Christian discussion young/old earth

[neo of the mind]

Quote:
Originally Posted by neo of the mind
That an interesting question. I could see it being valid that he could have been created as a child, teenager or full grown adult. I think that will be a question we will have to wait to find out. If I had to guess, I would say he was a grown man.

Originally Posted by heel31ok
If that is reasonable then why would it not also be reasonable to look at the creation of the earth the same way?
I just see the fall as the x factor skewing alot of so called data about the age of the earth. Which began as a fully formed earth.


I respectively ask that this thread only be discussed by people that believe the Bible is truth, but disagree or agree on it's interpretation.

heel31ok - first let me see if I understand your question correctly. You want to know if it was logical for God to create Adam fully grown, mature and I would suspect having the coresponding knowledge "inbuilt" that he was able to take care of himself, what would be wrong with the logic that God built the earth fully complete versus taking millions of years to form? Do I have that right?

[steveksux]

Catholics and Lutherans believe in old earth. I'm Lutheran by upbringing and Catholic by marriage.

Neo, You weren't trying to keep me out of this thread were you? ;)

Randy

[neo of the mind]

Catholics and Lutherans believe in old earth. I'm Lutheran by upbringing and Catholic by marriage.

Neo, You weren't trying to keep me out of this thread were you? ;)

Randy

I just don't want this discussion to turn into a "there is no God" and "the Bible is a fairy tale" free for all. People should be able to discuss the details of what's in the Bible without having to defend the basic premise that it is true. At least for a post every now and then, which I hope will start with this one.

[heel31ok]

Quote:
Originally Posted by neo of the mind
That an interesting question. I could see it being valid that he could have been created as a child, teenager or full grown adult. I think that will be a question we will have to wait to find out. If I had to guess, I would say he was a grown man.

Originally Posted by heel31ok
If that is reasonable then why would it not also be reasonable to look at the creation of the earth the same way?
I just see the fall as the x factor skewing alot of so called data about the age of the earth. Which began as a fully formed earth.


I respectively ask that this thread only be discussed by people that believe the Bible is truth, but disagree or agree on it's interpretation.

heel31ok - first let me see if I understand your question correctly. You want to know if it was logical for God to create Adam fully grown, mature and I would suspect having the coresponding knowledge "inbuilt" that he was able to take care of himself, what would be wrong with the logic that God built the earth fully complete versus taking millions of years to form? Do I have that right?
Yes I do believe that covers the question.

[heel31ok]

The theory would be if a mature Adam was created then a mature earth could also be the result of original creation. trees fully grown animals fully mature and what not.
I always pictured in my mind Adam maybe as a young adult maybe in what we would call early 20's.
I know you have a different take on the whole earth age thing so give me something to work with here.I understand the basicsbut why do we discount a built in aging as just suggested?

[neo of the mind]

Not certain of the scope of your suggestion in regards to just being created mature or if in speaking that the earth was created being aged.

I'll comment on living things being created mature. The only thing I can see against this 100% would be that food is not discussed in regards to sea life.

We have this for life on land (Which at least covers herbivores and omnivores):

Gen 1:29-30

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
KJV

But on the sea, we have nothing mentioned. This being the case, should we make the assumption that sea life ate other sea life? If so, then the sea life could not all be made in it's mature stages, because some sea life, I think, but don't know, gain most if not all of their subsistence from immature sea life.

[JoeR]

Are you (heel) suggesting that God would've made the earth to appear old? Isn't that a tad deceptive?

[heel31ok]

Not certain of the scope of your suggestion in regards to just being created mature or if in speaking that the earth was created being aged.

I'll comment on living things being created mature. The only thing I can see against this 100% would be that food is not discussed in regards to sea life.

We have this for life on land (Which at least covers herbivores and omnivores):

Gen 1:29-30

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
KJV

But on the sea, we have nothing mentioned. This being the case, should we make the assumption that sea life ate other sea life? If so, then the sea life could not all be made in it's mature stages, because some sea life, I think, but don't know, gain most if not all of their subsistence from immature sea life.

I have read where the suggestion was that sea life did in fact eat other sea life.I do not know nor have I ever really thought about it before. I would imagine that they could be created mature. I am not sure what creatures have to have early aged creatures for food. I would also have to consider the rate of reproduction as a factor for more food production.

As far as the earth it self if Adam was created mature why could the earth not be created mature also? what do you mean as far a scope?

[neo of the mind]

Scope, in that are you saying that God created all life fully mature only or is the discussion in regards to a created "aged" earth. At this point I think your limiting the conversation to the former and then once something is fairly established, we will discuss the later, which is fine by me.

I don't think there is an issue with all life created in it's mature form except for the exclusion of life that requires other life, as was stated, to be at earlier stages. We could also suppose that God created all life mature and provided for it, until the balance was naturally attained. That's another facet of the discussion, though I reject evolution, I don't discount that God would create a ecosystem on earth that needed time to prepare each stage versus everything "ready" at one once. That would delve into the question of why did God use 6 days to do it versus 6 seconds. I'll look around in the Bible to see if I can find anything.

[sub_zer0]

What is the gap theory to you neo?

[heel31ok]

What is the gap theory to you neo?
I do not know about neo , but to me it is offering basic clothing to a certain demographic at an inflated price and making them like it. :D

[heel31ok]

Scope, in that are you saying that God created all life fully mature only or is the discussion in regards to a created "aged" earth. At this point I think your limiting the conversation to the former and then once something is fairly established, we will discuss the later, which is fine by me.

I don't think there is an issue with all life created in it's mature form except for the exclusion of life that requires other life, as was stated, to be at earlier stages. We could also suppose that God created all life mature and provided for it, until the balance was naturally attained. That's another facet of the discussion, though I reject evolution, I don't discount that God would create a ecosystem on earth that needed time to prepare each stage versus everything "ready" at one once. That would delve into the question of why did God use 6 days to do it versus 6 seconds. I'll look around in the Bible to see if I can find anything.
as far as chronology and using of days we might consider that the day of rest was in mind from the beginning.The earth was created for man so the establishment of days and the following of that order of divison was part of that establishment as an example to man.

[Izdaari]

My position as a Christian on the whole evolution vs. creationism debate: Theistic evolution (aka evolutionary creationism), according to this definition:

Also known as "evolutionary creationism", this is the general view that, instead of faith being in opposition to biological evolution, some or all classical religious teachings about God and creation are compatible with some or all of modern scientific theories including specifically evolution. It views evolution as a tool used by God and can synthesize with gap or day-age creationism, although most adherents consider that Genesis should not be interpreted as history at all, rather having a spiritual meaning. It can still be described as "creationism" in holding that divine intervention brought about the origin of life or that divine Laws govern formation of species, but in the creation-evolution controversy its proponents generally take the "evolutionist" side. While supporting the methodological naturalism inherent in modern science "within the realm of science", they reject the implication taken by atheists that this gives credence to ontological materialism which they regard as infringing on "the realm of the spiritual". Many creationists would deny that this is creationism at all, and should rather be called "theistic evolution", while on the other hand many scientists support such faiths which allow a voice to their spiritual side.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution

On this issue I seem to be in full agreement with the Anglican and Catholic churches, although I'm not a member of either.

I don't know that I'm particularly interested in debating it, since I don't consider it very important to me as a Christian one way or the other -- Christ, and Him crucified, is in the end all that really matters -- but I did want to state it for the record.

[heel31ok]

My position as a Christian on the whole evolution vs. creationism debate: Theistic evolution (aka evolutionary creationism), according to this definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution

On this issue I seem to be in full agreement with the Anglican and Catholic churches, although I'm not a member of either.

I don't know that I'm particularly interested in debating it, since I don't consider it very important to me as a Christian one way or the other -- Christ, and Him crucified, is in the end all that really matters -- but I did want to state it for the record.
I think all can respect your position even if some do not agree. I do agree that in the end how creation began is not as important as how it ends up.
I agree it is Christ and Him crucified, but itseems that this issue is a stumbling block preventing many from getting to Christ or even a reason for some to discount it completely.
I am sure that many know there is more to the evolution/ creation debate than just origins of life.
Anyhoo thanks for your comments.

[neo of the mind]

as far as chronology and using of days we might consider that the day of rest was in mind from the beginning.The earth was created for man so the establishment of days and the following of that order of divison was part of that establishment as an example to man.

True, but he could have used seconds instead of days. But I would think that the fact that the people at that time did not have a way to measure time in seconds yet, then they woudn't have a word for it as well.

[sub_zer0]

True, but he could have used seconds instead of days. But I would think that the fact that the people at that time did not have a way to measure time in seconds yet, then they woudn't have a word for it as well.

The language used brings a person to one conclusion. Literal days of the creation week.

What is the gap theory to you neo?

[neo of the mind]

The language used brings a person to one conclusion. Literal days of the creation week.

What is the gap theory to you neo?

That gap theory as I understand it is this:

1.Some point in eternity's past, God created the universe including our earth.
2.Satan's rebellion resulted in that universe, including our earth to be changed from it's original state. The earth specifically going from a created and perfect state to a destroyed state.
3.There is a gap of unspecified time.
4. Some point in time, God creates and/or re-forms the existing universe, including the earth in six days.

The fossil record is from number 1 to number 2.

[sub_zer0]

That gap theory as I understand it is this:

1.Some point in eternity's past, God created the universe including our earth.
2.Satan's rebellion resulted in that universe, including our earth to be changed from it's original state. The earth specifically going from a created and perfect state to a destroyed state.
3.There is a gap of unspecified time.
4. Some point in time, God creates and/or re-forms the existing universe, including the earth in six days.

The fossil record is from number 1 to number 2.

I agree, except when God originally created the universe and everything it was number 4 and it wasn't re-formed. The fossil record mostly was produced during the flood. And that Satan's rebellion did cause that, but on the original creation as stated in Genesis.

Your scriptural proof of this gap of unspecified time?

[sub_zer0]

Scope, in that are you saying that God created all life fully mature only or is the discussion in regards to a created "aged" earth. At this point I think your limiting the conversation to the former and then once something is fairly established, we will discuss the later, which is fine by me.

I would like to add my belief for the apparent maturity of the earth and the kinds that were originally created. I hope to you, being a Christian like I, this will make the most sense, as it does to me.

Maturity, that was necessary for functionality. In this category is the fact that God did not create babies, but adult organisms, as would be needed to have a functioning world. However, you would not expect to see signs of wear or growth that are not needed for functionality.

HERE (http://www.creationwiki.net/index.php)