"Freedom of Religion" confused?

[Smugmofo]

This country has freedom of religion, why not freedom from religion?
Will our nations youth be better of following the text of some religion?
Most push censorship as their ideas are fed to you. What will their ideals save me from?

[Izdaari]

In the US, you have the freedom to worship, or not worship, as you choose. What you don't have is the right to impose a religion-free public culture on the majority who are religious.

So far as the constitutionality of it, I think the courts have tilted too far toward the "establishment clause" at the expense of the "free exercise" clause. Both are important, but there needs to be balance. The original intent was only to prevent an official national religion from being established, and that's good; there must not be one. But it was not to prevent all expressions of religiosity on public property, as for example in the current case of the large cross up on a hill in San Diego.

But if what you want to debate is the merits of religion vs. non-religion in general terms, I'm not going to bite. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other if we leave it that vague. I could debate the merits of one particular religion vs. another, or one particular religion vs. a particular secular worldview, i.e. Catholicism vs. Objectivism, or Mormonism vs. secular humanism, but we'd have to nail it down that much to be doing anything more than just venting hot air at each other. I do think it's better to believe in something than nothing, if only for the reason that people who believe in nothing are likely to believe in anything... but I'm satisfied, so far as public morality, if people have a coherent secular philosophy.

My own personal vote at this point is for a moderate and eclectic Protestantism. By which I do not mean lukewarm. Rather, it should be evangelical and enthusiastic but tolerant, and neither especially liberal nor conservative (in either the political or theological senses). Ideally (and my own personal blend) it should be leavened with Zen, Taoism, some Ayn Rand, and the Catholic intellectual tradition (the latter two to counter the lamentable Protestant tendency toward anti-intellectualism).

[neo of the mind]

"it should be leavened with Zen, Taoism, some Ayn Rand, and the Catholic intellectual tradition (the latter two to counter the lamentable Protestant tendency toward anti-intellectualism)."

I don't know much about it, but what would Zen and Taoism offer to Christianity? Meditation?

Ayn Rand is counter to Christianity, so why taint a Christian philosophy with a contradicting ideology?

"Protestant tendency toward anti-intellectualism" - Do you have any examples of this to back up this statement? The only anti-intellectualism I have ever been aware of has been from the historic Catholic church, not Protestants.

[Strel]

"it should be leavened with Zen, Taoism, some Ayn Rand, and the Catholic intellectual tradition (the latter two to counter the lamentable Protestant tendency toward anti-intellectualism)."

I don't know much about it, but what would Zen and Taoism offer to Christianity? Meditation?




A sense of perspective.:rolleyes: An appreciation that Christians are not the only religion in this country, and that they should stop acting as if they are.

[melchizedek22]

The problem with freedom of religion,is someone is wrong,someone is following a religion not based on reality.First and formost for me,I don't want anything
to do with a religion thats a fairytale.You have a right to believe in a fairytale,but who would want to?

[Strel]

The problem with freedom of religion,is someone is wrong,someone is following a religion not based on reality.First and formost for me,I don't want anything
to do with a religion thats a fairytale.You have a right to believe in a fairytale,but who would want to?

Sums up my feelings about Christianity pretty well. All religions are mythology. Some have more useful mythology than others.

[Meek Heir]

I do think it's better to believe in something than nothing, if only for the reason that people who believe in nothing are likely to believe in anything.

I would tend to disagree here. After all, to quote Jesus: Did you know that religious people are more likely to be superstitous?

I tend to see religous people disagree about athiests in two very seperate directions. Either we are crazy people who won't believe anythig they don't see, or we are ridiculously credible and manage to believe everything but The One Truth. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Izdaari]

"it should be leavened with Zen, Taoism, some Ayn Rand, and the Catholic intellectual tradition (the latter two to counter the lamentable Protestant tendency toward anti-intellectualism)."

I don't know much about it, but what would Zen and Taoism offer to Christianity? Meditation?Chiefly non-verbal insights about how people, the world and the universe work. That's something that's largely missing from the Western tradition.

Ayn Rand is counter to Christianity, so why taint a Christian philosophy with a contradicting ideology?Rand is counter to Christianity in two respects: her strident atheism, and her ethics of rational self-interest. But even after discarding those two obviously incompatible elements, I still find much of value in her work, especially her constant reminders to check one's premises, which most of us need, and her emphasis on rigorous Aristotelian logic. Of course, you could get most of that directly from Aristotle without all the baggage, but usually it's easier to get people to read Rand. I like her politics too: a hawkish brand of libertarianism, not unlike my own.

"Protestant tendency toward anti-intellectualism" - Do you have any examples of this to back up this statement? The only anti-intellectualism I have ever been aware of has been from the historic Catholic church, not Protestants.There were many great thinkers in Medieval and Renaissance Catholicism, among them Thomas Aquinas, William of Ockham and Duns Scotus. Catholic Scholastics pioneered many of the free market economic ideas later made popular by Adam Smith. The Jesuit order is still known for its outstanding scholars and a number of universities. Which is not to say that Catholicism has not been anti-intellectual at times, simply pointing out that they do have a strong tradition to the contrary.

So far as Protestant anti-intellectualism, here's a big fat reading list on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/guides/guide-display/-/1T6ZASO9TXJKC/104-0973365-6579909

[Izdaari]

I would tend to disagree here. After all, to quote Jesus: Did you know that religious people are more likely to be superstitous?

I tend to see religous people disagree about athiests in two very seperate directions. Either we are crazy people who won't believe anythig they don't see, or we are ridiculously credible and manage to believe everything but The One Truth. You can't have your cake and eat it too.I think you're getting something different out of that comment than I intended. I don't mean it's good for people to have a religion just to be believing in something. As far as I'm concerned, if you have a secular philosophy that satisfies you, good enough. But having a vacuum in your worldview isn't good, if only because of the tendency to fill it with the first thing that comes along.

[neo of the mind]

I think you're getting something different out of that comment than I intended. I don't mean it's good for people to have a religion just to be believing in something. As far as I'm concerned, if you have a secular philosophy that satisfies you, good enough. But having a vacuum in your worldview isn't good, if only because of the tendency to fill it with the first thing that comes along.

Like atheism. :D

[Izdaari]

Like atheism. :DUh huh. Or some weird cult. Or a nasty theocratic version of Christian Fundamentalism. Or Marxism-Leninism. Or... I think you get the picture. :p

(That comment is not meant to apply to the kind of atheism that is simply a lack of belief in God (which I find hard to clearly distinguish from agnosticism), but to the kind that's an active disbelief... which, since there cannot be enough evidence, must be based on faith in reductionist materialism.)

[neo of the mind]

Uh huh. Or some weird cult. Or a nasty theocratic version of Christian Fundamentalism. Or Marxism-Leninism. Or... I think you get the picture. :p

Oh, I do.

[melchizedek22]

Sums up my feelings about Christianity pretty well. All religions are mythology. Some have more useful mythology than others.

Thats exactly how I felt,till the Holy Spirit came upon me at 1200midnight Nov 1 1975.

[Strel]

Thats exactly how I felt,till the Holy Spirit came upon me at 1200midnight Nov 1 1975.


What was it wearing?

[neo of the mind]

Why do you people belittle others that you disagree with? This is a Religion and Philosphy forum and not a forum to make fun of people's beliefs.

[Mickey Shane]

Like atheism. :D
Like pentacostal beliefs. Yeeesh

[neo of the mind]

Like pentacostal beliefs. Yeeesh

Yeah, let's keep ragging on people.

[steveksux]

Yeah, let's keep ragging on people.Why can you rag on atheists but Mickey can't rag on pentacostals?

If you can't rag on the kind of "speaking in tongues", snake handling crazy fundamentalists he was referring to, who can you rag on?

Randy

[neo of the mind]

Why can you rag on atheists but Mickey can't rag on pentacostals?

If you can't rag on the kind of "speaking in tongues", snake handling crazy fundamentalists he was referring to, who can you rag on?

Randy


He can, I was saying let's continue it. Atheists that post on this forum, which is the majority of posters, love to belittle and make fun of Christians...let's do the same to them and see what happens.

[Strel]

He can, I was saying let's continue it. Atheists that post on this forum, which is the majority of posters, love to belittle and make fun of Christians...let's do the same to them and see what happens.


Please submit your data supporting the argument that most of the posters her are atheists.

Or are you arguing that anything short of snake-handlling, charismatic, the-Earth-is-6000-years-old types is tantamount to atheism?

BTW most of us (atheists or not) don't have a problem with Christians in general, just the extremist variety that spend their time proselytizing on message boards and trying to convince people that the sky isn't blue because dabiblesezso.

[Mickey Shane]

He can, I was saying let's continue it. Atheists that post on this forum, which is the majority of posters, love to belittle and make fun of Christians...let's do the same to them and see what happens.You've already been doing that yourself, 'O sanctimonous one:

According to you and your ilk, you need to have scientific observation of everything for it to be real, so if you contend that there is a space unicorn then your lying. That goes for any other made up crap arguments that you people bring out.

Let there be highlights.

[towski]

He can, I was saying let's continue it. Atheists that post on this forum, which is the majority of posters, love to belittle and make fun of Christians...let's do the same to them and see what happens.

Oh man, I would love to see your hard researched data that the majority of the posters on WS are atheists... :rolleyes:

[neo of the mind]

Please submit your data supporting the argument that most of the posters her are atheists.

Or are you arguing that anything short of snake-handlling, charismatic, the-Earth-is-6000-years-old types is tantamount to atheism?

BTW most of us (atheists or not) don't have a problem with Christians in general, just the extremist variety that spend their time proselytizing on message boards and trying to convince people that the sky isn't blue because dabiblesezso.

"Please submit your data supporting the argument that most of the posters here are atheists."

Easy. I will make a post to prove it.

[neo of the mind]

Oh man, I would love to see your hard researched data that the majority of the posters on WS are atheists... :rolleyes:

I didn't say WS, but implied only those that have posted in the Religion and Philosphy forum since I have been here. I can't speak for the past.

[Strel]

"Please submit your data supporting the argument that most of the posters here are atheists."

Easy. I will make a post to prove it.


I honestly don't know what the results of your investigation will be, but given your previous history of being chronically wrong...

[neo of the mind]

I honestly don't know what the results of your investigation will be, but given your previous history of being chronically wrong...


Then don't ask me to provide data then. If you don't want it then don't ask for it, I could care less.

[Strel]

Then don't ask me to provide data then. If you don't want it then don't ask for it, I could care less.



It should be no surprise that you would not wish to support your assertions with actual facts.

[neo of the mind]

It should be no surprise that you would not wish to support your assertions with actual facts.

Listen, I made a statement, you said you wanted data to back up my statement.

I would have to look at all the posts made in the forum and extract quotes by each member that posted that directly state their belief or non belief in God and/or reasonable statements that would lead a reasonable mind to come to the conclusion either way about their belief.

You then stated that you didn't see the point in me giving the data. Therefore, why should I waste my time?

[Strel]

Listen, I made a statement, you said you wanted data to back up my statement.

I would have to look at all the posts made in the forum and extract quotes by each member that posted that directly state their belief or non belief in God and/or reasonable statements that would lead a reasonable mind to come to the conclusion either way about their belief.

You then stated that you didn't see the point in me giving the data. Therefore, why should I waste my time?


Actually there's a much simpler way to find out, but you haven't thought of it yet. :lol:

But hey - whatever excuse you want to give for refusing to back up your statements with facts is fine with me. :rolleyes:

[neo of the mind]

Actually there's a much simpler way to find out, but you haven't thought of it yet. :lol:

But hey - whatever excuse you want to give for refusing to back up your statements with facts is fine with me. :rolleyes:

I know there is a simpler way, I could just post a poll.

But ok, I'll just do what your doing....

Strel is saying that I am right and therefore doesn't want me to give him data. :rolleyes:

[Strel]

I know there is a simpler way, I could just post a poll.

But ok, I'll just do what your doing....

Strel is saying that I am right and therefore doesn't want me to give him data. :rolleyes:


It's really too bad for you that people can just scroll up and read what I actually wrote, isn't it?

[neo of the mind]

It's really too bad for you that people can just scroll up and read what I actually wrote, isn't it?

again, I will do what you are doing.

Strel is saying that I am right but doesn't want anyone to scroll up and read his post.

[heel31ok]

It's really too bad for you that people can just scroll up and read what I actually wrote, isn't it?
NO, that is really too bad for all of us.

[Strel]

NO, that is really too bad for all of us.


Some people here really need to read this thread:

http://www.whistlestopper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48221

Neo makes an assertion, I (as well as one of our moderators) asked for some facts/data to back it up.

All I see now are sad excuses.

[neo of the mind]

Some people here really need to read this thread:

http://www.whistlestopper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48221

Neo makes an assertion, I (as well as one of our moderators) asked for some facts/data to back it up.

All I see now are sad excuses.

Again I will do what you do.

Strel is saying that I continue to be right but does not want anyone to look at his post where he contradicts is desire for data by pre-emptively dismissing it.

[Strel]

Again I will do what you do.

Strel is saying that I continue to be right but does not want anyone to look at his post where he contradicts is desire for data by pre-emptively dismissing it.


Give us the data, back up your assertion, or continue to deserve the derision you are getting.

[neo of the mind]

Give us the data, back up your assertion, or continue to deserve the derision you are getting.

Again, I will do what you do.

You don't want the data, you don't want me to back up my assertion, so that I will continue to deserve the derision I am getting from YOU.

[Strel]

Again, I will do what you do.

You don't want the data, you don't want me to back up my assertion, so that I will continue to deserve the derision I am getting from YOU.

You really just do not understand the concept of a straw man argument do you?

As many times as you try to misrepresent (which is just another word for "lie about") what I said, I can simply repeat the very direct and simple request.

You assert that most people on this board are atheists.
I am asking you to back that up with data.

You refuse to do so. End of story (and your credibility).

[neo of the mind]

You really just do not understand the concept of a straw man argument do you?

As many times as you try to misrepresent (which is just another word for "lie about") what I said, I can simply repeat the very direct and simple request.

You assert that most people on this board are atheists.
I am asking you to back that up with data.

You refuse to do so. End of story (and your credibility).


I was wondering when you were going to call somebody a liar again. It was only a matter of time. I wasn't giving you a straw man argument I was giving you an example of how you twist what people post.

My credibility is certainly not established by you.

[neo of the mind]

data:

In the Atheistic Life Moot thread alone, the tally is:

Professed Atheists
14

Professed Non-Atheists
6

I know of at least 2 other professed non-atheists outsdie of that thread and there are at least a couple of Atheists outside the thread as well.

So I stand by my assertion that the majority of posters in the Religion & Philosophy forum since I have been here are made up of Atheists. If anybody can refute that, go for it.

Fair enough lawyer?

[burntgorilla]

Most people don't post in the Religion and Philosophy folder. You said forum.

[neo of the mind]

Most people don't post in the Religion and Philosophy folder. You said forum.


You want to get technical?

Go to the home page of Whistle Stop FORUMS, notice the plural there.
Under Culture is the word "Forum".
Religion & Philosophy is a sub-forum and not a folder. If it was considered a folder then it would have the word folder above it and not forum.

That being said, we are posting on this specific forum or this specific folder, which was the scope of my comments and whatever you choose to call it doesn't refute my comments.

[bowerbird]

I am closing this thread.

Again I will remind everyone to debate the topic not the other members. Do not personalise. Do not make offensive generalisations either about individual religions or beliefs