Why We Rarely Hear from Moderate Muslims

[GI Joe]

Jamal Miftah, a Muslim who lives in Tulsa, wrote a column for the newspaper Tulsa World condemning Al Qaeda and calling on fellow Muslims to reject terrorism.

In return, he was kicked out of the local mosque by leaders until he apologizes for his article—and threatened with violence by other members of the peaceful Islamic community of Tulsa, Oklahoma.

vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbkrKH7SCio&eurl=


also

Here’s Mr. Miftah’s article in Tulsa World: Message of Islam is not jihad, fatwahs.


http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=061029_Op_G4_Messa31453

[rjamortega]

Hey GIJ, how's it going? I tried this one in the Religion forum, and it didn't get any interest either. People just don't want to acknowledge and talk about the backwards nature of "moderate" Islam.

[GI Joe]

Hey GIJ, how's it going? I tried this one in the Religion forum, and it didn't get any interest either. People just don't want acknowledge and talk about the backwards nature of moderate Islam.

Very true

[burntgorilla]

What do you want me to say?

[rjamortega]

What do you want me to say?

That says a ton, right there.

It should be pretty evident that GIJoe and I are pointing out what we see as the major problem with "moderate" Islam and how it plays into the terror problem today. I would think we might at least be countered. But the fact we are not is also extremely telling. The fact is, Islam is a BIG problem and virtualy every non-muslim agrees as well as a very few brave muslims like Miftah.

Let me clarify my use of the word "moderate". Jamal Miftah and all like him are the true moderate muslims, while the muslims and leaders as found at this Tulsa mosque represent mainstream Islam. Mainstream Islam is made up of a combination of people who sympathize and/or associate with the radicals, and those who are truly peaceful but do not dare speak out against terrorism.

Mainstream Islam is the number one danger that faces the world today. If and when it can be reformed will be the day we will really see considerable peace in the ME and around the world.

[burntgorilla]

I more or less agree with you. Did you expect me to defend this mosque? Why has Islam only become a danger in recent years?

[rjamortega]

I more or less agree with you. Did you expect me to defend this mosque? Why has Islam only become a danger in recent years?

Evolution? Growth? Changing times? Technological accessibility? But I assure you, from the 19th century to the 7th, non-muslims were always treated as second-class citizens and worse.

This is the problem with Islam. It hasn't really changed in fourteen hundred years, except now they have better access to the rest of the world.

[Atticus]

now they have better access to the rest of the world.Indeed. For a long time, Muslim cultures could ignore the rest of the world and just go on doing their traditional stuff. They just can't forgive us Westerners for sending them movies and pop music and McDonalds. They liked it so much better when they didn't know what they were missing.

[burntgorilla]

But I assure you, from the 19th century to the 7th, non-muslims were always treated as second-class citizens and worse. Same as Christianity, really.


This is the problem with Islam. It hasn't really changed in fourteen hundred years, except now they have better access to the rest of the world.

Well, I agree that they need some kind of equivalent to the Reformation, but I'm saying that more from an anti social conservative/religion stance than anything else.

Indeed. For a long time, Muslim cultures could ignore the rest of the world and just go on doing their traditional stuff. They just can't forgive us Westerners for sending them movies and pop music and McDonalds. They liked it so much better when they didn't know what they were missing.

Do you have an insight into the mindset of all one billion Muslims? I thought that would be an offensive generalisation.

[steveksux]

Are the only moderate Muslims in existence living in Dearborn, MI? Its weird because people say they're so rare, but we haven't had any Jihad-y stuff going on around there... So it just strikes me as weird that a population like that contains so many moderate muslims that just kind of live in America like its normal for Muslims to live peacefully in America... [/sarcasm]

Randy

[rjamortega]

Same as Christianity, really.
Well thank goodness Christianity got its head out of its butt. Right?


Well, I agree that they need some kind of equivalent to the Reformation, but I'm saying that more from an anti social conservative/religion stance than anything else.

...
That's a fair position to make your statement from. What matters is that you've got it right.

But also note BG, it is doubtful we will ever see folks like serenity, Independent, Michele and Equinox share your opinion in this thread.

[rjamortega]

Are the only moderate Muslims in existence living in Dearborn, MI? Its weird because people say they're so rare, but we haven't had any Jihad-y stuff going on around there... So it just strikes me as weird that a population like that contains so many moderate muslims that just kind of live in America like its normal for Muslims to live peacefully in America... [/sarcasm]

Randy

That's right Randy...the great majority of them are very quiet and peaceful living amongst us. But what do we know about what they think and say? Do we go to their mosques and listen to what is said and preached. Do you hear any of them voice opinions like Jamal Miftah? Let's see what happens when more Miftahs do start speaking out.

[steveksux]

That's right Randy...the great majority of them are very quiet and peaceful living amongst us. But what do we know about what they think and say? Do we go to their mosques and listen to what is said and preached. Do you hear any of them voice opinions like Jamal Miftah? Let's see what happens when more Miftahs do start speaking out.

You're sounding more than a little paranoid there... ;) Don't worry, the NSA is watching... FBI has penetrated their mosques.. GREAT! Now you've got ME sounding paranoid..

Actually the reason you don't hear about the moderate Muslims is the same reason you don't hear about the black kids in Detroit Public schools getting scholarships to college. The black kids in Detroit from gangs shooting up neighborhoods in drug wars is what gets on the news. If it bleeds, it leads.

Randy

[towski]

That's right Randy...the great majority of them are very quiet and peaceful living amongst us. But what do we know about what they think and say? Do we go to their mosques and listen to what is said and preached. Do you hear any of them voice opinions like Jamal Miftah? Let's see what happens when more Miftahs do start speaking out.

Maybe we don't hear more from them because when they do speak out, and say things like, I don't know, that they want to use the Koran to be sworn into office, guys like Prager jump all over them....

[rjamortega]

You're sounding more than a little paranoid there... ;) Don't worry, the NSA is watching... FBI has penetrated their mosques.. GREAT! Now you've got ME sounding paranoid..

Actually the reason you don't hear about the moderate Muslims is the same reason you don't hear about the black kids in Detroit Public schools getting scholarships to college. The black kids in Detroit from gangs shooting up neighborhoods in drug wars is what gets on the news. If it bleeds, it leads.

Randy

Well, I don't really doubt there is the potential for many more mosques like Muftah's. But tonight I will go home, have some good liquor, plunk on my guitar, do something with the little woman, and not worry too much about them there muslims.:rocking:

[rjamortega]

Maybe we don't hear more from them because when they do speak out, and say things like, I don't know, that they want to use the Koran to be sworn into office, guys like Prager jump all over them....

:lol: ...THERE YA GO!:thumbsup:

[Atticus]

Do you have an insight into the mindset of all one billion Muslims? I thought that would be an offensive generalisation.Not at all. In fact I'm just repeating what my Muslims students from the ME have told me. The threat from the West is as much cultural as anything. There are great conflicts between more traditional Muslims and younger ones who pay more attention to things like media. Western culture impinges on the dominance of Islamic traditions.

This isn't an offensive generalization. It's an observation and an interpretation you'll hear more from moderate Muslims educated in the West than from Westerners. The question in the thread was why the conflict between conservative Islam and the West has come about NOW rather than some other time over the last, say, 300 years. Answer? The world is getting smaller and Western culture is more difficult to ignore. It's attractions threaten to seduce Islamic young people, and more traditional people are fighting back.

[Elizabeth]

That tells you alot of what Muslims are all about. He had every right to voice his opinion, but the dictatorship made sure he was crucified for that.

Some people don't realize the problem we will have in this country if they come into it. The freedoms of voicing your opinion will stop completely, or like they do over there, they will kill those who have opinions without regret or regard for your family.

They are like the Hitler before them, marching off to kill the Israels and then Americans in their wake, we will suffer like a dog. They are stupid though, for they hate Hollywood, then go after Hollywood and leave the rest of us to pursue our freedoms of choice and find some happiness in life.

[serenity]

That tells you alot of what Muslims are all about. He had every right to voice his opinion, but the dictatorship made sure he was crucified for that.

Some people don't realize the problem we will have in this country if they come into it. The freedoms of voicing your opinion will stop completely, or like they do over there, they will kill those who have opinions without regret or regard for your family.

They are like the Hitler before them, marching off to kill the Israels and then Americans in their wake, we will suffer like a dog. They are stupid though, for they hate Hollywood, then go after Hollywood and leave the rest of us to pursue our freedoms of choice and find some happiness in life.


First of all, the American Right has more of an obssession with the evils of Hollywood than does anyone else.

Second, you don't know what "Muslims are all about." Yo are thinking of a particular portion of Islam. The majority of Muslims do not despise Western culture (if there is such a thing); many certainly have issues with parts of it, but are not aggressively violent or fanatical about it. In some countries, notably Iran, the youth tend overwhelmingly towards an admiration of much of Western culture. For many, the issue is FAR more a political than a cultural one.

Third, they are not "stupid."

[burntgorilla]

Well thank goodness Christianity got its head out of its butt. Right?

What with all the evangelicals, it seems to be going right back in. At least it's only gays they hate so far.


This isn't an offensive generalization. It's an observation and an interpretation you'll hear more from moderate Muslims educated in the West than from Westerners.

When I posted that I was still pissed off about getting points for talking Mormons I know. Still haven't heard on the appeal either, I don't know how it can take that long. I think you should have qualified who "they" are in your first post. All Muslims? Young Muslims? Old Muslims? Just Arab Muslims, are all Muslims?

[Atticus]

What with all the evangelicals, it seems to be going right back in. At least it's only gays they hate so far.



When I posted that I was still pissed off about getting points for talking Mormons I know. Still haven't heard on the appeal either, I don't know how it can take that long. I think you should have qualified who "they" are in your first post. All Muslims? Young Muslims? Old Muslims? Just Arab Muslims, are all Muslims?I meant traditional, often older Muslims who themselves would not be responsible for terrorism but who often provide the tacit acceptance/support that extremists have received far too widely.

[Severian]

Let me clarify my use of the word "moderate". Jamal Miftah and all like him are the true moderate muslims, while the muslims and leaders as found at this Tulsa mosque represent mainstream Islam. Mainstream Islam is made up of a combination of people who sympathize and/or associate with the radicals, and those who are truly peaceful but do not dare speak out against terrorism.

That's a contradiction in terms. The majority, or those who hold a middle position, are by definition "moderate"; the extremists are by definition a minority on either side. So if only a minority of Muslims are willing to oppose terrorism, as you claim, then they are by definition extremists within Islam.

Also, this news item suggests another reason you rarely hear from Muslim opponents of Jihadist terrorism: because you're not listening.

This item is, after all, about a Muslim who wrote a letter condemning terrorism. He says in the news footage that other Muslims expressed agreement with him. You've chosen to assume that the leaders of this particular mosque represent "mainstream" Islam.

Another recent example was the reaction by Muslim-bashers internationally to the controversy around an Australian sheik by the name of Hilaly. He made some incredibly sexist comments, for which he was roundly condemned by many Australians, including many Australian Muslims. Last I'd heard he'd been suspended from preaching at his mosque. His comments, however, were held up by Muslim-bashing pundits as an example of....fundamentalism on the march. If they'd mentioned the reaction, clearly it would have become an example of fundamentalism in retreat.

Another interesting example is the reaction to the election of Keith Ellison, a Muslim, as a U.S. Congressman. Ellison's certainly far from a religious fundamentalist; in fact politically he's a pretty standard liberal who supports gay rights, for example. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6127234.stm) But merely because of his religion, he's been demonized by the Muslim-bashers.

Ellison's responded to this by pointing out the Constitution provides there shall be no religious test for public office - proving himself a much better secularist than any of the Muslim-bashers.

So why do you rarely hear from moderate Muslims? Because you define any Muslim you hear from as not moderate.

[roderic]

There is too much generalising and talk about "them" here.
Did everybody know that there are 30-something different branches of Islam, and the 1.2 billion Muslims live in a wide variety of countries on different continents?

I'd say Islam and the Muslim world has only quite recently come into public awareness, in the 9/11 aftermath.