Is Tamworth racist?

[Essendon]

You're not welcome, town tells refugees

Justin Norrie, Urban Affairs Reporter
December 15, 2006

A MONTH before Tamworth hosts overseas musicians and fans at its world-renowned country music festival, the NSW town has become embroiled in a racism row over a decision to reject five Sudanese refugee families.

Tamworth City Council voted this week to spurn an offer by the Department of Immigration to resettle the families for fear it could lead to a repetition of the Cronulla riots, said the Mayor, James Treloar.

Cr Treloar told the Herald people were worried that allowing the families to move to Tamworth "could lead to a Cronulla riots-type situation. Ask the people at Cronulla if they want more refugees."

He added that "of the 12 Sudanese people who live in Tamworth, eight have been before the courts for everything from dangerous driving to rape. These people don't respect authority … they come from countries where there are outbreaks of TB [tuberculosis] and polio. How can we trust the department to screen those things?"

The council lacked the health services to support the families, he said. Claims that racist elements had guided the vote were "a media beat-up", he said.

The decision incensed three councillors who voted in favour of accepting the families.

Although an earlier poll of almost 500 residents found that only a quarter supported the move to welcome the families, "the silent majority" of the council's 50,000-odd constituents did not agree, Cr Warren Woodley said.

"I'm ashamed. I thought we'd moved on from the days of the White Australia [policy], the days of the right-wing guard that ran New England in the 1940s and '50s.

"Earlier this month Tamworth won the Best Western Friendly Town award. It's hypocritical."

At a meeting where the poll was conducted, several residents had said they did "not want the refugees coming and drinking our water supply, or taking our jobs, that sort of thing", Cr Woodley said. "I think you would have to say there was a racist element at play there."

Another councillor and local publican, Robert Schofield, agreed that racism had to "be a part of it. These are people escaping war and persecution. "I'm sickened by the lack of compassion," he said.

The Department of Immigration has recently embarked on a program of resettling refugees directly into rural and regional areas. A spokeswoman said the department had offered to fund the settlement at Tamworth over five years with the help of agencies such as Anglicare.

The Oxley Vale Anglican Church raised $10,000 to bring the families to Tamworth. Its minister, the Reverend Jon Cox, said he was deeply saddened by the lack of compassion shown by the council.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/youre-not-welcome-town-tells-refugees/2006/12/14/1165685828180.html

Is it racism?

[jamesrage]

I think it is a case of not wanting a repeat of certain events.From what I read from the story these people have not been around that many foreigners and the foreigners they have encountered did not make a good impression.If 67% of teenage drivers got into accidents would you want teens driving?

[Leo]

For a town that imports thousands of undesirable and rowdy elements every year for their lunatic 'country and western music' (which is not a part of Australian culture - but a US import) festival, I don't think objecting to five families (perhaps twenty people) is either logical or fair.

These boot-scooting, line-dancing, feeble-minded yokels deserve all the opprobrium that the world see fit to heap on them. If I ever have to go to the New England area, I will be giving Tamworth a big miss. :rolleyes:

[Atticus]

lunatic 'country and western music' .... boot-scooting, line-dancing, feeble-minded yokels Goodness, Leo! Tastes can be broad as well as deep. ;)

[Izdaari]

I'm not voting, as there is no "Maybe" option. I can't tell whether racism is a major motivating factor for most of the townspeople who don't want the refugees. I'm sure it is for some of them, but I'm not going to call a whole town racist if a few of them are. As Jamesrage points out, there are also pragmatic reasons why one might oppose the move. If I lived there I could go either way, depending on the specific backgrounds of the refugees. My ears certainly perked up at the mention of possible rapists being among them.

These boot-scooting, line-dancing, feeble-minded yokels deserve all the opprobrium that the world see fit to heap on them. If I ever have to go to the New England area, I will be giving Tamworth a big miss. :rolleyes:
Boot-scooting, line-dancing, yes. But there is no reason (other than the old TV show Hee-Haw, which though funny played up the worst stereotypes) to think country music fans are any less intelligent or less educated than others. I'm not especially a country music person but I like quite a bit of it, and I'd have to say Alison Krauss and Union Station (more properly classified as bluegrass, which would be a country subgenre) is one of my favorite bands of any genre.

[Nuke the Oil]

Tamworth is a small town out in the country where racism is still strong. Of course the decision is racist.

[jamesrage]

Tamworth is a small town out in the country where racism is still strong. Of course the decision is racist.

Does the town have a history of racism and do you actually know for sure they are racist or are you just expressing some prejudices towards small towns?

[dittohead not!]

Maybe this part:

He added that "of the 12 Sudanese people who live in Tamworth, eight have been before the courts for everything from dangerous driving to rape. These people don't respect authority … they come from countries where there are outbreaks of TB [tuberculosis] and polio. How can we trust the department to screen those things?"

is a better explaination of why the town doesn't want any more Sudanese.

[Jarlaxle]

No, that's impossible! This cannot be a real concern about safety and crime! Any time anyone other than a straight, white, Christian male is denied anything for any reason it MUST be racism! Any intelligent person knows this!

[Leo]

Boot-scooting, line-dancing, yes. But there is no reason (other than the old TV show Hee-Haw, which though funny played up the worst stereotypes) to think country music fans are any less intelligent or less educated than others. I'm not especially a country music person but I like quite a bit of it, and I'd have to say Alison Krauss and Union Station (more properly classified as bluegrass, which would be a country subgenre) is one of my favorite bands of any genre.

Actually my prejudice (if that's what it is) stems from slavishly adopting the culture of another society, not country and western music (which is just another musical genre). I quite like some bluegrass music. It is just another form of folk music, and if it is tuneful, what is there to dislike?

But Australia has never had 'cowboys', it has had drovers and stockmen. They did not dress like the American cowboys, they did not speak like the American cowboys, and they did not sing through their noses like the American cowboys.

There is a percentage of Australians who mindlessly emulate everything Americans do. I consider this unhealthy, not because it is Americans they are copying, but because they have their own culture which is being abandoned in favour of California. I would find it equally inappropriate if Australians embraced lederhosen and went about the place yodelling.

There are almost no Australians of US origin, so it is not a question of maintaining one's cultural heritage.

[Atticus]

But Australia has never had 'cowboys', it has had drovers and stockmen. They did not dress like the American cowboys, they did not speak like the American cowboys, and they did not sing through their noses like the American cowboys.Fair enough. I know many Americans (usually educated and well-off) who unreflectively obsess over the cultures of others, often inaccurately. It's a sort of romantic cultural phenomenon that comes from a dissatisfaction with one's own venue, I think.

But as to American culture, it is popular in many places (you can hear American pop music in almost any train station in the world) and the mystique of the American West was popularized (maybe the better term is "marketed") over 100 years ago, in Europe as well as in the American East. In fact, pulp writers in the late-19th century embellished the stories of gunfighters, marshalls, villains and the like for decades until the real experience of the West was quite obscured in the popular mind. It's the mystique everyone loves, not the real thing (sort of like imagining Britain as one great tale of Robin Hood). That's as much true for Americans as for anyone else.

Country music is much the same thing. Lots of country artists affect accents not their own, claim economic circumstances they never had, and pretend to suffering they never did. Still, I can teach nearly every concept in poetry, from metaphor and metonymy to rhyme and prosody using the lyrics of country songs. For some people it's the most sophisticated poetry they ever get.

end of derailment :sorry:

[Dr. Midnight]

I know many Americans (usually educated and well-off) who unreflectively obsess over the cultures of others, often inaccurately.


I am surrounded by these kinds of people.

I don't know if this is racism as much as caution, perhaps the town officials should try looking into the backgrounds of these men, if possible?

If that's not possible, then I would let them in under close supervision (at least for a little while).

On the other hand, I see the small-town racism where I live as well, so I can (unfortunately) see it being that sort of mindset as well.

In a town full of white, anglo-saxon protestants, there's bound to be racism somewhere along the line, in my experience.

[Nuke the Oil]

Does the town have a history of racism and do you actually know for sure they are racist or are you just expressing some prejudices towards small towns?

I have been to many similar small town in that region, and racism is rampant, you hear the word '******' a lot, and don't even mention aboriginies... These places are not often visited by foreigners and few immigrate to them. The older people tend be more racist, stuck in the 'white Australia' of their childhood.

[Nuke the Oil]

No, they rejected these refugees on the basis of the threat of 'Cronulla' riots, something that would be astonishing in a small town like Tamworth.

[lord tammerlain]

Actually my prejudice (if that's what it is) stems from slavishly adopting the culture of another society, not country and western music (which is just another musical genre). I quite like some bluegrass music. It is just another form of folk music, and if it is tuneful, what is there to dislike?

But Australia has never had 'cowboys', it has had drovers and stockmen. They did not dress like the American cowboys, they did not speak like the American cowboys, and they did not sing through their noses like the American cowboys.

There is a percentage of Australians who mindlessly emulate everything Americans do. I consider this unhealthy, not because it is Americans they are copying, but because they have their own culture which is being abandoned in favour of California. I would find it equally inappropriate if Australians embraced lederhosen and went about the place yodelling.

There are almost no Australians of US origin, so it is not a question of maintaining one's cultural heritage.
As a side note, the Cowboy is not as much from California, but from the US/Canada west, excluding the west coast for the most part. From Texas to Arizona up to Alberta and Sask. That is where the Cowboy history is from and where it is maintained for the most part.

[Dr. Midnight]

At a meeting where the poll was conducted, several residents had said they did "not want the refugees coming and drinking our water supply, or taking our jobs, that sort of thing", Cr Woodley said. "I think you would have to say there was a racist element at play there."


It's things like this that lead me to believe that there was probably some of both caution and racism involved.

[jamesrage]

I have been to many similar small town in that region, and racism is rampant, you hear the word '******' a lot, and don't even mention aborigines...

But have you actually been to Tamworth and how many small towns have you actually been to?Did you visit only one or two towns from when you were a small a child and heard some old fart say the "N" word?



These places are not often visited by foreigners and few immigrate to them.

I can't really imagine a small town having anything to offer tourist."Come see the amazing people sitting in their rocking chairs rocking back and forth and dust blow by"

The older people tend be more racist, stuck in the 'white Australia' of their childhood.

So your saying small towns are thriving retirement communities?

[Soren]

As a side note, the Cowboy is not as much from California, but from the US/Canada west, excluding the west coast for the most part. From Texas to Arizona up to Alberta and Sask. That is where the Cowboy history is from and where it is maintained for the most part.
Depends on where in California you are talking about. The "Bakersfield Sound" is a style of country music named after a place in CA. But yes, I would say that most of the poulation of CA has little interest in country, though I'd say a substatial expanse of the Central Valley and parts of several other regions of the state are certainly fans of it.

[Nuke the Oil]

But have you actually been to Tamworth and how many small towns have you actually been to?Did you visit only one or two towns from when you were a small a child and heard some old fart say the "N" word?

I admittedly have never been to Tamworth, but I originally come from a place near Ipswich, home of the controversial Pauline Hanson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Hanson

I have been to many small towns and country areas in Southeast Queensland and Northern New South Wales and racism is still rampant, sorry to say.

I can't really imagine a small town having anything to offer tourist."Come see the amazing people sitting in their rocking chairs rocking back and forth and dust blow by"


Yes, which allows them to remain insular and possibly racist in a globalised world.

So your saying small towns are thriving retirement communities?

Actually many small towns in Australia are dying as all the young people leave to learn and live in the big cities. There are no jobs in the small towns and nothing much to do.

[Leo]

As a side note, the Cowboy is not as much from California, but from the US/Canada west, excluding the west coast for the most part. From Texas to Arizona up to Alberta and Sask. That is where the Cowboy history is from and where it is maintained for the most part.

Thanks for that info, but California was just a random example. It is the mindlessness of emulating a society with which one has no connection, historical or otherwise, to which I am objecting. That it happens to be the USA, is of little relevance to my point. :)

[jamesrage]

I admittedly have never been to Tamworth, but I originally come from a place near Ipswich, home of the controversial Pauline Hanson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Hanson

I have been to many small towns and country areas in Southeast Queensland and Northern New South Wales and racism is still rampant, sorry to say..


Yes, which allows them to remain insular and possibly racist in a globalised world.


So you been to a few small towns so they all must be racist? It seems that the people in Tamworth are only applying the logic that you are using.

[Nuke the Oil]

So you been to a few small towns so they all must be racist? It seems that the people in Tamworth are only applying the logic that you are using.

James have you been to any small towns in Australia?

[jamesrage]

James have you been to any small towns in Australia?

I have never been to a small town in Australia,just because you met a few people from a few small towns in Australia it does not mean all small towns are racist.It seems to me you are applying the logic that since a few people you met from a couple of small towns are racist therefore all small towns must be racist.It seems that it is okay for you to use that logic but not Tamworth.

[Nuke the Oil]

I have never been to a small town in Australia,just because you met a few people from a few small towns in Australia it does not mean all small towns are racist.It seems to me you are applying the logic that since a few people you met from a couple of small towns are racist therefore all small towns must be racist.It seems that it is okay for you to use that logic but not Tamworth.

Well the statements indicate that they are racist. Why do you feel the impulsive need to defend Australian racists. And there are many many racists in Australia, especially in the country, believe me.

[Eddie]

Come on, they know nothing about these individuals except for their ethnicity. Od course it`s racism. Just because you`ve had bad experience with individuals from an ethnic group in the past does not make it allright to base decissions about individuals on ethnicity or race. If they has said they didn`t want any immigrants because it would mean aditional costs for the budget, the arument would not have been racist, but claiming that they don`t want to accept sudanese becasue sudanese are rapist and have polio is certainly racist.

[jamesrage]

Well the statements indicate that they are racist.

Show me the racist statements,I have not seen any racist statements made by the people in Tamworth.


Why do you feel the impulsive need to defend Australian racists.

I do not know if these people are racist I have never met them nor have I ever chatted with them.As far as I know they have not used any racist words or statements towards the immigrants.They are cautious because 8 of the 12 Sudanese have been in trouble with the law for something.If the majority of accidents in your city were caused by seniors wouldn't you want stricter guild lines when it came to issuing driver's licenses to senior citizens or perhaps no license for them?If the majority of crime in your city was committed by minors
after midnight wouldn't you want curfew laws for minors?


And there are many many racists in Australia, especially in the country, believe me.

It seems to me your opinion about small towns is based on the few you been to.,just like the people of Tamworth's opinion about the Sudanese is based on the 12 they have known or met.

[jamesrage]

Come on, they know nothing about these individuals except for their ethnicity. Od course it`s racism. Just because you`ve had bad experience with individuals from an ethnic group in the past does not make it allright to base decissions about individuals on ethnicity or race.

So anyone who wants stricter requirements for seniors citizens and teenagers to get driver's licenses must hate seniors citizens and teenagers?

[Eddie]

So anyone who wants stricter requirements for seniors citizens and teenagers to get driver's licenses must hate seniors citizens and teenagers?

Who said anything about hatred? Treating individuals based on their ethnicity is textbook racism.

[jamesrage]

Who said anything about hatred? Treating individuals based on their ethnicity is textbook racism.

So what about treating people different based on age?Or what people who sit there and say that one town must because racist because the few other small towns they been too had racist people in them?

The discrimination is based on nationality not race.So therefore it is not a act of racism.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.




Now if you can prove to me these people discriminated against these people based on race rather than nationality you might be able to convince me they are racist.Has the town kept any black Australians,aborigines or any other people with black skin from moving to their town? They did let 12 Sudanese immigrants move to their town in the past.

[Eddie]

So what about treating people different based on age?

Differential treatment based on age is something that has been agreed upon by most members of a community.Preferable, everyone should be treated as individuals but sometimes collective treatment is more prudent. Of course, treatment according to race or ethnicity may sometime be warranted (in some cases profiling might be acceptable). It doesn`t make it any less racist.

The discrimination is based on nationality not race.So therefore it is not a act of racism.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.




Now if you can prove to me these people discriminated against these people based on race rather than nationality you might be able to convince me they are racist.Has the town kept any black Australians,aborigines or any other people with black skin from moving to their town? They did let 12 Sudanese immigrants move to their town in the past.

Weak. Treatment of individuals based on their national ancestory is the same thing as treating them according to some racial notions. These attempts to excuse racism through claims of cultures and ethnicities among right-wing posters on this forum is beginning to worry me. In the states, racism is predominantly based on questions of skin colour (blacks, whites, yellows and red). In other parts of the world and throughout history, racism has been most noticeable and prelavent between ethnic groups.

[Izdaari]

Weak. Treatment of individuals based on their national ancestory is the same thing as treating them according to some racial notions. These attempts to excuse racism through claims of cultures and ethnicities among right-wing posters on this forum is beginning to worry me. In the states, racism is predominantly based on questions of skin colour (blacks, whites, yellows and red). In other parts of the world and throughout history, racism has been most noticeable and prelavent between ethnic groups.
Yeah, that is weak. But what isn't, and what Jamesrage brought up before and you ignored, are the legitimate concerns about the criminal records of many of the refugees. That isn't based on race or nationality, but on a track record of bad behavior by individuals, two-thirds of the individuals in question.

[Seki]

Alison Krauss
That girl can sing.

That said, I would call this racist. If people of other heritages are allowed to come and settle in Tamworth, there is no reasonable justification for denying Sudanese. If these particular Sudanese are a majority criminal, then perhaps there is a case, but that doesnt seem to be the reality of it.

[Eddie]

Yeah, that is weak. But what isn't, and what Jamesrage brought up before and you ignored, are the legitimate concerns about the criminal records of many of the refugees. That isn't based on race or nationality, but on a track record of bad behavior by individuals, two-thirds of the individuals in question.

No, these are new individuals. Tamworth doesn`t want to allow new families from Sudan since other families from Sudan has behaved badly in the past. Judging the actual perpetrators of the crimes mentioned in the article as criminals would not have been racist or even bad form. But judging individuals as (future) criminals just because they share the same national background as the aformentioned perpetrators is just wrong.

[Izdaari]

No, these are new individuals. Tamworth doesn`t want to allow new families from Sudan since other families from Sudan has behaved badly in the past. Judging the actual perpetrators of the crimes mentioned in the article as criminals would not have been racist or even bad form. But judging individuals as (future) criminals just because they share the same national background as the aformentioned perpetrators is just wrong.
Oops, I guess didn't read carefully enough the first time.

But still, given a bad history with the 12 Sudanese already living there, 8 of the 12 having been in trouble with the law since arrival, I could see some wariness as being understandable. The Dept. of Immigration seems to not be doing a good job of screening the individuals... if, indeed, they're screening them at all. If that's the case, why shouldn't the citizens of Tamworth expect the same proportion of troublemakers from the next batch?

[Eddie]

Oops, I guess didn't read carefully enough the first time.

But still, given a bad history with the 12 Sudanese already living there, 8 of the 12 having been in trouble with the law since arrival, I could see some wariness as being understandable. The Dept. of Immigration seems to not be doing a good job of screening the individuals... if, indeed, they're screening them at all. If that's the case, why shouldn't the citizens of Tamworth expect the same proportion of troublemakers from the next batch?

There is bad history regarding african-americans in the US as well, but that doesn`t mean that they should be treated differently from whites. Sure there are costs and problems associated with refugees but when they bring the ethnicity of the Sudanese refugees into the question it becomes an issue of racism (and the comments regarding infectous diseases, taking the jobs and drinking their water supply strengthens this impression).

[Izdaari]

There is bad history regarding african-americans in the US as well, but that doesn`t mean that they should be treated differently from whites. Sure there are costs and problems associated with refugees but when they bring the ethnicity of the Sudanese refugees into the question it becomes an issue of racism (and the comments regarding infectous diseases, taking the jobs and drinking their water supply strengthens this impression).
I agree their ethnicity shouldn't be an issue. But what should be is that the Dept. of Immigration doesn't seem to be screening the individuals, or is doing a poor job of it. That needs to be corrected.

[Eddie]

I agree their ethnicity shouldn't be an issue. But what should be is that the Dept. of Immigration doesn't seem to be screening the individuals, or is doing a poor job of it. That needs to be corrected.

Agreed. If the department of immigration isn`t doing its job properly, it should be scolded. Had the refusal been more framed as an act of defiance and protest against the dept of immigration I don`t think we would have had this discussion. :)

[jamesrage]

Differential treatment based on age is something that has been agreed upon by most members of a community.Preferable, everyone should be treated as individuals but sometimes collective treatment is more prudent. Of course, treatment according to race or ethnicity may sometime be warranted (in some cases profiling might be acceptable). It doesn`t make it any less racist.



Weak. Treatment of individuals based on their national ancestory is the same thing as treating them according to some racial notions. These attempts to excuse racism through claims of cultures and ethnicities among right-wing posters on this forum is beginning to worry me. In the states, racism is predominantly based on questions of skin colour (blacks, whites, yellows and red). In other parts of the world and throughout history, racism has been most noticeable and prelavent between ethnic groups.


As I said before this does not look like a case of racism.The discrimination is based on nationality, therefor it is not racism.They let 12 other Sudanese people live in their town,had they been racist like you and others have stated they would not have let the first 12 move in to their town.If the potential immigrants were from Ireland or some other country and the past immigrants from Ireland caused problems I sure they would be against any more Irish moving in.

[Dangerrmouse]

There's a major difference between the average Sudanese refugee (how DO you "screen" refugees?) and the hypothetical average Irish migrant. One is adapted to strong sunlight, and would within living memory have been denied admission to Australia as a matter of policy due to the colour of his skin. The other is bright lobster red, but will eventually tan to match the ethnic majority Australians

[Eddie]

As I said before this does not look like a case of racism.The discrimination is based on nationality, therefor it is not racism.They let 12 other Sudanese people live in their town,had they been racist like you and others have stated they would not have let the first 12 move in to their town.If the potential immigrants were from Ireland or some other country and the past immigrants from Ireland caused problems I sure they would be against any more Irish moving in.

First of all, the discrimination is not based on nationality, it is based on origin country of the refugees. The refugees where no longer Sudanese nationals and the only information the australians gleaned from knowing the refugees origin country was the refugees Sudanese ethnicity. Therefor, the Sudanese refugees where rejected because of their ethnicity.

And had they been given a choice, they might not have let those 12 in, in the past (but that`s really beside the fact, racist notions can easily develop as a result of actual events and experiences).

And sure, former Irish might have been prevented from moving there and that would alsol have been discrimination based on ethnicity.

[Nuke the Oil]

As I said before this does not look like a case of racism.The discrimination is based on nationality, therefor it is not racism.They let 12 other Sudanese people live in their town,had they been racist like you and others have stated they would not have let the first 12 move in to their town.If the potential immigrants were from Ireland or some other country and the past immigrants from Ireland caused problems I sure they would be against any more Irish moving in.

James you are talking about things you do not know about. I would bet you a $100 that if the immigrants were black people of another nationality you would be hearing the exact same complaints. Racism is endemic in country Australia. Discrimination against the Irish is more of an American thing, though it did exist in Australia in the 20s and 30s - and I am perplexed on why you think one form of arbitrary discrimination is better than the other. They are racist, James. It may surprise you, but there actually are racist people alive today! And some of them are white!:rolleyes:

[jamesrage]

First of all, the discrimination is not based on nationality, it is based on origin country of the refugees. .

So it is nationality,these people are Sudanese meaning they are from Sudan.Sudan is a another country duh.

The refugees where no longer Sudanese nationals and the only information the australians gleaned from knowing the refugees origin country was the refugees Sudanese ethnicity. Therefor, the Sudanese refugees where rejected because of their ethnicity.
The Sudanese were rejected because other Sudanese ****ed up not leaving a good impression of Sudanese in the minds of the residents in Tamworth.


And had they been given a choice, they might not have let those 12 in, in the past (but that`s really beside the fact, racist notions can easily develop as a result of actual events and experiences).

It seems since you can not prove any past racism of this town all your claims of that town being racist is invalid.

[jamesrage]

James you are talking about things you do not know about. I would bet you a $100 that if the immigrants were black people of another nationality you would be hearing the exact same complaints.

Do you have any such evidence of the town being racist towards black people?The town let 12 Sudanese move to their town,were there any of those same complaints?

How did the first 12 Sudanese move to Tamworth if the people there are racist?



Racism is endemic in country Australia.

I think you are basing that opinion on a few small towns that you been to and not on fact.

[Eddie]

So it is nationality,these people are Sudanese meaning they are from Sudan.Sudan is a another country duh.

Nope. They are not Sudanese nationals as they are no longer citizens of Sudan. They are ethnicly Sudanese as they originally come from Sudan.

The Sudanese were rejected because other Sudanese ****ed up not leaving a good impression of Sudanese in the minds of the residents in Tamworth.

And those Sudanese where no longer Sudanese nationals but Australian nationals with Sudanese ethnicity. Treating individuals based on their ethnicity is racism. Case closed.

It seems since you can not prove any past racism of this town all your claims of that town being racist is invalid.

That`s just stupid. The existance of past racism is not evidence for current racism just like the non-existance of past racism is not evidence for current inexistance of racism. Past actions are merely indications, nothing more (otherwise no-one would be sentanced for a crime since we are all born innocent).

[jamesrage]

Nope. They are not Sudanese nationals as they are no longer citizens of Sudan. They are ethnicly Sudanese as they originally come from Sudan.


And those Sudanese where no longer Sudanese nationals but Australian nationals with Sudanese ethnicity. Treating individuals based on their ethnicity is racism. Case closed.

The discrimination is based on nationality,not ethnicity.

Racism is based on race.

Let me show you the definition since you seem so persistent in redefining the word.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.




As I said before the discrimination is not based on race,it is based on the nationality of those immigrants.



That`s just stupid. The existance of past racism is not evidence for current racism just like the non-existance of past racism is not evidence for current inexistance of racism. Past actions are merely indications, nothing more (otherwise no-one would be sentanced for a crime since we are all born innocent).

Past actions would indicate the town is not racist since they let 12 other Sudanese move to their town.

[Eddie]

The discrimination is based on nationality,not ethnicity.

Racism is based on race.

Let me show you the definition since you seem so persistent in redefining the word.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.




As I said before the discrimination is not based on race,it is based on the nationality of those immigrants.


First of all, these where refugees. they where no longer Sudanese nationals. They where merely of Sudanese ethnicity. You have no leg to stand on.

Furthermore, citizenship does not have anything to do with the behaviour or characteristics of individual or groups of individuals. You can`t seriously believe this yourself.

Past actions would indicate the town is not racist since they let 12 other Sudanese move to their town.

Not really. Past actions of the local leadership indicate nothing in this case as the citizens where not given the vote on the past action.

[Leo]

Has anyone here ever been to Tamworth? I have - only passing through, en route to more interesting destinations - but it is your typical unattractive Australian country township. I have no reason whatsoever to stop there again.

It is situated on the New England Plateau at somewhere around 1,500 ft (which the local tourist authorities describe as 'stunning mountain scenery' :rolleyes: ) and follows the standard format of a main street festooned with commercial signs of striking vulgarity. The concept of a centre of art and culture is not one which springs readily to mind.

Here are is an example of what the local tourist authority considers to be one of its main aesthetic attractions.

http://www.totaltravel.com.au/guide/photos/fossickers/tamworthattractions2.jpg

And that, M'Lud, concludes the case for the prosecution. :D

[Izdaari]

Leo, if I understand your point...

They are not culturally elite, therefore they are racist? :thinking:

[Nuke the Oil]

To all Americans: I know you have trouble believing this, but there are a lot of racists in Australia. Per capita we probably have more racists than you do. And they are concentrated in rural areas.

[Leo]

Leo, if I understand your point...

They are not culturally elite, therefore they are racist? :thinking:

LOL! Izdaari, that picture is featured prominently in their civic and tourist publications!

It is not a question of being 'culturally elite', it is a question of being blind. This is a community which is apparently proud of a 30 foot high concrete guitar, and exhibits a slavish following of a totally foreign society's traditions! :eek:

But the evidence of their racism does not lie in their questionable cultural leanings, it comes from the survey which indicates a preference based upon race.

Listen to people like Nuke the Oil. He is (I assume) an Aussie born and bred, and he knows about these things. :)

Rural Australia is a cultural wasteland of terrifying proportions, and the effect of the local yokels is not softened, as it is in Europe, by the presence of beautiful scenery and gracious buildings.

Of course urban Australia is another animal entirely. :)

[Atticus]

LOL! Izdaari, that picture is featured prominently in their civic and tourist publications!

It is not a question of being 'culturally elite', it is a question of being blind. This is a community which is apparently proud of a 30 foot high concrete guitar, and exhibits a slavish following of a totally foreign society's traditions! :eek:

But the evidence of their racism does not lie in their questionable cultural leanings, it comes from the survey which indicates a preference based upon race.

Listen to people like Nuke the Oil. He is (I assume) an Aussie born and bred, and he knows about these things. :)

Rural Australia is a cultural wasteland of terrifying proportions, and the effect of the local yokels is not softened, as it is in Europe, by the presence of beautiful scenery and gracious buildings.

Of course urban Australia is another animal entirely. :)The idea that the rural Australians are have "questionable cultural leanings" because those leanings stretch all the way out of their country is, perhaps, a point worth making. But your mocking of their choices smacks of a kind of elitism (as Izdaari points out) that I find off-putting. There are large swaths of America where locals are proud of things others would find garish and or even, dare I use the term, gauche. I once lived about 100 km from a large statue of Superman not far from a quilt museum. Legend has it that there is, somewhere on display, the world's largest ball of twine. For you to denounce "country and western" music because it is American makes as little sense as denouncing a taste for rock and roll or jazz or blues, all American forms. What makes this particular brand of music especially problematic, other than that it doesn't fit the education of your tastes?

BTW, there is in my own country a prejudice on the two coasts against the middle (and vice versa). Many sophisticates who live in New York and visit their friends in San Francisco refer to them as "fly over" states. Having lived in both places, I can tell you that this prejudice is equally unflattering to both. The fact that you consider merely showing us a big guitar somehow closes your case demonstrates their uncritical prejudices less than it demonstrates your own.

[jamesrage]

First of all, these where refugees. they where no longer Sudanese nationals. They where merely of Sudanese ethnicity. You have no leg to stand on.

Furthermore, citizenship does not have anything to do with the behaviour or characteristics of individual or groups of individuals. You can`t seriously believe this yourself.


Regardless of what you try to say these people are seen as Sudanese since they are from Sudan,so it is discrimination based on nationality not on race..


Not really. Past actions of the local leadership indicate nothing in this case as the citizens where not given the vote on the past action.


You just seem so desperate to paint these people as racist.As far as we know they probably did have a vote on the issue.

[jamesrage]

To all Americans: I know you have trouble believing this, but there are a lot of racists in Australia. Per capita we probably have more racists than you do. And they are concentrated in rural areas.

The people of Tamworth are just like you.Just like you they met a few people from some other place and now assume that the majority of people from that place or those places represent the whole group.Just like you probably only visiting a few small towns with the majority of people you met there being racist, so therefore you think all small towns are racist.The people of Tamworth only knowing a few sudanese,whom the majority of Sudanese whom they know have trouble with the law therefore they think majority of people from Sudan are like this.The people of Tamworth are only using the same type of statistics that you are using,their's is based on people of a particular nationality yours is based small town/rural people.

[Eddie]

Regardless of what you try to say these people are seen as Sudanese since they are from Sudan,so it is discrimination based on nationality not on race.

How can it be based on nationality when they share the same nationality as those that are discriminating? The only part of their former nationality that is left is their Sudanese ethnicity. Based on your twisted logic, treating immigrants differently because they are immigrants is not racist either since it`s about past nationality. Heck, treating african-americans differently could be argued to be about past nationality of their ancestors. This is just BS apologism.

You just seem so desperate to paint these people as racist.As far as we know they probably did have a vote on the issue.

And you just seem so desperate to defend racist actions...

And no doubt the city council cast a vote on the previous issue, but there are no reason to assume that they issued a poll last time where the Tamworth residents got the opportunity to speak their mind (and we are discussing the town, not the city council).

[jamesrage]

[QUOTE=Leo;930311]. The concept of a centre of art and culture is not one which springs readily to mind.

Here are is an example of what the local tourist authority considers to be one of its main aesthetic attractions.
/QUOTE]

The same thing can be said about art in larger cities.

For example this fraud calling himself a artist named Wolfgang Laib
http://www.jca-online.com/images/laib3.jpg

or this fraud also calling himself a artist who goes by the name of Andres Serrano.The only thing he did here was piss in a jar and put a plastic rosary cross with Jesus on it in that jar.
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~twt/piss.jpg

or this crap by some fraud with no talent posing as a artist who goes by the name Stephen Pearcy
http://www.sacunion.com/images/article_photos/LOCKYER_PAINTING_art.jpg

[jamesrage]

How can it be based on nationality when they share the same nationality as those that are discriminating?

Really how is that,are the residents also from Sudan?

The only part of their former nationality that is left is their Sudanese ethnicity. Based on your twisted logic, treating immigrants differently because they are immigrants is not racist either since it`s about past nationality.

The people from Sudan are seen as Sudanese because they are are from Sudan.The potential new immigrants who are being discriminated against because they are from Sudan,the only reason why the Sudanese immigrants are being discriminated against is because of the behavior 2/3 of Sudanese already living in Tamworth,not 2/3 of people of different skin color as you keep on insisting.


Heck, treating african-americans differently could be argued to be about past nationality of their ancestors. This is just BS apologism.

One would think that since African Americans are born here they would be just Americans,not African-Americans.I do not consider myself European-native-American because of ancestry.




And you just seem so desperate to defend racist actions...


Nothing you describe is racist.You are trying to turn discrimination based on nationality into racism.I already showed the definition of racism and I am pretty sure racism is defined the same in Australia as it is defined here in the USA.IF you want to see racism look up KKK on wikipedia or just glance at the stormfront website,those are some racist ****s.When you or someone else misuse the word "racist" you make people numb to the word,for example all the pro-illegals calling the minutemen racist or anyone else who opposes illegal immigration.


And no doubt the city council cast a vote on the previous issue, but there are no reason to assume that they issued a poll last time where the Tamworth residents got the opportunity to speak their mind (and we are discussing the town, not the city council).

If they discriminated against Black Australians, black British people, anyone else of African ancestry,aborigines or any other people with different skin color you would be right that this is a case of racism.However you are wrong.

[Eddie]

Really how is that,are the residents also from Sudan?


The people from Sudan are seen as Sudanese because they are are from Sudan.The potential new immigrants who are being discriminated against because they are from Sudan,the only reason why the Sudanese immigrants are being discriminated against is because of the behavior 2/3 of Sudanese already living in Tamworth,not 2/3 of people of different skin color as you keep on insisting.

They are seen as Sudanese because people assume they have Sudanese ethnicity. That is what is left of nationality once the legal citizenship goes away. They are seen as former Sudanese nationals, ie; ethnicly Sudanese.

When people treat others based on their nationality, that is racism. And it becomes even more apparant when the individuals in question share the same current nationality. "No dogs, no Jews, no Irish" was only racism towards jews?

And yes, they have been discriminated against partly because the actions of other Australian nationals with Sudanese ethnicity (not that I see what carrying contagious disease, stealing jobs and drinking water supply has anything to do with criminal actions :rolleyes: ).

One would think that since African Americans are born here they would be just Americans,not African-Americans.I do not consider myself European-native-American because of ancestry.

Sure, they are americans. Just like the Sudanese refugees are now Australian. Both treatments are just as racist.

Nothing you describe is racist.You are trying to turn discrimination based on nationality into racism.

No, in this case I`m arguing that treating individuals based on their former nationality (ie; ethnicity) is racism.

I already showed the definition of racism and I am pretty sure racism is defined the same in Australia as it is defined here in the USA.

And I`ve allready explained to you that treating individuals based on their ethnicity is racism as well. Most of the world doesn`t think in racial categories, but ethnic categories.

IF you want to see racism look up KKK on wikipedia or just glance at the stormfront website,those are some racist ****s.When you or someone else misuse the word "racist" you make people numb to the word,for example all the pro-illegals calling the minutemen racist or anyone else who opposes illegal immigration.

And everytime someone denies that treatment based on ethncicity is racism he is apologising for the most common type of racism. Objecting to immigration is not racist, objecting to imigration based on the notion that mexicans are inferior is (and yes, mexico is a nation, mexican is a nationality and ethnicity).

If they discriminated against Black Australians, black British people, anyone else of African ancestry,aborigines or any other people with different skin color you would be right that this is a case of racism.However you are wrong.

Racism is not simply about the colour of your skin. It could be, but there is much more to it than that... Americans treating Irish differently because of their ethnicity was a rather telling aspect of racism towards a distinct sub-group of "white" people (ie, ethnicly Irish)

[Dangerrmouse]

Regardless of what you try to say these people are seen as Sudanese since they are from Sudan,so it is discrimination based on nationality not on race..

You just seem so desperate to paint these people as racist.As far as we know they probably did have a vote on the issue.

You admit they are discriminated against, but ludicrously quibble as to why. Show me a Sudanese who is racially indistinguishable from a white Australian.

On what evidence do you assert that "as far as we know" We know nothing of the kind.

[jamesrage]

They are seen as Sudanese because people assume they have Sudanese ethnicity. That is what is left of nationality once the legal citizenship goes away. They are seen as former Sudanese nationals, ie; ethnicly Sudanese.
NO they are seen as Sudanese because they are from Sudan.

When people treat others based on their nationality, that is racism.

There you go again trying to redefine racsim.




No, in this case I`m arguing that treating individuals based on their former nationality (ie; ethnicity) is racism.


And I`ve allready explained to you that treating individuals based on their ethnicity is racism as well. Most of the world doesn`t think in racial categories, but ethnic categories.


Again you are wrong here is the definition of racism.It says nothing of nationality.

dictionary.com
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.



If you wish the definition of racism to be bastardize so that people will blow off any accusations of racism in the future please write to the dictionary companies so it will apply to discrimination based on nationality.

[jamesrage]

You admit they are discriminated against, but ludicrously quibble as to why. Show me a Sudanese who is racially indistinguishable from a white Australian.


I do not know if there is or is not a Sudanese who is racially indistinguishable from a white Australian.I imagine with 36 million + people and it was under British control until 1956 there are probably white Sudanese.It still does not change the fact the Sudanese immigrants were discriminated against because of the fact they are from Sudan.

[Eddie]

NO they are seen as Sudanese because they are from Sudan.

Yes, they are seen as ethnicly Sudanese. When you come from a country but doesn`t live there anymore, you commonly belong to that nations ethnic group. A chinese immigrant in the US is ethnicly chinese, not a chinese national.

There you go again trying to redefine racsim.


I suggest you read up on the phenomenon and I suggest that you start with Wikipedia as it gives a quick overview of the subject. I think you will be surprised.

If you wish the definition of racism to be bastardize so that people will blow off any accusations of racism in the future please write to the dictionary companies so it will apply to discrimination based on nationality.

And this is the real gist of the problem. Had it just been a semantic discussion, I would probably ahve quit a few pages back since it`s rather tedious, but here you display that kind of apologistic attitude that makes this issue important. By assuming that including discrimination based on ethnicity or country of birth would somehow decrease the negative meaning of the term racism you expose your idea that it is somehow legitimate and justified to treat individuals based on their ethnicity and national origin. And this is very troubling.

[Nuke the Oil]

The people of Tamworth are just like you.Just like you they met a few people from some other place and now assume that the majority of people from that place or those places represent the whole group.Just like you probably only visiting a few small towns with the majority of people you met there being racist, so therefore you think all small towns are racist.The people of Tamworth only knowing a few sudanese,whom the majority of Sudanese whom they know have trouble with the law therefore they think majority of people from Sudan are like this.The people of Tamworth are only using the same type of statistics that you are using,their's is based on people of a particular nationality yours is based small town/rural people.

Their's is based on a particular race not nationality - therefore it is racism. if these people were white they wouldn't warrant a mention.

[jamesrage]

Their's is based on a particular race not nationality - therefore it is racism. if these people were white they wouldn't warrant a mention.
It is not based on race,it is based on the fact the immigrants are from Sudan.Where you are from has nothing to do with race.The article did not said anything about race.I am sure if some white Sudanese wanted to move to Tamworth they would be still up in arms over Sudanese moving to Tamworth.

[jamesrage]

Yes, they are seen as ethnicly Sudanese. When you come from a country but doesn`t live there anymore, you commonly belong to that nations ethnic group. A chinese immigrant in the US is ethnicly chinese, not a chinese national.



I suggest you read up on the phenomenon and I suggest that you start with Wikipedia as it gives a quick overview of the subject. I think you will be surprised.



And this is the real gist of the problem. Had it just been a semantic discussion, I would probably ahve quit a few pages back since it`s rather tedious, but here you display that kind of apologistic attitude that makes this issue important. By assuming that including discrimination based on ethnicity or country of birth would somehow decrease the negative meaning of the term racism you expose your idea that it is somehow legitimate and justified to treat individuals based on their ethnicity and national origin. And this is very troubling.


As said before in other post when you misuse words you devalue them.Your rhetoric sounds like something would pop up in a illegal immigration debate with the pro-illegals trying to label anyone who opposes illegal immigration as a racist.

[Nuke the Oil]

It is not based on race,it is based on the fact the immigrants are from Sudan.Where you are from has nothing to do with race.The article did not said anything about race.I am sure if some white Sudanese wanted to move to Tamworth they would be still up in arms over Sudanese moving to Tamworth.

:rolleyes:

And you garner this from your deep understanding of the Australian mentality. Isn't that right? You have heard of the racist riots in Sydney? Well Sydney is a haven of enlightenment compared to Tamworth.

[Nuke the Oil]

More info on the general racism and stupidity rampant in Tamworth:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/tamworth-tainted-by-small-minds/2006/12/22/1166290740841.html?page=fullpage

IT'S the cool of the evening in Bent Street, West Tamworth. Tall, slender, coal-black young men are at ease on their front verandah beneath a small flag decal on the door bearing the words "New Sudan".

A few doors up, a single mother shoos her young daughter inside. She is a large woman, and stands barefoot on her dying front lawn, pointing angrily at her neighbours. "Did you ask them about the 11-year-old-girls that go into that house? It's totally inappropriate," she says, her eyes welling with tears of rage.

"Did you ask them about driving off and not paying for petrol? We don't do that. Why are the Aborigines scared of them? They stand outside here on the street yabbering away on their mobile phones. They just stare at you. Everybody's terrified of them in the street. Why can't they just go back where they came from?"

*snip*

While Treloar keeps running off at the mouth about resident Sudanese, the Oxley Local Area commander, Superintendent Tony Jefferson, gives the lie to the Mayor's words.

He says some have been charged with assault, traffic and domestic matters - but "they do not stand out over any other ethnic group in the community".

Unrepentant, Treloar says: "If this is racist, well so be it. Call me a racist then."

*snip*

Treloar says there was a bad start, with rumours of about 16,000 Sudanese arriving. Fears surfaced about disease, and the water supply running out.

*snip*

Treloar says his emails are running 50:50, with foes of the program urging him: "Don't you budge on it". But the backlash against rejection has started. Churches are mobilising. Petitions are being circulated, with the Anglicans expecting 1500 signatures. Vicki Harbison's group, Welcome Inn, has 800 letters of support for resettling the refugees and 300 signatures.

"Only a fool would base a decision on a poll of 1 per cent of the population," Harbison says.

"We're not an isolated village, we're part of a global village and I'm ashamed to be from Tamworth right now."

On Thursday, Gleny Rae Virus and her Tamworth Playboys were on the radio performing Redneck Lovesong.

In Bent Street, the woman was back on her front lawn, talking about working hard to pay her rent, about her father the policeman, of living on the Gold Coast long ago. "I work hard. I pay my way. Nobody helps me," she says, pointing up the street again. "They get everything."

Typical. A lot of racism fed on hyped up rumours of ridiculous numbers of immigrants, sexual assualt and petrol stealing. Small town Australia alright.

[Leo]

The idea that the rural Australians are have "questionable cultural leanings" because those leanings stretch all the way out of their country is, perhaps, a point worth making. But your mocking of their choices smacks of a kind of elitism (as Izdaari points out) that I find off-putting. There are large swaths of America where locals are proud of things others would find garish and or even, dare I use the term, gauche. I once lived about 100 km from a large statue of Superman not far from a quilt museum. Legend has it that there is, somewhere on display, the world's largest ball of twine. For you to denounce "country and western" music because it is American makes as little sense as denouncing a taste for rock and roll or jazz or blues, all American forms. What makes this particular brand of music especially problematic, other than that it doesn't fit the education of your tastes?

BTW, there is in my own country a prejudice on the two coasts against the middle (and vice versa). Many sophisticates who live in New York and visit their friends in San Francisco refer to them as "fly over" states. Having lived in both places, I can tell you that this prejudice is equally unflattering to both. The fact that you consider merely showing us a big guitar somehow closes your case demonstrates their uncritical prejudices less than it demonstrates your own.

Stop being defensive and read my post again. Country and Western is just another form of rather simple folk music. It is not my preferred musical genre, but my reaction to it is largely ambivalance, and some of it can be quite pleasant.

My objection to the Tamworth Country and Western Music Festival is the cultural adoption - ten gallon hats, decorated 'cowboy' boots, 'boot scooting', etc. - of something that has no connection with traditional Australian culture or experience. Morris Dancing would be more relevent to Outback Australia (and that is not even slightly relevent). It is a mindless emulation of a foreign culture, and my objections have nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that the culture concerned is American.

Australia has never had 'cowboys' or 'ranches' as such. There were drovers and cattle or sheep stations. Australia has had a much less violent, but no less colourful, history than the United States. There is as much tradition to draw upon, without the need to uncritically adopt the traditions of another nation. That Australians should adopt some English, Irish, Scottish, Italian, Greek, Lebanese, Chinese or Vietnamese traditions makes much more logical sense, as Australia has had extensive migration from these societies. There has been virtually no migration from the United States. So the adoption of US traditions is merely a regrettable form of cultural cringe.

And it is not elitist to aspire to more developed forms of art, music and literature.

[Essendon]

It doesn't help that Australian country and western music is painfully unoriginal and dull, even by country and western standards!

[Dr. Midnight]

In Bent Street, the woman was back on her front lawn, talking about working hard to pay her rent, about her father the policeman, of living on the Gold Coast long ago. "I work hard. I pay my way. Nobody helps me," she says, pointing up the street again. "They get everything."


Of course they'll get "everything," they're international refugees.

And from this article, their lives aren't exactly the picnic this lady seems to assume they are.

[Atticus]

Stop being defensive and read my post again. Country and Western is just another form of rather simple folk music. It is not my preferred musical genre, but my reaction to it is largely ambivalance, and some of it can be quite pleasant.

My objection to the Tamworth Country and Western Music Festival is the cultural adoption - ten gallon hats, decorated 'cowboy' boots, 'boot scooting', etc. - of something that has no connection with traditional Australian culture or experience. Morris Dancing would be more relevent to Outback Australia (and that is not even slightly relevent). It is a mindless emulation of a foreign culture, and my objections have nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that the culture concerned is American.I understand your point, but I'm not sure that's the only one you're making. First, as I mentioned in another post, the cultural milieu you're referring to isn't indigenous to many of the AMERICANS who enjoy this music. "Country" is quite disticnt from "Western" as a musical genre for example, and they rely on different cultural experiences as well. Also, like much good pop music (and that's what it is) C&W often draws on much more universal themes than you admit here (e.g., being jilted in love, finding yourself on the wrong side of the law for personally justifiable reasons, resentment of sophisticates and the urban). Also, C&W relies much less on the icons of the old west than it does on the details of RURAL life generally (e.g., pick-up trucks, long-haul trucks, physical labor, trains, admiration for traditional manliness). Perhaps rural Australians never had "ranches," but I'll bet pick-up trucks are endemic. Most Americans who love country music have never spent more than a few hours on a horse.So the adoption of US traditions is merely a regrettable form of cultural cringe.Perhaps. But the popularity of this musical form is no less regrettable than any other--and in comparison to those others it comes no more from the power of American marketing and no [EDIT--should be "less"] more from the universality of the human experiences it details.And it is not elitist to aspire to more developed forms of art, music and literature.But it is elitist to judge an art that one does not completely appreciate for not having had an opportunity to educate one's taste to it. This is demonstrated by your insistence on denigrating the whole class rather than judging individual species. Pope teaches us that every art should be judged on its own terms. Judging Country and Western music solely by tastes educated in other forms is elitist, I'm sorry to say. And insisting that the people of Tamworth are dupes to an alien form may speak more to your misunderstanding of their local culture and what resonates with their experience than...well, than what? Your superior taste and understanding? The stance of the urban sophisticate judging the supposedly inferior reactions of the country person is a trope of some centuries standing. But that's okay--they judge you back. ;) :flowers:

[jamesrage]

:rolleyes:

And you garner this from your deep understanding of the Australian mentality. Isn't that right?
I understand from what I read from the article.Not some preconceived notion that all small towns are full of racist.

You have heard of the racist riots in Sydney?

This is not Sydney were are debating about,we are debating about Tamworth
not Sydney.

Well Sydney is a haven of enlightenment compared to Tamworth

Why is that?Is it because they listen to country music live in small towns and use words like "howdy","yall" and "ain't" and prefer wide open spaces instead of cramped over crowded large cities?

You should admit that you know as much about Tamworth as I do and that you are basing your opinion about Tamworth on preconceived notions that all small towns are racist.

[jamesrage]

More info on the general racism and stupidity rampant in Tamworth:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/tamworth-tainted-by-small-minds/2006/12/22/1166290740841.html?page=fullpage



Typical. A lot of racism fed on hyped up rumours of ridiculous numbers of immigrants, sexual assualt and petrol stealing. Small town Australia alright.

Some opinion piece some reporter is not proof of racism.

[Leo]

I understand your point, but I'm not sure that's the only one you're making.

Well, if you're unsure, perhaps you should find out for certain, before you start beating me around the head with a supposition. :D

Also, like much good pop music (and that's what it is) C&W often draws on much more universal themes than you admit here (e.g., being jilted in love, finding yourself on the wrong side of the law for personally justifiable reasons, resentment of sophisticates and the urban).

All of which may be true, but has not been negated by anything I wrote. My view of American Country and Western music is that it is a fairly simple form of folk music, and has appeal as such. Every culture has its own form of folk music.

The US, being a very powerful agency, has been able to market its particular form of folk music, as it has done with all aspects of its society, more successfully than most. The US is also more commercial and more narcissistic than most societies, so there is a lot of motivation to market various aspects of its society. I have no problem with that, I just don't buy the goods.

Perhaps rural Australians never had "ranches," but I'll bet pick-up trucks are endemic.

It is a wager you would comprehensively lose. :) 'Pick-up trucks' are unheard of in Australia. Rural Australians drive 'utilities'.

Most Americans who love country music have never spent more than a few hours on a horse.Perhaps. But the popularity of this musical form is no less regrettable than any other--and in comparison to those others it comes no more from the power of American marketing and no more from the universality of the human experiences it details.

Please stop reading into my words what you want to see there. I did not describe any art form as regrettable. I described the cultural cringe of some Australians as regrettable, and I do not resile from that.

But it is elitist to judge an art that one does not completely appreciate for not having had an opportunity to educate one's taste to it. This is demonstrated by your insistence on denigrating the whole class rather than judging individual species. Pope teaches us that every art should be judged on its own terms. Judging Country and Western music solely by tastes educated in other forms is elitist, I'm sorry to say.

I have not judged the musical genre any further than describing it as relatively simple folk music.

In support of which I might point out that Country and Western seldom, if ever, utilises counterpoint, dissonance, inversion, modulation, the chromatic scales, multi-part harmonies, multiple lietmotifs, and such decorative devices
as accelerando, pizzicato, grace notes, or even rubato.

There is no attempt at the classical sonata form. It is melodic and has rythm to be sure, but there is no exposition, development, or recapitulation. It creates only one mood, and tell a tiny part of only one story.

This is not elitism, it is a recognition of the limitations of a particular musical form.

And insisting that the people of Tamworth are dupes to an alien form may speak more to your misunderstanding of their local culture and what resonates with their experience than...well, than what? Your superior taste and understanding? The stance of the urban sophisticate judging the supposedly inferior reactions of the country person is a trope of some centuries standing. But that's okay--they judge you back. ;) :flowers:

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Whether you chose to describe the phenomenon as being 'dupes to an alien form', 'mindlessly following a foreign tradition', or 'engaging in a cultural cringe', the evidence lies in the fact that the people engaged in the Tamworth Country and Western Music Festival are promoting a culture which has nothing to do with Australia, and no connection with their own ethnic heritage.

You may consider this progressive if you wish, I consider it weak-minded and unhealthy.

And you may chuck about ad hominems about elitism and urban sophisticates all you wish, but I have made no case which warrants such criticisms. I have addressed the inappropriateness of the behaviour of a certain group of people, and I have analysed the structure of a certain musical genre, no more than that.

[Leo]

Why is that?Is it because they listen to country music live in small towns and use words like "howdy","yall" and "ain't" and prefer wide open spaces instead of cramped over crowded large cities?


LOL! You just demonstrated a huge, and presumptious ignorance of anything outside your national borders.

No Australian, rural or otherwise, ever uses terms such as "howdy","yall" and "ain't", except when he is poking fun at the American West. Had you cited "ow yer going", "stone the flaming crows!" or "to die" (for today) you might have indicated some slight (if cliched) knowledge of rural Australian culture.

You should admit that you know as much about Tamworth as I do and that you are basing your opinion about Tamworth on preconceived notions that all small towns are racist.

LOL! Based upon the evidence of your ignorance, (which you have so kindly provided), I don't think any native born Australian is likely to admit that he knows as much (little?) as you do about Tamworth, or anywhere else in rural Australia. :lol:

[jamesrage]

LOL! You just demonstrated a huge, and presumptious ignorance of anything outside your national borders.

No Australian, rural or otherwise, ever uses terms such as "howdy","yall" and "ain't", except when he is poking fun at the American West. Had you cited "ow yer going", "stone the flaming crows!" or "to die" (for today) you might have indicated some slight (if cliched) knowledge of rural Australian culture.



I admit that I do not know how the people who live in small towns speak.



LOL! Based upon the evidence of your ignorance, (which you have so kindly provided), I don't think any native born Australian is likely to admit that he knows as much (little?) as you do about Tamworth, or anywhere else in rural Australia. :lol:

Judging from your's and Nuke the Oil's post,your knowledge about small towns in Australia is about the same as mine seeing how you two have preconceived notions about small towns and people who listen to country music,so do sit there and pretend to be knowledgeable about Tamworth when you are not.

[Nuke the Oil]

Some opinion piece some reporter is not proof of racism.

How about the blatantly racist quotes? James, stop defending racists.

[Nuke the Oil]

Judging from your's and Nuke the Oil's post,your knowledge about small towns in Australia is about the same as mine seeing how you two have preconceived notions about small towns and people who listen to country music,so do sit there and pretend to be knowledgeable about Tamworth when you are not.

But I have been to many small towns in Australia and encountered racism. You have never been to a small town in Australia and it is doubtful that you have either read or seen anything on television relating to them. They are racist, James.

[jamesrage]

How about the blatantly racist quotes? James, stop defending racists.

An opinion piece written by someone is not proof that the people in Tamworth are racist and the quotes are most likely bogus.The pro-illegals here in the States lie their *** off all the time about the opposition.People tend to lie, exaggerate or have selective memory when it comes to certain things,for example Bush is a pro-illegals and he referred to the minute men as vigilantes or the anti-war nuts spew the lie that this war is illegal or that Bush lied.

[jamesrage]

But I have been to many small towns in Australia and encountered racism.

Define what you mean by "many small towns".And how many people did you actually meet in those towns? Just because you met a few racist in a few small towns does not mean every small town is full of racist.


You have never been to a small town in Australia and it is doubtful that you have either read or seen anything on television relating to them. They are racist, James.

It seems that you and Leo have have very bigoted views that people in small towns are racist and stupid.

I used to view small town people as redneck inbreed hillbilly country music listening militia racist and I used to make fun of their accents and tell jokes like how many "Q:rednecks does it take to change a light bulb?A:Three,one to change the bulb the other two to write a song about the old on." and laugh at the "stop inbreeding now,ban country music" bumper stickers in novelty/head shops.I know that not everyone is a walking cliché(although some of the political forums seem to prove me wrong in that belief) just because they listen to a certain type of music or because they live in small towns.

[Nuke the Oil]

An opinion piece written by someone is not proof that the people in Tamworth are racist and the quotes are most likely bogus.The pro-illegals here in the States lie their *** off all the time about the opposition.People tend to lie, exaggerate or have selective memory when it comes to certain things,for example Bush is a pro-illegals and he referred to the minute men as vigilantes or the anti-war nuts spew the lie that this war is illegal or that Bush lied.

What does American immigration or war have to do with small town Australian racism? The article says what it says. There is less reason to believe that the reporter is lying than there is to believe that there is no racism in Tamworth. You really have no clue what you are talking about.

[Eddie]

As said before in other post when you misuse words you devalue them.Your rhetoric sounds like something would pop up in a illegal immigration debate with the pro-illegals trying to label anyone who opposes illegal immigration as a racist.

This is not an illegal immigration debate so I don`t really understand why you keep on insisting bringing this issue up?!? :confused:

[Nuke the Oil]

Define what you mean by "many small towns".And how many people did you actually meet in those towns? Just because you met a few racist in a few small towns does not mean every small town is full of racist.

By many small towns, I mean dozens. How many locals did I meet cumulatively - hundreds, if not thousands. Racism is very common in these towns. Racism is alive and well in Australia today. Your absurd defensiveness is leading me to believe that you may have racist attitudes yourself that you are paradoxically ashamed of. You seem to believe that 'everything is OK' only if no racists exist. Racists do exist unfortunately.


It seems that you and Leo have have very bigoted views that people in small towns are racist and stupid.

I used to view small town people as redneck inbreed hillbilly country music listening militia racist and I used to make fun of their accents and tell jokes like how many "Q:rednecks does it take to change a light bulb?A:Three,one to change the bulb the other two to write a song about the old on." and laugh at the "stop inbreeding now,ban country music" bumper stickers in novelty/head shops.I know that not everyone is a walking cliché(although some of the political forums seem to prove me wrong in that belief) just because they listen to a certain type of music or because they live in small towns.

Not everyone in small towns is racist. But racism is more common than in big cities.

[jamesrage]

What does American immigration or war have to do with small town Australian racism?

That people will lie their *** off in order to demonize someone else.

The article says what it says.
The author of the article could be lying his *** off.There is around close to 40 thousand people living in Tamworth (http://www.answers.com/topic/tamworth-new-south-wales) and far as I know the reporter found only one or two racist living in that town in order to demonize the whole town.


There is less reason to believe that the reporter is lying than there is to believe that there is no racism in Tamworth.
There might be a few racist in Tamworth,but just because the author of a news article quotes one or two people it does not make the town and all the people in that town racist.

You really have no clue what you are talking about.
Actually it is you who does not have a clue.If you think you can post a measly article by someone who either makes up quotes or quotes something by one or two individuals and expect other people to take you seriously you are sadly mistaken.

[Nuke the Oil]

I never said that everyone in Tamworth was racist. The decision by the council was racist. The article mentions racist comments made by the mayor. Therefore it is rather relevant don't you think? :rolleyes:

[jamesrage]

By many small towns, I mean dozens. How many locals did I meet cumulatively - hundreds, if not thousands. Racism is very common in these towns. Racism is alive and well in Australia today.

There are probably racist in every country in the world,however it doesn't make all those countries racist.

Your absurd defensiveness is leading me to believe that you may have racist attitudes yourself that you are paradoxically ashamed of. You seem to believe that 'everything is OK' only if no racists exist. Racists do exist unfortunately.

It seems you are so desperate to be right you blatantly contradict yourself
by accusing me of being a closet racist while at the same time accuse me being naive to the existence of racist?



Not everyone in small towns is racist. But racism is more common than in big cities.

I do not doubt there are racist in Australia,what I doubt is the claim that these people are racist because of the fact they discriminated against the new immigrants because of their experience with people from the same country of origin not because of their race.

[jamesrage]

I never said that everyone in Tamworth was racist. The decision by the council was racist.

The decision was not based on race.Race had nothing to do with their decision, they did not want them there because they had a bad experience with other people from Sudan not because of race.If these were white Sudanese they would not want them in Tamworth either.



The article mentions racist comments made by the mayor. Therefore it is rather relevant don't you think? :rolleyes:

Anyone can write something and claim that someone else said it in a article.

[Nuke the Oil]

There are probably racist in every country in the world,however it doesn't make all those countries racist.

No, government decisions make a country racist - like the decision made by the Tamworth council.

It seems you are so desperate to be right you blatantly contradict yourself
by accusing me of being a closet racist while at the same time accuse me being naive to the existence of racist?

The idea works like this. If you are a racist you could still believe racism is bad - because this idea has been drummed into you. You do not wish to identify yourself as bad, so the only option left is to redefine racism as something that you do not identify with. If someone identifies certain trends that you do identify with as racist, then you need to defend yourself by claiming that the behaviour is not racist at all.

I don't know if you are a racist.

I do not doubt there are racist in Australia,what I doubt is the claim that these people are racist because of the fact they discriminated against the new immigrants because of their experience with people from the same country of origin not because of their race.

They would be up in arms if a bunch of black Australians wanted to move to Tamworth, you can be sure of that. Their 'experience' was mostly rumour rather than fact, in true stereotypical small-town fashion.

[Nuke the Oil]

The decision was not based on race.Race had nothing to do with their decision, they did not want them there because they had a bad experience with other people from Sudan not because of race.If these were white Sudanese they would not want them in Tamworth either.

What if the bad experience was fictional?

Anyone can write something and claim that someone else said it in a article.

Really? Wow. Well maybe Tamworth doesn't even exist! I mean, you have only read about it in articles.:rolleyes: Generally quotes in major newspapers are factual - though sometimes taken out of context.

[jamesrage]

What if the bad experience was fictional?
Could your bad experience of small towns be fictional as well?It seems to me you may or may not have a hatred of small towns.



Really? Wow. Well maybe Tamworth doesn't even exist! I mean, you have only read about it in articles.:rolleyes: Generally quotes in major newspapers are factual - though sometimes taken out of context.

As I said before anybody can write something down and claim someone else said it.
No, government decisions make a country racist - like the decision made by the Tamworth council.

Again you have not shown any proof.

The idea works like this. If you are a racist you could still believe racism is bad - because this idea has been drummed into you. You do not wish to identify yourself as bad, so the only option left is to redefine racism as something that you do not identify with. If someone identifies certain trends that you do identify with as racist, then you need to defend yourself by claiming that the behaviour is not racist at all.

I don't know if you are a racist.

I know what behaviors are racist I have actually met racist.Here is the definition of racism.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism)

1.a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. [a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

I do not have to redefine racism and if I care whether or not someone thought I was a racist I wold back out of every illegal immigration debate when someone yelled racist.

They would be up in arms if a bunch of black Australians wanted to move to Tamworth, you can be sure of that.

I doubt that.Because those black Australians would not be from Sudan,they would be people from Australia and it is not race the People of Tamworth are discriminating on it is country of origin.So as I said before the people of Tamworth would have the same problem if the immigrints were white Sudanese as the do with black Sudanese.



Their 'experience' was mostly rumour rather than fact, in true stereotypical small-town fashion.

So as long as a newspaper article has views that you agree with says so, so it must be true,but if people whose views you disagree with say something it must be false?

[Nuke the Oil]

Could your bad experience of small towns be fictional as well?It seems to me you may or may not have a hatred of small towns.

Why would I hate small towns?


As I said before anybody can write something down and claim someone else said it

Again you have not shown any proof.

You have shown nothing to back up your position. I have shown things that you choose not to accept because you don't like what they say. Find something to refute them, if you can.

I know what behaviors are racist I have actually met racist.Here is the definition of racism.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism)

1.a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. [a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

I do not have to redefine racism and if I care whether or not someone thought I was a racist I wold back out of every illegal immigration debate when someone yelled racist.

The Tamworth council is expressing intolerance for other races. What is the problem here?

I doubt that.Because those black Australians would not be from Sudan,they would be people from Australia and it is not race the People of Tamworth are discriminating on it is country of origin.So as I said before the people of Tamworth would have the same problem if the immigrints were white Sudanese as the do with black Sudanese.

:rolleyes: When Australia had the 'White Australia' policy they kept 'undesirable races' out by use of an English test. If they failed the English test they wouldn't be able to enter the country. According to you the government racists were not racist at all. They just didn't like people who didn't speak English.:rolleyes:

Racists are rarely up front and honest about their racism.


So as long as a newspaper article has views that you agree with says so, so it must be true,but if people whose views you disagree with say something it must be false?

A prestigious broadsheet has more credibility than some woman living down the street, don't you think?

[jamesrage]

Why would I hate small towns?

Maybe the same reason I used to hate small towns.Out in the middle of nowhere,miles from any decent places to get things




You have shown nothing to back up your position. I have shown things that you choose not to accept because you don't like what they say. Find something to refute them, if you can.

A newspaper article allegedly quoting a few town council men means nothing

The Tamworth council is expressing intolerance for other races. What is the problem here?


I am under the impression the discrimination is not based on race but rather country of origin.Which has nothing to do with race.You can be white black or what color and come from the same country.I am sure in many parts of the world were Americans are hated,they could care less if you are a liberal,conservative,native American or Americans of African,European,Asian,middle eastern,Aborigine decent.


:rolleyes: When Australia had the 'White Australia' policy they kept 'undesirable races' out by use of an English test. If they failed the English test they wouldn't be able to enter the country. According to you the government racists were not racist at all. They just didn't like people who didn't speak English.:rolleyes:

A English test is not racist,it is common sense that you would want the people speaking the same language regardless what the color of their skin is.

Racists are rarely up front and honest about their racism.

If that is true then how do you know for sure the people in those small towns you alleged to have been to are racist?

A prestigious broadsheet has more credibility than some woman living down the street, don't you think?



With journalist reporting fake news to stir up our enemies like Newsweek and the New York times revealing classified information to terrorist, Reuters doctoring photos in the Israeli/Lebanon conflict and the BBC's so called unbiased reporting a media outlets words mean nothing. Do you have any video of these town council spewing racist comments?

[Dangerrmouse]

One conservative paper here has picked it up now.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=D1QM0P4BFKAMTQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQ YIV0?xml=/news/2007/01/15/wrefugees15.xml

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/01/15/wrefugee15.jpg

All Christians, they fled civil war and unrest in southern Sudan, but say they still face persecution in Australia.

Henry Tombek, 23, no longer ventures into Tamworth's centre after being punched in the face during a night out on the town in what he says was an unprovoked attack.

"People say we are causing trouble here but how can we cause trouble when we just go from home to work and back again?" said Mr Tombek, who wants to move to Sydney. "Why pick on us like this? I can only think that it's because we're black."

He's the one on the right.


Spot the Sudanese, James!

[jamesrage]

One conservative paper here has picked it up now.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=D1QM0P4BFKAMTQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQ YIV0?xml=/news/2007/01/15/wrefugees15.xml

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/01/15/wrefugee15.jpg

All Christians, they fled civil war and unrest in southern Sudan, but say they still face persecution in Australia.

Henry Tombek, 23, no longer ventures into Tamworth's centre after being punched in the face during a night out on the town in what he says was an unprovoked attack.

"People say we are causing trouble here but how can we cause trouble when we just go from home to work and back again?" said Mr Tombek, who wants to move to Sydney. "Why pick on us like this? I can only think that it's because we're black."


A few bad apples does not reflect the 40,000 people that live there.A video of council men making racist remarks would be nice,because right now it is getting down to he said she said.And considering the fact some of you all consider English proficiency test to racist,I really have to question whether or not what you say is true.


He's the one on the right.


Spot the Sudanese, James!
According to the caption under the photo both men are Sudanese "Diktor Malok, left, and Henry Tombek fled Sudan" You probably didn't read that part."

[Dangerrmouse]

Neither of them look particularly white, which was one of your excuses for the racism displayed.

[Nuke the Oil]

Maybe the same reason I used to hate small towns.Out in the middle of nowhere,miles from any decent places to get things

Yes, small towns are boring, but is that a reason to hate them?

A newspaper article allegedly quoting a few town council men means nothing

Do you have anything to dispute it? I'm still waiting.

I am under the impression the discrimination is not based on race but rather country of origin.Which has nothing to do with race.You can be white black or what color and come from the same country.I am sure in many parts of the world were Americans are hated,they could care less if you are a liberal,conservative,native American or Americans of African,European,Asian,middle eastern,Aborigine decent.

You haven't travelled much, have you?

A English test is not racist,it is common sense that you would want the people speaking the same language regardless what the color of their skin is.

Your ignorance of Australian history is showing - a bit about White Australia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia

The new Federal Parliament, as one of its first pieces of legislation, passed the Immigration Restriction Act 1901 to "place certain restrictions on immigration and... for the removal... of prohibited immigrants". The act drew on similar legislation in South Africa. Edmund Barton, the prime minister, argued in support of the Bill with the following statement: "The doctrine of the equality of man was never intended to apply to the equality of the Englishman and the Chinaman."

Early drafts of the Act explicitly banned non-Europeans from migrating to Australia but objections from the British government, which feared that such a measure would offend British subjects in India and Britain's allies in Japan, caused the Barton government to remove this wording. Instead, a "dictation test" was introduced as a device for excluding unwanted immigrants. Immigration officials were given the power to exclude any person who failed to pass a 50-word dictation test in any European language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Restriction_Act_1901



If that is true then how do you know for sure the people in those small towns you alleged to have been to are racist?

Reasoning.

With journalist reporting fake news to stir up our enemies like Newsweek and the New York times revealing classified information to terrorist, Reuters doctoring photos in the Israeli/Lebanon conflict and the BBC's so called unbiased reporting a media outlets words mean nothing. Do you have any video of these town council spewing racist comments?

Classified news is most assuredly not fake news - but beyond that I can't be bothered satiating your right wing paranoia.

[jamesrage]

Yes, small towns are boring, but is that a reason to hate them?



Do you have anything to dispute it? I'm still waiting.
Anyone can write something down and claim someone else said it.



You haven't travelled much, have you?

Are you saying the terrorist in the ME let hostages go who claim to be liberal?When some terrorist says he hates Americans do you think it is only conservatives they hate?




Your ignorance of Australian history is showing - a bit about White Australia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Restriction_Act_1901

A English proficiency test is not racist.Banning people from entering the country based on skin color is racist.





Reasoning.



Classified news is most assuredly not fake news - but beyond that I can't be bothered satiating your right wing paranoia.



As I said before with the blatant dishonesty of many journalist,someone writing something down and claiming someone else said it does not count as proof.If you can get video of the councilmen making racist remarks I will by your argument the Tamworth council based their decisions on racism.

[jamesrage]

Neither of them look particularly white, which was one of your excuses for the racism displayed.

I never claimed the town was racist,.I however do claim that if it was white Sudanese they would still not want them.

[Nuke the Oil]

I give up. If you don't think the 'White Australia policy is racist than you don't think anything is racist. If you want to keep on defending racists and bigots, go ahead, but I've had enough of this conversation.

[jamesrage]

I give up. If you don't think the 'White Australia policy is racist than you don't think anything is racist. If you want to keep on defending racists and bigots, go ahead, but I've had enough of this conversation.

When you try to define a English proficiency test as racist,you loose any credibility when it comes to any claims of racism.I do not doubt that many many many years ago Australia was racist.

[Dangerrmouse]

How many many many?

[brainpan]

How many many many?A long time ago in a galaxy far far far away? :jester:

[Eddie]

When you try to define a English proficiency test as racist,you loose any credibility when it comes to any claims of racism.I do not doubt that many many many years ago Australia was racist.

And this shows how willing you are to defend acts of racism as long as it is cloaked in different terminology than strictly racial biological. Racial biology and notions of biological races is just a paranthesis in the history of racism. It was not even used exclusively during its hayday, instead cultural and ethnic markers where far more often used as basis for differential treatment and even genocide. Heck, even the term "race" incorporated cultural traits such as language and customs during this time. The attempt to distinguish between notions of racial and cultural superiority and treatment of individuals based on race and culture is just a conveniant excuse for peddling fundamentally racist notions.

[brainpan]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/01/15/wrefugee15.jpg

I remember seeing a program about refugees from Sudan who had relocated in the states. They didn't like the lifestyle or climate here, and found it almost impossible to adjust. I felt so bad for those guys because they were so homesick and miserable.

Some of these displaced Sudanese are helpless in a modern society because they have never experienced anything like it. It makes them easy targets and I don't find it hard to believe that some intolerant ya-hoos would take advantage of that.

Tamworth probably has problems with racism and it probably also has legitimate concerns about welcoming more refugees. In the final analysis, I think the problem is that humans generally treat each other like crap, so why should Tamworth be different? And no, I'm not defending anyone's bad behavior here, it's just depressing to see what we do to each other for no reason. Somehow seeing the pictures of the victims makes it more real and more sad.

[jamesrage]

And this shows how willing you are to defend acts of racism as long as it is cloaked in different terminology than strictly racial biological.

A English proficiency test is not racist,if I remember correctly some crack pot politician also tried to claim that making English mandatory was racist.Usually these crack pots also try to say that requiring someone to show an ID is also discriminatory.So you'll forgive if I do not take your claims of racism seriously.

[Eddie]

A English proficiency test is not racist,if I remember correctly some crack pot politician also tried to claim that making English mandatory was racist.Usually these crack pots also try to say that requiring someone to show an ID is also discriminatory.So you'll forgive if I do not take your claims of racism seriously.

In itself an english proficiency test is not racist. If construed to keep non-whites or non-western immigrants out of Australia it could certainly be racist. It is all about context. Making enlish mandatory (whatever that means) could be racist, stupid or just common sense. It depends on the context. The same thing with mandatory ID, mandatory ID in EU could be seen as discrimatory depending on how it is enforced. The actual law in itself would not be discrimatory, but the enforcing methods could easily lead to discrimatory results. But to believe that laws have neutral results as long as they apply to everyone is just stupid.

[jamesrage]

In itself an english proficiency test is not racist.

Nice to see you actually admired that.

If construed to keep non-whites or non-western immigrants out of Australia it could certainly be racist. It is all about context. Making enlish mandatory (whatever that means) could be racist, stupid or just common sense. It depends on the context.

The context is in the eye of the beholder.Often times such claims of racism are bogus and the only sole purpose of making bogus claims of racism is to demonize the opposition.For example the pro-illegals call the minutemen vigilante racist who hate immigrints,anyone with a brain in their head knows such claims made by the pro-illegals are bogus.

[Dangerrmouse]

Would anyone with a brain be a grunt in a vigilante guard group "defending" a few yards of a border hundreds of miles long?

[jamesrage]

Would anyone with a brain be a grunt in a vigilante guard group "defending" a few yards of a border hundreds of miles long?

The minute men are not vigilantes,assisting border patrol and putting up fence is not taking the law into your hands.

[Dangerrmouse]

Right.

[jamesrage]

Right.

If they were taking the law into their hands they would be detaining illegals and shooting anyone who crosses the border illegally and plating claymores all along the border.You reporting a break is not vigilantism nor is reporting someone to the authorities you saw on Americas most wanted.

[Dangerrmouse]

Off on another one, but what do swords have to do with this, and what do they plate them with?

[Eddie]

The context is in the eye of the beholder.Often times such claims of racism are bogus and the only sole purpose of making bogus claims of racism is to demonize the opposition.

Sometimes, sure. Not in this case though. I couldn`t care less about the Tamworth council or its people. I hardly view them as opponents in themselves. I do consider racists to be opponents though, which was why I debated the issue.

For example the pro-illegals call the minutemen vigilante racist who hate immigrints,anyone with a brain in their head knows such claims made by the pro-illegals are bogus.

I bet some of the minutemen are racists though, but I don`t know much about them so I can`t really make a judgement of the movement. I have come to understand that the whole immigration debate in the US is full of racist undercurrents though (with notions of cultural supremacy and superiority as well as demonisations of mexicans and mexican americans being rather common).

[jamesrage]

Off on another one, but what do swords have to do with this, and what do they plate them with?
Wrong claymore,This is the one I am talking about.

http://www.chrisabraham.com/claymore-thumb.jpg

[jamesrage]

I bet some of the minutemen are racists though, but I don`t know much about them so I can`t really make a judgement of the movement. I have come to understand that the whole immigration debate in the US is full of racist undercurrents though (with notions of cultural supremacy and superiority as well as demonisations of mexicans and mexican americans being rather common).

The only thing most people in the united states are concerned about with illegal illegal immigration are concerned about the following things

1.10-20 million illegals in the USA who basically just ****ted all over our immigration laws and spitted in the faces of everyone who came here legally.

2.illegals undermine the local workforce by driving down wages and benefits for local workers.

3 .The illegals are a drain on tax payers by committing crimes other than fraud and immigration violations.

4.the illegals add the additional cost to tax payers because we have to pay for their anchor babies to go to school and their hospital bills when they do not pay.

5.The fact that if 10-20 million people invaded our country.
a.If 10-20 million people can invade our country what would stop
another nation from invading before it is too late?
b.how many of those 10-20 million people who are h