical (or impractical) politics, and as a veteran of many political campaigns, I'm familiar enough with the techniques. But there is such a thing as political philosophy. As Ayn Rand was so fond of saying, "ideas have consequences"; i.e. what people believe affects how they think, and not just how they decide the issues but how they frame them. True that the masses may be easily led, and unaware of the philosophy behind the slogans, but they're often led not by cynics seeking power and self-aggrandizement, but by sincere, even fanatical idealists, who take political philosophy much more seriously than you do. Hitler, Lenin and Mao were that kind, as is bin Laden. Those kind are the most dangerous of all.

[mataj]

As Ayn Rand was so fond of saying, "ideas have consequences"; Ideas have consequences only on the way hypocrisy is played.

Ever since the WWI, there is no ideas anymore. Only fairy tales for cannon fodder.

I had the opportunity to see communist hypocrisy, as well as christian hypocrisy 1st hand. There is practically no difference. Even the hypocrites are the same. Most of them are able to change the stripe of their drivel virtually overnight- or even faster.

i.e. what people believe affects how they think,No. What people are supposed to believe affects how they talk.

True that the masses may be easily led, and unaware of the philosophy behind the slogans,The only dangerous philosophy behind the slogans goes as follows: "You have been extremely lucky to be born as a member of some very special nation/race/etc. That makes you better than other nations/races/etc, and gives you the right to boss them around, even if you are 100% loser."

That's about everything there is to it. Simple, very effective, but certainly not some complicated dark science, invented by De Sade centuries ago. Germans were ensnared by Hitler this way, for example, and Serbs by Milosevic.

but they're often led not by cynics seeking power and self-aggrandizement, but by sincere, even fanatical idealists, who take political philosophy much more seriously than you do. Hitler, Lenin and Mao were that kind, as is bin Laden. Those kind are the most dangerous of all.Fanatical idealists are not dangerous by themselves. There are multitudes of them running around. There's are a couple of potential Hitlers in every joint in every town in the world.

In order to achieve anything, fanatical idealist must be backed by wealthy cynics, who pay his bills, and provide intelligence, leaflets, placards, time on TV, jack boots, brown shirts, guns, ammo, dynamite, etc. Theese things cost an awful lot of money.

Hitler was a complete idiot, all mouth and no brains. If he wouldn't backed by a couple of wealthy industrialists (Krupp, Thyssen, Henry Ford, Bush family...) he would remain a nonentity.

Lenin was backed by Kaiser's secret service.

Bin Ladn is a CIA made prig. When he posed for videos, he hired a couple of kids for a couple of hours to cover their faces, and hop around him with kalashnikovs. Had the western media not made a celebrity out of him, he would remain a wastrel even in the Muslim world. The only VIP Bin Ladn is phylosophically compareable to is Paris Hilton. They would both be nobody and nothing without paparazzi.

[Izdaari]

Mataj,

That's a very interesting response, one of the most cynical I've ever read, but interesting. We aren't going to be able to agree on much I see, so I'll just make a few points in hopes of provoking some thought and let it go.

Hypocrisy is a human universal, and we all have it in some degree. To be disillusioned when you find that out, you must have first been illusioned.

Everyone has a philosophy, even those who claim to have none. It isn't possible to be a self-aware intelligent being and not have one. The world is too complex to comprehand directly, so we're able to understand how it works only by making mental models or simulations of it. We're effective and rational to the extent those mental simulations are accurate. Philosophy, including political philosophy, is part of that. Though it isn't possible to not have a philosophy, what is possible is to have an unexamined, unthinking one, which is indeed (and unfortunately) what most people have. Ideas (which include premises and assumptions) do have consequences. Ideas that are unthinking and unexamined tend to be dysfunctional.

The only dangerous philosophy behind the slogans goes as follows: "You have been extremely lucky to be born as a member of some very special nation/race/etc. That makes you better than other nations/races/etc, and gives you the right to boss them around, even if you are 100% loser."I would agree if we extend that to members of certain political philosophies and religions as well as nations and races. Any belief system that tells you it's ok to impose a totalitarian system on others for the sake of whatever it is you identify with or believe in would come under that heading, and is extremely dangerous.

I agree that fanatical idealists need backing to become truly dangerous. But such people have the motivation to find that backing, and often somebody somewhere finds enough advantage in providing it. Mao, whom you didn't mention, had the backing of the USSR, as did Ho Chi Minh and Castro.

[neo of the mind]

"Hitler was a complete idiot, all mouth and no brains. If he wouldn't backed by a couple of wealthy industrialists (Krupp, Thyssen, Henry Ford, Bush family...) he would remain a nonentity."

- Wow, You really think Hitler was an idiot? Granted, the drugs may have made him make some idiot decisions, like fighting on two fronts. But to say he is an idiot is paramount to saying Bush is an idiot. Which patently isn't true.


"Bin Ladn is a CIA made prig. When he posed for videos, he hired a couple of kids for a couple of hours to cover their faces, and hop around him with kalashnikovs. Had the western media not made a celebrity out of him, he would remain a wastrel even in the Muslim world. The only VIP Bin Ladn is phylosophically compareable to is Paris Hilton. They would both be nobody and nothing without paparazzi."

The media made Bin Laden? I think his actions are what made him. Without his actions, he would have been a "nobody" in the world.

[Dutch]

In the last year I've seen assertions made (on the history channel) that hitler was; gay, hitler was jewish, hitler was into the occult. I don't suppose we'll ever understand this guy. The europeans are pretty quick to point out hitlers christianity?!!? Hitler, in his lifetime, slept with his niece, lived in sin with a woman, started a second world war and then followed this up with death camps that still gross me out. The european view of christianity is far different than mine. ;)

[Dangerrmouse]

[COLOR=DarkSlateBlue] But to say he is an idiot is paramount to saying Bush is an idiot.

"Tantamount" is the word you meant, although your Hitler / Bush juxtaposition is specious.

[Izdaari]

In the last year I've seen assertions made (on the history channel) that hitler was; gay, hitler was jewish, hitler was into the occult. I don't suppose we'll ever understand this guy. The europeans are pretty quick to point out hitlers christianity?!!? Hitler, in his lifetime, slept with his niece, lived in sin with a woman, started a second world war and then followed this up with death camps that still gross me out. The european view of christianity is far different than mine. ;)Well, I understand he was raised Catholic, but he sure wasn't a good Catholic. Certainly his behavior was nothing like Christian. I have no doubt that he's frying in Hell.

[neo of the mind]

"Tantamount" is the word you meant, although your Hitler / Bush juxtaposition is specious.

Thanks, I knew it was a "mount" word. Your right, Bush wasn't as smart as Hitler. I am putting it more in perspective that there are people who are constantly calling Bush stupid, when the facts show he can't be. Stupid people do not attain is education, nor do they become the leaders of nations.
Like Hitler, he can be a lot of other things, but stupid is not one of them.

[mataj]

Mataj,

That's a very interesting response, one of the most cynical I've ever read, but interesting. Thanxx for the compliment :o

This is a society, that cannot see the wood for the trees, where every political discussion chokes on insignificant buerocratic and legal details, where big ideas never appear on political scene in the form of systematic propositions, where idealism and optimism are extremely rare commodities. (Erica Johnson Debeljak *)

We aren't going to be able to agree on much I see,I think that we disagree only on one point: I am deeply convinced, that the idea of "dangerous idea", "dangerous philosophy", and so on, is by itself far more dangerous than ideas it tries to label as dangerous. Such philosophy can lead to mind crime persecution and witch hunts far too easily.

Guns and ideas don't kill people; people kill people.

Marx does not preach gulags, and Christ does not preach inquisition- at least not directly. So, if you don't want to use double standards, and if you choose to blame Marx for gulags, you'll have to blame Christ for inquisition as well.

Hypocrisy is a human universal, and we all have it in some degree. To be disillusioned when you find that out, you must have first been illusioned.

Everyone has a philosophy, even those who claim to have none. Hypocrites I know are not dissilusioned, because hypocricy is their philosophy. Basically, it says: "If paying a lip service to a certain Idea brings profit, than let's pay a lip service to it". It's a proven concept, that never fails. I'm not very good at it, though. I lack the necessary theatrical talent, and worse still, I think it's stupid.

I guess you could call me a failed hypocrite.

The world is too complex to comprehand directly, so we're able to understand how it works only by making mental models or simulations of it. We're effective and rational to the extent those mental simulations are accurate. Philosophy, including political philosophy, is part of that. I agree. If I try to continue your thought a little bit: Our mentality depends on what we presume to be true until proven otherwise.

Though it isn't possible to not have a philosophy, what is possible is to have an unexamined, unthinking one, which is indeed (and unfortunately) what most people have. Ideas (which include premises and assumptions) do have consequences. Ideas that are unthinking and unexamined tend to be dysfunctional. True. I'd rather call that mentality, though. Unthinking, unexamined and dysfunctional ideas can hardly be called philosophy

__________________________________________________ ___

(*) http://www.blesok.com.mk/avtor.asp?lang=eng&id=947

Above quote is taken from a lenghty newspaper article, where she lambasts the rigid Slovenian schooling system (which currently processes her kids), and a nation of bean counters it produces.

[Meek Heir]

Well, I understand he was raised Catholic, but he sure wasn't a good Catholic. Certainly his behavior was nothing like Christian. I have no doubt that he's frying in Hell.

No one asserts that Hitler was a "good Christian" as most current practioners see it (or past practioners for that matter).

Instead they are asserting, (with supporting evidence) that Hitler's belief system included amoungst his views a warped version of Christianity where God had given him the duty to eradicate those who where inferior.

[Dangerrmouse]

Like Hitler, he can be a lot of other things, but stupid is not one of them.

What do you call a "C" student who brags about it?

[Izdaari]

What do you call a "C" student who brags about it?A conformist with anti-intellectual friends.

[Izdaari]

No one asserts that Hitler was a "good Christian" as most current practioners see it (or past practioners for that matter).

Instead they are asserting, (with supporting evidence) that Hitler's belief system included amoungst his views a warped version of Christianity where God had given him the duty to eradicate those who where inferior.I wouldn't argue with that, but his version had become so warped as to no longer be recognizable. As I understand, many of Hitler's inner circle, including himself perhaps, were heavily into dark forms of occultism. You could consider Satanism to be a twisted form of Christianity, and maybe that's what he was into. Not the LaVey version of course. That hadn't been invented.

[Nuke the Oil]

A conformist with anti-intellectual friends.

Sounds like a fancy way of saying stupid and proud of it!

[Kong]

No one asserts that Hitler was a "good Christian" as most current practioners see it (or past practioners for that matter).Hitler was a Christian in word only. He didn’t want to alienate the Christian public and he probably did believe that he was an instrument of god (no one really knows for sure). Hitler probably saw himself as a good and righteous man fulfilling his destiny and doing the will of god. The sad thing is people tend to follow this type of charismatic leader. How can we teach our children not to be fooled by this type of personality or seduced by the riches and power they offer?

[Kong]

What do you call a "C" student who brags about it?Proud to be humble!

[neo of the mind]

What do you call a "C" student who brags about it?

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/06/07/yale_grades_portray_kerry_as_a_lackluster_student? mode=PF

That's better than bragging about being a "D" student. LOL.

[Dangerrmouse]

Diversion. The topic is Bush's intelligence compared to Hitler.

[neo of the mind]

Diversion. The topic is Bush's intelligence compared to Hitler.


They both did poorly is school at one point. The fact that they became leaders of advanced nations is a clue to me that they were not "complete" idiots.

[Soc.Dem.]

In point of fact, it doesn't really matter whether Nazism was based on atheism or Christianity, because it was (or would have been) based on twisted unrecognizeable distortions of those, since neither philosophy actually supports wholesale extermination of other people.

Atheism is not a philosophy, it's simply absence of belief in the existence of deities.

Its merely an attempt to smear by association, a cheap shot.

That's for sure!

[heel31ok]

Well, I understand he was raised Catholic, but he sure wasn't a good Catholic. Certainly his behavior was nothing like Christian. I have no doubt that he's frying in Hell.
that is an interesting question, are peole who do not go to heaven frying in hell now or will be in the future?

[Meek Heir]

that is an interesting question, are peole who do not go to heaven frying in hell now or will be in the future?

Did you watch the 1:30 in the morning special I did?

It was very interesting in it's interpretations of life after death and whether or not it comes before or after final judgement (the prognosis of the speaker: after).

[Meek Heir]

I wouldn't argue with that, but his version had become so warped as to no longer be recognizable. As I understand, many of Hitler's inner circle, including himself perhaps, were heavily into dark forms of occultism. You could consider Satanism to be a twisted form of Christianity, and maybe that's what he was into. Not the LaVey version of course. That hadn't been invented.

Ultimately comparing Hitler to any philosphy practiced by non-mass murders is going to come up with some major differences. Which is why I generally don't value philosphies based upon their suppossed believers.

[Meek Heir]

Hitler was a Christian in word only. He didn’t want to alienate the Christian public and he probably did believe that he was an instrument of god (no one really knows for sure). Hitler probably saw himself as a good and righteous man fulfilling his destiny and doing the will of god. The sad thing is people tend to follow this type of charismatic leader. How can we teach our children not to be fooled by this type of personality or seduced by the riches and power they offer?

I'm pretty sure that Hitler was just Hitler and that any attempt to relate him to sane peoples beliefs is going to come up short every time.

[heel31ok]

Did you watch the 1:30 in the morning special I did?

It was very interesting in it's interpretations of life after death and whether or not it comes before or after final judgement (the prognosis of the speaker: after).
No i did not see it , what was their interpretation?

My question came from the common misconception in the christian worls that death of a non christian = immediate hell fire. from a biblical perspective I find that the ultimate end but only when satan and all his followers and what not are cast in the lake of fire which comes later.

[neo of the mind]

Luke 16:20-31

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
KJV


Seems pretty clear to me that there is a seperation of people after death. The final judgment being later, which may not seem like any time at all for those that have died, where the offical sentence is passed.

[chukster8614]

Hey Neo of the Mind, did you know that you seem pretty judgmental for a Christian.

[Dutch]

Well, I understand he was raised Catholic, but he sure wasn't a good Catholic. Certainly his behavior was nothing like Christian. I have no doubt that he's frying in Hell.

Maybe he was a "cafeteria catholic". :shrug:

[heel31ok]

Hey Neo of the Mind, did you know that you seem pretty judgmental for a Christian.
For the most part neo seems to have sound judgement for any kind of person.

[chukster8614]

For the most part neo seems to have sound judgement for any kind of person.
Well, excuse me for reacting to the inference that as an atheist that I'm also a Hitlerite.

Though I will concede Naziism was in some sense an escape from freedom of thought for a society, it's rather asinine to try and nail down such a complex question with one answer.

It's a little lilke saying that Christianity is responsible for the genocide of the North and South American indians, which it partly was. But it's not the main reason. Such factors as commerce played a big part as well.

[neo of the mind]

Hey Neo of the Mind, did you know that you seem pretty judgmental for a Christian.

I don't have any illusions that I am any less of a sinner than anyone else. My belief that Jesus Christ paid for my sins in full and will be what God sees in front of me at my day of judgement is very comforting. That being said, I look in the mirror when I ask questions of others, that may seem "judgemental". Maybe I have made a statement on this forum towards somebody that you deem to not be fair in some way. Point it out so I could consider it and take the appropriate action.

[neo of the mind]

Well, excuse me for reacting to the inference that as an atheist that I'm also a Hitlerite.

Though I will concede Naziism was in some sense an escape from freedom of thought for a society. However, it's rather asinine to try and nail down a complex question with one answer.


Thanks heel31ok for those gracious words.

chukster8614, when did I infer that Athesists were Nazis? I have stated that I think Hitler was an Atheist. That's like if I said the head of the KKK was a Christian, does that mean I am infering that all Christians are in the KKK?

The topic of this thread is the focus this extracted quote by me on post#1:

"Nazi Germany was based on humanism. A perfect example of it...I will though concede that my definition of a Humanist was in relation to Atheists, which is what I consider Nazism to partly adhere to."

[chukster8614]

I don't have any illusions that I am any less of a sinner than anyone else. My belief that Jesus Christ paid for my sins in full and will be what God sees in front of me at my day of judgement is very comforting. That being said, I look in the mirror when I ask questions of others, that may seem "judgemental". Maybe I have made a statement on this forum towards somebody that you deem to not be fair in some way. Point it out so I could consider it and take the appropriate action.
But to say Humanism is responsible for a society's atrocity toward a segment of its own population is too ludicrous to even touch. I can't help but be deeply offended by such assertion. I take it as an attack on my own belief system, which is also influenced by Christianity, among other things.

In fact, you could say the Christian principles I abide by have helped me form the core of the Humanistic principles that I live by today.

[neo of the mind]

But to say Humanism is responsible for a society's atrocity toward a segment of its own population is too ludicrous to even touch. I can't help but be deeply offended by such assertion. I take it as an attack on my own belief system, which is also influenced by Christianity, among other things.

In fact, you could say the Christian principles I abide by have helped me form the core of the Humanistic principles that I live by today.


"Nazi Germany was based on humanism. A perfect example of it...I will though concede that my definition of a Humanist was in relation to Atheists, which is what I consider Nazism to partly adhere to."

Did you notice the words in bold? I think sub zer0's quote below said it better than I did and was the jist of the basis of my comment.

"Well, since atheism belief structure requires humanism and naturalism which is evolution, coupled with strongest survive which is also evolution. I can see a connection." -sub zer0

[Lumpen Prole]

All atheists are not nazis; all Catholics don't sodomize alter boys; some white guys can jump.

Enough with theses types of threads already. :sleep:

[Meek Heir]

No i did not see it , what was their interpretation?

My question came from the common misconception in the christian worls that death of a non christian = immediate hell fire. from a biblical perspective I find that the ultimate end but only when satan and all his followers and what not are cast in the lake of fire which comes later.

Well the jist of it was that upon death the body is buried and in effect the consciousness is buried with it. (Just kind of goes to sleep.) Then at some later date, (AKA the Rapture and Judgement) everyone awakes and is judged.

He quotes various scripture in support, not that I remember which ones. I'm sure it was a replay of a special at a different time, but I only saw it when I did because I was too sore to go to sleep.

[sub_zer0]

Well the jist of it was that upon death the body is buried and in effect the consciousness is buried with it. (Just kind of goes to sleep.) Then at some later date, (AKA the Rapture and Judgement) everyone awakes and is judged.

He quotes various scripture in support, not that I remember which ones. I'm sure it was a replay of a special at a different time, but I only saw it when I did because I was too sore to go to sleep.

Those views I do not think can have a strong basis in Scripture.

[heel31ok]

Well the jist of it was that upon death the body is buried and in effect the consciousness is buried with it. (Just kind of goes to sleep.) Then at some later date, (AKA the Rapture and Judgement) everyone awakes and is judged.

He quotes various scripture in support, not that I remember which ones. I'm sure it was a replay of a special at a different time, but I only saw it when I did because I was too sore to go to sleep.
I have heard that before there is some indication of that in the Bible.I know that the word for grave is sheol which indicates sleep.The one scripture that goes against that is " to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

the Bible says also, "we shall not all sleep but be changed in the twinkling of an eye." that is what I am holding out for. :D

It would be a good study to see the context of these statements in the light of this subject.I will have to remember as I have about 2 or 3 other things I am studying.

[heel31ok]

Well the jist of it was that upon death the body is buried and in effect the consciousness is buried with it. (Just kind of goes to sleep.) Then at some later date, (AKA the Rapture and Judgement) everyone awakes and is judged.

He quotes various scripture in support, not that I remember which ones. I'm sure it was a replay of a special at a different time, but I only saw it when I did because I was too sore to go to sleep.
what are you so sore from?

[sub_zer0]

I have heard that before there is some indication of that in the Bible.I know that the word for grave is sheol which indicates sleep.The one scripture that goes against that is " to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

the Bible says also, "we shall not all sleep but be changed in the twinkling of an eye." that is what I am holding out for. :D

So true, that is the rapture for believers.

It would be a good study to see the context of these statements in the light of this subject.I will have to remember as I have about 2 or 3 other things I am studying.

hehe, coo

[heel31ok]

All atheists are not nazis; all Catholics don't sodomize alter boys; some white guys can jump.

Enough with theses types of threads already. :sleep:
Hey now, what white guy can jump?

[Meek Heir]

I have heard that before there is some indication of that in the Bible.I know that the word for grave is sheol which indicates sleep.The one scripture that goes against that is " to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

the Bible says also, "we shall not all sleep but be changed in the twinkling of an eye." that is what I am holding out for. :D

It would be a good study to see the context of these statements in the light of this subject.I will have to remember as I have about 2 or 3 other things I am studying.

He actually used that scripture and said in effect that if we are all changed in a twinkling of the eye that it meant everyone changed at once, and that was the rapture. It was interesting. Dubious, but interesting.

[sub_zer0]

He actually used that scripture and said in effect that if we are all changed in a twinkling of the eye that it meant everyone changed at once, and that was the rapture. It was interesting. Dubious, but interesting.

Its good you realize the dubiousness of it, hehe.

What scriptures were they, if you remember let me know through PM or something.

[steveksux]

Hypocrisy is a human universal, and we all have it in some degree. You are such a hypocrite for saying that! ;) (Just kidding, since we all have some, by definition if you are correct, you are a hypocrite also...) :D

Everyone has a philosophy, even those who claim to have none. It isn't possible to be a self-aware intelligent being and not have one. The world is too complex to comprehand directly, so we're able to understand how it works only by making mental models or simulations of it. We're effective and rational to the extent those mental simulations are accurate. Philosophy, including political philosophy, is part of that. Though it isn't possible to not have a philosophy, what is possible is to have an unexamined, unthinking one, which is indeed (and unfortunately) what most people have. Ideas (which include premises and assumptions) do have consequences. Ideas that are unthinking and unexamined tend to be dysfunctional..I'm having trouble seeing the difference between this and what Mataj said. Everyone loves to hear they're special and God has great plans for them, that's a preprogrammed unexamined unthinking one. And that's exactly what Mataj's point taps into. Fabricating an enemy to complete the illusion is the final step.

Randy

[brainpan]

"Nazi Germany was based on humanism. A perfect example of it...I will though concede that my definition of a Humanist was in relation to Atheists, which is what I consider Nazism to partly adhere to."Nazi Germany was anything but a perfect example of humanism, even less so of atheism. Lets look again at what Hitler had to say about atheism: "We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."-Adolph Hitler
Did you notice the words in bold? I think sub zer0's quote below said it better than I did and was the jist of the basis of my comment.

"Well, since atheism belief structure requires humanism and naturalism which is evolution, coupled with strongest survive which is also evolution. I can see a connection." -sub zer0Lots of problems with this statement too. Atheism is not a belief structure, more to the point, there is no necessary connection between it and evolution. Finally, the notion of racial superiority is soundly REJECTED by evolutionary theory, but you can find lots of that in the history of Christianity, even among it's most cherished leaders.

In any case, Hitler gladly appealed directly to religious conviction to support his notion that the strong is justified in enforcing it's will.

"Always before God and the world, the stronger has the right to carry through what he wills."-Adolph Hitler

[steveksux]

. If I try to continue your thought a little bit: Our mentality depends on what we presume to be true until proven otherwise.I would change that to "What we presume to be true even after proven otherwise"...

Randy

[steveksux]

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/06/07/yale_grades_portray_kerry_as_a_lackluster_student? mode=PF

That's better than bragging about being a "D" student. LOL. :laughter: And look at that picture of Kerry.... freaking hilarious. He looks like Lurch.

Now consider that that was certainly the BEST picture he chose out of all that were taken.... :shock:

Randy

[steveksux]

I'm pretty sure Hitler believed that drinking milk builds strong bones and teeth. That is not sufficient basis for blaiming the Holocaust or the Nazi movement on milk drinking, milk drinkiners, or the dairy industry.

And that remains true regarding Hitlers embrace of Christian theology. Doubly so if as is likely, he didn't actually believe those things as much as used them because others believed in them already, making it a convenient way of manipulating people en masse.

Randy

[chukster8614]

"Nazi Germany was based on humanism. A perfect example of it...I will though concede that my definition of a Humanist was in relation to Atheists, which is what I consider Nazism to partly adhere to."

Did you notice the words in bold? I think sub zer0's quote below said it better than I did and was the jist of the basis of my comment.

"Well, since atheism belief structure requires humanism and naturalism which is evolution, coupled with strongest survive which is also evolution. I can see a connection." -sub zer0
Really? You think it's partly adherent to humanism and naturalism? I think there's an argument out there that could adhere it more to the notion of an intense love of Classical Greek society (i.e., Euripidean drama, doric, ionic & corinthian columns, Platonic cave philosophy, naked sculptures, etc.). Personally, I think that's what fuelled the Nazi dogma (not to mention a complete misreading of Nietchze and a moronic misunderstanding of Wagner's musical intentions).

Anyway, I can try and find the film title of the Nazi=Classical Greek conection, if you're interested.

And speaking of Germany, today's Germany, it's very nice to see them doing so well (with the World Cup and everything*). That country is one of the most positive, humane and caring places in the World today, but then, that's another thread entirely. :)

[brainpan]

I'm pretty sure Hitler believed that drinking milk builds strong bones and teeth. That is not sufficient basis for blaiming the Holocaust or the Nazi movement on milk drinking, milk drinkiners, or the dairy industry.The point of this exercise wasn't to blame Christianity for the Holocaust, only to demonstrate how bass ackwards it was to assign even partial blame to atheism for it.

That said, there is an undeniable connection between Hitler's hatred and historical Christianity, from which he borrowed in making his case against the Jews.
Doubly so if as is likely, he didn't actually believe those things as much as used them because others believed in them already...That theory has been argued by quite a few embarrassed Christians, but the case for Hitler being a true-believing Christian is overwhelming. I would argue this point with anyone.

[mataj]

I would change that to "What we presume to be true even after proven otherwise"...

RandyAwww, man, did you really had to shred the last remnant of my belief into people's common sense to pieces? ;)

[steveksux]

Awww, man, did you really had to shred the last remnant of my belief into people's common sense to pieces? ;)Sorry about that, you have to wake up pretty early in the morning to out-cynical me... :D

Randy

[steveksux]

The point of this exercise wasn't to blame Christianity for the Holocaust, only to demonstrate how bass ackwards it was to assign even partial blame to atheism for it.Sorry if you thought I was accusing YOU of that, I didn't get that impression at all. But I think others have gone down that path in the course of the thread.

That said, there is an undeniable connection between Hitler's hatred and historical Christianity, from which he borrowed in making his case against the Jews.Absolutely agree there...


That theory has been argued by quite a few embarrassed Christians, but the case for Hitler being a true-believing Christian is overwhelming. I would argue this point with anyone.The KKK and Aryan nations are true believing Christians if you accept the weird twisted view they hold is "Christianity" instead of an ugly caricature of Christianity. I haven't really studied that aspect of the Third Reich, so you may be right. I just haven't personally seen any evidence of Christianity being a big influence in his life in the sense of being a true believer rather than using it as a mechanism to manipulate. I've seen more about his preoccupation with occult stuff, actually, and some old pagan rituals to build the whole facade of the "Aryan People", master race stuff. Always on the lookout for useful symbolism and ritual, from all those sources, including Christianity. But all of it was simply used to put together the Nazi mythology, IMO.

Randy

[brainpan]

Sorry if you thought I was accusing YOU of that, I didn't get that impression at all. But I think others have gone down that path in the course of the thread.Oh. It would have been alright by me if you were. :)