Omen, miracle, or just coincidence?

[Mirror Lake 444]

Medieval book of psalms unearthed

First millennium manuscript, open to Psalm 83, found in Irish mud

Tuesday, July 25, 2006; Posted: 6:28 p.m. EDT (22:28 GMT)

The ancient book was found by a construction worker, who was removing peat with a backhoe.
Image:

DUBLIN, Ireland (AP) -- Irish archaeologists Tuesday heralded the discovery of an ancient book of psalms by a construction worker while driving the shovel of his backhoe into a bog.

The approximately 20-page book has been dated to the years 800-1000. Trinity College manuscripts expert Bernard Meehan said it was the first discovery of an Irish early medieval document in two centuries.

"This is really a miracle find," said Pat Wallace, director of the National Museum of Ireland, which has the book stored in refrigeration. Researchers will conduct years of painstaking analysis before putting the book on public display.

"There's two sets of odds that make this discovery really way out," Wallace said. "First of all, it's unlikely that something this fragile could survive buried in a bog at all, and then for it to be unearthed and spotted before it was destroyed is incalculably more amazing."

He said an engineer was digging up bogland last week to create commercial potting soil somewhere in Ireland's midlands when "just beyond the bucket of his bulldozer, he spotted something." Wallace would not specify where the book was found because a team of archaeologists is still exploring the site.

"The owner of the bog has had dealings with us in past and is very much in favor of archaeological discovery and reporting it," Wallace said.

Crucially, he said, the bog owner covered up the book with damp soil. Had it been left exposed overnight, he said, "it could have dried out and just vanished, blown away."

The book was found open to a page describing, in Latin script, Psalm 83, in which God hears complaints of other nations' attempts to wipe out the name of Israel.

Snip...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/25/ireland.psalms.ap/index.html

[Mirror Lake 444]

1Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.

2For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.

3They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.

4They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

Snip...

[steveksux]

Irish archaeologists Tuesday heralded the discovery of an ancient book of psalms by a construction worker Of course its a miracle. I've never heard of a book of psalms by a construction worker. Construction workers just don't write psalms as a general rule.

Randy

[Mirror Lake 444]

Of course its a miracle. I've never heard of a book of psalms by a construction worker. Construction workers just don't write psalms as a general rule.

Randy

Your cleverness never ceases to amaze me Randy! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[tFighterPilot]

Ireland worker finds ancient psalms in bog


The book of psalms was found when construction worker drove a shovel of his backhoe into a bog
Associated Press

Irish archaeologists Tuesday heralded the discovery of an ancient book of psalms by a construction worker who spotted something while driving the shovel of his backhoe into a bog.

The approximately 20-page book has been dated to the years 800-1000. Trinity College manuscripts expert Bernard Meehan said it was the first discovery of an Irish early medieval document in two centuries.

"This is really a miracle find," said Pat Wallace, director of the National Museum of Ireland, which has the book stored in refrigeration and facing years of painstaking analysis before being put on public display.

"There's two sets of odds that make this discovery really way out. First of all, it's unlikely that something this fragile could survive buried in a bog at all, and then for it to be unearthed and spotted before it was destroyed is incalculably more amazing."

He said an engineer was digging up bog-land last week to create commercial potting soil somewhere in Ireland's midlands when, "just beyond the bucket of his bulldozer, he spotted something." Wallace would not specify where the book was found because a team of archaeologists is still exploring the site.

"The owner of the bog has had dealings with us in past and is very much in favor of archaeological discovery and reporting it," Wallace said.

Crucially, he said, the bog owner covered up the book with damp soil. Had it been left exposed overnight, he said, "It could have dried out and just vanished, blown away."

Mizmor Le'Asaf

The book was found open to a page describing, in Latin script, Psalm 83, in which God hears complaints of other nations' attempts to wipe out the name of Israel.

Wallace said several experts spent Tuesday analyzing only that page — the number of letters on each line, lines on each page, size of page — and the book's binding and cover, which he described as "leather velum, very thick wallet in appearance."

It could take months of study, he said, just to identify the safest way to pry open the pages without damaging or destroying them. He ruled out the use of X-rays to investigate without moving the pages.

Ireland already has several other holy books from the early medieval period, including the ornately illustrated Book of Kells, which has been on display at Trinity College in Dublin since the 19th century.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3281564,00.html

This is what is written in Psalm 83

For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head. They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes; Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre; Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.

Do unto them as unto the Midianites; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison: Which perished at Endor: they became as dung for the earth. Make their nobles like Oreb, and like Zeeb: yea, all their princes as Zebah, and as Zalmunna: Who said, Let us take to ourselves the houses of God in possession. O my God, make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the wind. As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire; So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm. Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD. Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish: That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth

[tFighterPilot]

Sorry, didn't see the thread.

[tFighterPilot]

Anyway, I tend to believe that this is really a message from god. I was born and raised an atheist, and consider myself an atheist who doubts the non existence of god. I've seen too many coincidences in my life to say with certainty that god doesn't exist. This occurrence probably tops them all.

[USA-1]

How could paper last 1000 years in moist peat? My compost pile decomposes in a few months. Is this on the level?

[mataj]

Big goosebery season ... :shrug:

Moreover, it's about ME, it's on CNN, therefore it's probably one big, fat stercus tauri.

[Lumpen Prole]

How could paper last 1000 years in moist peat? My compost pile decomposes in a few months. Is this on the level?

Peat bogs are known for preserving things very well. They're so acidic that most bacteria can't live there.

[USA-1]

Peat bogs are known for preserving things very well. They're so acidic that most bacteria can't live there.
OK........

[tFighterPilot]

Considering that this is the Religion & Philosophy forum, the replies so far have been very disappointing.

[Alvin T. Grey]

Peat bogs are known for preserving things very well. They're so acidic that most bacteria can't live there.
It's mostly because it's totally anerobic. Sphagnum moss (which is what makes up peat bogs) also contain tannins that act as preservatives too.
Information curtsey of the cutest Phd. in Archeology. specializing in Bronze/Iorn age Ireland.

My GF. ;)

[Alvin T. Grey]

Considering that this is the Religion & Philosophy forum, the replies so far have been very disappointing.
Not really. It has as much chance of opening on that passage as any other. What was a miracle was the fact it was found. Most peat cutting is done by absolutely humongus machines. The amount of finds that end up chopped to pieces, and bagged only to be unearthed halfway around the world is enormous.

[tFighterPilot]

Not really. It has as much chance of opening on that passage as any other.
Exactly, and the fact that it was opened in this one which is very relevant to these days rather than any other is astonishing.

[::Major_Baker::]

Exactly, and the fact that it was opened in this one which is very relevant to these days rather than any other is astonishing.
Or mere coincidence.

[Michele]

Medieval book of psalms unearthed

First millennium manuscript, open to Psalm 83, found in Irish mud

Tuesday, July 25, 2006; Posted: 6:28 p.m. EDT (22:28 GMT)

The ancient book was found by a construction worker, who was removing peat with a backhoe.
Image:

DUBLIN, Ireland (AP) -- Irish archaeologists Tuesday heralded the discovery of an ancient book of psalms by a construction worker while driving the shovel of his backhoe into a bog.

The approximately 20-page book has been dated to the years 800-1000. Trinity College manuscripts expert Bernard Meehan said it was the first discovery of an Irish early medieval document in two centuries.

"This is really a miracle find," said Pat Wallace, director of the National Museum of Ireland, which has the book stored in refrigeration. Researchers will conduct years of painstaking analysis before putting the book on public display.

"There's two sets of odds that make this discovery really way out," Wallace said. "First of all, it's unlikely that something this fragile could survive buried in a bog at all, and then for it to be unearthed and spotted before it was destroyed is incalculably more amazing."

He said an engineer was digging up bogland last week to create commercial potting soil somewhere in Ireland's midlands when "just beyond the bucket of his bulldozer, he spotted something." Wallace would not specify where the book was found because a team of archaeologists is still exploring the site.

"The owner of the bog has had dealings with us in past and is very much in favor of archaeological discovery and reporting it," Wallace said.

Crucially, he said, the bog owner covered up the book with damp soil. Had it been left exposed overnight, he said, "it could have dried out and just vanished, blown away."

The book was found open to a page describing, in Latin script, Psalm 83, in which God hears complaints of other nations' attempts to wipe out the name of Israel.

Snip...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/25/ireland.psalms.ap/index.html


right now there is all this armeggedon fever going on. I find it interesting and perhaps would take it more seriously if I wasn't aware that this same fever emerged during the 6-day war.

I find this enthusiastic greeting for END TIMES by certain christian groups (particularly the Rapturists) somewhat morbid, If not a fascination with death and destruction as somehow those that believe seem to feel the earth will be cleansed and they will be saved.

It goes hand in hand with its political cousin --- which has been telling us that this phase of perpetual war will result in EVERLASTING PEACE contrary to the utter failure of all previous unilateral actions wherein even as these same tactics are engaged, it is being said that a military solution will not solve this problem. It is extraordinarily bi-polar.

Seems to me that this in a way is the Christian version of death cultism wherein the destruction of war in the holyland (in which revelations speaks of a number of waves of them) beckons this ascencion (or salvation). How is this "amen corner" who cheers on the end of the world due to the salvation of christian "believers" any less insane than Islamic milleniumists who crave the same by way of the acestral virgins?

both hinge upon total destruction, death, the lake of fire for the non-believes or those who remain unwilling to convert --- and both look toward some kind of heavenly utopia which can not be achieved without a total destruction befalling the earth?

as for whether this is a sign from GOD. It seems to me it could have been staged. Then again I haven't really paid much attention to this, nor have I read through the thread... so I don't know what science has been utilized to authentic the book that was found.

Based on this ---- so called sacred madness --- well --- doesn't this very belief merely not only faciliate more war rather than abetting it, but more precisely encourage warmongering rather than peacekeeping, forget about peacemaking.

Into this madness why the hell would Christ return. I always thought he was a peacemaker. It is irrational and illogical. I find it difficult to indulge a believe of god behind this sickness.

[neo of the mind]

tFighterPilot -


I agree with you and I don't think it is a "coincidence" that this psalm was the one that the book was open to "aged" on so to speak.

As you have seen already, this board is mainly made up of atheists or others that will always give responses of mocking or divert the subject towards something else regarding Christianity that they can attempt to bash.

[tFighterPilot]

In my opinion to be atheist and to be sure god doesn't exist isn't better than being religious and to be sure that god does exist.

[Dangerrmouse]

That old, it wouldn't be paper, but parchment, which preserves better anyway. (I learned that off Time Team!)

[mataj]

In my opinion to be atheist and to be sure god doesn't exist isn't better than being religious and to be sure that god does exist.The question whether god(s) exists should not be any more relevant then the question of Loch Ness monster existance, aliens existance, flying pig existance, and so on, and so on, and so on.

If it is, it's purely political.

[Dangerrmouse]

I agree. The God question is at about the same level as the Werewolf question....The Night Hag, on the other hand...

[Lumpen Prole]

It's mostly because it's totally anerobic. Sphagnum moss (which is what makes up peat bogs) also contain tannins that act as preservatives too.
Information curtsey of the cutest Phd. in Archeology. specializing in Bronze/Iorn age Ireland.

My GF. ;)

To be fair, there's plenty of anaerobic bacteria out there. :cool:

[Alvin T. Grey]

To be fair, there's plenty of anaerobic bacteria out there. :cool: Not ones that digest organic material. That can live in a slightly acidic environment, and can digest what in effect leather.
That's why the bogs form in the first place. The plant material holds a smack load of water, and does not rot.

Take a look at what being submerged in a bog does to organic material
http://www.museum.ie/exhibitionsandcollections/details.asp?id=169&subsection=collections&site_id=2

[Lumpen Prole]

Acidic peat is dead organic material. Other than that, it's difficult for plant life to live because of the acidic soil (which is also low in nutrients). But like I said, the lack of bacteria is do primarily to the acidity of the soil (as far as I know). But yeah, peat bogs are the ideal place for organic preservation.

[Michele]

In my opinion to be atheist and to be sure god doesn't exist isn't better than being religious and to be sure that god does exist.


I am not an atheist. I just feel one can believe in god without being dogmatically bound by chapter and verse or prayer for the death and destruction which is said to proceed enlightenment and salvation.


the revelation itself worships destruction rather than a free will that would dare to question it in away to attempt NOT TO HAVE THE PROPHECY FORFILLED.

Instead it seems the prophecy compells us toward humanities demise on this off chance that a messiah will arrive along with the second coming of christ to a world so blinded by the language of war.... I am not sure either if they were to show up would even be recognized. In this climate I have always joked that the rapteurists themselves would kill christ yet again for their inability to see beyond the total destruction they crave.

[steveksux]

I think they've also found people pretty well preserved in peat bogs, haven't they? Seems I remember hearing about peat bog "mummies".

Randy

[Lumpen Prole]

Yep. :)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/chinamum/images/bog.jpeg

[Michele]

why can't enlightenment and salvation arise without the destruction of Israel or the temple going up only to be once again knocked down? why?

see this attempt to put the pieces together just as revelations has foreshadowed it... helps us move to look at this finding in a way where we wish to believe it is authentic and even if it is why can't this just be a coincidence? why cleave to it? even as so many will cleave to two wrongs making a right or military solutions that have already proven a failure... as peace evades us.... what different reaction is expected if yet another prophet arrives seeing as so many before them in their aspiration for peace... they have been killed.

what does the authenticity of this book turned to this psalm accomplish? How does it help? when embracing it suggests total destruction is most imminent... seems to me every human being has to grapple with their own mortality with or without end times.

[neo of the mind]

I am not an atheist. I just feel one can believe in god without being dogmatically bound by chapter and verse or prayer for the death and destruction which is said to proceed enlightenment and salvation.


the revelation itself worships destruction rather than a free will that would dare to question it in away to attempt NOT TO HAVE THE PROPHECY FORFILLED.

Instead it seems the prophecy compells us toward humanities demise on this off chance that a messiah will arrive along with the second coming of christ to a world so blinded by the language of war.... I am not sure either if they were to show up would even be recognized. In this climate I have always joked that the rapteurists themselves would kill christ yet again for their inability to see beyond the total destruction they crave.


There will be tribulation on earth before Christ returns, that's a biblical fact, it's not a matter of Christians wishing it or in some way making it occur.

[Michele]

There will be tribulation on earth before Christ returns, that's a biblical fact, it's not a matter of Christians wishing it or in some way making it occur.


The fact is that there has been t ribulation on earth before and since his cruxificion. I find it completely assinine to beakon on end times revelation which apparently feeds even our geopolitics in the region in question and our policies that merely feed perpetual destruction.... and quite frankly I am not sure jewish prophecy recognizes the return of christ....as their coo coo fundamentalists (the red heifer crowd) await the first coming of a messiah. so where does this fact reside? in the new testament?

don't you see that even the varying beliefs of a coming of a prophet only serve to feed the same old divisiveness that only justifies engaging in more destruction, as it feeds on and perpetuate intolerance.

oh we have to kill and kill and kill to bring on a godly being wherein we will be enlightened.... look civilization and the tribulations already passed... we have killed and killed...seems to me it is time to look within each other not out in space in the hopes of yet another prophet OR THREE who don't jive with each other based on which abrahamic fundamentalist interprets prophecy for which religion. It is madness.

See here is where the so called words of God only forments more dissension and divisiveness between humanity.... for what this death wish of religious fundamentalist have found is a way to justify destruction and perpetual war in Godly terms....

You will have to forgive me if I remain irreverent.

[USA-1]

There will be tribulation on earth before Christ returns, that's a biblical fact, it's not a matter of Christians wishing it or in some way making it occur.
Biblical fact? Can you prove it's a fact?

[neo of the mind]

Biblical fact? Can you prove it's a fact?

It's a fact that it is in the Bible is what I am saying. I can't prove prophesy that has not occured yet, other than by pointing to Biblical phrophesy that has occured as evidence to it's accuracy.

[USA-1]

It's a fact that it is in the Bible is what I am saying. I can't prove prophesy that has not occured yet, other than by pointing to Biblical phrophesy that has occured as evidence to it's accuracy.
Yes, it is a fact that it is in the bible but it is not a fact.

[neo of the mind]

Michele,

I have never met a Christian as you describe that awaits the great tribulation of the Bible with glee. There have been wars throughout history and there have been "tribulations" generally throughout history but, there has not been a period of time in the world that will compare to what will occur at some point.

Matt 24:21

21 For then shall be great tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

[Michele]

It's a fact that it is in the Bible is what I am saying. I can't prove prophesy that has not occured yet, other than by pointing to Biblical phrophesy that has occured as evidence to it's accuracy.


where is this fact? that that refers to the return NOT OF A MESSIAH or MOHAMMED, but CHRIST SPECIFICALLY? in the new testament? in revelations? because you know there isn't just one book between the three Abrahamic religions... and the old testament one can argue was written by a people who were cast out merely providing their own midrash in a way to lift the spirits of a suffering people with promises of a victory over those not named chosen.

what I am saying is all the various interpretations between the Abrahamic religions don't necessarily jive in a way that actually has much of anything to do with humanities enlightenment.... and just because a mention of christs return is in one holy book doesn't mean it is a fact, let alone an absolute truth....

as Islamic believers are separate from Judaic believers separate from Christian believers... with the latter mentioned group believing that once the temple goes up and then goes down the only ones who are saved are those that utlimately conform with the christian beliefs....

In that regard for the rapteurists, the Israelites are merely fighting proxy, and that proxy war according to the coo coo christian fundamentalists, doesn't guarantee them dominion over the holyland which unless you hadn't noticed that is what the modern day Israelites are fighting for.. dominion over Jeruselem.

the books are screwed up in this regard.... they are merely a mirror of the same divisiveness that only begets more divisiveness.

[neo of the mind]

Yes, it is a fact that it is in the bible but it is not a fact.

I phophesy that you will die in the future. Is that not a fact now or does it only become a fact when it occurs? Depends on your perspective.

[neo of the mind]

where is this fact? that that refers to the return NOT OF A MESSIAH or MOHAMMED, but CHRIST SPECIFICALLY? in the new testament? in revelations? because you know there isn't just one book between the three Abrahamic religions... and the old testament one can argue was written by a people who were cast out merely providing their own midrash in a way to lift the spirits of a suffering people with promises of a victory over those not named chosen.

what I am saying is all the various interpretations don't necessary jive in a way that actually has much of anything to do with humanities enlightenment.... and just because is in one holy book doesn't mean it is an absolute truth.... as Islamic believes are separate from Judaic believers separate from Christian believers... who believe that once the temple goes up and then goes down the only ones we are saved are those that utlimately conform with the christian beliefs.... In that regard for the rapteurists the Israelites are merely fighting proxy, and that proxy war according to the coo coo christian fundamentalists, doesn't guarantee them dominion over the holyland.

the books are screwed up in this regard.... they are merely a mirror of the same divisiveness that only begets more divisiveness.

Whatever you say. I believe in absolute truth so I woudn't bother trying to convice me otherwise.

[Michele]

Michele,

I have never met a Christian as you describe that awaits the great tribulation of the Bible with glee. There have been wars throughout history and there have been "tribulations" generally throughout history but, there has not been a period of time in the world that will compare to what will occur at some point.

Matt 24:21

21 For then shall be great tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

well just because you have never met one doesn't mean they don't exist.... and perhaps glee is the wrong word.... however the glee is the expectation for the enlightment and the needed salvation for the ascencion.... wherein they will acquire EVERLASTING LIFE IN HEAVEN.... and that prospect does bring on a certain revere....

you still haven't answered where in the bible (and in which bible) does that fact about the return of christ reside? see can't you see... just that one group of fundamentalists are waiting for christ while other group are waiting for a messiah who is not Christ.... almost is the antithesis to the anticipated enlightenment.

and those that anticipate this divine ascension how is this not just another form of death worship.... particularly as the anticipation creates a kind of cheering on for one proxy army wrecking destruction just for another proxy army to rear up to just wreck more destruction? for the temple is to go up and then it is to go down.... I can't even tell you how utterly psychotic this belief and solely from the perspective of only one of the Abrahamic religions perspective, strikes me. The rapteurists literally saying those saved and enlighted will ascend to everlasting life as CHRISTIANS. HAHAHAHAHAH. sorry it is nuts.

This is a death wish.... and I am not convinced the books in terms of facts aren't anymore distorted than our history books wherein ultimate truth is distorted from one perspective to the other.

[Michele]

Whatever you say. I believe in absolute truth so I woudn't bother trying to convice me otherwise.



no it doesn't sound like you do.... for you can't prove that the scriptures you are following are absolute....

but I presume I can suppose by your answer that you don't know exactly where in the book is this "fact" about the return of christ. and how is that reconciled with the coming of the Messiah? or are they both going to do battle before anyone ascends into heaven eternally.

and just for the record I am not trying to convince you of anything, I know better than to believe that "believers" can be convinced of anything beyond those so called facts in whichever book they are following.

[neo of the mind]

you still haven't answered where in the bible (and in which bible) does that fact about the return of christ reside?

This is pretty fundamental knowledge to those that read the Bible. I, of course do not have time to give you all the examples but I will give you a few.
I apologize to the original poster as this has become off topic.

Luke 12:40 (Parable - read context, but he is saying that he will return.)

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
KJV

Acts 1:11

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
KJV

John 14:3

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again , and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV

[Michele]

you still haven't answered where in the bible (and in which bible) does that fact about the return of christ reside?

This is pretty fundamental knowledge to those that read the Bible. I, of course do not have time to give you all the examples but I will give you a few.
I apologize to the original poster as this has become off topic.

Luke 12:40 (Parable - read context, but he is saying that he will return.)

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
KJV

Acts 1:11

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
KJV

John 14:3

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again , and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV

and these chapters are all in the new testament? correct? so how does this reconcile with the Judaic belief in coming Messiah? or do christians care much about that?

and again just because they are in the new testament doesn't make them facts.

I really don't get HOW one group of believers can totally nullify and/or ignore the beliefs of another group of believers that in and of itself GUARANTEES divisiveness and how is this divisiveness GODLY?

and this is the very reason I have tolerance for them all without cleaving to any of them literally.

[neo of the mind]

no it doesn't sound like you do.... for you can't prove that the scriptures you are following are absolute....

but I presume I can suppose by your answer that you don't know exactly where in the book is this "fact" about the return of christ. and how is that reconciled with the coming of the Messiah? or are they both going to do battle before anyone ascends into heaven eternally.

and just for the record I am not trying to convince you of anything, I know better than to believe that "believers" can be convinced of anything beyond those so called facts in whichever book they are following.


I love people that require "proof" for everything. There can be no "proof" that will satisfy you of anything that you don't want to believe can be true.

[neo of the mind]

and these chapters are all in the new testament? correct? so how does this reconcile with the coming Messiah? or do christians care much about that?


uhhh, Christ is the Messiah, that's what Christians believe, so I think you are confused about something.

[Michele]

uhhh, Christ is the Messiah, that's what Christians believe, so I think you are confused about something.


ah yes but the ends (depending on which christian identity one considers) are different...in terms of who the promised land is promised to, let alone a place everlasting in heaven after we self destruct ALL IN THE NAME OF GOD.

for isn't this enlightenment reserved for those that believe in CHRIST and I am not sure from the Judaic interpretation that the messiah referred to in the old testament is the one and the same christ in the new testament.... afterall... I am not even sure all religious hebrews BELIEVE in the christ story in the same way christians do, as their book doesn't include the NEW TESTAMENT.

and yes I will grant you I am not versed in depth in any of the books, or the torah or the koran... but it seems to me the three Abrahamic religions in terms of interpretation of biblical times are at odds....

I am not sure where ecumenity resides.

[neo of the mind]

ah yes but the ends (depending on which christian identity one considers) are different...in terms of who the promised land is promised to, let alone a place everlasting in heaven after we self destruct ALL IN THE NAME OF GOD.

for isn't this enlightenment reserved for those that believe in CHRIST and I am not sure from the Judaic interpretation that the messiah referred to in the old testament is the one and the same christ in the new testament.... afterall... I am not even sure all religious hebrews BELIEVE in the christ story in the same way christians do, as their book doesn't include the NEW TESTAMENT.

and yes I will grant you I am not versed in depth in any of the books, or the torah or the koran... but it seems to me the three Abrahamic religions in terms of interpretation of biblical times are at odds....

I am not sure where ecumenity resides.


I think your reason of the "apocalypse" is skewed. If ones comes from the belief that God is holy and perfectly just, then what will occur is righteous, regardless of whether the ones that are negatively impacted like it. If one does not see God as holy and perfectly just, then anything negative that befalls on mankind is looked at as being God's fault.

The Jews that did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah WANTED a king that would react to them and the world then on their terms and on their timeframe. They had wrong expectations, due not to fully understanding the scriptures. There were of course, plenty of Jews that did believe in who he was and spread Christianity.

There were scriptures that detailed Christ's first coming, which he showed them and there were scriptures that speak of his second coming as well.

Isaiah 11:1-11 (First and second advents)
Zechariah 14:3-5 (Second advent)
Jude 14 (Second Advent)

I am sure there are others but I am not a Biblical scholar.

[Michele]

I think your reason of the "apocalypse" is skewed. If ones comes from the belief that God is holy and perfectly just, then what will occur is righteous, regardless of whether the ones that are negatively impacted like it. If one does not see God as holy and perfectly just, then anything negative that befalls on mankind is looked at as being God's fault.


wow this is a mouthful.... and whether you realize it or not basically reinforces my belief that the books are part of the problem for isn't that convenient that any destruction wraught is due to workings of just God... regardless of who is accountable for what....

sorry which ever way you look at I am pretty clear that the destruction or recreation hasn't much to do with god.


The Jews that did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah WANTED a king that would react to them and the world then on their terms and on their timeframe. They had wrong expectations, due not to fully understanding the scriptures. There were of course, plenty of Jews that did believe in who he was and spread Christianity.

There were scriptures that detailed Christ's first coming, which he showed them and there were scriptures that speak of his second coming as well.

Isaiah 11:1-11 (First and second advents)
Zechariah 14:3-5 (Second advent)
Jude 14 (Second Advent)

I am sure there are others but I am not a Biblical scholar.

ah so according to your persepctive then, the Jewish theologians that are correct are looking toward a second coming as well, rather than a first coming of a messiah? why don't I think that is correct, but more the interpretation of someone who parses through the book from a christian perspective? Of course I could be wrong .... what we need now is for a rabbi to address my questions.... then perhaps I will find there is a reconcilation between Christ and the messiah.

because you throw me there with the part about what makes the Jews wrong.... it is somewhere right here where theology can be part of the problem. Is there a version of the Temple on the Mount in the Torah? I am not sure there is but I would be interested to know for sure if rabbinical scholars are waiting for a first coming or a second coming.

not the temple on the mount --- Jesus's sermon on the mount... is there an analogous story within the torah?

[USA-1]

I love people that require "proof" for everything. There can be no "proof" that will satisfy you of anything that you don't want to believe can be true.
And then there are those that require no proof and just believe everything put in front of them. Much like those that believed they would get 70 virgins.

[neo of the mind]

And then there are those that require no proof and just believe everything put in front of them. Much like those that believed they would get 70 virgins.

Thus it shows the ridiculousness of the mind that thinks it can have proof for everything and the mind that needs no proof. You are trying to argue that the extremes are one, vaild and two, a reality, when they are not. Problem is, I have never met anyone of any faith that did not have what they personally considered to be proof for their belief system. To think there are people that believe anything without proof is absurd just as much as people that think they require proof for the minutest details of life, history and reality. I don't think people operate like that.

[neo of the mind]

wow this is a mouthful.... and whether you realize it or not basically reinforces my belief that the books are part of the problem for isn't that convenient that any destruction wraught is due to workings of just God... regardless of who is accountable for what....

sorry which ever way you look at I am pretty clear that the destruction or recreation hasn't much to do with god.



ah so according to your persepctive then, the Jewish theologians that are correct are looking toward a second coming as well, rather than a first coming of a messiah? why don't I think that is correct, but more the interpretation of someone who parses through the book from a christian perspective? Of course I could be wrong .... what we need now is for a rabbi to address my questions.... then perhaps I will find there is a reconcilation between Christ and the messiah.

because you throw me there with the part about what makes the Jews wrong.... it is somewhere right here where theology can be part of the problem. Is there a version of the Temple on the Mount in the Torah? I am not sure there is but I would be interested to know for sure if rabbinical scholars are waiting for a first coming or a second coming.

not the temple on the mount --- Jesus's sermon on the mount... is there an analogous story within the torah?

Nope, didn't say that. Some Jews at that time did not accept Jesus as the Messiah. Some Jews at that time did, hence the spread and strength of Christianity. Some Jews of today as then are still waiting for the first appearance of a Messiah. Problem is, the Antichrist will appear, according to scripture, prior to Jesus's second coming. So those awaiting the first appearance will probably be deceived into thinking that the Antichrist is the Messiah. The Antichrist will, no doubt, reveal to them as being a messiah according to what THEY think he should be, versus what God declared would be the way things would be in the scripture. Again, the Jews that did not believe Jesus was the Messiah WERE LOOKING for a Messiah that would save them from ROME. That of course was not Jesus's purpose and thus they rejected God's plan. When Jesus returns the second time, he WILL return as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Every knee will bow and the foolishness will stop.

[neo of the mind]

the books are part of the problem for isn't that convenient that any destruction wraught is due to workings of just God... regardless of who is accountable for what....

sorry which ever way you look at I am pretty clear that the destruction or recreation hasn't much to do with god.



Whoa! Sorry there, didn't mean for you to think I was inferring in any way that everything negative that occurs is due directly to God. That is definetly not the case. In fact, MOST of all negative things that happen on this planet are a direct result of human will, not God's. God however will use any and all actions that occur due to human free will to further his plan, not man's. What I said, was that people that think God is not holy and perfectly just, perceive all negative consequences as the result of God's actions versus it being the result of their own personal actions. The people that think God is holy and just accept that negative consequences that occur, not from their actions, are just that, just and there are reasons for them to occur. They may not know the reasons or understand the reasons but they don't curse God. There are plenty of scriptures that discuss why evil occurs to "good" people and why it seems some times that evil people are blessed. Read up on it. The rain falls on the evil and the just.

[USA-1]

Thus it shows the ridiculousness of the mind that thinks it can have proof for everything and the mind that needs no proof. You are trying to argue that the extremes are one, vaild and two, a reality, when they are not. Problem is, I have never met anyone of any faith that did not have what they personally considered to be proof for their belief system. To think there are people that believe anything without proof is absurd just as much as people that think they require proof for the minutest details of life, history and reality. I don't think people operate like that.
So what is your proof?

[neo of the mind]

So what is your proof?

as I said:

"There can be no "proof" that will satisfy you of anything that you don't want to believe can be true."

I don't want to waste my time.

[FlyingGuineapig]

There's been an update to this story:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060728/od_nm/ireland_psalms_dc_2

Apparently, the text which is legible doesn't refer to wiping out Israel.

The National Museum of Ireland announced Tuesday what it said was one of the most significant Irish discoveries in decades; an ancient Psalter or Book of Psalms, written around 800 AD. It said part of Psalm 83 was legible.

In modern versions of the Bible, Psalm 83 is a lament to God over other nations' attempts to wipe out Israel and many commentators wondered at the coincidence of such a discovery at a time of heightened tension in the Middle East.

"The above mention of Psalm 83 has led to misconceptions about the revealed wording and may be a source of concern for people who believe Psalm 83 deals with 'the wiping out of Israel'," the museum said in its clarification.

The confusion arose because the manuscript uses an old Latin translation of the Bible known at the Vulgate, which numbers the psalms differently from the later King James version, the 1611 English translation from which many modern texts derive.

"The Director of the National Museum of Ireland ... would like to highlight that the text visible on the manuscript does not refer to wiping out Israel but to the 'vale of tears'," the museum said.

The vale of tears is in Psalm 84 in the King James version.


Still, a cool archeological find.

[Mirror Lake 444]

Peat bogs are known for preserving things very well. They're so acidic that most bacteria can't live there.

True, even human remains have been found preservered in bogs that are I believe several hunderd years old.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Bog bodies, also known as bog people, are preserved human bodies found in sphagnum bogs in Northern Europe, Britain and Ireland. Unlike most ancient human remains, bog bodies have retained skin and internal organs due to the unusual conditions of preservation. Under certain conditions, the acidity of the water, the cold temperature and the lack of oxygen combine to tan the body's skin: skeletal preservation is very rare in these bodies, as the acid in the peat dissolves the calcium carbonate of bone. The bodies provide very useful research material for archaeologists.

[Mirror Lake 444]

Considering that this is the Religion & Philosophy forum, the replies so far have been very disappointing.

As am I. I should have put it into the Middle East or Current Events category as once one posts here it looses all credibility. :D

[Mirror Lake 444]

Or mere coincidence.
Maybe but the odds have got to be astronomically low that it was opened to that page don't you think?

[Mirror Lake 444]

why can't enlightenment and salvation arise without the destruction of Israel or the temple going up only to be once again knocked down? why?

see this attempt to put the pieces together just as revelations has foreshadowed it... helps us move to look at this finding in a way where we wish to believe it is authentic and even if it is why can't this just be a coincidence? why cleave to it? even as so many will cleave to two wrongs making a right or military solutions that have already proven a failure... as peace evades us.... what different reaction is expected if yet another prophet arrives seeing as so many before them in their aspiration for peace... they have been killed.

what does the authenticity of this book turned to this psalm accomplish? How does it help? when embracing it suggests total destruction is most imminent... seems to me every human being has to grapple with their own mortality with or without end times.

It think you are going places I never even thought of when I posted this. I too am offended by those that seem to actually take glee in the destruction of the earth etc. and claim it is the christian thing to look forward to it. I've seen more than one person that feels his live is about over and wants this to happen. (We have one of those people on this site now and I don't think I have to mention who it is.)

I was mearly posting it, as the odds of finding this were not only astronomically low so was the fact on what page it was turned to. It does make the hair stand on the back of my neck.

If God had sent us signs before (and I believe he has according to the bible) why can't he be sending us one now? And who said Israel was going to be destroy anyway? The church I belong to believes the book of Revelation actually refers to the Roman Empire and has already happened.

[neo of the mind]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_of_tears
http://www.gracegems.org/Philpot/valley_of_baca.htm

[neo of the mind]

[QUOTE=actually refers to the Roman Empire and has already happened.[/QUOTE]

Are your speaking of in part or whole? Because the book of revelations has section that go back before Rome and some sections that go back before Adam. It also has sections that detail events that could not have happened yet, since it describes the great tribulation and the book of life being opened and the final judgement being made.

[Alvin T. Grey]

True, even human remains have been found preservered in bogs that are I believe several hunderd years old.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Bog bodies, also known as bog people, are preserved human bodies found in sphagnum bogs in Northern Europe, Britain and Ireland. Unlike most ancient human remains, bog bodies have retained skin and internal organs due to the unusual conditions of preservation. Under certain conditions, the acidity of the water, the cold temperature and the lack of oxygen combine to tan the body's skin: skeletal preservation is very rare in these bodies, as the acid in the peat dissolves the calcium carbonate of bone. The bodies provide very useful research material for archaeologists.
Some are hundres of years old. Some are thousands of years old. The 'interesting' ones are thousands of years old. Lets just say, they were apparently not too terribly popular with the natives. Judging by the fact that they weren't just dead. They were extreemly dead when they were put in the bogs......

[AgentM]

Some are hundres of years old. Some are thousands of years old. The 'interesting' ones are thousands of years old. Lets just say, they were apparently not too terribly popular with the natives. Judging by the fact that they weren't just dead. They were extreemly dead when they were put in the bogs......

Yes, I remember reading an article about "bog bodies" being found in northern Germany and such. Murder victims, people born with birth defects (if you had a birth defect that made you a drain on others back in those days, I wouldnt bet on you surviving very long) etc turning up in these bogs. Very interesting if somewhat morbid.

Have any of these popped up in Ireland?

[Mirror Lake 444]

Yes, I remember reading an article about "bog bodies" being found in northern Germany and such. Murder victims, people born with birth defects (if you had a birth defect that made you a drain on others back in those days, I wouldnt bet on you surviving very long) etc turning up in these bogs. Very interesting if somewhat morbid.

Have any of these popped up in Ireland?

Popped up? Are you sure you want to use those words? :eek: :eek: :eek:

[AgentM]

Popped up? Are you sure you want to use those words? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Hehe, a little too overly literal for you eh?

[Alvin T. Grey]

Yes, I remember reading an article about "bog bodies" being found in northern Germany and such. Murder victims, people born with birth defects (if you had a birth defect that made you a drain on others back in those days, I wouldnt bet on you surviving very long) etc turning up in these bogs. Very interesting if somewhat morbid.

Have any of these popped up in Ireland?
Yeah, six or seven.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0117_060117_irish_bogmen_2.html

-snip-
Oldcroghan man shows signs of cruel torture before he was beheaded.

"He was stabbed, his nipples were sliced, and he had holes cut in his upper arms through which a rope was threaded in order to restrain him," Mulhall said. He was also cut in half across the torso.

Meanwhile, Clonycavan man suffered three axe blows to the head, plus one to his chest and was also disemboweled.

"There was definitely an attempt to use several different methods to traumatize and torture the men," Mulhall added


Fasinatingly enough there is an exhibit in the National Museum of Ireland at the moment. I went to see it just last week.....

[AgentM]

Yeah, six or seven.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0117_060117_irish_bogmen_2.html

-snip-
Oldcroghan man shows signs of cruel torture before he was beheaded.

"He was stabbed, his nipples were sliced, and he had holes cut in his upper arms through which a rope was threaded in order to restrain him," Mulhall said. He was also cut in half across the torso.

Meanwhile, Clonycavan man suffered three axe blows to the head, plus one to his chest and was also disemboweled.

Yeesh. Poor buggers.

[Mirror Lake 444]

Yeesh. Poor buggers.

You have to wonder what they did to deserve that?

[burntgorilla]

Exactly, and the fact that it was opened in this one which is very relevant to these days rather than any other is astonishing.

To be honest, has there ever been a time when other nations weren't trying to destroy Israel?